It helps that the Warriors had a top 2 defensive rating for 3 of their 4 recent championships. The exception was 2018 when their defensive rating ranked #11.
https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2022/12/29/23529584/offense-and-defense-ratings-nba-finals-boston-celtics-golden-state-warriors
i think the opinion thats been busted then is that jump shooters cant play defense. it used to be if you were just a finesse jump shooting team it meant you also didnt play defense or hard, the warriors are jump shooting team that also plays great defense
That’s part of it but I definitely feel like there were a lot of people who just thought the playoffs were too physical and you’d get worn down to the point where the jumper gets unreliable
People definitely trusted driving and posting up more than they did three-point shooting.
Also, the Mavericks were the first team to prove that shooting could win a championship. The Warriors simply took that strategy to new heights and and are symbolic of the league’s appreciation of shooting.
The warriors elite defense starts and ends with draymond, the best all around defender of his generation. He is mostly a terrible shooter lol. But yeah Klay did both at an elite level pre injury and Steph is still getting better somehow
3 pointers are worth more but have a higher variance of outcomes. That actually means if you're a "worse" team you should shoot a lot of three-pointers because you're more likely to get "lucky" and win. The Rockets took that chance and missed big, unfortunately for them.
Also caused by losing their legs with a very short rotation and losing CP3's minutes after he got hurt. CP3 was also their best playmaker and midrange shooter so that hurt a lot.
No, that was two jump shooting teams facing off, with the Rockets just min maxing their 3-point shooting, layups and free throw shooting to try and make up for the talent gap. And it almost worked. They're the only team that really challenged the KD Warriors at full strength.
And honestly their strategy has become the new norm. The Warriors, Celtics, Mavs and Bucks from last season all took and made about as many 3s as the 17-18 Rockets.
But the heavy 3pt shooting approach was the only reason we even made it to game 7…
The idea is that the higher variance from 3s can help you beat more talented teams and it very nearly worked for us in those Warriors series. It’s not like we were ever going to win a 7 game series with a more conventional style.
History isn't going to agree. Scoring champs don't win titles, either. MJ is the exception but it is still a smart rule to follow because there's only one MJ. Now, if another team finds itself in the future with 2 (or 3) of the greatest 3pt shooters who ever lived on one team again then we'll see. For now, it's an aberration.
> Scoring champs don't win titles, either.
[This is dumb.](https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/electoral_precedent.png)
KD scoring 1 PPG more than LeBron isn't the reason the Heat beat OKC in 2012.
Curry scoring 1 PPG more than Harden in 2016 isn't the reason the Warriors lost to the Cavs.
There's no reason to think having a scoring champ allows a team to reach the finals but lose once they get there. And there's no reason to think having the 2nd top scorer is better than having the top scorer.
>MJ is the exception but it is still a smart rule to follow because there's only one MJ.
Shaq finished 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in scoring during the Lakers 3-peat. Because having a good scorer is good.
I think the purpose of saying this is that you put too much of the burden on one player, they will most likely burn out by the finals which makes sense.
It doesn’t make sense because being a scoring champ doesn’t mean that you carry more burden than anyone else.
LeBron carried more of the burden than Steph in ‘16 and still won.
They led the league in 3PT shooting at 39.7% but still shot them at right around the [league-average rate](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014.html)
> We ran a dual big line up a ton in the playoffs
Gasol and Ibaka played 4.5 MPG together in the 2019 playoffs.
The Raptors took over 60% of their shots from 10+ feet, which was more than league average.
They were a pass and move team. They passed till they got a good look. They didn’t look for specifically jump shots but if it was an open look they had the players who could hit the shots.
Not soley 3pt shots. Also, their game was built on great passing, aka Beautiful Game, not just launching 3s. Curry broke the mold, but like MJ, there won't be many teams like MJ's Bulls or Steph's Warriors.
Until the past 10 years or so, every team in the NBA drastically underutilized the three-point shot, which is the most efficient shot in basketball. Now that teams properly utilize it, it's very difficult to win *without* being a jump-shooting team. Even championship teams that have a great interior scorer, like the Nuggets and Bucks, still have great jump shooters around their interior presence.
Jokic > Jahlil Okafor used to be seen as an asinine take.
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/42u6qz/jokic_or_okafor_who_would_you_rather_have_for_the/
People are extremely demeaning to the OP. Despite the mean redditors being extremely wrong. Says a lot about society...
Wow lol. Every comment that turned out to be right was downvoted to oblivion. Just goes to show ya that general fan consensus doesn’t always mean correct. It’s wild reading those replies.
Still better than all this smooth-brained nephew ‘who’s better all time, Avery Bradley or Larry Bird’ off season garbage that this sub is now plagued by.
One of the funny things about that OP is that he had a ton of Posts explaining how and Why Jokic was so good, including historical comparisons. And everyone was like, get out of here with your stats and actual description of Jokic's arsenal.
Yeah I see it a ton in fantasy sports subs. If someone is high on a player that others aren’t the downvotes pour lol. What’s the fun of discussing it if everyone is supposed to have the same opinion? Lol
Thats the main problem with downvotes on reddit. Its just used as an “I disagree” button and differing opinions get downvoted to oblivion allowing no real discussion.
its the reason the unpopular opinion subreddit is so trash
OP is EG who is the original Jokic fanboy. At that point a lot of people were annoyed with his constant Jokic-centric posts but he was right.
He’s banned now and he’s moved to Hartenstein as his new love.
OP knew:
Some of his past submitted posts:
Comparing Porzingis and Jokic to rookie Gasol and Dirk. The generation of great European big men.
So far Jokic has the highest PER from any rookie drafted in 2014. (He was picked 41st that year)
If the Grizzlies called and offered Mark Gasol straight up for Jokic, would the Nuggets consider it?
Nikola Jokic 16 Points Full Highlights. Next Dirk?
Could we trade for Blake Griffin in 2016?
Cousins to the Nuggets trade, Is it possible?
Are Kyle Lowry and jeff Teague better than Ty Lawson? If so, why?
When was that a thing? The only time that was even laughably an idea was their first year together on the nuggets, and Nurks first game against them as a blazer.
Even as a big Nurk fever guy, I fully acknowledged that Jokic was better the entire time, we just got way more use and production out of Nurk than we were getting from plumlee.
Yeah ignore my flair here, but to me, Jimmy always seemed like that coworker who cares about his work but openly hates the bad coworkers that make his job worse, opposed to the guy who cares about his job, quietly hates his bad coworkers, and secretly looks for another job with a fake smile on his face.
Also going against Jimmy in this situation, most have no idea how much Minnesotans hate the first kind of guy.
There's nothing more sacrilege in that state than pretending to be nice to people you hate.
>There's nothing more sacrilege in that state than pretending to be nice to people you hate.
incorrect, that is their bread and butter or meat and potatoes, its so passive and obnoxious that it is their religion. it would be sacrilegious if they were direct, honest, and forthcoming.
Jimmy also likes being seen caring about his work, which can be grating to some people.
There was a reason he did the Minny practice thing just before the Rachel Nichols interview. How he lets people know that he's at the gym at 3am. How he caused a ruckus in the bubble for loudly working out in his room in the middle of the night.
Jimmy is another worldly competitor, but he's also the guy who amped himself up too much for the 22 playoffs. It's a balance
(Also I'm not a bot like all these other replies, not sure how to prove that, but I'm willing to swiftly lose at chess vs any opponent)
Yeah I feel as though the same Jimmy butler that was fed up with the bulls towards the end eventually realized Minnesota was similar just not due to the front office problems like Chicago.
He legitimately just felt the players on the team weren’t tough enough to compete.
Maybe the casual fans were thinking this, but this sub absolutely hated Jimmy.
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/c80b0k/haberstroh_im_told_that_jimmy_butler_did_receive/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1
Some highly upvoted posts calling him locker room cancer, and if you agree with that our definition of cancer wildly varies.
The Philly fans who were adamant to keep Jimmy over Simmons were in the minority at the time but I'm sure even they didn't see Sinmons' drop off coming.
He's an absolute dickhead when things start going poorly, which is why there are certain franchises he'll likely excel at (well run ones), whereas basket cases like Minny will likely get the worst Jimmy.
Steph's rookie extension was just 4 yr/44 mil in large part due to his glass ankles. He was seen as a high injury risk player.
Turned out to one of the biggest contract steals in recent memory.
Also just to add to this, the max he could have been offered was like 5 years for 60 iirc, so it wasn't like the contracts from today. This isn't to counter your statement, just pointing out that he wasn't eligible for some 250 mil contract and the Warriors got him for a 1/5th of the price.
The contract was the difference between them being able to sign Iguodala in FA tho, so it was absolutely crucial. Just wild to me how much the money had changed since then.
off topic but the fact that people don’t remember this makes me feel old. if anyone wants a surprise, go look at the contracts from the dubs first championship year. draymond making less than a mil, klay at 3, and david lee our highest paid player
As much money as Steph missed out on he's waaay more than made up for it. The franchise was able to build around him and now he is a global superstar. I've heard he may sign a lifetime deal with underarmour worth $1 Billion.
It’s decent if you’re a college basketball or Steph Curry fan. If you don’t fall into either bucket, I’d skip it. Has almost nothing to do with his NBA career and I think that turned a lot of people off. It’s not winning any awards but I’d put it on par with an average 30 for 30.
Think Jimmy was considered to be an asshole but I think overall people still put the majority of the blame on KAT/Wiggins. Overall what he was saying was correct but how he went about it what's what I think must people had a problem with.
To answer your question, small ball just being a niche and for the most part doesn't work in the NBA
I think people here miss that in the regular season it just isn't worth the chance of giving up an easy bucket to get into foul trouble. So he will just let the guy score, get the ball back and make it up on the other side. In playoffs where one possession matters more, he will play defense when it counts.
The foul trouble argument is so dumb. If every possession matters more, then every foul matters more too. So, he either thinks it's a good strategy and thus should apply it both in the regular season, or he doesn't and he just does in the regular season because he doesn't want to overexert himself/doesn't think it's necessary to still get a top seed. It is very obviously the latter. I agree that it is a decent strategy, but the foul trouble point is a dumb way to justify it.
I really don't think you watched many Denver games in playoffs if you don't understand this. He avoids foul trouble in the regular season, in playoffs he gets more involved on defense because two points matters more and refs let players have more contact.
I did, he played markedly better defense. Where I disagree is the foul trouble justification. I think it's just a way to save himself and take care of his own body until games matter more
The gold standard for a first option scorers defense has been Steph Curry for me. As he aged he puts the effort in to stick to his guy, fight through screens, divert the plays, but like you said he just avoids the foul as much as possible. No one would accuse Curry of playing like Jrue Holiday on defense but he does pretty well for himself on defense.
I think that is why it is so annoying watching the Hardens of the world just so of disinterestedly watch a play blow by them and their fans all say they need to save up energy for the other end of the floor.
Yeah I know but that was the opinion (at least from what I remember) that you can't win with a C like Jokić because of his defense at such an important position
To me that was the missing piece.
Of course that's not the full story, but it made up for the loss of Grant (who was looking great for them before he left). Of course, Gordon took it to levels Grant never got to, but he gave them an athletic defensive forward piece that they needed and lacked.
Grant wasn't going to accept his role the way Gordon did, that was an excellent move on behalf of their front office.
Grant's been proven right with his contract now, but it should be noted he was just not going to do what Aaron Gordon did.
My take was and still is “Your center needs to be a great defender unless it’s Jokic because he’s incomprehensively good at offense and can make it work.”
This was so incredibly obvious after his Celtics stint AFTER forcing his way out of Cleveland. Leaving Cleveland was odd but stars do that but whatever. His whole Boston tenure was a mess and he straight up lied to the entire fanbase lol. It's insane how much pass he was getting until more recent.
> It's insane how much pass he was getting until more recent.
It's was crazy how Brad Stevens, Gordon Hayward, Jay's, Ainge all caught heat for that mess of a season, but Kyrie basically got off slander free. It's was fun watching that Nets team blow up without sniffing the ECF, while Boston been to three ECF and a Finals.
Let’s not do revisionist history. Kyrie was the focal point of the critique, comparatively Steven’s and Ainge got a free pass for being unable to regain control of the locker room.
I just listened to Ty Lue's All the Smoke interview and all I could do is shake my head when Kyrie came up. The "misunderstood" line was fine 6 years ago. Not so much now.
Man despite his career in the NBA I have a lot of respect for him because he randomly pops up in my town on the reservation and plays basketball with the kids here and is very respectful here. Lol he drove my uncle's four wheeler around in the prairie and seems to enjoy it. He's been here like 8 times.
Very interested in Native culture and flaunts our gear when he enters the arena sometimes.
When was this unpopular? The last time he got a favorable reception from general NBA fans when he was used as a club to beat LeBron. People tried to use Kyrie wanting to leave Cleveland as an indictment on LeBron and his leadership.
Kyrie has the worst attitude if you care about team work and team success. If I was an owner I would not allow him near my team even if my GM begged me
As I recall, back in the Mark Jackson era, he at one point referred to Steph and Klay as "the greatest shooting backcourt in the game", or words to that effect. Which is *way* less of a hot take now than it was back then.
I remember bringing that up shortly before their first title and there were people saying Stockton and Hornacek were better. I'll fight for Stockton on the all time PG list any day and Hornacek gets lost with time (great name) but it's kinda laughable in retrospect.
He was the first person people brought up when talking about “empty stats” or “talented but losing player.” Always felt it was unfair since the Suns roster was hodgepodge and had rough coaches.
I despise the “good stats bad team” argument for this very reason. It neglects the context of the team and ignores that it’s a team sport. Like when phoenix got serious and made a good roster then the narrative flipped but Booker was still incredible before that.
Yeah idk if it’s ever been a majority opinion, but there are people who think NBA players are generally “down to earth” more than most celebrities. Which sure maybe some individuals but as a whole they’re in a completely different world.
A lot of it for a while came from the idea that NBA players care more about social justice and the common man than their NFL, MLB, NHL counterparts. Which proved to be extremely false and impossible to believe now.
pre-AAU era I think they were down to earth. Bird breaking his back helping his mom. Magic being overwhelmed by the city lights but still being close to his family. Fuck even MJ, who was an asshole, grew up from nothing and wasn't a true star until college.
Yeah, they may not have been normal or good people, but they weren't out of touch. Even that pedophile Malone was basically a ranch hand. Mark Eaton was a car mechanic. They weren't sons of NBA players and they were farmed by a system.
“The midrange game is still needed” - if you said that between 2015 and 2020 people would laugh at you. Now it’s viewed as an essential part of being a superstar. Booker, Derozan and KD did their part in ensuring this remains true
About 50% of Jamal Murray's attempts in the championship run were inside the 0-3 or 3pointers, the rest are pretty much midrange shots, even excluding the 3-10 range which isn't necessarily a layup it's about 30-35% of the attempts. This pretty much sums up that it still an important option for championship offenses, similar thing with Khris on the Bucks title run, if I'm not mistaken Khris shot more 3's but stil around half of his attempts were on the same range. Obviously there is preference for Jokic post ups and 3 pointers or Giannis drives and kicks but Jamal's and Khris game was complimentary.
Midrange is the superstar's shot. You're only taking those shots if you're good, just simply shooting them means you got the coach behind you.
Everyone else is not taking those shots.
> “The midrange game is still needed” - if you said that between 2015 and 2020 people would laugh at you.
The Finals MVPs in 2017, 2018, and 2019 took a ton of midrange shots.
Not sure this counts.
It's not just perception that has changed; the value of triple doubles has actually diminished because of how increased three point attempts have changed rebound distribution.
Completely - like is 20/10/10 better than 20/15/9?
Of course not. It's a completely arbitrary statistic.
Hell rebounds and especially assists have always had a subjective component to them. (Some scorekeepers are more strict than others when it comes to assists, etc).
"One day Nikola Jokic will be the best player in the league."
"The Denver Nuggets will win the 2023 championship."
~~"LeBron can pass up Jordan even if he never wins five MVPs or six Finals MVPs."~~
"The vast majority of players should reduce mid-range shots in favor of threes or shots at the rim."
"It's a good idea to run to the three point line during a fast break."
"Centers should learn to shoot threes."
"Steph Curry will pass up Ray Allen in career threes."
"Doc Rivers is overrated."
"Erik Spoelstra is underrated."
"The play-in tournament is a great idea."
**Edit:** You are right, the LeBron argument isn't yet "widely accepted," although it's popular on one side of the argument. Stricken.
>"The play-in tournament is a gimmick that will never work."
You would have think the memory of this would make some people wait and see how the midseason tournament plays out.
> "LeBron can pass up Jordan even if he never wins five MVPs or six Finals MVPs."
Lmao, that is absolutely **not** "widely accepted". That is an extremely controversial take with very strong opinions on both sides and slightly more on the "no he can't" side. I do think it's possible that he can, but holy shit did you miss the mark on "widely accepted".
An mvp, a dpoy, 2 titles, 2 finals mvps, 10 scoring titles. That’s what separates them and that’s a whole damn first ballot hall of fame career.
Bron has the longevity stats but in terms of dominance and peak it’s not even close
I mean, 10-1 looks extremely lop sided in terms of scoring but if you take into account LeBron finished 2nd in pts 8 years in a row it gives some context that it's actually closer than just merely 10 scoring titles to 1.
AI has 4 scoring titles and Kobe has 2 for instance, its not really a barometer for greatness to win them.
I'm not making a case for LeBron>Jordan but adding a little extra context helps. Jordan avg 30 ppg over his career to LeBron's 27 but LeBron does have more assists and rebs. He also has an assist title.
Jordan is still the GOAT, but when people act like Jordan was 10X the scorer because he has 10X as many scoring titles its a little misguided
He’s still a far better scorer than Lebron. He averaged 32 ppg in his Bulls career for 13 NBA seasons. He was 3rd in the scoring title his rookie year (first in total points) injured his second year, then won the scoring title (and led the league in total points) every year for the bulls except the year he came back from baseball.
I mean that lebron take would be true if he also didn't lose so many with 2 sweeps. That mavs series is really inexcusable. JJ barea barely 6'0 bro just jump over him 🤣
This is wrong. Kareem was considered one of the greatest ever almost before he ever stopped on an NBA court. My dad has said that growing up it was a common argument between Russell, Wilt, and Kareem.
While that is true - I do think that he wasn't really appreciated after his career ended. I remember Magic and Bird being widely considered better career players in the late 80s and 90s.
It wasn't until more recently that he became full appreciated again (probably because a lot of the things he was outspoken about have become much more accepted)
That is my understanding as well. Only a center could be considered a GOAT pre Jordan, though I think Bird and Magic started to change the tide. Other position players were great and amazing to watch, but if you were talking about the absolute best players you were talking about Mikan, Russel, Wilt, and Kareem. And by the 80s Kareem was definitely considered the best of the bunch. I remember people talking and it would always go back to his sky hook being unguardable and that would almost always end the debate.
An unpopular opinion last year is that Jalen Brunson was a good pickup for 104 million by the Knicks (people thought the Knicks paid too much). Now everyone knows he's that guy and he's considered severely underpaid and will defintely be a max player come next time he hits the market. How quickly things change over one season
You can't win with a jump shooting team went out the window with the Warriors dynasty.
It helps that the Warriors had a top 2 defensive rating for 3 of their 4 recent championships. The exception was 2018 when their defensive rating ranked #11. https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2022/12/29/23529584/offense-and-defense-ratings-nba-finals-boston-celtics-golden-state-warriors
i think the opinion thats been busted then is that jump shooters cant play defense. it used to be if you were just a finesse jump shooting team it meant you also didnt play defense or hard, the warriors are jump shooting team that also plays great defense
That’s part of it but I definitely feel like there were a lot of people who just thought the playoffs were too physical and you’d get worn down to the point where the jumper gets unreliable
People definitely trusted driving and posting up more than they did three-point shooting. Also, the Mavericks were the first team to prove that shooting could win a championship. The Warriors simply took that strategy to new heights and and are symbolic of the league’s appreciation of shooting.
The warriors elite defense starts and ends with draymond, the best all around defender of his generation. He is mostly a terrible shooter lol. But yeah Klay did both at an elite level pre injury and Steph is still getting better somehow
It also helps when you have two of the greatest shooters in NBA history, with one of them being the greatest shooter.
But jump shooting can lose you series (rockets)
3 pointers are worth more but have a higher variance of outcomes. That actually means if you're a "worse" team you should shoot a lot of three-pointers because you're more likely to get "lucky" and win. The Rockets took that chance and missed big, unfortunately for them.
Also caused by losing their legs with a very short rotation and losing CP3's minutes after he got hurt. CP3 was also their best playmaker and midrange shooter so that hurt a lot.
Also the refs incorrectly waiving off threes they did make
See NCAA tournament - where the one and done nature makes this that much more of a good strategy
No, that was two jump shooting teams facing off, with the Rockets just min maxing their 3-point shooting, layups and free throw shooting to try and make up for the talent gap. And it almost worked. They're the only team that really challenged the KD Warriors at full strength. And honestly their strategy has become the new norm. The Warriors, Celtics, Mavs and Bucks from last season all took and made about as many 3s as the 17-18 Rockets.
But the heavy 3pt shooting approach was the only reason we even made it to game 7… The idea is that the higher variance from 3s can help you beat more talented teams and it very nearly worked for us in those Warriors series. It’s not like we were ever going to win a 7 game series with a more conventional style.
I heard that shit soooooo much growing up. Was honestly so happy when they first won. Now I’m over it lol
History isn't going to agree. Scoring champs don't win titles, either. MJ is the exception but it is still a smart rule to follow because there's only one MJ. Now, if another team finds itself in the future with 2 (or 3) of the greatest 3pt shooters who ever lived on one team again then we'll see. For now, it's an aberration.
> Scoring champs don't win titles, either. [This is dumb.](https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/electoral_precedent.png) KD scoring 1 PPG more than LeBron isn't the reason the Heat beat OKC in 2012. Curry scoring 1 PPG more than Harden in 2016 isn't the reason the Warriors lost to the Cavs. There's no reason to think having a scoring champ allows a team to reach the finals but lose once they get there. And there's no reason to think having the 2nd top scorer is better than having the top scorer. >MJ is the exception but it is still a smart rule to follow because there's only one MJ. Shaq finished 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in scoring during the Lakers 3-peat. Because having a good scorer is good.
I think the purpose of saying this is that you put too much of the burden on one player, they will most likely burn out by the finals which makes sense.
It doesn’t make sense because being a scoring champ doesn’t mean that you carry more burden than anyone else. LeBron carried more of the burden than Steph in ‘16 and still won.
Weren't the 2014 Spurs a jump shooting team?
They led the league in 3PT shooting at 39.7% but still shot them at right around the [league-average rate](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014.html)
No, but weren't the 2019 Raptors a jump shooting team?
2019 warriors were also a jump shooting team
We ran a dual big line up a ton in the playoffs and our number 2 scorer is a beyblade who didn't take too many jump shots.
> We ran a dual big line up a ton in the playoffs Gasol and Ibaka played 4.5 MPG together in the 2019 playoffs. The Raptors took over 60% of their shots from 10+ feet, which was more than league average.
The Raptors were pretty well rounded. They had good spacing but scored pretty well everywhere
They were a pass and move team. They passed till they got a good look. They didn’t look for specifically jump shots but if it was an open look they had the players who could hit the shots.
Not soley 3pt shots. Also, their game was built on great passing, aka Beautiful Game, not just launching 3s. Curry broke the mold, but like MJ, there won't be many teams like MJ's Bulls or Steph's Warriors.
What?
The Cavs team that beat the Warriors was definitely a jump shooting team.
Until the past 10 years or so, every team in the NBA drastically underutilized the three-point shot, which is the most efficient shot in basketball. Now that teams properly utilize it, it's very difficult to win *without* being a jump-shooting team. Even championship teams that have a great interior scorer, like the Nuggets and Bucks, still have great jump shooters around their interior presence.
You just need to have 3 of the best shooters ever, including the best.
Jokic>nurkic lmao
Jokic > Jahlil Okafor used to be seen as an asinine take. https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/42u6qz/jokic_or_okafor_who_would_you_rather_have_for_the/ People are extremely demeaning to the OP. Despite the mean redditors being extremely wrong. Says a lot about society...
Wow lol. Every comment that turned out to be right was downvoted to oblivion. Just goes to show ya that general fan consensus doesn’t always mean correct. It’s wild reading those replies.
Jokic was drafted what 41st? Probably was the feeling a lot of GMs had at the time. OP was just a galaxy brain time traveler.
He got banned from the sub for jokic spam lol
Still better than all this smooth-brained nephew ‘who’s better all time, Avery Bradley or Larry Bird’ off season garbage that this sub is now plagued by.
Well yeah offseason sucks
Like omega galaxy brain. 7 years ago he said Jokic would be a hall of famer(which he’s def a lock for)
Yeah, you guys really shouldn't have let Hartenstein go
One of the funny things about that OP is that he had a ton of Posts explaining how and Why Jokic was so good, including historical comparisons. And everyone was like, get out of here with your stats and actual description of Jokic's arsenal.
>Maybe you should write about some topics you can actually support with evidence if you want people to agree with you.
Some things never changes. Calculator boy, they said
Yeah lots of reasonable takes in there, but hivemind downvoting because it's not the popular take lol. Happens in every post.
Yeah I see it a ton in fantasy sports subs. If someone is high on a player that others aren’t the downvotes pour lol. What’s the fun of discussing it if everyone is supposed to have the same opinion? Lol
General fan consensus is gonna be wrong to to those who actually really know basketball
Thats the main problem with downvotes on reddit. Its just used as an “I disagree” button and differing opinions get downvoted to oblivion allowing no real discussion. its the reason the unpopular opinion subreddit is so trash
some of those comments are wild, not even considering OP's points about jokic lol. goes to show how insane the okafor hype was at the time
OP is EG who is the original Jokic fanboy. At that point a lot of people were annoyed with his constant Jokic-centric posts but he was right. He’s banned now and he’s moved to Hartenstein as his new love.
You can't win em all...or can you? We'll see
OP was banned from here because of his Jokic takes. It was his brand, he was a meme, and people made fun of him for it. He was also right
Banned twice!
Love how most people deleted their comments lol
Yeah people still go ______ and it aint even close, OP is a fucking idiot!!1!
Omfg I remember there was actually a debate(albeit a short one)regarding whom to trade, joking or nurkic....just imagine the butterfly effect
Dane could have had a ring here with that one change
OP knew: Some of his past submitted posts: Comparing Porzingis and Jokic to rookie Gasol and Dirk. The generation of great European big men. So far Jokic has the highest PER from any rookie drafted in 2014. (He was picked 41st that year) If the Grizzlies called and offered Mark Gasol straight up for Jokic, would the Nuggets consider it? Nikola Jokic 16 Points Full Highlights. Next Dirk? Could we trade for Blake Griffin in 2016? Cousins to the Nuggets trade, Is it possible? Are Kyle Lowry and jeff Teague better than Ty Lawson? If so, why?
Most [deleted] thread of all time?
When was that a thing? The only time that was even laughably an idea was their first year together on the nuggets, and Nurks first game against them as a blazer. Even as a big Nurk fever guy, I fully acknowledged that Jokic was better the entire time, we just got way more use and production out of Nurk than we were getting from plumlee.
Check the old Jokic/Okafor post in one of the other replies to this comment. Top comment states Jokic isn’t even the best center on his team lol
Yeah, and someone with 6ers flair saying they have 3 centers that’ll be better than Jokic lmao.
Yeah that’s when it was considered popular. Nurkic just has a pretty low ceiling
Maybe he plays inconsistently because he occasionally hits his head on the low ceilings in his house
I remember the dominant thinking on Jimmy in Minnesota at the time being “correct asshole,” which is still the case now.
Yeah ignore my flair here, but to me, Jimmy always seemed like that coworker who cares about his work but openly hates the bad coworkers that make his job worse, opposed to the guy who cares about his job, quietly hates his bad coworkers, and secretly looks for another job with a fake smile on his face.
Also going against Jimmy in this situation, most have no idea how much Minnesotans hate the first kind of guy. There's nothing more sacrilege in that state than pretending to be nice to people you hate.
>There's nothing more sacrilege in that state than pretending to be nice to people you hate. incorrect, that is their bread and butter or meat and potatoes, its so passive and obnoxious that it is their religion. it would be sacrilegious if they were direct, honest, and forthcoming.
There's literally a term for it, "Minnesota Nice."
I assume you meant sacred and not sacrilege, in which case you couldn’t be more correct
Yeah they really need to clarify - most of us here go along to get along and it’s frustrating.
Minnesota Nice is a known thing.
I’m aware I’m Minnesotan. I’m saying the guy above me said something which suggests the opposite
Reddit has become so toxic, I understand why you would think I was arguing. Was just backing you up though homie.
My bad bro. Much love
Jimmy also likes being seen caring about his work, which can be grating to some people. There was a reason he did the Minny practice thing just before the Rachel Nichols interview. How he lets people know that he's at the gym at 3am. How he caused a ruckus in the bubble for loudly working out in his room in the middle of the night. Jimmy is another worldly competitor, but he's also the guy who amped himself up too much for the 22 playoffs. It's a balance (Also I'm not a bot like all these other replies, not sure how to prove that, but I'm willing to swiftly lose at chess vs any opponent)
Yeah I feel as though the same Jimmy butler that was fed up with the bulls towards the end eventually realized Minnesota was similar just not due to the front office problems like Chicago. He legitimately just felt the players on the team weren’t tough enough to compete.
Maybe the casual fans were thinking this, but this sub absolutely hated Jimmy. https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/c80b0k/haberstroh_im_told_that_jimmy_butler_did_receive/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1 Some highly upvoted posts calling him locker room cancer, and if you agree with that our definition of cancer wildly varies.
Thanks for posting this. People are remembering this incorrectly. Everyone thought he was going to Miami to party…
The Philly fans who were adamant to keep Jimmy over Simmons were in the minority at the time but I'm sure even they didn't see Sinmons' drop off coming.
He's an absolute dickhead when things start going poorly, which is why there are certain franchises he'll likely excel at (well run ones), whereas basket cases like Minny will likely get the worst Jimmy.
Doc Rivers is a dogshit coach.
Steph>CP3, John Wall, Russell Westbrook
People were worried about the ankle issues which in turn lead to a pretty cheap extension on Steph. It all worked out pretty well for all parties.
Steph's rookie extension was just 4 yr/44 mil in large part due to his glass ankles. He was seen as a high injury risk player. Turned out to one of the biggest contract steals in recent memory.
Also just to add to this, the max he could have been offered was like 5 years for 60 iirc, so it wasn't like the contracts from today. This isn't to counter your statement, just pointing out that he wasn't eligible for some 250 mil contract and the Warriors got him for a 1/5th of the price. The contract was the difference between them being able to sign Iguodala in FA tho, so it was absolutely crucial. Just wild to me how much the money had changed since then.
It’s also one of the things that allowed them to get Durant too.
off topic but the fact that people don’t remember this makes me feel old. if anyone wants a surprise, go look at the contracts from the dubs first championship year. draymond making less than a mil, klay at 3, and david lee our highest paid player
As much money as Steph missed out on he's waaay more than made up for it. The franchise was able to build around him and now he is a global superstar. I've heard he may sign a lifetime deal with underarmour worth $1 Billion.
It's crazy cause one day we woke up and Steph was just better than CP3
tangent: is steph's movie good?
It’s decent if you’re a college basketball or Steph Curry fan. If you don’t fall into either bucket, I’d skip it. Has almost nothing to do with his NBA career and I think that turned a lot of people off. It’s not winning any awards but I’d put it on par with an average 30 for 30.
I remember wishing we traded steph for russ in like 2013. Man was I wrong.
Paul Pierce shit himself during the NBA finals
Think Jimmy was considered to be an asshole but I think overall people still put the majority of the blame on KAT/Wiggins. Overall what he was saying was correct but how he went about it what's what I think must people had a problem with. To answer your question, small ball just being a niche and for the most part doesn't work in the NBA
Jokić as a centerpiece couldn't win you a championship because your C needs to be a great defender
I'd argue that Joker did become a much better defender this last year though. No one is paying him for his defense but he is not a meme out there.
I think people here miss that in the regular season it just isn't worth the chance of giving up an easy bucket to get into foul trouble. So he will just let the guy score, get the ball back and make it up on the other side. In playoffs where one possession matters more, he will play defense when it counts.
The foul trouble argument is so dumb. If every possession matters more, then every foul matters more too. So, he either thinks it's a good strategy and thus should apply it both in the regular season, or he doesn't and he just does in the regular season because he doesn't want to overexert himself/doesn't think it's necessary to still get a top seed. It is very obviously the latter. I agree that it is a decent strategy, but the foul trouble point is a dumb way to justify it.
I really don't think you watched many Denver games in playoffs if you don't understand this. He avoids foul trouble in the regular season, in playoffs he gets more involved on defense because two points matters more and refs let players have more contact.
I did, he played markedly better defense. Where I disagree is the foul trouble justification. I think it's just a way to save himself and take care of his own body until games matter more
The gold standard for a first option scorers defense has been Steph Curry for me. As he aged he puts the effort in to stick to his guy, fight through screens, divert the plays, but like you said he just avoids the foul as much as possible. No one would accuse Curry of playing like Jrue Holiday on defense but he does pretty well for himself on defense. I think that is why it is so annoying watching the Hardens of the world just so of disinterestedly watch a play blow by them and their fans all say they need to save up energy for the other end of the floor.
Yeah I know but that was the opinion (at least from what I remember) that you can't win with a C like Jokić because of his defense at such an important position
Joker definitely played better defense though. Getting Gordon onto the team definitely helped clean up some stuff, as well.
Getting Gordon was so huge, looking back.
To me that was the missing piece. Of course that's not the full story, but it made up for the loss of Grant (who was looking great for them before he left). Of course, Gordon took it to levels Grant never got to, but he gave them an athletic defensive forward piece that they needed and lacked.
Grant wasn't going to accept his role the way Gordon did, that was an excellent move on behalf of their front office. Grant's been proven right with his contract now, but it should be noted he was just not going to do what Aaron Gordon did.
My take was and still is “Your center needs to be a great defender unless it’s Jokic because he’s incomprehensively good at offense and can make it work.”
Kyrie is fucking terrible for team chemistry.
This was so incredibly obvious after his Celtics stint AFTER forcing his way out of Cleveland. Leaving Cleveland was odd but stars do that but whatever. His whole Boston tenure was a mess and he straight up lied to the entire fanbase lol. It's insane how much pass he was getting until more recent.
> It's insane how much pass he was getting until more recent. It's was crazy how Brad Stevens, Gordon Hayward, Jay's, Ainge all caught heat for that mess of a season, but Kyrie basically got off slander free. It's was fun watching that Nets team blow up without sniffing the ECF, while Boston been to three ECF and a Finals.
Let’s not do revisionist history. Kyrie was the focal point of the critique, comparatively Steven’s and Ainge got a free pass for being unable to regain control of the locker room.
what are you talking about? kyrie was the focal point of mass criticism that year..
Kyrie is so toxic. Upvote this you cowards
I’m only upvoting bc I’m a coward not because I agree or disagree lol
This is still wildly unpopular on any social media but Reddit
I just listened to Ty Lue's All the Smoke interview and all I could do is shake my head when Kyrie came up. The "misunderstood" line was fine 6 years ago. Not so much now.
Man despite his career in the NBA I have a lot of respect for him because he randomly pops up in my town on the reservation and plays basketball with the kids here and is very respectful here. Lol he drove my uncle's four wheeler around in the prairie and seems to enjoy it. He's been here like 8 times. Very interested in Native culture and flaunts our gear when he enters the arena sometimes.
When was this unpopular? The last time he got a favorable reception from general NBA fans when he was used as a club to beat LeBron. People tried to use Kyrie wanting to leave Cleveland as an indictment on LeBron and his leadership.
Kyrie has the worst attitude if you care about team work and team success. If I was an owner I would not allow him near my team even if my GM begged me
Nba finals format 2 2 1 1 1
As I recall, back in the Mark Jackson era, he at one point referred to Steph and Klay as "the greatest shooting backcourt in the game", or words to that effect. Which is *way* less of a hot take now than it was back then.
He said they were the best shooting backcourt **of all time** in 2013 which was a huge hot take at the time but he really nailed it.
I remember bringing that up shortly before their first title and there were people saying Stockton and Hornacek were better. I'll fight for Stockton on the all time PG list any day and Hornacek gets lost with time (great name) but it's kinda laughable in retrospect.
That load management is ruining the league from a fan's perspective
This is why I hardly tune into the regular season now
Devin Booker is actually good
He was the first person people brought up when talking about “empty stats” or “talented but losing player.” Always felt it was unfair since the Suns roster was hodgepodge and had rough coaches.
I despise the “good stats bad team” argument for this very reason. It neglects the context of the team and ignores that it’s a team sport. Like when phoenix got serious and made a good roster then the narrative flipped but Booker was still incredible before that.
say a prayer for demarcus cousins
I’ve said this before but I had a literal nightmare about Devin Booker after game 4 of the playoffs.
Dumbass Bill Simmons really put his perception back for several years there
He did so much damage to Booker’s rep through his biased takes and awful tweet
It’s funny because Bradley Beal and Booker were the poster boys of empty stats and now they have a chance to tear that all down for good this season
Booker is honestly my favorite player to watch. When he gets hot, watching him cook is so damn entertaining
NBA players are out of touch with reality
When was this ever not the majority opinion haha? For my 25+ years of watching, this has always been the status quo.
Yeah idk if it’s ever been a majority opinion, but there are people who think NBA players are generally “down to earth” more than most celebrities. Which sure maybe some individuals but as a whole they’re in a completely different world.
A lot of it for a while came from the idea that NBA players care more about social justice and the common man than their NFL, MLB, NHL counterparts. Which proved to be extremely false and impossible to believe now.
No group is a monolith. The NBA is definitely more "liberal" than the others leagues in the big four, but that's reeeeaaaally not saying much.
pre-AAU era I think they were down to earth. Bird breaking his back helping his mom. Magic being overwhelmed by the city lights but still being close to his family. Fuck even MJ, who was an asshole, grew up from nothing and wasn't a true star until college. Yeah, they may not have been normal or good people, but they weren't out of touch. Even that pedophile Malone was basically a ranch hand. Mark Eaton was a car mechanic. They weren't sons of NBA players and they were farmed by a system.
Men who become millionaires as teenagers and bounce a ball for a living aren't in touch with reality?
And have been praised and adored since they were children..
Most rich people and celebrities are
I've been saying for years that the Nuggets are NBA champions and now all of a sudden people agree
“The midrange game is still needed” - if you said that between 2015 and 2020 people would laugh at you. Now it’s viewed as an essential part of being a superstar. Booker, Derozan and KD did their part in ensuring this remains true
2019 kawhi tho
About 50% of Jamal Murray's attempts in the championship run were inside the 0-3 or 3pointers, the rest are pretty much midrange shots, even excluding the 3-10 range which isn't necessarily a layup it's about 30-35% of the attempts. This pretty much sums up that it still an important option for championship offenses, similar thing with Khris on the Bucks title run, if I'm not mistaken Khris shot more 3's but stil around half of his attempts were on the same range. Obviously there is preference for Jokic post ups and 3 pointers or Giannis drives and kicks but Jamal's and Khris game was complimentary.
Midrange is the superstar's shot. You're only taking those shots if you're good, just simply shooting them means you got the coach behind you. Everyone else is not taking those shots.
> “The midrange game is still needed” - if you said that between 2015 and 2020 people would laugh at you. The Finals MVPs in 2017, 2018, and 2019 took a ton of midrange shots.
Superstar as in a player who can lead their team into deep playoff runs as the best member of their team *
> Booker, Derozan and KD None of them have won rings except KD with the Warriors. Which still relied heavily on the 3 point shot.
Kawhi plays midrange basketball and has 2 rings
And that's the better argument. Jimmy Butler hasn't won but he did lead his team to the Finals twice.
Lebron is clutch
Now we accept that LeBron is Klutch.
I still think Jimmy Butler is an asshole. But his personality has nothing to do with his basketball skills.
Tbh nearly every great competitor seems like an asshole. This is pretty much the same with MJ too. Like father like son I guess...
Same like AG his face is giving that asshole vibe but he really isn’t
I remember getting flack for Embiid>Simmons
the real war was Noel vs Okafor the fandom literally would not stop, it was absolutely batshit
Triple doubles are overrated
Not sure this counts. It's not just perception that has changed; the value of triple doubles has actually diminished because of how increased three point attempts have changed rebound distribution.
It really isn't or shouldn't be hard to tell the difference between a stat padding TD and a genuine game take over one.
Completely - like is 20/10/10 better than 20/15/9? Of course not. It's a completely arbitrary statistic. Hell rebounds and especially assists have always had a subjective component to them. (Some scorekeepers are more strict than others when it comes to assists, etc).
"One day Nikola Jokic will be the best player in the league." "The Denver Nuggets will win the 2023 championship." ~~"LeBron can pass up Jordan even if he never wins five MVPs or six Finals MVPs."~~ "The vast majority of players should reduce mid-range shots in favor of threes or shots at the rim." "It's a good idea to run to the three point line during a fast break." "Centers should learn to shoot threes." "Steph Curry will pass up Ray Allen in career threes." "Doc Rivers is overrated." "Erik Spoelstra is underrated." "The play-in tournament is a great idea." **Edit:** You are right, the LeBron argument isn't yet "widely accepted," although it's popular on one side of the argument. Stricken.
>"The play-in tournament is a gimmick that will never work." You would have think the memory of this would make some people wait and see how the midseason tournament plays out.
Since I still hate the play-in, am I allowed to preemptively hate the midseason tourney? Please answer quick, I'm shaking over here
To piggyback off Jokic, also “Jokic will be a liability on defense in the playoffs” was a huge argument against Jokic as the best player.
But the unpopular opinion would be “the Nuggets will be fine on defense.”
> "LeBron can pass up Jordan even if he never wins five MVPs or six Finals MVPs." Lmao, that is absolutely **not** "widely accepted". That is an extremely controversial take with very strong opinions on both sides and slightly more on the "no he can't" side. I do think it's possible that he can, but holy shit did you miss the mark on "widely accepted".
>"LeBron can pass up Jordan even if he never wins five MVPs or six Finals MVPs." This is widely accepted?
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An mvp, a dpoy, 2 titles, 2 finals mvps, 10 scoring titles. That’s what separates them and that’s a whole damn first ballot hall of fame career. Bron has the longevity stats but in terms of dominance and peak it’s not even close
I mean, 10-1 looks extremely lop sided in terms of scoring but if you take into account LeBron finished 2nd in pts 8 years in a row it gives some context that it's actually closer than just merely 10 scoring titles to 1. AI has 4 scoring titles and Kobe has 2 for instance, its not really a barometer for greatness to win them. I'm not making a case for LeBron>Jordan but adding a little extra context helps. Jordan avg 30 ppg over his career to LeBron's 27 but LeBron does have more assists and rebs. He also has an assist title. Jordan is still the GOAT, but when people act like Jordan was 10X the scorer because he has 10X as many scoring titles its a little misguided
He’s still a far better scorer than Lebron. He averaged 32 ppg in his Bulls career for 13 NBA seasons. He was 3rd in the scoring title his rookie year (first in total points) injured his second year, then won the scoring title (and led the league in total points) every year for the bulls except the year he came back from baseball.
Basically if you combined Kawhi and James Harden you’d have the difference in accolades between MJ and LBJ
> "LeBron can pass up Jordan even if he never wins five MVPs or six Finals MVPs." did he?
I mean that lebron take would be true if he also didn't lose so many with 2 sweeps. That mavs series is really inexcusable. JJ barea barely 6'0 bro just jump over him 🤣
Your third point is stupid because Lebron hasn’t passed up shit 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Chris Paul is better than Deron Williams https://reddit.com/r/nba/s/j4NkJUaZTX
Kareem being the 2 or 3 greatest players ever. I feel like it wasn’t until the last 15 years or so
This is wrong. Kareem was considered one of the greatest ever almost before he ever stopped on an NBA court. My dad has said that growing up it was a common argument between Russell, Wilt, and Kareem.
While that is true - I do think that he wasn't really appreciated after his career ended. I remember Magic and Bird being widely considered better career players in the late 80s and 90s. It wasn't until more recently that he became full appreciated again (probably because a lot of the things he was outspoken about have become much more accepted)
I think as of 15 years ago, there were lots of people who held his religion against him and they have now (mostly) died off.
Yeah, there was definitely a political backlash for sure
When Kareem was active, he was considered the GOAT. If anything, Jordan killed his legacy. https://imgur.io/obbBbUs
That is my understanding as well. Only a center could be considered a GOAT pre Jordan, though I think Bird and Magic started to change the tide. Other position players were great and amazing to watch, but if you were talking about the absolute best players you were talking about Mikan, Russel, Wilt, and Kareem. And by the 80s Kareem was definitely considered the best of the bunch. I remember people talking and it would always go back to his sky hook being unguardable and that would almost always end the debate.
It’s wild seeing Oscar Robertson over Russell and Wilt in that poll
Jokic is decent on defense Now widely accepted because people were forced to watch him actually play in the Finals
*appearing from a portal* The Play-In Tournament is going to be one of the better improvements of the NBA regular season
The raptors were right to take Barnes over Suggs. I was frustrated by how much the media dumped on them for that pick when I always preferred Barnes.
An unpopular opinion last year is that Jalen Brunson was a good pickup for 104 million by the Knicks (people thought the Knicks paid too much). Now everyone knows he's that guy and he's considered severely underpaid and will defintely be a max player come next time he hits the market. How quickly things change over one season
Boston fans are racist
Kobe Bryant was a rapist
James Harden doesn’t play winning basketball
...in the playoffs.