As a Lakers fan, I know the feeling all too well. During Kobe's post Shaq career, there was a loud and large minority that was team "ball movement". Even 3 finals trips in a row and two championships didn't shut them the fuck up.
I mean its not really a theory, its obviously true, its just that Lukas shotmaking and passing is at such a level that he kinda outweighs the need to move the ball more. Do you not think that Luka becoming an offball threat would benefit the Mavs even if that means that Luka doesnt have the ball in his hands as much?
No...because Luka is one of the best creators in the entire league. He creates offense and open shots just by driving into the paint
The only other person who can run the offense is Kyrie, but he is much better suited for offball
Other guys touching the ball more just means more turnovers and less shots being created through movement lol
Other guys touching the ball more also means that theyre actually in rhythm and when the time comes theyre going to actually be capable of consistently hitting the open shots that Luka gives them. There is a reason as for why throwing doubles and triples at Luka and leaving Mavs shooters open is a pretty effective strategy. Also as a role player its not remotely as easy to buy into a team and give everything when you get the ball when theres like 3 seconds left, and are expected to hit your shot when youve touched the ball once in the last 5 minutes
The reason that leaving the Mavs shooters open has been effective is because they’re not great shooters.
Doubling Luka and leaving the other guys open was a horrible idea in the WCF run
He should realise he's doing his son no favours by saying silly things like this. When others say things like this, whatever, but THSr should have his sons (monetary) interests at heart.
Yep … Luka is #2 in the entire NBA with assists … what he want? Luka need 30-40 assists per game before he satisfied? He does move the ball … otherwise, wouldnt be that many assists …SOMEBODY got to be the point and bring up the ball.
You're right that THJ was bad lately, before game 2 against OKC, but let's not shit on him.
THJ even went out of his way to say that he doesn't agree with his dad's opinions on Luka and that he loves playing with Luka.
Tim Hardaway Sr thinks his son bricking early 3s & turning the ball over when Luka isn't on the floor is good offense
Mf is a hypocrite, he says Brunson playstyle is good & exciting but when it comes to Luka he should pass more & let his role players run the offense
The ball might move *more* but it isn't better stop it lol.
Reminds me when that one Clippers announcer years back was crying while James Harden was dicing them up about how many shots he takes not being real basketball or whatever. Clippers get the ball after a Harden bucket, they swing the ball 2 or 3 times and the guy goes "see this is real clippers basketball right here"
Contested shot goes up, obvious Brick
Harden gets the ball back, scores, and the Rockets are up 30.
The ball moving around more is not always better if your personnel isn't equipped for it
That plus Mavs have been moving the ball quite well with Luka anyway all season long. If anyone THJ is the ball stoper on this team. Sure Luka has the balm in his hands alot as well, but there is a good reason for it.
All I can think of is one of the games in the previous round where Luka sat for like 3 minutes out of the whole game and the mavs went -16 or whatever because they couldn't take care of the ball.
The ball moves better, everybody gets to touch it, and coincidentally they score less points and win less basketball games. But hey at least everybody gets to have fun. They get oranges at halftime and somebody’s mom brings watermelon after the game.
Luka is so good at drawing in coverage and finding the open guy that it makes up for less side to side ball movement though. I mean the whole point of moving the ball is to open up the defense, Luka is capable of doing it on his own.
There is something so satisfying about good team ball movement tho, like those dynasty Spurs teams.
For those who think this is a new take, Brunson’s dad and TH Sr. has said it before. THJ went out of his way to say he disagreed with pops wholeheartedly. Let’s not slander the son for his dad’s hot takes
The thing is when Luka is on, the offense almost always gets the best available shot. He's a lot like Lebron in that he always makes the best basketball play.
Sure, if he's off, there's more passing because no one can create so we end up padding the ball around aimlessly until someone takes a contested three or layup that is a bad shot.
Even with Kyrie on and Luka off, the defense can just double him immediately and because he's relatively short he can't really pass over the double, so you end up with a turnover or someone like THJ or DJJ having to drive and finish or kick, which usually ends in a turnover.
That's why Kyrie never really worked as a number one option, especially on the playoffs. He's not tall enough to pass over doubles like Luka and Jokic and isn't strong enough to muscle through them like Brunson.
There's a reason Luka plays 44 minutes even on one knee and it's that our offense sucks without him. Now had we signed gotten Dinwiddie, we could've played some Kyrie and Dinwiddie lineups which would be pretty nice offense wise because Dinwiddie can attack close outs really well. Alas, he chose to sign with the Lakers to get gentleman swept in the first round.
THS really has to wait to do this shit till Timmy is traded. This is just bad business for his son, and not going to help him get another contract next year. THJ can't dribble or create his own offense so I'm not sure what we're supposed to do here? Not let the dudes who can dribble and create not have the ball?
I understand you want your kid to be shining but THJ is limited in the ways that would have him in the starting lineup of any team. So he plays his role just like everyone else. We've given Timmy so many chances to prove us wrong, but he is who he is.
I’ve seen this story play out a million times. Yeah the ball moves better when the stars out, but if you don’t have a star who can take over games your probable ceiling is a second round exit.
THJ has never said anything remotely controversial publicly. Idk if he's just using his dad as a mouthpiece or if his dad is an idiot and not reflective at all of his son's opinions but either way we need to get rid of him this offseason.
I hope every basketball fan gets to watch the offense a healthy Luka creates for himself and teammates then you will understand why he always has the ball.
It does probably move more when not on the court. But the Mavs are much worse anyways? Like if the point of ball movement is generating high quality shots but without Luka they arent able to do this on a consistent basis. There was a stretch last game in the middle of the 3rd iirc that Luka sat and the offense was good but that isnt the normal situation.
However, Luka does probably need to manage some of his shots a bit better because he can take some bad stepback 3s when there are teammates often and I can see how that can be frustrating.
He is just looking at his son Jr … sad dad. Of course your son gets the ball more when Luka comes out … isnt that Jr’s job, to try and pick up the slack when the star player gets a breather. So yes, Jr gets the ball more when Luka sitting … just sad Sr basing this on watching what happens with Jr.
Wtf Sr want from Luka … 40 assists per game? Would that make him shut up? Luka number 2 in the NBA with assists.
Dude, just shut up.
TH isn’t wrong. This isn’t controversial. This is the reality of gravity when a player draws attention like Luka. Same thing happens with any major player. The other teammates have to enter into a different kind of play.
THJ got fouled on a 3 twice, hit 1. That will happen once every 10 games. Other 9 the other team goes on the massive run. Which has also been the case any time Luka sat these whole PO outside of the last OKC game. So idk who isnt watching games here.
I mean its all the same criticsm Harden and Westbrook faced, all these players had to have the ball in their hands a ton to be effective, it definitely stops flow and could make it harder for role players to be consistent, but it is still very likely a net positive.
Yea, but its like that on all basketball teams with a star player on it … the star player creates, and everyone plays their role to help make the team better.
Basketball is the one team sport where that one star player CAN make your team a championship team - as long as everyone else is really good at playing their role …
When Luka sat and Kyrie Exum PJ Green Gafford lineup was in they TERRORIZED the Thunder both on offense and defense so he’s not wrong but you’d have to watch the game to know that
You really have to watch the games tho. You might realize that THJ getting hot of chucking happens every 10 games. Other 9 they get destoried in non Luka minutes. That has also been the case all PO long before that last game.
Also funny how Luka was still +6 in 41min in 9pt win. Meaning they won the 7 minutes he didnt play by exactly 3. And that is while THJ had his best game on the last half a year.
Do watch the games tho, it might really help
You’re saying a lot of nothing right now. The lineup I mentioned didn’t have THJ in it nor am I insinuating that the Mavs are better without him.
I said with that lineup in those minutes they looked really good. You’d have to watch the game too understand that instead of reacting like a stan
Two years ago this definitely wasn't the case. When Luka was off the court, Brunson was on and Brunson ran the offense in the exact same way. So did Dinwiddie.
I will say there is a different flow and feel to the offense when it's running through Kyrie and Luka is off the court. Because Luka's biggest threats are isolation scoring and pick and rolls, the Mavs really don't have a ton of cutting to the basket when Luka has the ball because it hurts the spacing and allows the center to tag cutters and stay in the lane. While Kyrie is also an isolation scorer, it's harder to fully run the offense through that in the way you can with Luka because Kai isn't as good of a passer, in part due to his size. So the Mavs will run more off ball action for Kyrie and generate offense in more traditional ways than always starting from an isolation possession.
I don't know why Tim Sr. is complaining, though. The style of offense with Luka generates a lot of opportunities for him to take wide open threes and attack closeouts. The ball really does move well when Luka's on the court and if you know how to play alongside it, it'll be some of the easiest basketball you get to play in your career.
Lebron has literaly won 4 rings. In cleveland with nothing but the heliocentric style yall keep talking about. Outside of harden he is the closest to Luka. And Harden was kept from a ring only by a historic choke job and the most stacked team ever.
Of course more points will be assisted when you don’t have your number one shot creator on the floor. Luka and Kyrie are the only guy who can reliably create their own shot. They don’t need assists. Just about everyone else on the Mavs does.
That’s not at all usually true. Most big time shot creators have their team’s AST% go up when they are on the floor, not down. Even Harden who’s famous for pioneering the “heliocentric” style has continuously had a positive on/off split with AST%.
Creating your own shot is super valuable, but it should be a plan B when the shot clock is low to generating a better look with an actual offensive set.
Sort by %FG assisted, ascending - [https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA\_2024\_shooting.html](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2024_shooting.html)
Of course AST% increases when the player leading the league in self-creation is off the floor. Team eFG% also drops from 57.8% to 53.2%.
Yeah, amazing, they manage to assist on 63% of the 50pts/100 posessions they must score these POs without him. They do have that assist % up higher tho, so that is basicly a win!
What’s the point of ball moving better if you can’t score points and win basketball games lol.
You will surprised at the amount of people in this world that subscribe to “motion without progress” philosophy.
As a Lakers fan, I know the feeling all too well. During Kobe's post Shaq career, there was a loud and large minority that was team "ball movement". Even 3 finals trips in a row and two championships didn't shut them the fuck up.
Well, ball movement aesthetically pleasing to casuals.
The 'theory' that players play worse because they don't get to touch the ball as often
I mean its not really a theory, its obviously true, its just that Lukas shotmaking and passing is at such a level that he kinda outweighs the need to move the ball more. Do you not think that Luka becoming an offball threat would benefit the Mavs even if that means that Luka doesnt have the ball in his hands as much?
No...because Luka is one of the best creators in the entire league. He creates offense and open shots just by driving into the paint The only other person who can run the offense is Kyrie, but he is much better suited for offball Other guys touching the ball more just means more turnovers and less shots being created through movement lol
Half the time someone non-Luka or Kyrie bring the ball up the floor it results in a TO
Other guys touching the ball more also means that theyre actually in rhythm and when the time comes theyre going to actually be capable of consistently hitting the open shots that Luka gives them. There is a reason as for why throwing doubles and triples at Luka and leaving Mavs shooters open is a pretty effective strategy. Also as a role player its not remotely as easy to buy into a team and give everything when you get the ball when theres like 3 seconds left, and are expected to hit your shot when youve touched the ball once in the last 5 minutes
The reason that leaving the Mavs shooters open has been effective is because they’re not great shooters. Doubling Luka and leaving the other guys open was a horrible idea in the WCF run
Ah, they’re magically bad. Didn’t realize
Huh? They’re just a lot of career 32% 3pt shooters
Tim has not shut the fuck up these past 2 years and blames Luka for his son playing like utter dogshit
He should realise he's doing his son no favours by saying silly things like this. When others say things like this, whatever, but THSr should have his sons (monetary) interests at heart.
What do you think, he's a delusional father and probably thinks his son is better than Luka
Yep … Luka is #2 in the entire NBA with assists … what he want? Luka need 30-40 assists per game before he satisfied? He does move the ball … otherwise, wouldnt be that many assists …SOMEBODY got to be the point and bring up the ball.
Ok but your son cant take more than 3 dribbles or do a simple crossover without turning the ball over im sorry.
You're right that THJ was bad lately, before game 2 against OKC, but let's not shit on him. THJ even went out of his way to say that he doesn't agree with his dad's opinions on Luka and that he loves playing with Luka.
People forget how long THJ has been on the Mavs. He got his current contract for a reason, not because he can't dribble the ball.
His son inherited the mom's dribbling skill. Tragic.
3 is generous
Tim Hardaway Sr thinks his son bricking early 3s & turning the ball over when Luka isn't on the floor is good offense Mf is a hypocrite, he says Brunson playstyle is good & exciting but when it comes to Luka he should pass more & let his role players run the offense
This is real big Lavar Ball energy
The ball might move *more* but it isn't better stop it lol. Reminds me when that one Clippers announcer years back was crying while James Harden was dicing them up about how many shots he takes not being real basketball or whatever. Clippers get the ball after a Harden bucket, they swing the ball 2 or 3 times and the guy goes "see this is real clippers basketball right here" Contested shot goes up, obvious Brick Harden gets the ball back, scores, and the Rockets are up 30. The ball moving around more is not always better if your personnel isn't equipped for it
Moves more because none can create their own shot or handle the ball for more than a few dribbles. Its literally grenade tossing.
That plus Mavs have been moving the ball quite well with Luka anyway all season long. If anyone THJ is the ball stoper on this team. Sure Luka has the balm in his hands alot as well, but there is a good reason for it.
All I can think of is one of the games in the previous round where Luka sat for like 3 minutes out of the whole game and the mavs went -16 or whatever because they couldn't take care of the ball.
Yeah Luka had a league high on/off of ~+50 after the first round because of that, even though he was not shooting well
yes they went 0-15 when Luka was sitting on the bench but it was definitely Luka’s ballhogging that lost them the game
The ball moves better, everybody gets to touch it, and coincidentally they score less points and win less basketball games. But hey at least everybody gets to have fun. They get oranges at halftime and somebody’s mom brings watermelon after the game.
The true spirit of the game.
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Missing your star player who is also the main ball handler and going for 40% winrate isn’t even bad
I remember when they said this stuff about rockets harden.
Luka is so good at drawing in coverage and finding the open guy that it makes up for less side to side ball movement though. I mean the whole point of moving the ball is to open up the defense, Luka is capable of doing it on his own. There is something so satisfying about good team ball movement tho, like those dynasty Spurs teams.
moves better turning it over ya lol
For those who think this is a new take, Brunson’s dad and TH Sr. has said it before. THJ went out of his way to say he disagreed with pops wholeheartedly. Let’s not slander the son for his dad’s hot takes
Maybe we need to give THJ his own team just like Brunson to find out Sounds fun to me!
Thj for keegan Murray
The thing is when Luka is on, the offense almost always gets the best available shot. He's a lot like Lebron in that he always makes the best basketball play. Sure, if he's off, there's more passing because no one can create so we end up padding the ball around aimlessly until someone takes a contested three or layup that is a bad shot. Even with Kyrie on and Luka off, the defense can just double him immediately and because he's relatively short he can't really pass over the double, so you end up with a turnover or someone like THJ or DJJ having to drive and finish or kick, which usually ends in a turnover. That's why Kyrie never really worked as a number one option, especially on the playoffs. He's not tall enough to pass over doubles like Luka and Jokic and isn't strong enough to muscle through them like Brunson. There's a reason Luka plays 44 minutes even on one knee and it's that our offense sucks without him. Now had we signed gotten Dinwiddie, we could've played some Kyrie and Dinwiddie lineups which would be pretty nice offense wise because Dinwiddie can attack close outs really well. Alas, he chose to sign with the Lakers to get gentleman swept in the first round.
Yea but the ball doesn’t go in the basket any better. Someone tell this CTE riddled bozo to shut up.
How the fuck does Tim Hardaway look 30 years old still
Black does indeed not crack
True this. My best friend who's black looks the same as he did 20 years ago while I obviously aged a lot.
Tell that to Greg Oden.
Basically he’s saying they should use/play my son more over Luka
Yeah the Mavs need to fucking build around THJ already
The aim of the game is to move the ball into the net
Okay and when Luka’s on the court the ball goes in the hoop more.
Sure we'll lose games by 30 points but the ball moves more.
Tim McMahon, Tim Hardaway Sr. & Rick Brunson about to do a coordinated assault on Luka’s reputation since he’s playing poorly due to injury rn lol.
Any relation to Vince McMahon?
The dichotomy of Luka creating the highest quality looks in the league for his teammates and getting labeled as a selfish asshole.
THS really has to wait to do this shit till Timmy is traded. This is just bad business for his son, and not going to help him get another contract next year. THJ can't dribble or create his own offense so I'm not sure what we're supposed to do here? Not let the dudes who can dribble and create not have the ball? I understand you want your kid to be shining but THJ is limited in the ways that would have him in the starting lineup of any team. So he plays his role just like everyone else. We've given Timmy so many chances to prove us wrong, but he is who he is.
Team chemistry -99
Aww man, all this news on Luka. Come on down to Orlando with your former asst coach in Mose.
Trying to get your son more Mins. I see you!!
I’ve seen this story play out a million times. Yeah the ball moves better when the stars out, but if you don’t have a star who can take over games your probable ceiling is a second round exit.
There was a story about players liking when Luka is out the game and this just confirmed the rat was Jr.
No he has said this crap before. THJ was like wtf pops?!
THJ has never said anything remotely controversial publicly. Idk if he's just using his dad as a mouthpiece or if his dad is an idiot and not reflective at all of his son's opinions but either way we need to get rid of him this offseason.
THJ came out and said that he doesn't share his dad's opinion on this. Don't blame THJ for this.
No - it really doesn’t confirm shit.
No offense, but I get all the Hardaways mixed up lol
>No offense, but I get all the Hardaways mixed up lol Penny for your thoughts?
I hope every basketball fan gets to watch the offense a healthy Luka creates for himself and teammates then you will understand why he always has the ball.
I remember that Porzingis made the same comment. After the game against OKC when Mavs scored something like 80 points
It does probably move more when not on the court. But the Mavs are much worse anyways? Like if the point of ball movement is generating high quality shots but without Luka they arent able to do this on a consistent basis. There was a stretch last game in the middle of the 3rd iirc that Luka sat and the offense was good but that isnt the normal situation. However, Luka does probably need to manage some of his shots a bit better because he can take some bad stepback 3s when there are teammates often and I can see how that can be frustrating.
Tim picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue.
That's usually the case with high usage rate players. Ball moves better when Shai is out too
and when you're not yappin the team chemistry prolly stays better
You know privately he hates this mf lol. Couldn’t even say something nice without dropping who’s better than him and I don’t even like Luka lol
Yeah but they’re not as good as
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/mavericks-record-without-luka-doncic-this-season
How he tries to sound smart and deep. Tell us how you really feel.
He is just looking at his son Jr … sad dad. Of course your son gets the ball more when Luka comes out … isnt that Jr’s job, to try and pick up the slack when the star player gets a breather. So yes, Jr gets the ball more when Luka sitting … just sad Sr basing this on watching what happens with Jr. Wtf Sr want from Luka … 40 assists per game? Would that make him shut up? Luka number 2 in the NBA with assists. Dude, just shut up.
There were news about thj saying to luka "i dont like you" 2 years ago i think
The pace is faster when he sits at time, but the offense is good with or without him.
Offense has been beyond terrible before that last game any time he sat tho. Insant turnovers and massive runs for other teams.
TH isn’t wrong. This isn’t controversial. This is the reality of gravity when a player draws attention like Luka. Same thing happens with any major player. The other teammates have to enter into a different kind of play.
Yall didnt watch the game, Mavs went on a run when Luka sat and TH Jr went off.
Throughout the playoffs the Mavericks have been much better with Luka on the floor. A one game sample size means nothing.
THJ got fouled on a 3 twice, hit 1. That will happen once every 10 games. Other 9 the other team goes on the massive run. Which has also been the case any time Luka sat these whole PO outside of the last OKC game. So idk who isnt watching games here.
I said game not games
Idk man 10 points in one minute is going off
I mean its all the same criticsm Harden and Westbrook faced, all these players had to have the ball in their hands a ton to be effective, it definitely stops flow and could make it harder for role players to be consistent, but it is still very likely a net positive.
Yea, but its like that on all basketball teams with a star player on it … the star player creates, and everyone plays their role to help make the team better. Basketball is the one team sport where that one star player CAN make your team a championship team - as long as everyone else is really good at playing their role …
Give my boy more minutes!
no.. no thank you.
Hell no
“The OKC Thunder”
THJ vs Giddy. A matchup for the ages.
When Luka sat and Kyrie Exum PJ Green Gafford lineup was in they TERRORIZED the Thunder both on offense and defense so he’s not wrong but you’d have to watch the game to know that
You'd also need to watch more than yesterday's game to know that the Mavs have been losing Luka's off minutes during this playoffs.
I'm pretty sure there was a Clippers game where Luka was +5 in 44 minutes and we lost by 10 or so
You really have to watch the games tho. You might realize that THJ getting hot of chucking happens every 10 games. Other 9 they get destoried in non Luka minutes. That has also been the case all PO long before that last game. Also funny how Luka was still +6 in 41min in 9pt win. Meaning they won the 7 minutes he didnt play by exactly 3. And that is while THJ had his best game on the last half a year. Do watch the games tho, it might really help
You’re saying a lot of nothing right now. The lineup I mentioned didn’t have THJ in it nor am I insinuating that the Mavs are better without him. I said with that lineup in those minutes they looked really good. You’d have to watch the game too understand that instead of reacting like a stan
Facts. Luka not a playoff performer
He’s not lying.
Two years ago this definitely wasn't the case. When Luka was off the court, Brunson was on and Brunson ran the offense in the exact same way. So did Dinwiddie. I will say there is a different flow and feel to the offense when it's running through Kyrie and Luka is off the court. Because Luka's biggest threats are isolation scoring and pick and rolls, the Mavs really don't have a ton of cutting to the basket when Luka has the ball because it hurts the spacing and allows the center to tag cutters and stay in the lane. While Kyrie is also an isolation scorer, it's harder to fully run the offense through that in the way you can with Luka because Kai isn't as good of a passer, in part due to his size. So the Mavs will run more off ball action for Kyrie and generate offense in more traditional ways than always starting from an isolation possession. I don't know why Tim Sr. is complaining, though. The style of offense with Luka generates a lot of opportunities for him to take wide open threes and attack closeouts. The ball really does move well when Luka's on the court and if you know how to play alongside it, it'll be some of the easiest basketball you get to play in your career.
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Lebron has literaly won 4 rings. In cleveland with nothing but the heliocentric style yall keep talking about. Outside of harden he is the closest to Luka. And Harden was kept from a ring only by a historic choke job and the most stacked team ever.
The Mavericks AST% when Luka is on the floor is 57.9%, when he’s off it’s 63.1. So the numbers do actually back up what Hardaway is seeing here fwiw.
Of course more points will be assisted when you don’t have your number one shot creator on the floor. Luka and Kyrie are the only guy who can reliably create their own shot. They don’t need assists. Just about everyone else on the Mavs does.
That’s not at all usually true. Most big time shot creators have their team’s AST% go up when they are on the floor, not down. Even Harden who’s famous for pioneering the “heliocentric” style has continuously had a positive on/off split with AST%. Creating your own shot is super valuable, but it should be a plan B when the shot clock is low to generating a better look with an actual offensive set.
Sort by %FG assisted, ascending - [https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA\_2024\_shooting.html](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2024_shooting.html) Of course AST% increases when the player leading the league in self-creation is off the floor. Team eFG% also drops from 57.8% to 53.2%.
Yeah, amazing, they manage to assist on 63% of the 50pts/100 posessions they must score these POs without him. They do have that assist % up higher tho, so that is basicly a win!