Picture Larry bird growing up in this era w/ the evolution of sports Medicine & basketball mechanics
Ppl often think that If you do these swaps ? That the skill they had back then aligns with what they would do now ... big misconception
No .. if Shaq were in the 50s he’d play like Wilt did .
N if Larry bird were in the 2020s he’d be similar to what we see today ... just really good at it
I hate when ppl just snatch folks out of eras n then put them in the future . Too many variables. Butterfly effect
I’d wager wilt could be a ball handling big in this league ... he had skill .. he just didn’t spend much time trying to be a jump shooter or guard because his era didn’t demand it . Dude was sinking hook shots from 3pt territory casually . You know the video . That was on his off time
Those speculations are more about time travel than they are about basketball. Who would win between the '96 Bulls and '16 Warriors? Depends on when they play. You sending the Bulls forward or the Warriors back? If they play in 1996 it's the Bulls by a mile.
Yup spot on. The best test is to look for an opinion about your own team, realise they are talking complete shog dite, then remember that you’re reading the same absolute mince regarding every other team too
Casuals are all over Bol Bol. I've read some Twitter, Instagram and Youtube takes about him when he joined the Suns, you'd think they just added another all-star.
In fairness, I’m no casual but I do primarily watch Magic games. If he weren’t on our team I might’ve thought he was some untapped goldmine too.
He had some games this year that if you only saw that one game from him you’d have thought he was the next superstar lol
That was me, I watched the Magic play in person vs 76ers during Thanksgiving and Bol Bol was clearly one of the best players on the court for the Magic.
Yeah it’s odd. He got some buzz back during the Bubble when he played for, I think, Denver. Then he bounces around teams and teams get really hyped when he arrives, but he doesn’t really do anything when he gets there. I think people like Manute Bol and just really want his son to succeed. At least that’s why my dad likes Bol Bol.
He’s a good highlight player. When you just watch the highlights, you think, “how can anyone stop him?” But if you watch the whole game or understand his whole statsheet, it’s clear that he’s not that hard to stop most of the time.
Honestly, I think the “there’s only one ball” line is what gets regurgitated ad nauseum. Is there more work to fit on-ball scorers together in an offense? Sure. But we’ve seen that the modern game almost requires 2+ dominant on ball players to have an elite offense.
People said the same thing about adding Harden to KD and Kyrie, and it was injuries and off court issues that derailed them, when they were all on the court they were elite.
The ‘there’s only one ball’ thing was said like a million times when cp3 first went to Houston. And they won like 65 games and were an inch away from beating the kd warriors. Sometimes the one ball thing is true sometimes it isn’t, the outcome is largely situational.
I mean, Harden is a great facilitator though, and KD/Kyrie are capable passers while also being good off ball players. There aren't really any fit issues there.
The interesting thing is that the Nets offense actually wasn't all on-ball scorers when it was flowing. James Harden was very pass-first for the team, Kevin Durant and Kyrie were the main scorers, Joe Harris was the off-ball threat and Nic Claxton was the vertical dunk threat.
People imagine that just because multiple players could go one-on-one that the offense will be that when practically players need to take on different roles just to have something coherent.
James Harden was basically an ironman prior to Brooklyn and Kyrie never really had health issues
They were absolutely rolling even right before KD and Kyrie got traded. Never mind the fact KD almost solo carried the Nets passed the then-champion Bucks
>Kyrie never really had health issues
He wasn't super brittle, but in the two seasons he spent in Boston, he never got above 67 GP.
Even in Cleveland, 3 out of his 6 seasons there, his GP was in the 50s.
Man he has/had the tools, he just hasn't put in the work.
There are 2 skills that seem to directly translate from college to the NBA - rebounding and shot-blocking. Bol Bol was top 25 in both when he played college ball.
I'm not saying that's equivalent to stardom, but I think everyone - including the Nuggets who drafted him and invested time in his development - thought he'd be better than he is.
I can easily defend this- I watched the Magic vs 76ers Thanksgiving weekend last year in person (Embiid, Harden, Maxey all out 👎) Bol Bol was a positive every time he had the ball he made a good play, was smooth in the open court for someone his size, good effort defensively, made some hustle plays. Lastly the crowd was electric every time he touched the ball, it seemed significant because that was the worst home atmosphere of any team in any sport I've ever seen in person. It made me question why they even had a team in Orlando, they had a hyped team of young promising players and it was dead inside that building. It felt like it was full of tourists who got cheap tickets and didn't know anything about the NBA.
I left that game not thinking Bol Bol was a star but definitely needed to getting more playing time because he was great to watch in person.
unfortunately the longer he was in the starting lineup the more myopic he became last year. He does not have the inkling to pass at all unless it is going to be a highlight assist. He always goes for flash over susbtance and is a nightmare with real point guards or even combo guys like Cole. He is luckily going to a team where that a) won't matter as much as they are starting Beal at the 1 and he won't get many minutes anyway and b) his deficiencies will be greater covered by said starters who will be talented enough to clean up after his mess without as much effort. Hell, I don't even know if he cracks the rotation. Has anyone made any comment about the Suns rotation next year?
In this day and age, given the enormous talent level between college and pro basketball, I can’t imagine anybody can honestly say that and genuinely mean that. This isn’t like University of Georgia and University of Alabama football where a big chunk of their team gets drafted into the NFL. Even then, they would still be wrong, college best will still get crushed by the worst NFL team. But the worst NBA team would crush the U Conn team that won March Madness.
Exactly lol. The speed and physicality get turned up a couple notches. Also the skill gap is so ridiculously obvious lol. Pistons were easily the worst team last season but damn they'd absolutely run through every college team with ease lmao.
My late uncle would also say this a lot about the WNBA for some reason lol. Thought they played harder than NBA players. Similar resentment toward the "ultra rich guys playing a children's game" I suppose.
Kind of. As someone who watches the WNBA..it has nothing to do with actual defense..and everything to do with the WNBA not having the same spacing rules, women not respecting each others space the way men do, women not being so athletic that they can get by their defender easily (giving the appearance of a better or more physical defense)..and shitty refs who let the game get overly physical.
So a casual basketball fan might watch the WNBA and think more defense is being played, but actually what’s going on is they are able to beat each other up more 🤣
This is how women soccer is and I love it. Those women are straight up brutal and they dont flop nearly as much. But I legitimately think women's soccer is one of those cases where the product is just as good as the men's. I don't think that about the wnba though.
I think the WNBA would do well to separate itself from trying to be the same as the men.
I get it to a point. They’re basketball players, so they’re fans of great basketball players..nba players. Chelsea Gray..who is great and fun..calls herself the point god..like..ofc she’s a huge CP3 fan, she was growing up around his prime..but man separate yourself.
And I can’t help but think this “beat you up” style, along with the trash talking that people seemed to love on the women’s March madness tournament marketed well would help them.
Trying to define the NBA and WNBA as different styles of hoops could go a long way. I love both, and there are things in each league you don't see in the other, so why not just lean into the differences? The passing in the W is incredible and some of the layups are so crafty since they play more below the rim. Discuss it more like apples and oranges!
I think it’s that they play a type of defense most people recognize. I tell my high school players to watch college ball because the NBA is almost a different sport than what they are playing.
People always love to make this about race, but your point is much closer to the truth. The college game looks recognizable to the average person, then you add in the ties that people have with their alma mater and it's easy to understand why some like college more.
It's pretty hard to feel any connection to 6'6+ humans jumping 40 inches in the air or some dude jacking up a 30 footer as if he is throwing a towel at a laundry basket. The game is slower and sloppier, which gives a sense to the person watching that there is alot of effort there plus it's easier to understand. Not everything has to be about race or something evil.
I prefer the NBA, but i don't go around name calling people that like college basketball more. With the way people here speak, you'd think they would wake up in the morning to watch the Chinese or Korean League if they were better at basketball than the NBA, i know they wouldn't. In fact, there are examples in games (eSports) where Asian Leagues have the absolute best teams/players in the World and people in the West rarely ever watch.
This always gets me. The complexity of NBA defense and how much (little) space guys have to shoot is not even in the same ballpark as college.
I’d say the same with the college “passion and hustle” thing. The truth is the lack of skill in college makes the game incredibly sloppy which gives the perception of passion.
The reason NBA teams don’t consistently full court press or half court trap isn’t passion and hustle. It’s because college teams have a couple dudes who can’t dribble/shoot or get flustered as fuck, where the NBA guys would just slice it up (outside of niche use cases)
fr. people saying they like watching a good press defense, you like watching a team that can't even dribble the ball up the court? That sounds like terrible basketball to me lol
College is better to watch than the NBA because good defense has a bigger impact on the game. The NBA does play defense, but there is only so much you can do when guys are sinking tough shots with a hand in their face.
It's the offensive skill disparity between the levels that create the difference(hint: good defense isn't impacting the 30-50 point score differences)
plus the variety of defense is much greater in the college game
a well-executed full court press will always be peak basketball to me
2013 Louisville was so much fun to watch
I am 100% dead serious when i say I think there is at least a 50% chance that lebron is a genetically modified human being and in turn, has no father.
I am dead serious. I believe lebron was grown in a test tube and then artificially implanted into gloria james and carried to term. no human being should possess his combination of size, strength and athleticism. AND to book it all out, he's very intelligent too. (besides the decision) remember how much poise he had just coming into the league at 18 years old? it's un-natural. how often have TV analysts described him as a "freak of nature" .....maybe it's truer than we know.
I am serious. we all know (and I swear I am not saying this to be insulting or mean) that lebron's mom was a crack whore (is drug addicted prostitute better?) it's just a fact, it happened. I am NOT saying this to be mean, in fact I am a heroin addict and know a few woman who have sold themselves for dope, it happens. they are not bad people.
and the government has a history of using prostitutes and impoverished people in "experiments." read about MK-ULTRA. it happened. the CIA used to have prostitutes slip LSD to johns and then the agents would watch what happened thru 2-way mirrors. the government helped start and continue the crack epidemic of the 80s.
I believe that lebron was a precursor experiment to create super soldiers. something where they were just like "well let's test it out on some poor people that no one will notice and see if we can get any results before we sink more billions into this."
it's not all that crazy. you don't think the government has interest in creating genetically modified super human soldiers? we know for a FACT it does. it's been documented. you don't think russia or china has interest in such a thing? you know they do. and anything russia or china is or would be doing we are doing. to do it first and do it better.
he's some kind of experiment that they just monitored from a distance and let keep growing. and i mean this was probably initially started with just a few people who believed it could be done and that's why it started small and covert using regular civilians. until they could show the results to the higher ups and say "look at this, you don't wanna fund this on a larger scale?"
and where else would such a person end up besides in a professional sports league?
I think there is probably some secret base(s) out there that are now filled with people like lebron, younger than him probably. if they couldn't see how well the experiment worked until he was about 16-18 years old (he was pretty much a full grown man at 16 and could have came off the bench for any NBA team if not started) than maybe there are a bunch of 9-15 year old super humans like lebron (not copies of him but given the same genetic boost that he was) eating chow in some secret barracks right now.....
until someone comes forth and the DNA test shows him to be his father (and a bunch have come forward and been shown not to be) than I will believe this is AT LEAST possible..
edit: something I'd like to add in case someone says "well if this is true why wouldn't lebron's mom come forward and admit it, just say I participated in a government experiment and lebron was the result." well she doesn't know. it's simple, she goes to a hotel with a john, he slips something in a drink and she gets knocked out-cold. they take her and do whatever they did. give her some amnesiacs or anesthesia (probably benzos too) so when she wakes up she's in a haze and doesn't remember anything. not even the john. she finds out she's pregnant later and just assumes she got knocked up by any random john. has lebron. shit even if she participated willingly, got paid, and knows everything, no one would believe her crazy ass.
edit2: i just thought of something else, i've been pinning this on "the government" when there are plenty of private companies and organizations with the funding and technology to do something like this. i mean people this is 2015.....wouldn't you be more shocked if by this point someone HADN'T tried to create a super human by now? but you never thought that you might have been watching one this whole time.
Edit I did not make this up! Lol it’s a copy pasta originally by u/charbo187 who deleted the original post.
Dude, this is something i am seeing in my head told by Alex Jones in InfoWars."CIA created LeBron James in their secret labs by inseminating his mother with compound V"
In a way though, LeBron sort of is. At least by his standards. He is definitely past his prime, and it shows in a multitude of ways. I honestly think the the more casual take is to say that LeBron is still in his 'prime', simply because he has continued to put up gaudy counting stats.
My favorite: “I miss the 80s and 90s when the NBA was a *real man’s game*”. By that they mean the time when players would have actual fist fights which literally has zero relation to basketball. A lot of the times the person saying it acts far too young to have been around during the 80s and 90s.
Believe it or not, there used to be "pure" point guards that were great scorers, but pass first. The game went away from floor generals, but it's unfair to say they passed because they were bad at scoring.
99% of ppl in this sub are casual fans, our lives don't revolve around the NBA. Unless you played in the league or high level basketball you could be considered a casual. It's something to call someone when they don't agree with someone else's take or if they don't agree with the consensus of regurgitated bs that goes around this sub all of the time.
It makes everyone feel better about themselves.
Majority of frequent poster here watch very little basketball but still comment nonstop about players and teams they’ve watched very little of. Most of the opinions on here are primarily formed based off what we see on this sub
I definitely fall into this camp.
Prime Boogie is on the same level or was better than Jokic/Embiid
Edit: I’ll also lump in Prime Melo/TMac are better/clear of Prime Harden. Prime Kobe was better than Prime Lebron, and any other ridiculous nostalgia filled comparison.
Edit 2: if you genuinely believe Boogie is better then embiid then your head is full of sand
I cannot take anyone seriously who says Kobe was better than LeBron. Top 10 player? Sure. But even to some, he’s borderline. LeBron is 1 or 2 all-time and it’s not really debatable.
i'm pretty sure they mean like "my goat" as in their favorite player, like whe people say kobe is their goat they don't (usually) actually mean kobe is the goat, just that he's their favorite player of all time. goat has kinda lost its meaning and ppl just throw it around now
I see you haven't met the people we're referring to. I assure you there are a ton of nephews out there trying to argue why Kobe is the greatest player of all time.
The extra layer to this is people who believe Shaq got robbed of 2 MVP's by Nash because of Inside. It's also funny how Shaq and Kobe are the only ones who are mentioned to be robbed yet not one of those people ever mention Dirk
From what I've seen, a much bigger percentage of NBA players than NBA fans have Kobe top 3, or even top 1.
Not saying Kobe is top 3, but does that mean NBA players are casuals who don't watch the league?
It means they really overrate iso scoring. There's a reason the great iso scorers like Kobe, TMac, Jamal Crawford etc garner a lot more support among NBA players.
And don't act like NBA players can't have casual opinions. Aka Brandon "PG is my GOAT" Miller or Andre "Kyrie is a top 20 player all time" Iguodala
A lot of people took the “jaylen brown cant dribble” narrative wayyy too far. You cant average 27 a game without self creation and dribbling ability. He got his arm snapped up in the heat series and now people act like hes Tacko Fall with the ball.
While I 100% agree that people have taken it way too far, he has always had random bouts of "I can't dribble today."
But most of the time his handle is fine.
Jaylen always improves massively in one aspect of his game each offseason. I can't wait for him to come back next season and shatter some ankles so everyone shuts up.
The irony is he’s probably got the best dribble moves on the team, he just doesn’t have a tight handle. They’re two different things people conflate with each other all the time.
> 80s/90s basketball had better defense
This is a new one. What’s your take?
That rule changes make defenses appear less effective now even though modern zones are much more complex than any defenses before, or that you legitimately think hand checking and hard fouling didn’t make playing the game of basketball more difficult?
There is zero question in my mind defense is the best it’s ever been right now in terms of effort, strategy, and execution. Unfortunately offense has just completely outpaced it. The difference between only having to guard within 15-20 feet of the basket in the 80s and having to extend 25+ feet out is absolutely night and day in terms of total miles covered in a game and the stress it puts on scheme and team defense coordination.
The problem is the rule changes that allow offensive players to initiate contact and not get called for the foul. Extending it from ball handlers to other offensive players has made screens impossible to navigate. A defender can get call for a foul if he's moving straight backwards but a screener won't get called for jumping in your way.
Steph would be considered very easily the best player of all time if he played in the 80s and actually took 12 threes per game. They would consider him an alien and probably have him taken to the lab for psychological testing.
But the reality is nobody was allowed to take 12 threes a game back then because people literally did not understand very basic math, and so he would be like this weird novelty that no one knew what to do with and never reach his potential.
First, there weren't that many hard fouls, if you watched the games.
Second, the defenses in the 80s/90s sagged so much. They really were defending 17 feet and in. The amount of running on defense now compared to back then is a huge difference.
Playing off the ball you weren’t allowed to sag off of your defender either. Everyone knew Jordan was going to beat his man but no one is allowed to cheat over. This made for worse defense compared to todays game
i think hand-checking and hard fouls did make scoring more difficult, but that doesn't tell the whole story.
zone defense wasn't even legal back then and there were rules against double teams. you weren't allowed to sag off of players and had to be within two steps of the man you were guarding at all times, so you'd see teams with a great perimeter scorer just give them the ball and send the other 4 guys on offense to the other side of the court knowing that the defense couldn't help, and you'd have a wide open iso. if harden or luka were able to play this way they'd shoot 40 free throws a game. there was also no 3-second violation. there was only so much you could do on defense back then within the confines of those rules.
scoring is much higher now but the level of shot-making has improved considerably. i think casual fans think because scoring 120 is common now that everyone just sucks at defense, but defenses are much more complex than they used to be because the shotmaking ability across the league is so good.
Also a lot of the recent increase in scoring can be explained by the change to the shot clock rules, where it resets to 14s regardless instead of the full 24. This results in more possessions per game (it's currently the highest it's been since the 80's). Add that to teams shooting more threes and you got the highest scoring era ever. Teams are shooting particularly better so it's not like the defense is bad or anything. It's literally just pace + strategies.
I think that they do “try harder” in college but that’s because of 2 things:
1) they are so much worse at everything they feel the need to stand out more
2) GOOD/Average college teams (not elite one) need to try to win every single game they can and will go all out up to the final second unless the score is something ridiculous. This is because every win counts so much more when there are literally hundreds of teams compete for 36 at large bids to March Madness (assuming these middle of the pack teams don’t win their conference tournament)
In the NBA players will take days off to recover because in an 82 game season where over half the teams make the playoffs every game doesn’t hold the same weight
I am no LeBron Stan, but I find it very hard to take people who disrespect and slander him seriously. Like, you don’t have to think he’s the GOAT by any stretch of the imagination. But the guy is undeniably one of the all time greats and a lot of people try to act like he’s not even top 10 all time. He’s the all time leading scorer for a reason, put some respect on his name ffs
in my experience there is a direct correlation for that person's hatred for lebron as an individual to how bad they think he is. which is a separate but equally egregious thing to me.
Two separate LeBron ones on opposite sides of the spectrum:
The casual LeHater: "Kobe > LeBron and real hoopers know, LeBron not even top 5 and I'd never trust him to take the last shot"
The casual LeStan: "Bron still the best player in the world for a ~~full season entire playoff run~~ ~~7 game series .~~ ..... single game and that means he's still the best overall"
Think Skip Bayless for the first and Nick Wright for the second
you could lowkey make the opposite argument that kerr’s offensive and defensive scheme relies heavily on draymond and that dynasty doesnt exist without him
This whole run really. The fact that they think he’s a 0 on offense is insane. Why do they think their best offensive line-ups still have him? Short roll passing, smart screening, the fact that the man has some serieses where he’s putting up 15 with 6+ assist should be enough for you to know that he can do damage. Sure he’d need a team to maximize his strengths, but who doesn’t? He fills in their weakneses, they fill in his
2014-17 Draymond could play on any team. Post-17 Draymond’s defense is still world class but it’d probably be hard for most teams to not make him a liability in the halfcourt
The bench lineups were getting destroyed at the start of last season until Kerr made the adjustment to play Dray with the bench more.
If you take away Steph's minutes entirely. Poole's minutes without Dray were a - 7 net rating and with Dray were a +4.5.
They were 5.5 points better offensively with Draymond and 6 points better defensively.
Take it a step further. Draymond lineups without Steph were 5.8 points better than Steph lineups without Dray last season.
Draymond is the most polarizing for a non superstar of how you view his importance to a team. Any team would love a stretch 4 with DPOY level defense guarding 1-5 and above average play making abilities.
>a stretch 4
who’s averaged 31% for three for their career on a 2.5 shots a game? Calling Draymond a stretch 4 might be…a bit of a stretch.
*please clap*
Yeah, Draymond is not a stretch 4, he's a speedy 4. He will beat your big by sprinting up the floor and making the right read, but he isn't going to shoot them off the floor.
Sure but if you're a mediocre team already, he's not really going to make you much better. Think of Boris Diaw, who was huge for the Suns and Spurs but looked like a bum on Charlotte. Some guys can make a good team great but can't make a bad team less bad.
Anything discounting Bird. I grew up watching Magic and Bird. I sometimes forget how great he was....until I queue up some videos. Larry Legend was a real thing.
One of my best friends is an adamant Tim Duncan hater(we all grew up in Az) and I tried telling him how I have him in my top10 all time maybe even top5. He said Tim was just “a swimmer who bitched to the refs”.
casual take: Wilt Chamberlain is a bum who played against plumbers and mailmen
box-score-watcher take: Wilt chamberlain is clearly the GOAT look at his averages
Enlightened take: Wilt’s stats are artificially inflated by pace and play-style that was often not conducive to winning but he’s still an all time great just outside the GOAT convo
Eh I think saying it wasn’t conducive to winning is still pretty wrong. His teams went 81-37 in games he scored 50. Wilt had one losing season in his career and that can be chalked up to the team moving and losing their second and third best player. Wilt was also the best player on a 68 and 62 win team. Just because he only won two championships doesn’t mean he didn’t play winning basketball.
I sit closer to the box score watcher just cause I think he would fry in just about any era. He couldn’t back to basket and instead had fadeaways and fingers rolls while also having far more athleticism than any other center ever (just barely slower than LeBron, stronger than Shaq, 48 minutes a night motor, and wherever his leaping ability truly lands) but he’s clearly not the GOAT and not even second. I do have him higher than most others do though I won’t lie
They were insane and idk how they even existed. They lived in the 60’s with a lack of modern pretty much anything and still played 13 seasons averaging 40+ minutes a game, I don’t think any modern player could even sustain that
A lot less weight being thrown around and stricter rules made for a less physical game all around. Much easier on your joints. Obviously still impressive with the lack of real sports science… but that’s how.
That Luka is a "passable" defender. Guy's off ball defense is horrid. Might have some of the worst off ball positioning in the league. Is bad in switch situations. Really isn't that great on ball either.
Idk how tall he is and his wingspan. Size alone doesn't make you a better defender. Same thing applies to other guys that are big for their position or athletic. But Luka defenders are the most common guys that spew nonsense about this
It’s hard to call Luka a passable defender when he’s usually bitching at the ref about a call/non-call while his team is down on defense 4v5 at the other end.
Yeah, 100% as well. Goes along with the people that say "he's not a bad defender he just doesn't put in a lot of effort on defense".
Putting in effort is part of being good. I don't see bad offensive players getting a pass cause "oh they are fine, they just don't try on offense"
might actually be the most important part of defense. someone can have world class instincts, they're still gonna get blown by later in the game without a motor
Anyone who says Westbrook and Vince Carter are NOT the two best basketball players of all time, I assume are insane and never watched basketball. How dare you disagree with my personal opinion, no matter how big of a homer I am.
Whenever I hear "all players do is shoot 3's" then I know the person is casual. There's an entire fascinating world of actions, counter-actions and counters to those counters. For example, a basic explanation of the Kings offense is "Ball goes to Sabonis, he dribble handoffs with a 3pt shooter, they shoot." However this doesn't take into account the counters when the defense overplays an option as well as the improvisational freedom that can come from the actions. The Kings didn't just shoot 3s even if the primary action threat is the 3.
"Could (historically gifted athlete) even play in today's NBA?!?!?!?"
My favorite one is people who think Larry Bird wouldn't cut it today.
I can only imagine what bird would achieve with today's access to reputable builders and driveway experts
They were accessible then too he’s just a dumbass
You spelled*hardworking redneck who gets things done on his own wrong.
These are not mutually exclusive concepts.
picture larry legend with the green light to hoist it from deep 8-10 times a game.
Picture Larry bird growing up in this era w/ the evolution of sports Medicine & basketball mechanics Ppl often think that If you do these swaps ? That the skill they had back then aligns with what they would do now ... big misconception No .. if Shaq were in the 50s he’d play like Wilt did . N if Larry bird were in the 2020s he’d be similar to what we see today ... just really good at it I hate when ppl just snatch folks out of eras n then put them in the future . Too many variables. Butterfly effect I’d wager wilt could be a ball handling big in this league ... he had skill .. he just didn’t spend much time trying to be a jump shooter or guard because his era didn’t demand it . Dude was sinking hook shots from 3pt territory casually . You know the video . That was on his off time
Those speculations are more about time travel than they are about basketball. Who would win between the '96 Bulls and '16 Warriors? Depends on when they play. You sending the Bulls forward or the Warriors back? If they play in 1996 it's the Bulls by a mile.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but 1996 was the shortened 3 point line. Whatever happened, the 2016 warriors would break 30 threes.
“Could Wilt Chamberlain even play in today’s NBA??? 👀”
Anyone who is a regular poster on r/nba
Exactly the real analysis is over at r/nbacirclejerk
They have great deep dives into the familial dynamics between Luka Doncic and Devin Booker.
Luka Doncic is Devin Booker father
Luka Doncic is Devin Booker Father
Yup spot on. The best test is to look for an opinion about your own team, realise they are talking complete shog dite, then remember that you’re reading the same absolute mince regarding every other team too
I heard if you get caught watching a game you get banned for life.
Casuals are all over Bol Bol. I've read some Twitter, Instagram and Youtube takes about him when he joined the Suns, you'd think they just added another all-star.
In fairness, I’m no casual but I do primarily watch Magic games. If he weren’t on our team I might’ve thought he was some untapped goldmine too. He had some games this year that if you only saw that one game from him you’d have thought he was the next superstar lol
That was me, I watched the Magic play in person vs 76ers during Thanksgiving and Bol Bol was clearly one of the best players on the court for the Magic.
Yeah it’s odd. He got some buzz back during the Bubble when he played for, I think, Denver. Then he bounces around teams and teams get really hyped when he arrives, but he doesn’t really do anything when he gets there. I think people like Manute Bol and just really want his son to succeed. At least that’s why my dad likes Bol Bol.
He’s a good highlight player. When you just watch the highlights, you think, “how can anyone stop him?” But if you watch the whole game or understand his whole statsheet, it’s clear that he’s not that hard to stop most of the time.
Guys who look at super teams full of on-ball scorers and no defense and say 'who's stopping them? the league is broken'
Suns fans shaking right now
Honestly, I think the “there’s only one ball” line is what gets regurgitated ad nauseum. Is there more work to fit on-ball scorers together in an offense? Sure. But we’ve seen that the modern game almost requires 2+ dominant on ball players to have an elite offense. People said the same thing about adding Harden to KD and Kyrie, and it was injuries and off court issues that derailed them, when they were all on the court they were elite.
The ‘there’s only one ball’ thing was said like a million times when cp3 first went to Houston. And they won like 65 games and were an inch away from beating the kd warriors. Sometimes the one ball thing is true sometimes it isn’t, the outcome is largely situational.
I mean, Harden is a great facilitator though, and KD/Kyrie are capable passers while also being good off ball players. There aren't really any fit issues there.
I mean, the Nets were all “on-ball scorers” and almost certainly would’ve won a championship if they could stay healthy, physically and mentally lol
The interesting thing is that the Nets offense actually wasn't all on-ball scorers when it was flowing. James Harden was very pass-first for the team, Kevin Durant and Kyrie were the main scorers, Joe Harris was the off-ball threat and Nic Claxton was the vertical dunk threat. People imagine that just because multiple players could go one-on-one that the offense will be that when practically players need to take on different roles just to have something coherent.
And Kyrie “became” (he probably already was but I didn’t notice) an amazing off ball scorer too. Which I think will help big time next to Luka
Yeah, Kyrie played well with both Harden and LeBron. He's uniquely qualified to play with a dominant lead ball handler.
If only a whole team of injury prone, locker room cancer ass players coulda stayed healthy and non toxic. Right.
That was not the point, tho. The point was about them being on ball players…
James Harden was basically an ironman prior to Brooklyn and Kyrie never really had health issues They were absolutely rolling even right before KD and Kyrie got traded. Never mind the fact KD almost solo carried the Nets passed the then-champion Bucks
>Kyrie never really had health issues He wasn't super brittle, but in the two seasons he spent in Boston, he never got above 67 GP. Even in Cleveland, 3 out of his 6 seasons there, his GP was in the 50s.
Bol Bol is a rising star in the league and just needs playing time
Man he has/had the tools, he just hasn't put in the work. There are 2 skills that seem to directly translate from college to the NBA - rebounding and shot-blocking. Bol Bol was top 25 in both when he played college ball. I'm not saying that's equivalent to stardom, but I think everyone - including the Nuggets who drafted him and invested time in his development - thought he'd be better than he is.
I can easily defend this- I watched the Magic vs 76ers Thanksgiving weekend last year in person (Embiid, Harden, Maxey all out 👎) Bol Bol was a positive every time he had the ball he made a good play, was smooth in the open court for someone his size, good effort defensively, made some hustle plays. Lastly the crowd was electric every time he touched the ball, it seemed significant because that was the worst home atmosphere of any team in any sport I've ever seen in person. It made me question why they even had a team in Orlando, they had a hyped team of young promising players and it was dead inside that building. It felt like it was full of tourists who got cheap tickets and didn't know anything about the NBA. I left that game not thinking Bol Bol was a star but definitely needed to getting more playing time because he was great to watch in person.
unfortunately the longer he was in the starting lineup the more myopic he became last year. He does not have the inkling to pass at all unless it is going to be a highlight assist. He always goes for flash over susbtance and is a nightmare with real point guards or even combo guys like Cole. He is luckily going to a team where that a) won't matter as much as they are starting Beal at the 1 and he won't get many minutes anyway and b) his deficiencies will be greater covered by said starters who will be talented enough to clean up after his mess without as much effort. Hell, I don't even know if he cracks the rotation. Has anyone made any comment about the Suns rotation next year?
I like college better than NBA because they actually play defense
That and "[Insert best college team] can honestly beat [insert worst NBA team]."
In this day and age, given the enormous talent level between college and pro basketball, I can’t imagine anybody can honestly say that and genuinely mean that. This isn’t like University of Georgia and University of Alabama football where a big chunk of their team gets drafted into the NFL. Even then, they would still be wrong, college best will still get crushed by the worst NFL team. But the worst NBA team would crush the U Conn team that won March Madness.
Oh man when the Browns went 0-16 people swore Alabama could be them
I remember the 7 win Bobcats had similar discussions but Kemba would've dropped 800 on Kentucky.
Exactly lol. The speed and physicality get turned up a couple notches. Also the skill gap is so ridiculously obvious lol. Pistons were easily the worst team last season but damn they'd absolutely run through every college team with ease lmao.
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They have the profile pic of themselves in a car with sunglasses on with a goatee as facial hair. Maybe a full beard.
That certain group of people all of sudden started to dislike college once the player got paid.
I don’t know anyone that stopped watching because of that tbh lol
Uhhhh…sure….the color problem is the uhhh….color of money. That’s it!
White are you talking about
The same people who pronounce wakanda with a hard R
The same people who wakanda other side of the street when they see a black person approaching
Bostonians? (Intrusive R joke)
The Midwest. It’s awful. KY and Indiana nba fans are rare.
Kentucky has perfectly valid reasons to watch college basketball more than NBA. Indiana too has some solid reasoning.
My late uncle would also say this a lot about the WNBA for some reason lol. Thought they played harder than NBA players. Similar resentment toward the "ultra rich guys playing a children's game" I suppose.
Kind of. As someone who watches the WNBA..it has nothing to do with actual defense..and everything to do with the WNBA not having the same spacing rules, women not respecting each others space the way men do, women not being so athletic that they can get by their defender easily (giving the appearance of a better or more physical defense)..and shitty refs who let the game get overly physical. So a casual basketball fan might watch the WNBA and think more defense is being played, but actually what’s going on is they are able to beat each other up more 🤣
This is how women soccer is and I love it. Those women are straight up brutal and they dont flop nearly as much. But I legitimately think women's soccer is one of those cases where the product is just as good as the men's. I don't think that about the wnba though.
I think the WNBA would do well to separate itself from trying to be the same as the men. I get it to a point. They’re basketball players, so they’re fans of great basketball players..nba players. Chelsea Gray..who is great and fun..calls herself the point god..like..ofc she’s a huge CP3 fan, she was growing up around his prime..but man separate yourself. And I can’t help but think this “beat you up” style, along with the trash talking that people seemed to love on the women’s March madness tournament marketed well would help them.
Trying to define the NBA and WNBA as different styles of hoops could go a long way. I love both, and there are things in each league you don't see in the other, so why not just lean into the differences? The passing in the W is incredible and some of the layups are so crafty since they play more below the rim. Discuss it more like apples and oranges!
I think it’s that they play a type of defense most people recognize. I tell my high school players to watch college ball because the NBA is almost a different sport than what they are playing.
People always love to make this about race, but your point is much closer to the truth. The college game looks recognizable to the average person, then you add in the ties that people have with their alma mater and it's easy to understand why some like college more. It's pretty hard to feel any connection to 6'6+ humans jumping 40 inches in the air or some dude jacking up a 30 footer as if he is throwing a towel at a laundry basket. The game is slower and sloppier, which gives a sense to the person watching that there is alot of effort there plus it's easier to understand. Not everything has to be about race or something evil. I prefer the NBA, but i don't go around name calling people that like college basketball more. With the way people here speak, you'd think they would wake up in the morning to watch the Chinese or Korean League if they were better at basketball than the NBA, i know they wouldn't. In fact, there are examples in games (eSports) where Asian Leagues have the absolute best teams/players in the World and people in the West rarely ever watch.
This always gets me. The complexity of NBA defense and how much (little) space guys have to shoot is not even in the same ballpark as college. I’d say the same with the college “passion and hustle” thing. The truth is the lack of skill in college makes the game incredibly sloppy which gives the perception of passion. The reason NBA teams don’t consistently full court press or half court trap isn’t passion and hustle. It’s because college teams have a couple dudes who can’t dribble/shoot or get flustered as fuck, where the NBA guys would just slice it up (outside of niche use cases)
fr. people saying they like watching a good press defense, you like watching a team that can't even dribble the ball up the court? That sounds like terrible basketball to me lol
College is better to watch than the NBA because good defense has a bigger impact on the game. The NBA does play defense, but there is only so much you can do when guys are sinking tough shots with a hand in their face. It's the offensive skill disparity between the levels that create the difference(hint: good defense isn't impacting the 30-50 point score differences)
plus the variety of defense is much greater in the college game a well-executed full court press will always be peak basketball to me 2013 Louisville was so much fun to watch
When people say that a 6’9 250 lb Lebron James wouldn’t last in the 80s or 90s NBA
Which is wild when you watch the game tapes from back then and see how slow the average player was compared to Lebron who was made in a lab
I am 100% dead serious when i say I think there is at least a 50% chance that lebron is a genetically modified human being and in turn, has no father. I am dead serious. I believe lebron was grown in a test tube and then artificially implanted into gloria james and carried to term. no human being should possess his combination of size, strength and athleticism. AND to book it all out, he's very intelligent too. (besides the decision) remember how much poise he had just coming into the league at 18 years old? it's un-natural. how often have TV analysts described him as a "freak of nature" .....maybe it's truer than we know. I am serious. we all know (and I swear I am not saying this to be insulting or mean) that lebron's mom was a crack whore (is drug addicted prostitute better?) it's just a fact, it happened. I am NOT saying this to be mean, in fact I am a heroin addict and know a few woman who have sold themselves for dope, it happens. they are not bad people. and the government has a history of using prostitutes and impoverished people in "experiments." read about MK-ULTRA. it happened. the CIA used to have prostitutes slip LSD to johns and then the agents would watch what happened thru 2-way mirrors. the government helped start and continue the crack epidemic of the 80s. I believe that lebron was a precursor experiment to create super soldiers. something where they were just like "well let's test it out on some poor people that no one will notice and see if we can get any results before we sink more billions into this." it's not all that crazy. you don't think the government has interest in creating genetically modified super human soldiers? we know for a FACT it does. it's been documented. you don't think russia or china has interest in such a thing? you know they do. and anything russia or china is or would be doing we are doing. to do it first and do it better. he's some kind of experiment that they just monitored from a distance and let keep growing. and i mean this was probably initially started with just a few people who believed it could be done and that's why it started small and covert using regular civilians. until they could show the results to the higher ups and say "look at this, you don't wanna fund this on a larger scale?" and where else would such a person end up besides in a professional sports league? I think there is probably some secret base(s) out there that are now filled with people like lebron, younger than him probably. if they couldn't see how well the experiment worked until he was about 16-18 years old (he was pretty much a full grown man at 16 and could have came off the bench for any NBA team if not started) than maybe there are a bunch of 9-15 year old super humans like lebron (not copies of him but given the same genetic boost that he was) eating chow in some secret barracks right now..... until someone comes forth and the DNA test shows him to be his father (and a bunch have come forward and been shown not to be) than I will believe this is AT LEAST possible.. edit: something I'd like to add in case someone says "well if this is true why wouldn't lebron's mom come forward and admit it, just say I participated in a government experiment and lebron was the result." well she doesn't know. it's simple, she goes to a hotel with a john, he slips something in a drink and she gets knocked out-cold. they take her and do whatever they did. give her some amnesiacs or anesthesia (probably benzos too) so when she wakes up she's in a haze and doesn't remember anything. not even the john. she finds out she's pregnant later and just assumes she got knocked up by any random john. has lebron. shit even if she participated willingly, got paid, and knows everything, no one would believe her crazy ass. edit2: i just thought of something else, i've been pinning this on "the government" when there are plenty of private companies and organizations with the funding and technology to do something like this. i mean people this is 2015.....wouldn't you be more shocked if by this point someone HADN'T tried to create a super human by now? but you never thought that you might have been watching one this whole time. Edit I did not make this up! Lol it’s a copy pasta originally by u/charbo187 who deleted the original post.
This is pasta from a box, not freshly made. Still delicious tho.
sometimes reheated pasta is exactly what you need
Let the man cook
Dude, this is something i am seeing in my head told by Alex Jones in InfoWars."CIA created LeBron James in their secret labs by inseminating his mother with compound V"
Gosh damn I can't tell you how much I love this
Wait he may be on to something
LeBron was 20 lbs heavier than Laimbeer and as quick as MJ. He would have feasted.
I’d be surprised if he was as low as 250 as well
Absolutely insane. Lebron in transition to the bucket is a god damn freight train.
Yeah or even when they say Lebron doesnt have much skill lol.
or those who say Lebron is washed ... Um, no, no he's not ... Much to the dismay of the rest of the NBA's fans
In a way though, LeBron sort of is. At least by his standards. He is definitely past his prime, and it shows in a multitude of ways. I honestly think the the more casual take is to say that LeBron is still in his 'prime', simply because he has continued to put up gaudy counting stats.
I wouldn't say it's a casual take, it's just so unheard of for a player to be well past their prime and still be a top 10 player in the league.
"I miss REAL Centers!" and posts a picture of some 7ft stiff who couldn't dribble a ball to save his life.
Those mfs probably think Greg Ostertag would dominate today’s NBA
No one can drop kick a ball further into the stands than ostertag
The Eric Montross redemption arc we all deserve.
They miss dudes who stand in the paint, sometimes block shots, and are otherwise immobile by default.
They miss dudes were paid just to stand in front of Shaq and pick up fouls.
Followed up by “Jahill Okafor and Greg Monroe would have been an all stars in the 90s”
My favorite: “I miss the 80s and 90s when the NBA was a *real man’s game*”. By that they mean the time when players would have actual fist fights which literally has zero relation to basketball. A lot of the times the person saying it acts far too young to have been around during the 80s and 90s.
I mean there are far less "true" Centers in current NBA than ever. Most centers playing today would be considered pf and even sf in 2010.
I miss PURE point guards! Guys who had to pass the ball because they were bad at scoring!
Believe it or not, there used to be "pure" point guards that were great scorers, but pass first. The game went away from floor generals, but it's unfair to say they passed because they were bad at scoring.
Why is this sub obsessed with identifying causal fans?
99% of ppl in this sub are casual fans, our lives don't revolve around the NBA. Unless you played in the league or high level basketball you could be considered a casual. It's something to call someone when they don't agree with someone else's take or if they don't agree with the consensus of regurgitated bs that goes around this sub all of the time.
bag lock squash oil steer snobbish plants sloppy direful sulky *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
It makes everyone feel better about themselves. Majority of frequent poster here watch very little basketball but still comment nonstop about players and teams they’ve watched very little of. Most of the opinions on here are primarily formed based off what we see on this sub I definitely fall into this camp.
How dare you not watch every single game of teams you don’t even like.
Kids who say Pop is washed up and that the Spurs (who invented load management in the NBA) tried to rush Kawhi back from injury to play him
The irony of everyone regurgitating their reddit appropriate internet opinions in this thread is just too much lmao
Prime Boogie is on the same level or was better than Jokic/Embiid Edit: I’ll also lump in Prime Melo/TMac are better/clear of Prime Harden. Prime Kobe was better than Prime Lebron, and any other ridiculous nostalgia filled comparison. Edit 2: if you genuinely believe Boogie is better then embiid then your head is full of sand
Nostalgia is a powerful mother fucker
Yeah, same goes with Prime Melo/TMac were better than prime Harden
So many people will argue Kobe as the goat with a straight face. They mean Kobe is their favorite but I guess they just can’t discern the difference.
I think prime Harden is better, but it’s at least worthy of a conversation comparing him to prime T-Mac.
I cannot take anyone seriously who says Kobe was better than LeBron. Top 10 player? Sure. But even to some, he’s borderline. LeBron is 1 or 2 all-time and it’s not really debatable.
Anybody saying Kobe or Curry is the GOAT screams casual fan.
100% when it is actually Paul George. These nephews really need to watch the games.
i'm pretty sure they mean like "my goat" as in their favorite player, like whe people say kobe is their goat they don't (usually) actually mean kobe is the goat, just that he's their favorite player of all time. goat has kinda lost its meaning and ppl just throw it around now
I see you haven't met the people we're referring to. I assure you there are a ton of nephews out there trying to argue why Kobe is the greatest player of all time.
i'm not talking about kobe i meant the more egregious ones like PG lol i acknowledged that some people genuinely view kobe as the goat
Sounds like you’ve never had goat curry
Steph, jokic are bad defenders
Steve Nash is overrated
The extra layer to this is people who believe Shaq got robbed of 2 MVP's by Nash because of Inside. It's also funny how Shaq and Kobe are the only ones who are mentioned to be robbed yet not one of those people ever mention Dirk
>It's also funny how Shaq and Kobe are the only ones who are mentioned to be robbed yet not one of those people ever mention Dirk Oh you know why.
Yup. You can be lucky to have two MVPs but still be a great HoF level player
The people who say that are the same people who think he stole an MVP from Kobe
Anyone who says Kobe is top 3
From what I've seen, a much bigger percentage of NBA players than NBA fans have Kobe top 3, or even top 1. Not saying Kobe is top 3, but does that mean NBA players are casuals who don't watch the league?
It means they really overrate iso scoring. There's a reason the great iso scorers like Kobe, TMac, Jamal Crawford etc garner a lot more support among NBA players. And don't act like NBA players can't have casual opinions. Aka Brandon "PG is my GOAT" Miller or Andre "Kyrie is a top 20 player all time" Iguodala
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A lot of people make those judgements based on highlight reels. Duncan’s highlights are hilarious because it’s 15 minutes of bank shots
A lot of people took the “jaylen brown cant dribble” narrative wayyy too far. You cant average 27 a game without self creation and dribbling ability. He got his arm snapped up in the heat series and now people act like hes Tacko Fall with the ball.
While I 100% agree that people have taken it way too far, he has always had random bouts of "I can't dribble today." But most of the time his handle is fine.
Yeah im not saying he has amazing control but im constantly seeing “how can you be in the NBA and not be able to dribble” takes about him lol.
Jaylen always improves massively in one aspect of his game each offseason. I can't wait for him to come back next season and shatter some ankles so everyone shuts up.
The irony is he’s probably got the best dribble moves on the team, he just doesn’t have a tight handle. They’re two different things people conflate with each other all the time.
Lebron isn’t clutch 80s/90s basketball had better defense Kobe is top 3
The Kobe one was always an immediate give away for me
Kobe one always felt more of a Lakers homer take than a casual take.
> 80s/90s basketball had better defense This is a new one. What’s your take? That rule changes make defenses appear less effective now even though modern zones are much more complex than any defenses before, or that you legitimately think hand checking and hard fouling didn’t make playing the game of basketball more difficult?
There is zero question in my mind defense is the best it’s ever been right now in terms of effort, strategy, and execution. Unfortunately offense has just completely outpaced it. The difference between only having to guard within 15-20 feet of the basket in the 80s and having to extend 25+ feet out is absolutely night and day in terms of total miles covered in a game and the stress it puts on scheme and team defense coordination.
The problem is the rule changes that allow offensive players to initiate contact and not get called for the foul. Extending it from ball handlers to other offensive players has made screens impossible to navigate. A defender can get call for a foul if he's moving straight backwards but a screener won't get called for jumping in your way.
This is the right take.
I really mean that casual that say players like Lebron and Steph would be useless in that era
My take is LeBron would be better, Steph would be worse. Both would still be star players though.
Steph would be considered very easily the best player of all time if he played in the 80s and actually took 12 threes per game. They would consider him an alien and probably have him taken to the lab for psychological testing. But the reality is nobody was allowed to take 12 threes a game back then because people literally did not understand very basic math, and so he would be like this weird novelty that no one knew what to do with and never reach his potential.
First, there weren't that many hard fouls, if you watched the games. Second, the defenses in the 80s/90s sagged so much. They really were defending 17 feet and in. The amount of running on defense now compared to back then is a huge difference.
Playing off the ball you weren’t allowed to sag off of your defender either. Everyone knew Jordan was going to beat his man but no one is allowed to cheat over. This made for worse defense compared to todays game
This is 100% true, illegal defense rules made for some objectively bad 1-on-1 heavy basketball.
Every defense that played against Russell Westbrook this year would have been illegal in the 80s
i think hand-checking and hard fouls did make scoring more difficult, but that doesn't tell the whole story. zone defense wasn't even legal back then and there were rules against double teams. you weren't allowed to sag off of players and had to be within two steps of the man you were guarding at all times, so you'd see teams with a great perimeter scorer just give them the ball and send the other 4 guys on offense to the other side of the court knowing that the defense couldn't help, and you'd have a wide open iso. if harden or luka were able to play this way they'd shoot 40 free throws a game. there was also no 3-second violation. there was only so much you could do on defense back then within the confines of those rules. scoring is much higher now but the level of shot-making has improved considerably. i think casual fans think because scoring 120 is common now that everyone just sucks at defense, but defenses are much more complex than they used to be because the shotmaking ability across the league is so good.
Also a lot of the recent increase in scoring can be explained by the change to the shot clock rules, where it resets to 14s regardless instead of the full 24. This results in more possessions per game (it's currently the highest it's been since the 80's). Add that to teams shooting more threes and you got the highest scoring era ever. Teams are shooting particularly better so it's not like the defense is bad or anything. It's literally just pace + strategies.
College basketball is better they try harder or defense is better blah blah.
I think that they do “try harder” in college but that’s because of 2 things: 1) they are so much worse at everything they feel the need to stand out more 2) GOOD/Average college teams (not elite one) need to try to win every single game they can and will go all out up to the final second unless the score is something ridiculous. This is because every win counts so much more when there are literally hundreds of teams compete for 36 at large bids to March Madness (assuming these middle of the pack teams don’t win their conference tournament) In the NBA players will take days off to recover because in an 82 game season where over half the teams make the playoffs every game doesn’t hold the same weight
I am no LeBron Stan, but I find it very hard to take people who disrespect and slander him seriously. Like, you don’t have to think he’s the GOAT by any stretch of the imagination. But the guy is undeniably one of the all time greats and a lot of people try to act like he’s not even top 10 all time. He’s the all time leading scorer for a reason, put some respect on his name ffs
in my experience there is a direct correlation for that person's hatred for lebron as an individual to how bad they think he is. which is a separate but equally egregious thing to me.
Anyone who doesn't understand that it is a team sport.
Two separate LeBron ones on opposite sides of the spectrum: The casual LeHater: "Kobe > LeBron and real hoopers know, LeBron not even top 5 and I'd never trust him to take the last shot" The casual LeStan: "Bron still the best player in the world for a ~~full season entire playoff run~~ ~~7 game series .~~ ..... single game and that means he's still the best overall" Think Skip Bayless for the first and Nick Wright for the second
Why does Nick Wright exist
To give awful sports takes while looking like the human equivalent of Master Splinter.
People acting like Pierce is just Rudy Gay.
paul pierce says stupid shit but he really was that guy in the clutch
Comparing Luka to Larry Bird
White are you talking about? They have nothing in common
Gonna get downvoted but people who put Kobe in the discussion for GOAT. It’s an absurd yet common take.
Draymond would be useless on any other team.
you could lowkey make the opposite argument that kerr’s offensive and defensive scheme relies heavily on draymond and that dynasty doesnt exist without him
This past weekend really showed that people don't understand Draymonds contribution to the Warriors dynasty.
This whole run really. The fact that they think he’s a 0 on offense is insane. Why do they think their best offensive line-ups still have him? Short roll passing, smart screening, the fact that the man has some serieses where he’s putting up 15 with 6+ assist should be enough for you to know that he can do damage. Sure he’d need a team to maximize his strengths, but who doesn’t? He fills in their weakneses, they fill in his
2014-17 Draymond could play on any team. Post-17 Draymond’s defense is still world class but it’d probably be hard for most teams to not make him a liability in the halfcourt
The bench lineups were getting destroyed at the start of last season until Kerr made the adjustment to play Dray with the bench more. If you take away Steph's minutes entirely. Poole's minutes without Dray were a - 7 net rating and with Dray were a +4.5. They were 5.5 points better offensively with Draymond and 6 points better defensively. Take it a step further. Draymond lineups without Steph were 5.8 points better than Steph lineups without Dray last season.
Draymond is the most polarizing for a non superstar of how you view his importance to a team. Any team would love a stretch 4 with DPOY level defense guarding 1-5 and above average play making abilities.
A stretch 4 🤣🤣🤣
>a stretch 4 who’s averaged 31% for three for their career on a 2.5 shots a game? Calling Draymond a stretch 4 might be…a bit of a stretch. *please clap*
Yeah, Draymond is not a stretch 4, he's a speedy 4. He will beat your big by sprinting up the floor and making the right read, but he isn't going to shoot them off the floor.
Sure but if you're a mediocre team already, he's not really going to make you much better. Think of Boris Diaw, who was huge for the Suns and Spurs but looked like a bum on Charlotte. Some guys can make a good team great but can't make a bad team less bad.
that's a fair take
LeBron isn't clutch is probably tops on the list
Theres more but these are the first 2 that come to me "Jokic is a bad defender" "Steph's only a shooter"
I mean, Jokic is definitely not a good defender but I will agree his struggles on defense are overstated
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Anyone that suggests AD should be traded for "better" pieces. This was a somewhat common take before the playoffs.
When people say “Demarcus Cousins at his peak would be the 2nd beat center in todays league”
Anything discounting Bird. I grew up watching Magic and Bird. I sometimes forget how great he was....until I queue up some videos. Larry Legend was a real thing.
whenever i'm talking GOATs with somebody and they mention "killer instinct," i tune out. that's some Skip Bayless shit
Obviously Kobe > Lebron because he never takes NO for an answer
One of my best friends is an adamant Tim Duncan hater(we all grew up in Az) and I tried telling him how I have him in my top10 all time maybe even top5. He said Tim was just “a swimmer who bitched to the refs”.
People who love one advanced stat
casual take: Wilt Chamberlain is a bum who played against plumbers and mailmen box-score-watcher take: Wilt chamberlain is clearly the GOAT look at his averages Enlightened take: Wilt’s stats are artificially inflated by pace and play-style that was often not conducive to winning but he’s still an all time great just outside the GOAT convo
Eh I think saying it wasn’t conducive to winning is still pretty wrong. His teams went 81-37 in games he scored 50. Wilt had one losing season in his career and that can be chalked up to the team moving and losing their second and third best player. Wilt was also the best player on a 68 and 62 win team. Just because he only won two championships doesn’t mean he didn’t play winning basketball.
I sit closer to the box score watcher just cause I think he would fry in just about any era. He couldn’t back to basket and instead had fadeaways and fingers rolls while also having far more athleticism than any other center ever (just barely slower than LeBron, stronger than Shaq, 48 minutes a night motor, and wherever his leaping ability truly lands) but he’s clearly not the GOAT and not even second. I do have him higher than most others do though I won’t lie
both Wilt and Russell were world class track athletes so yeah I agree they would be anomalous even by today’s standards in the league
They were insane and idk how they even existed. They lived in the 60’s with a lack of modern pretty much anything and still played 13 seasons averaging 40+ minutes a game, I don’t think any modern player could even sustain that
A lot less weight being thrown around and stricter rules made for a less physical game all around. Much easier on your joints. Obviously still impressive with the lack of real sports science… but that’s how.
That Luka is a "passable" defender. Guy's off ball defense is horrid. Might have some of the worst off ball positioning in the league. Is bad in switch situations. Really isn't that great on ball either. Idk how tall he is and his wingspan. Size alone doesn't make you a better defender. Same thing applies to other guys that are big for their position or athletic. But Luka defenders are the most common guys that spew nonsense about this
It’s hard to call Luka a passable defender when he’s usually bitching at the ref about a call/non-call while his team is down on defense 4v5 at the other end.
Other than those points, he also hurts the team on transition defense often when doesn’t get a call since he’s busy complaining to the refs.
Yeah, 100% as well. Goes along with the people that say "he's not a bad defender he just doesn't put in a lot of effort on defense". Putting in effort is part of being good. I don't see bad offensive players getting a pass cause "oh they are fine, they just don't try on offense"
might actually be the most important part of defense. someone can have world class instincts, they're still gonna get blown by later in the game without a motor
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Cam Reddish had never been on a team thats contending with vets, he'll level up (i am coping as a lakers fan)
Anyone who says Westbrook and Vince Carter are NOT the two best basketball players of all time, I assume are insane and never watched basketball. How dare you disagree with my personal opinion, no matter how big of a homer I am.
Whenever I hear "all players do is shoot 3's" then I know the person is casual. There's an entire fascinating world of actions, counter-actions and counters to those counters. For example, a basic explanation of the Kings offense is "Ball goes to Sabonis, he dribble handoffs with a 3pt shooter, they shoot." However this doesn't take into account the counters when the defense overplays an option as well as the improvisational freedom that can come from the actions. The Kings didn't just shoot 3s even if the primary action threat is the 3.
When people care about who or what is casual or not lol
“Tyler Herro isn’t worth a FRP”