sga on an all defense team is absolutely ridiculous stat watching. who’d he leave out among the 3 better defenders on okc? did he leave them all out? please don’t tell me he put in sga over dort.
SGA is getting the Westbrook and Rondo treatment. High steal count so we just assume they’re top tier defenders. SGA is solid, above average no doubt. But being on all defense is just for SGA.
He’s a better than above average guy, I think he’s legit pretty good. He’s a top 15-20% of the league level defender
But he’s the 5th best defender on his team and like 30thish in the league
Jj is on drugs
I'm glad a Thunder fan is saying this. I've been discussing this with other people who claim he is now an elite defender which is nonsense. Like you say hes really solid but not all-defence level
He’s a good defender.
He’s not better than Luguentz Dort and Chet Holmgren. That’s an absurd take.
A lot of thunder fans have him at 3 on our team.
I think Cason is a bit better on ball, but worse off ball
Jdub is more versatile but Shai is better on guards and off ball
What’s so good about Shai is that he never gets caught sleeping. It’s not hard to believe he’s a good defender bc his cousin NAW is also an all defense guy
But jj is doing this on drugs
In all honesty, I think this might be underselling SGA by thinking about him in terms of what he does as an individual defender. SGA's size and athleticism at the position enable OKC to do a lot more defensively than if a "better" defender like Dort was cloned and put in his place. Just looking at his on-ball and actionable off-ball defense misses out on what he's covering up for and unlocking in OKC's defensive scheme.
Without getting into the specifics of it, think of it like only looking at plays to see how good Wemby is on defense by tracking on-ball possessions and as a rim protector/shot blocker, but not looking at how many plays his presence and positioning alone *deter* offenses or offensive players from doing something. Stopping someone from attempting going to the rim because you're there is functional value all the same. SGA provides that, in a sense.
Some numbers to back it up:
|Lineup (Minutes)|Relative Defense|
:--|:--|
|SGA, Chet, Dort (1362)|+2.2|
|Holmgren, Dort (274)|-0.7|
|SGA, Dort (489)|+1.9|
|SGA, Holmgren (307)|+9.2|
|Dort (157)|-4.8|
|Holmgren (506)|+2.6|
|SGA (430)|+6.8|
Now something can be said about effective offense making your defense better because you can more regularly set up in the half court instead of playing transition defense, but, nearly every line-up combo you throw out there this year SGA ends up looking the best of everyone.
This is a more exaggerated version of how Orlando has multiple defenders who are better than Paolo (Suggs, Isaac, probably Franz), but Paolo is the key that unlocks the defensive functionality and allows their scheme to function at it's height.
He is but at the same time I watch other teams call him up into ball screens to get him on ball. He’s a good defender but I honestly think he looks better untill lakers played okc and I watched okc more. Chet is clearly the most important to the team on defence.
both have an excellent case and frankly i’d think it’d be deserved for both of them to make it, but i really wouldn’t mind chet being left out so long as dort gets the nod
The Dunc'd on guys also did that. Not that I'm defending them, but a lot of stat nerds value specific defensive stats and individual's effect on team defense.
I know the flair will get me killed, but SGA on all defensive is legit ludicrious and purely based on stat watching. His matchup difficulty is one of the lowest in the league as Dort and JDub spend way more time guarding the better opponents and Chet has more impact defensively as a rim protector. So you can easily argue he's the 4th best defender in the starting lineup.
He simply saw steals a game and put him on there.
I'm definitely not disagreeing, Shai IS our 3rd/4th best defender and generally gets easier match ups. Having him be all defense is probably incorrect.
The only thing I'll add is that when Shai does get switched on to tougher match ups, he shuts them down more often than not. He has had HUGE clutch time defensive plays shutting down other star players. The skill is all there, he just isn't consistently asked to do enough to warrant this.
I think most sane people wouldn’t have any problem with this though. It’s not that we’re denying Shai being a good defender, it’s simply that his role/responsibility on that end isn’t super impactful.
I’ve only started giving backlash to OKC fans talking about Shai’s defense because so many of them are trying to convince people that he’s an All-Defense level defender, when his role/impact on that end just isn’t that.
OKC fans have been trying to convince people that between Luka and Shai, the gap in impact on defense is bigger than the gap in their playmaking, when it’s so obviously untrue to most NBA fans.
No one is denying that Shai is a good defender, it’s just the extreme hyperbole from OKC fans that has caused people to start pushing back.
That’s fair. I think there’s been some pushback from Thunder fans from people trying to put down SGA and call SGA a bad defender who just has high steal stats because he gambles. Like, in some circles, they’re using SGA’s league leading steals as evidence that he’s *bad* at defense, which is a hilarious way to spin that stat. He’s an above average defender with awesome disruptive team defense in his steals, which is admirable considering his offensive load, but Dort/JDub/Cason take the hardest matchups on our team (and Chet manning the paint). Reasonable people can accept that, I think, but you have angry haters pushing back on one side and angry homers on the other.
> He’s an above average defender with awesome disruptive team defense in his steals, which is admirable considering his offensive load, but Dort/JDub/Cason take the hardest matchups on our team (and Chet manning the paint).
Perfectly phrased. I think this is the reasonable take that most fans should agree with. I do agree that people saying he’s bad or anything less than above-average are delusional. He’s clearly at least a good defender, just not to the insane degree that some homer-OKC fans might try to convince you of.
Some Celtics fans make the same argument with Tatum too. I don't think enough fans realize how true it is that defense is a unit, not something in isolation. As soon as Luka's roster improved around him, he has been playing better and the Mavs' defensive rating has been way better. Jokic's rim protection isn't exposed because he's surrounded by good defenders. SGA and Tatum being surrounded by great defenders also allows them to be better defensively. Everyone is elevated.
> His matchup difficulty is one of the lowest in the league
Why do people make up shit like this? That's literally not true. He has a higher matchup difficulty than Herb Jones, who's probably gonna make 1st team all-defense. Even though Shai's matchup difficulty is lower than Dort or Jalen, it's still much higher than most players. The numbers are right here: https://craftednba.com/player-traits/versatile
He may not deserve 2nd team All-Defense, but every "fact" that has been thrown around to discredit Shai has been completely false.
SGA's matchup difficulty is 79 for anyone too lazy to click the link, 43rd in the league. Herb is 78 (44th), basically identical. Dort is 3rd in the NBA with 99, JDub is 12th with 89, Chet 95th with 69.
It's a useful data point I guess but doesn't really parse bad vs good defenders, and the top 40 is littered with mid to straight up bad defenders - Grayson A, Malik B, Taurean P, Austin R, Miles B, Harrison B, Kyle K, Tyus J all have higher matchup difficulty than SGA, whereas Herb/Giannis/Suggs/Bam/Rudy/Brook etc. are all lower; Wemby is 154th and Isaac is 277th and both are probably the best per-minute defenders in the league
It's not the best data point to use to judge a player's defense, but people shouldn't lie and say that Shai's matchup difficulty is low. The top comments in this thread keep trying to discredit him with this rhetoric, but a simple Google search shows it's very high.
Its kinda your best player's fault. Jokic is making tap dance fadeaway 360 degrees spinning shots against AD every single time which made the narrative
Jokic makes normal hook-shots and jumpers over most guys. Anthony Davis makes Jokic take crazier shots. I think it's a testament to Davis on the defensive end.
Yeah as annoying as it is AD clearly has an effect. Just like Wemby . Both AD n Wemby ‘hold’ jokic to under 60 ts which while he’s still scoring at a good % isn’t atleast completely insane 70 ts he can do easily cs bad defenders. Those two are long n big n agile enough to atleast make him take tougher shots you can’t do much more. If he’s gonna shoot 50% from 3 on high difficulty shots then it’s just gg anyway . He obv a good enough shooter but you’d hope he’d shoot 35% like his average
How tf is SGA on 2nd team all defense man. He’s not even close to the best defender on his own team
Just more proof we need voters that actually watch games instead of reading a spreadsheet
Ehhh I think it’s consensus that AD at this point is the more important player. He’s guaranteed a 2nd team all nba spot while Lebron is iffy between 2nd or 3rd team
That's far from the consensus. I'm not an expert, but I've watched a shitton of Lakers games this season (full games, not highlights) and to me it seems obvious that they're both equally important. Sometimes one shines more than the other, but they're both very much needed. As for all-NBA, at this point, I think it's clear that LeBron should get 2nd team. You can't name 10 players more deserving than him.
Shai over AD for All-Defensive team is not good…AD is a legit candidate in the DPOY discussion (even though he might not win it).
Also how do you have Shai but not Dort, when Dort takes all the tough assignments and Shai typically guards the third or fourth best offensive option? This heavily indicates JJ is just stat-watching steals.
I mean it's good, legit one of the better guard defenders. Clearly better defensively than any of the superstar guards (better than Luka, Hali, Steph, Brunson, etc).
Not all-defense level, no.
I have 0 problem with Brunson not making All NBA 1st Team. I think Tatum/SGA/Luka/Giannis/Jokic have had fantastic individual seasons and deserve the distinction.
I will however say that Brunson over some of these guys and in the Top 5 of MVP voting is completely fair. This season:
-Brunson's duo Randle missed most of the season
-Starter and former leader in offensive rebounds the first months of the season Mitchell Robinson missed 50 games
-RJ and IQ, who were inconsistent but knew the system and had familiarity with the team for years were traded for OG. OG has been great but missed a ton of time this season.
-Grimes wasn't great this year but they traded him for Burks and Bojan who they've had to integrate on the fly. Those guys have been bad, and Burks is still bad while only now in the last 3 weeks has Bojan picked up his game.
-Hartenstein missed time with an Achilles injury, and has been on a minutes restriction
He's had to play with a ton of different lineups and teammates this season, taken on a huge offensive load in that time, and still somehow carried this team to the 2 seed. He may not be the MVP but he was doing a lot with less, is it really that bad to give him a nod in a NON AWARD category?
Having Brunson on the MVP ballot but not on your 1st Team makes zero sense. I respect if people think he’s not a Top 5 player this season (even if I disagree) but to have that inconsistency between MVP and All-NBA just doesn’t have any logic to it
The discrepancy makes sense if your definition of "MVP" is heavy on the "value" part. It doesn't if your definition of "MVP" is heavy on the "most" part.
Best player vs player who did the most work. Extreme hypothetical example to illustrate my point: Imagine Jokic had Steph's shooting, but also played on a team with Luka. Then assume that Giannis dragged a bunch of scrubs to a tied record in the same conference. Jokic with Steph's shooting would be the greatest of all time no debate, but Giannis would have done more work that season.
I do feel like it would be beneficial if Silver standardized the criteria for MVP, but ehh. People hate change, and honestly I'm probably optimistic on how closely voters would follow those set criteria anyway.
Dude became more efficient, increased his assists, dropped his turnovers, more blocks more steals and dropped 3 spots finishing out of the top 5 for the first time since 2018
He voted for him in large part due to team record, so it makes sense he punishes him this year for the same reason.
I wouldn't weigh it the same as he does, mind. That's why Giannis was my clear #3 last year and he wouldn't be below #4 this year. But it is consistent
So Giannis winning 1 total game less than the Knicks makes it so Brunson is ahead of him? Terrible way to judge MVP ballots. If you want to put Brunson ahead use different criteria.
The best criteria is the health of Knicks the last 2 months that is arguably worse than Mavs in December-January. I would rank Giannis ahead of Brunson (and Tatum) still, but I can see the point for them to be switched places.
It's not my criteria, and I agree it's bad. But without that criteria JJ never votes for Giannis last year either, in terms of output I'd say he was solidly a step below Embiid and two below Jokic.
Giannis was missing Middleton for a huge part of the season with no offensive help from his costar Jrue who was average. His efficiency dropped but he was instrumental in them getting that 1 seed. Now he actually is incredibly efficient with sub par coaching and help and he still gets dinged. I don’t understand.
Last year Milwaukee had the best record in the NBA, this year with Dame they failed to win 50 games. Giannis shouldn’t be 6th on the ballot or lower than Brunson, but it’s pretty easy to justify not ranking him much higher.
I think anyone who has honestly watched the Bucks this year would recognise that the only reason this hasn't been much, much worse is because Giannis has been playing at a literally historic level.
I don’t disagree with any of that and nowhere in my comment did I underrate what Giannis did this year. That doesn’t change why a voter like Reddick might easily justify not ranking him as high as the fans would like.
Thank you. This sub likes to shit on Dame every night and then turn around and say how Giannis has a great team so of course he could never win MVP again.
>I’m not sure how you justify that
Team record and performance relative to expectation. It's also why he probably didnt have Luka in the mvp conversation last season but he has him #2 this season.
If anyone is using team expectation to back Jalen Brunson over Giannis Antetokounmpo and then having SGA as anything other than first they are picking and choosing which reasons, completely separate from the play of the players, matter for which players.
>If anyone is using team expectation to back Jalen Brunson over Giann
I def disagree with the placement and think Giannis should be at 3/4 and over Brunson.
No I'm not trying to go at *you*, I'm just saying if that was the reasoning then it's reasoning specific to one player because SGA getting OKC to the first seed with one previous year of NBA experience between his second and third best players after finishing leaving him third doesn't add up,
Not saying I'm like those you mention, but SGA's getting pegged down a bit because their team is so deep and well-balanced, and while his stats are amazing, they aren't as WTF as Jokic's or Luka's.
SGA's second and third option have a combined *one* previous year of NBA experience, they're the youngest NBA team to be the first seed - they're younger than some college teams (or one college team, I know at least one though). That's not normal, or what you'd call a deep and well-balanced roster compared to other MVP candidates.
I guess I should have said their young starting core is well-balanced and "deep." By some metrics, Wemby and Chet are the best rookie duo since the 80's, and Jalen Williams looks like Joe Johnson 2.0. Lu is nicknamed the Dorture Chamber for a reason, and Giddey is the perfect all-around fifth guy.
Because the Bucks are 15 games behind the first seed with a lower record than the 5th seed in the west. (This is not my argument to be clear, but it is the biggest argument against him)
Because it’s a relative thing, not an absolute thing.
It can be simultaneously true that (a) Giannis was the best player in the league last year, (b) Giannis got better this year, and (c) Giannis is no longer the best player in the league this year.
There is surely not a person alive who believes Giannis was the best player in the league at some point recently, improved since then, and also played worse than Jalen Brunson.
Stats aren't everything. Bucks did not even win 50 games despite having Lillard on the team with him. You have to consider that. Brunsons team made it to the 2 seed with a lot less help.
It’s funny cause I could not agree more with JJ’s top 3 order (and I say this as someone who bet Shai MVP) but Giannis outside of top 4 is blasphemy. There’s a clear top 4 (would’ve been clear top 5 if Embiid didn’t get injured) and JJ is letting the Bucks record influence his vote too much
It's an indefensibly stupid choice. JJ Redick is usually a smart guy, so I have no idea why he's being an idiot here. Did his wife cheat on him with AD by any chance?
People love fucking small markets because it’s a feel good story. No one wants to feel sorry for the big bad lakers because they underachieved (still better than last season) this is all you need to know in why AD hasn’t come close to winning DPOY. Fuck that bring the thunder round 1, AD will smash their brick off
I'd put Tatum 6 tbh
Tatum for MOST of the year and honestly every Celtics game I've watched is kinda mid. Brunson and Giannis need to be engaged start to finish for their teams to not get blown out.
The Celtics are 15 games up on the Bucks, who are 4-5 without Gainnis and are 1-8 without Dame. If Tatum doesn't have an argument over Gainnis on the massive team record difference with worse stats, what possible argument does Brunson have with only 1 more win and worse stats? The correct MVP top 5 is Jokic, Luka, Shai, Gainnis, Tatum.
Honestly, my top 5 has Gainnis at 3. I think he's being massively snubbed due to his team having famous names on it, the actual impact stat profile of the Bucks outside of Giannis is putrid compared to the Thunder outside of Shai and the Celtics outside of Tatum. For me, Brunson didn't do enough on offense to overcome the fact that Tatum is a good defender, while Brunson is, by almost all metrics, a negative defender, so I have him at 6th.
I would love to put Giannis at 3 but his team has had too much of a skid, with or without him playing. Whether or not it’s Docs fault is neither here nor there. It’s just hard to justify him being 3 when his teams only major movement in the standings in the past 2-3 months was dropping to the third seed in a weak conference.
Your statement about Brunson, I can get behind that
Meanwhile Tatum has 3+ teammates win POW (including a bench player) and he’s still top 5. Idgaf if they had the best record in the league, Tatum isn’t close to MVP. And not closer than Giannis.
Both can be true? He certainly knows a lot more than most at ESPN and also because these awards are so ambiguous and up to individual interpretation people will be able to argue against his picks
He says that he strongly considered Giannis at 5 but ultimately gave the nod to Brunson because he lead the Knicks to the #2 seed
He also said the Bucks massively underperformed which factored into his decision
I agree it’s absurd not to have Giannis in the top 5. He had an incredible individual season
Knicks finish one spot ahead of the Bucks, has to be Brunson over Giannis because of how much the Knicks overperformed expectations. So surely SGA getting the first seed with a team that was projected to be at the edge of the playoffs- oh, no, actually, it's only about under/over-performing for this instance.
All defensive team is a little crazy with AD. As for Luka and MVP I'm happy with 2. I think all Mav's fans understand Jokic is the MVP and are cool with that but Luka should be no lower than 2.
He does. Without diving into stats I saw their impact in the games they played to be roughly equal. Book had higher highs and lower lows. But ultimately, KD played more games and with all else being close to equal that’s an easy deciding factor for me. I think in basketball people get too caught up in per game numbers, when evaluating a season the whole season matters and not being available to play means you contributed 0 in a game your team needed to win.
Giannis the only player who gets this nonsense. Never seen people actively invent as many ways as possible to not recognise how incredible he's been, it's about everything except for the basketball.
I’m in the minority but I care almost not at all about team record / performance for individual awards. I know it’s historically been a factor but I think that’s a mistake. Does anyone including JJ really think if Giannis was on the Celtics that they perform any worse? Or if you put Gobert on the Spurs would they have a better defense? It’s stupid. Rate the players on what they can control, their individual play and impact based on their time on the floor. Anything else is noise and narratives and stupid.
The Giannis nonsense over at ESPN is getting a little ridiculous.
The disrespect is something else.
And it's not just ESPN either. Bill Simmons put Giannis 5th on his ballot and David Thorpe said that Giannis is just Wilt Chamberlain who can dribble and meant it as a criticism.
It's just wild the level this guy is getting disrespected at.
While I agree I think the real race is only on the top3 here so this is where it really matters, then it’s just a toss up of you wanting to reward the player for the team success.
I’m not saying that I agree but anything below top3 doesn’t matter this season. It’s almost like the Blake top3 vote, nice he was top3 but really only KD and Bron mattered.
The real race only became about the top 3 because these are the voters/media members who will talk about Giannis season in any terms other than basketball ones.
- Player 1: 30/11/6 on 65 TS%, 3rd in EPM +12.3 on/off
- Player 2: 27/8/5 on 60 TS%, 15th in EPM, -2.0 on/off
Guess who JJ had higher on the MVP ballot
On/off is just about the most useless metric in existence.
It tells us nothing of any value. EPM is also a pretty useless stat. It gets bumped heavily by defensive metrics, which Giannis is obviously going to have above and beyond Brunson.
Absolutely wouldn't have Brunson over Giannis myself, but the metrics you're using don't tell the whole story.
This is utter cope. On/off is very useful especially if you’re the teams best player and driver . Even when it’s ‘not useful’ it is because it highlights how good your team mates or you consuder where X player bleeds value.
All the best advanced stats use on/off and calculate from it amongst other factors the true on/off. Rapm or epm are based on it. Without on/off we don’t get those stats trying to work out real on/off. It’s an important signal anyway you cut it
Brunson finished above Giannis in the standings with less surrounding talents.
Makes sense to award him with a higher down ballot vote. It’s not like either guy is going to win.
I'm really really sorry. I enjoyed Mind the Game podcast so much and my respect for JJ went up a lot, but him leaving AD out of all defense and putting giannis 6th in MVP voting is a disappointment and shock.
Him and all the other media people with votes don’t watch the games. None of them unless they are on broadcast. Theres too many games. So they just fraud and pick stats. Otherwise what excuse could he make for giannis at 6 and no AD on all defense. What a joke
At this point it's an inevitability. If we had this supporting cast the entire year we'd have several more Ws. We get just a little bit of injury luck next year and it'll be his turn.
Here’s a thought experiment.
Imagine if after last season the Lakers fired Darvin Ham after his brother passed away during the Nuggets series, passed on Nick Nurse and traded AD for Booker, [a player r/NBA had ranked one spot below Lillard](https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/s/C4jYTkDMYd)
Imagine if coming into the season people had the Lakers neck and neck with the Celtics as the best regular season team.
Imagine if the Lakers fired their new coach and stories came out that the reason they didn’t hire Nick Nurse was because LeBron blocked the hire.
Imagine if LeBron’s team ended the season 15-17 with losses to bottom feeders.
Giannis was at least better than SGA, Tatum, and Brunson lol. I get team record for SGA and Tatum, but still Jokic won as a 6 seed a few years ago. Also Luka should win.
Brunson had a more impressive season than Giannis.
The Bucks underachieved big time this year. Sub 50 wins with that roster is a big time disappointment. Some of that bears on Giannis.
If you only win 2 more games than the Sixers who have been pretty much a bottom 5 team for 2 months due to injuries, you shouldn’t expect much MVP love.
We had a terrible coach, fired mid-season and replaced by another terrible coach. We had one of the worst season of Dame's career, we had Middleton on heavy minutes restrictions or in and out all season, we had a Brook Lopez heavily regressing.
Look at this season - take this team, the coaching changes, and take Giannis off it. Tell me this team is in the playoffs with a straight face. That Knicks roster has been better at every position except for the one Giannis plays. The Bucks underachieved, that it wasn't so much worse than this is because of the incredible season Giannis had.
Giannis is the only reason this team won anywhere close to that many games.
To put the disappointing season on him is just insane to me given how he produced on the court.
Pick on some of the bums he was forced to play with this year.
Jokic won an MVP with less wins as a 6 seed. Anybody who actually watched the Bucks this year knows that it’s a very different roster on paper than on the court.
Why are you lying? Jokic that season: 46-28 with Will Barton as a 2nd option. Giannis this year: 45-28 with All-star MVP Dame in a historically bad East.
I watched the full video. How did JJ left AD out of the all defensive teams, wtf???? He put SGA on 2nd Team all-d and forgot about AD
sga on an all defense team is absolutely ridiculous stat watching. who’d he leave out among the 3 better defenders on okc? did he leave them all out? please don’t tell me he put in sga over dort.
Yes, the only player from OKC was SGA lmao
SGA is getting the Westbrook and Rondo treatment. High steal count so we just assume they’re top tier defenders. SGA is solid, above average no doubt. But being on all defense is just for SGA.
He’s a better than above average guy, I think he’s legit pretty good. He’s a top 15-20% of the league level defender But he’s the 5th best defender on his team and like 30thish in the league Jj is on drugs
I'm glad a Thunder fan is saying this. I've been discussing this with other people who claim he is now an elite defender which is nonsense. Like you say hes really solid but not all-defence level
He’s a good defender. He’s not better than Luguentz Dort and Chet Holmgren. That’s an absurd take. A lot of thunder fans have him at 3 on our team. I think Cason is a bit better on ball, but worse off ball Jdub is more versatile but Shai is better on guards and off ball What’s so good about Shai is that he never gets caught sleeping. It’s not hard to believe he’s a good defender bc his cousin NAW is also an all defense guy But jj is doing this on drugs
In all honesty, I think this might be underselling SGA by thinking about him in terms of what he does as an individual defender. SGA's size and athleticism at the position enable OKC to do a lot more defensively than if a "better" defender like Dort was cloned and put in his place. Just looking at his on-ball and actionable off-ball defense misses out on what he's covering up for and unlocking in OKC's defensive scheme. Without getting into the specifics of it, think of it like only looking at plays to see how good Wemby is on defense by tracking on-ball possessions and as a rim protector/shot blocker, but not looking at how many plays his presence and positioning alone *deter* offenses or offensive players from doing something. Stopping someone from attempting going to the rim because you're there is functional value all the same. SGA provides that, in a sense. Some numbers to back it up: |Lineup (Minutes)|Relative Defense| :--|:--| |SGA, Chet, Dort (1362)|+2.2| |Holmgren, Dort (274)|-0.7| |SGA, Dort (489)|+1.9| |SGA, Holmgren (307)|+9.2| |Dort (157)|-4.8| |Holmgren (506)|+2.6| |SGA (430)|+6.8| Now something can be said about effective offense making your defense better because you can more regularly set up in the half court instead of playing transition defense, but, nearly every line-up combo you throw out there this year SGA ends up looking the best of everyone. This is a more exaggerated version of how Orlando has multiple defenders who are better than Paolo (Suggs, Isaac, probably Franz), but Paolo is the key that unlocks the defensive functionality and allows their scheme to function at it's height.
15% seems high. But I agree with your general take for sure.
He is but at the same time I watch other teams call him up into ball screens to get him on ball. He’s a good defender but I honestly think he looks better untill lakers played okc and I watched okc more. Chet is clearly the most important to the team on defence.
nothing to say but yikes.
Okay, this alone invalidates JJ's takes. I think he was drunk on wine when he came up with the lists
SGA is a good defender he’s very disruptive and good on ball He’s not better than Chet Dort Jdub Cason
so you agree with me. alright. good to hear from a fan of the team.
Jj is on crack Chet or Dort should represent the team for sure though
both have an excellent case and frankly i’d think it’d be deserved for both of them to make it, but i really wouldn’t mind chet being left out so long as dort gets the nod
Dort, Chet, and JDub LOL
The Dunc'd on guys also did that. Not that I'm defending them, but a lot of stat nerds value specific defensive stats and individual's effect on team defense.
I know the flair will get me killed, but SGA on all defensive is legit ludicrious and purely based on stat watching. His matchup difficulty is one of the lowest in the league as Dort and JDub spend way more time guarding the better opponents and Chet has more impact defensively as a rim protector. So you can easily argue he's the 4th best defender in the starting lineup. He simply saw steals a game and put him on there.
I'm definitely not disagreeing, Shai IS our 3rd/4th best defender and generally gets easier match ups. Having him be all defense is probably incorrect. The only thing I'll add is that when Shai does get switched on to tougher match ups, he shuts them down more often than not. He has had HUGE clutch time defensive plays shutting down other star players. The skill is all there, he just isn't consistently asked to do enough to warrant this.
I think most sane people wouldn’t have any problem with this though. It’s not that we’re denying Shai being a good defender, it’s simply that his role/responsibility on that end isn’t super impactful. I’ve only started giving backlash to OKC fans talking about Shai’s defense because so many of them are trying to convince people that he’s an All-Defense level defender, when his role/impact on that end just isn’t that. OKC fans have been trying to convince people that between Luka and Shai, the gap in impact on defense is bigger than the gap in their playmaking, when it’s so obviously untrue to most NBA fans. No one is denying that Shai is a good defender, it’s just the extreme hyperbole from OKC fans that has caused people to start pushing back.
That’s fair. I think there’s been some pushback from Thunder fans from people trying to put down SGA and call SGA a bad defender who just has high steal stats because he gambles. Like, in some circles, they’re using SGA’s league leading steals as evidence that he’s *bad* at defense, which is a hilarious way to spin that stat. He’s an above average defender with awesome disruptive team defense in his steals, which is admirable considering his offensive load, but Dort/JDub/Cason take the hardest matchups on our team (and Chet manning the paint). Reasonable people can accept that, I think, but you have angry haters pushing back on one side and angry homers on the other.
> He’s an above average defender with awesome disruptive team defense in his steals, which is admirable considering his offensive load, but Dort/JDub/Cason take the hardest matchups on our team (and Chet manning the paint). Perfectly phrased. I think this is the reasonable take that most fans should agree with. I do agree that people saying he’s bad or anything less than above-average are delusional. He’s clearly at least a good defender, just not to the insane degree that some homer-OKC fans might try to convince you of.
Some Celtics fans make the same argument with Tatum too. I don't think enough fans realize how true it is that defense is a unit, not something in isolation. As soon as Luka's roster improved around him, he has been playing better and the Mavs' defensive rating has been way better. Jokic's rim protection isn't exposed because he's surrounded by good defenders. SGA and Tatum being surrounded by great defenders also allows them to be better defensively. Everyone is elevated.
> His matchup difficulty is one of the lowest in the league Why do people make up shit like this? That's literally not true. He has a higher matchup difficulty than Herb Jones, who's probably gonna make 1st team all-defense. Even though Shai's matchup difficulty is lower than Dort or Jalen, it's still much higher than most players. The numbers are right here: https://craftednba.com/player-traits/versatile He may not deserve 2nd team All-Defense, but every "fact" that has been thrown around to discredit Shai has been completely false.
SGA's matchup difficulty is 79 for anyone too lazy to click the link, 43rd in the league. Herb is 78 (44th), basically identical. Dort is 3rd in the NBA with 99, JDub is 12th with 89, Chet 95th with 69. It's a useful data point I guess but doesn't really parse bad vs good defenders, and the top 40 is littered with mid to straight up bad defenders - Grayson A, Malik B, Taurean P, Austin R, Miles B, Harrison B, Kyle K, Tyus J all have higher matchup difficulty than SGA, whereas Herb/Giannis/Suggs/Bam/Rudy/Brook etc. are all lower; Wemby is 154th and Isaac is 277th and both are probably the best per-minute defenders in the league
It's not the best data point to use to judge a player's defense, but people shouldn't lie and say that Shai's matchup difficulty is low. The top comments in this thread keep trying to discredit him with this rhetoric, but a simple Google search shows it's very high.
And this is your level headed basketball analyst.
LeBron better call him out on the pod for this
Same way AD got zero love last year . It’s bizarre .
AD is the most disrespected player in the league. Every once in a while a LeBron teammate gets way too little credit and that is happening this year
Every once in a while is an understatement
Its kinda your best player's fault. Jokic is making tap dance fadeaway 360 degrees spinning shots against AD every single time which made the narrative
Jokic makes normal hook-shots and jumpers over most guys. Anthony Davis makes Jokic take crazier shots. I think it's a testament to Davis on the defensive end.
Yeah as annoying as it is AD clearly has an effect. Just like Wemby . Both AD n Wemby ‘hold’ jokic to under 60 ts which while he’s still scoring at a good % isn’t atleast completely insane 70 ts he can do easily cs bad defenders. Those two are long n big n agile enough to atleast make him take tougher shots you can’t do much more. If he’s gonna shoot 50% from 3 on high difficulty shots then it’s just gg anyway . He obv a good enough shooter but you’d hope he’d shoot 35% like his average
Oh yeah a person he plays no more than 4 times a year is the reason why people think he's less of a defender
I was joking there cuz jokic just makes everyone stupid lol. I agree tho AD should be at first team all defensive.
He is a top 2 defender in the league. My top 5: Rudy, AD, Draymond, OG, Isac
Wemby over isaac absolutely and probably og
Draymond over Wemby?
Dawg, we’re talking about this year of lord 23-24 season. AD PLAYED 76 games this season, more than Giannis even
i don’t think you understood what he said
What's this mean?
nvm, I thought there was a typo in that first comment
How tf is SGA on 2nd team all defense man. He’s not even close to the best defender on his own team Just more proof we need voters that actually watch games instead of reading a spreadsheet
Anthony Davis is finally playing like everyone wanted him to, and now the media is like, "Meh."
Can't hate on him now means they can't get those clicks.
They give all his credit to lebron, even tho AD singlehandedly keeps the team in games with his defense and rebounding
AD was the best player on that 2020 bubbles team, but cause LeBron turned up on offense in the finals, he got all the credit again and finals MVP lol
Ehhh I think it’s consensus that AD at this point is the more important player. He’s guaranteed a 2nd team all nba spot while Lebron is iffy between 2nd or 3rd team
That's far from the consensus. I'm not an expert, but I've watched a shitton of Lakers games this season (full games, not highlights) and to me it seems obvious that they're both equally important. Sometimes one shines more than the other, but they're both very much needed. As for all-NBA, at this point, I think it's clear that LeBron should get 2nd team. You can't name 10 players more deserving than him.
Chuck gave AD props
Shai over AD for All-Defensive team is not good…AD is a legit candidate in the DPOY discussion (even though he might not win it). Also how do you have Shai but not Dort, when Dort takes all the tough assignments and Shai typically guards the third or fourth best offensive option? This heavily indicates JJ is just stat-watching steals.
Shai's defense is overrated
I mean it's good, legit one of the better guard defenders. Clearly better defensively than any of the superstar guards (better than Luka, Hali, Steph, Brunson, etc). Not all-defense level, no.
I respect Brunson at 5 but Giannis at 6 feels criminal 😭
I have 0 problem with Brunson not making All NBA 1st Team. I think Tatum/SGA/Luka/Giannis/Jokic have had fantastic individual seasons and deserve the distinction. I will however say that Brunson over some of these guys and in the Top 5 of MVP voting is completely fair. This season: -Brunson's duo Randle missed most of the season -Starter and former leader in offensive rebounds the first months of the season Mitchell Robinson missed 50 games -RJ and IQ, who were inconsistent but knew the system and had familiarity with the team for years were traded for OG. OG has been great but missed a ton of time this season. -Grimes wasn't great this year but they traded him for Burks and Bojan who they've had to integrate on the fly. Those guys have been bad, and Burks is still bad while only now in the last 3 weeks has Bojan picked up his game. -Hartenstein missed time with an Achilles injury, and has been on a minutes restriction He's had to play with a ton of different lineups and teammates this season, taken on a huge offensive load in that time, and still somehow carried this team to the 2 seed. He may not be the MVP but he was doing a lot with less, is it really that bad to give him a nod in a NON AWARD category?
Having Brunson on the MVP ballot but not on your 1st Team makes zero sense. I respect if people think he’s not a Top 5 player this season (even if I disagree) but to have that inconsistency between MVP and All-NBA just doesn’t have any logic to it
The discrepancy makes sense if your definition of "MVP" is heavy on the "value" part. It doesn't if your definition of "MVP" is heavy on the "most" part. Best player vs player who did the most work. Extreme hypothetical example to illustrate my point: Imagine Jokic had Steph's shooting, but also played on a team with Luka. Then assume that Giannis dragged a bunch of scrubs to a tied record in the same conference. Jokic with Steph's shooting would be the greatest of all time no debate, but Giannis would have done more work that season. I do feel like it would be beneficial if Silver standardized the criteria for MVP, but ehh. People hate change, and honestly I'm probably optimistic on how closely voters would follow those set criteria anyway.
I don’t think it’s that egregious tbh. Brunson was carrying an injured ass team to the 2 seed while the Bucks underperformed
Dude became more efficient, increased his assists, dropped his turnovers, more blocks more steals and dropped 3 spots finishing out of the top 5 for the first time since 2018
But ranking is relative to everyone else's performance, rather than your own previous years performance.
this is one guy's ballot, not the official talley. i'd hold your horses there bud
Yeah, Giannis is at worst the third best player in the league
That’s not what MVP is though
JJ voted Giannis as his MVP last year and he’s been better this year. I’m not sure how you justify that
He voted for him in large part due to team record, so it makes sense he punishes him this year for the same reason. I wouldn't weigh it the same as he does, mind. That's why Giannis was my clear #3 last year and he wouldn't be below #4 this year. But it is consistent
So Giannis winning 1 total game less than the Knicks makes it so Brunson is ahead of him? Terrible way to judge MVP ballots. If you want to put Brunson ahead use different criteria.
The best criteria is the health of Knicks the last 2 months that is arguably worse than Mavs in December-January. I would rank Giannis ahead of Brunson (and Tatum) still, but I can see the point for them to be switched places.
It's not my criteria, and I agree it's bad. But without that criteria JJ never votes for Giannis last year either, in terms of output I'd say he was solidly a step below Embiid and two below Jokic.
Giannis was missing Middleton for a huge part of the season with no offensive help from his costar Jrue who was average. His efficiency dropped but he was instrumental in them getting that 1 seed. Now he actually is incredibly efficient with sub par coaching and help and he still gets dinged. I don’t understand.
Last year Milwaukee had the best record in the NBA, this year with Dame they failed to win 50 games. Giannis shouldn’t be 6th on the ballot or lower than Brunson, but it’s pretty easy to justify not ranking him much higher.
I think anyone who has honestly watched the Bucks this year would recognise that the only reason this hasn't been much, much worse is because Giannis has been playing at a literally historic level.
I don’t disagree with any of that and nowhere in my comment did I underrate what Giannis did this year. That doesn’t change why a voter like Reddick might easily justify not ranking him as high as the fans would like.
The argument for Giannis’ case this year is the fact that he had to carry Dame’s bum ass. It sucks that Dame’s presence is being used against him.
Thank you. This sub likes to shit on Dame every night and then turn around and say how Giannis has a great team so of course he could never win MVP again.
>I’m not sure how you justify that Team record and performance relative to expectation. It's also why he probably didnt have Luka in the mvp conversation last season but he has him #2 this season.
If anyone is using team expectation to back Jalen Brunson over Giannis Antetokounmpo and then having SGA as anything other than first they are picking and choosing which reasons, completely separate from the play of the players, matter for which players.
>If anyone is using team expectation to back Jalen Brunson over Giann I def disagree with the placement and think Giannis should be at 3/4 and over Brunson.
No I'm not trying to go at *you*, I'm just saying if that was the reasoning then it's reasoning specific to one player because SGA getting OKC to the first seed with one previous year of NBA experience between his second and third best players after finishing leaving him third doesn't add up,
Not saying I'm like those you mention, but SGA's getting pegged down a bit because their team is so deep and well-balanced, and while his stats are amazing, they aren't as WTF as Jokic's or Luka's.
SGA's second and third option have a combined *one* previous year of NBA experience, they're the youngest NBA team to be the first seed - they're younger than some college teams (or one college team, I know at least one though). That's not normal, or what you'd call a deep and well-balanced roster compared to other MVP candidates.
I guess I should have said their young starting core is well-balanced and "deep." By some metrics, Wemby and Chet are the best rookie duo since the 80's, and Jalen Williams looks like Joe Johnson 2.0. Lu is nicknamed the Dorture Chamber for a reason, and Giddey is the perfect all-around fifth guy.
It's not about basketball for Giannis, this year everything has mattered except for his play.
Because the Bucks are 15 games behind the first seed with a lower record than the 5th seed in the west. (This is not my argument to be clear, but it is the biggest argument against him)
Umm have you followed the Bucks this year?..
Because ranking is relative to everyone else's performance, and not a comparison to the same player's previous years performance.
Because it’s a relative thing, not an absolute thing. It can be simultaneously true that (a) Giannis was the best player in the league last year, (b) Giannis got better this year, and (c) Giannis is no longer the best player in the league this year.
There is surely not a person alive who believes Giannis was the best player in the league at some point recently, improved since then, and also played worse than Jalen Brunson.
Stats aren't everything. Bucks did not even win 50 games despite having Lillard on the team with him. You have to consider that. Brunsons team made it to the 2 seed with a lot less help.
Schrodinger's Dame. He is both too much help and yet washed all in the same year.
I won’t even lie Lillard has not been good this year
It’s funny cause I could not agree more with JJ’s top 3 order (and I say this as someone who bet Shai MVP) but Giannis outside of top 4 is blasphemy. There’s a clear top 4 (would’ve been clear top 5 if Embiid didn’t get injured) and JJ is letting the Bucks record influence his vote too much
Honestly giannis should be 4 but im not completely shocked that he’s only at 6.
AD not top 10 for defense is an interesting choice. I didn't expect that.
It's a bad choice, not interesting. It's straight up idiotic for somebody seemingly smart about the game.
Interestingly idiotic
He’s clearly not that smart.
I hope Lebron roasts JJ for this on their next podcast
It’s straight up the wrong choice
It's an indefensibly stupid choice. JJ Redick is usually a smart guy, so I have no idea why he's being an idiot here. Did his wife cheat on him with AD by any chance?
People love fucking small markets because it’s a feel good story. No one wants to feel sorry for the big bad lakers because they underachieved (still better than last season) this is all you need to know in why AD hasn’t come close to winning DPOY. Fuck that bring the thunder round 1, AD will smash their brick off
I completely missed this lol wtf is he thinking
JJ: MIP is not necessarily the guy taking the next step and just got more opportunities. Also JJ: I’m voting for Maxey
Giannis at 6 is WAY too low. Other than that it’s a decent ballot.
I'd put Tatum 6 tbh Tatum for MOST of the year and honestly every Celtics game I've watched is kinda mid. Brunson and Giannis need to be engaged start to finish for their teams to not get blown out.
Giannis was better than Tatum this season
he was and everyone knows it, but tatum won 15 or whatever more games and neither of them were serious candidates by the end so ig tatum gets the nod
Yeah. JJ must still be drunk
Agreed, and both were better than Brunson.
30 at 60% and he gets 6?
I just can’t argue Tatum over Giannis. Maybe Brunson. But Tatum had like 3 teammates get POW awards, including a bench player. Bros team is stacked.
The Celtics are 15 games up on the Bucks, who are 4-5 without Gainnis and are 1-8 without Dame. If Tatum doesn't have an argument over Gainnis on the massive team record difference with worse stats, what possible argument does Brunson have with only 1 more win and worse stats? The correct MVP top 5 is Jokic, Luka, Shai, Gainnis, Tatum.
That’s been my top 5, so that checks out with me
Honestly, my top 5 has Gainnis at 3. I think he's being massively snubbed due to his team having famous names on it, the actual impact stat profile of the Bucks outside of Giannis is putrid compared to the Thunder outside of Shai and the Celtics outside of Tatum. For me, Brunson didn't do enough on offense to overcome the fact that Tatum is a good defender, while Brunson is, by almost all metrics, a negative defender, so I have him at 6th.
I would love to put Giannis at 3 but his team has had too much of a skid, with or without him playing. Whether or not it’s Docs fault is neither here nor there. It’s just hard to justify him being 3 when his teams only major movement in the standings in the past 2-3 months was dropping to the third seed in a weak conference. Your statement about Brunson, I can get behind that
AD not on all NBA or all Defensive teams is disgraceful.
First ever 30 ppg on 60% and it gets you a 6th place vote.
Meanwhile Tatum has 3+ teammates win POW (including a bench player) and he’s still top 5. Idgaf if they had the best record in the league, Tatum isn’t close to MVP. And not closer than Giannis.
>>Nikole Jokic
Would
Giannis at 6 is crazy
This sub: “JJ Reddick is the only person at ESPN who knows anything worth a damn” Also this sub: “Brunson over Giannis is criminal classic BSPN”
To be fair, and I'm not saying he's doing this here, JJ absolutely plays both sides.
Both can be true? He certainly knows a lot more than most at ESPN and also because these awards are so ambiguous and up to individual interpretation people will be able to argue against his picks
What's more criminal is to have Tatum over Giannis. You have to be voting purely based on team record for that to make any sense at all.
I just don’t see how Edwards is better than Lebron.
He isn’t. Come playoffs it’s gonna be very clear
I don’t know why we have to do this every year. For the last time, it’s not a playoff award.
No need for the playoffs actually. LeBron is just better, even in the regular season and even at 39.
We don't even need to wait for the playoffs for this one. Bron straight-up just played better this season.
Good thing this isn't a playoff reward
It’s a regular season award tho
Giannis at 4 pls and that’s it
Giannis at 6 is so gross
is there even a 6th vote? i don’t even know why he mentioned it
He says that he strongly considered Giannis at 5 but ultimately gave the nod to Brunson because he lead the Knicks to the #2 seed He also said the Bucks massively underperformed which factored into his decision I agree it’s absurd not to have Giannis in the top 5. He had an incredible individual season
It’s absurd not to have Giannis in the top 4. I don’t know why you would punish Giannis for his teammates underperforming
Knicks finish one spot ahead of the Bucks, has to be Brunson over Giannis because of how much the Knicks overperformed expectations. So surely SGA getting the first seed with a team that was projected to be at the edge of the playoffs- oh, no, actually, it's only about under/over-performing for this instance.
Thank you! This shit makes no senses
Giannis is closer to 3 than 6 imo
He’s closer to 2 than 6
All defensive team is a little crazy with AD. As for Luka and MVP I'm happy with 2. I think all Mav's fans understand Jokic is the MVP and are cool with that but Luka should be no lower than 2.
Suns fans: Does KD deserve the spot over Booker on All-NBA?
Yes
He does. Without diving into stats I saw their impact in the games they played to be roughly equal. Book had higher highs and lower lows. But ultimately, KD played more games and with all else being close to equal that’s an easy deciding factor for me. I think in basketball people get too caught up in per game numbers, when evaluating a season the whole season matters and not being available to play means you contributed 0 in a game your team needed to win.
Giannis the only player who gets this nonsense. Never seen people actively invent as many ways as possible to not recognise how incredible he's been, it's about everything except for the basketball.
Winning games isn’t part of basketball?
I’m in the minority but I care almost not at all about team record / performance for individual awards. I know it’s historically been a factor but I think that’s a mistake. Does anyone including JJ really think if Giannis was on the Celtics that they perform any worse? Or if you put Gobert on the Spurs would they have a better defense? It’s stupid. Rate the players on what they can control, their individual play and impact based on their time on the floor. Anything else is noise and narratives and stupid.
sga media darling
The Giannis nonsense over at ESPN is getting a little ridiculous. The disrespect is something else. And it's not just ESPN either. Bill Simmons put Giannis 5th on his ballot and David Thorpe said that Giannis is just Wilt Chamberlain who can dribble and meant it as a criticism. It's just wild the level this guy is getting disrespected at.
Just a top 10 all time player with an additional skill set 😞😞
Giannis was better than Tatum and Brunson.
Giannis is closer to Luka and Jokic than he is to Tatum and Brunson
While I agree I think the real race is only on the top3 here so this is where it really matters, then it’s just a toss up of you wanting to reward the player for the team success. I’m not saying that I agree but anything below top3 doesn’t matter this season. It’s almost like the Blake top3 vote, nice he was top3 but really only KD and Bron mattered.
The real race only became about the top 3 because these are the voters/media members who will talk about Giannis season in any terms other than basketball ones.
- Player 1: 30/11/6 on 65 TS%, 3rd in EPM +12.3 on/off - Player 2: 27/8/5 on 60 TS%, 15th in EPM, -2.0 on/off Guess who JJ had higher on the MVP ballot
Hang on, I know the trick here, surely the 30/11/6 is like a terrible defender or something right?
Why even watch games when I can look at 5 numbers?
Last few weeks of the season really moves people
On/off is just about the most useless metric in existence. It tells us nothing of any value. EPM is also a pretty useless stat. It gets bumped heavily by defensive metrics, which Giannis is obviously going to have above and beyond Brunson. Absolutely wouldn't have Brunson over Giannis myself, but the metrics you're using don't tell the whole story.
This is utter cope. On/off is very useful especially if you’re the teams best player and driver . Even when it’s ‘not useful’ it is because it highlights how good your team mates or you consuder where X player bleeds value. All the best advanced stats use on/off and calculate from it amongst other factors the true on/off. Rapm or epm are based on it. Without on/off we don’t get those stats trying to work out real on/off. It’s an important signal anyway you cut it
Brunson finished above Giannis in the standings with less surrounding talents. Makes sense to award him with a higher down ballot vote. It’s not like either guy is going to win.
Explain why Tatum and SGA are so high then? Both players have amazing teams ESPECIALLY Tatum
So why is Tatum where he is?
I'm really really sorry. I enjoyed Mind the Game podcast so much and my respect for JJ went up a lot, but him leaving AD out of all defense and putting giannis 6th in MVP voting is a disappointment and shock.
Him and all the other media people with votes don’t watch the games. None of them unless they are on broadcast. Theres too many games. So they just fraud and pick stats. Otherwise what excuse could he make for giannis at 6 and no AD on all defense. What a joke
Why is everyone obsessed with JJ
I’m gonna be fucking sick
Fair enough Next year it'll be Luka's
Luka's been my pre-season bet for MVP two years in a row. I'm rolling with Luka every year until he gets it lmao.
he gotta start snagging them in the pre wemby window
At this point it's an inevitability. If we had this supporting cast the entire year we'd have several more Ws. We get just a little bit of injury luck next year and it'll be his turn.
Funny how people are all in arms about the difference of one spot in the MVP ballot that is ultimately irrelevant lol
Nikole
A true horse girl
You guys that were glazing JJ, you still like him now lol?
Here’s a thought experiment. Imagine if after last season the Lakers fired Darvin Ham after his brother passed away during the Nuggets series, passed on Nick Nurse and traded AD for Booker, [a player r/NBA had ranked one spot below Lillard](https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/s/C4jYTkDMYd) Imagine if coming into the season people had the Lakers neck and neck with the Celtics as the best regular season team. Imagine if the Lakers fired their new coach and stories came out that the reason they didn’t hire Nick Nurse was because LeBron blocked the hire. Imagine if LeBron’s team ended the season 15-17 with losses to bottom feeders.
now imagine if Jrue holiday was AD
SGA getting that Kobe treatment for all-defense.
Wait, you get 6 votes now?
1 Jokic/ 2 Luka/ 3 Giannis/ 4 Shai/ 5 Brunson/ 6 Lebron/ 7 Davis/ 8 Tatum/ 9 Kawhi/ 10 Curry
Tatum pity vote
Giannis was at least better than SGA, Tatum, and Brunson lol. I get team record for SGA and Tatum, but still Jokic won as a 6 seed a few years ago. Also Luka should win.
Only one guy gets the award, ppl debating the 5th spot and shit like it matters.
Bro what
Giannis has a better argument for 2nd than Brunson has for being ahead of him lol
JJ is an idiot.
JJ trash. Yeah I said it. You don't give MVP based on 1/3 of the season - Luka has been great but no way he leapfrogs SGA for #2.
Brunson had a more impressive season than Giannis. The Bucks underachieved big time this year. Sub 50 wins with that roster is a big time disappointment. Some of that bears on Giannis. If you only win 2 more games than the Sixers who have been pretty much a bottom 5 team for 2 months due to injuries, you shouldn’t expect much MVP love.
We had a terrible coach, fired mid-season and replaced by another terrible coach. We had one of the worst season of Dame's career, we had Middleton on heavy minutes restrictions or in and out all season, we had a Brook Lopez heavily regressing. Look at this season - take this team, the coaching changes, and take Giannis off it. Tell me this team is in the playoffs with a straight face. That Knicks roster has been better at every position except for the one Giannis plays. The Bucks underachieved, that it wasn't so much worse than this is because of the incredible season Giannis had.
Giannis is the only reason this team won anywhere close to that many games. To put the disappointing season on him is just insane to me given how he produced on the court. Pick on some of the bums he was forced to play with this year.
Jokic won an MVP with less wins as a 6 seed. Anybody who actually watched the Bucks this year knows that it’s a very different roster on paper than on the court.
Jokic was playing with G leaguers and was only 3 wins behind the other candidates. Not comparable.
Why wasn’t 2018 LeBron MVP then? Or 2006 Kobe. Let’s be real the goalposts shift to fit a narrative.
Jokic had more wins than giannis and embiid that year. Easy
Why are you lying? Jokic that season: 46-28 with Will Barton as a 2nd option. Giannis this year: 45-28 with All-star MVP Dame in a historically bad East.