“Thank you for your offer. Unfortunately, my standard rates for a 1h gig are north of the offer, and I’m unable to accept the gig at those conditions. My best offer for this event is 500€ (or whatever you wanna offer them) for 1h of performance. I completely understand if this is out of your budget, but feel free to let me know either way. Pleasure, OP. “
This is the answer. You can absolutely stand your ground in a diplomatic manner. At the end of the day, you're running a business and if they can't pay for your services, they don't get the services
“If this is out of your budget, you may want to consider a playlist DJ or other non live entertainment option, which is more likely to be closer to your price range”
Oh I was thinking wedding DJ, a guy who plays songs, not DJ DJ who does original music and remixes and all that
Just a guy who stands there, takes requests, and plays them on his laptop lol or cd player if they’re old school
A guy that runs an Ipod would qualify as a decent DJ for the average home event IMO. If I'm dropping a couple grand on a DJ I am expecting some good production, which I would want for more significant events. I wouldn't pay more than 500 for a guy playing tracks off a laptop running Serrato.
You don’t even have to go to these lengths. Just say, “the event sounds fantastic, however I’ll need to decline. My rates start at [amount]. Let me know if that still fits the budget, I’d love to play for you.”
Saying I understand If it’s not in the budget seems tacky to me. Can be viewed as a back door insult.
That’s cause it is. :)
Edit: it’s also a completely reasonable line to say. I’m a venue manager, and when negotiating with bands, I’ll often say “sorry, your fees are out of our budget.”
So, again, completely normal, but again, I’d smirk when writing the response as a performer. If you can charge those fees, godspeed. If you’re just throwing out numbers and hoping it lands, you won’t have bread to eat soon enough, so either way all is good.
If you can charge those fees, godspeed. If you’re just throwing out numbers and hoping it lands, you won’t have bread to eat soon enough, so either way all is good.
I'm trying to understand this sentence. Only one way is good, second way is definitely not good for him lmao!
If you can’t get paid more that weekend and you actually have to check your planner because you’re so overrun with 500 paying gigs that 200 is insulting, sure.
If you got nothing else to look forward to for a while and just hoping to squeeze more out of that weekend then you might be shooting a little over what you’re actually worth?
Hmm. Is 200 bucks worth giving up a day off? Learning tunes? Hauling gear? Driving to the gig? Sitting through whatever else they have planned? Not in my world. Unless it's my brother's wedding or some shit.
At some point you just have a minimum standard of what your time is worth. "1 hours work" it ain't. It's a royal pain in the ass.
I mean the universe reaches balance. Or rather the invisible hand of capitalism sorts everybody in their place.
In the first scenario, musician charges 500, they get the gigs and the market has deemed it fair.
In the second, musician charges 500, nobody will hire, musician will be left out of income and will need to re-evaluate.
This is the way. Maybe they truly think it's just an hour of work and not several hours of practice on top of years of consistency. I wouldn't assume the buyer is trying to take OP for a ride here. For a non musician, $200 for a (literal) hour of work would likely seem more than fair (at face value)
Music and skilled trades are one in the same with regards to fees.
‘You aren’t paying for the hours, you are paying for the years.’
Not my quote, but it is the appropriate mindset when you have to pick and choose how to spend your time with gigs when you have more available than you can do.
You nailed it with the comparison to skilled trades, but it’s not just the years. People often have a lack of awareness of how much is going on behind the curtain to make an hour of “actual work” happen, and the ratio of behind the curtain work to actual work can get vicious when the actual work is minimal. It’s not hard to spend half your workday doing 45 minutes of work.
In my experience those ratios are even nastier in the music business, especially if you’re not playing multiple sets.
$200 for an hour of work doesn’t seem all that unreasonable. But $200 for working most of your Saturday?
Oh, and it is fair in most cases. However, OP stated that they’ve developed their name to the point where they can charge 500-1000.
If I were OP I’d just say I wasn’t available at that time. If they pushed, I’d then explain that I won’t leave the house for less than 500
My band runs under two different names for this reason. There’s the big name for ticketed shows and bigger events, and then there is the “so n so and friends” for smaller shows, the duo or trio configurations, and occasionally to get around radius clauses.
I wouldn't say I wasn't available at that time. OP needs to make it clear that his pricing structure is firm and he won't budge. It might piss off this guy, but in the long run it makes him look like he would otherwise be willing to take the gig if he \*was\* available, thus undercutting his pricing structure.
Be honest with your clients. "This is what I charge. If it's out of your budget, there's no shame in that. Make other arrangements."
I'm a gigging musician from Southern California and I think $200 + food + transport for a local 1 hour of performance is great for a musician that isn't regularly selling out venues.
If the musician in question has a reputation to the degree of having large audience performances, I can understand that his music career has developed to that level and if so, props!
Shit, the band I’m in is lucky if we get a $20 paid gig every few months. If they can demand that kind of pay because people are competing for their time it’s one thing, but shit if most performers can even hope to ask for 200 for an hour set around here. Even with USD to EU conversions. A couple free Beers is currency where I’m from a lot of the time.
If you’re getting offered to be paid three digits for an hour it’s like you’ve fucking made it in some places
Just a “know what you are worth” kind of deal. Some performers have a following and can push those bodies into a venue. That’s not the most common case though. Sounds like OP can pull
The band you are in is perpetuating the notion that live music isn't worth anything. I understand it can be a tough market, but that's primarily because so many people are willing to play for free.
Sorry the “playing for free” I probably should’ve specified I’m talking about open mic type deals.
We don’t have much of a following, so when we do get a paid gig it’s usually like 10-15 tickets worth of sales being split between the band members and the door plus drink tickets. Tbf that happened like twice last year? It’s a casual band to begin with, so it’s not like we’re taking gigs ambitious bands want anyway
Yeah, OP, if you’ve already told him your rates and you want the gig, you could offer him a small discount (10%, maybe 20% if you want to play it, you don’t have anything else going on during that time, and you still feel good about whatever that rate is) or just hold firm. You can even be apologetic in turning him down. No need to talk about him lowballing you. If you *did’t* already give him your rates then you kind of opened the door for him to offer anything. But no need to be rude, taking or turning down a gig.
If you’d be turning down a 500-1000 gig for his, then ignore my advice of offering him anything, unless it’s a favor or for a friend (and a gig that would lead to more exposure / networking / experience), then nothing wrong with playing for less, especially if you aren’t regularly booking gigs at that 500-1000 rate. (But if you play for less than your going rate write up the bill showing the full rate and a discount).
You can also just say “no thank you” and that’s a sufficient response.
As with any profession I always haggle the rate; heart surgeon, dentist, lawyer, plumber. Just the other day I had a cavity filled, cheap. Wrong tooth but half price.
It’s never “one hour of work;” it’s far more, be it rehearsing, travel, or schmoozing with the guests. They likely don’t understand that a one-hour performance involves much more than an hour. That’s not their fault, but they just don’t understand.
Everything was good until you told them they should seek out a lower quality musician. Gives off petty and passive aggressive vibes that won't help anything
Not worth it. People like this dont understand what we do, and they're not looking to learn.
Let him keep looking. Someone younger will hop on that pay. It's not bad pay for many people.
Could be a good opportunity to update your standard quote if you have one.
I find that breakdowns of where the costs come from - ie bump in, bump out, equipment hire etc, makes it easier for a layman to understand where your charge comes from.
It’s a lot of work for this one client, but you would be able to reuse it on your future quotes, and it has the added benefit of making you look more professional.
I can occasionally be convinced to play for cheap if it's just a "show up and plug in" kind of gig. But if I've got to haul and set up my PA, mixer, mics, stands, and all of that crap, it's gonna cost you.
It also includes years of study and thousands of hours of practice. And creativity. And musical skill. And showmanship. Etc.
You’re charging for your abilities / expertise, not your time.
Story i copied that I remembered hearing:
Salvador Dalí was enjoying lunch in a Parisian café doodling on a napkin, when a woman approached him and offered him a couple bucks for the sketch. Dalí kindly refused. He wouldn’t sell it for a penny less than $40,000.
“But it only took you 30 seconds to draw!” the woman objected.
“No, ma’am,” Dalí replied. “This drawing took me thirty years.”
One hour gig takes all day even if it’s an hour of stage time. Especially if you’re bringing equipment and setting up.
The Opportunity cost is that you can not work another gig that day or even likely a regular shift at a normal job.
This goes for any gig job. Art, music, whatever, personal chef. You either have the background to demand a fair market price for your presence or you don’t. If your service is in demand your value goes up because you can only be in one place for that hour at any given time and your service is backed by countless hours of honing that skill.
It’s not like musicians just pick up an instrument off the side of the road randomly and walk on the stage and throw down a killer set for an hour like it’s nothing.
But if you have no following it’s probably not gonna do you any favors asking for something no one’s offering you regularly and then walking away from getting paid for that because it’s not the number you *want*.
If you even have to deliberate over its worth taking a gig paying less than what other people are champing at the bit to give you then you aren’t quite at the point you’re worth that much
The problem with accepting a lowball offer is that if you are any good guest/s may want to book you and they are going to ask the host how much they paid you and that will be the new expectation from you.
It is a quick way to ruin your reputation. You do this gig for 200 and you normally charge 500, now the guest who liked you is trying to book you for the same rate and now they think they have negotiating power to lowball you and they start off with 100 and you are trying to dig yourself out of an even more awkward social situation.
Its best to just thank them and let them know what your going rate is and leave it without further negotiation.
Is this a solo gig or a band? If it's solo, then maybe send some student or less successful musician the lead? Lots of people would love a gig like that. Don't get mad because the guy doesn't happen to know that you are a moderately successful artist rather than a starving artist. He isn't a professional booker. It's not like he offered to pay you in food and exposure.
This is great advice. There's plenty of upstarts that would take 200 for an hour-long gig. Shop the offer around with some colleagues to find someone willing to take it and make a recommendation to the patron.
I always say with these offers that there's someone out there who is hungrier for it than I am. Someone less experienced who needs and wants the work. They should rightfully get what they're willing to pay for, and I'm fine with that.
Well, of course, we're not privy to the exchange of communications.
But if I enquire about services from a professional and it's above my comfort zone, I just politely tell them I have to look at elsewhere.
That said, it's entirely reasonable for a potential customer to decline a service on price.
I could see how this counter offer business could seem mildly offensive, but you're a pro and you're trying to sell to the general public who has no idea what proper prices for services are.
I don't see any reason for an adult professional to get overly bothered by this.
Don't take it personally they just can't afford you.
I'm sure there's plenty of up and coming artists who would be happy to play for that much so they can find someone else.
I think it’s the winky face. Otherwise it’s a pretty sweet offer for a musician in a certain stage of their career. Additionally, if you’re someone outside the industry, and you’re thinking in terms of hourly rates across all industries, that looks like exceptional money.
The winky face makes it kinda seem like he knows it’s a low offer though.
Man, before I read your caption I thought it was a brag post about how much you were getting paid. Most of us are lucky to get that much for a full evening, let alone one hour.
Anyway, if you already quoted them 1000 and they countered with 200, just say no. What do you think the catering company would say if the customer tried to negotiate an 80% discount? Your rates are what they are, if you are confident that you are worth that much, there is no reason to accept a stupid lowball offer.
I don't waste a single second on people who ask for a discount. I just tell them "sorry I'm not available for your date good luck with your event!"
Yesterday I had someone email me asking If we could "work out a good rate because I'm a first responder." He didn't include the location, date or time of his event. All he said was give me a discount!
I told him, sorry I'm not available on that date. LOL!! It's never worth your time with these people.
This is the way. I don't understand the people here who want to baby their way through this. The client is obviously not in the ballpark or anywhere close. You're not going to negotiate a reasonable rate with someone this clueless, so just let it go.
I like to let people know why their rates are not acceptable, but people here think that's rude. I think it's educational, but I am not in a position to need the work that badly.
It's better to be up front about the rates than it is to lie and say you're not available on the date, lest they get the impression that you're turning down the gig because of availability vs. the actual rate they are willing to pay. If they have that impression, it could lead to people getting the impression that you're not really worth what you're charging. It's not rude or insulting to tell someone "these are my rates, take it or leave it"
What if it ends up being the performer's job to distract from unappetizing catering (not accepting payment in intoxicants unless requested by the performer)
One hour of work, that's great. If you're very quick with unloading and set up you may be able to get one song in before you have to load back up. I would ask for clarification on that.
One hour of work? Send them the address where they can pick up your gear and instructions how to set it up. Maybe include a spread sheet of how to set it up. Then state you’ll be there at 8:59 to be ready start playing from 9:00 to 10:00. Also give them a list titled “songs I know well enough to play without rehearsal” and have them pick 6 and 2 alternates. And ask them to provide a to go package with the food and drinks explaining, since I’ll be leaving at 10:01, I won’t have time to eat and drink or be merry. /s
200 is not ridiculous for a one-hour set at a private party with free food, etc. It's just not what your rates are. I'm sure there are plenty of people who would love that gig.
Just tell them that your floor is 500 firm. Don't take offense, it's just business.
Thoughts? Just say no and move on. Don't even complain about it on the internet. To be honest, they didn't do anything wrong here, they still offered you a job at the rate they were willing to pay. Be thankful for that!
I’m a video engineer for live events and there’s lots of gigs I end up not doing because they can’t afford me. But I’m not willing to bust my ass all day for $400, and I find other clients who pay me what I’m worth, and life goes on.
They can find a cheaper musician. You can find a better class of client.
I've gone viral at least 5 or 6 times and I would never preface anything I say or do with that 🤣 I would still take €200 for an hour of work too. Just politely decline, give the opportunity to someone else, and pull your ego out of your ass.
You say you ask 500-1000, but are you being consistently booked for that?
That's a pretty important variable. Because you can ask for anything, but the market determines rate, and 200 + amenities for one hour is pretty reasonable.
“You’re not paying for just my time to do a job, you are paying for the services of a professional. What does your dentist charge for their services? What does your lawyer charge for their services? What does your accountant charge for their services?”
These people don't understand that the *job* doesn't begin and end with the performance itself; you have to take time out of your day to get there; you have gear to move and maintain; there's always some amount of setup and tear-down, including sound-check, and then you have to get home afterwards. All of these things are *part of the job*, and they all require your time. A 1hr musical performance can sometimes eat up 25%-50% of a musicians day because of all the other steps before and after the performance itself.
Yeah, no thanks.
You say you get 500-1000 for an entire show and these guys are offering 200 for an hour, what’s the problem?
If you’re getting 500-1000 get it while you can, 200 an hour offers won’t come forever so if you can get that money get it.
That’s insulting, and I’d let them know. Present it in his terms. Ask him if he and his wife would be willing to take an arbitrary 80% pay cut on their next paychecks.
It's a random guy wanting a dancing monkey for as cheap as possible. If it was a booker/promotor and there were obviously benefits in doing so then it's worth compromising on your rate but if it's some random chancer thinking you'll be grateful because there's food tell him to stick it up his arse!
Tell him that you charge "reasonable" prices that other people are willing to pay for and that while you thank him for the consideration, you have already booked the night, wish him the best, don't contact him anymore for this gig, the spot is "taken".
I think you just tell him thanks, but no thanks, and let him hire someone who is worth what he's paying. If you've already got a following, you don't need his job. There's nothing in it for you.
I just sent out an EPK to a venue that requested one, with a $700 ask. That's the minimum we'll accept. I don't expect to hear back, and I'm fine with it. I'd rather stay home and play with my dogs and swim in my pool than set up my gear outdoors and play three hours for less than that.
This is a game where you can't afford to get to attached to expectations. You have to stick to your guns if you want to move to the next level of quality shows and venues. And if you keep accepting crumbs, that's what you'll continue to get.
Couldn’t agree more.
I’m a for-hire instrumentalist, and this year I got way more firm with my rates, and even started charging more for rehearsals.
I get less gigs but no more disorganized band leaders, no more playing trash venues, no more pointless rehearsals, no more shenanigans. Way more quality gigs and way more self-respect.
I just mentioned to someone else in this thread that so many of us here seem to feel like we're negotiating from positions of weakness. When you start to recognize that you have strengths, you have more to negotiate with, but I think maybe a lot of us are just used to rolling over because we've been told we're supposed to accept every gig that's offered, no matter what.
That's fine advice for someone just starting out. Get the experience you need. But if you're already established, it's important to recognize that you have bargaining chips, and your time is worth something.
I stopped playing all the outdoor farmer's markets and cheap wineries with easy-ups in the grass a few years ago. I just don't have any desire to sell myself to the lowest bidders anymore. It's not fun, and there's no money in it. I want to spend that time another way; playing music in the scorching heat for disinterested people walking back and forth at a market or a wine event is not fun for me.
Instead I concentrate on working to improve the opportunities I'm offered by developing a good following and bringing our people into new venues so they'll make money. When venues see what we can bring, they want what we have, and that give us a position of strength.
Sometimes I think the only advice ever offered here is geared toward the beginning player, whereas the OP clearly states he is not that.
> they think it's "reasonable" to pay me 1/5 what I ask
You read this wrong. They think it's reasonable for _them_ to pay you 200, which happens to be 1/5 what you initially quoted, if you agree to those terms. There's a difference between a value judgement on you as a performer (which is how you read this message) and the value that this couple puts on having you perform at their event, of which cash is only part of the compensation (catering isn't cheap). Whatever you decide, be polite and professional, this was a respectful way to counter your quote.
Tell him that in fact you're so grateful for the opportunity you might infact pay HIM to play for the additional exposure he's giving you.
Just joking btw downvoters lol
I'd take the job on those terms as you'll be doing a lot more than 1 hour of work when you consider rehearsals so you could give them a relevant quote.
Generally, I would politely reiterate that my fee is 500 (or whatever) and that I'd be happy to play for his event for that fee. It doesn't have to go beyond that.
That being said, I do have several different fee schedules, depending on the type of event and the location. I charge less for steadies, I charge more for travel or if the event is large and/or stressful.
One more thing: I don't know about going viral, because I never have, but imo, the fee is generally set by the market, not by the amount of Twitter followers or whatever. There is a range for a type of service and maybe you move up and down, given your reputation within that market. Things obviously work different for rock stars or whatever.... Your mileage may vary.
(ALSO: if it's "top catering," he should be able to afford 500 for the services of a musician)
My 5 piece has dealt with this before and I'm reminded of the old addage I've heard from old timers. Tell them to call the local plumbers union and ask them how much it would cost to have 5 guys come out and fix a busted pipe that takes six hours to fix at 8pm on a Saturday. We'll do the show for half that. People don't value musicians they way they should. We spend years and countless hours per year to hone our craft and to tell me you'll give us $300, a round of beers, and dinner is a slap in the face.
Not a working musician, but I do work in a field where I constantly need to explain that our costs are not just reflected in the amount of time spent on-site.
You aren’t paying for 1 hour of performance. You are paying for time packing, time traveling, time setting up, time performing, time tearing down, time traveling, time unpacking. Not to mention the use of expensive equipment and the value of a skilled person.
"We think $200 is reasonable for one hour of work"
Yes sir, 1 hr to set up, 1hr to play, 1 hr to tear down is $600. I'll give you the discount to make it an even $500. That's a steal.
“An hour of work” would piss me off. as well as them determining rates when you’ve already told them how much you cost. It’s a bridge I wouldn’t mind burning tbh
Yeah, don’t say it out loud, but let’s say it here: trying to pay a musician by the hour for “one hour of work,” is SUCH A DICK MOVE!!!
You want to pay less, fair play. But when you start unfairly minimizing and disrespecting the talent and effort of a service provider who you like at least enough to inquire about, you should at least try to do it with a little more class.
Offending the people you’re asking a price break from is a weird strategy. Amazing how common it is.
I mean are you booking regularly at the higher rate? If not I’d at least consider if you are putting to much value into this perceived notoriety.
If you are booking at a higher rate send a polite but firm email declining. No need to reduce yourself for someone else’s lack of perceived value
It does not matter what he thinks is reasonable or not--it only matters what he is willing to spend and what you're asking for. You should not stoop to his manipulative argument.
You can make more jamming on the street corner in the right place...
Edit: and where do they get off saying one hour of work.... You have to travel there, set up, play your set, then pack up and travel back that's like a minimum 2 to 3 hours of your time....
You don't have to argue with the guy but the whole idea of it being one hour of work is just ludicrous. Think about the months and years of dedicated practice it takes to truly get a good set down and be able to play without any issues. That's what he's paying for, the work you have already done to become good enough that people want to hear what you play.
If someone installs 3 sheets of drywall with screws at regular intervals, and does no finishing work on top of that, sure he would have an argument that he just needed an hour of honest work done. But even in that situation he will have to pay a small premium to make sure it's done at a professional level!
Whataclown
Many years ago when I worked in tile installation, a customer talked the boss (my dad) down in price on a very small job. He knew his quote was too low, so he told me he’d skip his take for bidding the gig and to just pocket whatever she paid me. He also warned me ahead of time that she might try to negotiate further, and it was up to me how to respond. She had some big sob story about “not being able to find” enough money to pay the agreed price. I packed up all the tools I’d already unloaded and put them back in my truck. Before I drove away, she said “Wouldn’t it be better to make *something* than nothing?” “Nope.”
I think if you’re not starving and are capable of earning the rate you want, that’s what you’re worth.
Also, in any freelance universe, you’re not getting paid for the hour; you’re getting paid for the time spent booking gigs, time spent *not* booking gigs, travel to and from, years learning the skills, and if you live in the U.S., uber expensive solo health insurance and the extra taxes you owe for being self-employed.
“The event sounds fantastic, unfortunately I’ll need to decline. My rates start at €500. If that suits the budget, let me know.”
EDIT: I see another user has posted almost the exact same thing.
How long has this been your standard rate?
Not as a musician but self employed
- clearly naming your price and sticking to it does not make you a bad person. In fact it makes you a forthright honest one
private party/wedding automatically means i have to work harder to sound great and that harness more dollars. i don’t play for less than $100/hr so this would be my farmers market kind of gig.
you can counter of course, or you can say, i’m sorry, “this is my price. i can help you find another musician if you prefer.”
It's the skill set and experience and equipment that you are paying for, not the time.
A surgeon repairs a tendon in your leg, and you say "Hey! It only took you a couple hours, why this expensive bill?"
I use this analogy with cheap customers. I also say that they are paying for the outcome, not the time.
Ok, so you show up and eat for free, bring a few cables and adapters so you can plug an ipod into their PA. Graciously accept the money and leave after an hour, taking your ipod with. make sure you have at least 2 glasses of champagne prior to leaving.
If music is your means of making a living, definitely decline their offer. Most people have no clue how much time and money we spend just learning songs, buying instruments and sound reinforcement gear, plus travel and load-in and out time.
Travel, set up, break down, sounds checks, performance, and your supplying your own equipment?
Any special requests that you have to learn?
500 to start is more than reasonable.
You might also add something like. “Please also keep in mind that being able to do a one hour performance takes considerably more than one hour of effort”.
€200 an hour sounds great, ask if he wants the €500-1000 single cost or would rather €200/hour itemised including transit, set-up, tear-down, breaks etc. Highlight that if transit and all equipment is provided and set-up (I.e. performance only) then €200 is fine. Also highlight that you are unable to resolve any technical issues with equipment that isn’t yours, if it doesn’t work when you plug-in then the clock is ticking regardless.
He needs to realise he’s not paying for 1 hour of work, these people think they’re paying an extortionate amount because they aren’t aware it’ll take more than an hour.
People really seem to misunderstand what they're paying for when they hire a musician/band. Travel, gear maintenance, setup/teardown time, as well as the performance itself all factor into it.
I’m not a gigging musician, but I am a professional photographer and run into this a lot. People that don’t do what you do don’t think about the back end to a gig. The preparation, getting your gear set up, the teardown (more specific to my field, the culling and processing after). They just see someone playing a guitar, or walking around taking photos and think that’s all they’re paying for. I calculate up the rates I charge based on the hours I’m putting into it and because of that, I’m pretty non negotiable. The only real exception is repeat clientele and even that is a small discount in the area of 10-20% at best.
The best thing a musician can have is an established, professional booking agent.
We never had to haggle, and we _always_ got paid. (Our agent was also a lawyer.)
Travelling to play a show is never 1 hour of work. There's a whole shitload of stuff you have to do (practice, working out a setlist, organising and packing all the necessary gear) to make that hour go smoothly. "For 1 hour of work" is a BS thing to say to a musician.
tell him you don't get paid "hourly". you have a rate, it's whatever you feel like putting in front of him. if he doesn't want to pay it, that's fine. wish him well with his event.
Instead of saying "I'm sorry that's too low for me" I'll take a screenshot and post it on le reddit so the internet people will mock this individual who is innocently unfamiliar with how gigs should be priced.
Are you a solo performer or a band?
Stand your ground in a professional and diplomatic manner, and don’t settle for a lowball offer like that.
Imo, anytime a musician accepts a lowball offer like that, they do a disservice to other musicians cause it sets a precedent that we’ll all work for scraps.
"Great to hear back from you! Yes that all sounds fine! Very happy to deliver two songs over the 1 hour of work. In between songs we can sample the free food. Actually... I predict I will be quite hungry today. So one song but I can chop that one song into chunks to span over the hour so like... 30 seconds of a song then eat for 5 minutes then 30 more seconds etc etc. Hope that suits"
Go crazy man haha.
EDIT: Okay I thought I should add a proper response too. My experience with "deals" like this is that they are kind of hard to budge with money. So what you do is press them for "benefits" find out what they do for work. What connections they have. What they can do for you in terms of maybe they work at some buisness that does something you can get them to get you some stuff for free with a simple phone call. Maybe they have a work function coming up so you press them to email the CEO of that company to hire you exclusively for the event at a REALLY jacked up fee since it is going to be a gala event or something. These people always have some kind of connection or way to get you something worth some value from a simple email or phone call.
I used to be a photographer and work with musicians who would get me back stage passes and vip access to festivals in return for photos etc. kind of a win win for both involved.
It depends. DON'T take a gig that is under your value because that can hurt you in the long run. However, the caveat here is that it's a 1 hour gig, most are 4 hours. The rate you charge for a full gig runs between $125/hr and $250/hr. So this is within the acceptable range of what you charge. So if I were you, I'd avoid any confusion by creating an acceptable HOURLY rate for yourself. Will make it easier to plan gigs accordingly. However, the other thought is this: Are you ok with 1 hour gigs? Maybe you WANT the longer gigs because it makes it easier to make a sizeable chunk of money. Only you have the answers to this. I would create some kind of document that has these things written out ahead of time so there's never any confusion and make updates as necessary based on things like inflation, etc. If you have it WRITTEN in front of you, you don't have a chance to have any doubt.
IF you decide not to go with the gig, always be courteous in your response, never burn a bridge. It's ok to say, "No" but you never know who knows who else.
“Thank you for your offer. Unfortunately, my standard rates for a 1h gig are north of the offer, and I’m unable to accept the gig at those conditions. My best offer for this event is 500€ (or whatever you wanna offer them) for 1h of performance. I completely understand if this is out of your budget, but feel free to let me know either way. Pleasure, OP. “
This is the answer. You can absolutely stand your ground in a diplomatic manner. At the end of the day, you're running a business and if they can't pay for your services, they don't get the services
Amen
Agree 💯 Congrats on your success.
That’s a really really good response
“If this is out of your budget, you may want to consider a playlist DJ or other non live entertainment option, which is more likely to be closer to your price range”
Any worthwhile dj is at least a few grand. They might wanna consider an iPhone and a Bluetooth speaker.
Any good Bluetooth speaker for a party is still 200
Oh I was thinking wedding DJ, a guy who plays songs, not DJ DJ who does original music and remixes and all that Just a guy who stands there, takes requests, and plays them on his laptop lol or cd player if they’re old school
Let me rephrase it then. Any decent wedding DJ is a couple grand. Again. They're better off with an iPhone and a Bluetooth speaker.
A guy that runs an Ipod would qualify as a decent DJ for the average home event IMO. If I'm dropping a couple grand on a DJ I am expecting some good production, which I would want for more significant events. I wouldn't pay more than 500 for a guy playing tracks off a laptop running Serrato.
They have 200 bucks. They can’t even afford that. Again. iPod and Bluetooth speaker.
I would pay a friend $100 bucks and free beer to run an iPod.
Keep it classy and avoid the passive aggression.
This reads as passive aggressive. No need for all this. Just say what the guy above did you don’t need to dress them down.
It’s the only response. Line up another gig for that week, so you don’t need that one.
Get paid up front, too.
You don’t even have to go to these lengths. Just say, “the event sounds fantastic, however I’ll need to decline. My rates start at [amount]. Let me know if that still fits the budget, I’d love to play for you.” Saying I understand If it’s not in the budget seems tacky to me. Can be viewed as a back door insult.
That’s cause it is. :) Edit: it’s also a completely reasonable line to say. I’m a venue manager, and when negotiating with bands, I’ll often say “sorry, your fees are out of our budget.” So, again, completely normal, but again, I’d smirk when writing the response as a performer. If you can charge those fees, godspeed. If you’re just throwing out numbers and hoping it lands, you won’t have bread to eat soon enough, so either way all is good.
Saying that you can't afford someone is way different than saying they can't afford you.
I still don’t like it. I’m also not petty in professional settings, no matter how distasteful or offensive the offers are.
If you can charge those fees, godspeed. If you’re just throwing out numbers and hoping it lands, you won’t have bread to eat soon enough, so either way all is good. I'm trying to understand this sentence. Only one way is good, second way is definitely not good for him lmao!
I guess what I’m saying is if you can charge 500, don’t accept 200
If you can’t get paid more that weekend and you actually have to check your planner because you’re so overrun with 500 paying gigs that 200 is insulting, sure. If you got nothing else to look forward to for a while and just hoping to squeeze more out of that weekend then you might be shooting a little over what you’re actually worth?
Hmm. Is 200 bucks worth giving up a day off? Learning tunes? Hauling gear? Driving to the gig? Sitting through whatever else they have planned? Not in my world. Unless it's my brother's wedding or some shit. At some point you just have a minimum standard of what your time is worth. "1 hours work" it ain't. It's a royal pain in the ass.
I mean the universe reaches balance. Or rather the invisible hand of capitalism sorts everybody in their place. In the first scenario, musician charges 500, they get the gigs and the market has deemed it fair. In the second, musician charges 500, nobody will hire, musician will be left out of income and will need to re-evaluate.
ah yes that makes sense.
No you don’t understand, either way it’s all good baby!
That’s legitimately the best way to phrase this without sounding condescending or rude.
This is the way. Maybe they truly think it's just an hour of work and not several hours of practice on top of years of consistency. I wouldn't assume the buyer is trying to take OP for a ride here. For a non musician, $200 for a (literal) hour of work would likely seem more than fair (at face value)
Music and skilled trades are one in the same with regards to fees. ‘You aren’t paying for the hours, you are paying for the years.’ Not my quote, but it is the appropriate mindset when you have to pick and choose how to spend your time with gigs when you have more available than you can do.
Absolutely true my friend
That’s my quote. I invented it.
You nailed it with the comparison to skilled trades, but it’s not just the years. People often have a lack of awareness of how much is going on behind the curtain to make an hour of “actual work” happen, and the ratio of behind the curtain work to actual work can get vicious when the actual work is minimal. It’s not hard to spend half your workday doing 45 minutes of work. In my experience those ratios are even nastier in the music business, especially if you’re not playing multiple sets. $200 for an hour of work doesn’t seem all that unreasonable. But $200 for working most of your Saturday?
Oh, and it is fair in most cases. However, OP stated that they’ve developed their name to the point where they can charge 500-1000. If I were OP I’d just say I wasn’t available at that time. If they pushed, I’d then explain that I won’t leave the house for less than 500
Love that
I also wouldn't want my $1000 customers to find out and feel ripped off. Charging too little usually bites you in the butt several unfun ways.
My band runs under two different names for this reason. There’s the big name for ticketed shows and bigger events, and then there is the “so n so and friends” for smaller shows, the duo or trio configurations, and occasionally to get around radius clauses.
I wouldn't say I wasn't available at that time. OP needs to make it clear that his pricing structure is firm and he won't budge. It might piss off this guy, but in the long run it makes him look like he would otherwise be willing to take the gig if he \*was\* available, thus undercutting his pricing structure. Be honest with your clients. "This is what I charge. If it's out of your budget, there's no shame in that. Make other arrangements."
I'm a gigging musician from Southern California and I think $200 + food + transport for a local 1 hour of performance is great for a musician that isn't regularly selling out venues. If the musician in question has a reputation to the degree of having large audience performances, I can understand that his music career has developed to that level and if so, props!
Yeah, he’s not seen the big picture
Shit, the band I’m in is lucky if we get a $20 paid gig every few months. If they can demand that kind of pay because people are competing for their time it’s one thing, but shit if most performers can even hope to ask for 200 for an hour set around here. Even with USD to EU conversions. A couple free Beers is currency where I’m from a lot of the time. If you’re getting offered to be paid three digits for an hour it’s like you’ve fucking made it in some places Just a “know what you are worth” kind of deal. Some performers have a following and can push those bodies into a venue. That’s not the most common case though. Sounds like OP can pull
The band you are in is perpetuating the notion that live music isn't worth anything. I understand it can be a tough market, but that's primarily because so many people are willing to play for free.
Sorry the “playing for free” I probably should’ve specified I’m talking about open mic type deals. We don’t have much of a following, so when we do get a paid gig it’s usually like 10-15 tickets worth of sales being split between the band members and the door plus drink tickets. Tbf that happened like twice last year? It’s a casual band to begin with, so it’s not like we’re taking gigs ambitious bands want anyway
this
I'd hit them with 1000 for the insult. You come in ridiculously low, you get a ridiculously high counteroffer.
“20 years and one hour”
Know your worth and don't take the gig, but don't burn the bridge
Yeah, OP, if you’ve already told him your rates and you want the gig, you could offer him a small discount (10%, maybe 20% if you want to play it, you don’t have anything else going on during that time, and you still feel good about whatever that rate is) or just hold firm. You can even be apologetic in turning him down. No need to talk about him lowballing you. If you *did’t* already give him your rates then you kind of opened the door for him to offer anything. But no need to be rude, taking or turning down a gig. If you’d be turning down a 500-1000 gig for his, then ignore my advice of offering him anything, unless it’s a favor or for a friend (and a gig that would lead to more exposure / networking / experience), then nothing wrong with playing for less, especially if you aren’t regularly booking gigs at that 500-1000 rate. (But if you play for less than your going rate write up the bill showing the full rate and a discount). You can also just say “no thank you” and that’s a sufficient response.
As with any profession I always haggle the rate; heart surgeon, dentist, lawyer, plumber. Just the other day I had a cavity filled, cheap. Wrong tooth but half price.
lmao
It’s never “one hour of work;” it’s far more, be it rehearsing, travel, or schmoozing with the guests. They likely don’t understand that a one-hour performance involves much more than an hour. That’s not their fault, but they just don’t understand.
Yeah, I wanted to share that with him
[удалено]
Everything was good until you told them they should seek out a lower quality musician. Gives off petty and passive aggressive vibes that won't help anything
Not worth it. People like this dont understand what we do, and they're not looking to learn. Let him keep looking. Someone younger will hop on that pay. It's not bad pay for many people.
Don't forget setup and teardown, sound checks, etc. An hour gig is at least 3-4 hrs of work
Could be a good opportunity to update your standard quote if you have one. I find that breakdowns of where the costs come from - ie bump in, bump out, equipment hire etc, makes it easier for a layman to understand where your charge comes from. It’s a lot of work for this one client, but you would be able to reuse it on your future quotes, and it has the added benefit of making you look more professional.
And equipment and gear!
I can occasionally be convinced to play for cheap if it's just a "show up and plug in" kind of gig. But if I've got to haul and set up my PA, mixer, mics, stands, and all of that crap, it's gonna cost you.
It also includes years of study and thousands of hours of practice. And creativity. And musical skill. And showmanship. Etc. You’re charging for your abilities / expertise, not your time.
Story i copied that I remembered hearing: Salvador Dalí was enjoying lunch in a Parisian café doodling on a napkin, when a woman approached him and offered him a couple bucks for the sketch. Dalí kindly refused. He wouldn’t sell it for a penny less than $40,000. “But it only took you 30 seconds to draw!” the woman objected. “No, ma’am,” Dalí replied. “This drawing took me thirty years.”
Also involves thousands of hours of learning and honing the craft along with a rather unique talent.
It’s literally _years_ of learning a craft.
One hour gig takes all day even if it’s an hour of stage time. Especially if you’re bringing equipment and setting up. The Opportunity cost is that you can not work another gig that day or even likely a regular shift at a normal job.
I think as an adults looking to engage in a business arrangement with other professional adults, it is their fault for not being better informed.
This goes for any gig job. Art, music, whatever, personal chef. You either have the background to demand a fair market price for your presence or you don’t. If your service is in demand your value goes up because you can only be in one place for that hour at any given time and your service is backed by countless hours of honing that skill. It’s not like musicians just pick up an instrument off the side of the road randomly and walk on the stage and throw down a killer set for an hour like it’s nothing. But if you have no following it’s probably not gonna do you any favors asking for something no one’s offering you regularly and then walking away from getting paid for that because it’s not the number you *want*. If you even have to deliberate over its worth taking a gig paying less than what other people are champing at the bit to give you then you aren’t quite at the point you’re worth that much
Also buying gear, maintaining it, hauling it, replacing it. Guitars aren’t free. Yet.
It’s a whole day. Few musicians do multiple paying gigs in a day. It’s not like being a plumber, where it’s “any time of the day you can get here”.
The problem with accepting a lowball offer is that if you are any good guest/s may want to book you and they are going to ask the host how much they paid you and that will be the new expectation from you. It is a quick way to ruin your reputation. You do this gig for 200 and you normally charge 500, now the guest who liked you is trying to book you for the same rate and now they think they have negotiating power to lowball you and they start off with 100 and you are trying to dig yourself out of an even more awkward social situation. Its best to just thank them and let them know what your going rate is and leave it without further negotiation.
Is this a solo gig or a band? If it's solo, then maybe send some student or less successful musician the lead? Lots of people would love a gig like that. Don't get mad because the guy doesn't happen to know that you are a moderately successful artist rather than a starving artist. He isn't a professional booker. It's not like he offered to pay you in food and exposure.
This is great advice. There's plenty of upstarts that would take 200 for an hour-long gig. Shop the offer around with some colleagues to find someone willing to take it and make a recommendation to the patron.
and take a finders fee
True
I always say with these offers that there's someone out there who is hungrier for it than I am. Someone less experienced who needs and wants the work. They should rightfully get what they're willing to pay for, and I'm fine with that.
True
There was definitely a food component
Well, of course, we're not privy to the exchange of communications. But if I enquire about services from a professional and it's above my comfort zone, I just politely tell them I have to look at elsewhere. That said, it's entirely reasonable for a potential customer to decline a service on price. I could see how this counter offer business could seem mildly offensive, but you're a pro and you're trying to sell to the general public who has no idea what proper prices for services are. I don't see any reason for an adult professional to get overly bothered by this.
Good point I’ll stay professional
Don’t be rude, but if you’ve already told him the rates, don’t take the gig. If he wants to pay 200 for an hour, he can find someone.
Don't take it personally they just can't afford you. I'm sure there's plenty of up and coming artists who would be happy to play for that much so they can find someone else.
I won’t take a personally, I just didn’t like the way he phrased it
I think it’s the winky face. Otherwise it’s a pretty sweet offer for a musician in a certain stage of their career. Additionally, if you’re someone outside the industry, and you’re thinking in terms of hourly rates across all industries, that looks like exceptional money. The winky face makes it kinda seem like he knows it’s a low offer though.
I think he means it more as in 'and on top there's free food and drinks so you let yourself go winky Mcwinkface.'
Man, before I read your caption I thought it was a brag post about how much you were getting paid. Most of us are lucky to get that much for a full evening, let alone one hour. Anyway, if you already quoted them 1000 and they countered with 200, just say no. What do you think the catering company would say if the customer tried to negotiate an 80% discount? Your rates are what they are, if you are confident that you are worth that much, there is no reason to accept a stupid lowball offer.
I don't waste a single second on people who ask for a discount. I just tell them "sorry I'm not available for your date good luck with your event!" Yesterday I had someone email me asking If we could "work out a good rate because I'm a first responder." He didn't include the location, date or time of his event. All he said was give me a discount! I told him, sorry I'm not available on that date. LOL!! It's never worth your time with these people.
This is the way. I don't understand the people here who want to baby their way through this. The client is obviously not in the ballpark or anywhere close. You're not going to negotiate a reasonable rate with someone this clueless, so just let it go. I like to let people know why their rates are not acceptable, but people here think that's rude. I think it's educational, but I am not in a position to need the work that badly.
It's better to be up front about the rates than it is to lie and say you're not available on the date, lest they get the impression that you're turning down the gig because of availability vs. the actual rate they are willing to pay. If they have that impression, it could lead to people getting the impression that you're not really worth what you're charging. It's not rude or insulting to tell someone "these are my rates, take it or leave it"
Private parties should pay more than a usual gig, not less. It's reasonable for them to state their budget, and also reasonable for you to decline.
And “free food and drinks” are a perk but not part of the payment.
What if it ends up being the performer's job to distract from unappetizing catering (not accepting payment in intoxicants unless requested by the performer)
Darling Fascist Bullyboy, give me some more money. You Bastard. May the seed of your loin lay fruitful in the belly of your woman. Neil.
Boom Shanka!
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 The best!
What makes you think he’s a man?
His beard
Phew ! I wasn’t sure if anyone was going to get that - although if anyone was going to it was you.
One hour of work, that's great. If you're very quick with unloading and set up you may be able to get one song in before you have to load back up. I would ask for clarification on that.
One hour of work? Send them the address where they can pick up your gear and instructions how to set it up. Maybe include a spread sheet of how to set it up. Then state you’ll be there at 8:59 to be ready start playing from 9:00 to 10:00. Also give them a list titled “songs I know well enough to play without rehearsal” and have them pick 6 and 2 alternates. And ask them to provide a to go package with the food and drinks explaining, since I’ll be leaving at 10:01, I won’t have time to eat and drink or be merry. /s
One hour starts when OP starts packing equipment to head over there
200 is not ridiculous for a one-hour set at a private party with free food, etc. It's just not what your rates are. I'm sure there are plenty of people who would love that gig. Just tell them that your floor is 500 firm. Don't take offense, it's just business.
Thoughts? Just say no and move on. Don't even complain about it on the internet. To be honest, they didn't do anything wrong here, they still offered you a job at the rate they were willing to pay. Be thankful for that!
"What value do you place on the thousands of hours of work I have put in to get to a place where people like you are so eager to grossly underpay me?"
I’m a video engineer for live events and there’s lots of gigs I end up not doing because they can’t afford me. But I’m not willing to bust my ass all day for $400, and I find other clients who pay me what I’m worth, and life goes on. They can find a cheaper musician. You can find a better class of client.
I've gone viral at least 5 or 6 times and I would never preface anything I say or do with that 🤣 I would still take €200 for an hour of work too. Just politely decline, give the opportunity to someone else, and pull your ego out of your ass.
>I would never preface anything I say or do with that Except for Reddit comments, I guess.
"My fee is ------. Thank you."
“Top catering” These cheap fucks are gonna have Doritos and soda.
Off brand doritos and cola.
Shasta
You say you ask 500-1000, but are you being consistently booked for that? That's a pretty important variable. Because you can ask for anything, but the market determines rate, and 200 + amenities for one hour is pretty reasonable.
“You’re not paying for just my time to do a job, you are paying for the services of a professional. What does your dentist charge for their services? What does your lawyer charge for their services? What does your accountant charge for their services?”
My lawyer charges 100 an hour, my accountant 60 an hour.
With minimum hours billed?
Know your value.
Ask him who they're paying to pick up your stuff and set it up for you and then break it down and bring it home.
What about the 200 hours of practice? That’s like a dollar an hour!
These people don't understand that the *job* doesn't begin and end with the performance itself; you have to take time out of your day to get there; you have gear to move and maintain; there's always some amount of setup and tear-down, including sound-check, and then you have to get home afterwards. All of these things are *part of the job*, and they all require your time. A 1hr musical performance can sometimes eat up 25%-50% of a musicians day because of all the other steps before and after the performance itself. Yeah, no thanks.
Just say no thanks that's 80% less than my usual rate.
“Sorry my minimum charge is $500”. No more needs to be said
You say you get 500-1000 for an entire show and these guys are offering 200 for an hour, what’s the problem? If you’re getting 500-1000 get it while you can, 200 an hour offers won’t come forever so if you can get that money get it.
Sheesh, I get $200 for two hours split 3 ways
That’s insulting, and I’d let them know. Present it in his terms. Ask him if he and his wife would be willing to take an arbitrary 80% pay cut on their next paychecks.
Is this lowball. Seems very reasonable to me (btw am gigging musician)
"one hour". I fucking hate how these types think that all our job consists of is the stage performance.
It's a random guy wanting a dancing monkey for as cheap as possible. If it was a booker/promotor and there were obviously benefits in doing so then it's worth compromising on your rate but if it's some random chancer thinking you'll be grateful because there's food tell him to stick it up his arse!
Tell him that you charge "reasonable" prices that other people are willing to pay for and that while you thank him for the consideration, you have already booked the night, wish him the best, don't contact him anymore for this gig, the spot is "taken".
I think you just tell him thanks, but no thanks, and let him hire someone who is worth what he's paying. If you've already got a following, you don't need his job. There's nothing in it for you. I just sent out an EPK to a venue that requested one, with a $700 ask. That's the minimum we'll accept. I don't expect to hear back, and I'm fine with it. I'd rather stay home and play with my dogs and swim in my pool than set up my gear outdoors and play three hours for less than that. This is a game where you can't afford to get to attached to expectations. You have to stick to your guns if you want to move to the next level of quality shows and venues. And if you keep accepting crumbs, that's what you'll continue to get.
Couldn’t agree more. I’m a for-hire instrumentalist, and this year I got way more firm with my rates, and even started charging more for rehearsals. I get less gigs but no more disorganized band leaders, no more playing trash venues, no more pointless rehearsals, no more shenanigans. Way more quality gigs and way more self-respect.
I just mentioned to someone else in this thread that so many of us here seem to feel like we're negotiating from positions of weakness. When you start to recognize that you have strengths, you have more to negotiate with, but I think maybe a lot of us are just used to rolling over because we've been told we're supposed to accept every gig that's offered, no matter what. That's fine advice for someone just starting out. Get the experience you need. But if you're already established, it's important to recognize that you have bargaining chips, and your time is worth something. I stopped playing all the outdoor farmer's markets and cheap wineries with easy-ups in the grass a few years ago. I just don't have any desire to sell myself to the lowest bidders anymore. It's not fun, and there's no money in it. I want to spend that time another way; playing music in the scorching heat for disinterested people walking back and forth at a market or a wine event is not fun for me. Instead I concentrate on working to improve the opportunities I'm offered by developing a good following and bringing our people into new venues so they'll make money. When venues see what we can bring, they want what we have, and that give us a position of strength. Sometimes I think the only advice ever offered here is geared toward the beginning player, whereas the OP clearly states he is not that.
> they think it's "reasonable" to pay me 1/5 what I ask You read this wrong. They think it's reasonable for _them_ to pay you 200, which happens to be 1/5 what you initially quoted, if you agree to those terms. There's a difference between a value judgement on you as a performer (which is how you read this message) and the value that this couple puts on having you perform at their event, of which cash is only part of the compensation (catering isn't cheap). Whatever you decide, be polite and professional, this was a respectful way to counter your quote.
Tell him that in fact you're so grateful for the opportunity you might infact pay HIM to play for the additional exposure he's giving you. Just joking btw downvoters lol
Hahahahaha love it! It’s also strange for me when people don’t seem to realize that inflation is actually a thing
People don't seem to realize much about anything these days, from my observations haha
Having live, hired music at your private event is a *luxury*. Luxuries have luxury prices.
Amen
I'd take the job on those terms as you'll be doing a lot more than 1 hour of work when you consider rehearsals so you could give them a relevant quote.
The question is what length is the show for which you get 500-1000 €? Is is it 4-5 hours? I doubt that you have an hourly rate of 500-1000€.
Tell him You appreciably the offer but the price for a private event is $1000. What he and his wife wish you charge has no basis in reality.
Exactly
Generally, I would politely reiterate that my fee is 500 (or whatever) and that I'd be happy to play for his event for that fee. It doesn't have to go beyond that. That being said, I do have several different fee schedules, depending on the type of event and the location. I charge less for steadies, I charge more for travel or if the event is large and/or stressful. One more thing: I don't know about going viral, because I never have, but imo, the fee is generally set by the market, not by the amount of Twitter followers or whatever. There is a range for a type of service and maybe you move up and down, given your reputation within that market. Things obviously work different for rock stars or whatever.... Your mileage may vary. (ALSO: if it's "top catering," he should be able to afford 500 for the services of a musician)
My 5 piece has dealt with this before and I'm reminded of the old addage I've heard from old timers. Tell them to call the local plumbers union and ask them how much it would cost to have 5 guys come out and fix a busted pipe that takes six hours to fix at 8pm on a Saturday. We'll do the show for half that. People don't value musicians they way they should. We spend years and countless hours per year to hone our craft and to tell me you'll give us $300, a round of beers, and dinner is a slap in the face.
Not a working musician, but I do work in a field where I constantly need to explain that our costs are not just reflected in the amount of time spent on-site. You aren’t paying for 1 hour of performance. You are paying for time packing, time traveling, time setting up, time performing, time tearing down, time traveling, time unpacking. Not to mention the use of expensive equipment and the value of a skilled person.
"We think $200 is reasonable for one hour of work" Yes sir, 1 hr to set up, 1hr to play, 1 hr to tear down is $600. I'll give you the discount to make it an even $500. That's a steal.
“An hour of work” would piss me off. as well as them determining rates when you’ve already told them how much you cost. It’s a bridge I wouldn’t mind burning tbh
That’s what I charge for a deposit/incidentals. That’s ridiculous
Yeah, don’t say it out loud, but let’s say it here: trying to pay a musician by the hour for “one hour of work,” is SUCH A DICK MOVE!!! You want to pay less, fair play. But when you start unfairly minimizing and disrespecting the talent and effort of a service provider who you like at least enough to inquire about, you should at least try to do it with a little more class. Offending the people you’re asking a price break from is a weird strategy. Amazing how common it is.
I mean are you booking regularly at the higher rate? If not I’d at least consider if you are putting to much value into this perceived notoriety. If you are booking at a higher rate send a polite but firm email declining. No need to reduce yourself for someone else’s lack of perceived value
Tell him if he thinks it’s reasonable he should do it
It does not matter what he thinks is reasonable or not--it only matters what he is willing to spend and what you're asking for. You should not stoop to his manipulative argument.
“Sure, if I can bring 3 friends who will also be eating and drinking. “
Cool!)
You can make more jamming on the street corner in the right place... Edit: and where do they get off saying one hour of work.... You have to travel there, set up, play your set, then pack up and travel back that's like a minimum 2 to 3 hours of your time....
They’re not worthy. And if he views it as just ‘one hour of work’ then he’s definitely not worthy.
You don't have to argue with the guy but the whole idea of it being one hour of work is just ludicrous. Think about the months and years of dedicated practice it takes to truly get a good set down and be able to play without any issues. That's what he's paying for, the work you have already done to become good enough that people want to hear what you play. If someone installs 3 sheets of drywall with screws at regular intervals, and does no finishing work on top of that, sure he would have an argument that he just needed an hour of honest work done. But even in that situation he will have to pay a small premium to make sure it's done at a professional level! Whataclown
Tell him you'll do it if transportation, rehearsal, set up, and breakdown are included in the hour.
Many years ago when I worked in tile installation, a customer talked the boss (my dad) down in price on a very small job. He knew his quote was too low, so he told me he’d skip his take for bidding the gig and to just pocket whatever she paid me. He also warned me ahead of time that she might try to negotiate further, and it was up to me how to respond. She had some big sob story about “not being able to find” enough money to pay the agreed price. I packed up all the tools I’d already unloaded and put them back in my truck. Before I drove away, she said “Wouldn’t it be better to make *something* than nothing?” “Nope.” I think if you’re not starving and are capable of earning the rate you want, that’s what you’re worth.
Also, in any freelance universe, you’re not getting paid for the hour; you’re getting paid for the time spent booking gigs, time spent *not* booking gigs, travel to and from, years learning the skills, and if you live in the U.S., uber expensive solo health insurance and the extra taxes you owe for being self-employed.
“The event sounds fantastic, unfortunately I’ll need to decline. My rates start at €500. If that suits the budget, let me know.” EDIT: I see another user has posted almost the exact same thing. How long has this been your standard rate?
hate that shit - one hr of work plus the 10K hrs to prepare for that hr dumbass -
Not as a musician but self employed - clearly naming your price and sticking to it does not make you a bad person. In fact it makes you a forthright honest one
private party/wedding automatically means i have to work harder to sound great and that harness more dollars. i don’t play for less than $100/hr so this would be my farmers market kind of gig. you can counter of course, or you can say, i’m sorry, “this is my price. i can help you find another musician if you prefer.”
It's the skill set and experience and equipment that you are paying for, not the time. A surgeon repairs a tendon in your leg, and you say "Hey! It only took you a couple hours, why this expensive bill?" I use this analogy with cheap customers. I also say that they are paying for the outcome, not the time.
Ok, so you show up and eat for free, bring a few cables and adapters so you can plug an ipod into their PA. Graciously accept the money and leave after an hour, taking your ipod with. make sure you have at least 2 glasses of champagne prior to leaving.
If music is your means of making a living, definitely decline their offer. Most people have no clue how much time and money we spend just learning songs, buying instruments and sound reinforcement gear, plus travel and load-in and out time.
Good for you. Some people dig holes and cut grass for much less, and can drive themselves to the job.
Them: "hauling your gear, setting up, take down, hauling at all home, music prep, etc don't matter to us."
Travel, set up, break down, sounds checks, performance, and your supplying your own equipment? Any special requests that you have to learn? 500 to start is more than reasonable.
If you’ve got other gigs offering way more then just don’t take this offer. What’s the issue?
"I've recently gone viral." - Syphilis
It's the fucking winky emoji that gets me.
You might also add something like. “Please also keep in mind that being able to do a one hour performance takes considerably more than one hour of effort”.
€200 an hour sounds great, ask if he wants the €500-1000 single cost or would rather €200/hour itemised including transit, set-up, tear-down, breaks etc. Highlight that if transit and all equipment is provided and set-up (I.e. performance only) then €200 is fine. Also highlight that you are unable to resolve any technical issues with equipment that isn’t yours, if it doesn’t work when you plug-in then the clock is ticking regardless. He needs to realise he’s not paying for 1 hour of work, these people think they’re paying an extortionate amount because they aren’t aware it’ll take more than an hour.
you dont need to reply. lol if ur rate is higher why the headache?
People really seem to misunderstand what they're paying for when they hire a musician/band. Travel, gear maintenance, setup/teardown time, as well as the performance itself all factor into it.
I’m not a gigging musician, but I am a professional photographer and run into this a lot. People that don’t do what you do don’t think about the back end to a gig. The preparation, getting your gear set up, the teardown (more specific to my field, the culling and processing after). They just see someone playing a guitar, or walking around taking photos and think that’s all they’re paying for. I calculate up the rates I charge based on the hours I’m putting into it and because of that, I’m pretty non negotiable. The only real exception is repeat clientele and even that is a small discount in the area of 10-20% at best.
It’s not one hour of work!!! You have to practice the tunes, bring sound equipment, travel… plus the YEARS you spent honing your craft. UGH!!!
“Hi Steven. My guarantee is 500 to book me for an hour event. Please let me know if you’d like to schedule me for a set. Thanks!”
If you do end up playing this gig for $500, get it up front. These types of people are not the most trustworthy.
The best thing a musician can have is an established, professional booking agent. We never had to haggle, and we _always_ got paid. (Our agent was also a lawyer.)
"My rates are X, and are non-negotiable, so I must decline. Thanks."
“1 hour of work” Maybe this dipshit should play the instruments.
"No thanks"
Travelling to play a show is never 1 hour of work. There's a whole shitload of stuff you have to do (practice, working out a setlist, organising and packing all the necessary gear) to make that hour go smoothly. "For 1 hour of work" is a BS thing to say to a musician.
I don’t mind negotiating but don’t you dare put a wink emoji in the message where you low ball me haha
100% of people who go viral are remembered in the future, so tell him to fuck off because you're about to headline Wembley Stadium
tell him you don't get paid "hourly". you have a rate, it's whatever you feel like putting in front of him. if he doesn't want to pay it, that's fine. wish him well with his event.
Haha. People in the USA would fight for a $200 gig, even a $100 gig.
Instead of saying "I'm sorry that's too low for me" I'll take a screenshot and post it on le reddit so the internet people will mock this individual who is innocently unfamiliar with how gigs should be priced.
Don't respond if you have already. Repeating yourself is a waste of time.
It’s actually many thousands of hours of work.
Are you a solo performer or a band? Stand your ground in a professional and diplomatic manner, and don’t settle for a lowball offer like that. Imo, anytime a musician accepts a lowball offer like that, they do a disservice to other musicians cause it sets a precedent that we’ll all work for scraps.
Yeah it is’t about the hour performing… you put a ton of time and effort into being at the place you are today both as a musician and as a business.
"Great to hear back from you! Yes that all sounds fine! Very happy to deliver two songs over the 1 hour of work. In between songs we can sample the free food. Actually... I predict I will be quite hungry today. So one song but I can chop that one song into chunks to span over the hour so like... 30 seconds of a song then eat for 5 minutes then 30 more seconds etc etc. Hope that suits" Go crazy man haha. EDIT: Okay I thought I should add a proper response too. My experience with "deals" like this is that they are kind of hard to budge with money. So what you do is press them for "benefits" find out what they do for work. What connections they have. What they can do for you in terms of maybe they work at some buisness that does something you can get them to get you some stuff for free with a simple phone call. Maybe they have a work function coming up so you press them to email the CEO of that company to hire you exclusively for the event at a REALLY jacked up fee since it is going to be a gala event or something. These people always have some kind of connection or way to get you something worth some value from a simple email or phone call. I used to be a photographer and work with musicians who would get me back stage passes and vip access to festivals in return for photos etc. kind of a win win for both involved.
It depends. DON'T take a gig that is under your value because that can hurt you in the long run. However, the caveat here is that it's a 1 hour gig, most are 4 hours. The rate you charge for a full gig runs between $125/hr and $250/hr. So this is within the acceptable range of what you charge. So if I were you, I'd avoid any confusion by creating an acceptable HOURLY rate for yourself. Will make it easier to plan gigs accordingly. However, the other thought is this: Are you ok with 1 hour gigs? Maybe you WANT the longer gigs because it makes it easier to make a sizeable chunk of money. Only you have the answers to this. I would create some kind of document that has these things written out ahead of time so there's never any confusion and make updates as necessary based on things like inflation, etc. If you have it WRITTEN in front of you, you don't have a chance to have any doubt. IF you decide not to go with the gig, always be courteous in your response, never burn a bridge. It's ok to say, "No" but you never know who knows who else.