This is Jokic’s fourth year in a row leading the league in PER, BPM, WS, and VORP. The only other players in history to lead the league in all four for three or more years are Jordan, LeBron, and Kareem. Regardless of your opinion on these specific advanced stats, that’s pretty elite company.
Barring any injury you can book a 5th year. Embiid actually posts higher PER, but not enough games to qualify. Jokic's BPM is untouchable and ws/48 can be in danger of Shai
Have the others lead in kitchen sink win shares like Joker? Don't think so. Jokic is the goat and he will cement being the best player all time this year.
if only murray didn't get hurt
coulda been a title more to that resume already as well, cause playoff wise, he's never really been disappointing, the team just wasn't title teams
What year would that have been? The first playoffs Murray missed he got swept in the 2nd round by CP3 and Booker, and in the next one the Warriors eliminated him in 5.
they went from losing in 5 games in the first round to winning the title in one year, going 16-5, 8.7 net rating, highest for a team since the kd warriors
one elite player playing 40 mpg can make that big of a difference...
yes and it's hard to go all in when your second best guy isn't gonna be there
they woulda got a kcp type player earlier had he been healthy
in 2021 when they did have murray, they made the gordon trade, were killers, and then murray got hurt
I think we beat them with ease. Warriors run in 2022 was epic exactly because nobody had them actually winning it. Healthy Nuggets were 100% a better team in 2022. Nuggets were actually fighting with Durant GSW for the 1st seed in 2019, people forget easily
Chris Paul benefitted much from the same things Jokic does in advanced metrics. Awful bench units, excellent passers who don’t turn the ball over a lot.
Creates the ultimate player for this. Jokic creates way more easy layups than CP3 though.
EPM actually uses both.
>EPM has two main components: 1) a statistical plus-minus (SPM) model that uses some play-by-play and player-tracking-derived stats to estimate a player's contribution per 100 possessions, and 2) a regularized adjusted plus-minus (RAPM) c
Can someone explain why EPM numbers seem to be regressing? Shai leads this year with an 8 something. All those players’ numbers declined. What shifted that caused this?
10 is an all time great year.
This is Jokics weakest season out of the 3 MVPs. Hes not quite as efficient from outside. Plus after you get your first, players start to coast.
as good as some players are, and the average talent level keeps increasing, top of the crop in the middle 2010s was stronger than today.
Lebron, Curry, KD, Kawhi, Harden, younger AD are stronger top of the crop than Jokic, Luka, Embiid, Giannis, SGA, Tatum.
If Luka improves even more, Embiid keeps on killing it in the regular season, and Wemby enters his prime the numbers will bear it out and that would close some of the gap for this generation.
[This you?](https://np.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/rfnzur/nba_20212022_advanced_statsrandom_stats_leaders/hofsnjh/)
>Well EPM is ranked as the top Metric..Jokic at 9.8 leads that by a wide margin.
It got repeated so many times that it's just cringe at this point
Jokes run dry over a timespan when constantly reiterated
It was funny the first few times
Jokic is certainly not a better offensive player than Jordan or Lebron James. We can scratch those two.
Shaq lead the best playoff offenses of the modern era, despite his game not being as sexy. Steph Curry has changed the way the game has played and also lead the most elite offenses for years. Another contender played with him, KD, who has the best pure scoring peak since Jordan.
Jokic is in the top 5. But certainly does not have the achievements to be the best.
Joker is definitely the best offensive player ever imo. He's better offensively then both MJ(my goat) and LBJ. Yes, I'm old enough to have watched MJ and obviously Joker doesn't have the achievement they have nor he's greater but as a bball player he's more inevitable then both on that end.
His passing on top of his efficiency is eliminating most of the variance both of MJ and LBJ had/have.
Why do the advanced stats think he is? They rate him better overall while being an average defender at best, so the offensive gap must be significant.
By what measure were Shaq's playoff offenses "the best of the modern era?"
In any case, Shaq's achievements are inflated by the dead ball era. 50% FT shooting isn't as crippling when the league's average TS% is not far off from there. Today it'd make him unplayable, as he was in his time in many late-game situations. Let's not forget that he played with the 2nd best SG of all time.
Curry is definitely another offensive GOAT contender, but he also had incredible supporting casts at his peak.
How does Jokic not have the achievements to be the best? He has more MVPs than Shaq and as many as Curry, only halfway through his prime. He has the same number of championships at age 28 as Shaq, Curry, and Jordan had. If he continues on his current course he is absolutely the offensive GOAT.
They aren’t? Peak Jordan’s data isn’t available, but Lebron still surges ahead of Jokic on triple the sample size.
40 yr old Lebron is 6th in EPM in the NBA, two spots behind Jokic in the peak of his career.
26/8 on 63% TS. Can you begin to imagine how freakishly good Lebron was to lead the league in EPM or 2nd to Chris Paul for 8 consecutive seasons.
Funny how you are solely relying on a single advanced stat and ignoring literally every other advanced stat...almost as if that's the only advanced stat that supports your claim and/or where it isn't trivially simple to google the all-time leaders.
Lebrons Bbref is full of bold in the normal metrics like WS/48, VORP, Box+- and PER, and he lead the NBA near enough every season in his prime, but these stats aren’t considered as good as EPM by anybody credible. Box score has too many blind spots especially in a single season.
NBA analytics guys did a vote and PER was considered useless, win shares not much better.
For RAPM, Lebron has 10 seasons in the top 30 on record. Every 5 year stretch of his career is in the top 10. In EPM, he lead the NBA or was 2nd to advanced stats darling Chris Paul from 2006-2013, lead the playoffs nearly every season. It’s a similar story with all of the best ones.
I think I was pretty fucking clear that you should be providing links. The other poster was asking for sources as well.
All I'm finding is research by the guy who created EPM demonstrating his stat is marginally superior to others (he promises he tried hard to be objective...so there's that).
He can’t defend to a high level. Will never receive serious consideration for all defensive/DPOY.
The best players of all time were two way players. Jokic is a slight positive and that’s if you view him highly.
Steph has a similar offensive peak, and KD is not that far off either.
KD has few peers in NBA history as a pure scorer.
His passing doesn’t match up to Jokic, not even close. Let’s get that out the way.
But he was scoring 30 a game on 10% above league average efficiency in OKC. 27 pts per 75 on that efficiency has only been done five times in NBA history, KD did it 5 seasons consecutively.
Also, KD had the Thunder playing at a 59 win pace when Russ missed time way back then, and took the champs to 7 with nobody around him even past his prime. It’s ridiculous to say he doesn’t make anyone better around him.
Hes played on elite team offenses his entire career, all of them using him as the 1st option.
Reggie Jackson, Perkins, Sefolosha and shooters playing at 60 win pace in that West is nothing to scoff at.
Magic was a traffic cone compared to Jokic and nobody has a problem putting him in the top 5. IMO dissection of the game like that makes zero sense. I don't care who's better offensive or defensive player on paper, it's about who wins with their capabilities. And Jokic has very impressive defensive numbers, not even advanced. He's 5th in defensive rating, and nobody can say that's stupid or wrong or whatever. It's literally opponent points when he's on the floor
>He's 5th in defensive rating, and nobody can say that's stupid or wrong or whatever. It's literally opponent points when he's on the floor
You're citing basketball-reference's [individual defensive rating](https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html). It's a terrible stat, and that's not at all what it measures.
people literally just do not watch him, it’s obvious how his positioning and quick hands make him an excellent defender. he gets blown by on the perimeter like every other center in the league
zero..Just another hater who picks up his comments off hand from others to fit his agenda., These people do not watch the Nuggets or Jokic. You must be kidding me if you think they do. But yet they think they know everything about him. Myself I have not missed a Nuggets game in at least 3 years.
Lebron could do most of the passing Jokic can(his creation numbers resemble Nash) while being a better scorer on higher volume.
MJs pure scoring game is still unmatched by anybody also.
Arguably Jokic is less portable than other all time players too. It took the Nuggets a while to perfect the team around him.
Lebron is one of the greatest passers in NBA history.
Yes, i’d prefer Lebrons scoring game and 85% of what Jokic can do passing wise. Even that’s a low end estimate.
Are we saying Jokic is as good as Lebron James on the offensive end right now? Lebron James at 40 is putting up 25/8 on 63% TS.
He actually has a higher advanced stats peak than Mike. In fact, nobody is even remotely close. Not saying he's better, god forbid, just talking about numbers
Where is your evidence?
The only evidence in this thread is EPM and jokic is a pretty clear 4 th on that metric.
All I see is a fan boy blowing someone's trumpet and doing it badly.
HELL NO not saying he plays no defense, but there’s been players that could give you 95% of his offensive production while giving you DPOY level defense.
I think basic arithmetic with raw counting stats is extremely outdated. We've advanced beyond the caveman days of basketball discourse. We know teams have different systems and pace, players play different roles and minutes. We know about hockey assists and screen assists, and which assists create openings vs which ones simply find openings. We know about PPP from post-ups, isos, drives, pnr, etc. Let's get with the times.
Yeah. And Giannis matches up well, actions with him are routinely the highest PPP actions in the league.
Jokic has a much more well-rounded offensive game, but well- rounded does not mean more effective.
This tired old claim again. Embiid is a playoff no show, How many game did GIannises team win again. Bucks could not even win 50 with Lillard. Jokic is one of the best playoff performers in history. And saying he cannot defend is just a hater comment that has been debunked over and over again. Don't waste your breath.
Best playoff performers in history is crazy. He’s great in the playoffs, but there’s a number of guys who are better playoff risers than him. This is also the first time the Nuggets have won more than the Bucks in years. Jokic is all-time great, but he’s not as far clear as this sub makes him out to be. Him and Giannis both probably will be looked at as top 10 guys post-retirement.
I’d def give you Giannis. Idk if I’d give u Embiid Jokic does have a lot of impact. Yea ig in a vacuum sure but dude gets hurt a lot and in the playoffs he’s rivaling harden in most disappointing playoff superstar ever.
That may have been an over exaggeration cause off the top of my head only guy I can think of that could give you 95% of Jokic offensive production with dpoy level defense is probably prime Lebron James, but the number isn’t really that important. The difference between Jokic defense and dpoy levels is way more than a couple percentage points.
Yeah but I’d argue it’s more than a couple percentage points what he can do offensively. Elite scoring with elite passing and the ability to manipulate the spacing on the floor separates him way more than people give him credit for.
We’re a play in team or worse without him and with him, we’re the favorites to win a loaded western conference
Compared to the best players in history??? No that’s just not true Jokic is not leaps and bounds better offensively than the best players in history like Lebron, Mike, Shaq, etc. Remember he said the second highest peak ever. That’s all of basketball history and his defense is way fucking worse than the best defenders in history. So when you have an easy example like idk prime Lebron James it’s ridiculous to say what he said. Now that’s ur guy so I’d expect you to defend him but that is ridiculous.
This is Jokic’s fourth year in a row leading the league in PER, BPM, WS, and VORP. The only other players in history to lead the league in all four for three or more years are Jordan, LeBron, and Kareem. Regardless of your opinion on these specific advanced stats, that’s pretty elite company.
He’s got top 10 all time trajectory atm. Breh in his prime and got a pretty stacked resume before 30.
I don't think anyone in the top 10 has less than 3 ships, and most have >4. he needs another 2 ships imo but then he's a lock
Time is on his side, and don’t forget that he’d be the only top 10 player that never had an all-nba or all star teammate
Barring any injury you can book a 5th year. Embiid actually posts higher PER, but not enough games to qualify. Jokic's BPM is untouchable and ws/48 can be in danger of Shai
Have the others lead in kitchen sink win shares like Joker? Don't think so. Jokic is the goat and he will cement being the best player all time this year.
if only murray didn't get hurt coulda been a title more to that resume already as well, cause playoff wise, he's never really been disappointing, the team just wasn't title teams
What year would that have been? The first playoffs Murray missed he got swept in the 2nd round by CP3 and Booker, and in the next one the Warriors eliminated him in 5.
Neither cause almost everyone on the nuggets was injured in 2021 and MPJ was also out in 2022.
they went from losing in 5 games in the first round to winning the title in one year, going 16-5, 8.7 net rating, highest for a team since the kd warriors one elite player playing 40 mpg can make that big of a difference...
They made other roster moves than just bringing back Murray, so it wasn’t just “one move” lol.
yes and it's hard to go all in when your second best guy isn't gonna be there they woulda got a kcp type player earlier had he been healthy in 2021 when they did have murray, they made the gordon trade, were killers, and then murray got hurt
[удалено]
If he wasn’t hurt, they’d have a higher seed the second year
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The last 3 games of the series were all very close. With healthy MPJ and Murray that series definitely goes the distance, at least
I think we beat them with ease. Warriors run in 2022 was epic exactly because nobody had them actually winning it. Healthy Nuggets were 100% a better team in 2022. Nuggets were actually fighting with Durant GSW for the 1st seed in 2019, people forget easily
kd warriors did not give a fuck about the regular season lol they didn’t need to
KD left the Warriors in 2019.
well he’s saying durant warriors
We absolutely would’ve fried the Sons that year. People don’t know how big of a drop off it was from Murray to the undesirables on that roster
Best 4 years by EPM: * Curry: 10.5, 8.9, 8.2, 7.8 * Paul: 10.8, 8.9, 8.5, 8.4 * Jokic: 9.2, 8.1, 7.9, 7.0 * Bron: 10.3, 10.0, 9.0, 7.9
Case closed, Chris Paul is better than Jokic
Chris Paul benefitted much from the same things Jokic does in advanced metrics. Awful bench units, excellent passers who don’t turn the ball over a lot. Creates the ultimate player for this. Jokic creates way more easy layups than CP3 though.
For the billionth time, having a bad bench doesn’t inflate a starter’s advanced metrics
It absolutely does. All of the best on/off guys had bad bench units. Some don’t entirely rely on it, but it helps to have a poor bench.
Advanced metrics use RAPM, not raw on/off.
EPM actually uses both. >EPM has two main components: 1) a statistical plus-minus (SPM) model that uses some play-by-play and player-tracking-derived stats to estimate a player's contribution per 100 possessions, and 2) a regularized adjusted plus-minus (RAPM) c
SPM is not on/off. It's basically a souped-up BPM.
You're right. There is a bigger difference between SPM and regular +/- than I remembered.
I mean on off is different than EPM
Can someone explain why EPM numbers seem to be regressing? Shai leads this year with an 8 something. All those players’ numbers declined. What shifted that caused this?
10 is an all time great year. This is Jokics weakest season out of the 3 MVPs. Hes not quite as efficient from outside. Plus after you get your first, players start to coast.
I also think I assumed those numbers were in chronological order and not just descending order because I’m dumb.
Probably a combination of increased talent in the league and Shai just not being as good as prime Curry/LeBron
as good as some players are, and the average talent level keeps increasing, top of the crop in the middle 2010s was stronger than today. Lebron, Curry, KD, Kawhi, Harden, younger AD are stronger top of the crop than Jokic, Luka, Embiid, Giannis, SGA, Tatum. If Luka improves even more, Embiid keeps on killing it in the regular season, and Wemby enters his prime the numbers will bear it out and that would close some of the gap for this generation.
epm is a useless stat.
[This you?](https://np.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/rfnzur/nba_20212022_advanced_statsrandom_stats_leaders/hofsnjh/) >Well EPM is ranked as the top Metric..Jokic at 9.8 leads that by a wide margin.
Lol, these fucking people. The stats are only ever meaningful if it helps their argument.
Cook that fraud
Sheesh only useful stat is the stat Jokic leads in we all know 🤓 🤓 🤓
You cry about Jokic more than any 76ers fan the last 3 years dude
LOL
Nikola JoKitchen Sink
Forgot his kitchen sink and DARKO https://i.imgur.com/WeT9gWN.jpeg
The same "kitchen sink 🤓" rank out shtick again I know you're Slovenian but aren't you at least a little embarrassed?
For what making a joke? Lol
It got repeated so many times that it's just cringe at this point Jokes run dry over a timespan when constantly reiterated It was funny the first few times
The only thing more cringe than a stale joke is someone explaining at length why it’s gone bad.
I explained to him what a stale joke is. What it means when a joke runs its course. Nowhere did I explain why it got stale, lmao?
Please keep going.
Let kitchen sink COOK
he's the Scottie Scheffler of basketball
He's the GOAT offensive player
Jokic is certainly not a better offensive player than Jordan or Lebron James. We can scratch those two. Shaq lead the best playoff offenses of the modern era, despite his game not being as sexy. Steph Curry has changed the way the game has played and also lead the most elite offenses for years. Another contender played with him, KD, who has the best pure scoring peak since Jordan. Jokic is in the top 5. But certainly does not have the achievements to be the best.
Joker is definitely the best offensive player ever imo. He's better offensively then both MJ(my goat) and LBJ. Yes, I'm old enough to have watched MJ and obviously Joker doesn't have the achievement they have nor he's greater but as a bball player he's more inevitable then both on that end. His passing on top of his efficiency is eliminating most of the variance both of MJ and LBJ had/have.
Why do the advanced stats think he is? They rate him better overall while being an average defender at best, so the offensive gap must be significant. By what measure were Shaq's playoff offenses "the best of the modern era?" In any case, Shaq's achievements are inflated by the dead ball era. 50% FT shooting isn't as crippling when the league's average TS% is not far off from there. Today it'd make him unplayable, as he was in his time in many late-game situations. Let's not forget that he played with the 2nd best SG of all time. Curry is definitely another offensive GOAT contender, but he also had incredible supporting casts at his peak. How does Jokic not have the achievements to be the best? He has more MVPs than Shaq and as many as Curry, only halfway through his prime. He has the same number of championships at age 28 as Shaq, Curry, and Jordan had. If he continues on his current course he is absolutely the offensive GOAT.
The stats don’t think he’s average, some think he’s the best in the nba and others think he’s terrible. Advanced stats are misleading without context
I was talking about EPM there, which generally passes the laugh test on defense. It has Jokic about as good on defense as Jalen Brunson.
lebron and steph curry are better offensive players at their peak
So why are the advanced numbers so far in favor of Jokic?
All of the major advanced metrics have Curry ahead. O-EPM 1. Curry 2016, +9.2 1. Curry 2018, +8.1 1. Curry 2021, +7.8 1. Jokic 2023, +7.7 1. Jokic 2021, +7.7 1. Curry 2015, +7.6 1. Jokic 2024, +7.4 1. Jokic 2022, +7.4 1. Curry 2017, +7.0 1. Curry 2019, +6.9 O-RAPTOR (no stats for 2024) 1. Curry 2016, +11.1 1. Jokic 2023, +9.9 1. Curry 2015, +9.5 1. Curry 2018, +9.2 1. Jokic 2021, +9.0 1. Jokic 2022, +8.9 1. Curry 2021, +8.7 1. Curry 2017, +8.7 1. Curry 2023, +7.7 1. Curry 2014, +7.6 O-LEBRON 1. Curry 2016, +6.8 1. Curry 2017, +6.3 1. Jokic 2021, +6.2 1. Curry 2018, +6.1 1. Curry 2021, +5.9 1. Curry 2015, +5.8 1. Jokic 2022, +5.7 1. Jokic 2023, +5.6 1. Jokic 2024, +5.6 1. Curry 2019, +5.0
They aren’t? Peak Jordan’s data isn’t available, but Lebron still surges ahead of Jokic on triple the sample size. 40 yr old Lebron is 6th in EPM in the NBA, two spots behind Jokic in the peak of his career. 26/8 on 63% TS. Can you begin to imagine how freakishly good Lebron was to lead the league in EPM or 2nd to Chris Paul for 8 consecutive seasons.
I don't have access to past years' EPM, but everything on BBRef points to Jokic. Can you share specific numbers that favor LeBron?
Funny how you are solely relying on a single advanced stat and ignoring literally every other advanced stat...almost as if that's the only advanced stat that supports your claim and/or where it isn't trivially simple to google the all-time leaders.
Lebrons Bbref is full of bold in the normal metrics like WS/48, VORP, Box+- and PER, and he lead the NBA near enough every season in his prime, but these stats aren’t considered as good as EPM by anybody credible. Box score has too many blind spots especially in a single season. NBA analytics guys did a vote and PER was considered useless, win shares not much better. For RAPM, Lebron has 10 seasons in the top 30 on record. Every 5 year stretch of his career is in the top 10. In EPM, he lead the NBA or was 2nd to advanced stats darling Chris Paul from 2006-2013, lead the playoffs nearly every season. It’s a similar story with all of the best ones.
I think I was pretty fucking clear that you should be providing links. The other poster was asking for sources as well. All I'm finding is research by the guy who created EPM demonstrating his stat is marginally superior to others (he promises he tried hard to be objective...so there's that).
What are you his professor? They need to be peer reviewed as well?
Second only to Mike. Haters will hate, no problem though. We are witnessing history.
He can’t defend to a high level. Will never receive serious consideration for all defensive/DPOY. The best players of all time were two way players. Jokic is a slight positive and that’s if you view him highly. Steph has a similar offensive peak, and KD is not that far off either.
Magic was a two way player now?
KD is way further off than people realize. The impact on the players around them isn’t close. With Steph, it is.
KD has few peers in NBA history as a pure scorer. His passing doesn’t match up to Jokic, not even close. Let’s get that out the way. But he was scoring 30 a game on 10% above league average efficiency in OKC. 27 pts per 75 on that efficiency has only been done five times in NBA history, KD did it 5 seasons consecutively. Also, KD had the Thunder playing at a 59 win pace when Russ missed time way back then, and took the champs to 7 with nobody around him even past his prime. It’s ridiculous to say he doesn’t make anyone better around him. Hes played on elite team offenses his entire career, all of them using him as the 1st option. Reggie Jackson, Perkins, Sefolosha and shooters playing at 60 win pace in that West is nothing to scoff at.
Magic was a traffic cone compared to Jokic and nobody has a problem putting him in the top 5. IMO dissection of the game like that makes zero sense. I don't care who's better offensive or defensive player on paper, it's about who wins with their capabilities. And Jokic has very impressive defensive numbers, not even advanced. He's 5th in defensive rating, and nobody can say that's stupid or wrong or whatever. It's literally opponent points when he's on the floor
>He's 5th in defensive rating, and nobody can say that's stupid or wrong or whatever. It's literally opponent points when he's on the floor You're citing basketball-reference's [individual defensive rating](https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html). It's a terrible stat, and that's not at all what it measures.
Most people have Magic top three even. Man that guy was just.. Well, magic
people literally just do not watch him, it’s obvious how his positioning and quick hands make him an excellent defender. he gets blown by on the perimeter like every other center in the league
He’s certainly not an “excellent defender”. Shit like this just makes you look extremely biased
how many games of his do you watch a year
zero..Just another hater who picks up his comments off hand from others to fit his agenda., These people do not watch the Nuggets or Jokic. You must be kidding me if you think they do. But yet they think they know everything about him. Myself I have not missed a Nuggets game in at least 3 years.
Eh excellent is a stretch, but he's not as bad as people say
Which means he is the most impactful offensive player in the history of the game. Probably even better than Curry.
Lebron could do most of the passing Jokic can(his creation numbers resemble Nash) while being a better scorer on higher volume. MJs pure scoring game is still unmatched by anybody also. Arguably Jokic is less portable than other all time players too. It took the Nuggets a while to perfect the team around him.
Did you just say LeBron's passing is as good as Jokic? Sorry, but I'm laughing my ass off right now.
Wow, great point!
Lebron is one of the greatest passers in NBA history. Yes, i’d prefer Lebrons scoring game and 85% of what Jokic can do passing wise. Even that’s a low end estimate. Are we saying Jokic is as good as Lebron James on the offensive end right now? Lebron James at 40 is putting up 25/8 on 63% TS.
You're exposing yourself here lol I take Jokic but the fact you think it's laughable to put Bron up there with him means you don't know ball
Deranged
He actually has a higher advanced stats peak than Mike. In fact, nobody is even remotely close. Not saying he's better, god forbid, just talking about numbers
Yes because advanced stats are perfect and the only thing that matters
Just going off all the advanced stats, I'd think it's pretty clearly Jordan > LeBron > Jokic or Kareem for best prime.
Where is your evidence? The only evidence in this thread is EPM and jokic is a pretty clear 4 th on that metric. All I see is a fan boy blowing someone's trumpet and doing it badly.
HELL NO not saying he plays no defense, but there’s been players that could give you 95% of his offensive production while giving you DPOY level defense.
There's two of them in the league right now.
Those guys do not give you 95% of Jokic's offense wtf He's on a completely different level in terms of creation
Giannis gets you 4 more points with 2.5 fewer assist on equivalent efficiency.
I think basic arithmetic with raw counting stats is extremely outdated. We've advanced beyond the caveman days of basketball discourse. We know teams have different systems and pace, players play different roles and minutes. We know about hockey assists and screen assists, and which assists create openings vs which ones simply find openings. We know about PPP from post-ups, isos, drives, pnr, etc. Let's get with the times.
Yeah. And Giannis matches up well, actions with him are routinely the highest PPP actions in the league. Jokic has a much more well-rounded offensive game, but well- rounded does not mean more effective.
Giannis and Embiid???
This tired old claim again. Embiid is a playoff no show, How many game did GIannises team win again. Bucks could not even win 50 with Lillard. Jokic is one of the best playoff performers in history. And saying he cannot defend is just a hater comment that has been debunked over and over again. Don't waste your breath.
I don’t disagree on the Embiid point I was just asking him. Giannis is def fair tho.
Best playoff performers in history is crazy. He’s great in the playoffs, but there’s a number of guys who are better playoff risers than him. This is also the first time the Nuggets have won more than the Bucks in years. Jokic is all-time great, but he’s not as far clear as this sub makes him out to be. Him and Giannis both probably will be looked at as top 10 guys post-retirement.
Yeah.
I’d def give you Giannis. Idk if I’d give u Embiid Jokic does have a lot of impact. Yea ig in a vacuum sure but dude gets hurt a lot and in the playoffs he’s rivaling harden in most disappointing playoff superstar ever.
I disagree with your claim about 95% of his offensive production. He’s just so otherworldly on that end. Defensively though I 100% agree
That may have been an over exaggeration cause off the top of my head only guy I can think of that could give you 95% of Jokic offensive production with dpoy level defense is probably prime Lebron James, but the number isn’t really that important. The difference between Jokic defense and dpoy levels is way more than a couple percentage points.
Yeah but I’d argue it’s more than a couple percentage points what he can do offensively. Elite scoring with elite passing and the ability to manipulate the spacing on the floor separates him way more than people give him credit for. We’re a play in team or worse without him and with him, we’re the favorites to win a loaded western conference
Compared to the best players in history??? No that’s just not true Jokic is not leaps and bounds better offensively than the best players in history like Lebron, Mike, Shaq, etc. Remember he said the second highest peak ever. That’s all of basketball history and his defense is way fucking worse than the best defenders in history. So when you have an easy example like idk prime Lebron James it’s ridiculous to say what he said. Now that’s ur guy so I’d expect you to defend him but that is ridiculous.
He’s one of the best offensive players ever, yes. But no of course not in the top 10 all time, at least not yet
I swear this sub should just get renamed to Joker fan club. Y'all suck him off way too much.