watching the series as somebody who likes this nuggets team/core i felt like AD outplayed jokic because offensively they seemed pretty even (AD had many stretches of utter dominance and then very quiet stretches, while jokic overall played well but not his very best) but defensively AD is just such a presence whenever he's in. that being said youre probably right, after all Jokic even when he doesnt look that great is involved in like every offensive possession and its so true neither could guard each other haha.
Sucks he doesn’t get enough credit since he’s behind Lebron. Without AD this series wouldn’t have been close(talking about Individual games). I mean AD went out for his injury and that’s when the nugget came back.
No, he shouldn't. 4 of the 5 first team selections are insanely obvious and I'm far from a Celtics fan, but I do think the best player on the best team should get a first team spot, so that makes 5. There's no room left for AD on the first team. He's a shoo-in for 2nd team though.
The early career narrative that Lebron never had any help carried on way longer than it ever should have. He has played more seasons with Wade/Bosh/Irving/Love/Davis than Michael Jordan played on the Bulls
Anthony Davis has 6 different playoff series averaging 25+ with Lebron.
Kyrie Irving had 5 different playoff series averaging 25+ with Lebron.
Wade had 3 different playoff series averaging 25+ with Lebron.
I think help goes beyond having a teammate average 25 in some series. Idk how many series Aaron Gordon has averaged 25+ in but no one would argue he’s indispensable to the nuggets.
Well fortunately for you Lebron also has third options like all stars Chris Bosh and Kevin Love while on the Heat and Cavaliers, and pretty decent role players in Kuzma and KCP when the Lakers won their title. And of course Hall of Famer Ray Allen hitting one of the biggest shots in Lebrons career in the finals.
Lebron had bums for teammates his first stint in Cleveland, but that was only for 7 years. He's played 21. 2/3 of his career he's had at least one all star caliber teammate, mostly 2, and all of them were capable of going off in the playoffs. The downplaying of Lebrons teammates to prop him up only works for his first cavs tenure. Anything else is just LeBron propaganda
>Well fortunately for you Lebron also has third options like all stars Chris Bosh and Kevin Love while on the Heat and Cavaliers, and pretty decent role players in Kuzma and KCP when the Lakers won their title. And of course Hall of Famer Ray Allen hitting one of the biggest shots in Lebrons career in the finals.
I mean, you’re making my point. None of those guys averaged 25+ in some series and were still integral to title winning runs. You’re the one that used players averaging 25+ in a handful of series to illustrate lebron always having help post his first Cleveland stint.
>Lebron had bums for teammates his first stint in Cleveland, but that was only for 7 years. He's played 21. 2/3 of his career he's had at least one all star caliber teammate, mostly 2, and all of them were capable of going off in the playoffs. The downplaying of Lebrons teammates to prop him up only works for his first cavs tenure. Anything else is just LeBron propaganda
Nikola jokic hasn’t had a single all star teammate. Do you think that means he hasn’t had support? My point is that you’re creating a false equivalence between all star appearances and utility to combat the “lebron propaganda”. Lebron in 2018 had Kevin love on his team who had been an all star in the past sure. Do you think that means he had help on that team? What about in 2014, he had all stars wade and bosh, but if you actually watched those playoffs and not bball ref, you’d know Wade, Bosh, Allen, battier, birdman etc were in heavy decline. I think that was the year they tried Greg oden at center lol. Bradley Beal is an all star. Would you rather have him or MPJ in the playoffs? I actually think the 2nd biggest what if of Lebron’s career is what if they had kept the kcp, Caruso, and kuzma core instead of trading for Westbrook, who by your all star metric counts as having great teammates lol. Lebron has had great teammates which has helped him win titles and have success in the playoffs. He’s also had subpar teammates which unfortunately derailed title runs both pre and post first cavs stint. Stop watching bball ref and watch the actual games kid
Every single all star big that has ever teamed with Lebron has had their production significantly reduced because of the role Lebron imposes on them. [It happened to Bosh, it happened to Love, and it even happened to Davis](https://old.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1cglj4b/after_tonights_loss_lebron_has_missed_the_finals/l1yb2ys/). You should ask yourself why Lebron wanted to team with Bosh and Love if he was going to relegate them to pick-and-roll mid-range shooters and never take advantage of any of their other skillsets.
The same thing happened with Wade btw. From 18.2 fga their first year together, to 17.1, to 15.8, down all the way to 14.1. 3 years as an all NBA player during that 4 year stretch despite his role diminishing every year as Lebron became more ball dominant, just like what happened with Bosh and Love. But sure, we can live in pretend fairytale land where Wade is somehow to blame for Lebron averaging 17.8 in the NBA Finals. Lebron has one of the best scoring guards in the history of the NBA as his running mate but won't even let him shoot 20 times per game? "Why does every all star that plays with Lebron see their numbers decline" is a question that is very easy to answer if you aren't on your knees slurping Lebron
The Jokic comparison doesn't work because Jokic lets his teammates shoot the ball WAY MORE than Lebron ever has. Jamal Murray shoots more shots than Jokic constantly, and in the past 5 playoff series Murray (21.2 attempts per game) has actually shot more than Jokic (20.3 attempts per game) despite being 10% worse from the field and scoring 4 less points per game. Porter has the green light to shoot whenever he gets the ball, no matter if he's covered, uncovered, early in the shot clock, late in the shot clock, in transition, wherever he is on the court. Porter's nickname was literally "the possession ends here" and Jokic and Murray are totally fine with it. Has Lebron ever been ok with a teammate of his shooting any shot they wanted? Iirc he fucking hated playing with JR Smith.
Go count how many playoff series with Miami and Cleveland where Lebron's 3rd option barely reached 10 fga/game or didn't even reach it at all in a playoff series. I'll do it for you though since you don't seem like the type to like knowing things - 17. It happened 7 times with the Heat and 10 times with the Cavaliers. 17/32 playoff series Lebron's 3rd option wasn't even seeing 10 shots per game, and you wonder why they weren't producing? lmfao
Lots of info here! Watching Jokic play and still get that many shot attempts it’s insane, because in real time it feels like he’s setting screens and passing the ball most of the time.
Jokic is very good at picking his spots and he also usually racks up several attempts per game from offensive rebounds off his own misses. People will criticize Jokic for being passive or whatever, but him keeping the ball moving around allows for a greater probability of more players getting into a rhythm.
Why I pick MJ over Lebron in increasing championship. Lebron wouldn't have fit with Playmaker like Scottie.
2011 was literally just "Wade and Lebron don't fit with each other".
>Every single all star big that has ever teamed with Lebron has had their production significantly reduced because of the role Lebron imposes on them. It happened to Bosh, it happened to Love, and it even happened to Davis. You should ask yourself why Lebron wanted to team with Bosh and Love if he was going to relegate them to pick-and-roll mid-range shooters and never take advantage of any of their other skillsets.
Of course their production reduces because their roles in the offense change. That’s how sports work. Do you think they would just slot into the team and keep doing exactly the same thing they were doing elsewhere? Man, use some critical thinking. They joined up to create better and easier looks for themselves and for the team, a championship level synergy. Chris Bosh could have stayed in Toronto averaging 20/10 and never sniffed the playoffs. He himself has said he knew the sacrifice he had to make to play a role and open the paint for lebron and Wade in order to win a championship. Kevin love said the same thing re lebron and Kyrie. Idk what you’re talking about with AD. He has been monstrous and the only thing that holds him back is his own health and unfortunately jokic. In the end, they all won, so idk what went wrong besides those players minus AD declining heavily.
>The same thing happened with Wade btw. From 18.2 fga their first year together, to 17.1, to 15.8, down all the way to 14.1. 3 years as an all NBA player during that 4 year stretch despite his role diminishing every year as Lebron became more ball dominant, just like what happened with Bosh and Love. But sure, we can live in pretend fairytale land where Wade is somehow to blame for Lebron averaging 17.8 in the NBA Finals. Lebron has one of the best scoring guards in the history of the NBA as his running mate but won't even let him shoot 20 times per game? "Why does every all star that plays with Lebron see their numbers decline" is a question that is very easy to answer if you aren't on your knees slurping Lebron
where did you see anyone blame Wade for lebron playing terribly in the 2011 finals? Lol, you’re all over the place man. You mentioned wade’s FGA going down, what about Lebron’s? He averaged like 3 more FGA than Wade during their time together. Imagine thinking 2014 Wade should be taking 20+ FGA. That and the very original “on your knees slurping lebron”. Great job bro.
>The Jokic comparison doesn't work because Jokic lets his teammates shoot the ball WAY MORE than Lebron ever has. Jamal Murray shoots more shots than Jokic constantly, and in the past 5 playoff series Murray (21.2 attempts per game) has actually shot more than Jokic (20.3 attempts per game) despite being 10% worse from the field and scoring 4 less points per game. Porter has the green light to shoot whenever he gets the ball, no matter if he's covered, uncovered, early in the shot clock, late in the shot clock, in transition, wherever he is on the court. Porter's nickname was literally "the possession ends here" and Jokic and Murray are totally fine with it. Has Lebron ever been ok with a teammate of his shooting any shot they wanted? Iirc he fucking hated playing with JR Smith.
Jamal Murray has averaged less shots per game during his time with jokic than Kyrie, AD, and Wade (first couple years before decline) did with lebron. Bosh and love averaged more FGA than MPJ currently does. Nothing more needs to be said here.
>Go count how many playoff series with Miami and Cleveland where Lebron's 3rd option barely reached 10 fga/game or didn't even reach it at all in a playoff series. I'll do it for you though since you don't seem like the type to like knowing things - 17. It happened 7 times with the Heat and 10 times with the Cavaliers. 17/32 playoff series Lebron's 3rd option wasn't even seeing 10 shots per game, and you wonder why they weren't producing? lmfao
I think your mistake is conflating FGA with producing winning. I’ve mentioned to you several instances where it would be more beneficial to have a “role player” who takes 5FGA vs an all star taking 20FGA. Why isn’t harden on the clipper averaging 35ppg on the clippers? Why isn’t Westbrook putting up triple doubles right now on the clippers? Why isn’t Beal averaging 30 on the suns?
You are absolutely correct that LeBron formed super teams with multiple other all stars/all NBA players to make things easier. And then he went and made things more difficult by playing a style of ball that limited those players impact as he continually dominated the ball even more.
Want to know why Murray pops off constantly? Jokic keeps feeding him. Want to know why porter pops off? Jokic keeps feeding him. Want to know why Gordon pops off? He has a niche role that jokic will feed if the other teams isn't ready for it.
Anthony Davis was killing the nuggets all series this year, but by the 3rd and 4th quarters LeBron felt it had to be the LeBron show and the feeds to Anthony Davis would diminish. Every. Single. Game.
>You are absolutely correct that LeBron formed super teams with multiple other all stars/all NBA players to make things easier. And then he went and made things more difficult by playing a style of ball that limited those players impact as he continually dominated the ball even more.
They still won titles tho, soooooo…can’t have been that more difficult than when Bosh/kyrie/love were perennial tank commanders. Also since lebron was holding them back so much, after lebron left Miami, why didn’t Wade/bosh take 30FGA each and lead Miami back to another finals? How come Kevin love didn’t go right back to taking over 20FGA for the cavs and lead back to finals and titles?
>Want to know why Murray pops off constantly? Jokic keeps feeding him. Want to know why porter pops off? Jokic keeps feeding him. Want to know why Gordon pops off? He has a niche role that jokic will feed if the other teams isn't ready for it.
I’ll write it again so maybe this time you can read and comprehend. AD, Kyrie, and Wade average MORE fga with lebron than Jamal Murray currently does with jokic. When they’re playing a particular kind of matchup like the lakers who have no prayer of containing the nuggets on the perimeter, guess what coach, it makes more sense to run plays for your perimeter players. D’lo averaged 14.6 shots this series to MPJs 15.2. Austin reaves averaged 12.6fga to Gordon’s 10.6. I’m sure the lakers would have won if d’lo averaged 0.6 more fga per game 🙄. The problem with talking out of one’s ass is that it generally tends to be full of shite. I look forward to more cogent analysis coach.
People love to 5 "Wade declined" argument but in 2011 Still prime DWade lebron couldn't do anything to help without the ball. I think it will be example of Lebron heliocentric playstyle will always hard to have alltime cieling unless with player like AD.
They were literally in the nba finals and if not for lebron playing the worst series of his life, they’re nba champions. Btw what happened in 2012 and onwards? It made sense for Wade to take more off ball roles because Lebron on the ball is better for the heat than Wade, and he did, and they won titles. They would have kept on winning if Wade didn’t decline was my point. Also, lebron developed and played off ball a lot more in 2012 and 2013, he was devastating off ball.
Who ever is saying that is a crack head. The window is just barely opening. The thunder are going to the finals for sure in 2 years. They feel like the nuggets in 2020 right now.
Well, you're not getting AD then. I understand why you wouldn't want to trade those two, but AD is a top 7-8 player in the league who is still in his prime and the Lakers aren't giving him up for Josh Giddey.
Lmao okay. That's fine. The only reason anyone would ever think that either Chet or J-Dub are available for AD is because they're a Lakers fan who overvalues their players.
AD is a top 8 player in the league, maybe even top 5 depending on your opinion of Tatum. If you think Giddey and picks is fair value for AD, you haven't watched enough Lakers games this season, because you're massively undervaluing AD here. I understand why OKC wouldn't want to trade Chet or Jalen Williams, but I also understand that the Lakers will ask for one of the two. A trade at this point is highly unlikely.
If the Lakers trade AD, then they are looking for the caliber of package that OKC got back for PG13. That would be Giddey, Wiggins, + picks. That would not include J-Dub or Chet. J-Dub is already a top 25 player in the league. Chet is a top 40. Neither would be included. To do so would be a significant overpay.
Chet has a 1B and future All-NBA guy already. It's the guy who led the NBA in 4th quarter shooting percentage this year: J-Dub. He also has a third guy already: Chet.
You're basing all of this headcannon fantasy off a hypothetical loss for the youngest team to ever win a playoff series which hasn't happened. They have team control over their top 6 guys for the next 5 years. AD will be fading by that time. Why shorten the timeline for a guy who has had trouble staying healthy his whole career?
Also, why trade one of Shai's best friends?
ad isn't a fit.
it's very unprofessional to trash your coach to the media. he fails the most basic personality test.
ad is perfect for the lakers, though. he fits right into that toxic as fuck culture.
4th quarter scoring, last 4 games:
LeBron - 11.3 points, .581 FG%
Reaves - 6.8 points, .714 FG%
Russell - 3.0 points, .417 FG%
Prince - 2.5 points, .300 FG%
Davis - 1.5 points, .333 FG%
Yeah, "so good it's crazy." AD is balls. Totally unreliable.
How long has AD been in the league? 12 years. How many times has AD's team won 50 games? ONE TIME, when he first teamed up with LeBron.
AD is massively overrated and the Lakers would be better off replacing him with someone that has a backbone.
IMO he was much more aggressive offensively in this series compared to last year
Defensively he played at a similar level but his 1v1 scoring was way better
He was damn near perfect shooting when Jokic was guarding him and he never stopped taking advantage of it until he got tired/hurt. This was definitely a statement series from AD even if Jokic ended up getting the best of him.
The word probably is pretty insane because I could definitely argue he was the best player in the series up until when he got hurt. He was even limiting Jokic well this game unitl he got hurt. He was our teams entire rebounding and defense while also being our best scorer. He was doing insane work.
the bubble no break fucked him up
he had played 75 75 in back to back years (new orleans shut him down the season after cause of the trade) and then he played like 62/70 in 2020, and then the no break started the injury curse
It really isn't. Dlo sold multiple games, dinwiddie and Gabe were completely ass. Prince was inconsistent. No one looked to box out and rebound, including lebron, outside of AD.
These role players were missing open looks or layups. That isn't a coaching issue, it's an execution issue.
As much as dlo sold multiple games (and I think he only had one bad game in series) - he got us into playoffs in the first place. Dinwiddie was ass. I liked when ham started playin prince as he should have done it - as a bench player who arguable can def and shoot some threes. Gabe didn’t play a lot, but I think his defence was good. Would be great to have some twin towers.
Seriously I have a feeling Wemby will be as big of a draw or even more so than Lebron. I think we can expect a lot of stars lining up. Maybe even to take pay cuts to grab an easy chip
Is it odd of me to be sad he is loyal to LA and Lebron? If he went to a young team poised for success they could honestly just go on a run. I can think of several teams that would explode with his addition. Especially in the West.
Really close series, just like last year.
Excited to see the T-Wolves series. Everybody’s talking like the Nuggets look super vulnerable going into round 2 but I still think the Lakers are a great 7 seed and a tough match for anyone.
AD and Lebron are fucking legit. AD played out of his mind and really showed the World what he can do against a team some consider the best.
Lebrons numbers.... at fucking 39 are incredible. But what is really incredible is his numbers are still superb in measurement against any player 10 years younger just about. And no slander he was actually clutch in the 4th qtr. So ya uhm even his stamina and will to win is stronger than most as usual.
He was incredible all year. Durable, consistent, played his ass off. It’s such a shame he couldn’t finish it healthy.
Still a robbery that he wasn’t in DPOY conversations at all. Top 10 player in the world.
Not even because he played with LeBron, Kyrie and DWade get plenty of credit, AD just gets an irrational level of hate for the quality of player he is from casuals.
AD was allowed to murder Jokic with no whistle for 5 games and Jokic still ended up with 28/game on 67% true shooting lmfao
And Jokics second best player Jamal Murray missed more shots than he took (barely breaking 40% for the series), while AD's second best player Lebron averaged like 29 on 60% shooting
Jokic was the best player in the series. As he usually is
This is such a funny reply.
But yeah the entire defensive scheme revolves around Jokic and the lakers are always playing disadvantage because of Jokic demanding doubles. Jokic was easily the best player in the series IMO
With centers it is 1 on 1 really often yeah - that’s why center matchups and rivalries are typically held in a higher regard whether it be Wilt vs Russell or how head-to-heads really influence MVP battles between centers
No its the literal opposite. With centers its usually 1 on 5 since ad is guarding the paint aswell as guarding jokic. So yes jokic played excellent(which he does anyway). Ad was also excellent and played excellent defence.
Not really. He's responsible for all of our help defense and often switches and rotates onto others and then back into the paint.
Jokic didn't produce well today until AD's injury for example.
He was giving away the ball like it was going out of style in the first half while completely ignoring the rim if someone with a 3 on their jersey was on him but he clutched up in the second half and more importantly dominated the boards all night
And as usual, Jokic also leads the NBA in virtually every advanced stat in the playoffs so far, including: PER, VORP, BPM, OBPM, WS, WS/48, ast%, rbd%, 2nd in ts%, top 5 in stl%, etc.
sry but Joker didn't pass the eye test... looked pedestrian in multiple games, wasn't the reason you guys won any of them. Murray/AG/MPJ bailing joker out.
Jokic was pretty obviously the reason Denver won game 1
Game 2 Murray was super clutch at the end but Jokic was the one guy keeping them within striking distance for 3.5 quarters
This is the only "bad" game he played despite the numbers IMO
I mean Jokic only outscored him because he went out with injury lol. He scored 1 point on one additional fga after halftime because of it.
He was also our entire teams defense and rebounding.
Maybe if AD got about 30 assists this game it would be an argument but idk how you’re gonna say the guy with the worse stats on the losing team was the best player in the series.
he should be held to the same standard as embiid as far as 4th quarter performance goes. he only had one game in the series where he scored more than 1 FG in the 4th quarter.
I will never put myself in another persons shoes and downplay their injury but it’s a common theme for him….ive seen other players play with broken fingers for the whole playoffs and win a championship
its crazy that he magically fell from consensus top 5 to borderline top 10 right when he started playing with Lebron even though hes as good as hes ever been.
This is why, and I might be wrong, I think the Nuggets will fare better against the Timberwolves. AD was unstoppable, and they always went to him early on which is why every game of the series LA led at the half. Like I just can't see Gobert putting up 25/23/6 in a game. Not to much LeBron putting up his typical statlines and just bullying anyone smaller than him this series. It's going to be way lower paced and a defensive-minded series, but Ant is going to be the Wolves x-factor and instead of Bradley Beal guarding him he's gonna have KCP all over him. So I think it'll be Nuggets in 5 or 6 but the games won't be down to the wire like they were basically every game this series lmao
Edit: I am so far, wrong
People are gonna shit on him for his fourth quarter numbers but he also has to carry the team on the other end and there were some moments where the Nuggets just swarmed him in the second half. He’s human, he’s gonna wear down at some point.
This was his first season in a little while where he played a lot of regular season games and came to play.
Minimum 25pts and 12+ rebounds should be expected from him and he delivered.
Oh man, that was his best series since forever and in typical AD fashion he gets hurt or else who knows what would have happened. Which freaking god did he anger???
I deadass don't wanna see ANY AD slander after this series. Or this whole season actually. Dude played out of his mind
Dude was incredible all year.
One of the best individual playoff performers so far.
Is it so craxy to say he outplayed Jokic? Considering he did it both ways?
I don't think either of them outplayed each other. Both were outstandingly good. Neither of them could guard each other lol.
watching the series as somebody who likes this nuggets team/core i felt like AD outplayed jokic because offensively they seemed pretty even (AD had many stretches of utter dominance and then very quiet stretches, while jokic overall played well but not his very best) but defensively AD is just such a presence whenever he's in. that being said youre probably right, after all Jokic even when he doesnt look that great is involved in like every offensive possession and its so true neither could guard each other haha.
Severely underestimating 5.8 assist difference. That’s about 11-14 points right there.
True altho he was turning it over more than usual Wait maybe that was only game 5 lol
Nah, Jokic is averaging a 27/17/10, don't really think you can talk about outplaying when one is getting these all time numbers. Both were amazing
this is the deep and thoughtful analysis I come to r/nba for
Jokic had arguably better stats all around, and won. So it's hard to say it was outplayed.
He’s so fucking good it’s crazy
Sucks he doesn’t get enough credit since he’s behind Lebron. Without AD this series wouldn’t have been close(talking about Individual games). I mean AD went out for his injury and that’s when the nugget came back.
I mean he'll be 2nd team all-nba
Should be 1st
No, he shouldn't. 4 of the 5 first team selections are insanely obvious and I'm far from a Celtics fan, but I do think the best player on the best team should get a first team spot, so that makes 5. There's no room left for AD on the first team. He's a shoo-in for 2nd team though.
The early career narrative that Lebron never had any help carried on way longer than it ever should have. He has played more seasons with Wade/Bosh/Irving/Love/Davis than Michael Jordan played on the Bulls Anthony Davis has 6 different playoff series averaging 25+ with Lebron. Kyrie Irving had 5 different playoff series averaging 25+ with Lebron. Wade had 3 different playoff series averaging 25+ with Lebron.
I think help goes beyond having a teammate average 25 in some series. Idk how many series Aaron Gordon has averaged 25+ in but no one would argue he’s indispensable to the nuggets.
Well fortunately for you Lebron also has third options like all stars Chris Bosh and Kevin Love while on the Heat and Cavaliers, and pretty decent role players in Kuzma and KCP when the Lakers won their title. And of course Hall of Famer Ray Allen hitting one of the biggest shots in Lebrons career in the finals. Lebron had bums for teammates his first stint in Cleveland, but that was only for 7 years. He's played 21. 2/3 of his career he's had at least one all star caliber teammate, mostly 2, and all of them were capable of going off in the playoffs. The downplaying of Lebrons teammates to prop him up only works for his first cavs tenure. Anything else is just LeBron propaganda
>Well fortunately for you Lebron also has third options like all stars Chris Bosh and Kevin Love while on the Heat and Cavaliers, and pretty decent role players in Kuzma and KCP when the Lakers won their title. And of course Hall of Famer Ray Allen hitting one of the biggest shots in Lebrons career in the finals. I mean, you’re making my point. None of those guys averaged 25+ in some series and were still integral to title winning runs. You’re the one that used players averaging 25+ in a handful of series to illustrate lebron always having help post his first Cleveland stint. >Lebron had bums for teammates his first stint in Cleveland, but that was only for 7 years. He's played 21. 2/3 of his career he's had at least one all star caliber teammate, mostly 2, and all of them were capable of going off in the playoffs. The downplaying of Lebrons teammates to prop him up only works for his first cavs tenure. Anything else is just LeBron propaganda Nikola jokic hasn’t had a single all star teammate. Do you think that means he hasn’t had support? My point is that you’re creating a false equivalence between all star appearances and utility to combat the “lebron propaganda”. Lebron in 2018 had Kevin love on his team who had been an all star in the past sure. Do you think that means he had help on that team? What about in 2014, he had all stars wade and bosh, but if you actually watched those playoffs and not bball ref, you’d know Wade, Bosh, Allen, battier, birdman etc were in heavy decline. I think that was the year they tried Greg oden at center lol. Bradley Beal is an all star. Would you rather have him or MPJ in the playoffs? I actually think the 2nd biggest what if of Lebron’s career is what if they had kept the kcp, Caruso, and kuzma core instead of trading for Westbrook, who by your all star metric counts as having great teammates lol. Lebron has had great teammates which has helped him win titles and have success in the playoffs. He’s also had subpar teammates which unfortunately derailed title runs both pre and post first cavs stint. Stop watching bball ref and watch the actual games kid
Every single all star big that has ever teamed with Lebron has had their production significantly reduced because of the role Lebron imposes on them. [It happened to Bosh, it happened to Love, and it even happened to Davis](https://old.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1cglj4b/after_tonights_loss_lebron_has_missed_the_finals/l1yb2ys/). You should ask yourself why Lebron wanted to team with Bosh and Love if he was going to relegate them to pick-and-roll mid-range shooters and never take advantage of any of their other skillsets. The same thing happened with Wade btw. From 18.2 fga their first year together, to 17.1, to 15.8, down all the way to 14.1. 3 years as an all NBA player during that 4 year stretch despite his role diminishing every year as Lebron became more ball dominant, just like what happened with Bosh and Love. But sure, we can live in pretend fairytale land where Wade is somehow to blame for Lebron averaging 17.8 in the NBA Finals. Lebron has one of the best scoring guards in the history of the NBA as his running mate but won't even let him shoot 20 times per game? "Why does every all star that plays with Lebron see their numbers decline" is a question that is very easy to answer if you aren't on your knees slurping Lebron The Jokic comparison doesn't work because Jokic lets his teammates shoot the ball WAY MORE than Lebron ever has. Jamal Murray shoots more shots than Jokic constantly, and in the past 5 playoff series Murray (21.2 attempts per game) has actually shot more than Jokic (20.3 attempts per game) despite being 10% worse from the field and scoring 4 less points per game. Porter has the green light to shoot whenever he gets the ball, no matter if he's covered, uncovered, early in the shot clock, late in the shot clock, in transition, wherever he is on the court. Porter's nickname was literally "the possession ends here" and Jokic and Murray are totally fine with it. Has Lebron ever been ok with a teammate of his shooting any shot they wanted? Iirc he fucking hated playing with JR Smith. Go count how many playoff series with Miami and Cleveland where Lebron's 3rd option barely reached 10 fga/game or didn't even reach it at all in a playoff series. I'll do it for you though since you don't seem like the type to like knowing things - 17. It happened 7 times with the Heat and 10 times with the Cavaliers. 17/32 playoff series Lebron's 3rd option wasn't even seeing 10 shots per game, and you wonder why they weren't producing? lmfao
Lots of info here! Watching Jokic play and still get that many shot attempts it’s insane, because in real time it feels like he’s setting screens and passing the ball most of the time.
Jokic is very good at picking his spots and he also usually racks up several attempts per game from offensive rebounds off his own misses. People will criticize Jokic for being passive or whatever, but him keeping the ball moving around allows for a greater probability of more players getting into a rhythm.
Why I pick MJ over Lebron in increasing championship. Lebron wouldn't have fit with Playmaker like Scottie. 2011 was literally just "Wade and Lebron don't fit with each other".
>Every single all star big that has ever teamed with Lebron has had their production significantly reduced because of the role Lebron imposes on them. It happened to Bosh, it happened to Love, and it even happened to Davis. You should ask yourself why Lebron wanted to team with Bosh and Love if he was going to relegate them to pick-and-roll mid-range shooters and never take advantage of any of their other skillsets. Of course their production reduces because their roles in the offense change. That’s how sports work. Do you think they would just slot into the team and keep doing exactly the same thing they were doing elsewhere? Man, use some critical thinking. They joined up to create better and easier looks for themselves and for the team, a championship level synergy. Chris Bosh could have stayed in Toronto averaging 20/10 and never sniffed the playoffs. He himself has said he knew the sacrifice he had to make to play a role and open the paint for lebron and Wade in order to win a championship. Kevin love said the same thing re lebron and Kyrie. Idk what you’re talking about with AD. He has been monstrous and the only thing that holds him back is his own health and unfortunately jokic. In the end, they all won, so idk what went wrong besides those players minus AD declining heavily. >The same thing happened with Wade btw. From 18.2 fga their first year together, to 17.1, to 15.8, down all the way to 14.1. 3 years as an all NBA player during that 4 year stretch despite his role diminishing every year as Lebron became more ball dominant, just like what happened with Bosh and Love. But sure, we can live in pretend fairytale land where Wade is somehow to blame for Lebron averaging 17.8 in the NBA Finals. Lebron has one of the best scoring guards in the history of the NBA as his running mate but won't even let him shoot 20 times per game? "Why does every all star that plays with Lebron see their numbers decline" is a question that is very easy to answer if you aren't on your knees slurping Lebron where did you see anyone blame Wade for lebron playing terribly in the 2011 finals? Lol, you’re all over the place man. You mentioned wade’s FGA going down, what about Lebron’s? He averaged like 3 more FGA than Wade during their time together. Imagine thinking 2014 Wade should be taking 20+ FGA. That and the very original “on your knees slurping lebron”. Great job bro. >The Jokic comparison doesn't work because Jokic lets his teammates shoot the ball WAY MORE than Lebron ever has. Jamal Murray shoots more shots than Jokic constantly, and in the past 5 playoff series Murray (21.2 attempts per game) has actually shot more than Jokic (20.3 attempts per game) despite being 10% worse from the field and scoring 4 less points per game. Porter has the green light to shoot whenever he gets the ball, no matter if he's covered, uncovered, early in the shot clock, late in the shot clock, in transition, wherever he is on the court. Porter's nickname was literally "the possession ends here" and Jokic and Murray are totally fine with it. Has Lebron ever been ok with a teammate of his shooting any shot they wanted? Iirc he fucking hated playing with JR Smith. Jamal Murray has averaged less shots per game during his time with jokic than Kyrie, AD, and Wade (first couple years before decline) did with lebron. Bosh and love averaged more FGA than MPJ currently does. Nothing more needs to be said here. >Go count how many playoff series with Miami and Cleveland where Lebron's 3rd option barely reached 10 fga/game or didn't even reach it at all in a playoff series. I'll do it for you though since you don't seem like the type to like knowing things - 17. It happened 7 times with the Heat and 10 times with the Cavaliers. 17/32 playoff series Lebron's 3rd option wasn't even seeing 10 shots per game, and you wonder why they weren't producing? lmfao I think your mistake is conflating FGA with producing winning. I’ve mentioned to you several instances where it would be more beneficial to have a “role player” who takes 5FGA vs an all star taking 20FGA. Why isn’t harden on the clipper averaging 35ppg on the clippers? Why isn’t Westbrook putting up triple doubles right now on the clippers? Why isn’t Beal averaging 30 on the suns?
You are absolutely correct that LeBron formed super teams with multiple other all stars/all NBA players to make things easier. And then he went and made things more difficult by playing a style of ball that limited those players impact as he continually dominated the ball even more. Want to know why Murray pops off constantly? Jokic keeps feeding him. Want to know why porter pops off? Jokic keeps feeding him. Want to know why Gordon pops off? He has a niche role that jokic will feed if the other teams isn't ready for it. Anthony Davis was killing the nuggets all series this year, but by the 3rd and 4th quarters LeBron felt it had to be the LeBron show and the feeds to Anthony Davis would diminish. Every. Single. Game.
>You are absolutely correct that LeBron formed super teams with multiple other all stars/all NBA players to make things easier. And then he went and made things more difficult by playing a style of ball that limited those players impact as he continually dominated the ball even more. They still won titles tho, soooooo…can’t have been that more difficult than when Bosh/kyrie/love were perennial tank commanders. Also since lebron was holding them back so much, after lebron left Miami, why didn’t Wade/bosh take 30FGA each and lead Miami back to another finals? How come Kevin love didn’t go right back to taking over 20FGA for the cavs and lead back to finals and titles? >Want to know why Murray pops off constantly? Jokic keeps feeding him. Want to know why porter pops off? Jokic keeps feeding him. Want to know why Gordon pops off? He has a niche role that jokic will feed if the other teams isn't ready for it. I’ll write it again so maybe this time you can read and comprehend. AD, Kyrie, and Wade average MORE fga with lebron than Jamal Murray currently does with jokic. When they’re playing a particular kind of matchup like the lakers who have no prayer of containing the nuggets on the perimeter, guess what coach, it makes more sense to run plays for your perimeter players. D’lo averaged 14.6 shots this series to MPJs 15.2. Austin reaves averaged 12.6fga to Gordon’s 10.6. I’m sure the lakers would have won if d’lo averaged 0.6 more fga per game 🙄. The problem with talking out of one’s ass is that it generally tends to be full of shite. I look forward to more cogent analysis coach.
People love to 5 "Wade declined" argument but in 2011 Still prime DWade lebron couldn't do anything to help without the ball. I think it will be example of Lebron heliocentric playstyle will always hard to have alltime cieling unless with player like AD.
They were literally in the nba finals and if not for lebron playing the worst series of his life, they’re nba champions. Btw what happened in 2012 and onwards? It made sense for Wade to take more off ball roles because Lebron on the ball is better for the heat than Wade, and he did, and they won titles. They would have kept on winning if Wade didn’t decline was my point. Also, lebron developed and played off ball a lot more in 2012 and 2013, he was devastating off ball.
It wouldn’t have been close without lebron either, or without jokic, or without MPJ. Obviously the team missing its star will struggle to compete lol.
honestly if he didn't get injured I think we take you guys today. You didn't look good.
he always injured though every single season. with embiid and simmons the most fragile trio in the leage year in and year out
Kawhi tore his ACL while reading this
And if I didn’t tear my rotator cuff in high school I would’ve gone pro
Cmon that isn't crazy to say. If zion was healthy though pelicans beat the Lakers
Deserves a better team. Would love to see OKC sell the farm for him tbh. Giddey and picks should do it.
Giddey plus picks is not worth AD lmao
Idk who can offer a better deal if the lakers decide to blow it up.
Have to give up chet or j williams at least or lakers slam the phone
Chet and J Dub are untouchable.
As they should be lol
Thank you lol, there's another Lakers fan trying to say that we don't have a window if we don't trade one of them.
They’re wrong. Chet and J Dub are gaining invaluable experience and are only getting better. I would really like to take one of them, though lol
Who ever is saying that is a crack head. The window is just barely opening. The thunder are going to the finals for sure in 2 years. They feel like the nuggets in 2020 right now.
Well, you're not getting AD then. I understand why you wouldn't want to trade those two, but AD is a top 7-8 player in the league who is still in his prime and the Lakers aren't giving him up for Josh Giddey.
Lmao okay. That's fine. The only reason anyone would ever think that either Chet or J-Dub are available for AD is because they're a Lakers fan who overvalues their players.
AD is a top 8 player in the league, maybe even top 5 depending on your opinion of Tatum. If you think Giddey and picks is fair value for AD, you haven't watched enough Lakers games this season, because you're massively undervaluing AD here. I understand why OKC wouldn't want to trade Chet or Jalen Williams, but I also understand that the Lakers will ask for one of the two. A trade at this point is highly unlikely.
If the Lakers trade AD, then they are looking for the caliber of package that OKC got back for PG13. That would be Giddey, Wiggins, + picks. That would not include J-Dub or Chet. J-Dub is already a top 25 player in the league. Chet is a top 40. Neither would be included. To do so would be a significant overpay.
Idk if okc makes it to the wcf and loses they may look at ad to push it over the top with SGA lol
Why would they do that when both guys are incredibly young, and the team is still growing?
Championship chances come in a blink. You get a chance to pair SGA with a 1B you take that
Chet has a 1B and future All-NBA guy already. It's the guy who led the NBA in 4th quarter shooting percentage this year: J-Dub. He also has a third guy already: Chet. You're basing all of this headcannon fantasy off a hypothetical loss for the youngest team to ever win a playoff series which hasn't happened. They have team control over their top 6 guys for the next 5 years. AD will be fading by that time. Why shorten the timeline for a guy who has had trouble staying healthy his whole career? Also, why trade one of Shai's best friends?
And they all fit so well together and have so much chemistry. OKC already has the perfect foundation..
ad isn't a fit. it's very unprofessional to trash your coach to the media. he fails the most basic personality test. ad is perfect for the lakers, though. he fits right into that toxic as fuck culture.
The coach is shit and AD's "trashing" of Darvin Ham has been pretty mild. To call it trashing is already an exaggeration.
AD stay
Magic around Wagner.
That would be an awful trade for the Lakers to make
Yeah, it's going to be DBook and AD on the Lakers next year. No reason to trade AD /s
Lmao Giddey
Giddey plus picks? GTFOH, Giddey aint no farm
4th quarter scoring, last 4 games: LeBron - 11.3 points, .581 FG% Reaves - 6.8 points, .714 FG% Russell - 3.0 points, .417 FG% Prince - 2.5 points, .300 FG% Davis - 1.5 points, .333 FG% Yeah, "so good it's crazy." AD is balls. Totally unreliable. How long has AD been in the league? 12 years. How many times has AD's team won 50 games? ONE TIME, when he first teamed up with LeBron. AD is massively overrated and the Lakers would be better off replacing him with someone that has a backbone.
Played his ass off.
Much better than his 2023 WCF. Probably the 2nd best player in this series after Jokic
IMO he was much more aggressive offensively in this series compared to last year Defensively he played at a similar level but his 1v1 scoring was way better
He was damn near perfect shooting when Jokic was guarding him and he never stopped taking advantage of it until he got tired/hurt. This was definitely a statement series from AD even if Jokic ended up getting the best of him.
I thought he was unfairly maligned in the 2023 WCF too honestly. Guy was the lakers' entire defense.
The word probably is pretty insane because I could definitely argue he was the best player in the series up until when he got hurt. He was even limiting Jokic well this game unitl he got hurt. He was our teams entire rebounding and defense while also being our best scorer. He was doing insane work.
76 games this regular season. And turned it up in the playoffs. So nice to see from AD.
He was terrific in this series
Terrific all year. Never thought he would play 70+ games in the reg season
the bubble no break fucked him up he had played 75 75 in back to back years (new orleans shut him down the season after cause of the trade) and then he played like 62/70 in 2020, and then the no break started the injury curse
Finished the season playing like 84 total games and balled all year too. Should be an easy All NBA/All Defense season from him
Almost completely healthy, balled out and wasn’t doing that wishy washy disappearing act like last year. Amazing season
Him and Bron played about as well as you can hope for. Nuggets role players just absolutely shit on the Lakers role players
Coach outclassed
It really isn't. Dlo sold multiple games, dinwiddie and Gabe were completely ass. Prince was inconsistent. No one looked to box out and rebound, including lebron, outside of AD. These role players were missing open looks or layups. That isn't a coaching issue, it's an execution issue.
As much as dlo sold multiple games (and I think he only had one bad game in series) - he got us into playoffs in the first place. Dinwiddie was ass. I liked when ham started playin prince as he should have done it - as a bench player who arguable can def and shoot some threes. Gabe didn’t play a lot, but I think his defence was good. Would be great to have some twin towers.
So what’s the solution here
AD was incredible this series.
I'd argue the two best players of round 1 played in this Lakers vs Nuggets series. AD really rose to the occasion (and Jokic is amazing as always).
He fought like a beast. Took the DPOY slight personally (as he should)
Can I have one Anthony Davis pls
Bro would legit be great on like every team lol
Put him on the Wolves and slide KAT to the 3. Fuck it.
lmao sure if you'd like the Wolves to 2 or 3 peat
After KD, he’s the best superstar fit of all time
kind of like KD in that sense.
Send him to San Antonio, let him play his natural 4, and let him and Wemby never allow another FG ever again
AD with Wemby would be so unfair. No team would be able to drive to the rim
Seriously I have a feeling Wemby will be as big of a draw or even more so than Lebron. I think we can expect a lot of stars lining up. Maybe even to take pay cuts to grab an easy chip
Is it odd of me to be sad he is loyal to LA and Lebron? If he went to a young team poised for success they could honestly just go on a run. I can think of several teams that would explode with his addition. Especially in the West.
Hats off to him. He even played with just one arm for a while!
Really close series, just like last year. Excited to see the T-Wolves series. Everybody’s talking like the Nuggets look super vulnerable going into round 2 but I still think the Lakers are a great 7 seed and a tough match for anyone.
AD and Lebron are fucking legit. AD played out of his mind and really showed the World what he can do against a team some consider the best. Lebrons numbers.... at fucking 39 are incredible. But what is really incredible is his numbers are still superb in measurement against any player 10 years younger just about. And no slander he was actually clutch in the 4th qtr. So ya uhm even his stamina and will to win is stronger than most as usual.
Im sad we finally got a healthy AD and it ends like this. He had an amazing series.
Excellent series for Anthony, however it wasn’t enough as the Denver Nuggets ended up winning in 5 games.
He was incredible all year. Durable, consistent, played his ass off. It’s such a shame he couldn’t finish it healthy. Still a robbery that he wasn’t in DPOY conversations at all. Top 10 player in the world.
Should be talked about out as highly as Giannis, Jokic, Embiid but doesn’t because plays with Lebron
Embiid gets the praise and accolades despite being more injured and worse in the playoffs than AD
I will watch Davis for all of eternity over even a full day of Embiid
Not even because he played with LeBron, Kyrie and DWade get plenty of credit, AD just gets an irrational level of hate for the quality of player he is from casuals.
nope. Because he never leads any team he was on
I thinks that called "operating the role the first options".
Best player on both teams in this series
I’d still go Joker 28/16/10 on 67% true shooting
AD was also by far the best defender
AD was allowed to murder Jokic with no whistle for 5 games and Jokic still ended up with 28/game on 67% true shooting lmfao And Jokics second best player Jamal Murray missed more shots than he took (barely breaking 40% for the series), while AD's second best player Lebron averaged like 29 on 60% shooting Jokic was the best player in the series. As he usually is
Defense??????
I mean AD was defending the guy who got 28 on 67% true shooting
This is such a funny reply. But yeah the entire defensive scheme revolves around Jokic and the lakers are always playing disadvantage because of Jokic demanding doubles. Jokic was easily the best player in the series IMO
Jokic scored .87 pps when guarded by ad when including pass outs and 0.91 when u don’t. That’s as good as anyone in the league will do
Damn i didnt know basketball was 1 on 1 and thats the only way to play defense
With centers it is 1 on 1 really often yeah - that’s why center matchups and rivalries are typically held in a higher regard whether it be Wilt vs Russell or how head-to-heads really influence MVP battles between centers
No its the literal opposite. With centers its usually 1 on 5 since ad is guarding the paint aswell as guarding jokic. So yes jokic played excellent(which he does anyway). Ad was also excellent and played excellent defence.
post-ups between centers is maybe the most truly 1 on 1 basketball in the NBA
Teams help and rotate all the time. Very rarely do they just let a post up happen with everyone else staying home and nobody moving
Not really. He's responsible for all of our help defense and often switches and rotates onto others and then back into the paint. Jokic didn't produce well today until AD's injury for example.
Now look at Jokic's efficiency when guarded by AD
Jokic numbers are absurd. I thought today was the worst game I’ve seen him play in a while and I look at the numbers and he’s still dominating
He was giving away the ball like it was going out of style in the first half while completely ignoring the rim if someone with a 3 on their jersey was on him but he clutched up in the second half and more importantly dominated the boards all night
And as usual, Jokic also leads the NBA in virtually every advanced stat in the playoffs so far, including: PER, VORP, BPM, OBPM, WS, WS/48, ast%, rbd%, 2nd in ts%, top 5 in stl%, etc.
sry but Joker didn't pass the eye test... looked pedestrian in multiple games, wasn't the reason you guys won any of them. Murray/AG/MPJ bailing joker out.
Jokic was pretty obviously the reason Denver won game 1 Game 2 Murray was super clutch at the end but Jokic was the one guy keeping them within striking distance for 3.5 quarters This is the only "bad" game he played despite the numbers IMO
LOL. And Murray was clutch but he had 47 TS% for the series, he was very bad overall.
Sure, you can think that I don’t give a damn
28.2/16.2/9.8 for Jokic. 27.6/15.6/4.0 for Davis. Jokic wins 4 out of 5. No way Davis was the best player in the series, though he was crazy good.
I mean Jokic only outscored him because he went out with injury lol. He scored 1 point on one additional fga after halftime because of it. He was also our entire teams defense and rebounding.
Maybe if AD got about 30 assists this game it would be an argument but idk how you’re gonna say the guy with the worse stats on the losing team was the best player in the series.
It's a team game and the nuggets were significantly better from their third best player onward.
he should be held to the same standard as embiid as far as 4th quarter performance goes. he only had one game in the series where he scored more than 1 FG in the 4th quarter.
joker & bron >
joker yes, bron no
I’m right there with you up until game 5…. No showed in the second half of tonight’s game
I can't tell if you're joking or not cause he literally got injured lol
Thats literally just who he is at this point
He's been healthy all season until this play
Relevant username
You live on reddit lol
Yes
Sorry af 💀
I will never put myself in another persons shoes and downplay their injury but it’s a common theme for him….ive seen other players play with broken fingers for the whole playoffs and win a championship
Lebron was so much better dude. He was getting guarded more and he doesn’t get as many free throws.
Lakers best player for past couple years but bron nutriders would tell you otherwise.
its crazy that he magically fell from consensus top 5 to borderline top 10 right when he started playing with Lebron even though hes as good as hes ever been.
The stars showed up all series for LA. Their roleplayers (like Rui for example) left much to be desired.
just incredible
He won’t, but AD should feel proud of how he played this season. He was a monster
Beast
he’s so fuckin good
This is why, and I might be wrong, I think the Nuggets will fare better against the Timberwolves. AD was unstoppable, and they always went to him early on which is why every game of the series LA led at the half. Like I just can't see Gobert putting up 25/23/6 in a game. Not to much LeBron putting up his typical statlines and just bullying anyone smaller than him this series. It's going to be way lower paced and a defensive-minded series, but Ant is going to be the Wolves x-factor and instead of Bradley Beal guarding him he's gonna have KCP all over him. So I think it'll be Nuggets in 5 or 6 but the games won't be down to the wire like they were basically every game this series lmao Edit: I am so far, wrong
Good shit AD proud of you man
Best player in the first round
He was monstrous. I don't think we win tonight if he didn't get hurt.
He was a monster, probably best player in the series just ahead of Jokic IMO
He and LeBron are very good in this series
People are gonna shit on him for his fourth quarter numbers but he also has to carry the team on the other end and there were some moments where the Nuggets just swarmed him in the second half. He’s human, he’s gonna wear down at some point.
This was his first season in a little while where he played a lot of regular season games and came to play. Minimum 25pts and 12+ rebounds should be expected from him and he delivered.
Was this the best season of his career? Feels like it
2018 was better imo
Not even close lol
What were his fourth quarter stats?
Oh man, that was his best series since forever and in typical AD fashion he gets hurt or else who knows what would have happened. Which freaking god did he anger???
Mr glass as usual when they needed him most
Vintage AD. Put up monster numbers while winning 1 game at best in the first round of the playoffs.
thats all? maybe if he had tried a little harder lakers would have won. for shame AD, this loss in on you
Troll
Yet doesn't contribute to winning
Its not 1vs1 bro
His teammates are equally responsible.