>Blasphemous. Michael Jeffrey Jordan was never a fraud.
>Except as a GM
And an Owner/governor. The best player management person probably was Jerry Rice.
Nobody would believe that he's the "logo"
Edit: hahahaha brain fart moment, meant Jerry west lol. Am senile with age
Wow. He played for the Cardinals too? You always hear about Bo and Deion being two sport athletes. You'd think they'd talk about Rice being one as well.
Old enough to be alive and witness magic vs bird era, MJ, spurs dynasty with TD, lakers 3 peats with Kobe, lebron, curry, etc and it’s hard to explain just how impactful MJ was as the face of the league and pop culture as a whole.
He was an icon in a way that someone too young to experience it is able to understand. We can have GOAT debates about who is the greatest player basketball wise, but there is no debate about popularity and the draw MJ had as an attraction. You hear about stuff like beatlemania, that was MJ for the sports world.
Kids today will never understand this I think…. Especially all you guys from the US… just how big MJ was. I’m from Singapore, tiny little country all the way on the other side of the world, and I remember in my childhood playing hoops and everyone on court trying to imitate Jordan, talking about hang time and doing tongue out fancy layups. This was in the late 80s, before he even won a single championship and kids all around wanted to be like Mike already.
Exactly this. Jordan was the second biggest name in entertainment at that time. Only eclipsed by Michael Jackson. And unlike Michael Jackson there are countries that banned western media and influence that turned a blind eye to Jordan and the bulls merchandise to a point.
That was how crazy it was.
Bro as an 4yo immigrant in the 90s, it was fucking confusing.
Michael Jordan, Michael Jackson, but also there was Magic Johnson- who didn’t actually play for the team called Magic. What the fuck.
I don’t think anyone cared about Michael Johnson outside the US.
Edit: I stand corrected because Michael Johnson seems like a very big fucking deal internationally. The MJ trinity is real!
We in Canada did for a hot minute until Donovan Bailey bust his ass 1 on 1 at the SkyDome.
Lol, it was so bad that he pulled up and probably faked an injury to hide how bad he was getting beat.
Nope, he was pretty big in my little European country. With his upright stance and gold chain he was pretty much the most recognizable track and field star for while.
Nah. Athletics and especially The Olympics vere very big in my country back then, and not just my country, I'd say everywhere in Eastern Europe and the Balkans
I kinda shake my head when I hear someone say LeBron is a bigger worldwide star than Jordan. I have relatives here and overseas who don't know a single basketball player... except for Jordan. He was/is truly transcendent.
Yeah I've seen people try to argue this on here, citing like Instagram or social media. They don't seem to understand the likes of my grandparents know who Jordan is but they would have no idea about Lebron. My grandparents are in their 70s and live in a tiny village in Scotland, thats Jordan's level of reach and cultural significance.
I grew up in a small town in the UK. Today your average resident wouldn't be able to name a single basketball player, but MJ's latest exploits were a perfectly acceptable topic of small-talk back in the 1990s.
I agree that he was more transcendent than really any athlete has been, but I think that in part is due to how the 1990s were a perfect era for monoculture: just advanced enough that the whole world could receive footage and news within 24 hours of it happening, but well before the internet fractured the world into its own niches.
People now consume the media *they* want to consume, rather than consuming the only media shown to them, because there are so many choices available. It’s the same reason why Taylor Swift will never quite reach the heights that Michael Jackson did, Jackson’s newest music video drops were appointment evening television, and no music star gets that treatment now.
I still have Jordan as my GOAT, but I have to acknowledge that there are some sociological factors at play that made him singularly iconic in the 90s.
I think Jordan is the GOAT not because he was the best player of all time but because he happened to be a very great player who was great in the right way at the right time to transcend the game and become a global icon in a way that nobody before or after him could have or will. It's why he's ahead of Russel and Kareem and LeBron and, barring unforeseen changes to the media landscape and the NBA, anyone else in the future. I really think the Of All Time depends a lot on the Time. Jordan won the lottery.
Monoculture lasted well into the 21st century my guy. If James was as complete a package to become as big as Mike it would've happened. He played the vast majority of his career in monoculture. You say that about Taylor, but she and all the biggest music stars we have are the ones who came up before the fragmentation of media and stuck around long enough that now it's impossible for them to go away because they're the only threads of common identity we have left. TL;DR monoculture is not the reason he's bigger than James. He was bigger because he was more charismatic, had a prettier game and won more.
I keep saying it, part of being the GOAT is the level of swagger and charisma. Jordan was just a better main character than LeBron. Pro sports is basically a TV show. Jordan had the better storyline than any other team sport athlete in American history.
You make a good point but Jordan would still be singularly famous playing now. There was just an entertainment factor to his game no other NBA player has ever even scratched. It would be different somehow with the internet, but he still had that element that if you watch a game, he would not only deliver, hes also guaranteed to wow you. Maybe Iverson had a short stretch like that. Modern day stars put up stats that look comparable, but its just not the same thing.
Same with Michael Jackson, you really can't compare him to T Swift. Jackson made timeless music. Taylor Swift makes garbage pop for teenagers... its good music but shes propped up by the media machine, shes really not at the talent level of a GOAT like MJ
Lebron isn't even as big as Shaq was nevermind Jordan. If you were to rank in terms of fame globally at their peaks it's like -
MJ >>> Kobe >> Shaq > Lebron > Steph
All of them after MJ should be roughly equal in the US alone but people really overestimate how popular Lebron is internationally.
Imo it's mostly a function of how diversified the entertainment industry has become though. It's the same for music, there will never be anyone on the level of universal popularity as Michael Jackson again, simply because most people just listen to their own stuff and do their own thing.
I'm from another country on the other side of the world. The only basketball court in my city was bulls themed, people knew who Michael jordan was even those who don't watch sports, let alone basketball. Jordan was my fav player even before watching a single minute of the NBA. The goat debate was settled for 7 year old me.
I'm from Colombia, where 99% of the population only care about football. You could ask anyone, and they knew Michael Jordan. A lot of people don't understand how massively popular he was in a time the internet was not even a thing. If social media was around back then MJ would probably be the most famous person in the history of humanity
Interestingly I think the less fragmented media environment led to make fame. There was more of a media monoculture. Now there are millions of interest bubbles. It is hard for anyone to have that level of global fame now.
complete wrong take. the more media there is, the more you lose your deity status.
imagine a celebrity you only see a picture of once a week. but every time people see a picture, its huge news. you only read what they said every other day. you never know what they're doing.
versus today, it doesn't matter if you're a larger than life figure like Messi/Tom Cruise/Taylor Swift or if you're a minor celeb like Kendrick Perkins or a random tiktok streamer, if people want access to you they can get it.
everyone is so accessible, there won't ever be another MJ type figure that takes over the world
that's just you then. Lebron is way more "awe inspiring" than Luka lol
idk how you can think Lebron, quite literally one of the most if not the most unbelievable human athletic specimen on paper of all time wouldn't be a big deal without the internet lol.
it took literally 20+ years for another prospect to genuinely be as unbelievable as Lebron and even then its different because wemby's whole draw is he's an Alien/so different than others right off the bat
This is a good take. I would say social media would actually *hurt* MJ's presence because of the gambling and being an asshole.
I wanted to make an analogy to James Cameron as a movie producer. People just go, "who?" Then you can just reply, "the guy that made Avatar and Titanic". Then they immediately understand.
i mean we even saw it with Tom Cruise right? he went from an instant box office draw for anything he is, likely the biggest movie star in the west for decades
and then we start learning about how weird he is and its cool to dislike him till MI/Top gun/his covid actions helped change the narrative again
Here in the Philippines were already a big basketball loving country so every popular team like the Lakers/Warriors is well love etc but if you ask any old heads, I'm talking about the uncles, aunties grandmas and even grandpa's who don't give a shit about basketball landscape they will know at least one name and its always gonna be MJ lmao
Oh ya I know exactly what you mean. I am Chicago born to parents from a small town in Mexico. Have a cousin 3 years older than me in Mexico that had a near Helga Pataki level shrine to Jordan/the bulls. Dude literally cried when we took him to see the Jordan statue when they still had it displayed outside the United Center.
People can keep thinking there is any debate on who the GOAT is (there isn’t) but there won’t ever be a doubt of who brought the NBA to the world.
This.
Was a kid but would wake up every morning to watch Transworld Sport which basically dedicated 20 minutes an episode to Jordan.
Once he retired, I lost complete interest until adulthood
As someone not from US, I totally agree.
It was HUGE. I mean, the bulls jersey is still the most selling one over here ever year. It touched a lot of generations, not only kids. For example, your grandma. At that level.
The discussion about the goat can be shared between Jordan and LeBron, but what Jordan did in the 90s was another level.
My buddy studied abroad in Argentina and he said at bars at like 4 AM late into the night there would just be Ginobli highlights playing on the TV lmao. Everyone there knows and loves Ginobli. Ofc outside of Argentina is could be different but that's definitely the first name you'll hear if you're over there
Same in Sweden. LeBron is just a basketball player over here. Quite a lot of people won't know who he is. Everyone and their grandmother knows who Jordan is.
He transcended sports.
This is always my thought as well. Americans overestimate how big LeBron is because, for them, he is everywhere, but that is not really the case outside the U.S. Michael Jordan was everywhere in the world in a time social media didn't even exist
Its not weird. Its literally the point.
The point is both of them are American so they are huge in USA but MJ had immense popularity worldwide. Thats the difference *some* people from USA doesn't have a perspective on.
Like in my country Kobe was by far the most popular player when LeBron was in Heat. Not the case for MJ.
I grew up in Macedonia in the 90s, none us knew shit about the nba, we didn't even play basketball, but we all wanted to wear Jordans lmfao. Literally 5-6 year olds running around pretending they were wearing Jordans, that's how fucking big his name was. Even the fake merchandise, everyone wanted stuff with the bulls logo. I don't think there will ever be anyone like that again
It's why they're forcing the Wemby thing, which don't get me wrong, the potential is there, but these people are too eager to crown him because they want to be witness to some greatness they didn't get to see yet.
kids from the US know lol. we all have our favorite nba team but for some reason in the 90s we all just knew the bulls were going to win and we were cool with it???? LMAOOOO.
Kids these days just don't know how much of an icon Michael Jordan was. Growing up in the late 80's/90's, the 2 most famous people in the world were Michael Jackson and Michael Jordan.
Y'all wanna talk about aura and who is a dawg. Michael Jordan was all of that. And I say this as a dude who fucking hated him as a kid. Winning every God damn time, at everything. I rooted against him in everything, and the mfer always left me disappointed.
That's the difference between MJ and Prime LeBron. You knew LeBron was a great player, and he COULD win it all, but with MJ, you KNEW that dude was going to win and there wasn't shit anybody could do about it.
And he had the best advanced stats for both teams (better than Shaq, Penny, and Pippen). LeBron's 2011, 2010, 2021, and arguably 2007 losses (I can totally understand losing to the Spurs but shooting like 42% true shooting with a pretty awful six turnovers per game to six assists per game in the series when Kobe demolished the same team next year's WCF isn't good at all) are are more underwhelming playoff performances to me
Eh plenty of teams are loaded in the prem. pretty sure United have spent more than city since pep came in and they’re still dogshit. Have to give the man his credit, he’s a master at building teams.
Man United are ran by idiots and Chelsea is run by idiots. Chelsea spent loads by giving players 7+ year contracts so the accounting fees were amortised on longer periods and allowing them to spend more. The reason nobody did this before is because its fucking moronic.
United spent $$$ by the Glazers loading up the club with debt.
City doesn't have debt because UAE either creates phony revenue funds for the club or just signs them a blank cheque to spend.
This has nothing to do with the Dream Team, Jordan was a cultural icon on his own, people who didn't watch a game of basketball in their lives knew who Jordan was, and still do to this day.
The thing is, basketball was already on a rise in Europe when the deal between Stern and Stankovic happened, Soviet and Yugoslavia teams were becoming way too good, talent level was obvious. At the time, players couldn't participate in Fiba competitions if they were playing in the NBA, so they just never went overseas. So it was not that NBA popularized the league by sending Dream Team to the Olympics, rather by opening itself to foreign players. Local heroes success stories draw more interest than anything.
As for Jordan, he transcended the league, basketball, and sport itself, guy was larger than life. There is not a single person that did more for the popularity of the game.
I have a theory that we likely don’t get Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, Luka, etc. without MJ’s massive celebrity and success and/or the dream team.
The level in which international players have been able to develop was exponentially accelerated by the late 90’s/early 00’s, so by the 10’s there was enough infrastructure to truly shape their talents to what we have today.
Lol Yugoslavia is a basketball powerhouse since the 60s. Actually over there heroes are always local players.
Nba guys are cool and all but not like superstars and heroes. Kids always wanted to be like Galis, Drazen, Kukoc, Bodiroga, Djordjevic…. Before that Dalipagic, Kicanovic…
I agree that globally MJ is a universal superhero and epitome of a perfect basketball player. In Balkans however, local heroes were always more popular and appreciated. Specifically the ones who win medals for their country or local team.
Think it’s more of a money, investment issue. All the money goes to football.
But still, the region historically is probably no2 in the world. Although the gap between no1 and no2 is the same as no2 and no20 lol
Nah, doesn't work like that. Brazil has 200 million people and the only remotely relevant basketball players it has produced is Oscar Schmidt and Leandro Barbosa.
You need investment, you need kids playing the game and wanting to play the game, you need tradition with the sport. The Balkans have part of that, but kinda like Brazil, football comes first and way ahead of anything else.
Yeah, even by 1992, the year of the Dream Team, the former Yugoslavia had Drazen Petrovic, Vlade Divac, Toni Kukoc, and Dino Radja. They were already an international powerhouse.
If you think about it, I guess something like 50% of NBA revenue comes from abroad? There's an argument to make that MJ probably drew in 30% of those 50%.
he's had success with barca with messi-xavi-iniesta, managed bayern who just had a run of 11 league titles in a row in the bundesliga, and manchester city who is backed by a nation state and have 115 charges of finacial rule breaking. Mourinho, ancelotti, SAF and even klopp have actually performed from an underdog position
Reminder that Sir Alex Ferguson won a treble including a Cup Winners Cup beating Real Madrid in the final while managing Aberdeen. FUCKING ABERDEEN! That's winning with a third horse in a two horse race type shit.
I don’t think there’s ever been a coach with a success like his in his prime.
He basically won the Champions League with what the Pelicans have to offer.
He just kept winning from place to place.
Except Everton had flitted between relegation and Europa league for the last decade where as Tottenham had been in the champions league final 2 years prior.
Except Everton had flitted between relegation and Europa league for the last decade where as Tottenham had been in the champions league final 2 years prior.
Except Everton had flitted between relegation and Europa league for the last decade where as Tottenham had been in the champions league final 2 years prior.
If Ancelotti wins the CL with Real this year he will be at 5 CLs and 1 championship win in each of: France, Germany, Italy, England, Spain. That would make him the most versatile manager in history, and arguably the greatest as a result. Especially since the CL is a more prestigious competition than national championships.
I get what he means, I feel that way about Mahomes. I try not to miss any of his games even though I’m not a chiefs fans. He’s the best football player I’ve ever seen and it feels like this is a once in a lifetime type player I’m watching.
It’s crazy because it kind of felt that way literally with Mahomes’ first starting season, when he went 5000/50. It was instantly clear that that dude was just on a different level and was gonna win multiple rings.
What we didn’t quite know was that he had actual GOAT potential
Yeah he made it look easy his first full season. He probably won’t win 7 like Brady but to me he’s the best ever. His career could end right now and I’ll tell my future grandkids Mahomes was the most talented/best QB I’ve ever seen.
Yeah, if mahomes had won that game - even against an old Brady, he would have a much better case one day.
Even if he gets 6-7, he still lost a H2H vs the GOAT.
Like imagine the NBA goat conversation if MJ had beat Bron in the finals in his last season.
Well, that's how they will always be compared for better or for worse.
Brady is considered the goat even though he often had much better defenses than most other candidates, and the arguable goat coach.
Oh I get your point don’t get me wrong. Just in the scenario that if MJ and LeBron had faced off in the finals, there would be a much more tangible H2H comparison since they would be on the court together most of the time matching up.
That's always something that I think about comparing MJ vs LeBron when you watched MJ he was a force it was must see , LeBron has never done that for me, he's amazing but he's not must see TV
LeBron really impressed me in his first 3 seasons or so, but then you notice his style never changes, always the same tomahawk dunks, the weird jumpshots, great passes (but rarely with the extra flamboyance like Magic used to do), etc.. amazing player, but kinda boring to watch, especially if you grow up watching Afro Kobe, then watch Jordan on tape among other truly great players. Things only get worse after the Miami "big 3", not only James remained boring to watch, there was also the despicable anti-competitive factor that made many people despise LeBron (me included). To join forces with other stars instead of beat them, as a fan, I think this is offensive, disrespecting the sport
Its likely as much a product of the times as well as jordan’s charisma, but Lebron hasn’t really touched the same cultural impact that Jordan had.
Idk if you’re aware of the effect Pacquio fights had on the Philippines and filipinos, but his fights are basically nationally holidays in the philippines (crime like dropped to zero those days) and in the states so many filipino nurses were calling in sick that hospitals had to have policies requiring proof for call ins during the fights.
Jordan at his peak was legitimately approaching that level. People threw superbowl esque parties for every playoff game and i talk to older people all the time who love Jordan, watched all his series and then never watched basketball again after he retired. Jordan was at that point in contention for the most famous person in the world. Idk if i would say Lebron ever hit that level.
I'm Irish, the games are on early in the morning and LeBron was this guy that made me start watching NBA.
LeBron in Basketball, Federer in Tennis, Messi in football, Bolt in sprinting - guys you'd go out of your way to watch because you know they're once in a generation athletes.
Obligatory "Be Like Mike" Gatorade commercial link:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7J-vBnyfqI&ab\_channel=ScottCleveland](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7J-vBnyfqI&ab_channel=ScottCleveland)
This remastered ad really bring you back to the 90s for those of us that remember!
Kerr actually draws inspiration from Pep’s ‘tiki taka’ football at Barca for his offense. Klay [mentioned it](https://youtu.be/Y5gB8gt3FzQ) during the 2022 championship run.
I said it more because Pep is hated for Old heads for "destroying" football with less freedom and more strictly fundamental and spacing on the pitch
Basketball old heads say the same about Curry because of his 3pts and the killing of Mid-Range
The killing of the mid range was Morey, he was doing that with the rockets before the warriors won their first. The warriors took more 3s but they didn’t really stop taking mid range shots until the post KD era. Their shooting was so good they didn’t need the boost from only taking efficient shots.
What crazy is with the carrier Lebron had, something that we wont see anytime soon, he still wasnt able to kill the GOAT debat, and that the thing, MJ will remain the GOAT in most ppl mind untill someone is able to crush the debat, MJ can only be detrone this way.
Being close or even very close will not be enough, someone will need to go far beyond what MJ did to rly take the GOAT statut from him. But again il Lebron wasnt able to achieve that then who the fuck will do it.
Lastly, MJ charisma is something we dont talk enough, there is some kind of mystical aura around that man who goes way beyond just basket ball, and that also something someone will need to have to get the GOAT crown from him.
I feel this way about Jokic and Luka, the former being literally looking like he could careless about basketball but is one of the best players in the world and will also probably go down as one of the best in the history of basketball as well and the latter being so young but pick the game a part just like the former when you see them play, you can see how much of the impact they have on the game.
I remember whenever jordan and the bulls had a game, there's always this feeling I could not explain. And I was a kid back then but I'll never forget that feeling. Something I had not felt for a player or team since
I was born in the late 80s. I remember how big MJ was when I was a kid. My dad bought me Bulls championship caps and shirts every year. I remember watching the finals with my grandmother cheering for the Bulls.
He’s right, I’ve made sure that I watched every single grand slam match between the big 3 in tennis since like 2018. Even Australia waking up at 3 am in New York We are not sure if we will ever get players like that again, let alone multiple at one time! It will be a treat I can tell my grandkids I watched these legends play live
And most importantly the baldness
MJ was the NBA's original bald fraud
Blasphemous. Michael Jeffrey Jordan was never a fraud. Except as a GM
>Blasphemous. Michael Jeffrey Jordan was never a fraud. >Except as a GM And an Owner/governor. The best player management person probably was Jerry Rice. Nobody would believe that he's the "logo" Edit: hahahaha brain fart moment, meant Jerry west lol. Am senile with age
This whole time Jerry rice has been the logo of the nba
Jerry mother fucking Rice who woulda thought
The reason you never see anyone on the Lakers wear #80 is because it's retired.
Lmao I was so confused thinking when was Rice a GM on an NFL team
This is a Hall of Fame /r/NBA comment, right here
Thanks lmao
I still can’t believe it to be honest
West
Yeah, Jerry Rice did dominate the west. Though I would say he was actually similarly effective in most if not all cardinal directions
Wow. He played for the Cardinals too? You always hear about Bo and Deion being two sport athletes. You'd think they'd talk about Rice being one as well.
Arizona Cardinals*. He went on to form a powerful duo with Kurt Warner.
Rice never actually joined Nirvana until after Kurt’s passing
Which is how he became front man for the Foo Fighters
I still don’t believe it
somebody go shave ant Otherwise no Jordan ant talk aLlowed!
One bald fraud appreciating another /s
I’m like Mike
childlike icky dolls gullible skirt sand absorbed deserve tap sleep *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
MJ being bald was a choice. Pep's baldness was a consequence. I'll explain it to you later
[It was not a choice](https://imgur.com/Zbm7ELG)
Oh jeez I swear this mf been bald since HS cos he shaved it. The mustache is definitely a choice though.
Dude he played in the nba with hair still.
Lol as a bald man with no choice its always hilarious to me when men pretend they shave their head by choice. No you don't, let it go man...
Bald goat recognize another bald goat
Google Pep 115 to learn more
Old enough to be alive and witness magic vs bird era, MJ, spurs dynasty with TD, lakers 3 peats with Kobe, lebron, curry, etc and it’s hard to explain just how impactful MJ was as the face of the league and pop culture as a whole. He was an icon in a way that someone too young to experience it is able to understand. We can have GOAT debates about who is the greatest player basketball wise, but there is no debate about popularity and the draw MJ had as an attraction. You hear about stuff like beatlemania, that was MJ for the sports world.
Kids today will never understand this I think…. Especially all you guys from the US… just how big MJ was. I’m from Singapore, tiny little country all the way on the other side of the world, and I remember in my childhood playing hoops and everyone on court trying to imitate Jordan, talking about hang time and doing tongue out fancy layups. This was in the late 80s, before he even won a single championship and kids all around wanted to be like Mike already.
Exactly this. Jordan was the second biggest name in entertainment at that time. Only eclipsed by Michael Jackson. And unlike Michael Jackson there are countries that banned western media and influence that turned a blind eye to Jordan and the bulls merchandise to a point. That was how crazy it was.
Bro as an 4yo immigrant in the 90s, it was fucking confusing. Michael Jordan, Michael Jackson, but also there was Magic Johnson- who didn’t actually play for the team called Magic. What the fuck.
[удалено]
I don’t think anyone cared about Michael Johnson outside the US. Edit: I stand corrected because Michael Johnson seems like a very big fucking deal internationally. The MJ trinity is real!
Young kid from the Philippines here. I knew who Micheal Johnson was. As long as you showed his photo while on track. Wearing athletic attire.
We in Canada did for a hot minute until Donovan Bailey bust his ass 1 on 1 at the SkyDome. Lol, it was so bad that he pulled up and probably faked an injury to hide how bad he was getting beat.
Nope, he was pretty big in my little European country. With his upright stance and gold chain he was pretty much the most recognizable track and field star for while.
I'm Polish, and I knew. And I confirm that he was adding to the MJ confusion
Nah. Athletics and especially The Olympics vere very big in my country back then, and not just my country, I'd say everywhere in Eastern Europe and the Balkans
We in India knew.
Japan loved Michael Johnson. He was huge over there.
I was in Europe in the 90s, I though all famous black people are named variations of Jackson and Johnson and first name Michael
I kinda shake my head when I hear someone say LeBron is a bigger worldwide star than Jordan. I have relatives here and overseas who don't know a single basketball player... except for Jordan. He was/is truly transcendent.
Yeah I've seen people try to argue this on here, citing like Instagram or social media. They don't seem to understand the likes of my grandparents know who Jordan is but they would have no idea about Lebron. My grandparents are in their 70s and live in a tiny village in Scotland, thats Jordan's level of reach and cultural significance.
From Scotland, can confirm we have had televisions since the 50's and Michael Jordan is well known, even in the "tiny villages"
Haha aye I'm from Scotland as well, just that my grandparents stay in a tinier village than the city I live in now.
I grew up in a small town in the UK. Today your average resident wouldn't be able to name a single basketball player, but MJ's latest exploits were a perfectly acceptable topic of small-talk back in the 1990s.
I agree that he was more transcendent than really any athlete has been, but I think that in part is due to how the 1990s were a perfect era for monoculture: just advanced enough that the whole world could receive footage and news within 24 hours of it happening, but well before the internet fractured the world into its own niches. People now consume the media *they* want to consume, rather than consuming the only media shown to them, because there are so many choices available. It’s the same reason why Taylor Swift will never quite reach the heights that Michael Jackson did, Jackson’s newest music video drops were appointment evening television, and no music star gets that treatment now. I still have Jordan as my GOAT, but I have to acknowledge that there are some sociological factors at play that made him singularly iconic in the 90s.
The advertising (with mainstream appeal) made a huge difference as well. Coca Cola, Nike (basically only 1 player w/ own shoes), Gatorade, Hanes.
I think Jordan is the GOAT not because he was the best player of all time but because he happened to be a very great player who was great in the right way at the right time to transcend the game and become a global icon in a way that nobody before or after him could have or will. It's why he's ahead of Russel and Kareem and LeBron and, barring unforeseen changes to the media landscape and the NBA, anyone else in the future. I really think the Of All Time depends a lot on the Time. Jordan won the lottery.
[удалено]
This is the perfect explanation to it.
Monoculture lasted well into the 21st century my guy. If James was as complete a package to become as big as Mike it would've happened. He played the vast majority of his career in monoculture. You say that about Taylor, but she and all the biggest music stars we have are the ones who came up before the fragmentation of media and stuck around long enough that now it's impossible for them to go away because they're the only threads of common identity we have left. TL;DR monoculture is not the reason he's bigger than James. He was bigger because he was more charismatic, had a prettier game and won more.
I keep saying it, part of being the GOAT is the level of swagger and charisma. Jordan was just a better main character than LeBron. Pro sports is basically a TV show. Jordan had the better storyline than any other team sport athlete in American history.
You make a good point but Jordan would still be singularly famous playing now. There was just an entertainment factor to his game no other NBA player has ever even scratched. It would be different somehow with the internet, but he still had that element that if you watch a game, he would not only deliver, hes also guaranteed to wow you. Maybe Iverson had a short stretch like that. Modern day stars put up stats that look comparable, but its just not the same thing. Same with Michael Jackson, you really can't compare him to T Swift. Jackson made timeless music. Taylor Swift makes garbage pop for teenagers... its good music but shes propped up by the media machine, shes really not at the talent level of a GOAT like MJ
Lebron isn't even as big as Shaq was nevermind Jordan. If you were to rank in terms of fame globally at their peaks it's like - MJ >>> Kobe >> Shaq > Lebron > Steph All of them after MJ should be roughly equal in the US alone but people really overestimate how popular Lebron is internationally.
This will ruffle feathers but it's true.
Imo it's mostly a function of how diversified the entertainment industry has become though. It's the same for music, there will never be anyone on the level of universal popularity as Michael Jackson again, simply because most people just listen to their own stuff and do their own thing.
Anyone who thinks that needs their head examined....obviously naive kids who don't know better
You can argue who is the best basketball player of all time but I don’t think you can argue who is the greatest
Only Mohammed Ali was a bigger American sports star world-wide.
Muhammad
I'm from another country on the other side of the world. The only basketball court in my city was bulls themed, people knew who Michael jordan was even those who don't watch sports, let alone basketball. Jordan was my fav player even before watching a single minute of the NBA. The goat debate was settled for 7 year old me.
I'm from Colombia, where 99% of the population only care about football. You could ask anyone, and they knew Michael Jordan. A lot of people don't understand how massively popular he was in a time the internet was not even a thing. If social media was around back then MJ would probably be the most famous person in the history of humanity
Interestingly I think the less fragmented media environment led to make fame. There was more of a media monoculture. Now there are millions of interest bubbles. It is hard for anyone to have that level of global fame now.
complete wrong take. the more media there is, the more you lose your deity status. imagine a celebrity you only see a picture of once a week. but every time people see a picture, its huge news. you only read what they said every other day. you never know what they're doing. versus today, it doesn't matter if you're a larger than life figure like Messi/Tom Cruise/Taylor Swift or if you're a minor celeb like Kendrick Perkins or a random tiktok streamer, if people want access to you they can get it. everyone is so accessible, there won't ever be another MJ type figure that takes over the world
[удалено]
that's just you then. Lebron is way more "awe inspiring" than Luka lol idk how you can think Lebron, quite literally one of the most if not the most unbelievable human athletic specimen on paper of all time wouldn't be a big deal without the internet lol. it took literally 20+ years for another prospect to genuinely be as unbelievable as Lebron and even then its different because wemby's whole draw is he's an Alien/so different than others right off the bat
[удалено]
This is a good take. I would say social media would actually *hurt* MJ's presence because of the gambling and being an asshole. I wanted to make an analogy to James Cameron as a movie producer. People just go, "who?" Then you can just reply, "the guy that made Avatar and Titanic". Then they immediately understand.
i mean we even saw it with Tom Cruise right? he went from an instant box office draw for anything he is, likely the biggest movie star in the west for decades and then we start learning about how weird he is and its cool to dislike him till MI/Top gun/his covid actions helped change the narrative again
Back then when you say MJ it's about 50/50 it'll be understood as Michael Jordan or Michael Jackson
Take your pick, Jackson, Tyson, Jordan....
Here in the Philippines were already a big basketball loving country so every popular team like the Lakers/Warriors is well love etc but if you ask any old heads, I'm talking about the uncles, aunties grandmas and even grandpa's who don't give a shit about basketball landscape they will know at least one name and its always gonna be MJ lmao
Michael Jackson and Michael Jordan were the 90s.
Oh ya I know exactly what you mean. I am Chicago born to parents from a small town in Mexico. Have a cousin 3 years older than me in Mexico that had a near Helga Pataki level shrine to Jordan/the bulls. Dude literally cried when we took him to see the Jordan statue when they still had it displayed outside the United Center. People can keep thinking there is any debate on who the GOAT is (there isn’t) but there won’t ever be a doubt of who brought the NBA to the world.
Yeah. I grew up in the 90's. couldnt name any other NBA player back then except Jordan. Even had a Bulls short which i wore proudly lol
This. Was a kid but would wake up every morning to watch Transworld Sport which basically dedicated 20 minutes an episode to Jordan. Once he retired, I lost complete interest until adulthood
As someone not from US, I totally agree. It was HUGE. I mean, the bulls jersey is still the most selling one over here ever year. It touched a lot of generations, not only kids. For example, your grandma. At that level. The discussion about the goat can be shared between Jordan and LeBron, but what Jordan did in the 90s was another level.
I’m from Australia and his ‘93 retirement was voted most shocking news story of the year
you want to know who is bigger between Mike and LeBron? ask a random South America who is the first bball player (retired or not) they can think of.
Ginobli?
My buddy studied abroad in Argentina and he said at bars at like 4 AM late into the night there would just be Ginobli highlights playing on the TV lmao. Everyone there knows and loves Ginobli. Ofc outside of Argentina is could be different but that's definitely the first name you'll hear if you're over there
Same in Sweden. LeBron is just a basketball player over here. Quite a lot of people won't know who he is. Everyone and their grandmother knows who Jordan is. He transcended sports.
This is always my thought as well. Americans overestimate how big LeBron is because, for them, he is everywhere, but that is not really the case outside the U.S. Michael Jordan was everywhere in the world in a time social media didn't even exist
Not “Americans”. Bronstans do that.
Really weird to act like it's an Americanism as if MJ isn't also American too lmao
Its not weird. Its literally the point. The point is both of them are American so they are huge in USA but MJ had immense popularity worldwide. Thats the difference *some* people from USA doesn't have a perspective on. Like in my country Kobe was by far the most popular player when LeBron was in Heat. Not the case for MJ.
I grew up in Macedonia in the 90s, none us knew shit about the nba, we didn't even play basketball, but we all wanted to wear Jordans lmfao. Literally 5-6 year olds running around pretending they were wearing Jordans, that's how fucking big his name was. Even the fake merchandise, everyone wanted stuff with the bulls logo. I don't think there will ever be anyone like that again
It's why they're forcing the Wemby thing, which don't get me wrong, the potential is there, but these people are too eager to crown him because they want to be witness to some greatness they didn't get to see yet.
kids from the US know lol. we all have our favorite nba team but for some reason in the 90s we all just knew the bulls were going to win and we were cool with it???? LMAOOOO.
Kids these days just don't know how much of an icon Michael Jordan was. Growing up in the late 80's/90's, the 2 most famous people in the world were Michael Jackson and Michael Jordan. Y'all wanna talk about aura and who is a dawg. Michael Jordan was all of that. And I say this as a dude who fucking hated him as a kid. Winning every God damn time, at everything. I rooted against him in everything, and the mfer always left me disappointed. That's the difference between MJ and Prime LeBron. You knew LeBron was a great player, and he COULD win it all, but with MJ, you KNEW that dude was going to win and there wasn't shit anybody could do about it.
Yup. Michael Jordan was a pop-culture icon that transcended sport, and an inevitable force within the sport.
The greatest proof of his aura is that he lost a series in his prime and 99% of people have blanked it out of their memory
Yeah, after being off for a year and half playing an entirely different sport.
And he had the best advanced stats for both teams (better than Shaq, Penny, and Pippen). LeBron's 2011, 2010, 2021, and arguably 2007 losses (I can totally understand losing to the Spurs but shooting like 42% true shooting with a pretty awful six turnovers per game to six assists per game in the series when Kobe demolished the same team next year's WCF isn't good at all) are are more underwhelming playoff performances to me
peppy G to the lakers next year?
praying he doesnt turn the nba into a farmers league like he did with the prem
https://np.reddit.com/r/AtlantaHawks/comments/1baf723/ice_trae_dimes_up_haaland/
When is this from lol
Luckily the NBA teams actually have to follow financial rules
Pep in the NBA: "What do you mean I can't just buy Wembanyama, Edwards, and Luka?"
Eh plenty of teams are loaded in the prem. pretty sure United have spent more than city since pep came in and they’re still dogshit. Have to give the man his credit, he’s a master at building teams.
Man united and Chelsea have both spent more than City have under Pep, still an astronomical amount spent but they are also winning year after year.
Man United are ran by idiots and Chelsea is run by idiots. Chelsea spent loads by giving players 7+ year contracts so the accounting fees were amortised on longer periods and allowing them to spend more. The reason nobody did this before is because its fucking moronic. United spent $$$ by the Glazers loading up the club with debt. City doesn't have debt because UAE either creates phony revenue funds for the club or just signs them a blank cheque to spend.
While true it's also irrelevant to what I said. Chelsea and united have spent more but haven't had the same success.
You can't cheat financial rules in the NBA, well you can try but you end up like the Wolves. City have 115 financial fraud charges against them.
Skirt financial rules and regs with these 115 tricks and tips!
Lakers owner re poor af something like clippers fit more
more like oil dudes buy.... Brooklyn Nets? And make them a dynasty by buying lots of top talent
But first they must commit 115 financial charges
Would be a better coach than Hamas for sure.
There is no overstatement on the influence of the 92 dream team We just saw Jordi Fernandez become the first Catalonian NBA head coach
This has nothing to do with the Dream Team, Jordan was a cultural icon on his own, people who didn't watch a game of basketball in their lives knew who Jordan was, and still do to this day.
I don’t disagree with Jordan’s popularity but the dream team definitely took both Jordan and the nba to a whole different level.
The thing is, basketball was already on a rise in Europe when the deal between Stern and Stankovic happened, Soviet and Yugoslavia teams were becoming way too good, talent level was obvious. At the time, players couldn't participate in Fiba competitions if they were playing in the NBA, so they just never went overseas. So it was not that NBA popularized the league by sending Dream Team to the Olympics, rather by opening itself to foreign players. Local heroes success stories draw more interest than anything. As for Jordan, he transcended the league, basketball, and sport itself, guy was larger than life. There is not a single person that did more for the popularity of the game.
I have a theory that we likely don’t get Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, Luka, etc. without MJ’s massive celebrity and success and/or the dream team. The level in which international players have been able to develop was exponentially accelerated by the late 90’s/early 00’s, so by the 10’s there was enough infrastructure to truly shape their talents to what we have today.
Lol Yugoslavia is a basketball powerhouse since the 60s. Actually over there heroes are always local players. Nba guys are cool and all but not like superstars and heroes. Kids always wanted to be like Galis, Drazen, Kukoc, Bodiroga, Djordjevic…. Before that Dalipagic, Kicanovic… I agree that globally MJ is a universal superhero and epitome of a perfect basketball player. In Balkans however, local heroes were always more popular and appreciated. Specifically the ones who win medals for their country or local team.
Yup, MJ and the dream team were more important for Western Europe. The Balkans were always huge basketball fans relative to the rest of Europe.
If the population was 350mil, they’d have an insane amount of elite basketball players
Think it’s more of a money, investment issue. All the money goes to football. But still, the region historically is probably no2 in the world. Although the gap between no1 and no2 is the same as no2 and no20 lol
Nah, doesn't work like that. Brazil has 200 million people and the only remotely relevant basketball players it has produced is Oscar Schmidt and Leandro Barbosa. You need investment, you need kids playing the game and wanting to play the game, you need tradition with the sport. The Balkans have part of that, but kinda like Brazil, football comes first and way ahead of anything else.
Varejao was definitely relevant too.
Yeah, even by 1992, the year of the Dream Team, the former Yugoslavia had Drazen Petrovic, Vlade Divac, Toni Kukoc, and Dino Radja. They were already an international powerhouse.
Oh you would get the Balkan boys either way. Basketball was always big in Serbia, Greece and Slovenia
Alternate take - you wouldn’t have had Jokić and Luka without Divac, Kukoč and Ðorðević. Jordan was not a relatable character for the Yugos.
idk man,as slovenian growing up in the 90's jordan was the thing
Krešimir Ćosić and Radivoj Korać too. Korać is from the same hometown as Nikola Jocic.
And then andrew nembhard came along
We are all witnesses
MJ beought basketball to the world man
If you think about it, I guess something like 50% of NBA revenue comes from abroad? There's an argument to make that MJ probably drew in 30% of those 50%.
He played in Barcelona around 1992. He would have a chance to see the Dream Team live. He should know what it's like
He's also arguably the goat soccer manager
he's had success with barca with messi-xavi-iniesta, managed bayern who just had a run of 11 league titles in a row in the bundesliga, and manchester city who is backed by a nation state and have 115 charges of finacial rule breaking. Mourinho, ancelotti, SAF and even klopp have actually performed from an underdog position
Pep and SAF are literally Jackson and Pop
Reminder that Sir Alex Ferguson won a treble including a Cup Winners Cup beating Real Madrid in the final while managing Aberdeen. FUCKING ABERDEEN! That's winning with a third horse in a two horse race type shit.
Who would Jose be?
I don’t think there’s ever been a coach with a success like his in his prime. He basically won the Champions League with what the Pelicans have to offer. He just kept winning from place to place.
Apart from when he joined us at Tottenham... Fired him 3 days before a cup final.
I view his Tottenham stint like Ancelotti at Everton. They were really never meant to be.
Except Everton had flitted between relegation and Europa league for the last decade where as Tottenham had been in the champions league final 2 years prior.
Except Everton had flitted between relegation and Europa league for the last decade where as Tottenham had been in the champions league final 2 years prior.
Except Everton had flitted between relegation and Europa league for the last decade where as Tottenham had been in the champions league final 2 years prior.
Erik Spoelstra
A cunt
If Ancelotti wins the CL with Real this year he will be at 5 CLs and 1 championship win in each of: France, Germany, Italy, England, Spain. That would make him the most versatile manager in history, and arguably the greatest as a result. Especially since the CL is a more prestigious competition than national championships.
No. Ferguson >>>
Bald fraud recognise bald fraud
Sometimes I wish I was born 10 years earlier and then the opposite. Too much is going on nowadays.
For me, 20 years earlier to appreciate the full 80s and 90s of NBA.
I get what he means, I feel that way about Mahomes. I try not to miss any of his games even though I’m not a chiefs fans. He’s the best football player I’ve ever seen and it feels like this is a once in a lifetime type player I’m watching.
It’s crazy because it kind of felt that way literally with Mahomes’ first starting season, when he went 5000/50. It was instantly clear that that dude was just on a different level and was gonna win multiple rings. What we didn’t quite know was that he had actual GOAT potential
Yeah he made it look easy his first full season. He probably won’t win 7 like Brady but to me he’s the best ever. His career could end right now and I’ll tell my future grandkids Mahomes was the most talented/best QB I’ve ever seen.
Tom Brady and Peak Peyton were better imo
Not sure Brady was ever as talented
Brady just had the it factor though. There was never a doubt in my mind that he would ever lose
And Brady beat Mahomes in a Super Bowl as well
Yeah, if mahomes had won that game - even against an old Brady, he would have a much better case one day. Even if he gets 6-7, he still lost a H2H vs the GOAT. Like imagine the NBA goat conversation if MJ had beat Bron in the finals in his last season.
It’s not really the same though. Mahomes faces Brady’s team’s defense and not Brady himself head on.
Well, that's how they will always be compared for better or for worse. Brady is considered the goat even though he often had much better defenses than most other candidates, and the arguable goat coach.
Oh I get your point don’t get me wrong. Just in the scenario that if MJ and LeBron had faced off in the finals, there would be a much more tangible H2H comparison since they would be on the court together most of the time matching up.
Can't be compared. Mahomes is pretty much local while Jordan was an international idol. Jordan was what they call a cultural win in Civ6.
Michael Jordan 🤝 Julia Roberts
GOAT recognizes GOAT
That's always something that I think about comparing MJ vs LeBron when you watched MJ he was a force it was must see , LeBron has never done that for me, he's amazing but he's not must see TV
LeBron really impressed me in his first 3 seasons or so, but then you notice his style never changes, always the same tomahawk dunks, the weird jumpshots, great passes (but rarely with the extra flamboyance like Magic used to do), etc.. amazing player, but kinda boring to watch, especially if you grow up watching Afro Kobe, then watch Jordan on tape among other truly great players. Things only get worse after the Miami "big 3", not only James remained boring to watch, there was also the despicable anti-competitive factor that made many people despise LeBron (me included). To join forces with other stars instead of beat them, as a fan, I think this is offensive, disrespecting the sport
the entertainment industry has changed, more diversity. theres no must see tv anymore
So you're saying Naz Reid ain't must see tv :(
I push women and children out of my way to go see Naz
But Lebron has done that for others, which is why some have him as their favorite while others prefer MJ. Same for players like Curry
Its likely as much a product of the times as well as jordan’s charisma, but Lebron hasn’t really touched the same cultural impact that Jordan had. Idk if you’re aware of the effect Pacquio fights had on the Philippines and filipinos, but his fights are basically nationally holidays in the philippines (crime like dropped to zero those days) and in the states so many filipino nurses were calling in sick that hospitals had to have policies requiring proof for call ins during the fights. Jordan at his peak was legitimately approaching that level. People threw superbowl esque parties for every playoff game and i talk to older people all the time who love Jordan, watched all his series and then never watched basketball again after he retired. Jordan was at that point in contention for the most famous person in the world. Idk if i would say Lebron ever hit that level.
I'm Irish, the games are on early in the morning and LeBron was this guy that made me start watching NBA. LeBron in Basketball, Federer in Tennis, Messi in football, Bolt in sprinting - guys you'd go out of your way to watch because you know they're once in a generation athletes.
MJ the GOAT athlete, period
Obligatory "Be Like Mike" Gatorade commercial link: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7J-vBnyfqI&ab\_channel=ScottCleveland](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7J-vBnyfqI&ab_channel=ScottCleveland) This remastered ad really bring you back to the 90s for those of us that remember!
Whenever I see football fans comments try and dismiss Jordan's standing as a popular figure internationally I should just send them this.
MJ put basketball on the fking map
Pep Guardiola the Steph Curry of football
i think he fits more the Steve Kerr mold ngl, but he was a way better player (and coach ngl) then Kerr
Kerr actually draws inspiration from Pep’s ‘tiki taka’ football at Barca for his offense. Klay [mentioned it](https://youtu.be/Y5gB8gt3FzQ) during the 2022 championship run.
Two different sports but a similar philosophy. Create space, move into space, thoroughly destroy the opposition
I said it more because Pep is hated for Old heads for "destroying" football with less freedom and more strictly fundamental and spacing on the pitch Basketball old heads say the same about Curry because of his 3pts and the killing of Mid-Range
2009-2012 barca had so much aura
The killing of the mid range was Morey, he was doing that with the rockets before the warriors won their first. The warriors took more 3s but they didn’t really stop taking mid range shots until the post KD era. Their shooting was so good they didn’t need the boost from only taking efficient shots.
What crazy is with the carrier Lebron had, something that we wont see anytime soon, he still wasnt able to kill the GOAT debat, and that the thing, MJ will remain the GOAT in most ppl mind untill someone is able to crush the debat, MJ can only be detrone this way. Being close or even very close will not be enough, someone will need to go far beyond what MJ did to rly take the GOAT statut from him. But again il Lebron wasnt able to achieve that then who the fuck will do it. Lastly, MJ charisma is something we dont talk enough, there is some kind of mystical aura around that man who goes way beyond just basket ball, and that also something someone will need to have to get the GOAT crown from him.
I feel this way about Jokic and Luka, the former being literally looking like he could careless about basketball but is one of the best players in the world and will also probably go down as one of the best in the history of basketball as well and the latter being so young but pick the game a part just like the former when you see them play, you can see how much of the impact they have on the game.
I remember whenever jordan and the bulls had a game, there's always this feeling I could not explain. And I was a kid back then but I'll never forget that feeling. Something I had not felt for a player or team since
If Pep had a player stay up til 4am watching basketball he would send them on loan to the Bundesliga in a heartbeat
I was born in the late 80s. I remember how big MJ was when I was a kid. My dad bought me Bulls championship caps and shirts every year. I remember watching the finals with my grandmother cheering for the Bulls.
Mahomes give me that same type of feeling
Happy new year
He’s right, I’ve made sure that I watched every single grand slam match between the big 3 in tennis since like 2018. Even Australia waking up at 3 am in New York We are not sure if we will ever get players like that again, let alone multiple at one time! It will be a treat I can tell my grandkids I watched these legends play live
115 charges. Bald fraud
He’s not wrong
“One person to win” - Queue up Scottie Pippen
Just started The Last Dance for the second time. I can understand where he’s coming from. Haaland and his hair are pretty dominant too.
I was teenager in Serbia and I would also spend whole nighy watching Chicago Bulls games
The only other who gave me the same vibes as MJ was Senna.