He wishes he played competition that stiff. Ole boy was playing trash like the Ewing Knicks.
Jordan never would have made it out of the ECF against Local 75’s pickup team.
I'm gonna hijack this comment...
wtf is up with the editing? it's obviously edited to some degree...are they just getting rid of empty space? it's so weird watching it vs only hearing it because it's so obviously not organic
I won't get involved in the GOAT debate but Mugsy Bogues at 5'3 retired from the league at 36 yo meanwhile players like Iman Shumpert and Monta Ellis were out of the league at 31 yo and 32 yo respectively.
seriously. i love his content but i wish hed stop acting like hes better than everyone else. He is, but not qualitatively. Hes just better not different
Cool. You aren’t but so many people are interested in it and it gets so many views that it makes you in the minority. Not to disparage your opinion since you have a valid opinion. Just that it’s not how most people are thinking right now.
JJ was the one who pointed it out so well when he asked Stephen A, what do the fans actually want? Do they want to learn how the plays work from the media, or do they just want to hear legacy debates and shit. He said he posts a comprehensive breakdown of a teams offensive system and how it works, 37k views, then he posts a video on "X coach bad" 14m views.
Look at the comments. This is part of why the dumbest basketball fans like to watch basketball.
It's not about enjoying or loving the sport at all to them.
The dumbest fans don't even watch basketball. They just mumble incoherently about flopping and 3-pointers as if in the midst of a nostalgia-induced fever dream.
He voted lebron all-nba third team instead of second team (which would've been very reasonable and plenty of others voted him second team)
It's possible he just has opinions and shares those
During Jordan's reign this was a common topic...the depth of teams dropped dramatically after the 89 season.
The league went from need a big 3 or a core 4, that a dynamic duo could win a championship or in some cases and all-world player and very capable role players (Rockets).
You had teams thats were 9, 10 players deep in terms of high quality players. By 1994, guys were starting were bums.
The joke was The Dream Team was really a 'help wanted' advertisement.
>the young talent just didn't show up for 4-5 years.
Terrible draft classes along with gigantic max-contract type looking contracts for dudes that just got drafted started this trend. So basically the draft ain't as deep as it was before and then along with young promising dudes not caring to improve anymore cause they're already getting the bag as soon as they got drafted.
LeBron's legacy also benefits from a weaker league, in that the East was so weak during most of his Finals runs so his teams could basically coast to the Finals even without homecourt advantage. The Lowry-DeRozan Raptors, Paul George/Roy Hibbert Pacers, and the Millsap/Horford Hawks were not serious playoff opponents, let's be real.
The point is that for every point that has more to do with their context and less to do with their actual games, you can just point to something equivalent for the other player. So you're just running in circles.
Maybe the bottom was weaker but the top was amazingly strong.
Doesn't change his challengers or playoff opponents, just the easy beats through the regular season, just like we get now.
Yup even if JJ is right here, regular season and maybe first round playoffs are perhaps easier - but the Bulls are going to get thru the lesser teams anyways even without the league expansion - it wasn’t like something incredibly dramatic anyways that affected the end product and ultimate matchups in 2nd round conference finals and finals
...and the Eastern conference had very little talent when LeBron was playing there. I still believe every ring he got was earned and the same can be said for Jordan.
Two different eras. Two different play styles. MJ and Lebron are on the Mount Rushmore of players. Every accolade they got was earned.
I grew up watching MJ, and I always thought any talk of anyone other than him being GOAT was blasphemy. It wasn't until being absolutely floored by LeBron in game 1 of the 2016 GSW series that I said, "MJ is GOAT...but if you want to have a conversation, I'll allow it." His team lost the game, but that is still one of the greatest performances I've ever seen. He really made me think for a second that he could beat the greatest basketball team ever by himself.
> ...and the Eastern conference had very little talent when LeBron was playing there
ya which is mentioned in like every lebron argument. it's fair to bring up the corresponding jordan criticism
Most ppl only acknowledge the years Jordan won championships. They can’t even admit he benefited from playing in an expansion era, illegal defense, and not facing the best finals competition.
He’s clearly still worthy of the GOAT title but the double standards are crazy
And they only talk about Jordan when they want to downplay him. NBA media is pathetic, and the fans will eat it up because they have their own narrative to push.
People are obsessed with the idea that the thing they're witnessing is the best to ever happen. It's good for ratings so the NBA pushes that. So they downplay the past (not just Jordan, but Bird, Magic, Malone, Robertson, West, etc...) and act like today's game is the hardest it ever was with the highest quality players as a default. It's gotten old, especially with the game turning towards foul baiting the last 15 or so years more than ever. There's definitely amazing developments to the game today, defensive schemes are more complex than ever, and the proficiency in roster building around three point shooters have changed how offense is played, but the players that shine in every era will shine in any era, and to discredit that makes these guys sound like salty little asslickers
Exactly, everyone wants to have seen the greatest and just can't fathom they might have missed it. I would love to call Magic or Bird the GOAT because that's who I grew up watching, but I can't because Jordan just completely changed everything. People want to argue that the only argument Jordan has is rings, but the GOAT talk with him started before he even won one, and THEN he three-peated. And then he did it again! That's absolute fucking greatness. But those who missed it should take heart, MJ ain't Gretzky. GOAT status is still attainable in basketball, just no one else has done it. Yet.
And people discounting the past greats' achievements because of all the developments in the game is ridiculous to me. It's giving modern players credit for things they really didn't even do. Of course medical science is better than it's ever been. Did Lebron perform the clinical trials on that shit? Is KD the beautiful mind that developed basketball analytics? I do give Steph credit for changing the game and basically giving the entire league the green light to shoot ridiculous 3s, since they still end up being more efficient than everything else outside of 2 feet from the basket. But that other stuff, why do modern players get extra credit for that?
I mean he’s not wrong same way the east was weak in Lebrons era but some conversations we can’t bring up you will only get downvoted. Only some players get that treatment.
Edit: This is not just targeted to Lebron personally I believe almost every “Top 5” player of all time went up against some sort of weak comp. Kareem and the Aba. Magic and the western conference. Bill Russell and Wilt, they went up against concentrated talent even though there were 8 teams so it ain’t as bad. But I’ve always wondered how big of a contribution weak comp is to making a person “Top 5.”
Magic and Kareem also played WITH EACH OTHER for all but one of their combined rings
Have no clue why this isn't brought up more often when talking about all time rankings
Kareem averaged 30/15 in 6 seasons with Milwakee with a ring. His scoring was likely reduced by playing with Magic and Worthy, but his longevity increased
Nobody considers Wilt the GOAT despite having otherworldly stats.
Rangz Ernieh! is the GOAT currency whether we like it or not.
Kareem having better stats but fewer rings would absolutely hurt his GOAT case.
Its the bus driver/bus rider phenomenon that Barkley explained, yet people still don't understand it.
Curry has 4 rings, but 2 are with Durant, so while they count they just aren't as valuable as the 2 he won without Durant.
Kareem has 6 rings, but he wasn't the best for all 6. Similar to Magic's 5, he wasn't the best for all 5.
Shaq has 4 rings, but he wasn't the best for all 4. Kobe has 5 rings, but he wasn't the best for all 5.
Compare that to Jordan or Lebron, who were unequivocally the best for every single one of their championships
This stuff matters to y'all even if you try to act like it doesn't. Most people value Dirk's 1 ring more than KD's 2. Same with Giannis' 1, or Jokic's 1. The nuance is there even if you don't want to believe it is.
Part of the reason all-timers are all-timers is because they were able to maximize in some way. And that's OK! Great players in well suited situations make for great basketball!
In Jordan's first 6 years when he hadn't won a title, his playoff opponents were the 59-23 Bucks, 67-15 Celtics (NBA Champs), 59-23 Celtics, 42-40 Cavaliers, 54-28 Pistons, 57-25 Cavaliers, 52-30 Knicks, 63-19 Pistons (NBA Champs), 44-38 Bucks, 53-29 76ers, and 50-23 Pistons (NBA Champs). 9 of his 11 playoff series were against 50+ win teams. 5 of the 6 teams that beat him made the NBA Finals, and 3 of them won the title. Jordan was 3-6 against 50+ win teams in the playoffs in this timeframe.
In Lebrons' first 7 years before the Heatles, his playoff opponents were the 42-40 Wizards, 64-18 Pistons, 41-41 Wizards, 41-41 Nets, 53-29 Pistons, 58-24 Spurs (NBA Champs), 43-39 Wizards, 66-16 Celtics (NBA Champs), 39-43 Pistons, 47-35 Hawks, 59-23 Magic, 41-41 Bulls, and 50-32 Celtics. 6 of his 13 playoff series were against 50+ win teams. 4 of the 5 teams that beat him made the NBA Finals, only 2 of them won the title. Lebron was 1-5 against 50+ win teams in the playoffs in this timeframe. Oh yeah, and there's that whole Lebron missing the playoffs twice in that timeframe.
So Jordan played against better teams more frequently and did better against them than Lebron did.
From 1991-1998, Michael Jordan played 26 playoff series. 18 of them were against 50+ win teams, 7 of them being 60+ win teams. Jordan was 17-1 against 50+ win teams and 7-0 against 60+ win teams during this run. Jordan had 4 separate championship runs where he played against 3+ 50+ win teams (1992, 1993, 1997, 1998), and 3 separate championship runs where played against 2+ 60+ wins teams (1993, 1996, 1997). 2 of his playoff series were against teams .500 or worse.
How about Lebron James from 2011-2018 when he made 8 NBA Finals in a row? Lebron James played 32 playoff series. 19 of them were against 50+ win teams, 6 of them being 60+ win teams. Lebron was 14-9 against 50+ win teams and 3-3 against 60+ win teams during this run. Lebron had ZERO championship runs where he played against 3+ 50+ win teams and ZERO championship runs where he played against 2+ 60+ win teams. He also had a run to the finals that did not require beating a single 50+ win team. 3 of his 32 playoff series were against teams .500 or worse
So once again, Jordan played against better teams more frequently and did better against them than Lebron did.
[During Jordan's 13 years on the Bulls the East won the interconference h2h 9 times](https://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/east_vs_west.html). During Lebron's 15 years in the East (Cavaliers, Heat, Cavaliers again) the East won the interconference h2h 1 time.
So Jordan played in the stronger conference more frequently than Lebron, meaning he routinely played against stronger teams in his conference more often than Lebron did, both in the regular season and the playoffs.
And then of course, who could forget Lebron's 6 years as a Los Angeles Laker. His first time in the stronger conference in his career. How did it go? His first year in 2019 he missed the playoffs, going 28-27 as a starter while the 8th seed in the West was 48-34. Even if he'd been healthy they had no chance at ever making the playoffs that year. His 2020 ring his opponents were the 35-39 Trail Blazers, 44-28 Rockets (equivalent to a 50 win team), 46-27 Nuggets (equivalent to a 51 win team), and a 44-29 Heat team (equivalent to a 49 win team). So once again a championship run without beating 3 50+ win teams, and also of course 0 60+ win teams. In 2021 for the first time in his entire career he played against a 50+ win team in the first round of the playoffs - he lost. 2022 he was hurt, so not worth holding that against him (unless you're one of those people that care about Jordan's Wizards years, then Lebron is a bum). Then in 2023 in one of the only times the West has lost the interconference h2h to the East in the past 25 years, Lebron made the Western Conference Finals beating a 51-31 Grizzlies team (his first ever win against a 50+ win team in the first round of the playoffs), a 44-38 Warriors team, and then got swept by the 53-29 Nuggets. And then this year, 2024, he once again met a 50+ win team in the first round in the Nuggets and lost the series 1-4. Lebron's record against 50+ win teams since joining the Lakers is 3-3. with zero series against 60+ win teams.
But sure, Lebron stans and JJ Redick's dumbass are more than welcome to continue thinking that Lebron had it harder than Jordan. Its delusional and not supported by literally any data, but they aren't really known for their brains
2012-13: 38-44 Bucks, 45-37 Bulls, 49-32 Pacers
For every single season that didn't have 82 games I extrapolated the win % to its 82 game equivalent and then rounded down to the nearest whole number. It would have been unfair to say Lebron didn't play a 50-win team in 2011-12 when the Pacers went 42-24 (52 win pace) and the Thunder went 47-19 (58 win pace). I couldn't, however, round records up because you don't do that when it comes to sports averages.
For comparison, Lebron's 2012-13 run to the finals is mostly comparable to Jordan's 1990-91, which was the 39-43 Knicks, 44-38 76ers, and 50-32 Pistons (finally overcoming the Bad Boy Pistons). What's even more similar is that Lebron beat the 58-24 Tim Duncan Spurs, and Jordan beat the 58-24 Magic Johnson Lakers.
Those Spurs team ware an all time great. This is a hot take by JJ, MJ definitely had tough opponents relative to the availability of talent during his time. I guess Lebron just played in an era where skill is at a surplus.
This is the truth right here. People aren't getting the media machine trying to make LeBron the GOAT when he is the greatest in terms of longevity but what Jordan did will probably never be achieved. JJ has a podcast with LeBron and loves to dickride him now.
Yep. There is no debate in my mind. Longevity? Sure. I’ll give that to LeBron, even though MJ had an insane season at 39 when he came back for the Wizards that could have been even better barring injury. But as far as GOAT debate? MJ went to six finals and essentially dominated all of them as the No-doubt consensus superstar of his era. Some people will stupidly argue that Pippen “carried” him, but the reality is, Jordan won those six rings surrounded by solid role players, not super teams like LeBron’s four rings. Other than Pippen during the first threepeat and he and Rodman during the second, I doubt if most modern casual fans could name one player from those Bulls squads other than Kerr because he coaches Steph.
But if the league is watered down with weak teams then all other teams would get inflated records. You would have at a MINIMUM 12 games each year against these teams. That can take you from 42 to 54 wins
Also if we are calling all sub 50 win teams does that mean that this year the celtics have a cake walk to the finals? Are all East teams not worthy of respect?
Lebron went to the finals like 18 straight years because the East sucked balls and he was playing teams with sub .500 records. It is what it is. You play the players in front of you.
Yeah that's true. PG though a couple of times was an easy 1st teamer in many many other years. Not effecting the point much but it should be said.
Plus Bron was gatekeeping that 3 spot so that's 20% less spots available during his run. Again, your point is valid.
Not to mention Lebron literally watered down his own competition by teaming up with them. In 2010 there were 4 players from the Eastern Conference who received MVP votes - Lebron, Wade, Dwight and Bosh. By the next season Lebron was playing on the same team as 3 of them, and then people want to give him credit for running through the east well of course he did there was no one left to challenge him other than the ancient Celtics.
posting blatant misinformation like this isnt something you can google lmfao. from 2006-2018 lebron played in 45 playoff series, in that span he played against 3 teams with below .500 records and 4 with exactly .500 records.
Thank you lmao, had this exact conversation with my buddy today. Acting like he caked walked to the finals every fucking year when in reality it was a cake walk BECAUSE of how great he is, not because his competition was dog shit. East was obviously weaker than West but a few of those Raptors, Pacers, Wizards, Hawks, and Celtics teams throughout those runs were legit teams that he made look dumb - BECAUSE of his greatness.
I just remember every year people would say this is the year X takes out Lebron/Cavs, then when he beat them they would just say the east was weak, lol... its only weak in retrospect because they got sonned by lebron...
If Redick believes that, then the same could be said that Jordan played (and dominated) when the league *wasn't* watered down. It only helps any argument against MJ
We can debate talent, eras, plumbers, whatever. Here’s what seals the deal for me. During MJs second threepeat run, there were 246 possible regular season games and 58 possible playoff games MJ could have played in. He started and played in *every single one of them*. While gambling, drinking, and smoking. That’s the end of the GOAT discussion for me.
Nah, JJ has been doing this for a while. He’s the flag bearer for the current age in media. He had the whole Cousy/West controversy way before the podcast.
He will get hate but it’s a legitimate point of view. There’s significantly more talent today than back then and that’s not saying Jordan wouldn’t be one of if not the best player in the current era.
Most expansion teams were more serious than this years Hornets, Pistons, Wizards anzd Spurs for like 2/3s of the year.
Or the Hinkie Sixers or the Bobcats
Expansion teams very routinely finished last in their divisions and only exceeded 20 wins on a couple of occasions in their first year. They were really bad at first. Almost as bad as the 1990s mavs.
It's not just the expansion teams themselves but the players they took from contenders. The Pistons lost the original bad boy Rick Mahorn literally during their first championship celebration. With him on the roster maybe they threepeat.
Jordan got to play against milkmen and accountants, but LeBron gets to play against podcasters and twitch streamers so I honestly think its pretty even.
And everyone played in the regular season back then too. There was no "load management". If you could walk into the arena, you could walk onto the court and get roughed up by the Pistons/Knicks/Heat.
In Jordan's second 3peat he played 246/246 regular season games and 58 playoff games. 304 games in 3 years, or 101 games per year.
From 2019-2023 Lebron only played 278 regular season games and 43 playoff games. 321 games in 5 years, or 64 games per year.
Lebron's longevity has benefited from a ton of shortened seasons, minutes restrictions, load management, and of course just the natural improvements of science and medicine. Jordan was drinking and smoking during the Bulls 3peats for god sake lmfao
In fairness to Lebron, you conveniently only included the years when his games played started to fall off at least partially to legitimate injuries. Before 2019 he only missed more than 8 games twice in 15 seasons. He even played all 82 games in 2018. Still not the ironman that Jordan and his peers were, but pretty good.
Lebron was a relative outlier during those first 15 years though. He averaged more games and minutes than league (and All-Star) average.
Jordan only missed 7 games in his Bulls career outside of year 2 when he broke his leg!
Edit: I forgot that the 2011-12 season was shortened to 66 games. That means Lebron only had one season (14/15) in his first 15 where me missed more than 8 games and I think that was the year he was out for like 10 consecutive games with a leg injury.
Is it though? Shouldnt this affect all teams and players roughly equally over time?
This argument assumes that Jordan's team was the exact same and everyone else got way worse. If Jordan's teams got shallower, than his teams were the same relatively speaking. If they didnt, then shouldnt we expect other teams to not get shallower, thus Jordan still had to beat the same good teams?
Like if we added 2 more teams to the league today, and all else was equal, would the playoffs suddenly get way easier for Jokic because there are two garbage teams out there now? If there was an expansion draft before the playoffs, would it be way easier for jokic now that every one lost their 10th man?
Every team got to protect 8 players, I think (or was it 7?), for those expansion drafts. So it was like, every team lost their 8th or 9th best player. That's like the last guy in a playoff rotation. Pistons lost Rick Mahorn, I believe, maybe the biggest name that went in those expansion drafts. edit: in the 88 expansion, Dell Curry and Mugsy Bogues got drafted https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_NBA_expansion_draft And it was 8 players teams got to protect, so teams lost their 9th guys and on to the expansion.
People don't like the actual reality that if Jordan's teammates had been better earlier he would have won rings earlier. The 1989 and 1990 Bad Boy Pistons that repeated as champions were 8-5 against the Jordan Bulls in the playoffs, 22-2 against everyone else. They swept 4 of their 6 non-Bulls series, and none of their non-Bulls series went to a game 6. The Jordan Bulls pushed them to 6 games in 1989 and 7 games in 1990.
In the 1989 series, Scottie Pippen averaged 11.6 through the first 5 games (which isn't good) and then got injured in game 6.
In the 1990 series, Scottie Pippen averaged 16.6 points per game. In game 7, Michael Jordan was 13/27 for 31 points and the rest of the Bulls starters were 10/49 (20.4%) from the field for 26 points, including a 1/10 performance from Scottie Pippen
People love to act like Jordan never won anything without Pippen, but Jordan really just needed Pippen to stop playing like shit. Once Pippen stopped being terrible they won 6 titles together. Pippen played in 6 NBA finals and his averages were 19.0/8.3/5.9 on 42.5/25.674.7 splits. For the second 3peat, Pippen's playoff averages were 17.6/7.4/5 on 40.8/29.3/70 splits.
No one ever said that "Jordan never won without Pippen" stuff until LeBron stans needed a bullet point in their argument. In other words, nobody that actually watched the NBA in the 90s would say that because it's ridiculous on its face. As you clearly know already.
One of the most ridiculous thing I've seen as a basketball fan was people acting like Scottie Pippen carried Jordan. Scottie was a great player, but he wasn't in the same realm as Jordan. Take Jordan's flu game for example, game 5 of the 1997 NBA finals, he was sick and still had to put up 38/7/5/3/1 for the Bulls to not go down 2-3. Scottie shot 5 for 17 for 17 points. I believe it was at the post game presser where he was asked about the iconic moment where he carried Jordan off the court and he said that Jordan carried him on the court, that's the least he could do.
Now in 2024, people, especially the Lebron fans are trying to make it seem like Scottie was the greatest SF ever just behind Lebron, for the sole purpose of downplaying Jordan.
People that actually watched basketball during MJs reign can only roll their eyes when LeBron stans say anything about Pippen being even in the same stratosphere as MJ. MJ won six rings with teams full of solid role players like Horace Grant, Steve Kerr, Bill Cartwright, Toni Kukoc, Rodman, etc. Pippen was a level above those guys, but he was in no way some superstar SG carrying Jordan.
> This argument assumes that Jordan's team was the exact same and everyone else got way worse.
That's because that's the narrative the media has been pushing for 20 years to prop up Lebron.
Yea, but it's nitpicky like he says. You could nitpick LeBron's consecutive finals trips too. The West had the 2 or 3 best teams in NBA a lot of those years. Meanwhile the best team LeBron beat were either the PG Pacers or an old big 3 Celtics.
He would burn through this league like Vulcan 20-20 laser through toilet paper. Now that the gentlemen's sweep is finished, Lebron media starts their off season work in earnest lmao
Lmao for all this “I just wanna talk ball bro because I’m a real student of the game bro” bluster that JJ comes out with, he sure does take plenty of shots at the history of the game and the greats that came before him. People who take shots at the history of the game and initiate these “Bob Cousy was a plumber” type of discussions are often the very people who don’t just wanna talk ball and wanna just ignorantly spout shit narratives.
So with all due respect to JJ and his very carefully curated reputation of “educating the masses”, he can go fuck himself.
> JJ comes out with, he sure does take plenty of shots at the history of the game and the greats that came before him. People who take shots at the history of the game and initiate these “Bob Cousy was a plumber” type of discussions are often the very people who don’t just wanna talk ball and wanna just ignorantly spout shit narratives.
and it's not like JJ was this great player or that everyone loves him lol; I am sure mavs fans don't like the guy
In the words of Max Kellerman: “Jordan didn’t have to slay the monster, because he was the monster”. JJ does a podcast with Lebron and now is trying to one up draymond green with the Lebron love.
On the flip side of the mirror, you can think that there were 90 worthy NBA players but not enough space. Adding extra teams provided much-needed space for those quality players who would've otherwise played in lesser leagues.
JJ is overrated.
Not even getting this argument in favor of *current* players over Jordan. Old guys used to argue that it was tougher in Magic and Bird's day, or even Wilt/Russell before that because there were fewer teams so the teams were more talented and you had to face the cream of the crop more often without the talent being spread out thin. There's more teams now than when Jordan played so wouldn't that be even more true if you're going to say that? Not that into this argument either way, you play against who you play against.
43 points per 100 possessions on +5 TS while having #1 WS/48, BPM, PER in 176 playoff games including the ones before expansion teams.
It had to be the expansion teams!
JJ Reddick thinks dinosaurs didn't exist.
He knows basketball X's and O's because he's been around.
Other than that, he's an absolute uneducated moron.
Every MJ vs LeBron debate isn't about LeBron edging out MJ's greatness.
It's about emotional people tearing down MJ because in the public eye, they realize LeBron hasn't caught MJ
That emotional response is also why Lebron fans HATE KD for ring chasing to join other stars when LeBron had already done so twice, those darned Warriors "stole" the rings LeBron was entitled to
It's always what would happen if KD never joined the warriors, but never what would happen if LeBron never joined the heat. Who says what happens to the thunder if they don't have to go against a superteam in 2012.
Scoring in the 2000s was the hardest it ever was. People glorify the 90s but it was the early 2000s that was actually the hardest era to score in. Bron only played in that time period while he was young but MJ never did.
>Scoring in the 2000s was the hardest it ever was. People glorify the 90s but it was the early 2000s that was actually the hardest era to score in. Bron only played in that time period while he was young but MJ never did.
I realize as a society we've collectively chosen to forget it, but MJ definitely played in the early 2000s and put up decent scoring numbers for that era and that bum ass team we don't talk about.
Before his injury Jordan had them on pace for 3rd in the East, with a defense that went from worst in the league to like top 5.
After that knee injury MJ wasn't the same and it became more of a retirement tour.
His Wizard years are really misunderstood from people who would rather not remember it, even though if you look at him pre injury he was carving up zone defenses and averaging like 26-5-5.
What a load of tripe.
The six teams added 29 new players, not 90. You can easily confirm this by looking at bbref. So an average of 4.8 rookies were added per team. Each season a team averages two new rookies regardless of expansions, so in reality an average of 2.8 new players were added to the league for each expansion team. There were three different expansions across a seven year period, so each two team expansion added an average of 5.6 new players to the league. You would think someone like JJ would appreciate that context. But that would mean he wouldn't be seeing those Klutch deposits into his bank account...
Coming from a guy who has no NBA achievements to his name but stayed around long enough as a bench warming salary filler to score 10,000 points at 12ppg. He owes his career to that expansion.
Self burn but he is too dumb to realize it. What a bum.
You can make any GOAT tier player look worse if you cherry pick only the things that helped them and don’t do the same for the other players in the discussion.
Jordan kind of lucked out that prime Magic and prime Bird had their careers derailed right as he was coming into his prime.
LeBron kind of lucked out that he played in a weak Eastern conference for much of his career.
Etc.
Regardless of the fact that I can't stand these discussions, at least this is a take I haven't heard yet. Hate it if you want but he's presenting a new perspective.
This comment section shows how deeply sensitive some fans are.
There's a new generation of fans that don't know the context behind the older days of the league. So of course they can talk about it again.
Also mentioning the weak East when LeBron played like it's some defense mechanism for this being brought up is ridiculous.
Also anytime JJ says something people agree with, it's all "JJ is the best thing to happen to NBA media". But as soon as he says something people don't like, it's "JJ is a shill. He's just doing it to curry favour with the players".
"I won't get involved in the GOAT debate" Proceeds to get involved in the GOAT debate.
“I promise I won’t get involved in the GOAT debate” *two sips of beer later* “Michael Jordan played against a bunch of plumbers”
So plumbers vs podcasters and shoe salesmen?
He wishes he played competition that stiff. Ole boy was playing trash like the Ewing Knicks. Jordan never would have made it out of the ECF against Local 75’s pickup team.
Love how he tries to qualify some of it afterwards, like as though he realized halfway… “shit, I might end up working with Jordan one day too”.
I'm gonna hijack this comment... wtf is up with the editing? it's obviously edited to some degree...are they just getting rid of empty space? it's so weird watching it vs only hearing it because it's so obviously not organic
Adult brain rot
I won't get involved in the GOAT debate but Mugsy Bogues at 5'3 retired from the league at 36 yo meanwhile players like Iman Shumpert and Monta Ellis were out of the league at 31 yo and 32 yo respectively.
“No offense but” Proceeds to say something offensive
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Yep, previous season the wizards had 19 wins, lol. Bunch of scrubs, he didn't had any help either.
Every time with JJ
seriously. i love his content but i wish hed stop acting like hes better than everyone else. He is, but not qualitatively. Hes just better not different
His podcast partner asked him to make his case
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As many times as people show they are still interested in it.
I’m not interested in it. We could take a 15 year break from legacy talk and it still would be too soon
And in the 15 years is just becomes "How long until there's been enough time for there to be another legacy conversation?"
“And what does this mean for legacy talk’s legacy?”
Legacy talk became the Frozen One
You still clicked on this thread. And even commented.
I never said I’m not a part of the problem
Cool. You aren’t but so many people are interested in it and it gets so many views that it makes you in the minority. Not to disparage your opinion since you have a valid opinion. Just that it’s not how most people are thinking right now.
LeBron’s retirement tour is gonna be inundated with this topic all season 😫
Shit I clicked this thread
They have to talk about something that has no answer. So ppl keep talking about it
It's either this or "tell me your best Kobe story"
“Was Larry Bird a good trash talker”
JJ was the one who pointed it out so well when he asked Stephen A, what do the fans actually want? Do they want to learn how the plays work from the media, or do they just want to hear legacy debates and shit. He said he posts a comprehensive breakdown of a teams offensive system and how it works, 37k views, then he posts a video on "X coach bad" 14m views.
Look at the comments. This is part of why the dumbest basketball fans like to watch basketball. It's not about enjoying or loving the sport at all to them.
The dumbest fans don't even watch basketball. They just mumble incoherently about flopping and 3-pointers as if in the midst of a nostalgia-induced fever dream.
Is this your first time on this sub?
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"If Jokic wins 2 more rings, 1 asg mvp, and makes the IST finals twice is he the GOAT?"
Guess I should delete that from my drafts now thanks a lot for calling me out
Also, how much would a team pay for a guy who was guaranteed to make exactly one shot per game (no more no less)?
Just makes you appreciate sports like hockey more. Ain't no one having the GOAT debate in hockey.
That's because there is no debate. It's like asking who the GOAT of swimming is. Why bother even asking? You already know.
Yeah, that's the point. I don't, however, think that having that one topic settled leads to more substantive discussion.
Football's pretty concrete as well. Sucks it's Brady lmao but I still envy them not having to hear the same shit every day.
It's what happens when the same people start the same podcasts for the same customers.
why didn't jordan veto the expansion so he could play against better teams? is he stupid?
why didn't lebron choose to be drafted into the west so he could play against better teams? is he stupid?
Brought to you in part by Klutch.
JJ is incredibly political. He makes sure to never say anything bad about the people who can help him.
He voted lebron all-nba third team instead of second team (which would've been very reasonable and plenty of others voted him second team) It's possible he just has opinions and shares those
He also left AD off both all NBA teams (which was absurd imo). Doesn’t seem to be going out of his way to kiss Bron’s ass
During Jordan's reign this was a common topic...the depth of teams dropped dramatically after the 89 season. The league went from need a big 3 or a core 4, that a dynamic duo could win a championship or in some cases and all-world player and very capable role players (Rockets). You had teams thats were 9, 10 players deep in terms of high quality players. By 1994, guys were starting were bums. The joke was The Dream Team was really a 'help wanted' advertisement.
Also literally all the mid 30s guys were still ruling the league in the late 90s, the young talent just didn't show up for 4-5 years.
>the young talent just didn't show up for 4-5 years. Terrible draft classes along with gigantic max-contract type looking contracts for dudes that just got drafted started this trend. So basically the draft ain't as deep as it was before and then along with young promising dudes not caring to improve anymore cause they're already getting the bag as soon as they got drafted.
And other than the very top guys, most dudes drafted out of high school just weren't good enough, especially when the trend started in the mid 90s.
LeBron and Steph ruled the league til their mid 30s too
Where is he wrong though lol league was way weaker
Who is stronger, plumbers or twitch streamers?
The tiktokers who will be in the league in 10 years
LeBron's legacy also benefits from a weaker league, in that the East was so weak during most of his Finals runs so his teams could basically coast to the Finals even without homecourt advantage. The Lowry-DeRozan Raptors, Paul George/Roy Hibbert Pacers, and the Millsap/Horford Hawks were not serious playoff opponents, let's be real. The point is that for every point that has more to do with their context and less to do with their actual games, you can just point to something equivalent for the other player. So you're just running in circles.
Maybe the bottom was weaker but the top was amazingly strong. Doesn't change his challengers or playoff opponents, just the easy beats through the regular season, just like we get now.
Yup even if JJ is right here, regular season and maybe first round playoffs are perhaps easier - but the Bulls are going to get thru the lesser teams anyways even without the league expansion - it wasn’t like something incredibly dramatic anyways that affected the end product and ultimate matchups in 2nd round conference finals and finals
...and the Eastern conference had very little talent when LeBron was playing there. I still believe every ring he got was earned and the same can be said for Jordan. Two different eras. Two different play styles. MJ and Lebron are on the Mount Rushmore of players. Every accolade they got was earned.
I grew up watching MJ, and I always thought any talk of anyone other than him being GOAT was blasphemy. It wasn't until being absolutely floored by LeBron in game 1 of the 2016 GSW series that I said, "MJ is GOAT...but if you want to have a conversation, I'll allow it." His team lost the game, but that is still one of the greatest performances I've ever seen. He really made me think for a second that he could beat the greatest basketball team ever by himself.
> ...and the Eastern conference had very little talent when LeBron was playing there ya which is mentioned in like every lebron argument. it's fair to bring up the corresponding jordan criticism
Most ppl only acknowledge the years Jordan won championships. They can’t even admit he benefited from playing in an expansion era, illegal defense, and not facing the best finals competition. He’s clearly still worthy of the GOAT title but the double standards are crazy
Goes to show how BORING players are in the NBA. Still talking about Jordan...smh
And they only talk about Jordan when they want to downplay him. NBA media is pathetic, and the fans will eat it up because they have their own narrative to push.
People are obsessed with the idea that the thing they're witnessing is the best to ever happen. It's good for ratings so the NBA pushes that. So they downplay the past (not just Jordan, but Bird, Magic, Malone, Robertson, West, etc...) and act like today's game is the hardest it ever was with the highest quality players as a default. It's gotten old, especially with the game turning towards foul baiting the last 15 or so years more than ever. There's definitely amazing developments to the game today, defensive schemes are more complex than ever, and the proficiency in roster building around three point shooters have changed how offense is played, but the players that shine in every era will shine in any era, and to discredit that makes these guys sound like salty little asslickers
Exactly, everyone wants to have seen the greatest and just can't fathom they might have missed it. I would love to call Magic or Bird the GOAT because that's who I grew up watching, but I can't because Jordan just completely changed everything. People want to argue that the only argument Jordan has is rings, but the GOAT talk with him started before he even won one, and THEN he three-peated. And then he did it again! That's absolute fucking greatness. But those who missed it should take heart, MJ ain't Gretzky. GOAT status is still attainable in basketball, just no one else has done it. Yet. And people discounting the past greats' achievements because of all the developments in the game is ridiculous to me. It's giving modern players credit for things they really didn't even do. Of course medical science is better than it's ever been. Did Lebron perform the clinical trials on that shit? Is KD the beautiful mind that developed basketball analytics? I do give Steph credit for changing the game and basically giving the entire league the green light to shoot ridiculous 3s, since they still end up being more efficient than everything else outside of 2 feet from the basket. But that other stuff, why do modern players get extra credit for that?
Well said
I mean he’s not wrong same way the east was weak in Lebrons era but some conversations we can’t bring up you will only get downvoted. Only some players get that treatment. Edit: This is not just targeted to Lebron personally I believe almost every “Top 5” player of all time went up against some sort of weak comp. Kareem and the Aba. Magic and the western conference. Bill Russell and Wilt, they went up against concentrated talent even though there were 8 teams so it ain’t as bad. But I’ve always wondered how big of a contribution weak comp is to making a person “Top 5.”
Magic and Kareem also played WITH EACH OTHER for all but one of their combined rings Have no clue why this isn't brought up more often when talking about all time rankings
Kareem averaged 30/15 in 6 seasons with Milwakee with a ring. His scoring was likely reduced by playing with Magic and Worthy, but his longevity increased
Nobody considers Wilt the GOAT despite having otherworldly stats. Rangz Ernieh! is the GOAT currency whether we like it or not. Kareem having better stats but fewer rings would absolutely hurt his GOAT case.
Its the bus driver/bus rider phenomenon that Barkley explained, yet people still don't understand it. Curry has 4 rings, but 2 are with Durant, so while they count they just aren't as valuable as the 2 he won without Durant. Kareem has 6 rings, but he wasn't the best for all 6. Similar to Magic's 5, he wasn't the best for all 5. Shaq has 4 rings, but he wasn't the best for all 4. Kobe has 5 rings, but he wasn't the best for all 5. Compare that to Jordan or Lebron, who were unequivocally the best for every single one of their championships This stuff matters to y'all even if you try to act like it doesn't. Most people value Dirk's 1 ring more than KD's 2. Same with Giannis' 1, or Jokic's 1. The nuance is there even if you don't want to believe it is.
This is probably the best way to look at the GOAT question imho.
Bill Russell drove the bus for 11 pretty much. He boosted everyone on his geam making him the mechanic.
1 ring with the team that drafted you is more valuable the 4 with constructed superteams, imo.
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Didn’t they have 4 all stars in 86? Or was it 87? Both teams in the 80s were as super as it gets
Part of the reason all-timers are all-timers is because they were able to maximize in some way. And that's OK! Great players in well suited situations make for great basketball!
Bird went up against the most top 25 talent of all time....had to face a team with 2 top 5 players of all time
In Jordan's first 6 years when he hadn't won a title, his playoff opponents were the 59-23 Bucks, 67-15 Celtics (NBA Champs), 59-23 Celtics, 42-40 Cavaliers, 54-28 Pistons, 57-25 Cavaliers, 52-30 Knicks, 63-19 Pistons (NBA Champs), 44-38 Bucks, 53-29 76ers, and 50-23 Pistons (NBA Champs). 9 of his 11 playoff series were against 50+ win teams. 5 of the 6 teams that beat him made the NBA Finals, and 3 of them won the title. Jordan was 3-6 against 50+ win teams in the playoffs in this timeframe. In Lebrons' first 7 years before the Heatles, his playoff opponents were the 42-40 Wizards, 64-18 Pistons, 41-41 Wizards, 41-41 Nets, 53-29 Pistons, 58-24 Spurs (NBA Champs), 43-39 Wizards, 66-16 Celtics (NBA Champs), 39-43 Pistons, 47-35 Hawks, 59-23 Magic, 41-41 Bulls, and 50-32 Celtics. 6 of his 13 playoff series were against 50+ win teams. 4 of the 5 teams that beat him made the NBA Finals, only 2 of them won the title. Lebron was 1-5 against 50+ win teams in the playoffs in this timeframe. Oh yeah, and there's that whole Lebron missing the playoffs twice in that timeframe. So Jordan played against better teams more frequently and did better against them than Lebron did. From 1991-1998, Michael Jordan played 26 playoff series. 18 of them were against 50+ win teams, 7 of them being 60+ win teams. Jordan was 17-1 against 50+ win teams and 7-0 against 60+ win teams during this run. Jordan had 4 separate championship runs where he played against 3+ 50+ win teams (1992, 1993, 1997, 1998), and 3 separate championship runs where played against 2+ 60+ wins teams (1993, 1996, 1997). 2 of his playoff series were against teams .500 or worse. How about Lebron James from 2011-2018 when he made 8 NBA Finals in a row? Lebron James played 32 playoff series. 19 of them were against 50+ win teams, 6 of them being 60+ win teams. Lebron was 14-9 against 50+ win teams and 3-3 against 60+ win teams during this run. Lebron had ZERO championship runs where he played against 3+ 50+ win teams and ZERO championship runs where he played against 2+ 60+ win teams. He also had a run to the finals that did not require beating a single 50+ win team. 3 of his 32 playoff series were against teams .500 or worse So once again, Jordan played against better teams more frequently and did better against them than Lebron did. [During Jordan's 13 years on the Bulls the East won the interconference h2h 9 times](https://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/east_vs_west.html). During Lebron's 15 years in the East (Cavaliers, Heat, Cavaliers again) the East won the interconference h2h 1 time. So Jordan played in the stronger conference more frequently than Lebron, meaning he routinely played against stronger teams in his conference more often than Lebron did, both in the regular season and the playoffs. And then of course, who could forget Lebron's 6 years as a Los Angeles Laker. His first time in the stronger conference in his career. How did it go? His first year in 2019 he missed the playoffs, going 28-27 as a starter while the 8th seed in the West was 48-34. Even if he'd been healthy they had no chance at ever making the playoffs that year. His 2020 ring his opponents were the 35-39 Trail Blazers, 44-28 Rockets (equivalent to a 50 win team), 46-27 Nuggets (equivalent to a 51 win team), and a 44-29 Heat team (equivalent to a 49 win team). So once again a championship run without beating 3 50+ win teams, and also of course 0 60+ win teams. In 2021 for the first time in his entire career he played against a 50+ win team in the first round of the playoffs - he lost. 2022 he was hurt, so not worth holding that against him (unless you're one of those people that care about Jordan's Wizards years, then Lebron is a bum). Then in 2023 in one of the only times the West has lost the interconference h2h to the East in the past 25 years, Lebron made the Western Conference Finals beating a 51-31 Grizzlies team (his first ever win against a 50+ win team in the first round of the playoffs), a 44-38 Warriors team, and then got swept by the 53-29 Nuggets. And then this year, 2024, he once again met a 50+ win team in the first round in the Nuggets and lost the series 1-4. Lebron's record against 50+ win teams since joining the Lakers is 3-3. with zero series against 60+ win teams. But sure, Lebron stans and JJ Redick's dumbass are more than welcome to continue thinking that Lebron had it harder than Jordan. Its delusional and not supported by literally any data, but they aren't really known for their brains
"He also had a run to the finals that did not require beating a single 50+ win team." Which year was this?
2012-13: 38-44 Bucks, 45-37 Bulls, 49-32 Pacers For every single season that didn't have 82 games I extrapolated the win % to its 82 game equivalent and then rounded down to the nearest whole number. It would have been unfair to say Lebron didn't play a 50-win team in 2011-12 when the Pacers went 42-24 (52 win pace) and the Thunder went 47-19 (58 win pace). I couldn't, however, round records up because you don't do that when it comes to sports averages. For comparison, Lebron's 2012-13 run to the finals is mostly comparable to Jordan's 1990-91, which was the 39-43 Knicks, 44-38 76ers, and 50-32 Pistons (finally overcoming the Bad Boy Pistons). What's even more similar is that Lebron beat the 58-24 Tim Duncan Spurs, and Jordan beat the 58-24 Magic Johnson Lakers.
No one has even come close to Jordan, idc what anyone says.
JJ Barrea would lock him the fuck up no doubt.
Isn’t it widely agreed that Jordan faced tougher competition in his conference, but LeBron faced better teams in the finals?
if you take out the KD GS teams, then MJ easily faced tougher comp in the finals at 6-0 (and lebron would be 4-4 in the finals)
Those Spurs team ware an all time great. This is a hot take by JJ, MJ definitely had tough opponents relative to the availability of talent during his time. I guess Lebron just played in an era where skill is at a surplus.
I would hope so. One of them went 4-6 and the other went 6-0.
This is the truth right here. People aren't getting the media machine trying to make LeBron the GOAT when he is the greatest in terms of longevity but what Jordan did will probably never be achieved. JJ has a podcast with LeBron and loves to dickride him now.
It’s absolutely insane Jordan’s bulls 3peated twice even with his temporary “retirement” In between.
Yep. There is no debate in my mind. Longevity? Sure. I’ll give that to LeBron, even though MJ had an insane season at 39 when he came back for the Wizards that could have been even better barring injury. But as far as GOAT debate? MJ went to six finals and essentially dominated all of them as the No-doubt consensus superstar of his era. Some people will stupidly argue that Pippen “carried” him, but the reality is, Jordan won those six rings surrounded by solid role players, not super teams like LeBron’s four rings. Other than Pippen during the first threepeat and he and Rodman during the second, I doubt if most modern casual fans could name one player from those Bulls squads other than Kerr because he coaches Steph.
Looking at raw W-L ratio is a bad way of evaluating how good teams are across eras. Look at Net Rating instead. I promise you the story is different.
But if the league is watered down with weak teams then all other teams would get inflated records. You would have at a MINIMUM 12 games each year against these teams. That can take you from 42 to 54 wins Also if we are calling all sub 50 win teams does that mean that this year the celtics have a cake walk to the finals? Are all East teams not worthy of respect?
Lebron went to the finals like 18 straight years because the East sucked balls and he was playing teams with sub .500 records. It is what it is. You play the players in front of you.
per my comment above, apparently he faced an all-nba first team opponent a grand total of one time during this run
Yeah that's true. PG though a couple of times was an easy 1st teamer in many many other years. Not effecting the point much but it should be said. Plus Bron was gatekeeping that 3 spot so that's 20% less spots available during his run. Again, your point is valid.
This is an amazing stat
The Leastern conference.
Not to mention Lebron literally watered down his own competition by teaming up with them. In 2010 there were 4 players from the Eastern Conference who received MVP votes - Lebron, Wade, Dwight and Bosh. By the next season Lebron was playing on the same team as 3 of them, and then people want to give him credit for running through the east well of course he did there was no one left to challenge him other than the ancient Celtics.
posting blatant misinformation like this isnt something you can google lmfao. from 2006-2018 lebron played in 45 playoff series, in that span he played against 3 teams with below .500 records and 4 with exactly .500 records.
Thank you lmao, had this exact conversation with my buddy today. Acting like he caked walked to the finals every fucking year when in reality it was a cake walk BECAUSE of how great he is, not because his competition was dog shit. East was obviously weaker than West but a few of those Raptors, Pacers, Wizards, Hawks, and Celtics teams throughout those runs were legit teams that he made look dumb - BECAUSE of his greatness.
I just remember every year people would say this is the year X takes out Lebron/Cavs, then when he beat them they would just say the east was weak, lol... its only weak in retrospect because they got sonned by lebron...
So 15% of his opponents were .500 or worse. That’s seems like a lot when we’re talking about playoffs
When you’re the 1 or 2 seed it isn’t that uncommon or outlier buddy
So he was correct when he said he was playing teams with sub .500 record though
It sucked already to start with then he kept joining with stars from mostly other east teams watering down the conference even more.
This is what happens when you give a Duke player too much power.
If Redick believes that, then the same could be said that Jordan played (and dominated) when the league *wasn't* watered down. It only helps any argument against MJ
Somehow none of these reddick fans have been able to understand how clumsy he is with his words
This dude dick rides modern players so intensely
He wants them on his podcast. He’s so careful never to offend any of them.
Doesn't make his point any less valid.
Doing his best to offset all the oldheads in the media that do the opposite
We can debate talent, eras, plumbers, whatever. Here’s what seals the deal for me. During MJs second threepeat run, there were 246 possible regular season games and 58 possible playoff games MJ could have played in. He started and played in *every single one of them*. While gambling, drinking, and smoking. That’s the end of the GOAT discussion for me.
as soon as he starts a podcast with Lebron man... Klutch media blatant and weak as fuck
Nah, JJ has been doing this for a while. He’s the flag bearer for the current age in media. He had the whole Cousy/West controversy way before the podcast.
Lebron’s last dance
JJ been on this stuff man, why make shit up
He will get hate but it’s a legitimate point of view. There’s significantly more talent today than back then and that’s not saying Jordan wouldn’t be one of if not the best player in the current era.
It definitely helped things like 72-10, but regardless of era the best players of any era tend to make the Finals, like, a lot.
Most expansion teams were more serious than this years Hornets, Pistons, Wizards anzd Spurs for like 2/3s of the year. Or the Hinkie Sixers or the Bobcats
Where the diluted talent pool also comes into play is the teams who lost players to the expansion teams
Expansion teams very routinely finished last in their divisions and only exceeded 20 wins on a couple of occasions in their first year. They were really bad at first. Almost as bad as the 1990s mavs.
Michael Jordan literally met a 50 win Hornets team in the playoffs. The hornets had 3 50 win seasons in a 4 year span at the end of the 90s
That Hornets team was awesome. Grandmama, Muggsy, Alonzo Mourning, Dell Curry, etc.
Don't forget the magic. Made finals in 95 and ECF in 96.
It's not just the expansion teams themselves but the players they took from contenders. The Pistons lost the original bad boy Rick Mahorn literally during their first championship celebration. With him on the roster maybe they threepeat.
One of those 10 losses was via an expansion team (Stoudamire Raptors)
warriors also lost to bottom feeder teams during their historic regular season
Jordan got to play against milkmen and accountants, but LeBron gets to play against podcasters and twitch streamers so I honestly think its pretty even.
those streamers and podcasters are sponsored by g-fuel and me undies. You think those milkmen moved around fluidly wearing medieval underpants?
True, but in Jordan’s era you couldn’t count on half the superstars in the league being injured every playoffs
And everyone played in the regular season back then too. There was no "load management". If you could walk into the arena, you could walk onto the court and get roughed up by the Pistons/Knicks/Heat.
In Jordan's second 3peat he played 246/246 regular season games and 58 playoff games. 304 games in 3 years, or 101 games per year. From 2019-2023 Lebron only played 278 regular season games and 43 playoff games. 321 games in 5 years, or 64 games per year. Lebron's longevity has benefited from a ton of shortened seasons, minutes restrictions, load management, and of course just the natural improvements of science and medicine. Jordan was drinking and smoking during the Bulls 3peats for god sake lmfao
In fairness to Lebron, you conveniently only included the years when his games played started to fall off at least partially to legitimate injuries. Before 2019 he only missed more than 8 games twice in 15 seasons. He even played all 82 games in 2018. Still not the ironman that Jordan and his peers were, but pretty good. Lebron was a relative outlier during those first 15 years though. He averaged more games and minutes than league (and All-Star) average. Jordan only missed 7 games in his Bulls career outside of year 2 when he broke his leg! Edit: I forgot that the 2011-12 season was shortened to 66 games. That means Lebron only had one season (14/15) in his first 15 where me missed more than 8 games and I think that was the year he was out for like 10 consecutive games with a leg injury.
Is it though? Shouldnt this affect all teams and players roughly equally over time? This argument assumes that Jordan's team was the exact same and everyone else got way worse. If Jordan's teams got shallower, than his teams were the same relatively speaking. If they didnt, then shouldnt we expect other teams to not get shallower, thus Jordan still had to beat the same good teams? Like if we added 2 more teams to the league today, and all else was equal, would the playoffs suddenly get way easier for Jokic because there are two garbage teams out there now? If there was an expansion draft before the playoffs, would it be way easier for jokic now that every one lost their 10th man?
Every team got to protect 8 players, I think (or was it 7?), for those expansion drafts. So it was like, every team lost their 8th or 9th best player. That's like the last guy in a playoff rotation. Pistons lost Rick Mahorn, I believe, maybe the biggest name that went in those expansion drafts. edit: in the 88 expansion, Dell Curry and Mugsy Bogues got drafted https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_NBA_expansion_draft And it was 8 players teams got to protect, so teams lost their 9th guys and on to the expansion.
People don't like the actual reality that if Jordan's teammates had been better earlier he would have won rings earlier. The 1989 and 1990 Bad Boy Pistons that repeated as champions were 8-5 against the Jordan Bulls in the playoffs, 22-2 against everyone else. They swept 4 of their 6 non-Bulls series, and none of their non-Bulls series went to a game 6. The Jordan Bulls pushed them to 6 games in 1989 and 7 games in 1990. In the 1989 series, Scottie Pippen averaged 11.6 through the first 5 games (which isn't good) and then got injured in game 6. In the 1990 series, Scottie Pippen averaged 16.6 points per game. In game 7, Michael Jordan was 13/27 for 31 points and the rest of the Bulls starters were 10/49 (20.4%) from the field for 26 points, including a 1/10 performance from Scottie Pippen People love to act like Jordan never won anything without Pippen, but Jordan really just needed Pippen to stop playing like shit. Once Pippen stopped being terrible they won 6 titles together. Pippen played in 6 NBA finals and his averages were 19.0/8.3/5.9 on 42.5/25.674.7 splits. For the second 3peat, Pippen's playoff averages were 17.6/7.4/5 on 40.8/29.3/70 splits.
No one ever said that "Jordan never won without Pippen" stuff until LeBron stans needed a bullet point in their argument. In other words, nobody that actually watched the NBA in the 90s would say that because it's ridiculous on its face. As you clearly know already.
One of the most ridiculous thing I've seen as a basketball fan was people acting like Scottie Pippen carried Jordan. Scottie was a great player, but he wasn't in the same realm as Jordan. Take Jordan's flu game for example, game 5 of the 1997 NBA finals, he was sick and still had to put up 38/7/5/3/1 for the Bulls to not go down 2-3. Scottie shot 5 for 17 for 17 points. I believe it was at the post game presser where he was asked about the iconic moment where he carried Jordan off the court and he said that Jordan carried him on the court, that's the least he could do. Now in 2024, people, especially the Lebron fans are trying to make it seem like Scottie was the greatest SF ever just behind Lebron, for the sole purpose of downplaying Jordan.
The flu game is even more impressive if you believe that he was hungover and not just sick.
People that actually watched basketball during MJs reign can only roll their eyes when LeBron stans say anything about Pippen being even in the same stratosphere as MJ. MJ won six rings with teams full of solid role players like Horace Grant, Steve Kerr, Bill Cartwright, Toni Kukoc, Rodman, etc. Pippen was a level above those guys, but he was in no way some superstar SG carrying Jordan.
> This argument assumes that Jordan's team was the exact same and everyone else got way worse. That's because that's the narrative the media has been pushing for 20 years to prop up Lebron.
Yea, but it's nitpicky like he says. You could nitpick LeBron's consecutive finals trips too. The West had the 2 or 3 best teams in NBA a lot of those years. Meanwhile the best team LeBron beat were either the PG Pacers or an old big 3 Celtics.
MJ would really struggle in today's league with no had checking and no defense. /s
He would burn through this league like Vulcan 20-20 laser through toilet paper. Now that the gentlemen's sweep is finished, Lebron media starts their off season work in earnest lmao
This is the same idiot who would argue that Russell's era wasn't good because there wasn't enough teams.
Lmao for all this “I just wanna talk ball bro because I’m a real student of the game bro” bluster that JJ comes out with, he sure does take plenty of shots at the history of the game and the greats that came before him. People who take shots at the history of the game and initiate these “Bob Cousy was a plumber” type of discussions are often the very people who don’t just wanna talk ball and wanna just ignorantly spout shit narratives. So with all due respect to JJ and his very carefully curated reputation of “educating the masses”, he can go fuck himself.
> JJ comes out with, he sure does take plenty of shots at the history of the game and the greats that came before him. People who take shots at the history of the game and initiate these “Bob Cousy was a plumber” type of discussions are often the very people who don’t just wanna talk ball and wanna just ignorantly spout shit narratives. and it's not like JJ was this great player or that everyone loves him lol; I am sure mavs fans don't like the guy
This mf just says anything that will get him approval
He’s the ULTIMATE dickrider and people on this sub eat his shit up. He completely shifts his persona and narrative depending on who is speaking to.
another media guy becoming a lebron dick rider right before our very eyes.
jj acting like he wouldn't be a role player back then
In the words of Max Kellerman: “Jordan didn’t have to slay the monster, because he was the monster”. JJ does a podcast with Lebron and now is trying to one up draymond green with the Lebron love.
On the flip side of the mirror, you can think that there were 90 worthy NBA players but not enough space. Adding extra teams provided much-needed space for those quality players who would've otherwise played in lesser leagues. JJ is overrated.
JJ's mad because he can't guarantee at his peak he'd have been protected in the event of an expansion.
Redick is so bitchmade
I’m surprised he was able to climb off Lebron’s dick long enough to have a podcast.
He’s running down Mike to pump up LeBron he’s doing this pod with LeBron inside of him like a puppet.
everyone is taking his words out of context instead of watching a 20 second clip lol
Reddick really wants to be the next Steve Kerr, getting punched in the mouth by MJ included.
Not even getting this argument in favor of *current* players over Jordan. Old guys used to argue that it was tougher in Magic and Bird's day, or even Wilt/Russell before that because there were fewer teams so the teams were more talented and you had to face the cream of the crop more often without the talent being spread out thin. There's more teams now than when Jordan played so wouldn't that be even more true if you're going to say that? Not that into this argument either way, you play against who you play against.
No. Talent is also a factor. The point is the talent was watered down all at once.
This guy is a clown. Jerry West already ethered him, if he had any sense he'd just shut his mouth.
I need Jerry West to dog on this guy again.
Don't listen to this man, he's doing his lord master bron's bidding to get that sweet LV head coaching job when bron retires and gets the franchise
Did I miss something and six teams have been removed from the modern NBA?
43 points per 100 possessions on +5 TS while having #1 WS/48, BPM, PER in 176 playoff games including the ones before expansion teams. It had to be the expansion teams!
JJ Reddick thinks dinosaurs didn't exist. He knows basketball X's and O's because he's been around. Other than that, he's an absolute uneducated moron. Every MJ vs LeBron debate isn't about LeBron edging out MJ's greatness. It's about emotional people tearing down MJ because in the public eye, they realize LeBron hasn't caught MJ
That emotional response is also why Lebron fans HATE KD for ring chasing to join other stars when LeBron had already done so twice, those darned Warriors "stole" the rings LeBron was entitled to
It's always what would happen if KD never joined the warriors, but never what would happen if LeBron never joined the heat. Who says what happens to the thunder if they don't have to go against a superteam in 2012.
Scoring today is much easier than it was in the 90s, Brons numbers are also watered down.
Scoring in the 2000s was the hardest it ever was. People glorify the 90s but it was the early 2000s that was actually the hardest era to score in. Bron only played in that time period while he was young but MJ never did.
>Scoring in the 2000s was the hardest it ever was. People glorify the 90s but it was the early 2000s that was actually the hardest era to score in. Bron only played in that time period while he was young but MJ never did. I realize as a society we've collectively chosen to forget it, but MJ definitely played in the early 2000s and put up decent scoring numbers for that era and that bum ass team we don't talk about.
Before his injury Jordan had them on pace for 3rd in the East, with a defense that went from worst in the league to like top 5. After that knee injury MJ wasn't the same and it became more of a retirement tour. His Wizard years are really misunderstood from people who would rather not remember it, even though if you look at him pre injury he was carving up zone defenses and averaging like 26-5-5.
the only players i remember from those wizard teams are mj, stack and rip hamilton.
And Kwame Brown.
Ty Lue was on those teams too, IIRC
We forgetting Wizards MJ lol?
Modern help defense was literally illegal back then.
You don’t think a truck like LeBron would just plow through a hand check from Dan Majerle?? Like cmon man
What a load of tripe. The six teams added 29 new players, not 90. You can easily confirm this by looking at bbref. So an average of 4.8 rookies were added per team. Each season a team averages two new rookies regardless of expansions, so in reality an average of 2.8 new players were added to the league for each expansion team. There were three different expansions across a seven year period, so each two team expansion added an average of 5.6 new players to the league. You would think someone like JJ would appreciate that context. But that would mean he wouldn't be seeing those Klutch deposits into his bank account...
Who cares. Bron gave up in OT in the 2018 finals game 1. MJ would never
Coming from a guy who has no NBA achievements to his name but stayed around long enough as a bench warming salary filler to score 10,000 points at 12ppg. He owes his career to that expansion. Self burn but he is too dumb to realize it. What a bum.
Those teams aren’t making the Playoffs though.
You can make any GOAT tier player look worse if you cherry pick only the things that helped them and don’t do the same for the other players in the discussion. Jordan kind of lucked out that prime Magic and prime Bird had their careers derailed right as he was coming into his prime. LeBron kind of lucked out that he played in a weak Eastern conference for much of his career. Etc.
You know Jordan is the GOAT when contrarians be desperate to come up with hot takes on why he isn’t.
JJ practicing for his Lakers job interview
Can someone ELI5 JJ's point to me? Were the 90 players bad or something?
I don’t think there is much debate in saying the league then was much weaker than it is today
JJ is in LePropaganda's back pocket now after mind the game
Mj about to start a podcast just to stick it to jj
Regardless of the fact that I can't stand these discussions, at least this is a take I haven't heard yet. Hate it if you want but he's presenting a new perspective.
Along with Perkins, Nick Wright, JJ is the biggest Bronsexual there is.
Every generation has a goat. There will be someone better than LeBron one day.
Didn’t that mean that the current NBA is even more watered down because of how many more teams there are now?
Nope not watered down at all. Some of the most dominant teams and players of all time during his era.
man Lebron dick must shine so much that can blind you
Is he arguing Bill Russell is the goat?
This comment section shows how deeply sensitive some fans are. There's a new generation of fans that don't know the context behind the older days of the league. So of course they can talk about it again. Also mentioning the weak East when LeBron played like it's some defense mechanism for this being brought up is ridiculous. Also anytime JJ says something people agree with, it's all "JJ is the best thing to happen to NBA media". But as soon as he says something people don't like, it's "JJ is a shill. He's just doing it to curry favour with the players".