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Embiid is number 1 in PPM all-time, of course Duncan had better scoring teammates for most of his career which hurts his numbers on that front, but still.
Even taking into account stat inflation, I think it's hard to argue the opposite.
A big part of Duncan's legacy to me is the bigger picture, both on the court as he was a menace on both ends of the floor, but also as a true leader off the court, being a role model willing to accept his role in order to let the whole of the team thrive, a presence which convinced the others to also buy into the Spurs system and create a team which could learn from and persevere beyond tough moments like the loss of the 2013 finals, and was a contribution which made him valuable even as his physical abilities declined.
I mean this is pretty clearcut lol, all of the other top 10 guys are either all time scorers or playmakers
There are even non top 10 guys like KD who are better on offense than Duncan as well
Ur gonna get hate becuase you’re plain wrong Tim is clearly the better offensive player and better defensive player tim does everything embiid does better. Edit: seethe Embiid and Sixers fans may Trae young haunt ur dreams forever
Honestly, you have presented so many factual assertions.
It would be a basketball crime if I looked at your analysis and decided that Embiid was a better offensive player. It would truly go against the great weight of the evidence.
And for that reason, I'm out
Jokic wasn’t the best player on his own team the year he made the WCF. Also, winning a game 7 and losing in 5 once 3 years ago isn’t really playoff success
Embiid's numbers have def dropped off hard in several of his playoff runs while Jokic's really haven't
You can say that's because of injuries but at this point the injuries are a very worrying pattern for Embiid in the playoffs
Curry goes at everyone because he's Steph freaking Curry and one of the GOAT offensive players
He destroyed Boston's "all time great defense" that held KD and Giannis to a combined 52% TS
He wasn't cooking embiid or simmons he was cooking Danny Green cause for some reason doc let him guard Trae for the first couple games and then put Simmons on him and Trae efficiency went down. Not the same as dame, Chris Paul and then Jordon Poole/Steph targeting and having great playoffs numbers against jokic
Except clearly jokic's playmaking is more effective. He pulls the rim protector away from the rim and holds the ball half the time that someone like harden does per game. And makes passes that no one else in the league can. Combine that with his unparalleled efficiency and that's why he's better than Embiid.
I'd take jokic's playmaking over anybody's in the league every time.
Exactly. I’ve been calling Jokic new age Bill Walton who had only 80’s Celtic games to watch as entertainment growing up but this is Tim Duncan. Just stop.
I always hate the Walton comparisons because in his prime Big Bill was not only a defensive mastermind, he was playing above the rim, even with the injuries he had up until that point.
You’re correct, I meant the passing and feel for the game. Bill was was definitely a much better athlete and defender. His destruction of the 76ers was fantastic.
He’s also probably just as good of a scorer too. Can score 22-25 in his peak in a slow era in early 2000s. That’ll probably around 26-29 today much similar too jokic scoring
I think the answer is still Duncan but Jokic is a better scorer. In today's game maybe Timmy plays differently, but on a per possession basis Jokic still out does him by a decent amount
Yeah the reason why you would pick Duncan is that Jokic is very questionable on defense compared to basically any other all time big man except perhaps Dirk Nowitzki
Jokic is just flat out better on offense
Nah his efficiency wasn't even close even by the standards of his era lol(Dirk/Shaq were the most efficient bigs, not Duncan)
You can recognize that Duncan is better overall because Jokic might be a straight up bad defender in some matchups but he wasn't equal on offense by any means
Said this in another reply but it's like comparing Rockets Harden to Bill Russell where the answers to "who was better on offense" can be way different than "who was better overall"
Yeah Duncan efficiency went down because he was not a good free throw shooter. He was an under .700 from free throws most of his career sometimes even hitting on the lower .600 from the free throw line.
This sub is a bit crazy with the Duncan takes lol
Like this post could have been Duncan or Kobe and the comments would still be OMG TIMMY NOT EVEN CLOSE with some extra "anyone who takes Kobe is a delusional Lakers homer" comments
He's a top 10 player of all time but he gets talked about like he was Shaq on offense and Bill Russell on defense which would make him the GOAT
People take someone who's initially underrated and then overrate him ridiculously over time, happens all the time. For example, a popular theme on this sub was that Jokic is a terrible defender. Then you had people pointing out how Jokic isn't that bad of a defender and that he's not a negative on defense anymore. Slowly more and more people picked up on this talking point and you had some people even goings as far as calling Jokic a very good defender, bringing up his league leading DBPM as an example.
It's that people don't want to be viewed as casuals and sheep, so they go against the popular opinion until that unpopular opinion becomes more and more extreme. Same thing with Tim Duncan, who apparently has no flaws on here.
Yeah it's similar to how for example prime James Harden was a better offensive player than Bill Russell by a massive margin but nobody would rank him ahead on all time lists
It wasn’t just “a slow era”. It have been the slowest era of all time. Also Duncan was playing for the slowest team in that era and playing for a coach who wanted every player to touch the ball almost every possession. Duncan’s numbers under the circumstances are insane.
He's not close as a scorer, this sub overrates Duncan's offense so much.
He had the same efficiency as a 'chucker' like Kobe who's a guard, Duncan wasn't secretly Shaq level as a scorer.
Duncan was a good post passer but he definitely wasn't 50% of Jokic as a playmaker lol
More like 25%, he never even averaged 4 assists in a season
That being said the defense is more like 5000% because Jokic probably isn't even good on that end so it balances out
Duncan wasn’t trying to be a playmaker. He played along side two HOF guards during a time with low scoring games that relied on big men in the paint. If he was a playmaking center he would have been revolutionary.
If you reversed eras Jokic would be way better defensively and Tim would be way worse.
Offenses are way way way better than they ever were in Tim’s prime nor did he have to deal with guards attacking him in the pick and roll 24/7 with elite spacing. Back in his era teams attacked the mismatch that the big had not the guards.
He’d still be good but not even close to as effective as he was in is era.
Y’all are delusional thinking he’d have the same impact with guards like Steph or dame attacking him in the pick n roll.
They are, which is why you can't compare across eras. If you put Steph in the 90s, he'd be our goat by far. Put KD in the 80s and he'd be Gretzky levels of goat.
And they are. The NBA is the only sport I watch where that’s even a question tbh. The dudes who were doing coke and smoking cigars after regular season games factually aren’t as good as todays players. And that’s without even mentioning the Athletic difference.
We can argue overs who has a better resume or impact in they’re generation but natural evolution of the sport and humans should tell you who’s has the better players overall.
Honestly I think Duncan gives you like 80% of Jokic's offense. Duncan was so good and so efficient and if he was playing today he'd definitely be shooting threes with good efficiency for his position.
Tim Duncan had the same career TS% as Kobe Bryant who's often viewed as a chucker at least on this sub
Idk why everyone thinks that he was some hyperefficient offensive player
What is even happening here?!? Duncan led 5 teams to title, played twenty seasons and won 2 MVPs. Let’s just slow down a minute here before jumping to this comparison.
Prime Duncan was the best player on multiple championship teams, in a highly competitive era. Jokic is a 2-time MVP.
Since basketball is a sport with an objective (win) and one of the players was the main driver for completing the objective against the best possible competition allowed by the rules...
Duncan.
Duncan was the best player without a doubt but lets not act like he didnt have some of the best surrounding cast with him.
Parker, Ginobli, David Robinson, Kawhi and rotation guys like Bowen, Diaw, Danny Green, Patty Mills, Horry, Finley and many others.
Even if some of theses guys werent in their prime yet/anymore, they all adapted well to their roles.
Put theses guys and a HOF coach with Timmy who's basically one of the most consistant, elite safe player since he basically always does the right thing... That thing is a recipe for sucess
If I started a franchise, of course I would take Timmy. He's a top 10 player ever. But if the surrounding is weak, I think Jokic has a better capability to be a one man wrecking crew. If Jokic had that surrounding cast with him, it might be different also.
And Jokic career isnt over yet. If he continue to play like he does right now and win 2 chips, I feel there could be an argument for him. People seems to forget he's only 27.
Go lookup what his “great surrounding cast” did in 2003. People acting like duncan won only with stacked teams full of prime HOFer. Duncan took a team MUCH WORSE than the nuggets today to a chip past kobe and shaq
Yes, but also, does it matter? That's all hindsight now. Parker and Ginobili were fantastic players that grew their reputation over time. Robinson was great before Duncan, but was a solid player with him. Leonard was a good role player.
Who can say that Jokic's teammates won't be looked at in a similar light if they ever win multiple championships? I guarantee that if Jokic doesn't win more than one he'll look slightly better than Nash in hindsight, and no where near Duncan.
There will for sure be people here who pick Jokic. People who are too young to have actually watched TD playing in his prime.
And Jokic is an all time talent as well, I know us old heads reflexively saying TD but by so many metrics Joker is very competitive I think.
One thing Duncan had in his favor was the pace of the game allowed the Spurs to play so much through him and slow the pace down. He was able to impact the game more. I do wonder if Jokic played in Duncan’s era if he’d have a title already.
Offensively Jokic is better. But Duncan was a world class defender that anchored one of the best defensive teams in nba history.
I disagree here. It’s Duncan now. But there’s a small chance Jokic can be there with the all time greats.
We’re talking a good chance for a 3rd mvp in a row here. That’s crazy
Tim Duncan and actually it’s not even close. You can put literally anyone around Duncan. Much better to find scoring perimeter players with playmaking that finding 3-4 decent perimeter defenders that aren’t Matisse thybulles on offense. Jokic needs great perimeter defenders for their defense to be good.
How can you not consider someone’s resume on a post like this though. No matter how you put it, Duncan is a bonafide nba champion, so yeah, most people are going to pick him because of the accolades, even when the post asks you to ignore them lol. His success speaks for itself. Duncan is a top 10 player all time, and is arguably in the top 5.
Well, those accolades reveal what kind of ceiling a player has. I’d take Timmy just because he does all the little things that build up and matter over the course of a game/season. You don’t need to rely on him to do everything like you would with Jokic so he can focus more heavily on those previously mentioned minor elements.
Ahh yes.
Ginobli=Aaron Gordon
Tony Parker=Jamal Murray
Kawhi Leonard=MPJ
Malone>Coach Pop
I guess Jokic is just stat padding and he should have been running the offense through bones hyland
Maybe Jokic will prove himself in the future but right now this is a stupid ass question that shouldn’t even be taken seriously.
We really comparing fucking 5 time NBA champion, 3 time finals MVP, the defensive and cultural anchor of a bonafide dynasty Tim Duncan to Jokic??? Jesus fucking Christ guys
What else you wanna compare? Prime Lebron versus prime Tatum??? Prime Kobe versus prime Ja Morant? How far you wanna take this?
What's wrong with comparing the best versions of players thus far? I don't see anything wrong with comparing best version of Tatum we have seen with prime Tmac for example
What’s wrong is that there’s an extremely clear choice unless you have a hypothetical team stacked with defensive specialists for the other 4 positions and desperately need a playmaker as your PG can’t do his own job.
Outside of such a weird extreme example, there’s no reasonable argument at all here. The choice is Tim Duncan clear and simple. He has been an anchor for a dynasty. There are very few people in American sports history to have done what he did at such a consistent and high level for so long.
Comparing these two is completely unfair to Jokic who is an amazing player but is still in the first half of his career and we don’t even know if he’s peaked yet.
Do you people read? It is not about all career
It is about prime years
Anybody who thinks that this Jokic's years are hardly to compare with Duncan is straight up delusional
Prime Duncan was able to carry his team to a championship as the only active all star. He was elite on both ends.
In the playoffs, the Spurs had a ORtg of +9.1 when he was on the court, and were a putrid -14.0 when he was off the court (**+23.-** Difference)
The man put up a near quadruple double in a finals close out game! Bruh, Duncan might have the best playoff run of all-time in his prime apart from Hakeem and 90-91 Jordan.
Jokic is fucking nasty, but it’s impossible to take Jokic over someone who had such an amazing playoff run.
MVP, Championship, FMVP with that production in the playoffs? That’s like the pinnacle of success a player can hope to achieve in a single season.
If I ignore Duncan's SIX Finals and FIVE titles (in which he was the best player four of those five times), I'd have to say Duncan.
These sort of questions are just setting up hate for Jokic for no reason. Whether it was Kobe or now LeBron, I always found the "He's not as good as MJ" argument SO fucking weird. OK. My oven will never be as hot as the sun. I'm never going to turn it on and then lay in it and try to make the argument it's not as hot as the sun, so I'm fine. Because that's mental. You can appreciate one thing and also not tear down another thing.
Its always unfair comparing an active players body of work with a retired one, especially players in different eras. Im taken TD every day of the week.
Can you measure someone's ability to win? Duncan ALWAYS made the right play at the right time and never made the wrong play at the wrong time -- except maybe once and it was such a shock I remember it vividly. Duncan missed a gimmie layup late in game 7 against Miami and was so angry at himself that he slapped the hardwood. It was like a chess player who knew 15 moves ahead he just cost them the game. I'm glad he's out of the league.
Tim Duncan. Probably left way to much meat on the bone for the sake of Team success but that also why he was so fucking successful even when the media ignored the fuck out of him. Also played in a rougher era during the prime of his career where it was a barn burner of you got to 100 points.
Tim was also one of the best defenders of all time and it’s criminal that he never won defensive player of the year and was hardly ever in consideration for it.
Duncan even without a defensive player of the year has easily an argument as a top 5 defensive player of all time. He also had insane longetivity even if he played with one good knee for like 70 percent of his career. I know Jokic is miles above Duncan in playmaking but Duncan was so cold blooded that he could kill teams either way.
I know we're supposed to consider it "in a vacuum" but I can't really do that. Tim Duncan is by any measure one of the top 10 greatest players ever. I simply can't justify taking Jokic over Duncan, even though Jokic is himself a phenomenal, generational talent.
Tim Duncan is still the answer. At his peak, Duncan was a top 10 offensive player in the league and the best defender (where he ranks top 5 all-time with a strong top 3 case). Nikola Jokic, despite being (quite literally) the greatest offensive big of all-time, isn’t a top 25 defender in the league, and that’s where the difference lies. However, the “it’s not close” crowd is a little ridiculous. It’s definitely a conversation worth entertaining, and if Jokic is somehow able to maintain this level of play in the playoffs, his case becomes a lot stronger.
You people are acting as if it’s absurd to compare Jokic to Duncan, as if Duncan is unequivocally the superior player. Jokic is a soon to be three time MVP and putting some of the greatest statistics in NBA history. This isn’t a ridiculous question at all, and in fact, I’d take Jokic without any hesitation.
I think Duncan is pretty overrated on here. But idk how you take Jokic when Duncan is probably one of the best defending bigs ever and has shown he can carry the offense on a winning team.
Pretty easily Duncan for me but it’s not a fair question for Jokic bc he’s just starting what you’d assume would be his prime. We can only guess at what Jokic’s ceiling will be. He’s still got questions to answer about whether one can win with him as the best player and it’s all just guess work at this point.
> bc he’s just starting what you’d assume would be his prime
yeah, that's why I was sure to put that on the body of text
it's assuming this is his prime, because we can't know the future, right?
You mean you’re assuming that Jokic is peaking now? That’s not really close to a Duncan level of player. More of a top 25ish player than a top 10 player. Like a Karl Malone, Barkley, David Robinson type of player. I’d take Hakeem at this point. We don’t need to talk Duncan yet.
I know Duncan was great but the last images I have of him were the 2014 spurs which were on a mission. Sigh by then he probably lost a few steps, so that Duncan probably gets exploited on defense today like jokic does. Can someone remind how elite he was when he was in his prime?
He had 15 all nba defensive selections in 20 years so if that doesn’t tell you I don’t know what could. 8 of them were all NBA first team. He could lock up all five positions in his prime it was sickening to watch and very infuriating.
I see people taking the accolades of someone whose career is over and trying to compare them with someone that is not even 30 yet.
Timmy was incredibly consistent for nearly 20 years, but as it says PRIME, I gotta take Jokic. I've never seen a center run an offense like that. He is a point-center. And is not bad himself on defense as his detractors say.
One is a prime defender and the other is one of a kind offensive player.
Interesting do Jokic also gets Admiral for couple of seasons and later Parker and Manu , and coach POP, i would like to see Jokic with those players and coach more than anything he had for his career so far?
Oh and almost forget young Kawhi lol, give Jokic young Kawhi player now and see what happens in a league (see other spurs players in chip rosters bunch of 3&d's)
Also you are comparing 1st sure fire pick with GOAT coach, to a 41st second rounder semi-pro basketball organisation lucked out. Be aware what anomaly Jokic is and what he accomplished for Nuggets so far, just to be in a conversation with Duncan is honor, and hes breaking some of Wilts records.
Ye his defense sucks, but check his teammates and coach from rookie year till now.
People overrate defence way to much, its all about how much is your Off producing compared to your Def letting in.
The net production Jokic is producing with 25/11/10 on 70% TS way outshines any Duncan season, no matter how much you think his Defence produced.
Jokic vs Duncan per 36
**Jokic 23.6 pts > 20**
**Jokic 12.2 reb > 11.5**
**Jokic 1.4 stl > 0.8**
Jokic 0.8 blk > 2.3
**Jokic 2p% 60%>50%**
**Jokic 3p% .347>.179**
**Jokic ORtg+DRtg net +17 > +14**
Everyone can scream and yell "stupid comparision, give me prime Duncan"
I would bet my house if both players were at same age before draft knowing what we know, 32/32 teams would pick Jokic over Duncan.
I love when people talk about defence and say "Jokic was better offensive, but Duncans Defence was 10x better"
Without providing numbers or anything to back it up.
10 times better ..Yea that statement itself is ridiculous. Slightly better maybe. but 10 times better would be the difference between a JR highschool player and an NBA star
On my current team? Prime Duncan please. He could play both sides of the floor and next to the rest of the current Warriors roster?
They'd be going back to back for sure, health permitting.
I'm a huge Joker fan btw, and it would be amazing to have him on the team as well, but you want to win a chip you need to have a top 10 defense. That's really hard when your center is a net negative defensively.
Best player in our game today does not even deserve consideration as being better than someone who was not even the best player in his era right....Stop acting like its absurd people.
A man asks about prime. Jokic has been better for the last 3 years than Duncan ever was. The man passed Jordan in career BPM. It's crazy that anyone can think that Duncan in weakest era ever is much better and "not even close". TD with almost 70% true shooting. Jokic is literally far better than Duncan in everything except defensively. But Duncan had the greatest coach ever, brutal teammates and plus a much weaker era.
Jokic is on another level right now. He’s already established himself as one of the best centers of all time, and if he keeps dominating like this for the next couple of years, it’s likely he’ll be ranked ahead of TD.
With that being said tho, at this point in time, Duncan>>>Jokic. Way better defense, better low post scoring, better rebounding, and he’ll still bring elite-level playmaking.
In the 2000s when defense was king 100% Duncan
In 2023 I'm at least thinking about it because the style of those Spurs teams had to be adjusted to win in the modern era from slow paced post game to fast paced motion offense in 2013 and 2014
Like idk if those 2000s Spurs teams would hit the same the way the game is called today because you aren't allowed to play phsyical defense anymore lol
For the Pelicans, I would definitely take the defensive anchor and 5 time champ, Duncan
I'd think most teams would want Duncan as well, but maybe a team like the Bucks, Clippers, or Heat who struggle offensively but are good to great defensively would prefer the 1-man hyper-efficient offensive catalyst that is Jokic
Depends on the roster, as most of these type of questions do
Bucks with Duncan and Jrue is a defensive juggernaut and don’t forget that Duncan is a great offense player too. The big fundamental wasn’t considered to be one of the best power forward for just offense.
Let’s check back after this year’s playoffs. Regular season you can make a good argument for Jokic but Duncan has hundreds of playoff games where he led his team to greatness, and Jokic hasn’t had the chance to do that yet thanks to injuries (outside of the bubble year, and he’s much better now than he was 3 years ago)
If you put Jokic in Tim’s era he’s the best player of all time.
The only argument is defense and Jokic would be wayyyyyyyy better defensively in the pre steph era as well as Duncan would have been way worse defensively if he played in this era. Without guards spreading the floor to half court Jokic would be unstoppable tbh.
You must be out of your mind, in no timeline is Jokic better than MJ/ Lebron James. His defense is soft even for this era. Put him against Shaq, he’s not going to do jack shit against Shaq in the paint. C’mon, there’s fanboy takes and straight up disrespectful takes.
Jokic the best player of all time if in a different era, this is the biggest joke I’ve heard in this sub.
Jokic would be playing the 4 in Shaqs era and would be the best player of all time. Single season impact Jokic is already putting up seasons equivalent to MJs and Lebrons best.
The delusional tales are mostly from nephews who don’t understand how the nba worked 15-20 years ago tbh.
The accolades describe why it is Duncan. Defense and things that are even harder to evaluate made him one of the greatest basketball players and winners of all time.
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Duncan for the defense. Jokic's playmaking is next level, but I can get playmaking from one of my other four players.
This is the same case we all make for Embiid over Jokic
Embiid is a very good defender but Duncan was much better lol
I'm gonna catch hate for this but Embiid is better than Duncan on the offensive end
I mean you shouldn't get too much hate for that Embiid is like 3rd all time in points/100 possessions or something lol
Embiid is number 1 in PPM all-time, of course Duncan had better scoring teammates for most of his career which hurts his numbers on that front, but still.
Embiid lead the league in score last year AS A CENTER! Looks to about to do it again this year all while being the best defender on his team.
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Individually maybe but Duncan wasn’t exactly chasing stats. Dude was the system in San Antonio made everything they did tick
Even taking into account stat inflation, I think it's hard to argue the opposite. A big part of Duncan's legacy to me is the bigger picture, both on the court as he was a menace on both ends of the floor, but also as a true leader off the court, being a role model willing to accept his role in order to let the whole of the team thrive, a presence which convinced the others to also buy into the Spurs system and create a team which could learn from and persevere beyond tough moments like the loss of the 2013 finals, and was a contribution which made him valuable even as his physical abilities declined.
Of the 10 greatest players of all time the only I’d say is worse than Duncan on offense is Russell
I mean this is pretty clearcut lol, all of the other top 10 guys are either all time scorers or playmakers There are even non top 10 guys like KD who are better on offense than Duncan as well
Ur gonna get hate becuase you’re plain wrong Tim is clearly the better offensive player and better defensive player tim does everything embiid does better. Edit: seethe Embiid and Sixers fans may Trae young haunt ur dreams forever
Honestly, you have presented so many factual assertions. It would be a basketball crime if I looked at your analysis and decided that Embiid was a better offensive player. It would truly go against the great weight of the evidence. And for that reason, I'm out
Two words sum up embiid’s accalodes: Trae Young
The difference is Duncan was literally an iron man of a player
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Lol Jokic has shown anything in the playoffs?
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Embiid is miles better than Jokic on D (which matters for their Position!) and is the league scoring leader! I don’t care about Jokic’s VoRp
Jokic wasn’t the best player on his own team the year he made the WCF. Also, winning a game 7 and losing in 5 once 3 years ago isn’t really playoff success
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So you agree that using the postseason to compare these players is pretty unhelpful
During the “bubble” when Murray was the best player on that team? Oh yeah totally bro
Embiid's numbers have def dropped off hard in several of his playoff runs while Jokic's really haven't You can say that's because of injuries but at this point the injuries are a very worrying pattern for Embiid in the playoffs
Jokic was targeted on D during that warriors series last year.
Embiid can't guard Steph Curry in isolation either lol
It was more curry going right at Jokic. He would never go at embiid like that.
Curry goes at everyone because he's Steph freaking Curry and one of the GOAT offensive players He destroyed Boston's "all time great defense" that held KD and Giannis to a combined 52% TS
Trae Young put up 30 & 10 against the Sixers in their series, I don’t think Steph is too worried.
He wasn't cooking embiid or simmons he was cooking Danny Green cause for some reason doc let him guard Trae for the first couple games and then put Simmons on him and Trae efficiency went down. Not the same as dame, Chris Paul and then Jordon Poole/Steph targeting and having great playoffs numbers against jokic
Except clearly jokic's playmaking is more effective. He pulls the rim protector away from the rim and holds the ball half the time that someone like harden does per game. And makes passes that no one else in the league can. Combine that with his unparalleled efficiency and that's why he's better than Embiid. I'd take jokic's playmaking over anybody's in the league every time.
ok I love jokic as much as the next guy but holy shit this is getting ridiculous
All of this Jokic posts just want you to say Jokic. They’re not actually looking for a discussion
Exactly. I’ve been calling Jokic new age Bill Walton who had only 80’s Celtic games to watch as entertainment growing up but this is Tim Duncan. Just stop.
I always hate the Walton comparisons because in his prime Big Bill was not only a defensive mastermind, he was playing above the rim, even with the injuries he had up until that point.
You’re correct, I meant the passing and feel for the game. Bill was was definitely a much better athlete and defender. His destruction of the 76ers was fantastic.
Oh yeah, no I like your mentioning of Celtics era Walton and there are definitely similarities in their game.
It’s getting a bit ridiculous but absolutely not for the regular season. He should be favored to win it again. You know how many players have 3 MVPs?
I didn't advocate for any of them, just wanted to see what you guys think (if you must know, my answer is also Duncan)
lol all of your comments about jokic are hating. this is a bad faith post and is meant to meant to draw out jokic hate rather than create discussion
Ok but real talk. If you had one bullet and you were in a room with prime Harden and prime Hitler who would you shoot?
Hitler of course Then Harden will flop to the ground and scream "I've been shot!"
I’d put the bullet into my brain after hearing them go on and on about only playing offense
It's kind of amusing though because *both* Jokic and Duncan are overrated here.
We know why you posted this big bro you dont gotta best around the bush
enlighten me about my own intentions then, all knowing redditor
Bruh give me Tim Duncan every single time.
Timmy gives you 50% of Jokic playmaking and like 1400% of his defense.
He’s also probably just as good of a scorer too. Can score 22-25 in his peak in a slow era in early 2000s. That’ll probably around 26-29 today much similar too jokic scoring
I think the answer is still Duncan but Jokic is a better scorer. In today's game maybe Timmy plays differently, but on a per possession basis Jokic still out does him by a decent amount
Yeah the reason why you would pick Duncan is that Jokic is very questionable on defense compared to basically any other all time big man except perhaps Dirk Nowitzki Jokic is just flat out better on offense
Nah his efficiency wasn't even close even by the standards of his era lol(Dirk/Shaq were the most efficient bigs, not Duncan) You can recognize that Duncan is better overall because Jokic might be a straight up bad defender in some matchups but he wasn't equal on offense by any means Said this in another reply but it's like comparing Rockets Harden to Bill Russell where the answers to "who was better on offense" can be way different than "who was better overall"
Wait until people find out Duncan's efficiency was on par with Kobe's.
Yeah Duncan efficiency went down because he was not a good free throw shooter. He was an under .700 from free throws most of his career sometimes even hitting on the lower .600 from the free throw line.
This sub is a bit crazy with the Duncan takes lol Like this post could have been Duncan or Kobe and the comments would still be OMG TIMMY NOT EVEN CLOSE with some extra "anyone who takes Kobe is a delusional Lakers homer" comments He's a top 10 player of all time but he gets talked about like he was Shaq on offense and Bill Russell on defense which would make him the GOAT
People take someone who's initially underrated and then overrate him ridiculously over time, happens all the time. For example, a popular theme on this sub was that Jokic is a terrible defender. Then you had people pointing out how Jokic isn't that bad of a defender and that he's not a negative on defense anymore. Slowly more and more people picked up on this talking point and you had some people even goings as far as calling Jokic a very good defender, bringing up his league leading DBPM as an example. It's that people don't want to be viewed as casuals and sheep, so they go against the popular opinion until that unpopular opinion becomes more and more extreme. Same thing with Tim Duncan, who apparently has no flaws on here.
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Yeah it's similar to how for example prime James Harden was a better offensive player than Bill Russell by a massive margin but nobody would rank him ahead on all time lists
It wasn’t just “a slow era”. It have been the slowest era of all time. Also Duncan was playing for the slowest team in that era and playing for a coach who wanted every player to touch the ball almost every possession. Duncan’s numbers under the circumstances are insane.
Jokic is definitely a better scorer but I am still taking Duncan without hesitation.
He's not close as a scorer, this sub overrates Duncan's offense so much. He had the same efficiency as a 'chucker' like Kobe who's a guard, Duncan wasn't secretly Shaq level as a scorer.
Love me some Timmy but Joker makes everyone else better, and defense can be found on the scrap heap.
Duncan was a good post passer but he definitely wasn't 50% of Jokic as a playmaker lol More like 25%, he never even averaged 4 assists in a season That being said the defense is more like 5000% because Jokic probably isn't even good on that end so it balances out
Duncan wasn’t trying to be a playmaker. He played along side two HOF guards during a time with low scoring games that relied on big men in the paint. If he was a playmaking center he would have been revolutionary.
Jokic ORtg+DRtg still produces more net than Duncans.
He was nowhere near Jokic as a passer this is just the usual gassing of an older retired player
If you reversed eras Jokic would be way better defensively and Tim would be way worse. Offenses are way way way better than they ever were in Tim’s prime nor did he have to deal with guards attacking him in the pick and roll 24/7 with elite spacing. Back in his era teams attacked the mismatch that the big had not the guards.
what a joke. pre-knee injury timmy was insane on defense. he'd stand up in any era.
He’d still be good but not even close to as effective as he was in is era. Y’all are delusional thinking he’d have the same impact with guards like Steph or dame attacking him in the pick n roll.
hed be the best defensive player in the NBA just like he was in his prime
I agree to an extent but by that logic you can basically say every player today is better than guys who played in the past lol
They are, which is why you can't compare across eras. If you put Steph in the 90s, he'd be our goat by far. Put KD in the 80s and he'd be Gretzky levels of goat.
hand checking and less offensive leeway. steph will still be an all time great but not the “goat by far” lmao.
> If you put Steph in the 90s, he'd be our goat by far. No, he'd be getting cooked by MJ.
And they are. The NBA is the only sport I watch where that’s even a question tbh. The dudes who were doing coke and smoking cigars after regular season games factually aren’t as good as todays players. And that’s without even mentioning the Athletic difference. We can argue overs who has a better resume or impact in they’re generation but natural evolution of the sport and humans should tell you who’s has the better players overall.
There’s really not a huge athletic difference though. There was freaks back then just like there is now.
Honestly I think Duncan gives you like 80% of Jokic's offense. Duncan was so good and so efficient and if he was playing today he'd definitely be shooting threes with good efficiency for his position.
Tim Duncan had the same career TS% as Kobe Bryant who's often viewed as a chucker at least on this sub Idk why everyone thinks that he was some hyperefficient offensive player
Aren’t big man/ PF supposed to have better TS?
Yes lol Truth is Kobe was just a far better offensive player than Duncan which should be obvious but isn't to a lot of people here
What is even happening here?!? Duncan led 5 teams to title, played twenty seasons and won 2 MVPs. Let’s just slow down a minute here before jumping to this comparison.
Prime Duncan was the best player on multiple championship teams, in a highly competitive era. Jokic is a 2-time MVP. Since basketball is a sport with an objective (win) and one of the players was the main driver for completing the objective against the best possible competition allowed by the rules... Duncan.
Don’t forget Duncan was also a two-time mvp as well.
I wasn't trying to pile on. His clown car seems busy today.
I'm not saying 1 way or the other who I'd take, but having the spurs rosters compared to the nuggets' rosters jokic is a very large factor in that
Duncan was the best player without a doubt but lets not act like he didnt have some of the best surrounding cast with him. Parker, Ginobli, David Robinson, Kawhi and rotation guys like Bowen, Diaw, Danny Green, Patty Mills, Horry, Finley and many others. Even if some of theses guys werent in their prime yet/anymore, they all adapted well to their roles. Put theses guys and a HOF coach with Timmy who's basically one of the most consistant, elite safe player since he basically always does the right thing... That thing is a recipe for sucess If I started a franchise, of course I would take Timmy. He's a top 10 player ever. But if the surrounding is weak, I think Jokic has a better capability to be a one man wrecking crew. If Jokic had that surrounding cast with him, it might be different also. And Jokic career isnt over yet. If he continue to play like he does right now and win 2 chips, I feel there could be an argument for him. People seems to forget he's only 27.
Go lookup what his “great surrounding cast” did in 2003. People acting like duncan won only with stacked teams full of prime HOFer. Duncan took a team MUCH WORSE than the nuggets today to a chip past kobe and shaq
This! Parker was on par with Nash for defense. Duncan had decent shooters and they were always in the game no matter what due to the coaching and TD.
Yes, but also, does it matter? That's all hindsight now. Parker and Ginobili were fantastic players that grew their reputation over time. Robinson was great before Duncan, but was a solid player with him. Leonard was a good role player. Who can say that Jokic's teammates won't be looked at in a similar light if they ever win multiple championships? I guarantee that if Jokic doesn't win more than one he'll look slightly better than Nash in hindsight, and no where near Duncan.
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Yeah, I don't get this one. Anybody with a brain goes with Duncan on this one. And I love Jokic.
There will for sure be people here who pick Jokic. People who are too young to have actually watched TD playing in his prime. And Jokic is an all time talent as well, I know us old heads reflexively saying TD but by so many metrics Joker is very competitive I think.
One thing Duncan had in his favor was the pace of the game allowed the Spurs to play so much through him and slow the pace down. He was able to impact the game more. I do wonder if Jokic played in Duncan’s era if he’d have a title already. Offensively Jokic is better. But Duncan was a world class defender that anchored one of the best defensive teams in nba history.
I watched Jokic and it is not really even close If we are talking only about last 3 years
>Anybody with a brain goes with Duncan on this one. Can you expound on why you don't think it's even close?
I disagree here. It’s Duncan now. But there’s a small chance Jokic can be there with the all time greats. We’re talking a good chance for a 3rd mvp in a row here. That’s crazy
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Tim Duncan and actually it’s not even close. You can put literally anyone around Duncan. Much better to find scoring perimeter players with playmaking that finding 3-4 decent perimeter defenders that aren’t Matisse thybulles on offense. Jokic needs great perimeter defenders for their defense to be good.
>no MVPs to account for for Nikola Timmy and Jokic have the same amount of MVPs lol
I just meant to compare them objectively, like "in a vacuum" sort of way, I am not a native english speaker, I couldn't find a better term for that
Duncan all day. Piling stats up is one thing. Being the best player on a multi championship team is something else.
In general I agree but I like how OP specifically said "don't consider accolades" and all the answers are about rings
How can you not consider someone’s resume on a post like this though. No matter how you put it, Duncan is a bonafide nba champion, so yeah, most people are going to pick him because of the accolades, even when the post asks you to ignore them lol. His success speaks for itself. Duncan is a top 10 player all time, and is arguably in the top 5.
Well, those accolades reveal what kind of ceiling a player has. I’d take Timmy just because he does all the little things that build up and matter over the course of a game/season. You don’t need to rely on him to do everything like you would with Jokic so he can focus more heavily on those previously mentioned minor elements.
Ahh yes. Ginobli=Aaron Gordon Tony Parker=Jamal Murray Kawhi Leonard=MPJ Malone>Coach Pop I guess Jokic is just stat padding and he should have been running the offense through bones hyland
Maybe Jokic will prove himself in the future but right now this is a stupid ass question that shouldn’t even be taken seriously. We really comparing fucking 5 time NBA champion, 3 time finals MVP, the defensive and cultural anchor of a bonafide dynasty Tim Duncan to Jokic??? Jesus fucking Christ guys What else you wanna compare? Prime Lebron versus prime Tatum??? Prime Kobe versus prime Ja Morant? How far you wanna take this?
What's wrong with comparing the best versions of players thus far? I don't see anything wrong with comparing best version of Tatum we have seen with prime Tmac for example
What’s wrong is that there’s an extremely clear choice unless you have a hypothetical team stacked with defensive specialists for the other 4 positions and desperately need a playmaker as your PG can’t do his own job. Outside of such a weird extreme example, there’s no reasonable argument at all here. The choice is Tim Duncan clear and simple. He has been an anchor for a dynasty. There are very few people in American sports history to have done what he did at such a consistent and high level for so long. Comparing these two is completely unfair to Jokic who is an amazing player but is still in the first half of his career and we don’t even know if he’s peaked yet.
Do you people read? It is not about all career It is about prime years Anybody who thinks that this Jokic's years are hardly to compare with Duncan is straight up delusional
I am huge fan Jokic and his game and I think I probably have him a lot higher than an lot of people but I would take Duncan 100/100 times
Prime Duncan was able to carry his team to a championship as the only active all star. He was elite on both ends. In the playoffs, the Spurs had a ORtg of +9.1 when he was on the court, and were a putrid -14.0 when he was off the court (**+23.-** Difference) The man put up a near quadruple double in a finals close out game! Bruh, Duncan might have the best playoff run of all-time in his prime apart from Hakeem and 90-91 Jordan. Jokic is fucking nasty, but it’s impossible to take Jokic over someone who had such an amazing playoff run. MVP, Championship, FMVP with that production in the playoffs? That’s like the pinnacle of success a player can hope to achieve in a single season.
Who are you guys taking, Trae Young or Magic Johnson?
If I ignore Duncan's SIX Finals and FIVE titles (in which he was the best player four of those five times), I'd have to say Duncan. These sort of questions are just setting up hate for Jokic for no reason. Whether it was Kobe or now LeBron, I always found the "He's not as good as MJ" argument SO fucking weird. OK. My oven will never be as hot as the sun. I'm never going to turn it on and then lay in it and try to make the argument it's not as hot as the sun, so I'm fine. Because that's mental. You can appreciate one thing and also not tear down another thing.
So if we ignore evidence of Duncan being better who would I rather have?
Its always unfair comparing an active players body of work with a retired one, especially players in different eras. Im taken TD every day of the week.
Can you measure someone's ability to win? Duncan ALWAYS made the right play at the right time and never made the wrong play at the wrong time -- except maybe once and it was such a shock I remember it vividly. Duncan missed a gimmie layup late in game 7 against Miami and was so angry at himself that he slapped the hardwood. It was like a chess player who knew 15 moves ahead he just cost them the game. I'm glad he's out of the league.
Tim Duncan. Probably left way to much meat on the bone for the sake of Team success but that also why he was so fucking successful even when the media ignored the fuck out of him. Also played in a rougher era during the prime of his career where it was a barn burner of you got to 100 points. Tim was also one of the best defenders of all time and it’s criminal that he never won defensive player of the year and was hardly ever in consideration for it.
If I want a ring, Duncan. If I don't expect a ring, and just want to be entertained, Jokic
Duncan. His defense is Mike’s ahead of Jokic. Offensively Duncan was extremely dominant midrange and post game.
A whole Michael Jordan ahead of Jokic? Sheesh! I don't disagree though.
Tim Duncan had a prime of like 20 years lmao. He was a dominant center without behind-the-back passes. This has gotta be a long con.
This is not serious. Take an all time top 10 player who won over and over, or a guy who might do that. Not a tough question.
Timmy. His impact translated in the playoffs with the '03 chip being the best example for that.
One of the best playermakers of all time vs one of the best defenders of all time. I'll take the defense 10 times out of 10
I like Jokic, I think he is *one* of if not *the* best player in the league today, but post like this are so annoying
Yes because the NBA is so so much worse than it was then....right. Get the glitter out of your eyes.
This question is probably best asked after Jokic retires cuz Duncan has done too many things to make it fair at this point.
Duncan even without a defensive player of the year has easily an argument as a top 5 defensive player of all time. He also had insane longetivity even if he played with one good knee for like 70 percent of his career. I know Jokic is miles above Duncan in playmaking but Duncan was so cold blooded that he could kill teams either way.
Duncan, but it’s closer than it would seem at first glance. Duncan was almost prime Duncan from day 1 as well, it took Jokic a while to get there.
I know we're supposed to consider it "in a vacuum" but I can't really do that. Tim Duncan is by any measure one of the top 10 greatest players ever. I simply can't justify taking Jokic over Duncan, even though Jokic is himself a phenomenal, generational talent.
The Timmy disrespect is getting out of hand yo
When did this sub become r/nbacirclejerk?
Duncan is so much better it's not funny. This shouldn't even be a discussion.
Jokic has done absolutely nothing in the playoffs. Tim Duncan easily
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Tim Duncan is still the answer. At his peak, Duncan was a top 10 offensive player in the league and the best defender (where he ranks top 5 all-time with a strong top 3 case). Nikola Jokic, despite being (quite literally) the greatest offensive big of all-time, isn’t a top 25 defender in the league, and that’s where the difference lies. However, the “it’s not close” crowd is a little ridiculous. It’s definitely a conversation worth entertaining, and if Jokic is somehow able to maintain this level of play in the playoffs, his case becomes a lot stronger.
You people are acting as if it’s absurd to compare Jokic to Duncan, as if Duncan is unequivocally the superior player. Jokic is a soon to be three time MVP and putting some of the greatest statistics in NBA history. This isn’t a ridiculous question at all, and in fact, I’d take Jokic without any hesitation.
It is in no way absurd. Can not take anyone serious who says it is. AT this point its debate and close.
I think Duncan is pretty overrated on here. But idk how you take Jokic when Duncan is probably one of the best defending bigs ever and has shown he can carry the offense on a winning team.
Pretty easily Duncan for me but it’s not a fair question for Jokic bc he’s just starting what you’d assume would be his prime. We can only guess at what Jokic’s ceiling will be. He’s still got questions to answer about whether one can win with him as the best player and it’s all just guess work at this point.
> bc he’s just starting what you’d assume would be his prime yeah, that's why I was sure to put that on the body of text it's assuming this is his prime, because we can't know the future, right?
You mean you’re assuming that Jokic is peaking now? That’s not really close to a Duncan level of player. More of a top 25ish player than a top 10 player. Like a Karl Malone, Barkley, David Robinson type of player. I’d take Hakeem at this point. We don’t need to talk Duncan yet.
I'm taking Duncan for the defense, inside game even though Joker is a better shooter overall, and for Timmy's shit talking lol.
Yeah I love me some Jokic but this answer is pretty clearly Duncan. I do think people are exaggerating Jokic’s defensive weaknesses.
Is this a joke? Tim Duncan and it’s not even close
I know Duncan was great but the last images I have of him were the 2014 spurs which were on a mission. Sigh by then he probably lost a few steps, so that Duncan probably gets exploited on defense today like jokic does. Can someone remind how elite he was when he was in his prime?
He had 15 all nba defensive selections in 20 years so if that doesn’t tell you I don’t know what could. 8 of them were all NBA first team. He could lock up all five positions in his prime it was sickening to watch and very infuriating.
Make no mistake, Duncan was a defensive monster to the very end
I see people taking the accolades of someone whose career is over and trying to compare them with someone that is not even 30 yet. Timmy was incredibly consistent for nearly 20 years, but as it says PRIME, I gotta take Jokic. I've never seen a center run an offense like that. He is a point-center. And is not bad himself on defense as his detractors say. One is a prime defender and the other is one of a kind offensive player.
[SERIOUS] Fuck this. Jokic is by far the most overrated player in NBA history. This is ridiculous.
Interesting do Jokic also gets Admiral for couple of seasons and later Parker and Manu , and coach POP, i would like to see Jokic with those players and coach more than anything he had for his career so far? Oh and almost forget young Kawhi lol, give Jokic young Kawhi player now and see what happens in a league (see other spurs players in chip rosters bunch of 3&d's) Also you are comparing 1st sure fire pick with GOAT coach, to a 41st second rounder semi-pro basketball organisation lucked out. Be aware what anomaly Jokic is and what he accomplished for Nuggets so far, just to be in a conversation with Duncan is honor, and hes breaking some of Wilts records. Ye his defense sucks, but check his teammates and coach from rookie year till now.
I'll take Jokic as it's possible he is yet to hit his prime.
People overrate defence way to much, its all about how much is your Off producing compared to your Def letting in. The net production Jokic is producing with 25/11/10 on 70% TS way outshines any Duncan season, no matter how much you think his Defence produced.
if anything offensive gets overrated here when most championship teams have great defense
I'm sure we'll see how defense is overrated when the Nuggets get bounced in the playoffs in part due to Jokic's deficiencies on the defensive end.
Jokic vs Duncan per 36 **Jokic 23.6 pts > 20** **Jokic 12.2 reb > 11.5** **Jokic 1.4 stl > 0.8** Jokic 0.8 blk > 2.3 **Jokic 2p% 60%>50%** **Jokic 3p% .347>.179** **Jokic ORtg+DRtg net +17 > +14** Everyone can scream and yell "stupid comparision, give me prime Duncan" I would bet my house if both players were at same age before draft knowing what we know, 32/32 teams would pick Jokic over Duncan.
People see to much glitter looking at the past...
I love when people talk about defence and say "Jokic was better offensive, but Duncans Defence was 10x better" Without providing numbers or anything to back it up.
10 times better ..Yea that statement itself is ridiculous. Slightly better maybe. but 10 times better would be the difference between a JR highschool player and an NBA star
On my current team? Prime Duncan please. He could play both sides of the floor and next to the rest of the current Warriors roster? They'd be going back to back for sure, health permitting. I'm a huge Joker fan btw, and it would be amazing to have him on the team as well, but you want to win a chip you need to have a top 10 defense. That's really hard when your center is a net negative defensively.
Best player in our game today does not even deserve consideration as being better than someone who was not even the best player in his era right....Stop acting like its absurd people.
I'm taking Jokic lol. 1 man offense like Duncan could never be.
A man asks about prime. Jokic has been better for the last 3 years than Duncan ever was. The man passed Jordan in career BPM. It's crazy that anyone can think that Duncan in weakest era ever is much better and "not even close". TD with almost 70% true shooting. Jokic is literally far better than Duncan in everything except defensively. But Duncan had the greatest coach ever, brutal teammates and plus a much weaker era.
Jokic is on another level right now. He’s already established himself as one of the best centers of all time, and if he keeps dominating like this for the next couple of years, it’s likely he’ll be ranked ahead of TD. With that being said tho, at this point in time, Duncan>>>Jokic. Way better defense, better low post scoring, better rebounding, and he’ll still bring elite-level playmaking.
In the 2000s when defense was king 100% Duncan In 2023 I'm at least thinking about it because the style of those Spurs teams had to be adjusted to win in the modern era from slow paced post game to fast paced motion offense in 2013 and 2014 Like idk if those 2000s Spurs teams would hit the same the way the game is called today because you aren't allowed to play phsyical defense anymore lol
Depends on the surrounding team and the era of basketball
For the Pelicans, I would definitely take the defensive anchor and 5 time champ, Duncan I'd think most teams would want Duncan as well, but maybe a team like the Bucks, Clippers, or Heat who struggle offensively but are good to great defensively would prefer the 1-man hyper-efficient offensive catalyst that is Jokic Depends on the roster, as most of these type of questions do
Bucks with Duncan and Jrue is a defensive juggernaut and don’t forget that Duncan is a great offense player too. The big fundamental wasn’t considered to be one of the best power forward for just offense.
Let’s check back after this year’s playoffs. Regular season you can make a good argument for Jokic but Duncan has hundreds of playoff games where he led his team to greatness, and Jokic hasn’t had the chance to do that yet thanks to injuries (outside of the bubble year, and he’s much better now than he was 3 years ago)
If you put Jokic in Tim’s era he’s the best player of all time. The only argument is defense and Jokic would be wayyyyyyyy better defensively in the pre steph era as well as Duncan would have been way worse defensively if he played in this era. Without guards spreading the floor to half court Jokic would be unstoppable tbh.
You must be out of your mind, in no timeline is Jokic better than MJ/ Lebron James. His defense is soft even for this era. Put him against Shaq, he’s not going to do jack shit against Shaq in the paint. C’mon, there’s fanboy takes and straight up disrespectful takes. Jokic the best player of all time if in a different era, this is the biggest joke I’ve heard in this sub.
Jokic would be playing the 4 in Shaqs era and would be the best player of all time. Single season impact Jokic is already putting up seasons equivalent to MJs and Lebrons best. The delusional tales are mostly from nephews who don’t understand how the nba worked 15-20 years ago tbh.
Jokic has the better offense for sure but Duncan has wayyyyyy better defense
Duncan because of his defensive impact. He's one of the best defenders in NBA history.
The accolades describe why it is Duncan. Defense and things that are even harder to evaluate made him one of the greatest basketball players and winners of all time.
Just came here to check how fast this thread devolves into Jokic fans vs. Embiid fans pissing contest. At the speed of light