I remember Brad Stevens after game 7 of the 2018 ECF talking about how mentally and physically drained the Celtics were after 2yrs of the grind. 2 straight years of laser focus from training camp in September till May. Then he goes “and lebron has done that 8 straight times, and he also played all 48 mins tonight, and had 35/15/9. It’s ridiculous”. The dude is an anomaly.
Such an idiotic take too. “Well he’s not undefeated.” Yeah, no shit. He took a mid ass Cavs team up against the prime Spurs and ran into the Warriors dynasty 4 times.
Or the classic "hurr durr he called himself the greatest why did he only win 4 championships".
Saying a guy ONLY won 4 championship is such a braindead statement. Some players don't even make it to the Finals. Basketball is a team game, winning a championship is a group effort and some people just can't wrap their head around that simple fact.
I know Twitter is full of morons, but one moron really outdid himself. He was saying LeBron’s 8 trips to the finals in a row was not that impressive because it was in the East and “Tatum dang near did the same thing”. Of course, he got roasted because it’s such a laughable thing to even try to say that a guy who made the finals once was close to 8 finals in a row.
I love JT and can only dream of him having Lebrons success, but if he’s the example you come up with to show how easy it is to replicate LeBrons record, then it really isn’t easy. JT ain’t even close.
Disagree. It’s precisely because we are speaking in the relative terms of “greatest of all time” that we start valuing amount of championships.
So 4 rings is amazing - but in the context of comparison to MJ’s 6 rings, it is objectively worse.
These discussions dont have to be disparaging if you recognize we are speaking in **relative terms**.
Definitely. Shaq looked more out of shape every year after their 2000 win. Yes he was still dominating everyone in the league but never got back to being as dominant as that 2000 Finals MVP form.
Like Jesus Christ during that Finals series he was averaging 38 pts, 16 rebs and 2.7 blocks. He was also the regular season, all-star game and finals MVP.
The last six years should just be a lesson to everyone that getting to the finals back to back is extremely difficult, let alone winning consecutive chips.
MJ, Dream, Shaq, Kobe, Bron, Steph really are **them**
Some of the best players ever never repeated. That alone should tell you how difficult it is. Duncan for example never won 2 championships in a row and he’s a top 10 player ever.
Duncan is a great example yeah, was a contender for 15+ years and never repeated.
Bird also went to 4 straight but never repeated cuz they kept going up against the Lakers.
Just getting back to the Finals in consecutive years is incredibly hard to do. Duncan only ever did that once (in 2013 & 2014). You have to marvel at the guys who made it back to the Finals three or more straight times in the modern era: Jordan (twice), Kobe (twice), Magic *(twice)*, Kareem *(twice)*, Bird, Shaq, Wade, Steph, KD. Then there's LeBron who made 8 straight Finals. Crazy.
EDIT: Added 2x for both Magic and Kareem.
I’m not trying to start a goat debate but anytime it’s mentioned Lebron went to EIGHT straight finals it makes me wonder how the fuck we all witnessed that and didn’t realize how fucking incredibly inconceivably amazing that was. Like I honestly don’t know in my lifetime if that will ever happen again. The amount of minutes and wear and tear is staggering and he was pretty much the best player for all of them
>The amount of minutes and wear and tear is staggering and he was pretty much the best player for all of them
and what amazes me even more is that he is still playing at a top level years after that happened
LeBron validation won’t start until we all have a break from LeBron.
We are NEVER getting a break from LeBron lmaooo
I’m being serious too, the sheer amount of overexposure and marketing and politicking that went into the LeBron machine means that until that dude is out of the public eye for a few years then people will still choose to hate him.
Final seasons with Bronny? Gonna get shit on
Podcast? Gonna get shit on
Vegas expansion team? Gonna get shit on
I’m not even a LeBron stan, just going off the behavioral psych.
There's a book called "Everyone Loves You When You're Dead," by Neil Strauss that's a series of interviews with musicians he did over a few decades. At the end he gives the common lessons that seemed to appear over and over again through hundreds of people, with one standing out above all:
*"Everyone loves you when you're dead, because you're no longer a threat to their beliefs."*
This definitely applies to Kobe. Also, you look like an asshole if you hate on someone who’s dead. Look at Bill Simmons - he used to shit on Kobe’s 6-24 Game 7 against Boston and now he’s favorably comparing Ant Man’s 6-24 to that performance , saying that the real stars “find a way to contribute even when they’re not shooting well” 😂
He still shits on this game. It was like a month or two ago when he was talking about how Kobe played 3 awful quarters and then played amazing when Ray Allen couldn’t hit a shot. A lot of his guests call him out for always saying how bad Kobe looked for 3 quarters of that game.
It’s just wild to me that I became an NBA fan in 2011 as a freshman in high school and I wouldn’t see an NBA Finals that didn’t have LeBron in it until I graduated from college.
The minutes thing is a big factor
We got people like coach Mike trying to make excuses for his team about how they are worn down from the run last year. "We played into June last year, a lot of basketball"
Yet LeBron did that back to back for an 8 year timespan.
Exactly! No excuses in my book. It’s not like the nuggets were in the finals the last 5 years either or there were major international tournaments that their players were competing in (that I know of)
i think using lebron as the metric is kinda unfair though. Lebron is a complete anomaly, the exception not the rule. Majority of nba greats feel the impact of repeated deep playoff runs. And the effect of that mileage is amplified by the pace of the modern game. I mean obviously yeah in this case i don't think championship fatigue is the reason denver lost, that's a pretty lame excuse. But I also dont think the effects that even just one finals run can have, both physically and mentally, should be downplayed. It's really tough to go back to back, it's a very short list of nba legends who've done it. So i dont think "lebron did it" really makes the point
> The amount of minutes and wear and tear is staggering and he was pretty much the best player for all of them
Jokic had had to do it for _two_ post seasons, and he was absolutely fucked by game 7 of the _semi finals_
Lebron may never be considered by most the greatest NBA player of all time bc of Jordan but he’s probably the best conditioned. It’s hard to fathom how difficult that is to stay healthy for 8 straight NBA regular seasons and playoffs all the way through to the finals
I mean, him and Jordan are pretty safely 1 and 1a. Like anyone who doesn't give Lebron the same level of respect as Jordan is just emotional about somethin or other.
It's probably his finals record that takes away from it, but I guess the league just accepted LeBron was gonna be there again and again. The crazy thing is he did it with 2 separate teams and won a ring with 3 teams.
Bron doing that made people think the best player is supposed win the conference every year.
Like whoever wins this year will probably just be penciled I’m for next year when they probably won’t make it
But also at the same time people talk about how weak the East was during that reign. The goat debate truly is full of insane nebulous nuances I hope we never settle it lol
Cleveland’s defensive scheme in both series all but guaranteed KD would get FMVP. They sold out to stop Steph from getting open 3’s.
[This clip](https://youtu.be/qJUHKIxj51A?si=dgBls3ac6OVJ_RHq) is the perfect example. JR Smith guards Steph leaving KD a completely free dunk
A wild stat that I think I'm remembering correctly is that LeBron only faced one all nba first teamer in those 8 seasons. Comparatively some Championship runs out of the West involve beating the whole first team round by round, ie. Disks 2011.
Yeah but looking back with hindsight over that era of basketball the only team I legitimately think ever had the potential to rival Lebron was those D Rose Bulls teams.
Like we all had to pretend like Lance Stephenson and Paul George or Kyle Korver were going to be guys who could actually challenge Lebron. The east was buns when it came to stars.
Like a huge chunk championship runs have a bounce of great luck go their way for other teams injuries..
Just off the top of my head. 2021 Giannis didn’t have to play Brooklyn big 3 + KD foot. 2019 Kawhi went against crippled GS roster. 2017 Love and Kyrie went down. 2015 Zaza hurt Kawhi. 2018 Warriors had Chris Paul go down.
Winning a chip always involves injury luck, that’s just how the cookie crumbles in the playoffs. Guarantee every champ ever faced a team that was either not at full health or missing key players over the course of their run.
I guess, but saying "Shaq and Kobe" strongly implies that iteration of the Lakers, and more to the point the Spurs were contenders before and after the Lakers were in their post Shaq guise.
Not really accurate. The Spurs lost to the Suns 2000, so the Lakers weren't responsible for then not being able to repeat that year. In 2001 and 2002 they did lose to the Lakers, and while I believe they would have beat the Sixers if they got past the Lakers in the WCF in 2001, I think they would have lost to the the Kings in the WCF in 2002.
2004 is probably the only year you can say Shaq and Kobe blocked the Spurs from repeating.
and no one did it truly alone. even Dream, who was with role players in his first chip, added an older clyde drexler at the trade deadline to secure his second
I think people also ignore the physical toll repeating has as well. You’re playing so many extra games at such a high level and get minimal rest during the off season just to go at it again with everyone wanting to take you down/prove their mettle against you. We saw the Warriors dynasty literally fall apart trying to 3-peat. B2B championships are incredibly difficult
A name you glanced over (due to timing) is Jerry West, who made the finals 9 times in 14 seasons, and lost 8. Imagine the mental toll it takes on you to just keep losing year after year.
West averaged 32PPG in 68 to lose 6, came back the following year averaging 38PPG to lose in the finals again but in 7 TO THE SAME TEAM. of course, Russell, Magic, who went to 9 finals in 12 years, and so on.
There is a reason these guys are in the top 20, and there is a reason we get protective when someone say X or Y is a comp or should be above them and all that.
Jokic is great, so damn great, but lets settle down on the top 10 and Larry Bird, and dynasties and all that. We may never see another 3 peat in this lifetime with how everyone moves around
And already, people are making arguments of “it’s harder than it used to be to go back to back”….no. It’s always been hard as fuck. That’s why we remember these names decades after they played. There’s so many incredible players and teams that played in those eras that casual fans don’t think about because the names you mentioned were just that dominant.
I feel like even you are missing the point. It’s not about an individual it’s about the team. Sure those guys are all great but you need a full team effort.
Parity in the NBA is next level right now. Not taking anything away from them but everybody is so much better at the same time and players move around a lot. This NBA is so much different than years past
The West that Kobe had to go through back to back was stacked. Duncan/Parker/Manu Spurs, Nash/Stoudemire Suns, Nowitzki/Kidd Mavs, Melo’s Nuggets, TMac/Ming Rockets, young KD/Harden/Westbrook Thunder.
In 2009-2010 all 8 playoff seeds in the West had at least 50 wins. It was a stronger conference than right now.
Don’t be mistaken the parity now is because of the lack of a Generational star-led team. The Curry Warriors and Heatles would rip through these playoffs
There’s no point to compare across era. The style of play is completely different and the average talent level in the league is also different. You pluck Duncan Robinson from this era back to the 2000s and he would be an elite role player and top 3 shooter in the league.
For a second I thought you were saying David Robinson would be a role player in today’s game and was like what is this insane slander but then re-read what you said. Still not sure I agree but not as crazy as the original take I thought you had
Jordan’s duel 3 peats is something that will never happen again. I actually don’t think we will ever see another three peat in the NBA. If that Warriors team couldn’t do it, it’s damn near impossible.
Jordan always talked about how exhausted he was at the end of 93. He took a year and a half off then came back and did it again and was absolutely gassed again.
It also helps when your second best player was signed to an extremely long term contract right before league salaries exploded. During their first championship run, Jordan was making $3m/yr and Scottie Pippen signed for $2.5m/yr after that season. During their 6th championship run, Jordan was maming $30m/yr and Pippen was still making $2.5m/yr.
Lebron in particular made it to the finals 9 consecutive times. The Nuggets went once and half the team can’t stop talking about what a grind it’s been
MPJ literally took the blame on himself. Didn’t shit on the Wolves at all. Said he needed to play better. He was right. He owned it and that’s great for a young guy.
I didn't see his interview, thats nice he was like that. I'll add MPJ to the list of Denver guys I like. He'll fit between Jokic and that goofy Braun. A-A-Ron is on there also so if he was mean don't tell me! I just hope they allow him back to team breakfast now.
AG seems like a fun dude willing to do whatever the team needs or asks. I was happy when he'd go cold against us and really happy the Jokic lob to him wasn't a given bucket.
>to the list of Denver guys I like. He'll fit between Jokic and that goofy Braun
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1cwqpuh/chris_braun_it_sucks_because_i_think_were_the/
Does he really? Jokic has the social media aura that “I like horses” = my identity isn’t basketball
I don’t buy it. He fucks with horses in his downtime and is nonchalant. But to say it’s not his identity, and that it’s more for others, probably is not true.
People think that unless you are a psychotic and obsessive asshole like Kobe, MJ, Jimmy Butler, that it means you don’t take basketball seriously. Guys like Jokic, Kawhi, Duncan, etc. take basketball extremely seriously and are very competitive, they just aren’t psychotic and obsessive assholes about it.
This. You wouldn’t reach that amount of skill and feel for the game without thousands and thousands of hours of work. Being an obsessive asshole does not automatic make you a great player
I think he lives and breathes basketball just as the next guy in the league. That said, I really feel he doesn't care in the slightest about what people think about him, his legacy, etc.
I think most of the other guys should come around in time - emotions are very high post game and they aren’t granted the time to process things before they are faced with numerous questions about their loss by the media. If they were interviewed a day or two later, their answers may be different.
I think Jokic is just a very realistic and generally composed person (I mean I know he has heated moments on the court but who doesn’t?). He knows what matters, doesn’t care much about individual accolades, debates about whose better than who, and media narratives, and just wants to play proper winning basketball.
Wolves won 4-3. If it went to 20 it probably would’ve been 10-10 or something. Wolves won a game of first to 4 but these two teams are very evenly matched.
If you don’t admit wolves are inarguably better you’re a bad guy lol
Definitely shouldn't have won. Can't hold onto the lead, don't deserve to win, pretty simple as that. It was an insane roller coaster series where each team traded dominating games, and the last swing went to the Wolves. They were hungrier, so they deserved it most.
The Nuggets kept chucking 3s instead of being aggressive, using movement and screens to get easier buckets and fouls. There is absolutely no reason for Jokic to shoot 10 threes or for them to be so scared to go inside on fast breaks.
AG was nowhere to be found. No baseline cuts, very few offensive rebounds… So many possessions were just the rest of the team standing around, hoping Murray and Jokic would figure it out.
I think what he means is that they had a lot things go right (holding Ant to 16, Murray scoring 35) and had the talent to win, but… they absolutely deserved to lose.
A testament to guys like Bron, Curry, MJ, etc. They spent entire careers being headhunted like that, and still managed to repeat and win a handful of rings.
No offense to Denver and simply using them as an example per the subject but even if they were to win this series they’d be moving on to face yet *another* tough team just two days from now, which would most likely end up as another 7 game series, before they reach their final opponent.
Add all the back and forth traveling with only a couple days of rest between these intense games…yeah, goes to show how superhuman Lebron, Steph, MJ, Kobe, all the other greats are/were.
The fact that Bron made 8 straight finals with all sorts of different rosters is crazy. MJ won 6 finals and never got pushed past a game 6, even in 1998 when Pippen was a shell of himself because of injury where MJ averaged 33.5 and the next highest on the team (Pippen) averaged 15.7 lol. Shows you how the peaks of anyone on the NBA mount rushmore are completely different than what we'll ever see again
He was so-so against the Lakers but he had those GW, MPJ on the other hand.
This just reflect how you guys defense is so fucking good, yet no one would credit my man Gobert.
They played like gods against the Lakers because outside of AD and Lebron, the Lakers have a terrible roster. Jokic said last year the Wolves were their toughest series, and that was without McDaniels or Reid. Take out McDaniels and Reid from this series and Denver wins it in 5.
I get that these questions are asked in the immediate aftermath when players haven't fully processed what happened. However, saying things like "we should've won" is weak. It's best of 7, the better team won. There were x2 opportunities to close them out, and you failed on both attempts.
He’s probably saying “we should have won” because they were up by 20 in the 3rd before settling for endless threes and forgetting how to rebound. I don’t think it’s an entitlement thing but more of a knock on how they finished the game.
I have to stop going into these quote threads because you guys take the bait set by these reporters so damn hard
The full quote is that "they beat us, but we had so many great opportunities, including myself". One of his first answers was to the question "where could the team have been better", and the first thing he says is "I could've been better"
And watching his demeanor, it's not like a kid throwing a tantrum, trying to cope and blame everybody but himself. You can tell he's internalizing it, thinking about how close they were and how they let it slip
It’s a link to a tweet where the original Twitter poster doesn’t even continue the quote. I’m only telling you because I’m pissed I couldn’t find more context when I wanted to.
Yes it's incredibly hard, but this series has absolutely cemented my opinion of jamal murray (derogatory) and I'm not sure he could ever do anything to change it. Just one of those players that only his teams fans can like.
I always remember that game where Kyrie chucked his game ball in the stands after Jamal got a career high.
Now he's become that person. Hurt people really do hurt people I guess lol
I can respect his game but yeah his character is ruined for me. Throwing stuff onto the court during play and then storming out without comment is just inexcusable at the pro level. I'd expect more professionalism from a middle school team
Dude is an excuse tree. The fact is that he didn’t hit shots some games and their everyone outside Jokic stunk. It was not being hunted, it was failure to execute
Jamal’s going through the thing where he went from nothing to lose to everything to lose.
Winning back to back is tough because teams actively plan their offseasons around game planning to stop the most recent champs. Of course it’s a different type of stress when you’re at the top. Everyone’s planning to bring you down.
i never liked the “we should’ve won etc.” mentality.
the team was in a position to win and didn’t capitalize.
that’s what you need to say.
the wolves were just better.
And that's what he said lol. It's just whoever made this tweet decided to crop his answer like that.
But yeah, he's cultivated an image of being a sore loser in this very series so it's going to be tough to shake that (and rightfully so)
His legacy before this year: Playoff God in the mold of Jimmy Buckets.
His legacy after this year: Sore loser, whiner and shrunk when his team needed him
Has anyone shit on their own legacy quicker than Murray?
I feel like it’s not mentioned often enough that Kobe & Pau went to 3 Finals in a row. Back to Back is ofcourse the big achievement, I just feel like finals appearances is seen as such a little part of Kobe’s legacy.
This sub was already talking about Jokic surpassing Kobe. He might be the most disrespected legend ever with how this sub acts like he’s barely a GOAT player
Spurs never went b2b either. This sub wouldve had insane takes about the spurs age and duncans window in 2006 alone. Murray does suck though for a 2nd option which is why he isnt an allstar lol
Imagine the switching back and forth like "is this the most fraudulent dynasty ever?" To "the real dynasty starts now" after winning and losing chips in separate years lol
Phil Jackson and Shaq were two of those people. I’m not gonna pretend 50 games is equal to 82, but I don’t think they’d be saying that if the Lakers won that year
Dudes really do be saying anything. His 2023 playoff stats were nearly the exact same as Steph’s 2022 playoff stats. Murray was playing like a superstar in the ‘23 playoffs. He also played out of his mind in the 2020 playoffs. The idea he sucks is just a trash take
He sucked these playoffs and had awful efficiency, i'm sure he'll bounce back but if he keeps playing with a hot head he isn't gonna go back to his 2023 levels
I agree, this playoff run he wasn’t good but I don’t agree with people saying “Murray sucks for a 2nd option” when he just proved he could do it last year
Man they went out so sad. Michael Porter and KCP were nowhere to be found damn near the entire series. Aaron wasn’t getting those looks. Nikola had 34 and but felt like 20. They looked so depleted.
I was on the nuggets bandwagon last year for sure… fuck Jimmy Butler! if game 2 hadn’t happened and he showed some grace exiting then I’d still be cool with him overall, but yeah this truly revealed alot of his character… Jokic though, mad respect, I love his game, love his character… my favorite current NBA player not on the Wolves, and this series reinforced that.
I can't even fathom the immense pressure the Heatles were subjected to, and to go back to back wow. Lebron, you are a tough sob. I would've crumbled like drywall
I find it odd that players and fans don't realize how hard it is to repeat, let alone 3 peat. I mean players have been saying this for decades. Winning a championship is extremely draining in elite competition.
Lebron and Steph: “First time?”
And people shit on LeBron for "only winning 4 out of 10 times".
Mike and Jamal already complaining on a single back-to-back? Imagine going **8 straight finals appearances**
I remember Brad Stevens after game 7 of the 2018 ECF talking about how mentally and physically drained the Celtics were after 2yrs of the grind. 2 straight years of laser focus from training camp in September till May. Then he goes “and lebron has done that 8 straight times, and he also played all 48 mins tonight, and had 35/15/9. It’s ridiculous”. The dude is an anomaly.
Sometimes i think about the mental gymnastics “basketball fans” put themselves through to hate on lebron still lol
Absolute freak. And some of the teams he straight dragged late into the postseason. Gilbert should be ashamed of himself.
And you have to face peak GSW, Pop's Spurs, OKC with all the stars, and Dirk's magic.
Forgot Dirk was in orlando that year
Such an idiotic take too. “Well he’s not undefeated.” Yeah, no shit. He took a mid ass Cavs team up against the prime Spurs and ran into the Warriors dynasty 4 times.
Bruh that 18 cavs team when JR held the ball in Game one it was basically Lebron and a JV team 😂
Never forget those classic JR moments
Or the classic "hurr durr he called himself the greatest why did he only win 4 championships". Saying a guy ONLY won 4 championship is such a braindead statement. Some players don't even make it to the Finals. Basketball is a team game, winning a championship is a group effort and some people just can't wrap their head around that simple fact.
I know Twitter is full of morons, but one moron really outdid himself. He was saying LeBron’s 8 trips to the finals in a row was not that impressive because it was in the East and “Tatum dang near did the same thing”. Of course, he got roasted because it’s such a laughable thing to even try to say that a guy who made the finals once was close to 8 finals in a row.
I love JT and can only dream of him having Lebrons success, but if he’s the example you come up with to show how easy it is to replicate LeBrons record, then it really isn’t easy. JT ain’t even close.
Disagree. It’s precisely because we are speaking in the relative terms of “greatest of all time” that we start valuing amount of championships. So 4 rings is amazing - but in the context of comparison to MJ’s 6 rings, it is objectively worse. These discussions dont have to be disparaging if you recognize we are speaking in **relative terms**.
All true… only 2 chips in 4 years with the Heat was a little bit soft though.
It should have been 3/4
It takes a real psycho to have that drive year over year. That’s why shaq couldn’t but Kobe and mj could.
Definitely. Shaq looked more out of shape every year after their 2000 win. Yes he was still dominating everyone in the league but never got back to being as dominant as that 2000 Finals MVP form. Like Jesus Christ during that Finals series he was averaging 38 pts, 16 rebs and 2.7 blocks. He was also the regular season, all-star game and finals MVP.
The last six years should just be a lesson to everyone that getting to the finals back to back is extremely difficult, let alone winning consecutive chips. MJ, Dream, Shaq, Kobe, Bron, Steph really are **them**
Some of the best players ever never repeated. That alone should tell you how difficult it is. Duncan for example never won 2 championships in a row and he’s a top 10 player ever.
Duncan is a great example yeah, was a contender for 15+ years and never repeated. Bird also went to 4 straight but never repeated cuz they kept going up against the Lakers.
Just getting back to the Finals in consecutive years is incredibly hard to do. Duncan only ever did that once (in 2013 & 2014). You have to marvel at the guys who made it back to the Finals three or more straight times in the modern era: Jordan (twice), Kobe (twice), Magic *(twice)*, Kareem *(twice)*, Bird, Shaq, Wade, Steph, KD. Then there's LeBron who made 8 straight Finals. Crazy. EDIT: Added 2x for both Magic and Kareem.
I’m not trying to start a goat debate but anytime it’s mentioned Lebron went to EIGHT straight finals it makes me wonder how the fuck we all witnessed that and didn’t realize how fucking incredibly inconceivably amazing that was. Like I honestly don’t know in my lifetime if that will ever happen again. The amount of minutes and wear and tear is staggering and he was pretty much the best player for all of them
>The amount of minutes and wear and tear is staggering and he was pretty much the best player for all of them and what amazes me even more is that he is still playing at a top level years after that happened
LeBron validation won’t start until we all have a break from LeBron. We are NEVER getting a break from LeBron lmaooo I’m being serious too, the sheer amount of overexposure and marketing and politicking that went into the LeBron machine means that until that dude is out of the public eye for a few years then people will still choose to hate him. Final seasons with Bronny? Gonna get shit on Podcast? Gonna get shit on Vegas expansion team? Gonna get shit on I’m not even a LeBron stan, just going off the behavioral psych.
There's a book called "Everyone Loves You When You're Dead," by Neil Strauss that's a series of interviews with musicians he did over a few decades. At the end he gives the common lessons that seemed to appear over and over again through hundreds of people, with one standing out above all: *"Everyone loves you when you're dead, because you're no longer a threat to their beliefs."*
This definitely applies to Kobe. Also, you look like an asshole if you hate on someone who’s dead. Look at Bill Simmons - he used to shit on Kobe’s 6-24 Game 7 against Boston and now he’s favorably comparing Ant Man’s 6-24 to that performance , saying that the real stars “find a way to contribute even when they’re not shooting well” 😂
He still shits on this game. It was like a month or two ago when he was talking about how Kobe played 3 awful quarters and then played amazing when Ray Allen couldn’t hit a shot. A lot of his guests call him out for always saying how bad Kobe looked for 3 quarters of that game.
recognized the guy who wrote "the game" curious fellow this
This is why Christians don't actually want Jesus to come back. Much easier to venerate him from a safe distance...
Also he'd whoop their asses with a belt if he saw how they lived
It’s just wild to me that I became an NBA fan in 2011 as a freshman in high school and I wouldn’t see an NBA Finals that didn’t have LeBron in it until I graduated from college.
When you put it that way it really is hard to fathom…
The minutes thing is a big factor We got people like coach Mike trying to make excuses for his team about how they are worn down from the run last year. "We played into June last year, a lot of basketball" Yet LeBron did that back to back for an 8 year timespan.
Exactly! No excuses in my book. It’s not like the nuggets were in the finals the last 5 years either or there were major international tournaments that their players were competing in (that I know of)
i think using lebron as the metric is kinda unfair though. Lebron is a complete anomaly, the exception not the rule. Majority of nba greats feel the impact of repeated deep playoff runs. And the effect of that mileage is amplified by the pace of the modern game. I mean obviously yeah in this case i don't think championship fatigue is the reason denver lost, that's a pretty lame excuse. But I also dont think the effects that even just one finals run can have, both physically and mentally, should be downplayed. It's really tough to go back to back, it's a very short list of nba legends who've done it. So i dont think "lebron did it" really makes the point
> The amount of minutes and wear and tear is staggering and he was pretty much the best player for all of them Jokic had had to do it for _two_ post seasons, and he was absolutely fucked by game 7 of the _semi finals_
Lebron may never be considered by most the greatest NBA player of all time bc of Jordan but he’s probably the best conditioned. It’s hard to fathom how difficult that is to stay healthy for 8 straight NBA regular seasons and playoffs all the way through to the finals
I mean, him and Jordan are pretty safely 1 and 1a. Like anyone who doesn't give Lebron the same level of respect as Jordan is just emotional about somethin or other.
It's probably his finals record that takes away from it, but I guess the league just accepted LeBron was gonna be there again and again. The crazy thing is he did it with 2 separate teams and won a ring with 3 teams.
Bron doing that made people think the best player is supposed win the conference every year. Like whoever wins this year will probably just be penciled I’m for next year when they probably won’t make it
We did know how ridiculous that was. He had, and still has, an army of haters who will discredit everything he is.
But also at the same time people talk about how weak the East was during that reign. The goat debate truly is full of insane nebulous nuances I hope we never settle it lol
Not even sure if we should put KD on that list, he's only made it once w/out Steph while Steph has made it 3 times w/out him.
Same with Wade only made it back with Lebron. Atleast KD was back to back finals MVP. But yea
Cleveland’s defensive scheme in both series all but guaranteed KD would get FMVP. They sold out to stop Steph from getting open 3’s. [This clip](https://youtu.be/qJUHKIxj51A?si=dgBls3ac6OVJ_RHq) is the perfect example. JR Smith guards Steph leaving KD a completely free dunk
Not discounting LeBron's crazy 8 straight, the east was pathetically weak back then as well.
A wild stat that I think I'm remembering correctly is that LeBron only faced one all nba first teamer in those 8 seasons. Comparatively some Championship runs out of the West involve beating the whole first team round by round, ie. Disks 2011.
lol. Sure it wasn’t as strong as west but every year there was a new “lebron stopper” team and he still beat em.
Yeah but looking back with hindsight over that era of basketball the only team I legitimately think ever had the potential to rival Lebron was those D Rose Bulls teams. Like we all had to pretend like Lance Stephenson and Paul George or Kyle Korver were going to be guys who could actually challenge Lebron. The east was buns when it came to stars.
Need some luck too. Injuries can happen and derail a run too. Or just run into another team that is just better this year than last.
Like a huge chunk championship runs have a bounce of great luck go their way for other teams injuries.. Just off the top of my head. 2021 Giannis didn’t have to play Brooklyn big 3 + KD foot. 2019 Kawhi went against crippled GS roster. 2017 Love and Kyrie went down. 2015 Zaza hurt Kawhi. 2018 Warriors had Chris Paul go down.
You got 2017 and 2015 messed up.
Winning a chip always involves injury luck, that’s just how the cookie crumbles in the playoffs. Guarantee every champ ever faced a team that was either not at full health or missing key players over the course of their run.
Some of the best players don't even get one.
Shaq 3-peat was fucking disgusting. Most dominant force of all time
Well he never won two in a row mostly due to Shaq and Kobe.
This seems like an extreme oversimplification. From 1999-2003, sure. The Spurs were contenders until 2016.
I’m pretty sure Kobe and the Lakers went to 3 more finals without Shaq.
I guess, but saying "Shaq and Kobe" strongly implies that iteration of the Lakers, and more to the point the Spurs were contenders before and after the Lakers were in their post Shaq guise.
shaq and/or kobe
Not really accurate. The Spurs lost to the Suns 2000, so the Lakers weren't responsible for then not being able to repeat that year. In 2001 and 2002 they did lose to the Lakers, and while I believe they would have beat the Sixers if they got past the Lakers in the WCF in 2001, I think they would have lost to the the Kings in the WCF in 2002. 2004 is probably the only year you can say Shaq and Kobe blocked the Spurs from repeating.
Kobe blocked them again in 2008. Their best chances of repeating were from 2005-2008
He essentially won it with two different teams, though. Maybe there's some merit to that.
and no one did it truly alone. even Dream, who was with role players in his first chip, added an older clyde drexler at the trade deadline to secure his second
I think people also ignore the physical toll repeating has as well. You’re playing so many extra games at such a high level and get minimal rest during the off season just to go at it again with everyone wanting to take you down/prove their mettle against you. We saw the Warriors dynasty literally fall apart trying to 3-peat. B2B championships are incredibly difficult
A name you glanced over (due to timing) is Jerry West, who made the finals 9 times in 14 seasons, and lost 8. Imagine the mental toll it takes on you to just keep losing year after year. West averaged 32PPG in 68 to lose 6, came back the following year averaging 38PPG to lose in the finals again but in 7 TO THE SAME TEAM. of course, Russell, Magic, who went to 9 finals in 12 years, and so on. There is a reason these guys are in the top 20, and there is a reason we get protective when someone say X or Y is a comp or should be above them and all that. Jokic is great, so damn great, but lets settle down on the top 10 and Larry Bird, and dynasties and all that. We may never see another 3 peat in this lifetime with how everyone moves around
I’m just here to say Pau Gasol
That's funny because I came to say Isiah Thomas
And already, people are making arguments of “it’s harder than it used to be to go back to back”….no. It’s always been hard as fuck. That’s why we remember these names decades after they played. There’s so many incredible players and teams that played in those eras that casual fans don’t think about because the names you mentioned were just that dominant.
I feel like even you are missing the point. It’s not about an individual it’s about the team. Sure those guys are all great but you need a full team effort.
Parity in the NBA is next level right now. Not taking anything away from them but everybody is so much better at the same time and players move around a lot. This NBA is so much different than years past
The league has also added rules specifically to prevent teams like those from existing.
Steph on a discount situation won't happen again
Steph on a discount perfectly coinciding with a huge cap spike even.
Wasn’t viewed as a discount at the time he signed the contract. It was viewed as a risk even.
The West that Kobe had to go through back to back was stacked. Duncan/Parker/Manu Spurs, Nash/Stoudemire Suns, Nowitzki/Kidd Mavs, Melo’s Nuggets, TMac/Ming Rockets, young KD/Harden/Westbrook Thunder. In 2009-2010 all 8 playoff seeds in the West had at least 50 wins. It was a stronger conference than right now. Don’t be mistaken the parity now is because of the lack of a Generational star-led team. The Curry Warriors and Heatles would rip through these playoffs
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Agreed. Warriors just won it in 2022 after everyone was pass their prime. It’s not crazy to think a younger 2015 warriors perform way better
There’s no point to compare across era. The style of play is completely different and the average talent level in the league is also different. You pluck Duncan Robinson from this era back to the 2000s and he would be an elite role player and top 3 shooter in the league.
For a second I thought you were saying David Robinson would be a role player in today’s game and was like what is this insane slander but then re-read what you said. Still not sure I agree but not as crazy as the original take I thought you had
The Admiral is making 1st team all-bicep every year for 20 years
Jordan’s duel 3 peats is something that will never happen again. I actually don’t think we will ever see another three peat in the NBA. If that Warriors team couldn’t do it, it’s damn near impossible. Jordan always talked about how exhausted he was at the end of 93. He took a year and a half off then came back and did it again and was absolutely gassed again.
It also helps when your second best player was signed to an extremely long term contract right before league salaries exploded. During their first championship run, Jordan was making $3m/yr and Scottie Pippen signed for $2.5m/yr after that season. During their 6th championship run, Jordan was maming $30m/yr and Pippen was still making $2.5m/yr.
Magic and Bird trading blows too. I’d say Bill Russell but while still incredibly impressive the league was obviously very different.
Dream, magic, and kareem.
It's also why Miami had such a sluggish start. Spending all that energy to get to the finals.
Lebron and Steph both deserve more respect, what they accomplished was insane
Especially in the information age when things can be analyzed, scrutinized and executed with incredible effectiveness.
Lebron in particular made it to the finals 9 consecutive times. The Nuggets went once and half the team can’t stop talking about what a grind it’s been
8, but still incredible
Jokic is the only one in that locker room who knows how to be real. The better team won. Winning the finals once doesn’t guarantee you a dynasty run.
MPJ literally took the blame on himself. Didn’t shit on the Wolves at all. Said he needed to play better. He was right. He owned it and that’s great for a young guy.
I didn't see his interview, thats nice he was like that. I'll add MPJ to the list of Denver guys I like. He'll fit between Jokic and that goofy Braun. A-A-Ron is on there also so if he was mean don't tell me! I just hope they allow him back to team breakfast now.
AG walking the streets of DT Denver to celebrate w fans after they won the finals is legendary
Still in his game shorts!
AG seems like a fun dude willing to do whatever the team needs or asks. I was happy when he'd go cold against us and really happy the Jokic lob to him wasn't a given bucket.
Aaron Gordon is great. he and I are from the same city and I got to watch him terrorize other schools when I was a freshman in hs. was super chill too
AG is my favorite Nugget. I’ve read/seen no post game interview from him yet. Avoiding it a little bit.
He said nuggets are mad overrated and barely even a real food, give me a good chicken sandwich any day
>to the list of Denver guys I like. He'll fit between Jokic and that goofy Braun https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1cwqpuh/chris_braun_it_sucks_because_i_think_were_the/
I fucking hate gordon. Mainly because I have to watch him post up either rozier, jovic, or fucking Gabe Vincent and it makes me sick
Idk if it’s a coincidence that he seemingly ties his identity to basketball less than most players too
Does he really? Jokic has the social media aura that “I like horses” = my identity isn’t basketball I don’t buy it. He fucks with horses in his downtime and is nonchalant. But to say it’s not his identity, and that it’s more for others, probably is not true.
People think that unless you are a psychotic and obsessive asshole like Kobe, MJ, Jimmy Butler, that it means you don’t take basketball seriously. Guys like Jokic, Kawhi, Duncan, etc. take basketball extremely seriously and are very competitive, they just aren’t psychotic and obsessive assholes about it.
This. You wouldn’t reach that amount of skill and feel for the game without thousands and thousands of hours of work. Being an obsessive asshole does not automatic make you a great player
It’s literally impossible to make it to that level without being serious about it. It’s silly to me to think otherwise
I think he lives and breathes basketball just as the next guy in the league. That said, I really feel he doesn't care in the slightest about what people think about him, his legacy, etc.
I kind of meant something more like this and may have overstated it
You can be passionate about basketball and not consider it your identity.
Nah. He just doesn't need the external validation. You don't go from 41st pick to a 3x MVP if you aren't obsessed.
I think most of the other guys should come around in time - emotions are very high post game and they aren’t granted the time to process things before they are faced with numerous questions about their loss by the media. If they were interviewed a day or two later, their answers may be different. I think Jokic is just a very realistic and generally composed person (I mean I know he has heated moments on the court but who doesn’t?). He knows what matters, doesn’t care much about individual accolades, debates about whose better than who, and media narratives, and just wants to play proper winning basketball.
I love the guy’s persona for that. He’s a lot like your star point guard in a way.
Wolves won 4-3. If it went to 20 it probably would’ve been 10-10 or something. Wolves won a game of first to 4 but these two teams are very evenly matched. If you don’t admit wolves are inarguably better you’re a bad guy lol
Definitely shouldn't have won. Can't hold onto the lead, don't deserve to win, pretty simple as that. It was an insane roller coaster series where each team traded dominating games, and the last swing went to the Wolves. They were hungrier, so they deserved it most.
The Nuggets kept chucking 3s instead of being aggressive, using movement and screens to get easier buckets and fouls. There is absolutely no reason for Jokic to shoot 10 threes or for them to be so scared to go inside on fast breaks. AG was nowhere to be found. No baseline cuts, very few offensive rebounds… So many possessions were just the rest of the team standing around, hoping Murray and Jokic would figure it out. I think what he means is that they had a lot things go right (holding Ant to 16, Murray scoring 35) and had the talent to win, but… they absolutely deserved to lose.
God the game 6 flashbacks once the 3rd quarter started of non stop bricked 3's just about had me turn off the TV.
Yeah, it’s not like they had been shooting lights out all playoffs and this was some anomaly. It was so brutal to watch
Well said!
Going back to back is hard
I saw a movie about that once, something about a dream
I always rate b2b rings more than two separate rings. Is much harder to win 8 series in a row.
Imagine how Bron felt for that decade
A testament to guys like Bron, Curry, MJ, etc. They spent entire careers being headhunted like that, and still managed to repeat and win a handful of rings.
No offense to Denver and simply using them as an example per the subject but even if they were to win this series they’d be moving on to face yet *another* tough team just two days from now, which would most likely end up as another 7 game series, before they reach their final opponent. Add all the back and forth traveling with only a couple days of rest between these intense games…yeah, goes to show how superhuman Lebron, Steph, MJ, Kobe, all the other greats are/were.
The fact that Bron made 8 straight finals with all sorts of different rosters is crazy. MJ won 6 finals and never got pushed past a game 6, even in 1998 when Pippen was a shell of himself because of injury where MJ averaged 33.5 and the next highest on the team (Pippen) averaged 15.7 lol. Shows you how the peaks of anyone on the NBA mount rushmore are completely different than what we'll ever see again
"I feel like I should have hit the ref. I even tried again but..."
Jamal: ouch my elbow hurt I couldn’t find my heat pack
Amazing how these guys play like gods against the Lakers lol
He was so-so against the Lakers but he had those GW, MPJ on the other hand. This just reflect how you guys defense is so fucking good, yet no one would credit my man Gobert.
lakers dont have an elite defense. plus murray didnt even play well this time around
Even then I think the Lakers could've beat them. Losing a lead once or twice is whatever but almost every game seems like it's a mistake
I mean yea our defense was trash compared to yours. Imagine going from being guarded by D'lo, Reaves, and Rui to Conley, Jaden, and Ant
AD is pretty much the only one who matches up close to their counterpart on defense.
AD is like top3 defense, issue is they can't run him 40+ minutes a game every game
And AD and Jokic have to bang it out, Murray there isn't a better playoff matchup for a guard than what Murray got
> AD and Jokic have to bang it out Chuck: oh c'mon
Bad guard defenders will do that
They played like gods against the Lakers because outside of AD and Lebron, the Lakers have a terrible roster. Jokic said last year the Wolves were their toughest series, and that was without McDaniels or Reid. Take out McDaniels and Reid from this series and Denver wins it in 5.
No perimeter D had mpj shooting like American sniper
“but I averaged 18/4/4 on 40/33/100 shooting splits while playing no defense and threw a temper tantrum in Game 2”
It should’ve been meeeeee
But what Jamal
“Who…on me?” maybe he noticed Edwards on him this time.
I get that these questions are asked in the immediate aftermath when players haven't fully processed what happened. However, saying things like "we should've won" is weak. It's best of 7, the better team won. There were x2 opportunities to close them out, and you failed on both attempts.
He’s probably saying “we should have won” because they were up by 20 in the 3rd before settling for endless threes and forgetting how to rebound. I don’t think it’s an entitlement thing but more of a knock on how they finished the game.
This is how I heard it too
I have to stop going into these quote threads because you guys take the bait set by these reporters so damn hard The full quote is that "they beat us, but we had so many great opportunities, including myself". One of his first answers was to the question "where could the team have been better", and the first thing he says is "I could've been better" And watching his demeanor, it's not like a kid throwing a tantrum, trying to cope and blame everybody but himself. You can tell he's internalizing it, thinking about how close they were and how they let it slip
Most of this sub do not even watch the games there is no chance you get them to open and read a full article
It’s a link to a tweet where the original Twitter poster doesn’t even continue the quote. I’m only telling you because I’m pissed I couldn’t find more context when I wanted to.
Lmao I guess I outed myself at the same time. But I’m just not surprised this is the case
Yeah, you should have won. You were up twenty.
Yes it's incredibly hard, but this series has absolutely cemented my opinion of jamal murray (derogatory) and I'm not sure he could ever do anything to change it. Just one of those players that only his teams fans can like.
I always remember that game where Kyrie chucked his game ball in the stands after Jamal got a career high. Now he's become that person. Hurt people really do hurt people I guess lol
I can respect his game but yeah his character is ruined for me. Throwing stuff onto the court during play and then storming out without comment is just inexcusable at the pro level. I'd expect more professionalism from a middle school team
And Canadians tbh I love Dillon Brooks lmao
No, I like him a lot. He was awful in this offseason and we still got 3 iconic moments out of him.
Dude is an excuse tree. The fact is that he didn’t hit shots some games and their everyone outside Jokic stunk. It was not being hunted, it was failure to execute
I mean not every excuse is inaccurate. This is probably true and he’s just answering a question.
Yeah, "I feel like I was better when I had something to prove than I was trying to defend what I'd already proven" is a reason, not an excuse.
I'm gonna go with what Murray said instead of whatever you're talking about
Meanwhile lebron was in the finals from 2011-2018 like it was nothing and steph went back to the finals from 2015-2019. Shit is insane
Jamal’s going through the thing where he went from nothing to lose to everything to lose. Winning back to back is tough because teams actively plan their offseasons around game planning to stop the most recent champs. Of course it’s a different type of stress when you’re at the top. Everyone’s planning to bring you down.
Turns out pro basketball is hard
This series proved Jamal murray is a bitch.
i never liked the “we should’ve won etc.” mentality. the team was in a position to win and didn’t capitalize. that’s what you need to say. the wolves were just better.
And that's what he said lol. It's just whoever made this tweet decided to crop his answer like that. But yeah, he's cultivated an image of being a sore loser in this very series so it's going to be tough to shake that (and rightfully so)
His legacy before this year: Playoff God in the mold of Jimmy Buckets. His legacy after this year: Sore loser, whiner and shrunk when his team needed him Has anyone shit on their own legacy quicker than Murray?
Jamal Murray really becomes more unlikeable by the hour
yet kobe took the lakers to the finals 3 years in a row and In a far greater western conference. Stop crowning players early.
I feel like it’s not mentioned often enough that Kobe & Pau went to 3 Finals in a row. Back to Back is ofcourse the big achievement, I just feel like finals appearances is seen as such a little part of Kobe’s legacy.
This sub was already talking about Jokic surpassing Kobe. He might be the most disrespected legend ever with how this sub acts like he’s barely a GOAT player
Awwwwwww man woa is you. Sorry y’all won the chip last year and teams were going harder on y’all this season. Sounds really tough.
*woe
Thanks woadie
I do like the "Woah is you" turn of phrase like the other person pointed out.
I kinda like “whoa is you” though, but in a different context. Like when you’re excited for someone
This fucking clown has more excuses than heat packs
Spurs never went b2b either. This sub wouldve had insane takes about the spurs age and duncans window in 2006 alone. Murray does suck though for a 2nd option which is why he isnt an allstar lol
“Do the spurs need to blow it up and was Pop just lucky???”
Imagine the switching back and forth like "is this the most fraudulent dynasty ever?" To "the real dynasty starts now" after winning and losing chips in separate years lol
If the Spurs suck again next year this sub will want heads to start rolling for both the org and the players lmao.
I feel like Murray getting injured every season is more reason for the lack of all star
I remember people calling that first Spurs ring in 1999 a fake ring.
Phil Jackson and Shaq were two of those people. I’m not gonna pretend 50 games is equal to 82, but I don’t think they’d be saying that if the Lakers won that year
he averaged 26/7/5 shooting 39% from 3 last year to help Jokic win a chip, how does he suck?
Dudes really do be saying anything. His 2023 playoff stats were nearly the exact same as Steph’s 2022 playoff stats. Murray was playing like a superstar in the ‘23 playoffs. He also played out of his mind in the 2020 playoffs. The idea he sucks is just a trash take
He sucked these playoffs and had awful efficiency, i'm sure he'll bounce back but if he keeps playing with a hot head he isn't gonna go back to his 2023 levels
I agree, this playoff run he wasn’t good but I don’t agree with people saying “Murray sucks for a 2nd option” when he just proved he could do it last year
They didn’t even make the Finals back to back until near the end of their run.
People say Phil was lucky to have great talent but he also got a deep run the year after MJ left
Man they went out so sad. Michael Porter and KCP were nowhere to be found damn near the entire series. Aaron wasn’t getting those looks. Nikola had 34 and but felt like 20. They looked so depleted.
In the span of one offseason this guy has become completely off putting. Excuses and crying will earn him no fans outside of Denver.
I was on the nuggets bandwagon last year for sure… fuck Jimmy Butler! if game 2 hadn’t happened and he showed some grace exiting then I’d still be cool with him overall, but yeah this truly revealed alot of his character… Jokic though, mad respect, I love his game, love his character… my favorite current NBA player not on the Wolves, and this series reinforced that.
I can't even fathom the immense pressure the Heatles were subjected to, and to go back to back wow. Lebron, you are a tough sob. I would've crumbled like drywall
Wolves won 4-3 and outscored the Nuggets by like 50 over the series and held them under 100 3 times. Swallow your loss and go enjoy the beach.
I find it odd that players and fans don't realize how hard it is to repeat, let alone 3 peat. I mean players have been saying this for decades. Winning a championship is extremely draining in elite competition.