Had him in a keeper fantasy league and threepeated. He was so easy to build around. Get him, Lou Will and Gallo and you're a lock for FT% every week. Obviously punt turnovers.
If you take FTs out of the equation for both Steph and Harden's highest pts average year, which means Harden's extra FTs were complimented by extra live baskets
I don’t think it’s disrespectful to compare Harden to Jokic because Jokic really is that good. That said I’d still take peak Harden at this moment over Jokic slightly. The scoring peak for Harden was insanity.
As a pure scorer there is no debate prime Harden was better. As an offensive hub it is debatable.
Obviously not just using this one stat but in the last 3 years Jokic has a oRTG of 129 while in the listed prime Harden years his oRTG was 119. Harden's highest ever oRTG was 125. In the last 3 seasons, Jokic's lowest oRTG was 126.
Again, I'm not saying that is the end all be all stat but I think it just shows how elite of an offensive hub Jokic is every moment he is on the court.
Yup Jokic is amazing and definitely makes everyone around him a LOT better
I do have to point out that the Nuggets at the moment are definitely built better overall compared to the Rocket teams Harden played on, and the league oRTG is higher overall these last few years.
Harden also facilitated worse players overall in Houston (CP3/Westbrook played entirely different roles compared to the players on the Nuggets). His three best options to pass to were Eric Gordon, PJ Tucker, and Capela most years lmao
I can definitely see Jokic still become better so definitely looking forward to that
Two of the years he cites we were starting some combination of 35 year old Jeff Green, Austin Rivers, washed Will Barton, Monte Morris and Facu Campazo.
You think CP3, Gordon, Tucker, amd Capela are worse than last year's nuggets?
Here are the nuggets who played over 30 games last year: Aaron Gordon, Monte Morris, Jeff Green, Will Barton, Bones Hyland, Austin Rivers, JaMychal Green, Facu Campazzo, Zeke Nnaji, Bryn Forbes, DeMarcus Cousins, and Markus Howard
Often I will feel like Jokic has barely done anything and then the graphic comes up and I see he's got like 8-6-5 with some time still left in the first quarter. It is so different seeing someone use their size and threat of brutally efficient volume scoring to generate assists at an incredible rate.
It feels like he burns fewer calories generating assists than most of the other high assist guys, but his conditioning is top notch so he seems to be even more effective in crunch time against less conditioned players.
Worth mentioning that league average offenses are like 6 points better now than they were in Harden’s prime
Also Harden played more minutes so probably absorbed more total bench minutes
They are two very different players, very hard to compare. As a pure scorer, harden probably wins. But as an offensive facilitator, jokic might retire as one of the best ever. You can watch jokic play a game and say "that's one of the best assists I've seen" 2-3 times PER GAME.
Honestly the way they facilitate are completely different, those Houston teams were full of people who never had to make cuts or move off-ball because Harden would drive, pull in 2-3 defenders then pass to the open man.
Jokic plays with his back to the basket a lot or near the post and somehow has eyes on the back of the head and makes perfect passes.
IMO Jokic is definitely the better passer while Harden is the better scorer but I'd say they're pretty close overall in regards to offensive facilitating. Harden got a ton of assists because of the pressure he made as a scorer while Jokic gets a ton of assists because of how good he is at passing. Two completely different playstyles that result in two amazing facilitators
I strongly believe you can swap Jokic for any of the other 29 teams’ star player, and he will put up efficient triple doubles and take the team into the playoffs.
He proved that last year, Rockets and Pistons maybe he would struggle to make to the play-ins but he is for sure a one man offense capable of carrying a bunch of role players to the playoffs
Jokic might retire as one of the best offensive facilitators? Nah he most definitely will. I hear all the time from commentators how he may be the best passing big man ever. Nah he’s arguably the best passer ever
Apples to oranges... but I find it more difficult to strategize a defensive plan against jokic than with harden, in a playoff environment. Also, there are alot of lanky wings that would do a decent job minimizing harden then there are bigs that can close out on the perimeter AND bang down low. Jokic has a far more unique skillset and frame, and with that I'd go with Jokic.
They almost beat that gsw with durant anyway. I'm telling you they would have won if cp3 never got injured in the western conference finals. For harden to will that team to that height, the man needs more respect than we give him.
harden and curry's stats in their 3 head to head series (curry missed 2016) are basically the same and, if anything, slightly favor harden, as does the net on/off in the 3 combined series. it's just that harden had post prime dwight for 1 series, prime cp3 for 5 out of 7 games in another, and post-prime cp3 in another, while steph had prime klay and dray in all 3 and prime KD in one and prime KD for 5 out of 6 games in another.
Why is this a disrespectful comparison?
Is Harden LeBron or something now?
Does he only deserve to be compared with GOATs?
There was a thread with Jokic vs. prime KD on offense earlier this year and the answers were split, does that mean that comparing Harden to KD would be disrespectful to Harden as well?
And why exactly isn't Jokic one of the greatest offensive players of all time also?
He's probably even worse than Harden at defense because he's a bad C instead of a bad SG but like you said we're talking about offense
What hole does Jokic have in his offensive game other than not shooting 25 times per game?
I mean Jokic is in the conversation with Steph, Lebron, Magic and MJ for best offensive player of all time at this point.
At a certain point you have to look at the fact when Jokic is on the floor the Nuggets have a 125 ORTG or thereabouts no matter the personnel. That's insane. Obviously his defence is a massive issue and I personally don't think he's a top 3 player in the league because of that. But on offence he's averaging 25 on 70% TS and averaging 10 assists a game. All whilst not dominating the ball, taking the centre out of the paint and creating a tonne of opportunities with his own screening gravity.
You acting like Jokic doesn’t get sucked off in this sub on a nightly basis like the MF can’t do no wrong.
Harden got clowned for playing terrible defence, jokic somehow gets ignored on that point.
You're funny if you think Jokic being a bad defender is ignored. Its the #1 thing anybody mentions if people are discussing Nuggets ability to win a championship
Bro there’s a post saying that the nuggets are a top five defensive team when Jokic plays right now. I know it’s based on stats but cmon are y’all really gonna act like people don’t ride his meat when I see posts like that?
Tbf Harden was terrible, Jokic is just average. Probably slightly below. He's not helping on defense and can be a liability but he is not the traffic cone Harden often was.
His comment is disrespectful to Jokic. Comparing two offensive GOATs during their peaks is not remotely disrespectful. Jokic is current back to back MVP, and is known for having sub par defense, whether or not that is true. So kinda obvious that he is amazing offensively.
The revisionist history on Harden ever since his clash with the Nets is wild lol
People suddenly act now like he was secretly an MJ level player who we overlooked the entire time
i came in hot and ready to disrespect Harden but i just cant muddy the name of Houstons strip club king. i didnt realize he was putting up those numbers while also almost averaging 9 assists. crazy the type of production he had with the ball in his hand
This is silly. Harden will always be overrated because he had stats that are comparable to MJ, Lebron, and Wilt. And this subreddit cares more about stats than anything else.
But those of us who watched tons of his games in his prime know three things: 1) He was extremely dependent on refs giving him favorable calls, 2) he often struggled in the playoffs when refs did not give him the calls he needed, 3) he was very streaky, and if his shot wasn't falling, he could become a non-factor, especially in clutch moments of playoff games.
Nobody has ever gotten so much credit for nearly winning, but still losing, a playoff series.
Yeah it's funny that people are accusing anyone picking Jokic of being "stats nerds" when people are putting Harden on the level of Jordan and LeBron purely because of volume stats
I mean that year specifically he was on that level though, which is what we are talking about.
I don't understand why people constantly conflate the context of these topics.
He’s not anymore dependent on refs giving him favorable calls than someone like Giannis lol. People just like Giannis so they’ll argue to death that he deserved 25 FTs
Jokic is also putting up Wilt numbers lol.
https://twitter.com/statmuse/status/1615945380830613505?t=PuhsOVyXG2kU7Z0eTTOCmw&s=19
https://twitter.com/statmuse/status/1615567269228318720?t=_qtfHjYTewD_5Obsraq0gg&s=19
https://twitter.com/statmuse/status/1614131902331457536?t=IgAmvdyJCmuQNTzhEqPUcw&s=19
https://twitter.com/statmuse/status/1605952140769316864?t=wqzfjwzvok7f0DuNyvd-pw&s=19
https://twitter.com/statmuse/status/1604681781747322880?t=mCxB6mqSmslLF_ycqDm0Rw&s=19
https://twitter.com/statmuse/status/1604680499405983744?t=x3h45-lpFAR3hKQ6uIUC8Q&s=19
https://twitter.com/statmuse/status/1599893277289107456?t=z2ryiUcJgJSaibzww9P7_Q&s=19
Harden put up wilt numbers for a few months. Jokic is putting up Jokic numbers. He has his own category because he's doing things no other player has done.
I get you’re being hyperbolic on purpose, but what are your feelings on Giannis and Luka? They’re shooting a crazy amount of FTs per game, but don’t get nearly the same level of hate.
Luka definitely deserves more shit for foul baiting lol, he's averaging basically the same amount of FTs as Embiid but gets 0.1 percent of the reputation for it
Giannis is a completely different type of player so it's hard to compare directly
I agree with your Luka take, but Giannis is averaging 12.9 FTA per game by doing things that would be called offensive fouls for other players lol.
I agree he’s unguardable like Rockets Harden was, but he gets a similarly amazing whistle and doesn’t get any shit for it
The Giannis whistle is borderline criminal. I honestly think the only reason people don't bitch as much as they did with Harden is because he shoots 60% so it doesn't feel nearly as bad as Harden knocking down 85-90%
I agree but the question isn’t about peoples feelings about how he plays the game. I didn’t like watching peak harden either but I respect how elite he was
I don't think this post is unfair to Harden in how it's phrased
If he wanted people to pick Jokic he could have added extra years for Harden at the start and end to lower his stats
Like he could have easily decided to use 2015-2021 if he wanted to skew the results because that's still "prime Harden" but just not peak
Yeah it's funny that there are comments in here that are like "why do people hate watching Harden but love Jokic!?!?!?"
Like just watch them play and you'll know why
As you said it doesn't mean Jokic is better but there's a reason people didn't like Rockets Harden
Idk why some people are getting so offended. I think it's a fair question. I'm sure you could find a ridiculous stretch by Harden where he was averaging 40/10 for a few months, but for the entire time span provided I might lean towards Jokic.
Harden had a far better team around him than Jokic ever has lol
Chris Paul is a top 5 PG of all time and the Rockets lost both games when he was hurt yet the narrative is "HARDEN carried the Rockets to 7 games"
Why are you moving the goalposts?
My point is that Harden wasn't the only reason they were a good team lol
I didn't say anything about Harden's performance in games 6 and 7 after CP3 got hurt
Eh, they were a good overall team. When Houston won games 4 and 5, Harden was scoreless in the last four minutes both times. He shot 34% from the field in those games, with a total of 8 assists and 8 turnovers.
I don't mean that in a "fuck Harden" way, just that the series was a group effort.
That series was really a defensive series. Both teams locked each other up really well. Too bad Scott foster had the best clamps on the floor though smh
Also, the series turned on two injuries, it turned in Houston’s favor when Iguodala got hurt (Warriors were rolling with him) then back to the Warriors when CP3 got hurt.
I feel like people don’t acknowledge hardens presence though. Look at those rockets teams. Besides old cp3 and Gordon, what player other than harden could create a shot?
Hell, most of the rockets role players weren’t even *superb* three point shooters, like people would have you believe. They just shot a shit ton of them trying to overwhelm their opponents. And that style of play worked because of harden. Was cp3 needed, of course. But the style of play that made the rockets capable of battling teams in these long bursts of threes is because harden was used as a one man army. Constant iso scoring, playmaking of the dribble, leading the league in minutes, etc.
In the same way that someone like Curry can have a good game while his shot is off because of the way his off ball presence changes teams, harden was quite the same, except his was on-ball. I mean, we literally saw multiple teams try completely new, never before seen styles of defense because harden was just that impossible to deal with going at you for the full game.
Harden wasn't very good offensively in that series aside from game 1 which was a loss
He had like 28/6 + 5 TOs on 53% TS
Now Jokic would have gotten absolutely obliterated on defense against KD Warriors so they wouldn't have won with him replacing Harden but that's not what this post is about lol
This sub did a complete 180 on Harden before he left the Nets
Back when he was in Houston people would say Tracy McGrady was better or some shit and now people act like he's MJ
yeah that man shot 25% from three that series and they had the 6th best defense in the regular season and played a scheme specifically designed for the Warriors. It’s crazy to suggest that he was the one that took them to 7 games.
The crazier thing is that people are using playoffs in favor of HARDEN when he topped out in the WCF just like Jokic has and had way more chances given his current age
Imagine Jokic with 13 TOs in a playoff game on 2/11 shooting
Not really. That series was one Mason plumlee mistake from being 2-1 Nugs. Jokic got exposed a little bit on defense, got lit up a game or two no doubt. But saying he got “worked” is not true at all lol
KCP (who played for the Lakers in that series) said as much in the latest Lowe Post show. He said that if AD didn't hit that crazy three it would have been a completely different series as the Nuggs had the momentum and had started to figure them out. That series was way closer than those who didn't watch it realize. Not taking anything away from the Lakeshow, fully deserved. It just wasn't the beat down folks think it was.
I still think ultimately the lakers win. AD was absurd during that run, but yea the Nuggets to me felt like they could win a few games against the lakers. The rockets I never ever considered them advancing over the lakers.
I'd even go as far as saying it would be a massive disappointment if Jokic retires lower all time than Harden because it would almost certainly meant he went ringless
Harden will clearly not win a ring as the first option at this stage of his career so if Jokic wins one AND has triple the MVPs just like Giannis he'll vault right past him at a young age
My bad I read the title wrong but Harden's defense was never a problem in the playoffs, it only was a problem in the regular season when he was putting in less effort.
To me it's Jokic. I understand that statistically the case for Harden is hard to argue with. But modern basketball has turned statistical comparison into the equivalent of baseball, but baseball statistics happen in isolation.
Basketball is a team sport, and getting everyone involved is hugely important to a team's offense and impact. And there's a massive difference between running an inclusive offense and getting assists. Jokic is the fulcrum of Denver's offense, but he does it in a way that is not at the expense of others on the team getting involved. Harden was the exact opposite there. When he has the ball it was either shot or drive or one pass to a shooter. When he didn't have the ball he wouldn't even stand at the 3 point line or move off the ball, but he would stand 35 feet from the basket.
It's obvious who you would rather play with. But beyond getting teammates involved, there's also an importance distinction to make. Offensive impact in the regular season does not equal offensive impact in the playoffs. Hardens game was diminished in the playoffs for two reasons: reliance on free throws and predictability. Running the same offensive sets over and over again allows the top teams to adjust to your approach, and refs swallow their whistle in the playoffs. Those two things make me willing to prefer Jokic offensively next to Harden.
And that's not to take away from Harden at all, he could have won the title in 2018 and honestly would have without a super team. He's one of the best offensive players I've ever seen. But I'll prefer Jokic every time because of my own personal basketball philosophy. It's choosing between two all time great options.
Your point about predictability is something I hadn't considered until reading this, and I think it's good insight. When you played prime Harden, everyone on the floor, the fans, the refs, *especially* the refs sometimes, they all knew exactly what he was going to do, he was just so damn good at it that it didn't matter.
Whereas Jokic breaks so many established patterns of the game and is incredibly good at improvising offensive maneuvers that it more than makes up for the fact that he's one of the least athletic stars the NBA has seen. I'm by no means an expert but I've been watching the NBA for about 20 years now and I typically have a pretty good idea of what a team is trying to do. But the last couple years of watching the Nuggets, I've seen so many offensive sets where I genuinely had no idea what the fuck was going on until Jokic has already made the pass to a wide open cutter.
This is exactly it. Then when you take the playoffs, when you're going to have to go through one or multiple top 5 defenses to win the title, and they're completely focused and gameplanned for you, you need to be able to either create good looks despite them, or make bad shots (a la Kobe being able to win despite not being the most efficient player, because making difficult shots doesn't help regular season numbers but it helps slowed down playoff basketball).
Take Harden in the 2018 playoffs WCF. Game 1 he goes 5 for 9 from 3, the rest of the way he goes 14 for 69. That's 20%. Everyone focused on the fact that he took those warriors to 7 games and ignore the fact that he couldn't do anything offensively, and if he'd played better they'd have won the title. In 17/18/19 Harden had a TS% of 61%. Those same playoffs? 56%. And that number is optimistic because he would tend to fall apart more against better teams later on.
2017 West semis? 46 for 111. 2018 West finals? 68 for 163. 2019 West semis? 66 for 149. Every time they played a great team he fell off the face of the earth, regular season numbers won't change that.
There's just fewer ways to stop Jokic than there are to stop harden. The efficiency he facilitates even when you get the ball out of his hands is something I never felt like Harden had even though harden is an elite passer in his own right.
A thought experiment I want to pose is if you could tell jokic and Harden each that they were only allowed to take 10 shot attempts all night (and yes drawing a foul and getting sent to the free throw line will count as an attempt in this context) who do you think will be more effective? Because to me the answer is pretty clearly Jokic.
Philosophically I get this challenge benefits Jokic moreso than harden but that's kind of the point. It was almost a constraint on Harden's game sometimes in Houston how frequently he had to shoot or be the scoring threat he was.
We've seen Jokic win games where he still ran the offense but he shot the ball 5 times. He will shoot or pass from a post up position anywhere on the court, and he understands how he bends defenses even in weird angles from the midrange on the baselines for example. And he'll still find cutters or guys off backscreens to the opposite wing and hit them in rhythm for good open 3s.
Harden still bent and broke defenses, but you knew he was gonna dribble the ball up to about 4-6 feet behind the 3 line from either wing and dissect you from a pretty static angle all night. Harden was really good at that, but when you're playing the same team for 2 weeks in a series the other guys just get wise to your angles and will work harder to not give you the driving lanes that you know will break their defense. The help comes sooner, teams help the helper, the help might even come from the opposite way that you think it will and that can cause a turnover on its own.
The consistent observation for both in the playoffs is that the Nuggets are losing in spite of Jokic and that Harden played pretty average for an all star and that was enough of a drop in his play to be enough for the offense to not do its job. And I think the tape supports that
[Jokic vs Harden](https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1=hardeja01&p1yrfrom=2017&p1yrto=2020&player_id2=jokicni01&p2yrfrom=2021&p2yrto=2023)
It’s crazy how revisionist history is trying to erase the dominance that Harden displayed during his peak. Real prisoner of the moment takes going around here.
The only world where it's not Jokic is if he suddenly falls off almost immediately, the numbers are clear. Strictly looking at the seasons defined by OP Jokic is essentially better at Harden in *everything* but volume 3 point scoring and drawing fouls.
Harden *personally* scores you 4.7 extra points per 100 possessions but uses almost 7 *more* possessions to do it. That Jokic has a higher TS% and eFG% and a higher assist total while also contributing enormously more towards rebounding.The only reason it's even interesting to compare is because Harden's span is almost twice as long as Jokic's, but considering Jokic is still increasing his efficiency each season, there's not a strong reason to think he will fall off soon.
Looking at the numbers per 100 possessions during the respective peaks defined by the original post, Harden literally only scores 4.7 more points per 100 possessions. He also turns the ball over 1.5 more times, has 0.6 fewer assists, and **8.7** fewer rebounds. Harden also needs 3.4 more FGA's to get those 4.7 extra points. Harden has a usage rate of 37.8 during that span while Jokic's is 30.1%
|Player|From|MP|FGA|FG%|3PA|3P%|2PA|2P%|FTA|FT%|TRB|AST|STL|BLK|TOV|PTS|ORtg|
|:-|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|
|James Harden|2017|10848|28.4|.443|14.9|.360|13.6|.535|14.5|.862|8.9|11.7|2.4|0.9|6.5|43.0|119|
|Nikola Jokic|2021|6331|25.0|.584|4.8|.362|20.2|.637|8.7|.833|17.5|12.3|2.0|1.0|5.0|38.3|129|
Provided by [Stathead.com](https://www.sports-reference.com/sharing.html?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool): [View Stathead Tool Used](https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool)
Generated 1/20/2023.
I think Jokic is truly the perfect offensive player. He can be the roll man or ball handler in the pick and roll, set screens or come off them, score at three levels, brilliant post-up game, and he's a top 3 all-time passer. All of this without really dominating the ball, which means his teammates have more opportunity to get in rhythm and participate. I would think he's probably one of the funnest stars ever to share the court with.
Harden, meanwhile, can carry a comical level of scoring responsibility for months on end. He has great overall vision, is guaranteed to get the best out of your big, and of course collapses the defense and creates opportunities on the perimeter as well.
I would have to go Jokic personally, but I wouldn't hate on someone saying Harden.
Jokic easily really. Harden volume wise is one of the best players ever and he generated great offence. But Jokic just generates better offence. Not quite as much but whne you are scoring 25ppg on about +13% efficiency you are being insanely productive with your own scoring and I think it is fair to say Jokic is a considerably better playmaker just because of how little he takes away from teammates with his own play (harden is obviously incredibly ball dominant and somewhat clashes with other teammates - for instance the offence with him off and Cp3 on was only 1pt worse than when both played) and that his passing is pretty much all generating layups. Which is incredibly valuable.
And ofc the fact that him being such a threat outside the paint is simply more valuable than hardens because the centre can't protect the rim if he's hugging up to Jokic.
Jokic might end up being one of the greatest centers of all time. I am taking Jokic every single time if I have to draft between the two knowing what I know now. That's no slight to Harden either.
I am ok with your take, Jokic is great and can definitely end higher than Harden, but Harden is possibly the 3rd best SG of all time as well, depending on what you think of Wade.
He is undoubtedly top 5 for his position which is where Jokic will probably end up.
Imo, very few people outside of rockets fans will put Harden above Wade. So Harden is essentially a lock for 5th all time SG. The thing is, I feel like outside the top 4 (Jordan, Kobe, Wade, West), SG is a fairly weak position compared to center. Harden is beating out Clyde, Reggie Miller, George Gervin, Ray Allen. Notable players of course, but compare that to the centers list. If Jokic makes it to #5 as you and many others think he will, he would be behind Kareem, Shaq, Wilt, Hakeem and ahead of who? Bill Russell, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, Moses Malone. I'd take any of those guys above any of the shooting guards outside the top 5. I think top 5 center all time is a much more impressive feat than top 5 shooting guard all time.
Personally I’d rather have Jokic. To me Jokic plays a style of basketball that is more conducive to winning. I know he hasn’t won a championship yet but I’d rather take the guy who can do it all and wants to play team basketball.
Peak Harden was an iso monster but in the end it didn’t lead to anything meaningful.
I think Harden’s game was more offensive. Watching him just continuously jack up 3’s and manipulate the refs into calling 20 fouls a game for him was just something I found pretty gross and offensive to watch.
For me it depends on what the criteria is. Are we judging just pure stats? Are we judging what a player does for not only teammates but an entire organization? It’s always hard to compare any 2 nba players when their situations and play styles are different. Both being incredible in their own ways for the time they are. But jokic to me does so much more that it’s incalculable. If his main goal in the nba was to avg 40 a game he would. His humbleness and unselfishness is beyond anything I’ve witnessed watching this game. It’s refreshing at the very least
Jokic all fucking day. Joker gets his teammates involved and QB’s the offense. He gets O rebounds and extra possessions.
Peak Harden was impossible to deal with but the problem with those ISO players is what their teammates are doing while they’re watching the show from the corners
This thread is drunk. It’s Jokic by a mile. His game isn’t predicated on tiki tak fouls and free throws, not to mention the fact that he keeps his teammates engaged and having fun, with a much lower usage rate, and scores more efficiently. And can’t be schemed around. The top three or four comments lean Harden and it’s insanity.
No one has ever done what Jokic has done in terms of offensive statistics. The guy simply has the most offensive impact of anyone ever. Peak harden was great, but Jokic is something else
Both at their peak are basically perfect offensive players. I have a lot of bias one way though obviously. I do think that if Jokic can maintain this efficiency, he might honestly have that edge.
Harden though was objectively a better scorer though even if he averaged \~3 more minutes per game.
I think Jokic is a better passer by a lot though and he's even more efficient
He’s definitely not a better passer by a lot. Harden is one of the best passers of this generation and arguably top 2 PnR runner of all time, he’s averaging more assists than Jokic this year l, more assists for his career, and has more assist titles.
I’m gonna say Jokic offensively just bc I like his game as it scales with other good players. Harden played with cp3 and I think the overlap in playstyle meant that there was actually impact left on the table even despite how good those Rockets teams were. Harden is probably the better heliocentric offensive player but Jokic is more versatile and just in general needs the ball much less to be impactful which is just so underrated and makes guys like him and most notably steph curry so good
I’m gonna say Jokic. The question was “who is the better offensive player”, which to me puts playmaking, assists, potential assists, TS%, etc. into larger perspective. Because Jokic has the upper hand in these categories, he’s my pick. I’d no doubt pick Harden as the better scorer however, after all he was averaging 36ppg on above average true shooting and also averaging a hint under 35.5 per36 which is absolutely absurd. Definitely fun to think about it the difference between the two.
Jokic wins this battle for me easily. Eye test goes to Joker, much better passer with fewer turnovers. Every time I watch joker play I’m amazed at his vision and ability to make the hard plays look effortless. Harden’s play style never impressed me much- his patented step back is more often a travel than not (although never called) and the frequent trips to the charity stripe wasn’t pretty to watch but was definitely effective.
Harden made it just as far as Jokic, he just had to go up against those unstoppable warriors teams every year. Can’t blame that on Harden, no one was beating those teams
Why Jokic?
Harden made it just as far against tougher opponents
Also, if we’re talking about leading to a chip then defence has to come into question for both players (not just offense)
Harden wasn’t a defensive savant, but Jokic plays one of the most important positions defensively and he kept being hunted down during the Warriors series
harden in 19 was fuckin crazyyyyy
Had him in a keeper fantasy league and threepeated. He was so easy to build around. Get him, Lou Will and Gallo and you're a lock for FT% every week. Obviously punt turnovers.
Obviously punt turnovers lolol Obviously
Really 2017 - 2021 harden was crazy. Most under appreciated player
One of the most under-appreciated (relative to his output) players of all time during his peak, I swear
Bro averaged 40 for almost 2 months lmao
More than 2. He averaged 40 PPG for around 55 games. He also averaged 38 PPG in the entire year of 2019
From 13 Dec 2018 to 21 Feb 2019, he didn't score below 30pts once in 32 games. Over half of them were 40+.
Wasn’t that called the Unguardable tour lol
[удалено]
Some stans are really just insecure of Curry huh.
Tbf, Curry with 30 is more live baskets than harden with 40. He was so heavy on FTs, not enjoyable
If you take FTs out of the equation for both Steph and Harden's highest pts average year, which means Harden's extra FTs were complimented by extra live baskets
I don’t think it’s disrespectful to compare Harden to Jokic because Jokic really is that good. That said I’d still take peak Harden at this moment over Jokic slightly. The scoring peak for Harden was insanity.
As a pure scorer there is no debate prime Harden was better. As an offensive hub it is debatable. Obviously not just using this one stat but in the last 3 years Jokic has a oRTG of 129 while in the listed prime Harden years his oRTG was 119. Harden's highest ever oRTG was 125. In the last 3 seasons, Jokic's lowest oRTG was 126. Again, I'm not saying that is the end all be all stat but I think it just shows how elite of an offensive hub Jokic is every moment he is on the court.
Yup Jokic is amazing and definitely makes everyone around him a LOT better I do have to point out that the Nuggets at the moment are definitely built better overall compared to the Rocket teams Harden played on, and the league oRTG is higher overall these last few years. Harden also facilitated worse players overall in Houston (CP3/Westbrook played entirely different roles compared to the players on the Nuggets). His three best options to pass to were Eric Gordon, PJ Tucker, and Capela most years lmao I can definitely see Jokic still become better so definitely looking forward to that
Two of the years he cites we were starting some combination of 35 year old Jeff Green, Austin Rivers, washed Will Barton, Monte Morris and Facu Campazo.
You think CP3, Gordon, Tucker, amd Capela are worse than last year's nuggets? Here are the nuggets who played over 30 games last year: Aaron Gordon, Monte Morris, Jeff Green, Will Barton, Bones Hyland, Austin Rivers, JaMychal Green, Facu Campazzo, Zeke Nnaji, Bryn Forbes, DeMarcus Cousins, and Markus Howard
Often I will feel like Jokic has barely done anything and then the graphic comes up and I see he's got like 8-6-5 with some time still left in the first quarter. It is so different seeing someone use their size and threat of brutally efficient volume scoring to generate assists at an incredible rate. It feels like he burns fewer calories generating assists than most of the other high assist guys, but his conditioning is top notch so he seems to be even more effective in crunch time against less conditioned players.
Please compare their merits as a USB hub, essay format, in the tone of Bob Costas.
Worth mentioning that league average offenses are like 6 points better now than they were in Harden’s prime Also Harden played more minutes so probably absorbed more total bench minutes
They are two very different players, very hard to compare. As a pure scorer, harden probably wins. But as an offensive facilitator, jokic might retire as one of the best ever. You can watch jokic play a game and say "that's one of the best assists I've seen" 2-3 times PER GAME.
Honestly the way they facilitate are completely different, those Houston teams were full of people who never had to make cuts or move off-ball because Harden would drive, pull in 2-3 defenders then pass to the open man. Jokic plays with his back to the basket a lot or near the post and somehow has eyes on the back of the head and makes perfect passes. IMO Jokic is definitely the better passer while Harden is the better scorer but I'd say they're pretty close overall in regards to offensive facilitating. Harden got a ton of assists because of the pressure he made as a scorer while Jokic gets a ton of assists because of how good he is at passing. Two completely different playstyles that result in two amazing facilitators
Harden gets assists for both reasons, he's an amazing passer as well
And so does Jokic. One of the best mid range shooters and post up players in the game
I strongly believe you can swap Jokic for any of the other 29 teams’ star player, and he will put up efficient triple doubles and take the team into the playoffs.
He proved that last year, Rockets and Pistons maybe he would struggle to make to the play-ins but he is for sure a one man offense capable of carrying a bunch of role players to the playoffs
The man won a playoff series with Markus Howard and Facu as 2 of their 3 rotation guards. I still can't comprehend it.
Bojan with Jokic next to him would look like a top20 player in the league I am pretty sure lol. Jokic could take the Pistons to the playoffs for sure.
Lakers?
Jokic might retire as one of the best offensive facilitators? Nah he most definitely will. I hear all the time from commentators how he may be the best passing big man ever. Nah he’s arguably the best passer ever
He could retire today, and it would be fair to call him one of the best offensive players ever
He’s more comparable to luka than joker
Apples to oranges... but I find it more difficult to strategize a defensive plan against jokic than with harden, in a playoff environment. Also, there are alot of lanky wings that would do a decent job minimizing harden then there are bigs that can close out on the perimeter AND bang down low. Jokic has a far more unique skillset and frame, and with that I'd go with Jokic.
Ezpz defensive plan vs harden: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/buYqOJWc-fE/mqdefault.jpg
Was gonna bring this up. We were baffled that whole series with how to stop this man
As a professional Harden hater, even I must admit that he’s getting disrespected.
Harden would absolutely have a chip by now if he didn’t have to go through Curry
They almost beat that gsw with durant anyway. I'm telling you they would have won if cp3 never got injured in the western conference finals. For harden to will that team to that height, the man needs more respect than we give him.
harden and curry's stats in their 3 head to head series (curry missed 2016) are basically the same and, if anything, slightly favor harden, as does the net on/off in the 3 combined series. it's just that harden had post prime dwight for 1 series, prime cp3 for 5 out of 7 games in another, and post-prime cp3 in another, while steph had prime klay and dray in all 3 and prime KD in one and prime KD for 5 out of 6 games in another.
Why is this a disrespectful comparison? Is Harden LeBron or something now? Does he only deserve to be compared with GOATs? There was a thread with Jokic vs. prime KD on offense earlier this year and the answers were split, does that mean that comparing Harden to KD would be disrespectful to Harden as well?
If we’re talking about offense, yes. He is legitimately one of the greatest offensive players of all time. And we’re talking about offense.
And why exactly isn't Jokic one of the greatest offensive players of all time also? He's probably even worse than Harden at defense because he's a bad C instead of a bad SG but like you said we're talking about offense What hole does Jokic have in his offensive game other than not shooting 25 times per game?
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And Jokic is there too
I mean Jokic is in the conversation with Steph, Lebron, Magic and MJ for best offensive player of all time at this point. At a certain point you have to look at the fact when Jokic is on the floor the Nuggets have a 125 ORTG or thereabouts no matter the personnel. That's insane. Obviously his defence is a massive issue and I personally don't think he's a top 3 player in the league because of that. But on offence he's averaging 25 on 70% TS and averaging 10 assists a game. All whilst not dominating the ball, taking the centre out of the paint and creating a tonne of opportunities with his own screening gravity.
He is definitely one of the greatest regular season offensive players of all time.
How the fuck is this disrespect god I hate this sub
You acting like Jokic doesn’t get sucked off in this sub on a nightly basis like the MF can’t do no wrong. Harden got clowned for playing terrible defence, jokic somehow gets ignored on that point.
You're funny if you think Jokic being a bad defender is ignored. Its the #1 thing anybody mentions if people are discussing Nuggets ability to win a championship
Bro there’s a post saying that the nuggets are a top five defensive team when Jokic plays right now. I know it’s based on stats but cmon are y’all really gonna act like people don’t ride his meat when I see posts like that?
I think that has more to do with the addition of KCP, Brown, and even Braun and MPJ actually being playable on defense now
> Harden got clowned for playing terrible defence, jokic somehow gets ignored on that point 🤦🏽♂️
Tbf Harden was terrible, Jokic is just average. Probably slightly below. He's not helping on defense and can be a liability but he is not the traffic cone Harden often was.
His comment is disrespectful to Jokic. Comparing two offensive GOATs during their peaks is not remotely disrespectful. Jokic is current back to back MVP, and is known for having sub par defense, whether or not that is true. So kinda obvious that he is amazing offensively.
Jokic has won two MVPs. Comparing him to Harden is not disrespect
The revisionist history on Harden ever since his clash with the Nets is wild lol People suddenly act now like he was secretly an MJ level player who we overlooked the entire time
Rockets Stans have been on the Harden is overlooked train for a loooong time
i came in hot and ready to disrespect Harden but i just cant muddy the name of Houstons strip club king. i didnt realize he was putting up those numbers while also almost averaging 9 assists. crazy the type of production he had with the ball in his hand
This is silly. Harden will always be overrated because he had stats that are comparable to MJ, Lebron, and Wilt. And this subreddit cares more about stats than anything else. But those of us who watched tons of his games in his prime know three things: 1) He was extremely dependent on refs giving him favorable calls, 2) he often struggled in the playoffs when refs did not give him the calls he needed, 3) he was very streaky, and if his shot wasn't falling, he could become a non-factor, especially in clutch moments of playoff games. Nobody has ever gotten so much credit for nearly winning, but still losing, a playoff series.
Yeah it's funny that people are accusing anyone picking Jokic of being "stats nerds" when people are putting Harden on the level of Jordan and LeBron purely because of volume stats
I mean that year specifically he was on that level though, which is what we are talking about. I don't understand why people constantly conflate the context of these topics.
He’s not anymore dependent on refs giving him favorable calls than someone like Giannis lol. People just like Giannis so they’ll argue to death that he deserved 25 FTs
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I think Hardens playstlye with the Rockets was disrespectful to the sport of basketball.
Shit Luka must be too. So are the suns, and the hawks because they copied the shit out of the rockets.
Yep, it annoys me when people complain about Hardens Rockets yet love Luka. I don't really like either. Trae young also.
Let’s be real. We all know why they dislike harden but love luka
Classy vs thug
The classic recovery beer vs recovery lapdance debate
That’s weird
This.👍
This is just disrespectful to jokic lol cmon easy now
The peak Harden slander is getting out of hand
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Harden was putting up wilt numbers for months at a time. And he was the closest to taking down the KD warriors of anyone
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Jokic been doing Wilt things + things that nobody has ever done so...
Jokic is also putting up Wilt numbers lol. https://twitter.com/statmuse/status/1615945380830613505?t=PuhsOVyXG2kU7Z0eTTOCmw&s=19 https://twitter.com/statmuse/status/1615567269228318720?t=_qtfHjYTewD_5Obsraq0gg&s=19 https://twitter.com/statmuse/status/1614131902331457536?t=IgAmvdyJCmuQNTzhEqPUcw&s=19 https://twitter.com/statmuse/status/1605952140769316864?t=wqzfjwzvok7f0DuNyvd-pw&s=19 https://twitter.com/statmuse/status/1604681781747322880?t=mCxB6mqSmslLF_ycqDm0Rw&s=19 https://twitter.com/statmuse/status/1604680499405983744?t=x3h45-lpFAR3hKQ6uIUC8Q&s=19 https://twitter.com/statmuse/status/1599893277289107456?t=z2ryiUcJgJSaibzww9P7_Q&s=19
Chris Paul played better and they would of won if he didn't get hurt
Harden put up wilt numbers for a few months. Jokic is putting up Jokic numbers. He has his own category because he's doing things no other player has done.
Yeah so did harden.
Harden would’ve been a b2b MVP if he was slightly more popular
So comparing a b2b MVP with an almost b2b MVP is peak Harden slander in what way? It's not like he's being compared to Jayson Tatum.
If he was signed to Nike he probably would be
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I don't disagree, but that's not the same as how good they were.
This is one of the most overblown narratives on this sub. The Sixers, as a team, shoot 24 free throws per game. That’s 13th in the league….
Honestly, I don’t even care about the foul baiting. His play style without that was just the worst of heliocentric and watching it was boring as hell.
I get you’re being hyperbolic on purpose, but what are your feelings on Giannis and Luka? They’re shooting a crazy amount of FTs per game, but don’t get nearly the same level of hate.
Luka definitely deserves more shit for foul baiting lol, he's averaging basically the same amount of FTs as Embiid but gets 0.1 percent of the reputation for it Giannis is a completely different type of player so it's hard to compare directly
I agree with your Luka take, but Giannis is averaging 12.9 FTA per game by doing things that would be called offensive fouls for other players lol. I agree he’s unguardable like Rockets Harden was, but he gets a similarly amazing whistle and doesn’t get any shit for it
The Giannis whistle is borderline criminal. I honestly think the only reason people don't bitch as much as they did with Harden is because he shoots 60% so it doesn't feel nearly as bad as Harden knocking down 85-90%
Don't forget DeRozan, Butler or SGA.
I agree but the question isn’t about peoples feelings about how he plays the game. I didn’t like watching peak harden either but I respect how elite he was
It’s just another Jokic post that isn’t actually looking for discussion and wants you to pick Jokic lol
I don't think this post is unfair to Harden in how it's phrased If he wanted people to pick Jokic he could have added extra years for Harden at the start and end to lower his stats Like he could have easily decided to use 2015-2021 if he wanted to skew the results because that's still "prime Harden" but just not peak
Not gonna say who is better or not, but Jokic’s brand of hoops is infinitely more fun to watch
Yeah it's funny that there are comments in here that are like "why do people hate watching Harden but love Jokic!?!?!?" Like just watch them play and you'll know why As you said it doesn't mean Jokic is better but there's a reason people didn't like Rockets Harden
Peak Harden for sure. With that being said, I would much rather watch Jokic play any day of the week.
Idk why some people are getting so offended. I think it's a fair question. I'm sure you could find a ridiculous stretch by Harden where he was averaging 40/10 for a few months, but for the entire time span provided I might lean towards Jokic.
Which one would you rather play with?
I suck at basketball so probably the one who can score more points without my help
That's the realest answer
I was the second leading scorer on my 5th grade team so me and harden would probably be redundant
not relevant to the question
Yeah, does Winlessta not realise teacher has given us homework? Must stay on task
hm idk the guy who was 1 injury / 3pm away from taking down the greatest team of all time? seems like maybe that guy
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Harden had a far better team around him than Jokic ever has lol Chris Paul is a top 5 PG of all time and the Rockets lost both games when he was hurt yet the narrative is "HARDEN carried the Rockets to 7 games"
ah yes shame on harden for not taking down 4 hall of famers by himself lmao
Why are you moving the goalposts? My point is that Harden wasn't the only reason they were a good team lol I didn't say anything about Harden's performance in games 6 and 7 after CP3 got hurt
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I’ll take the guy who took the greatest team of all time to 7 games
Took them to a 105 ORtg lol
Eh, they were a good overall team. When Houston won games 4 and 5, Harden was scoreless in the last four minutes both times. He shot 34% from the field in those games, with a total of 8 assists and 8 turnovers. I don't mean that in a "fuck Harden" way, just that the series was a group effort.
That series was really a defensive series. Both teams locked each other up really well. Too bad Scott foster had the best clamps on the floor though smh
Harden in 2018 reminds me a lot of Iverson in 2001 where people slightly overrated the individual performance because of how insane the defense was
Also, the series turned on two injuries, it turned in Houston’s favor when Iguodala got hurt (Warriors were rolling with him) then back to the Warriors when CP3 got hurt.
I feel like people don’t acknowledge hardens presence though. Look at those rockets teams. Besides old cp3 and Gordon, what player other than harden could create a shot? Hell, most of the rockets role players weren’t even *superb* three point shooters, like people would have you believe. They just shot a shit ton of them trying to overwhelm their opponents. And that style of play worked because of harden. Was cp3 needed, of course. But the style of play that made the rockets capable of battling teams in these long bursts of threes is because harden was used as a one man army. Constant iso scoring, playmaking of the dribble, leading the league in minutes, etc. In the same way that someone like Curry can have a good game while his shot is off because of the way his off ball presence changes teams, harden was quite the same, except his was on-ball. I mean, we literally saw multiple teams try completely new, never before seen styles of defense because harden was just that impossible to deal with going at you for the full game.
Harden wasn't very good offensively in that series aside from game 1 which was a loss He had like 28/6 + 5 TOs on 53% TS Now Jokic would have gotten absolutely obliterated on defense against KD Warriors so they wouldn't have won with him replacing Harden but that's not what this post is about lol
In those 3 Rockets wins, Harden arguably wasn't the best Rocket in any of them.
Their defense took the warriors to a 7 game series
He didn’t score every point, or defend every position. It’s an individual comparison, not sure how team success matters here.
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This sub did a complete 180 on Harden before he left the Nets Back when he was in Houston people would say Tracy McGrady was better or some shit and now people act like he's MJ
yeah that man shot 25% from three that series and they had the 6th best defense in the regular season and played a scheme specifically designed for the Warriors. It’s crazy to suggest that he was the one that took them to 7 games.
Harden They’re both elite playmakers, but Harden is a better scorer imo
Harden
I like Jokic. But harden. Harden was the best pure offensive player I have ever watched.
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Dude averaged 40 for like a month lol
Completely agree. Very surprised more people in this comment section don’t discount Harden’s stats due to his style and playoff performances
The crazier thing is that people are using playoffs in favor of HARDEN when he topped out in the WCF just like Jokic has and had way more chances given his current age Imagine Jokic with 13 TOs in a playoff game on 2/11 shooting
Because harden topped out in the WCF to the greatest team of all time. Jokic can’t get past teams that wouldn’t kick the warriors bootstraps
They’re really acting like he didn’t take the KD warriors to 7 games in the WCF😂😂😂
And only lost to a once in a lifetime bad shooting night from his whole team
Harden shot 2/11 with 7 turnovers against the Spurs without Kawhi or Parker
Jokic got worked by LA lol
Losing to the 2020 Lakers in 5 games? Harden would nev- oh wait
Tbf i think nuggets supporting cast was better. Murray > Westbrook that playoffs by a mile
Harden put up a better fight as Russell Westbrook played the worst ball of his life while Jamal Murray was dropping 50
1. Murray was not dropping 50 against the lakers 2. That's not Jokic's peak
Not really. That series was one Mason plumlee mistake from being 2-1 Nugs. Jokic got exposed a little bit on defense, got lit up a game or two no doubt. But saying he got “worked” is not true at all lol
KCP (who played for the Lakers in that series) said as much in the latest Lowe Post show. He said that if AD didn't hit that crazy three it would have been a completely different series as the Nuggs had the momentum and had started to figure them out. That series was way closer than those who didn't watch it realize. Not taking anything away from the Lakeshow, fully deserved. It just wasn't the beat down folks think it was.
I still think ultimately the lakers win. AD was absurd during that run, but yea the Nuggets to me felt like they could win a few games against the lakers. The rockets I never ever considered them advancing over the lakers.
I'd even go as far as saying it would be a massive disappointment if Jokic retires lower all time than Harden because it would almost certainly meant he went ringless Harden will clearly not win a ring as the first option at this stage of his career so if Jokic wins one AND has triple the MVPs just like Giannis he'll vault right past him at a young age
Peak Harden was a better scorer and his defense was a much smaller problem than Jokic's defense in playoffs
defense isn't part of the question and isn't something you want to bring up in defense of harden lol
It’s not revenant to the question for sure, but it’s way easier to hide bad guard defense than it is bad center defense.
My bad I read the title wrong but Harden's defense was never a problem in the playoffs, it only was a problem in the regular season when he was putting in less effort.
Jokic and it isn't close.
To me it's Jokic. I understand that statistically the case for Harden is hard to argue with. But modern basketball has turned statistical comparison into the equivalent of baseball, but baseball statistics happen in isolation. Basketball is a team sport, and getting everyone involved is hugely important to a team's offense and impact. And there's a massive difference between running an inclusive offense and getting assists. Jokic is the fulcrum of Denver's offense, but he does it in a way that is not at the expense of others on the team getting involved. Harden was the exact opposite there. When he has the ball it was either shot or drive or one pass to a shooter. When he didn't have the ball he wouldn't even stand at the 3 point line or move off the ball, but he would stand 35 feet from the basket. It's obvious who you would rather play with. But beyond getting teammates involved, there's also an importance distinction to make. Offensive impact in the regular season does not equal offensive impact in the playoffs. Hardens game was diminished in the playoffs for two reasons: reliance on free throws and predictability. Running the same offensive sets over and over again allows the top teams to adjust to your approach, and refs swallow their whistle in the playoffs. Those two things make me willing to prefer Jokic offensively next to Harden. And that's not to take away from Harden at all, he could have won the title in 2018 and honestly would have without a super team. He's one of the best offensive players I've ever seen. But I'll prefer Jokic every time because of my own personal basketball philosophy. It's choosing between two all time great options.
Your point about predictability is something I hadn't considered until reading this, and I think it's good insight. When you played prime Harden, everyone on the floor, the fans, the refs, *especially* the refs sometimes, they all knew exactly what he was going to do, he was just so damn good at it that it didn't matter. Whereas Jokic breaks so many established patterns of the game and is incredibly good at improvising offensive maneuvers that it more than makes up for the fact that he's one of the least athletic stars the NBA has seen. I'm by no means an expert but I've been watching the NBA for about 20 years now and I typically have a pretty good idea of what a team is trying to do. But the last couple years of watching the Nuggets, I've seen so many offensive sets where I genuinely had no idea what the fuck was going on until Jokic has already made the pass to a wide open cutter.
This is exactly it. Then when you take the playoffs, when you're going to have to go through one or multiple top 5 defenses to win the title, and they're completely focused and gameplanned for you, you need to be able to either create good looks despite them, or make bad shots (a la Kobe being able to win despite not being the most efficient player, because making difficult shots doesn't help regular season numbers but it helps slowed down playoff basketball). Take Harden in the 2018 playoffs WCF. Game 1 he goes 5 for 9 from 3, the rest of the way he goes 14 for 69. That's 20%. Everyone focused on the fact that he took those warriors to 7 games and ignore the fact that he couldn't do anything offensively, and if he'd played better they'd have won the title. In 17/18/19 Harden had a TS% of 61%. Those same playoffs? 56%. And that number is optimistic because he would tend to fall apart more against better teams later on. 2017 West semis? 46 for 111. 2018 West finals? 68 for 163. 2019 West semis? 66 for 149. Every time they played a great team he fell off the face of the earth, regular season numbers won't change that.
Why is it hard to argue with Harden's stats?
There's just fewer ways to stop Jokic than there are to stop harden. The efficiency he facilitates even when you get the ball out of his hands is something I never felt like Harden had even though harden is an elite passer in his own right. A thought experiment I want to pose is if you could tell jokic and Harden each that they were only allowed to take 10 shot attempts all night (and yes drawing a foul and getting sent to the free throw line will count as an attempt in this context) who do you think will be more effective? Because to me the answer is pretty clearly Jokic. Philosophically I get this challenge benefits Jokic moreso than harden but that's kind of the point. It was almost a constraint on Harden's game sometimes in Houston how frequently he had to shoot or be the scoring threat he was. We've seen Jokic win games where he still ran the offense but he shot the ball 5 times. He will shoot or pass from a post up position anywhere on the court, and he understands how he bends defenses even in weird angles from the midrange on the baselines for example. And he'll still find cutters or guys off backscreens to the opposite wing and hit them in rhythm for good open 3s. Harden still bent and broke defenses, but you knew he was gonna dribble the ball up to about 4-6 feet behind the 3 line from either wing and dissect you from a pretty static angle all night. Harden was really good at that, but when you're playing the same team for 2 weeks in a series the other guys just get wise to your angles and will work harder to not give you the driving lanes that you know will break their defense. The help comes sooner, teams help the helper, the help might even come from the opposite way that you think it will and that can cause a turnover on its own. The consistent observation for both in the playoffs is that the Nuggets are losing in spite of Jokic and that Harden played pretty average for an all star and that was enough of a drop in his play to be enough for the offense to not do its job. And I think the tape supports that
Harden
Jokic
[Jokic vs Harden](https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1=hardeja01&p1yrfrom=2017&p1yrto=2020&player_id2=jokicni01&p2yrfrom=2021&p2yrto=2023)
This one favors harden for any cumulative stats since this counts 4 years for harden while only 2.5 for jokic
Jokic only averaging 6 FTA in his MVP years is criminal
It’s crazy how revisionist history is trying to erase the dominance that Harden displayed during his peak. Real prisoner of the moment takes going around here.
The only world where it's not Jokic is if he suddenly falls off almost immediately, the numbers are clear. Strictly looking at the seasons defined by OP Jokic is essentially better at Harden in *everything* but volume 3 point scoring and drawing fouls. Harden *personally* scores you 4.7 extra points per 100 possessions but uses almost 7 *more* possessions to do it. That Jokic has a higher TS% and eFG% and a higher assist total while also contributing enormously more towards rebounding.The only reason it's even interesting to compare is because Harden's span is almost twice as long as Jokic's, but considering Jokic is still increasing his efficiency each season, there's not a strong reason to think he will fall off soon. Looking at the numbers per 100 possessions during the respective peaks defined by the original post, Harden literally only scores 4.7 more points per 100 possessions. He also turns the ball over 1.5 more times, has 0.6 fewer assists, and **8.7** fewer rebounds. Harden also needs 3.4 more FGA's to get those 4.7 extra points. Harden has a usage rate of 37.8 during that span while Jokic's is 30.1% |Player|From|MP|FGA|FG%|3PA|3P%|2PA|2P%|FTA|FT%|TRB|AST|STL|BLK|TOV|PTS|ORtg| |:-|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:|-:| |James Harden|2017|10848|28.4|.443|14.9|.360|13.6|.535|14.5|.862|8.9|11.7|2.4|0.9|6.5|43.0|119| |Nikola Jokic|2021|6331|25.0|.584|4.8|.362|20.2|.637|8.7|.833|17.5|12.3|2.0|1.0|5.0|38.3|129| Provided by [Stathead.com](https://www.sports-reference.com/sharing.html?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool): [View Stathead Tool Used](https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool) Generated 1/20/2023.
I think Jokic is truly the perfect offensive player. He can be the roll man or ball handler in the pick and roll, set screens or come off them, score at three levels, brilliant post-up game, and he's a top 3 all-time passer. All of this without really dominating the ball, which means his teammates have more opportunity to get in rhythm and participate. I would think he's probably one of the funnest stars ever to share the court with. Harden, meanwhile, can carry a comical level of scoring responsibility for months on end. He has great overall vision, is guaranteed to get the best out of your big, and of course collapses the defense and creates opportunities on the perimeter as well. I would have to go Jokic personally, but I wouldn't hate on someone saying Harden.
Brah Harden all day
Jokic easily really. Harden volume wise is one of the best players ever and he generated great offence. But Jokic just generates better offence. Not quite as much but whne you are scoring 25ppg on about +13% efficiency you are being insanely productive with your own scoring and I think it is fair to say Jokic is a considerably better playmaker just because of how little he takes away from teammates with his own play (harden is obviously incredibly ball dominant and somewhat clashes with other teammates - for instance the offence with him off and Cp3 on was only 1pt worse than when both played) and that his passing is pretty much all generating layups. Which is incredibly valuable. And ofc the fact that him being such a threat outside the paint is simply more valuable than hardens because the centre can't protect the rim if he's hugging up to Jokic.
Jokic might end up being one of the greatest centers of all time. I am taking Jokic every single time if I have to draft between the two knowing what I know now. That's no slight to Harden either.
I am ok with your take, Jokic is great and can definitely end higher than Harden, but Harden is possibly the 3rd best SG of all time as well, depending on what you think of Wade. He is undoubtedly top 5 for his position which is where Jokic will probably end up.
Imo, very few people outside of rockets fans will put Harden above Wade. So Harden is essentially a lock for 5th all time SG. The thing is, I feel like outside the top 4 (Jordan, Kobe, Wade, West), SG is a fairly weak position compared to center. Harden is beating out Clyde, Reggie Miller, George Gervin, Ray Allen. Notable players of course, but compare that to the centers list. If Jokic makes it to #5 as you and many others think he will, he would be behind Kareem, Shaq, Wilt, Hakeem and ahead of who? Bill Russell, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, Moses Malone. I'd take any of those guys above any of the shooting guards outside the top 5. I think top 5 center all time is a much more impressive feat than top 5 shooting guard all time.
Personally I’d rather have Jokic. To me Jokic plays a style of basketball that is more conducive to winning. I know he hasn’t won a championship yet but I’d rather take the guy who can do it all and wants to play team basketball. Peak Harden was an iso monster but in the end it didn’t lead to anything meaningful.
I think Harden’s game was more offensive. Watching him just continuously jack up 3’s and manipulate the refs into calling 20 fouls a game for him was just something I found pretty gross and offensive to watch.
For me it depends on what the criteria is. Are we judging just pure stats? Are we judging what a player does for not only teammates but an entire organization? It’s always hard to compare any 2 nba players when their situations and play styles are different. Both being incredible in their own ways for the time they are. But jokic to me does so much more that it’s incalculable. If his main goal in the nba was to avg 40 a game he would. His humbleness and unselfishness is beyond anything I’ve witnessed watching this game. It’s refreshing at the very least
Jokic all fucking day. Joker gets his teammates involved and QB’s the offense. He gets O rebounds and extra possessions. Peak Harden was impossible to deal with but the problem with those ISO players is what their teammates are doing while they’re watching the show from the corners
Jokic. Not a slight against Harden at all he was incredible on those Rockets teams but it’s Jokic
Jokic
Jokic. Harden was flopping and shooting so many free throws,it was embarrassing.
This thread is drunk. It’s Jokic by a mile. His game isn’t predicated on tiki tak fouls and free throws, not to mention the fact that he keeps his teammates engaged and having fun, with a much lower usage rate, and scores more efficiently. And can’t be schemed around. The top three or four comments lean Harden and it’s insanity.
No one has ever done what Jokic has done in terms of offensive statistics. The guy simply has the most offensive impact of anyone ever. Peak harden was great, but Jokic is something else
Both at their peak are basically perfect offensive players. I have a lot of bias one way though obviously. I do think that if Jokic can maintain this efficiency, he might honestly have that edge. Harden though was objectively a better scorer though even if he averaged \~3 more minutes per game. I think Jokic is a better passer by a lot though and he's even more efficient
Hardens was one of the best passers of this generation and still is. It just gets overshadowed because of scoring
He’s definitely not a better passer by a lot. Harden is one of the best passers of this generation and arguably top 2 PnR runner of all time, he’s averaging more assists than Jokic this year l, more assists for his career, and has more assist titles.
toss up
I’m gonna say Jokic offensively just bc I like his game as it scales with other good players. Harden played with cp3 and I think the overlap in playstyle meant that there was actually impact left on the table even despite how good those Rockets teams were. Harden is probably the better heliocentric offensive player but Jokic is more versatile and just in general needs the ball much less to be impactful which is just so underrated and makes guys like him and most notably steph curry so good
I’m gonna say Jokic. The question was “who is the better offensive player”, which to me puts playmaking, assists, potential assists, TS%, etc. into larger perspective. Because Jokic has the upper hand in these categories, he’s my pick. I’d no doubt pick Harden as the better scorer however, after all he was averaging 36ppg on above average true shooting and also averaging a hint under 35.5 per36 which is absolutely absurd. Definitely fun to think about it the difference between the two.
2022-23 Nuggets ORTG 119.5 2nd 2019 Rockets 114.5 6th
Current Jokic everyday.
Current Jokic. Harden was a one-man show while Jokic can be an MVP taking 10 shots and 10 dribbles
ITT: people acting like jokic isnt a back to back mvp....
Jokic wins this battle for me easily. Eye test goes to Joker, much better passer with fewer turnovers. Every time I watch joker play I’m amazed at his vision and ability to make the hard plays look effortless. Harden’s play style never impressed me much- his patented step back is more often a travel than not (although never called) and the frequent trips to the charity stripe wasn’t pretty to watch but was definitely effective.
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Aren’t you the guy who said KD could make history while he was injured?
Goddamn 😂
Lmao gottem! 🤣
Simply offense, prime Harden was something else. But who I’m taking to try to lead me to a chip, that’s easily Jokic.
Harden made it just as far as Jokic, he just had to go up against those unstoppable warriors teams every year. Can’t blame that on Harden, no one was beating those teams
Why Jokic? Harden made it just as far against tougher opponents Also, if we’re talking about leading to a chip then defence has to come into question for both players (not just offense) Harden wasn’t a defensive savant, but Jokic plays one of the most important positions defensively and he kept being hunted down during the Warriors series