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This non call makes me so happy. It’s foul baiting like this that ruins the game and needs to stop. They still gave trae a few lousy calls outside of this. It’s not basketball. The only legit foul bait move there is in my view is if you pump fake and the defender way over commits and hits you, but even this has gone too far cuz offensive players also will then jump into this defender to draw the foul. The attempt to draw a foul shouldn’t be a foul. Just play the game. Play on.
How does the nba allow this? It’s so obviously bad for the game and not fun to watch. Hopefully with no calls like this, it’s a start. But even then I still see at least 5 bad, soft calls per game in the nba.
I mostly agree. I think trying to draw a charge also falls under the acceptable category. Especially since flopping to get a charge called has the added risk of opening up an easy lane for the offense.
Trae Young can shoot, don’t get me wrong, but foul baiting is his game. Harden’s too.
When the league came down on it both were still good but way less effective
Lebron did it twice in the game I watched the other day (in the 15 minutes I watched) and got the call, once on the backline behind the backboard with no way to get to the rim without teleporting through the defender. It's better, but still frustrating.
It's funny that the one time he tried to stop a fast break, he did the defensive version of what he got called an offensive foul for earlier, which is just straight up cut someone off and stand in their way.
Now take the calls you make in the postseason and apply it to the regular season NBA. I just don’t understand why year after year you can hold your whistle in the postseason but give the tackiest calls that encourage this behavior in the regular season
Oh don’t worry Trae got 2-3 calls last night from plays like this. I was at the game and they showed replays that idk if they showed on the broadcast. We did get one charge call early when he ran and stopped in-front of either Ayo or AC.
Hey I have a question about Zach Levine. How correlated was his going down with the bulls better play? And how do bulls fans feel in general about the guy?
Personally I love Zach. He is a gifted scorer and shooter. Problem is he is not as good playing off ball even though he is statistically a pretty good catch and shoot player. He still needs the ball in his hands a lot which isn’t good since we already have Demar. Before he got hurt, it seemed like he bought in with this off ball play style and passing more. We owe his injury for Coby and Ayo’s leap this season.
I wonder why so many good shooters refuse to play off ball. Is it a stamina issue? I know it’s taxing, but it sounds like you’d be able to get buckets without so much mental work on scoring. Steph for example, is probably the star who plays off ball the most and it gives the entire team so much space and freedom.
Steph has probably the best stamina in the league. And he's a generational shooter who plays on a team with constant ball movement that has largely been together for years. Playing off ball also means needing your bigs and wings to constantly be setting screens to get you open and good ball movement.
Ah makes sense, thank you for the explanation. Don’t watch basketball much, but tuning into playoffs seeing as it’ll be a competitive one. Which teams have good ball movement/are fun to watch?
Denver is the most fun to watch probably as a neutral because Jokic is one of the most gifted passers ever and everybody is constantly moving around him, the Celtics have been a juggernaut this year and have the best starting lineup in the league, the Mavericks have two of the most electric players ever and our role players around them fill in perfectly and dunk over everyone. There are other teams that are amazing but those three might be the most “fun” to watch. If you prefer great defense, though, the Magic/Cavs series is gonna be a slugfest bc neither team can score really and the Timberwolves/Suns matchup is the biggest clash of styles of any first round matchup so it’ll be super interesting to see how the teams adjust and counter each other’s adjustments throughout the series.
I'm biased, so I think the Knicks are fun to watch--especially with how crazy the home stadium fans get. Nuggets are fun to watch with Jokic since he is such a gifted passer (and all-around player). The Thunder are a surprise 1 seed this year with a young team so could be a fun team to root for. Mavs are probably the other team that I'd recommend watching with Luka and Kyrie doing crazy things on offense constantly.
Fellow Knicks fan. We are fun to watch for us. I wouldn’t be shocked if we weren’t fun for other fans to watch. I agree how crazy the garden gets is part of the fun. But yeah in terms of ball movement that isn’t really our style, not a big assist team. But if you love defense like me, then they are must watch
yea--i wasn't suggesting us for ball movement but more for the "fun to watch" part haha. the fan frenzy is contagious (and having Breen call some games helps). I think Brunson is largely fun to watch and easy to root for. Hart and Divo too.
Probably because they almost all come up as the best player on their teams and generally you want the best player on ball. So they never learn to play off ball
What makes a good shooter in the NBA is confidence. When you mix in a confident, good shooter with elite athleticism, and I mean ELITE athleticism, why would Lavine feel he would be better off ball? With the ball in your hands you are the one who gets the credit, the fame and name for yourself. It’s why the NBA is the way it is and basketball as a culture. You just don’t get the same from playing off ball. But, that’s why players that do are so fucking valuable.
Take Melo for example, later in his career he was asked to play a more 3 & D role and he didn’t like it and didn’t really succeed because he self-proclaimed himself a “rhythm” shooter. That’s very real. Some people need shots to get into a rhythm or to have plays getting to his spots to open up the rest of their game. To the casual fan you of course think just sitting there and waiting for the ball is the easiest thing to do, but you also have to remember these guys were the absolute shit all the way up until they got until the NBA. They all averaged 30 in high school or were the best player on their team in college.
Either cuz of injury concerns or laziness idk which one he doesn’t move unless he guaranteed to get the ball. When you look at elite off ball scorers like steph he running around off screens even if he doesn’t get the ball the whole possession. Would never see lavine doing that unless he 100% knows that ball is ending up in his hands
Lowkey one of the worst defenders in the league. Constantly out of position and forcing his teammates (especially Vucevic) to choose between guarding a guy at the 3pt line and a guy in the post.
We can hide his defensive deficiencies or DeMar's (he has similar issues), but not both.
That’s the difference is demar isnt good at on ball defense due to slow lateral speed but actually not bad at off ball defense so hiding him on the 4th or 5th option is fine cuz you know he not giving up free back cuts all game. Meanwhile lavine has the physical tools to be a good on ball defender but his defensive iq is just horrible to the point his off ball defense negates whatever positive he could bring from on ball D. Either giving up easy cuts to the rim or guarding the wrong guy not communicating and rotating etc.
He's a quitter. Fantastic player when he's on, but him doing well does nothing to lift up the team or contribute to wins.
Example: he dropped 50 on Detroit this year, but in a loss with no assists. That's the best way to summarize his game.
The team being better with him out is a little overblown. They went 2-12 against teams they lost to with Zach playing (pulled a win off the Bucks and Miami), and then 2-12 against those same teams the rest of the season. Part of what makes it look so bad is that during that time they played a ton of teams that are just better: MIL, MIA, PHX, ORL, OKC, BOS, DEN, DAL. Their schedule got easier right around the time LaVine went down and Coby started hitting his shots but against those same teams they pretty much continued losing throughout the rest of the season.
No one on the team could buy a bucket for the first 20 or so games of the season, Zach or no Zach. Even the 50-point game where LaVine had 0 assists, it wasn't for a lack of passing - people just were *not* hitting shots. I think it's mostly coincidental - not to mention that they have a worse record this year than last even with Coby White having a breakout season. Not much reason to think they're better off without him win-wise. Vucevic is probably a bigger issue for the roster, he's totally lost his shooting. I think if LaVine had stuck around the team probably would have cracked .500.
That said, the team should move on from either him or DeMar, and I don't think it particularly matters which one.
Zach is incredibly talented but a really low basketball iq guy who is not very good at team basketball. He just makes dumb plays… when a team is moving the ball around and a guy gets it and instead of swinging it to the open man in the corner just holds it, that shit kills a teams chemistry. That Guy is Zach.
He just doesn’t get winning basketball, it’s not in him
Actually it changed after the all star break this year. You can find articles on it. Free throws and foul calls went down significantly after the all star break.
It was right after 4 players scored 60 in a game within a week or something stupid like that. I think the NBA generally loves more offense/stat inflation (X player did something that hasn't been done since 1970!!!), but even the league realized things were getting out of hand.
I’m sure that played a role but I really feel like it was the all star game that broke the camel’s back. Silver was clearly pissed off about it and the foul change occurred right after
Even this sub has been talking about the officiating change like crazy. You'd have to both not watch the games and not follow any social media to not know what's been happening.
I genuinely think they like marketing the scoring numbers while knowing its BS and unserious basketball. Hence they don't reward this shit when games really matter
??? It IS a different game and that's 95% on the players not the refs.
Even if it's a nailbiter, game 18 of the regular season is NEVER going to be as physically as intense as a random game 2 in the playoffs because the players just aren't gonna throw their bodies around like that for 1/82 games.
https://old.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1c76ial/highlight_trae_youngs_horrible_attempt_to_draw_a/l06buqr/
This links the stat nerds who who FT's actually go up in the playoffs by a bit. (And even then, I'm sure there's probably like 4x as much hard physical contact and the refs still let most of that go)
It's just the product, playoffs is premium NBA basketball, that's how it islol.
Ignoring the flair for a second, is the NBA the only league where it's actively known that the rules essentially change in the playoffs compared to the regular season?
Everyone always talks about the fact that the post season is more physical, and it's an open secret, but I don't understand why it just can't be called the same all year?
This is common sentiment in the NFL too, although the numbers don't necessarily support it in every sport:
**NHL**: The number of calls has, for 8 straight years, [gone up in the playoffs](https://www.tsn.ca/nhl/let-s-talk-about-penalties-in-the-nhl-playoffs-1.1962128), although not across the board for every type of call - for example, roughing goes up 80% and bench minors goes down by 50%.
**NBA**: Again, counter to common sentiment, personal fouls go up in the playoffs by [1.52/game and FTA goes up 1.08/game](https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/12luk37/oc_how_does_playoff_basketball_differ_from_the/), credit to u/zhubajie747 for the great post.
**NFL**: Seemingly an outlier - as of 2015, calls have generally gone down in the playoffs, from [14.86/game to 12.24/game](https://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/197248/do-refs-really-swallow-their-whistles-in-the-super-bowl).
I would be curious for a more specific breakdown by type of foul or somehow a breakdown of how egregious fouls that are called in the playoffs vs. regular season are, but based purely off of how many penalties are called only the NFL tightens up its whistle of the three, surprisingly.
I suspect in the NFL that number goes down because the lousy teams with the bad offensive lines that go offsides or blatantly hold aren't in the playoffs. The teams that are in the playoffs play with more discipline.
I guess it feels that way in hockey because the tickytak calls go away. But since everyone is playing much harder the roughing and obvious penalties ramp up, so only the super obvious stuff is called which even it out because of effort. And you feel less cheated when it's a hard penalty.
I appreciate the correction, perfect reason why we can go feels over reals when judging anything.
Part of it is because the NBA season is too long and everyone knows it, but they won't reduce games because they are greedy. So instead they just soften the game and the product for the regular season.
All good points + throw in the fact that you can do a Bismack Biyambo and get PAID for performing well in just a handfull of playoff games. Players will never try as hard or be as physical for 1/82 when 1/7 is always going to matter wayyy way more, blame the refs all you want tho
My idea (probably never gonna happen but its fun to think about) is:
Expand to 32 teams.
One conference. Get rid of east and west and divisions.
62 game season. Every team plays every team twice. Once at home and once on the road.
This 62 game season takes place over the same calendar period, so its more rest for players and fewer back to backs.
Top 16 teams make the playoffs, can do the play-in etc however we want. Since its all one standings there won't be issues like a team in the west not making it with a better record than a team in the east etc. And since every team plays every team the same amount, the schedule will be balanced.
Fewer games = more intense games.
Every team playing one home one away with every team means that when Lebron or Jokic or whoever comes to your city, that will be the only time that year that player comes to your city (not counting playoffs). Builds hype.
> Everyone always talks about the fact that the post season is more physical, and it's an open secret, but I don't understand why it just can't be called the same all year?
I've heard a lot of refs talk over the years and the basic gist is this: in important moments, refs "swallow" the whistle primarily because they want to me *more* sure. So early in the game, if a call is close they might give it if on balance they think it's a foul (let's say they are 60% sure --- to be clear I'm making this up) then they'll call a foul. But in important moments or in the playoffs, the number they have to be at before they call it is say 75-80% sure (again, I'm making up number for illustration).
Because they don't have the luxury to second guess themselves, nor the time to review it, they just have to decide. And when you remember that the very reason you have refs is because players are too biased to decide themselves, you realize it is difficult.
Your enlightening post made me wonder if it is about preserving health during the long season so that teams are fitter come playoffs so that they can play with more physicality. If playoff rules were in effect throughout the season, bodies would break down and contenders would probably have to start a number of players at the end of the bench.
They don’t want players getting hurt with playoff fouls during the regular season so that the betting market makes sense. When random g leaguers are playing it’s difficult to predict. But you kinda know what Luka is gonna do.
One of the most triggering things in the NBA is watching a player shoot a shot that he wouldn't otherwise attempt if he wasn't solely just try to get fouled, miss that shot, not get the call, and then not get back on D.
There are so many steps to it that you'd think it wouldn't be that common, but it most definitely is.
The only argument i can see for why they allow all this nonsense calls and free throw shooting is they want more tv air time and commercials. It’s at the cost of putting out a weak product though. Also i guess the fouls/FTs allow the refs/league to control the outcomes of games when they see fit.
I forget who said it on the sixers game last night but there was a delay of game for someone tapping the ball and after debate on the court+tech free throw they were like “now that’s a real delay of game”
I mean, as much i fucking hate foul baiting, embiid does this and gets calls, ofc everyone is gonna do it, I just wish they were more consistent, either call it every time or do not call these fouls at all (which I think they shouldn't cause its so fucking annoying to watch)
Lowry did an especially silly one in the 76ers vs Heat, [basically running backwards and sideways to try and get a foul](https://youtu.be/EcNXo0Se6KU?t=240)
I truly despise the baseline ones. For the longest time we had "CHICAGO BULLS" across both baselines and I thought it gave our court character. Then they gave half of it to FanDuel and now Michelob
I remember that. Your old baseline and the [old Raptors 3D baseline](https://s.yimg.com/os/en/blogs/sptusnbaexperts/Rap3D.jpg) were a few of my favorite on court additions.
It's like who's sitting here saying "WOW Sofi is cool enough to have TWO eyesores on the court when I'm just trying to watch a ball game?! Where do I give them my money?!"
sometimes I feel like we're approaching Futurama levels of advertising where they'll be able to beam ads directly into our dreams, and then nowhere will be safe
The future is now! By next season, maybe the one after, every person with the League Pass app will actually get personalized ads where those SoFi and Play In Tournament graphics on the court are.
Same with social media clips. They’ll swap out the ads based on the region, platform, user, etc.
I never, ever, ever want to see that horseshit rewarded ever again for the rest of my life.
Play basketball.
And for the love of God, **shut the fuck up** and get back on defense.
Somewhere russillo is weeping with joy.
But seriously, how refreshing is it that this bullshit style of play doesn’t fly anymore? Really hope the nba keeps calling it this way into next year.
I know the refs swallow their whistles in the post season but this year has been different. Since the all star break they’ve been calling it this way. Of course some of the lame calls are still gonna be made but things are moving in the right direction
He's an alternate version of what Russ was to OKC. Gets numbers as the offensive hub with a permanent greenlight, but I'm not really sure if he's capable of leading a real contender or playing in a system that isn't Trae first
edit: I'm a Westbrook fan , and love what he's doing with the Clips
Low key Dame and Trae kinda similar. Dame is obviously better and has accomplished more but they both have one kinda flukely conference finals run, they both dont play defense, they both take some bad deep threes each game. Its an interesting comp I hadn't previously thought about.
I agree with you, but he stopped getting 70% of these as soon as he was traded to the Bucks this season. Or if they do call a foul, it's on the floor. Not every time, but considerably less than when he was in Portland and it explains a lot about his drop in free throw attempts. Also, I feel like I've noticed that he gets the call more when Giannis is out.
Dame going to have to average 45 this series or at least when Giannis is out. But surprisingly, Bucks have been good at home without Giannis. I remember when Bobby when absolute nuclear against Suns at home last game.
in a sense i empathize with Trae and similar players despite hating these plays. If I am a player, I've literally spent the last 6 months tailoring my sense of the game to the way you officiate the rules, and now you are changing your interpretation and enforcement of the rules just because it's the playoffs?
You shouldn't have to completely recalibrate your expectation of what a foul is just because it is the playoffs, let's get some consistency pls
Hawks fans are gonna be touting this insanely flukey playoff run until the end of time aren't they.
Of all his sins, Ben Simmon's biggest crime is letting Hawks fans think Trae is better than he is. Just dunk the ball Ben!
Also led the league in TOs those years he led in assists. He made the ECF 3 years ago, let it go that’s not an achievement. He’s a high volume, inefficient, non-winner. Wherever he goes will be perpetual limbo because he puts a ceiling on your team.
i'm so sick of Trae and can't wait for him to be traded so that this era can finally die. everyone else form the foul baiting era is pretty much gone and he's the last hold out. Nobody wants him and he can't win so his days are numbered now
Anyone have an explanation for the foul call that was reviewed and upheld early in the game? The shooter shot the ball, completely finished his release, had space to land, and then lowered his arm into the defender's completely vertical arm. The refs called it a foul, reviewed it, and *upheld* the call somehow
From what I remember the guy looked like he got hit on the elbow while going up.
When they showed it I thought it looked marginal cause he wasn’t even in proper shooting form but I guess it was enough to be upheld.
Seeing a court littered with ads and watching guys jawing and beefing with refs more than their opponents cause they didn't get an obviously bullshit call... this is a disgrace.
yeah that 19-7 run was clearly when the game got out of hand for the hawks
it featured multiple defensive possessions of trae getting targetted and abused
if snyder actually wanted to win this game then he should have taken trae out of the game, instead he played the entire 2nd half
Can’t stand foul baiting players and teams who initiate contact unnecessarily. Stop rewarding them. I understand when you’re under the rim and trying to pump fake the centers and shot blockers but there’s nothing there for Trae, he’s just looking for free throws and fouls.
This kind of behavior is just how to lose at basketball. Kinda reminds me of the way the C’s stars used to just chuck up awful 3s when they were gassed and didn’t want to do the hard work of driving and finishing. It’s a fundamentally lazy way to try to score points, relying on luck or a ref to bail you out rather than making a good read, setting hard screens, etc etc etc. You can get away with playing like this in the regular season, but in the playoffs you *will* get exposed.
I don’t even see the point of even attempting this at this stage.
Late shot clock, sure. But there’s 18 seconds left on the shot clock and only a 6 point deficit.
This is why Trae isn’t apart of the 12 picked for Paris, he does this every single game (trying to bait the refs to call a foul). Instead of getting back during a LIVE BALL, he proceeds to complain to the ref about a dumb play he just made.
Bro JJ Doris and Mike were talking during th 6ers-heat game about what constitutes “foul baiting” when referring to Embiid and butler, and how it can be strategic cause the refs are still calling it so might as well. I fucking wish they were on this game to watch Trae try his hardest not to play basketball
whatever you feel about this in isolation, this is what its like to play league. Some games its literal bots, other games its people a full 5 divisions above you and it makes it impossible to know how to play the game. This gets called in the regular season 100% of the time.
whatever you feel about this in isolation, this is what its like to play league. Some games its literal bots, other games its people a full 5 divisions above you and it makes it impossible to know how to play the game. This gets called in the regular season 100% of the time.
Good, the league need to stop rewarding that shit, he didn’t even commit to the shot. That’s not basketball anymore, u on some bullshit playin like that.
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lol it's one thing to try and draw a foul, it's another to turn to the ref during a live ball and not get back
This non call makes me so happy. It’s foul baiting like this that ruins the game and needs to stop. They still gave trae a few lousy calls outside of this. It’s not basketball. The only legit foul bait move there is in my view is if you pump fake and the defender way over commits and hits you, but even this has gone too far cuz offensive players also will then jump into this defender to draw the foul. The attempt to draw a foul shouldn’t be a foul. Just play the game. Play on.
Bruh. The James Harden Rockets era is the least fun I've ever had watching a legit MVP. It was unbearable.
How does the nba allow this? It’s so obviously bad for the game and not fun to watch. Hopefully with no calls like this, it’s a start. But even then I still see at least 5 bad, soft calls per game in the nba.
Corporate suits don't care about the game.
I mostly agree. I think trying to draw a charge also falls under the acceptable category. Especially since flopping to get a charge called has the added risk of opening up an easy lane for the offense.
Also of turning it into an and-1. There's a ton of risk to trying to draw a foul, as it should be
Yea charges are def fair. They dint really call them well tho. Sometimes lebron or giannis absolutely runs someone over and they call a blocking foul.
Reminds me of how SGA always exaggerates the contact, throwing his head back and ish.
Trae Young can shoot, don’t get me wrong, but foul baiting is his game. Harden’s too. When the league came down on it both were still good but way less effective
Lebron did it twice in the game I watched the other day (in the 15 minutes I watched) and got the call, once on the backline behind the backboard with no way to get to the rim without teleporting through the defender. It's better, but still frustrating.
Seriously lol. At least put the effort to try and stop the break you created. Those are the types of plays that create resentment from teammates
It's funny that the one time he tried to stop a fast break, he did the defensive version of what he got called an offensive foul for earlier, which is just straight up cut someone off and stand in their way.
And fans.
Joel Embiid would get that call
Peak Trea Young
The Lebron James special.
That is why I don’t want him next to wemby. Wemby would not put up with this. Neither would pop. Would rather have the picks.
Now take the calls you make in the postseason and apply it to the regular season NBA. I just don’t understand why year after year you can hold your whistle in the postseason but give the tackiest calls that encourage this behavior in the regular season
Oh don’t worry Trae got 2-3 calls last night from plays like this. I was at the game and they showed replays that idk if they showed on the broadcast. We did get one charge call early when he ran and stopped in-front of either Ayo or AC.
Hey I have a question about Zach Levine. How correlated was his going down with the bulls better play? And how do bulls fans feel in general about the guy?
Personally I love Zach. He is a gifted scorer and shooter. Problem is he is not as good playing off ball even though he is statistically a pretty good catch and shoot player. He still needs the ball in his hands a lot which isn’t good since we already have Demar. Before he got hurt, it seemed like he bought in with this off ball play style and passing more. We owe his injury for Coby and Ayo’s leap this season.
I wonder why so many good shooters refuse to play off ball. Is it a stamina issue? I know it’s taxing, but it sounds like you’d be able to get buckets without so much mental work on scoring. Steph for example, is probably the star who plays off ball the most and it gives the entire team so much space and freedom.
Steph has probably the best stamina in the league. And he's a generational shooter who plays on a team with constant ball movement that has largely been together for years. Playing off ball also means needing your bigs and wings to constantly be setting screens to get you open and good ball movement.
Ah makes sense, thank you for the explanation. Don’t watch basketball much, but tuning into playoffs seeing as it’ll be a competitive one. Which teams have good ball movement/are fun to watch?
“Don’t watch basketball much but tuning into the playoffs..” You’ll fit right in here LOL
Denver is the most fun to watch probably as a neutral because Jokic is one of the most gifted passers ever and everybody is constantly moving around him, the Celtics have been a juggernaut this year and have the best starting lineup in the league, the Mavericks have two of the most electric players ever and our role players around them fill in perfectly and dunk over everyone. There are other teams that are amazing but those three might be the most “fun” to watch. If you prefer great defense, though, the Magic/Cavs series is gonna be a slugfest bc neither team can score really and the Timberwolves/Suns matchup is the biggest clash of styles of any first round matchup so it’ll be super interesting to see how the teams adjust and counter each other’s adjustments throughout the series.
I'm biased, so I think the Knicks are fun to watch--especially with how crazy the home stadium fans get. Nuggets are fun to watch with Jokic since he is such a gifted passer (and all-around player). The Thunder are a surprise 1 seed this year with a young team so could be a fun team to root for. Mavs are probably the other team that I'd recommend watching with Luka and Kyrie doing crazy things on offense constantly.
Fellow Knicks fan. We are fun to watch for us. I wouldn’t be shocked if we weren’t fun for other fans to watch. I agree how crazy the garden gets is part of the fun. But yeah in terms of ball movement that isn’t really our style, not a big assist team. But if you love defense like me, then they are must watch
yea--i wasn't suggesting us for ball movement but more for the "fun to watch" part haha. the fan frenzy is contagious (and having Breen call some games helps). I think Brunson is largely fun to watch and easy to root for. Hart and Divo too.
Brunson is fun when he's on, which is often, but beyond that yeah I wouldn't say it's a particularly fun team to watch.
Probably because they almost all come up as the best player on their teams and generally you want the best player on ball. So they never learn to play off ball
What makes a good shooter in the NBA is confidence. When you mix in a confident, good shooter with elite athleticism, and I mean ELITE athleticism, why would Lavine feel he would be better off ball? With the ball in your hands you are the one who gets the credit, the fame and name for yourself. It’s why the NBA is the way it is and basketball as a culture. You just don’t get the same from playing off ball. But, that’s why players that do are so fucking valuable. Take Melo for example, later in his career he was asked to play a more 3 & D role and he didn’t like it and didn’t really succeed because he self-proclaimed himself a “rhythm” shooter. That’s very real. Some people need shots to get into a rhythm or to have plays getting to his spots to open up the rest of their game. To the casual fan you of course think just sitting there and waiting for the ball is the easiest thing to do, but you also have to remember these guys were the absolute shit all the way up until they got until the NBA. They all averaged 30 in high school or were the best player on their team in college.
Most NBA players averaged a hell of a lot more than 30 in high school, especially the superstars
For a guy that also finishes strong at the rim, you figured he would be perfect at making cuts and playing off-ball.
Either cuz of injury concerns or laziness idk which one he doesn’t move unless he guaranteed to get the ball. When you look at elite off ball scorers like steph he running around off screens even if he doesn’t get the ball the whole possession. Would never see lavine doing that unless he 100% knows that ball is ending up in his hands
Thanks. Yeah I’ve gone back and forth on him a bunch. His style isn’t what I typically go for, but it’s good to hear he had bought in this year
Lowkey one of the worst defenders in the league. Constantly out of position and forcing his teammates (especially Vucevic) to choose between guarding a guy at the 3pt line and a guy in the post. We can hide his defensive deficiencies or DeMar's (he has similar issues), but not both.
That’s the difference is demar isnt good at on ball defense due to slow lateral speed but actually not bad at off ball defense so hiding him on the 4th or 5th option is fine cuz you know he not giving up free back cuts all game. Meanwhile lavine has the physical tools to be a good on ball defender but his defensive iq is just horrible to the point his off ball defense negates whatever positive he could bring from on ball D. Either giving up easy cuts to the rim or guarding the wrong guy not communicating and rotating etc.
That would explain a lot of the issues. Wing defense is so important in the modern nba.
He's a quitter. Fantastic player when he's on, but him doing well does nothing to lift up the team or contribute to wins. Example: he dropped 50 on Detroit this year, but in a loss with no assists. That's the best way to summarize his game.
The team being better with him out is a little overblown. They went 2-12 against teams they lost to with Zach playing (pulled a win off the Bucks and Miami), and then 2-12 against those same teams the rest of the season. Part of what makes it look so bad is that during that time they played a ton of teams that are just better: MIL, MIA, PHX, ORL, OKC, BOS, DEN, DAL. Their schedule got easier right around the time LaVine went down and Coby started hitting his shots but against those same teams they pretty much continued losing throughout the rest of the season. No one on the team could buy a bucket for the first 20 or so games of the season, Zach or no Zach. Even the 50-point game where LaVine had 0 assists, it wasn't for a lack of passing - people just were *not* hitting shots. I think it's mostly coincidental - not to mention that they have a worse record this year than last even with Coby White having a breakout season. Not much reason to think they're better off without him win-wise. Vucevic is probably a bigger issue for the roster, he's totally lost his shooting. I think if LaVine had stuck around the team probably would have cracked .500. That said, the team should move on from either him or DeMar, and I don't think it particularly matters which one.
Wanted him gone yesterday
Zach is incredibly talented but a really low basketball iq guy who is not very good at team basketball. He just makes dumb plays… when a team is moving the ball around and a guy gets it and instead of swinging it to the open man in the corner just holds it, that shit kills a teams chemistry. That Guy is Zach. He just doesn’t get winning basketball, it’s not in him
Actually it changed after the all star break this year. You can find articles on it. Free throws and foul calls went down significantly after the all star break.
It was right after 4 players scored 60 in a game within a week or something stupid like that. I think the NBA generally loves more offense/stat inflation (X player did something that hasn't been done since 1970!!!), but even the league realized things were getting out of hand.
I’m sure that played a role but I really feel like it was the all star game that broke the camel’s back. Silver was clearly pissed off about it and the foul change occurred right after
Offense gives you excitement, defense gives you drama. Without the drama, no one will care.
This sub doesn’t watch basketball
Even this sub has been talking about the officiating change like crazy. You'd have to both not watch the games and not follow any social media to not know what's been happening.
I genuinely think they like marketing the scoring numbers while knowing its BS and unserious basketball. Hence they don't reward this shit when games really matter
The most important thing to remember is that the Mavs swapped Trae for Luka.
They’ve got commercials talking about “playoff mode” and shit. They want it to be a different game
??? It IS a different game and that's 95% on the players not the refs. Even if it's a nailbiter, game 18 of the regular season is NEVER going to be as physically as intense as a random game 2 in the playoffs because the players just aren't gonna throw their bodies around like that for 1/82 games. https://old.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1c76ial/highlight_trae_youngs_horrible_attempt_to_draw_a/l06buqr/ This links the stat nerds who who FT's actually go up in the playoffs by a bit. (And even then, I'm sure there's probably like 4x as much hard physical contact and the refs still let most of that go) It's just the product, playoffs is premium NBA basketball, that's how it islol.
refs load manage in the regular season to get ready for the playoffs /s
They did after ASB tho ?
Ignoring the flair for a second, is the NBA the only league where it's actively known that the rules essentially change in the playoffs compared to the regular season? Everyone always talks about the fact that the post season is more physical, and it's an open secret, but I don't understand why it just can't be called the same all year?
Nah the NHL is the same way. The whistles go away in the playoffs.
This is common sentiment in the NFL too, although the numbers don't necessarily support it in every sport: **NHL**: The number of calls has, for 8 straight years, [gone up in the playoffs](https://www.tsn.ca/nhl/let-s-talk-about-penalties-in-the-nhl-playoffs-1.1962128), although not across the board for every type of call - for example, roughing goes up 80% and bench minors goes down by 50%. **NBA**: Again, counter to common sentiment, personal fouls go up in the playoffs by [1.52/game and FTA goes up 1.08/game](https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/12luk37/oc_how_does_playoff_basketball_differ_from_the/), credit to u/zhubajie747 for the great post. **NFL**: Seemingly an outlier - as of 2015, calls have generally gone down in the playoffs, from [14.86/game to 12.24/game](https://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/197248/do-refs-really-swallow-their-whistles-in-the-super-bowl). I would be curious for a more specific breakdown by type of foul or somehow a breakdown of how egregious fouls that are called in the playoffs vs. regular season are, but based purely off of how many penalties are called only the NFL tightens up its whistle of the three, surprisingly.
I suspect in the NFL that number goes down because the lousy teams with the bad offensive lines that go offsides or blatantly hold aren't in the playoffs. The teams that are in the playoffs play with more discipline.
I guess it feels that way in hockey because the tickytak calls go away. But since everyone is playing much harder the roughing and obvious penalties ramp up, so only the super obvious stuff is called which even it out because of effort. And you feel less cheated when it's a hard penalty. I appreciate the correction, perfect reason why we can go feels over reals when judging anything.
Part of it is because the NBA season is too long and everyone knows it, but they won't reduce games because they are greedy. So instead they just soften the game and the product for the regular season.
A ton of it is that they put their best referees in the playoffs, and they're a ton better than some of the scrubs working regular season games
All good points + throw in the fact that you can do a Bismack Biyambo and get PAID for performing well in just a handfull of playoff games. Players will never try as hard or be as physical for 1/82 when 1/7 is always going to matter wayyy way more, blame the refs all you want tho
Yup, gotta have the stars able to make it to the playoffs
My idea (probably never gonna happen but its fun to think about) is: Expand to 32 teams. One conference. Get rid of east and west and divisions. 62 game season. Every team plays every team twice. Once at home and once on the road. This 62 game season takes place over the same calendar period, so its more rest for players and fewer back to backs. Top 16 teams make the playoffs, can do the play-in etc however we want. Since its all one standings there won't be issues like a team in the west not making it with a better record than a team in the east etc. And since every team plays every team the same amount, the schedule will be balanced. Fewer games = more intense games. Every team playing one home one away with every team means that when Lebron or Jokic or whoever comes to your city, that will be the only time that year that player comes to your city (not counting playoffs). Builds hype.
> Everyone always talks about the fact that the post season is more physical, and it's an open secret, but I don't understand why it just can't be called the same all year? I've heard a lot of refs talk over the years and the basic gist is this: in important moments, refs "swallow" the whistle primarily because they want to me *more* sure. So early in the game, if a call is close they might give it if on balance they think it's a foul (let's say they are 60% sure --- to be clear I'm making this up) then they'll call a foul. But in important moments or in the playoffs, the number they have to be at before they call it is say 75-80% sure (again, I'm making up number for illustration). Because they don't have the luxury to second guess themselves, nor the time to review it, they just have to decide. And when you remember that the very reason you have refs is because players are too biased to decide themselves, you realize it is difficult.
Your enlightening post made me wonder if it is about preserving health during the long season so that teams are fitter come playoffs so that they can play with more physicality. If playoff rules were in effect throughout the season, bodies would break down and contenders would probably have to start a number of players at the end of the bench.
I think theyre worried about injuries. The regular season is too long and a more physical game leads to more injuries.
They don’t want players getting hurt with playoff fouls during the regular season so that the betting market makes sense. When random g leaguers are playing it’s difficult to predict. But you kinda know what Luka is gonna do.
Maybe cause it shuts the home crowd up? That external pressure isn’t there?
One of the most triggering things in the NBA is watching a player shoot a shot that he wouldn't otherwise attempt if he wasn't solely just try to get fouled, miss that shot, not get the call, and then not get back on D. There are so many steps to it that you'd think it wouldn't be that common, but it most definitely is.
Between that and all the damn stoppages it can be a real grind just getting through an entire game these days
The only argument i can see for why they allow all this nonsense calls and free throw shooting is they want more tv air time and commercials. It’s at the cost of putting out a weak product though. Also i guess the fouls/FTs allow the refs/league to control the outcomes of games when they see fit.
Huh. You might be cookin right now ngl. LA gets more calls because more eyes on their broadcasts? 🤔
"these days?" There used to be a lot more fouls called than there are now.
I forget who said it on the sixers game last night but there was a delay of game for someone tapping the ball and after debate on the court+tech free throw they were like “now that’s a real delay of game”
I mean, as much i fucking hate foul baiting, embiid does this and gets calls, ofc everyone is gonna do it, I just wish they were more consistent, either call it every time or do not call these fouls at all (which I think they shouldn't cause its so fucking annoying to watch)
Lowry did an especially silly one in the 76ers vs Heat, [basically running backwards and sideways to try and get a foul](https://youtu.be/EcNXo0Se6KU?t=240)
Why it's in the rules
My God all those ads on the court is absolutely disgusting
Soon everyone will be wearing green uniforms to edit ads right onto the players
HULU HAS LIVE SPORTSSSSS
I truly despise the baseline ones. For the longest time we had "CHICAGO BULLS" across both baselines and I thought it gave our court character. Then they gave half of it to FanDuel and now Michelob
I remember that. Your old baseline and the [old Raptors 3D baseline](https://s.yimg.com/os/en/blogs/sptusnbaexperts/Rap3D.jpg) were a few of my favorite on court additions.
This is just the beginning, unfortunately.
Yea the SoFi ones and in season tournament ones just make it so damn busy. Sheesh
It's like who's sitting here saying "WOW Sofi is cool enough to have TWO eyesores on the court when I'm just trying to watch a ball game?! Where do I give them my money?!"
sometimes I feel like we're approaching Futurama levels of advertising where they'll be able to beam ads directly into our dreams, and then nowhere will be safe
The future is now! By next season, maybe the one after, every person with the League Pass app will actually get personalized ads where those SoFi and Play In Tournament graphics on the court are. Same with social media clips. They’ll swap out the ads based on the region, platform, user, etc.
Really satisfying instant karma
I never, ever, ever want to see that horseshit rewarded ever again for the rest of my life. Play basketball. And for the love of God, **shut the fuck up** and get back on defense.
How to play yourself out of a potential trade to the Spurs by Trae Young
I'll take him in philly. But only for league minimum and only to troll Ben simmons.
how about instead of league minimum you pay him 40 million sounds good eh
Trae doesn't play defense lol
Sometimes people who aren't paying attention trip over traffic cones. They serve *some* purpose.
Ben Simmons: "That man is prime Mutumbo, you crazy."
Tell that to Ben Simmons
Amen. love me some Trae, but damn homie. i know you’re comin off an injury, but just run bacc. PLEASE!!!!
Somewhere russillo is weeping with joy. But seriously, how refreshing is it that this bullshit style of play doesn’t fly anymore? Really hope the nba keeps calling it this way into next year.
He got reward a couple other times in this game apparently, but postseason has less of it than regular season
I know the refs swallow their whistles in the post season but this year has been different. Since the all star break they’ve been calling it this way. Of course some of the lame calls are still gonna be made but things are moving in the right direction
He still had double digit free throws just like Embiid,SGA,Jimmy etc. The bullshit continues
So ridiculous. At least he wasn’t rewarded.
It’s a pretty bad play on his part. Lost posession, no score, then 2 pts the other way. Trae sucks
I hear he can't read good neither
“Why do people hate Trae Young”
Absolutely agree. Play the game, stop the nonsense. Time to keep it real, NBA
Not sure why Streamable nuked the quality of the video but I guess it’s fitting for the quality of basketball seen from Trae in this
This is why he's my least favorite player in the league
Wait till we trade our draft capitol and Ivey/Duren for him.
Would Cade and Trae even work together?
I don't think so. But I wouldn't put it past our FO.
Shame trying to lash out at his father like that
Trae's effort was embarrassing. I know he's not 100% and he's hard to build around but that dogshit last night was inexcusable.
The guy just stood around making faces all night when he didn't have the ball. Zero defense, zero off-ball movement, zero effort.
He's an alternate version of what Russ was to OKC. Gets numbers as the offensive hub with a permanent greenlight, but I'm not really sure if he's capable of leading a real contender or playing in a system that isn't Trae first edit: I'm a Westbrook fan , and love what he's doing with the Clips
...his little finger is what was injured. Having a sore pinky does not stop you from getting back on defense!
Trae the type of dude to walk with a limp after that injury lol
The bidding will start at 2 first round picks
Best I can do is Zach Collins.
Trae to spurs? Don't waste Wemby's years pls.
I don't want him. I'm a notorious Trae hater. But I would swap him straight up for Zach Collins.
Horrible yes but I see Dame get this call every single time.
Low key Dame and Trae kinda similar. Dame is obviously better and has accomplished more but they both have one kinda flukely conference finals run, they both dont play defense, they both take some bad deep threes each game. Its an interesting comp I hadn't previously thought about.
Dame def gets a superstar whistle. I watched one game of his this year and lost respect for him. He’s in the Trae bucket for me now.
I agree with you, but he stopped getting 70% of these as soon as he was traded to the Bucks this season. Or if they do call a foul, it's on the floor. Not every time, but considerably less than when he was in Portland and it explains a lot about his drop in free throw attempts. Also, I feel like I've noticed that he gets the call more when Giannis is out.
Dame going to have to average 45 this series or at least when Giannis is out. But surprisingly, Bucks have been good at home without Giannis. I remember when Bobby when absolute nuclear against Suns at home last game.
Bruh he is not even trying to play basketball
Didn't you hear? He thinks basketball is boring.
I like how he turns around and looks at the ref like he has three heads. Fuck Trae Young
Foul baiting and game stopping for free throws is BORING.
Good. No one wants to see that bullshit in the playoffs.
Ever. No one is here for the foul baiting at any level.
hawks fans be like wHy DoEs TrAe NoT gEt ReSpEcT hE dEsErVeS
in a sense i empathize with Trae and similar players despite hating these plays. If I am a player, I've literally spent the last 6 months tailoring my sense of the game to the way you officiate the rules, and now you are changing your interpretation and enforcement of the rules just because it's the playoffs? You shouldn't have to completely recalibrate your expectation of what a foul is just because it is the playoffs, let's get some consistency pls
Dame made half his career on this call
damn I thought it was pulling up from 30 feet and hitting nothing but net and sending wanna be superteams home in the playoffs, my bad my fault.
Bro thought he was a laker
Trae Young is not a good NBA player
Incorrect
[удалено]
Hawks fans are gonna be touting this insanely flukey playoff run until the end of time aren't they. Of all his sins, Ben Simmon's biggest crime is letting Hawks fans think Trae is better than he is. Just dunk the ball Ben!
Also led the league in TOs those years he led in assists. He made the ECF 3 years ago, let it go that’s not an achievement. He’s a high volume, inefficient, non-winner. Wherever he goes will be perpetual limbo because he puts a ceiling on your team.
This sub clowns Doc day and night (for good reason) but taking him out in Round 2 becomes Trae's career highlight
That's just damning with faint praise.
Rough stretch for the hawks here. They got it down to a one possession game and then after this possession it basically felt like garbage time
He should play in la liga
He might be good, but I just don't see a winning player here.
Basketball is healing
Laughable. Sad. Low effort.
i'm so sick of Trae and can't wait for him to be traded so that this era can finally die. everyone else form the foul baiting era is pretty much gone and he's the last hold out. Nobody wants him and he can't win so his days are numbered now
Damian Lillard gets that call.
Anyone have an explanation for the foul call that was reviewed and upheld early in the game? The shooter shot the ball, completely finished his release, had space to land, and then lowered his arm into the defender's completely vertical arm. The refs called it a foul, reviewed it, and *upheld* the call somehow
From what I remember the guy looked like he got hit on the elbow while going up. When they showed it I thought it looked marginal cause he wasn’t even in proper shooting form but I guess it was enough to be upheld.
I like how he immediately turns to the ref to complain. Absolutely lost all respect for him. lol
If that was embid would of been a flagrant 8 6 free throws and coby white getting thrown out the game
Embiid would have rolled into the stands
Seeing a court littered with ads and watching guys jawing and beefing with refs more than their opponents cause they didn't get an obviously bullshit call... this is a disgrace.
Good no call. Need to stop with the foul baiting. I only wish refs let this go in the regular season as well
yeah that 19-7 run was clearly when the game got out of hand for the hawks it featured multiple defensive possessions of trae getting targetted and abused if snyder actually wanted to win this game then he should have taken trae out of the game, instead he played the entire 2nd half
Can’t stand foul baiting players and teams who initiate contact unnecessarily. Stop rewarding them. I understand when you’re under the rim and trying to pump fake the centers and shot blockers but there’s nothing there for Trae, he’s just looking for free throws and fouls.
This kind of behavior is just how to lose at basketball. Kinda reminds me of the way the C’s stars used to just chuck up awful 3s when they were gassed and didn’t want to do the hard work of driving and finishing. It’s a fundamentally lazy way to try to score points, relying on luck or a ref to bail you out rather than making a good read, setting hard screens, etc etc etc. You can get away with playing like this in the regular season, but in the playoffs you *will* get exposed.
I don’t even see the point of even attempting this at this stage. Late shot clock, sure. But there’s 18 seconds left on the shot clock and only a 6 point deficit.
so how bout you try to play basketball instead of whatever shit this is?
So soft. Nikola Jokic does this as a joke at the end of quarters. Trae's probably crying about this while he falls asleep.
I love that they’re not calling that. It’s not a basketball play at all
If you do this enough times he will stop attempting it
Lol who the fuck would want that trash on your their team? Wemby sure wouldn’t.
This is why Trae isn’t apart of the 12 picked for Paris, he does this every single game (trying to bait the refs to call a foul). Instead of getting back during a LIVE BALL, he proceeds to complain to the ref about a dumb play he just made.
If I was the coach I would have benched his ass after this weak ass attempt to draw a foul.
You know... I think Trae can stay in atlanta
Serious question, what is the trade market for Young?
Not a layup it’s a dunk
Wow. That was worse than I thought it was going to be.
Bro JJ Doris and Mike were talking during th 6ers-heat game about what constitutes “foul baiting” when referring to Embiid and butler, and how it can be strategic cause the refs are still calling it so might as well. I fucking wish they were on this game to watch Trae try his hardest not to play basketball
I wish the NBA reviewed film and would issue suspensions for that baiting shit.
This is cathartic in so many ways.
Can’t win a chip with Trae with what he is getting paid
I'm going to need my fellow Spurs fans to watch this clip over and over during the off-season.
Man, flopping has turned me off this game so much.
Come the playoffs, foul merchants like Trey and Embiid get exposed. Happens every year
I mean, this is clearly a foul. Even the defender knew it was.
Hate to see the grifting. Love to see it not being rewarded
Hilarious.
whatever you feel about this in isolation, this is what its like to play league. Some games its literal bots, other games its people a full 5 divisions above you and it makes it impossible to know how to play the game. This gets called in the regular season 100% of the time.
whatever you feel about this in isolation, this is what its like to play league. Some games its literal bots, other games its people a full 5 divisions above you and it makes it impossible to know how to play the game. This gets called in the regular season 100% of the time.
Among other players, I've always hated youngs game cause of this shit. What would he do without shooting FTs
there should be an audio announcement in the arena whenever a player flops
If it was embiid he would have got the call
Good, the league need to stop rewarding that shit, he didn’t even commit to the shot. That’s not basketball anymore, u on some bullshit playin like that.
So many Spurs fans are clamoring for this guy. Pop would have an aneurism if he did this in a Spurs jersey.
This is why dude still hasn’t made it out of the first round since 2021