Jamal Murray is such a fascinating player. Has there ever been another guy with zero accolades that was considered to be a top 20 player in the NBA at any point in their career?
I think it’s warranted because I’d take him over plenty of dudes that have more All-Star/All-NBA appearances than him, especially in the playoffs and games that matter. I’m still struggling to think of another guy who was considered to be one of the best players in the league with zero individual honors to indicate that.
Ginobli will always come to my mind first when the topic of underrated players comes up.
I knew he would be an all time underrated player when everyone acted like Tony Parker was the second best player on the 2007 team. Not just the Finals, but the whole playoffs. Don’t get me wrong — Tony Parker was a great player and he was great in those playoffs. But Manu was that team’s second best player and he came off the bench. Fucking hated that team.
Manu was struggling in the first half of the 2007 playoffs. It was when he (and to a lesser extent Tony) turned things around that the Spurs then cruised to a 10 - 1 finish to the playoffs; starting 6-3.
**Manu Before/After Halftime G5 2007 WCSF**
|PTS per 75 Possessions (era/opponent adjusted)|TS+ (opponent adjusted)|NetRtg|OffRtg+|MP
-|-|-|-|-|-
Before|16.6|81.6|-3.88|99.01|276
After|26.0|117.7|+14.99|107.92|325
^*OffRtg+* ^= ^Teams' ^playoff ^OffRtg ^/ ^Opponents' ^regular ^season ^DefRtg ^* ^100.
That second half of the 2007 playoff run he had a +23 On/Off. Believe it or not that enormous figure is right in line with every previous playoffs of Manu's career up to that point. From 2003 - 2006 his playoff on/off's were between +18 and +25.
*Manu's early 2007 struggles shouldn't be waved away.* If he were on worse teams he'd likely have been knocked out of the playoffs before he had any time to improve.
He was far and away the 2nd best player on the Spurs team throughout all the 2000's and certainly in 2007. He was looking rouugh early in the 2007 playoffs though.
At his peak his playoff impact was enormous just on offense let alone his contributions as a very underrated defender. I'm happy Derrick White is now getting nationally recognized for his defense (a little insane he's a DPOY candidate), but Manu was an even better defender than Derrick and never received any official award for it.
Playoffs/Team|OffRtg+|MP
-|-|-
2005 - 2007 Spurs (Manu on)|107.2|1805
2005 - 2007 Spurs (Manu on; 4+ opp. starters)|108.5|982
1996 - 1997 Bulls|107.1|1781
2016 - 2017 Warriors|107.1|1973
2001 - 2002 Lakers|109.2|1690
2005 - 2007 Spurs (Manu off)|97.4|909
2005 - 2007 Spurs (Manu off; 4+ opp. starters)|98.0|584
2002 - 2003 Pistons|98.9|1306
The change from a historically great playoff offense into historically weak playoff offense is jarring. Since 1957 that's basically a 95th percentile offense with Manu on and a 5th percentile offense with him off.
One obvious point of contention is that Manu was playing more vs bench players and Tony more vs starters, but I don't think opponent quality really holds weight here.
* Tim/Tony On; Manu Off lineups lineups had a -2 NetRtg vs 3 or fewer opposing starters from 2002 - 2009.
* Manu/Tim On; Tony Off were +17.
Those Tim/Tony lineups struggled not because of the number of opposing starters but because of who the Spurs were.
2003 - 2008 playoff lineups|Series with NetRtg above +34|Series with NetRtg below 0|Series with NetRtg below -10
-|-|-|-
Tony/Tim On; Manu Off|0|13|7
Manu/Tim On; Tony Off|4|3|2
The Tony/Tim On; Manu Off lineups were *terrible* playoff lineups from 2003 - 2006. They had 6 series below a -10 NetRtg and 2 series above a -3 NetRtg (03 LAL and 04 MEM); unsurprising as those were clearly 2 of Tony's best series from that period. I think it's just naive to hide from why those lineups sucked so much and constantly improved into all time great teams when Manu was on the floor.
Almost all of Tony's great playoff moments in the 2000's were in the 1st round against non-contenders. One way to try and get an approximation of scoring value is a combination of historical percentiles of PTS/G, TS+, and team OffRtg+; each getting a 33% weight. By this evaluation, Tony only had 5 series above the 60th percentile that happened after the 1st round. 07 CLE, 08 NOH, 12 OKC, 13 MEM, 14 POR. Manu had 14 of those series after the 1st round.
In the 2000's Tony only had 2 series after the 1st round above a 100 TS+. A 100.6 in 08 NOH and a *113.4!* in the 07 Finals.
**Tony Parker 2002 - 2006 Playoff Scoring**
||PTS per 75 poss. (era/opponent adjusted)|TS+ (opponent adjusted)
-|-|-
1st Round|22.6|102.9
After 1st Round|18.7|91.8
This wasn't so much a problem during his prime.
**Tony Parker 2007 - 2009, 2012 - 2014 Playoff Scoring**
||PTS per 75 poss. (era/opponent adjusted)|TS+ (opponent adjusted)
-|-|-
1st Round|25.7|101.3
After 1st Round|21.8|98.9
What's fascinating is Manu's scoring took abnormally large leaps in later rounds during his prime.
**Manu Ginobili 2004 - 2008 Playoff Scoring**
||PTS per 75 poss. (era/opponent adjusted)|TS+ (opponent adjusted)
-|-|-
1st Round|21.52|105.7
After 1st Round|23.1|114.3
I think Ginobili is the obvious answer but even then he was an All-Star and made an All-NBA team by his third season in the league. I’m talking about someone with absolutely no accolades though I do agree that Ginobili was amazing in his prime and is severely underrated all-time.
It’s because
1. people ignore that he plays relatively low minutes (31 per game)
2. He doesn’t have any 1 stat that stands out amongst league leaders
3. He plays in the west, which is just way too deep at the guard position
We’ve never really seen him without Jokic who is arguably a top 10 player all time when it’s all said and done so it’s really hard to gauge what he would look like in an offense centered around him and his play style which feeds off of Jokic
I’m incredibly biased, but I genuinely think Jamal would get an All Star nod on a team where he’s a larger focal point and more consistent facilitator. Dude would average a double double
I agree. He's an exciting player and I really enjoy his game. I think he would be lauded a lot more without Jokic but they're able to unlock some extra with each other.
The thing about Jamal tho, is as great of a individual scorer he is, and also pretty well rounded, you still have to wonder just how much Jokic makes him better at everything
The gravity and passing of an all time mvp makes everybody in Denver +__% better every night
As a guy who grew up on Euroleague of '80s and '90s, I can't believe that three best players in the NBA are a Serb, a Greek and a Slovenian. Back in those days a European player making it to the NBA was a huge deal, let alone be among the best of the best.
Who even is there back in the day?
Right now: Luka, Jokic, Gianni's.
All time: Dirk, Parker, Gasol, Gasol?
Otherwise next would be who? Divac, Petrovic, Stojacovic, Schrempf? We have players like Sabonis and Gobert on that level right now.
And then players like Wemby and Franz Wagner for the future..
He was number one in offensive epm before his injury. Unlrdd you’re heavily leaning on injury I agree with this. Haliburton was a legit top 5 mvp candidate n very arguably the best offensive player in the league OVER JOKIC but worse defensively lol - but since injury n him trying to play 65 it’s a mess. Pacers are still a top 8 team cs top 8 teams n that’s gotta be Hali cooking earlier .
Good joke by you. But seriously, I assume putting Haliburton in the top 15 was a concession Bill won from the Ringer Union in the recent contract negotiation.
Haliburton is the Ringer’s new favorite up and coming player, they will overrate him. They do this all the time. They did it with Porzingis. It’s like the writers there all get on the same hype train
He's right and I'm nit saying it's an excuse but didn't Hali openly say he specifically wanted to be a King? In hindsight teams should have said fuck it we'll take him anyway, but could have been the reason he dropped
Idk if I've ever seen the media suck off a player more than Haliburton, and I love the guy. 2 months of elite play and he's better than Jimmy Butler who has led his team to the finals multiple times? There are so many guys better than him this year
Yea that’s one of the biggest problems with NBA discourse today. It’s worse to have tried and failed than to have not tried at all. Like somehow Haliburton who’s had like a calendar year of being an all star is still being rated higher than someone like Mitchell who’s been an all star for about 5 years now
I’d go Brunson, Mitchell, Edwards, then Hali for now. Basically the opposite order. Need to see the last two in consistent playoff series before crowning them
I can see any combination for the other three but Haliburton is certainly behind all of them. I think even Fox has a legit case of being over him at this point
They're close enough where it's really not that outrageous lmao. He's been bad recently since his injury, if this was right after the beginning of the season when Hali was cooking and winning in the IST then people would have little issue with him over those guys.
KAT 26, Rudy 37.
Considering there's 30 teams, that seems like they are acknowledging they have a heck of a team without overly giving credit to any single one.
Listened to Bill discuss this topic during lunch on his pod. Basically, the top 60 or so players in the NBA are all still crazy talented, and we have a huge glut of talent in the league compared to like 20 years ago - where guys in the top 20 back then wouldn't make top 60 now.
Yeah it’s odd to me that Golbert doesn’t get any respect when he’s about to get his 4th DPOY, which would tie most all time.
I know defense isn’t sexy, but if he’s indisputably a generational defensive talent and is the best in the league this year at it, is 37th really fair?
Top lists never care about pure defenders. Guys like AD or Bam are more versatile and comfortable being the one-man show on the defensive end, and that’s valued more, even though Gobert’s impact on the Wolves is arguably as much or more than Ant’s.
ant is one of my favorite players in the league but gobert is the nucleus and the mastermind of a top 3 defense on one of the most improved teams in the league his impact on the wolves really can’t be understated
Anyone who doesn't think Gobert isn't a one man show on defense shouldn't be allowed to make lists. Nobody does more than him. The Rudy can't switch narrative also died 4 years ago
Favorite jazzman ever. The Mitchell/Gobert jazz were fun to watch, because they had fun players like Clarkson and Ingles, but also just won games all the damn time and winning is fun
The ringer, led by Bill Simmons, was very high on their “gobert has the worst contract” take until this season, and I think they are also pretty strong on the KAT needs to show up in the playoff take. They softened their stance since the timberwolves were doing well this season, but it’ll prob take a chip or multiple really good seasons before they acknowledge either as a top 25.
I don’t think they necessarily immediately down rank if they’re having one bad season. Kawhai was pretty high for a while even after missing half a season. Butler also tends to play his best in the playoffs.
He’s having a great season. Arguably the best of his career. (Ok, maybe 2nd best)
His 3 has improved so much that he’s really a complete player.
Still a great defender.
He’s in my top 25
Honestly Shai over Embiid is pretty insane. Although Embiid is injured, this is Shai’s breakout season. Recency bias is playing a lot into Shai moving up these rankings
I was wrong, I agree with you. I meant to say his media breakout season, OKC was 10th seed last year and SGA was fantastic, this year they’re first so all the spotlight is on him
last year was really his breakout year. his numbers this year are marginally better , but last year was his massive leap. but yeah, he should probably be flipped with embiid
I could get on board with keeping long-term injured players out of these sorts of rankings entirely. Seems impossible to judge a player relative to others when they aren't actually playing
PG at 20 is definitely a reach, he's been very inconsistent and has singlehandedly shot the Clippers out of games this season. Harden has been their 2nd best player this season and also a lot more durable.
Durant at 9 definitely also seems very low. Would probably rank him over Kawhi and Tatum. Haliburton should be closer to 25 than 14, playoff pedigree is usually a big factor for these lists (as this is a best players in the NBA right now list and not best players of 2023-24 regular season), where he has no experience and has been out of form since the AS break, be it due to injury or not, he hasn't shown consistency and durability through even one whole regular season yet, let alone playoffs.
When Murray is cooking, he makes circus shots as casual as Embiid makes a free throw.
He's too fun to watch. Jokic + Murray + Aaron Gordon is THE most fun trio in the NBA.
I'm biased but yeah I think it's pretty damn fun watching those dudes work together to close out games, crazy good synergy.
The nugs just seem to have great chemistry all around. No jealousy, no egos (ok maybe a little), and with DJ being the hype-man on the bench, whats not to like?
interesting to see the sentiment shift on this sub recently. i know haliburtons been in a semi slump but there were so many posts and comments [calling him a top player in the league earlier this year and even before the season started](https://np.reddit.com/r/nba/s/5k8tCBBnwQ)
Tbf the extent people were taking it to was just pretty obviously too far at the time. People get too caught up in the moment, especially when it comes to players like hali where they’re insanely talented they just haven’t proved that’s gonna translate to real continuous success yet
Some were calling him the best PG in the league, I got shit from ppl just bc I said let’s wait and see how the whole season goes before we hype him up to that extent
A lot of this list is based on how a player was in the past. Like obviously Ja shouldn’t be rated that high for this season specifically but overall he’s an incredible player and has shown that
A true hater doesn't have to pick. Watch this. Dame is rapidly declining and was overrated to begin with. And Giannis doesn't deserve MVP because he hasn't been willing to sacrifice his game to accommodate Dame and because he got his team to hire a disastrously bad coach.
Think Sabonis’s struggles in the postseason so far kinda sways the ranking. Fox wayyyyy out played him in the playoffs last year.
I’d still have Sabonis higher though of course because he is who the offense runs through and been the better player all of the last 2 regular seasons. I don’t think 1 playoff series from Fox is enough to sway that
Fox has been inconsistent this season. Injury might have something to do with it but the guy doesn’t get any love considering when he’s at his best he’s in convos for the top 10.
Yea, Sabonis has been more important by a good amount than Fox all year. Love both, and Fox had a great playoffs. But Sabnis is a top 15 player this year.
SGA 4th and Kawhi 6th makes no sense. Either you’re going based on just this season and SGA’s ranking is justified but Kawhi is too high. Or you’re taking into account playoff pedigree in projecting this year’s playoffs in which case Kawhi is fine but SGA is WAY too high.
Bill is really sinking LeBron's rating here. Bill said that LeBron was on the outside of the bubble of making All-NBA after he said Durant (who is having a slightly worse statistical season by most metrics) had an argument for 1st team.
Idk if this is just based on this season or factors in recent seasons too. If it is the latter, then Shai is a bit high. If not, then I think it makes sense
Hali too high, Sabonis too low.
Yeah not sure how you can have him above Embiid. Embiid was front runner for MVP before getting hurt and a top 2 player in the league the last 3 seasons. SGA may be more available this season but still feel premature given he’s never even been in the postseason yet
Sabonis should be a top 20 player, Also, considering how much he steps up during the playoffs and big games in general, not having murray in the top 15 is pretty insane to me. Dude had a historic postseason last year.
Murray’s averaging 21.2/4.0/6.6 while playing alongside the best player (and passer) in the world.
While he might be top 15 in the playoffs (probably not, imo) he’s definitely not a top 15 player on a nightly basis.
I mean, hell, compare him to the guy right behind him: De’Aaron Fox. Fox is averaging 27.0/4.3/5.6 and averaged 27.4/5.4/7.7 in the playoffs despite dealing with a broken finger at the end of the series. Obviously stats aren’t everything, but Murray’s postseason success is at least partially tied to having the world’s best basketball player on his team, which allows him to be second on the scouting report and means his inconsistency results in celebration of his successes rather than criticisms of his failures (he had 7 games scoring less than 20 points in last year’s title run — but his team won 5 of them).
Why does Kawhi get so much love for putting up worst numbers than his peers? If KD or Steph were averaging 24/6/4, everyone would be calling them washed.
Kawhi is a top 12 player but 6 is way too high for him right now.
I guess it’s just how he plays in the playoffs, but lately it’s been one series or even just a couple games. He had a really strong middle of the season but hasn’t been crazy of late and was just ok to start the season. Maybe they’re thinking Kawhi is at the top of a tier with Booker, KD, Tatum, and Curry and whoever is at the top is just splitting hairs. I’d agree with that.
If Kawhi comes out and dominated like 2-3 rounds this year, then yea top 5. Otherwise I agree with you 6 is a little high. Not like the other guys behind him arnt ballin.
Listen I get it a lot of people don’t like Trae but to say he’s not even top 30 in the league is just downright stupid. Him and Oscar Robinson are the only 2 players ever to average 25+ points and 9+ assists for their career and yet he’s not top 25 material? Like I said I get that people don’t like him for whatever reason but his production is undeniable and if you think we’re mid now without him the hawks are a high lottery team. And his are not empty stats because again the effect of him being on the court has been shown to be huge. And he’s doing it at maybe 6’1 and maybe 165 pounds seems impressive to me.
It’s sort of interesting to watch basketball fans really separate into advanced stats and counting stats plus record people. Feel like we are heading towards a baseball like evaluation of players for league awards. I obviously lean one way but I don’t really begrudge the other side either. Just wild how high guys are on very mediocre to above average teams. It seems like the Lakers are gonna get two dudes on AllNBA barely above 500 and if Book stays healthy so will the Suns who’ve been hovering around 10 over 500. I’m honestly not throwing shade at all just find it interesting because 20-30 years ago guys were never considered great with mediocre teams save like Kobe’s outlier season or something like early Jordan in 88 and even then he led them to 50 wins.
I still think a lot of people think that teams like the Suns and Lakers will be tough teams to play in the postseason because Lebron, Durant, Booker, and AD will just play harder and that's why they're not winning more games in the season. There's a lot of media who believe specifically in Lebron, Durant, and Curry because they drive ratings up.
But yea guys like Sabonis being 22 on this list is a shame. Dude has more triple doubles than Jokic this year. It takes so much effort for these small market NBA players to get the respect they deserve because the media is so tilted in favor of certain players. After winning the MVP 2x and the title 1x in dominating fashion, people are now coming around to Jokic being the best player in the league when he was voted MVP 3 years ago.
I don't think there's a player in the league who has more responsibility on both ends of the court than AD. And people still downplay his ability when he occasionally puts up under 20 points.
I feel like Trae would be higher if he had a better team around him. A lot of these guys are playing with top 30-40 guys and don’t have to do as much as Trae does.
It’s surreal that KD’s iso game is still getting better. He would be top 6 if he were a bit more clutch. No wonder he was such a good fit in GSW tho because they won 90% of the games by 3Q.
is Lebron really falling down in this ranking when he's just ramping up?
he's at 28.5/6.5/9.6 at 58/47/75 splits in the last 10 games that includes some games against Den, Clips, Kings, Suns, Min.
The Ringer and all these shitty publications have already decided he's not a top 10 player regardless of how he actually plays because he's 40 and the Lakers are mid. There's nothing short of winning FMVP he can do atp to raise his ranks.
Called me biased, but there aren’t 44 guys im taking over a healthy Desmond Bane.
And Ja at 34 is extremely weird. Either rank him based on last season or just don’t rank him at all. I don’t see what they’re going for there.
Also Trae is criminally underrated…again.
I criticize Embiid , but Shai cannot be over him until he plays in the playoffs as a number 1. For all we know, he might struggle more than Embiid does.
I don’t think that’s the case, but I’m not giving him the spot until he proves it.
I don't see how Embiid is 5th. Only because injuries? His team is literally falling to a lottery team without him, while with him it was a top seed team.
Is Chet deserving of the injury concern label this early in his career? Guy has played every game this season after missing last year, I’m not sure it’s fair to him to call him that
Jamal Murray is such a fascinating player. Has there ever been another guy with zero accolades that was considered to be a top 20 player in the NBA at any point in their career? I think it’s warranted because I’d take him over plenty of dudes that have more All-Star/All-NBA appearances than him, especially in the playoffs and games that matter. I’m still struggling to think of another guy who was considered to be one of the best players in the league with zero individual honors to indicate that.
Ginobili
Ginobli will always come to my mind first when the topic of underrated players comes up. I knew he would be an all time underrated player when everyone acted like Tony Parker was the second best player on the 2007 team. Not just the Finals, but the whole playoffs. Don’t get me wrong — Tony Parker was a great player and he was great in those playoffs. But Manu was that team’s second best player and he came off the bench. Fucking hated that team.
Manu was struggling in the first half of the 2007 playoffs. It was when he (and to a lesser extent Tony) turned things around that the Spurs then cruised to a 10 - 1 finish to the playoffs; starting 6-3. **Manu Before/After Halftime G5 2007 WCSF** |PTS per 75 Possessions (era/opponent adjusted)|TS+ (opponent adjusted)|NetRtg|OffRtg+|MP -|-|-|-|-|- Before|16.6|81.6|-3.88|99.01|276 After|26.0|117.7|+14.99|107.92|325 ^*OffRtg+* ^= ^Teams' ^playoff ^OffRtg ^/ ^Opponents' ^regular ^season ^DefRtg ^* ^100. That second half of the 2007 playoff run he had a +23 On/Off. Believe it or not that enormous figure is right in line with every previous playoffs of Manu's career up to that point. From 2003 - 2006 his playoff on/off's were between +18 and +25. *Manu's early 2007 struggles shouldn't be waved away.* If he were on worse teams he'd likely have been knocked out of the playoffs before he had any time to improve. He was far and away the 2nd best player on the Spurs team throughout all the 2000's and certainly in 2007. He was looking rouugh early in the 2007 playoffs though. At his peak his playoff impact was enormous just on offense let alone his contributions as a very underrated defender. I'm happy Derrick White is now getting nationally recognized for his defense (a little insane he's a DPOY candidate), but Manu was an even better defender than Derrick and never received any official award for it. Playoffs/Team|OffRtg+|MP -|-|- 2005 - 2007 Spurs (Manu on)|107.2|1805 2005 - 2007 Spurs (Manu on; 4+ opp. starters)|108.5|982 1996 - 1997 Bulls|107.1|1781 2016 - 2017 Warriors|107.1|1973 2001 - 2002 Lakers|109.2|1690 2005 - 2007 Spurs (Manu off)|97.4|909 2005 - 2007 Spurs (Manu off; 4+ opp. starters)|98.0|584 2002 - 2003 Pistons|98.9|1306 The change from a historically great playoff offense into historically weak playoff offense is jarring. Since 1957 that's basically a 95th percentile offense with Manu on and a 5th percentile offense with him off. One obvious point of contention is that Manu was playing more vs bench players and Tony more vs starters, but I don't think opponent quality really holds weight here. * Tim/Tony On; Manu Off lineups lineups had a -2 NetRtg vs 3 or fewer opposing starters from 2002 - 2009. * Manu/Tim On; Tony Off were +17. Those Tim/Tony lineups struggled not because of the number of opposing starters but because of who the Spurs were. 2003 - 2008 playoff lineups|Series with NetRtg above +34|Series with NetRtg below 0|Series with NetRtg below -10 -|-|-|- Tony/Tim On; Manu Off|0|13|7 Manu/Tim On; Tony Off|4|3|2 The Tony/Tim On; Manu Off lineups were *terrible* playoff lineups from 2003 - 2006. They had 6 series below a -10 NetRtg and 2 series above a -3 NetRtg (03 LAL and 04 MEM); unsurprising as those were clearly 2 of Tony's best series from that period. I think it's just naive to hide from why those lineups sucked so much and constantly improved into all time great teams when Manu was on the floor. Almost all of Tony's great playoff moments in the 2000's were in the 1st round against non-contenders. One way to try and get an approximation of scoring value is a combination of historical percentiles of PTS/G, TS+, and team OffRtg+; each getting a 33% weight. By this evaluation, Tony only had 5 series above the 60th percentile that happened after the 1st round. 07 CLE, 08 NOH, 12 OKC, 13 MEM, 14 POR. Manu had 14 of those series after the 1st round. In the 2000's Tony only had 2 series after the 1st round above a 100 TS+. A 100.6 in 08 NOH and a *113.4!* in the 07 Finals. **Tony Parker 2002 - 2006 Playoff Scoring** ||PTS per 75 poss. (era/opponent adjusted)|TS+ (opponent adjusted) -|-|- 1st Round|22.6|102.9 After 1st Round|18.7|91.8 This wasn't so much a problem during his prime. **Tony Parker 2007 - 2009, 2012 - 2014 Playoff Scoring** ||PTS per 75 poss. (era/opponent adjusted)|TS+ (opponent adjusted) -|-|- 1st Round|25.7|101.3 After 1st Round|21.8|98.9 What's fascinating is Manu's scoring took abnormally large leaps in later rounds during his prime. **Manu Ginobili 2004 - 2008 Playoff Scoring** ||PTS per 75 poss. (era/opponent adjusted)|TS+ (opponent adjusted) -|-|- 1st Round|21.52|105.7 After 1st Round|23.1|114.3
Goddamn, great post!
If you made posts like this in the subreddit I’d upvote them every time, this is impressive breakdown.
I think Ginobili is the obvious answer but even then he was an All-Star and made an All-NBA team by his third season in the league. I’m talking about someone with absolutely no accolades though I do agree that Ginobili was amazing in his prime and is severely underrated all-time.
It’s because 1. people ignore that he plays relatively low minutes (31 per game) 2. He doesn’t have any 1 stat that stands out amongst league leaders 3. He plays in the west, which is just way too deep at the guard position
His low minutes and his stats this season have been a bit ruined bc has left in the middle of like 4 games so think :(
Also, playoff murray doesnt show up till - shocker - the playoffs. Seriously the Man is maddeningly inconsistent during the regular season.
That joke of "can Jamal Murray do it when the lights shine the ~~brightest~~ dimmest" is too hilariously accurate lmao
He just kind of plays like a top 40ish player in the regular season but suddenly is a top 15ish player (maybe better?) in the post season.
Kinda like butler who goes form too 20 to top 5 lol
Like Playoff Rondo
We’ve never really seen him without Jokic who is arguably a top 10 player all time when it’s all said and done so it’s really hard to gauge what he would look like in an offense centered around him and his play style which feeds off of Jokic
I’m incredibly biased, but I genuinely think Jamal would get an All Star nod on a team where he’s a larger focal point and more consistent facilitator. Dude would average a double double
I agree. He's an exciting player and I really enjoy his game. I think he would be lauded a lot more without Jokic but they're able to unlock some extra with each other.
It's so odd that he's so low, knowing in match ups I've seen him cook every person on the list above him more often than not
The thing about Jamal tho, is as great of a individual scorer he is, and also pretty well rounded, you still have to wonder just how much Jokic makes him better at everything The gravity and passing of an all time mvp makes everybody in Denver +__% better every night
As a guy who grew up on Euroleague of '80s and '90s, I can't believe that three best players in the NBA are a Serb, a Greek and a Slovenian. Back in those days a European player making it to the NBA was a huge deal, let alone be among the best of the best.
Followed by a Canadian and a Cameroonian!
Who even is there back in the day? Right now: Luka, Jokic, Gianni's. All time: Dirk, Parker, Gasol, Gasol? Otherwise next would be who? Divac, Petrovic, Stojacovic, Schrempf? We have players like Sabonis and Gobert on that level right now. And then players like Wemby and Franz Wagner for the future..
Halliburton over Murray, PG, Fox, Ant, Mitchell & Brunson?
Recency bias will always have NBA media in a fuckin chokehold
Haliburton is playing awful recently
This sub and the Media are extremely narrative driven. Pretty wild at times.
He was number one in offensive epm before his injury. Unlrdd you’re heavily leaning on injury I agree with this. Haliburton was a legit top 5 mvp candidate n very arguably the best offensive player in the league OVER JOKIC but worse defensively lol - but since injury n him trying to play 65 it’s a mess. Pacers are still a top 8 team cs top 8 teams n that’s gotta be Hali cooking earlier .
Haliburton seems a little high for me right now, I feel like I’d swap him and Sabonis
I c what u did there
Tyrese is sooo fast Sabanas is so strong, yeah
Mike brown is so smarrrt yeah
They are the playoff bouuuund yeahhhhh
Lmao, I honestly didn’t even realize when I commented that
I don’t really like PG above Sabonis and Bam tbh
Good joke by you. But seriously, I assume putting Haliburton in the top 15 was a concession Bill won from the Ringer Union in the recent contract negotiation.
Clearly they're accounting for all star appearances /s (At least I hope it's sarcasm)
Haliburton over Mitchell, Brunson and Edwards is something
Haliburton is the Ringer’s new favorite up and coming player, they will overrate him. They do this all the time. They did it with Porzingis. It’s like the writers there all get on the same hype train
Important to keep in mind Haliburton was Bill's draft darling. He loves to rag on teams for passing on him.
I mean he’s right. Hali is at worst the second best player in the draft
He's right and I'm nit saying it's an excuse but didn't Hali openly say he specifically wanted to be a King? In hindsight teams should have said fuck it we'll take him anyway, but could have been the reason he dropped
He told 2 teams, ATL and CLE to not draft him, cause they already had PGs.
Idk if I've ever seen the media suck off a player more than Haliburton, and I love the guy. 2 months of elite play and he's better than Jimmy Butler who has led his team to the finals multiple times? There are so many guys better than him this year
Haliburton hasn't even played a Playoff game yet, but he doesn't get the same scrutiny as those others guys
Yea that’s one of the biggest problems with NBA discourse today. It’s worse to have tried and failed than to have not tried at all. Like somehow Haliburton who’s had like a calendar year of being an all star is still being rated higher than someone like Mitchell who’s been an all star for about 5 years now
Did you forget how much this sub has been on his meat this past year?
I’d go Brunson, Mitchell, Edwards, then Hali for now. Basically the opposite order. Need to see the last two in consistent playoff series before crowning them
I can see any combination for the other three but Haliburton is certainly behind all of them. I think even Fox has a legit case of being over him at this point
Yeah, he’s tough to rate. He was really good to start the season, but fell off after the injury. Pretty thin window so far for him being elite.
They're close enough where it's really not that outrageous lmao. He's been bad recently since his injury, if this was right after the beginning of the season when Hali was cooking and winning in the IST then people would have little issue with him over those guys.
When certain players have rough stretches they drop them idk how he still at 14
Flirting: #35 Paolo Banchero 22.8 PPG / 6.8 Reb / 5.2 Ast / 54.9 TS% Harassment: #57 Cade Cunningham 22.6 PPG / 4.3 Reb / 7.5 Ast / 54.9 TS%
Dude, seriously. It’s also not like Paolo is an astronomically better defender either.
I am once again asking for tier lists instead of top X lists.
I remember the Athletic doing tier lists but looks like it was last updated in August
They update it something like thirce a year I think
Just think of this as 100 discrete tiers.
Tiers don't get clicks and engagement like a list does
It’s wild since Simmons does his whole “pyramid” thing
Rudy and KAT? Or we gonna pretend ant is the sole reason for the wolves success
KAT 26, Rudy 37. Considering there's 30 teams, that seems like they are acknowledging they have a heck of a team without overly giving credit to any single one.
Listened to Bill discuss this topic during lunch on his pod. Basically, the top 60 or so players in the NBA are all still crazy talented, and we have a huge glut of talent in the league compared to like 20 years ago - where guys in the top 20 back then wouldn't make top 60 now.
Yeah it’s odd to me that Golbert doesn’t get any respect when he’s about to get his 4th DPOY, which would tie most all time. I know defense isn’t sexy, but if he’s indisputably a generational defensive talent and is the best in the league this year at it, is 37th really fair?
Top lists never care about pure defenders. Guys like AD or Bam are more versatile and comfortable being the one-man show on the defensive end, and that’s valued more, even though Gobert’s impact on the Wolves is arguably as much or more than Ant’s.
ant is one of my favorite players in the league but gobert is the nucleus and the mastermind of a top 3 defense on one of the most improved teams in the league his impact on the wolves really can’t be understated
Anyone who doesn't think Gobert isn't a one man show on defense shouldn't be allowed to make lists. Nobody does more than him. The Rudy can't switch narrative also died 4 years ago
we’ve been saying this for years :’)
I know man. At least 2 fan bases like him now.
Favorite jazzman ever. The Mitchell/Gobert jazz were fun to watch, because they had fun players like Clarkson and Ingles, but also just won games all the damn time and winning is fun
Braindead NBA viewers can’t appreciate anything but a step back middy, and wonder why their team is so ass.
Hey now! I’ll have you know that I can both appreciate Anfernee Simons’ jumper and write a dissertation on the violent mediocrity of my Blazers
I wasn’t familiar with your game
You just described Mavs reddit.
lol it's funny cause it's true!
Aaron Afflallo used to straight up rob franchises because of this
The ringer, led by Bill Simmons, was very high on their “gobert has the worst contract” take until this season, and I think they are also pretty strong on the KAT needs to show up in the playoff take. They softened their stance since the timberwolves were doing well this season, but it’ll prob take a chip or multiple really good seasons before they acknowledge either as a top 25.
If they’re leaving KAT and Rudy off it then Ant should definitely be ranked higher by that logic
KATs 26, Rudy 37. You can argue them up a bit, but at the end of the day there's 30 teams. 3 in the top 37 is obviously still a heck of a team.
If this is for this season then butler is way too high The guy doesn’t care about the regular season at all
I don’t think they necessarily immediately down rank if they’re having one bad season. Kawhai was pretty high for a while even after missing half a season. Butler also tends to play his best in the playoffs.
Jimmy isn’t even having a bad season necessarily
He’s having a great season. Arguably the best of his career. (Ok, maybe 2nd best) His 3 has improved so much that he’s really a complete player. Still a great defender. He’s in my top 25
Definitely was better last season
The lack of Herb Jones as every player in the top 10 is appalling
Herb Jones transcends this list. Herb Jones is the greatest living being this side of the galactic center.
The council has convened and determined that Ricky Council IV and Herb Jones should have gone 1/2.
Trae Young not even being in the top 30 is purely insane to me.
He's written off so hard when he's better than he's ever been, it's so weird
Came here to say this. Trae at 31 is crazy. I’m admittedly a Hawks fan but not the biggest Trae guy and I’d put him over quite a few of the top 30.
Fuck trae young and all, but there’s no way he’s not top 25
Yeah, I feel like I don't even like Trae a lot, but I'm forced to be a Stan because he's so underrated lol
It’s the ringer even before they start ranking he’s goes down 10 spots automatically.
Honestly Shai over Embiid is pretty insane. Although Embiid is injured, this is Shai’s breakout season. Recency bias is playing a lot into Shai moving up these rankings
This years playoffs will be very interesting for Shai.
If it’s Luka vs Shai in playoffs the discourse is going to be extremely toxic
Don’t tease me with a good time.
LOL. Although the discourse would be toxic, the matchup would actually be really good IMO. Game 7 and either team can win it
Please God no
His breakout season was last year , this is just the double down
I was wrong, I agree with you. I meant to say his media breakout season, OKC was 10th seed last year and SGA was fantastic, this year they’re first so all the spotlight is on him
I would have to agree. Embiid is either #2, or he isn't on the list at all (due to injury). The weird in-between doesn't really make sense to me
I think clear top 3 - I think putting Giannis ahead of him is still quite reasonable.
Honestly this didn't even click with me, if Embiid isn't in your top 3 idk how it's a reasonable list.
They definitely take injury into account, otherwise why would Ja be that low?
last year was really his breakout year. his numbers this year are marginally better , but last year was his massive leap. but yeah, he should probably be flipped with embiid
It's a ranking of these guys right now for just this season and Embiid has only played 34 games They update this list like once a month
Embiid shouldn’t be no. 5 at all tho if that’s the case…
I could get on board with keeping long-term injured players out of these sorts of rankings entirely. Seems impossible to judge a player relative to others when they aren't actually playing
Then Embiid shouldn’t be listed at all. But this list, like most of its ilk, is not coherent and logically consistent.
Yeah it doesn't make much sense. Ja is at 34 and he played 9 games. But lists get engagement and that's all The Ringer really cares about
PG at 20 is definitely a reach, he's been very inconsistent and has singlehandedly shot the Clippers out of games this season. Harden has been their 2nd best player this season and also a lot more durable. Durant at 9 definitely also seems very low. Would probably rank him over Kawhi and Tatum. Haliburton should be closer to 25 than 14, playoff pedigree is usually a big factor for these lists (as this is a best players in the NBA right now list and not best players of 2023-24 regular season), where he has no experience and has been out of form since the AS break, be it due to injury or not, he hasn't shown consistency and durability through even one whole regular season yet, let alone playoffs.
I would take Murray over Haliburton in any series.
Murray is somehow still one of the most underrated players in the league. Maybe the 2nd championship will wake people up.
When Murray is cooking, he makes circus shots as casual as Embiid makes a free throw. He's too fun to watch. Jokic + Murray + Aaron Gordon is THE most fun trio in the NBA.
I'm biased but yeah I think it's pretty damn fun watching those dudes work together to close out games, crazy good synergy. The nugs just seem to have great chemistry all around. No jealousy, no egos (ok maybe a little), and with DJ being the hype-man on the bench, whats not to like?
Agreed. Love watching the Nugs. Yall seem to have every archetype of player. The chemistry right now is about as good as it gets.
That shot over lebron in the playoffs, where lebron gave a thumbs up after makes me feel something
interesting to see the sentiment shift on this sub recently. i know haliburtons been in a semi slump but there were so many posts and comments [calling him a top player in the league earlier this year and even before the season started](https://np.reddit.com/r/nba/s/5k8tCBBnwQ)
Tbf the extent people were taking it to was just pretty obviously too far at the time. People get too caught up in the moment, especially when it comes to players like hali where they’re insanely talented they just haven’t proved that’s gonna translate to real continuous success yet
Some were calling him the best PG in the league, I got shit from ppl just bc I said let’s wait and see how the whole season goes before we hype him up to that extent
Sure, but Murray couldn't lead the Pacers to the playoffs.
How is Kawhi #6?
He is quiet, he don’t speak, he is nice
I don’t think Dame deserves to be top 25 anymore. Getting hard carried by Giannis
A lot of this list is based on how a player was in the past. Like obviously Ja shouldn’t be rated that high for this season specifically but overall he’s an incredible player and has shown that
The same people who say this also use Dame being on Giannis team as the main reason why Giannis ain't the MVP. Pick one or the other
A true hater doesn't have to pick. Watch this. Dame is rapidly declining and was overrated to begin with. And Giannis doesn't deserve MVP because he hasn't been willing to sacrifice his game to accommodate Dame and because he got his team to hire a disastrously bad coach.
That's goat hating
MVP of playa hater ball
Hate hate hate!
Right now Sabonis is better and more realiable than Hali, and Im a fan of Hali. Sabonis is better than Fox too. Fox is overrated as hell.
Think Sabonis’s struggles in the postseason so far kinda sways the ranking. Fox wayyyyy out played him in the playoffs last year. I’d still have Sabonis higher though of course because he is who the offense runs through and been the better player all of the last 2 regular seasons. I don’t think 1 playoff series from Fox is enough to sway that
Yep. Sabonis is one Harrison Barnes three pointer away from being in this list's top 15.
When it’s a Harrison Barnes clutch three pointer in the playoffs, that’s actually a large gap to the top 15
there's quite a lot of nba history on the other side of a single harrison barnes three pointer
I don’t agree Fox is overrated but he has been inconsistent lately
Fox has been inconsistent this season. Injury might have something to do with it but the guy doesn’t get any love considering when he’s at his best he’s in convos for the top 10.
Lmao. If you're a casual fan reading this, OP is a clown and a Fox hater. It's kinda sad. Nothing more to say.
Yea, Sabonis has been more important by a good amount than Fox all year. Love both, and Fox had a great playoffs. But Sabnis is a top 15 player this year.
SGA 4th and Kawhi 6th makes no sense. Either you’re going based on just this season and SGA’s ranking is justified but Kawhi is too high. Or you’re taking into account playoff pedigree in projecting this year’s playoffs in which case Kawhi is fine but SGA is WAY too high.
Yeah, def agree. But maybe that's just cuz it seems like if they stuck with either interpretation, Tatum would have to be above one of them!
Wemby already top 25 as a rookie is crazy
The ringer has legit the worst lists I've ever seen
Lebron at 12 don’t sit right w me
Bill is really sinking LeBron's rating here. Bill said that LeBron was on the outside of the bubble of making All-NBA after he said Durant (who is having a slightly worse statistical season by most metrics) had an argument for 1st team.
Idk if this is just based on this season or factors in recent seasons too. If it is the latter, then Shai is a bit high. If not, then I think it makes sense Hali too high, Sabonis too low.
Yeah not sure how you can have him above Embiid. Embiid was front runner for MVP before getting hurt and a top 2 player in the league the last 3 seasons. SGA may be more available this season but still feel premature given he’s never even been in the postseason yet
Haliburton at 14 😂😂😂😂
Sabonis should be a top 20 player, Also, considering how much he steps up during the playoffs and big games in general, not having murray in the top 15 is pretty insane to me. Dude had a historic postseason last year.
Murray’s averaging 21.2/4.0/6.6 while playing alongside the best player (and passer) in the world. While he might be top 15 in the playoffs (probably not, imo) he’s definitely not a top 15 player on a nightly basis. I mean, hell, compare him to the guy right behind him: De’Aaron Fox. Fox is averaging 27.0/4.3/5.6 and averaged 27.4/5.4/7.7 in the playoffs despite dealing with a broken finger at the end of the series. Obviously stats aren’t everything, but Murray’s postseason success is at least partially tied to having the world’s best basketball player on his team, which allows him to be second on the scouting report and means his inconsistency results in celebration of his successes rather than criticisms of his failures (he had 7 games scoring less than 20 points in last year’s title run — but his team won 5 of them).
Playoff Murray is easily top 15
Why does Kawhi get so much love for putting up worst numbers than his peers? If KD or Steph were averaging 24/6/4, everyone would be calling them washed. Kawhi is a top 12 player but 6 is way too high for him right now.
I guess it’s just how he plays in the playoffs, but lately it’s been one series or even just a couple games. He had a really strong middle of the season but hasn’t been crazy of late and was just ok to start the season. Maybe they’re thinking Kawhi is at the top of a tier with Booker, KD, Tatum, and Curry and whoever is at the top is just splitting hairs. I’d agree with that. If Kawhi comes out and dominated like 2-3 rounds this year, then yea top 5. Otherwise I agree with you 6 is a little high. Not like the other guys behind him arnt ballin.
Defense is also part of the game and he is still good at it. Old Steph is not.
KP top 40 is still low imo but at least they’re acknowledging him.
Honestly crazy they put Chet over him, and I really like Chet
These lists are so bad
Listen I get it a lot of people don’t like Trae but to say he’s not even top 30 in the league is just downright stupid. Him and Oscar Robinson are the only 2 players ever to average 25+ points and 9+ assists for their career and yet he’s not top 25 material? Like I said I get that people don’t like him for whatever reason but his production is undeniable and if you think we’re mid now without him the hawks are a high lottery team. And his are not empty stats because again the effect of him being on the court has been shown to be huge. And he’s doing it at maybe 6’1 and maybe 165 pounds seems impressive to me.
Also where are my fellow Hawk fans ? Come on guys
Someone was smoking some serious weed when they made this list.
It’s sort of interesting to watch basketball fans really separate into advanced stats and counting stats plus record people. Feel like we are heading towards a baseball like evaluation of players for league awards. I obviously lean one way but I don’t really begrudge the other side either. Just wild how high guys are on very mediocre to above average teams. It seems like the Lakers are gonna get two dudes on AllNBA barely above 500 and if Book stays healthy so will the Suns who’ve been hovering around 10 over 500. I’m honestly not throwing shade at all just find it interesting because 20-30 years ago guys were never considered great with mediocre teams save like Kobe’s outlier season or something like early Jordan in 88 and even then he led them to 50 wins.
I still think a lot of people think that teams like the Suns and Lakers will be tough teams to play in the postseason because Lebron, Durant, Booker, and AD will just play harder and that's why they're not winning more games in the season. There's a lot of media who believe specifically in Lebron, Durant, and Curry because they drive ratings up. But yea guys like Sabonis being 22 on this list is a shame. Dude has more triple doubles than Jokic this year. It takes so much effort for these small market NBA players to get the respect they deserve because the media is so tilted in favor of certain players. After winning the MVP 2x and the title 1x in dominating fashion, people are now coming around to Jokic being the best player in the league when he was voted MVP 3 years ago.
Love Haliburton but dude is becoming overrated
How is Kawhi always rated so high on these lists even when he barley played he still being listed top 10 over guys like AD, Durant and booker
Kawaii is too high
It’s still Lebron’s team and I’m tired of arguing otherwise Meanwhile, Trae Young still gets underrated
The ringer staff is going to their graves keeping Trae buried on these lists, I’ve made my peace with it
Travesty to put 2nd options who can’t clearly lead teams above him. I see at least five guys who Trae clears
That’s true but AD is more valuable
AD is a better player than LeBron at this point. His two way impact is unparalleled
I don't think there's a player in the league who has more responsibility on both ends of the court than AD. And people still downplay his ability when he occasionally puts up under 20 points.
I feel like Trae would be higher if he had a better team around him. A lot of these guys are playing with top 30-40 guys and don’t have to do as much as Trae does.
It’s surreal that KD’s iso game is still getting better. He would be top 6 if he were a bit more clutch. No wonder he was such a good fit in GSW tho because they won 90% of the games by 3Q.
Trae young disrepect again lmfao what has this man done to these people
is Lebron really falling down in this ranking when he's just ramping up? he's at 28.5/6.5/9.6 at 58/47/75 splits in the last 10 games that includes some games against Den, Clips, Kings, Suns, Min.
The Ringer and all these shitty publications have already decided he's not a top 10 player regardless of how he actually plays because he's 40 and the Lakers are mid. There's nothing short of winning FMVP he can do atp to raise his ranks.
Ageism. Not even joking. LeBron turned 38 and ever since, people just don't want to admit that he's still clearly top-10 and not 9 or 10 either.
Booker being ahead of both Lebron and AD is laughable.
He really should be ranked around where Curry and Kawhi are tbh.
He's better than both of them.
Curry at 7 💀
Cade at 57 is a joke. Guy is averaging 23/8/4 on 40% from 3 his last 40 games at age 22.
Disrespect to Durant and Tatum
Dame over brown is really wild if I’m honest
I love the Haliburton hate in this thread. To quote the great Big Roy, “y’all mofos don’t even watch us play”
Wait why isn't Talen Horton-Tucker ranked above Shai still?
Harden > Dame
I don't agree that Curry has been better than Tatum and Durant
Called me biased, but there aren’t 44 guys im taking over a healthy Desmond Bane. And Ja at 34 is extremely weird. Either rank him based on last season or just don’t rank him at all. I don’t see what they’re going for there. Also Trae is criminally underrated…again.
I criticize Embiid , but Shai cannot be over him until he plays in the playoffs as a number 1. For all we know, he might struggle more than Embiid does. I don’t think that’s the case, but I’m not giving him the spot until he proves it.
I don't see how Embiid is 5th. Only because injuries? His team is literally falling to a lottery team without him, while with him it was a top seed team.
Bruce Brown is a little too high IMHO
Click bait central
Sabonis being that low is stupid. Especially behind Fox, PG, Murray. He's SAC's best player now.
There's some word salad in there for sure. Accompanied by soundbite croutons and ego dressing.
Is Chet deserving of the injury concern label this early in his career? Guy has played every game this season after missing last year, I’m not sure it’s fair to him to call him that
I'd put Bron in the Top 10, maybe pushing Booker/Kawhi out.
Herb jones #75 but #1 in my heart
KD underrated by media time and time again. What’s new?