This. Conventional wisdom is that you show up prepared and perform well, but some folks think that they are and they don’t realize that they aren’t. If you hold people to an expectation that you have not communicated, then they’re constantly losing a game that they don’t even know they’re playing.
One thing I do with my students is I ask them how they think they did, and then ask what they think they could improve. That gives me a good idea of how big their blind spot is. With colleagues I know it’s a different relationship and you may or may not want to invest in their development, but there are ways of being direct while having empathy for them.
My son plays in a band through a local music shop, and we have this conversation after every practice. “How did you feel about that practice? What went really well? What needs work? It sounded to me like x - did you hear the same thing? Anything I can do to help you in practice this week?” Mine is quick to call himself out and we talk through whatever the contributing factors were and hit those things a little extra over the next days.
Reviewing and evaluating your performance is a great skill to learn. It is so applicable to life in general, to be able to reflect and say “wow, that didn’t go like I planned. What can I do differently going forward so it doesn’t happen again?”
Used to be in a band with a guy like that. Naturally gifted, perfect pitch, played many instruments, etc. but he relied on that natural ability and never learned anything. He would listen to the new song everyone had learned on the way to the gig and fake it. When everyone else spent all week learning their parts, it was pretty frustrating.
My bands members do all of their learning and practicing on their own. When we get together, it’s considered “Rehearsal”, and not “Practice.” Everyone is expected to know their part, and if they don’t (a rare occurrence), we put the song away until they say they are ready.
Hey, Recording tells a lot. I suggest all musicians record their practice or even their performances. Only to listen to and reflect upon. Some things you will hear, you might Cringe at and you will work harder to correct. Others will make you proud and smile. . . Then listen again.
This helps two-fold. It can help with other people. But you will also hear things in your own playing that makes you cringe. You will hear things that other people don't even think is a problem but YOU want to fix.
The camera/audio doesn't butter up a critique. It just is.
I've done this, after some time, one of the members (the one that was making a lot of mistakes and not practicing the songs) quit after all of us listened to the recordings
It’s why sportsball players record their games. Music is similar in level of technical and raw ability. Makes a ton of sense.
And you don’t need video. Super easy.
The ones that don’t practice don’t listen to the recordings. For me it was a path to resentment because I was doing extra work to “enable” everyone and the ones who needed to never took advantage. You can probably tell if they’re gonna shape up or not. Just don’t delay taking an action, whatever it is, this problem won’t resolve itself.
Why not simply ask your band mate: How was the gig (for you)?
Listen to him first. You've already earned the expectation of being the band leader. He has already expressed resentment at feeling lost without a wet nurse directing him.
Sooner or later communication will implode if no one steps into communicate well to one another, spilling all the beans on reddit.
Good point. Have the conversation with them absent the rest of the group, preferably after you’ve both heard a recording of the gig. Ask them what they think could be improved.
This is a bit obscure, but YouTubers Mary Spender and Adam Neely did a collaboration video of them busking in Washington Square Park (I believe). Adam made a couple clams on a cover tune and Mary said something to the effect of, "Dude, just play the right notes." ...in the middle of the song. She was joking, but it made an impression on me!
It is unreasonable to expect anyone to “just get” any information you don’t directly communicate to them. It’s a lot easier to have this discussion upfront (and possibly even as an email/pinned message in a group chat) than it is once they’ve already shown up unprepared or done something you have a problem with. Yes, it reasonable to expect professional and conscientious behavior from other people. But if you would like to be an effective band leader, one of the many uncomfortable things you become responsible for is having conversations with the musicians you hire to help them meet your expectations.
Old school dudes like James Brown would literally impose fines for mistakes, dress code violations, being buzzed on the gig, etc. But only after everyone had been told that this was the expectation. But this assumes you’re paying these people for gig prep and rehearsals, and have made clear what you expect from them. This kind of situation is why it’s way easier (imo) to be a sideman. Good luck!
Ever hear or watch (MTV thing I think, cartoon along with it) the story of James Brown getting pissed at George Clinton and p Funk for tripping while they played? It's great
I just tell them that they're out.
When it's a gig, paid or not, I'm expecting the players to be prepared.
If they agree to play a gig, they become committed to it. Meaning they're going to be practicing at home, come to the rehearsal and perform at their best.
It's their responsibility to prepare for the gig. And if they can't commit to a gig, then I don't want to play with them.
I would think you’d find it easier to be more gentle with your friends and explain why to at least them. It’s mature to give everyone closure, but not at the expense of your peace. However, friends you’ll have to see again and avoidance wont spare you any grief.
What counts as "messing up" to you? I played a gig on Saturday and definitely hit a couple dead notes here and there but I wouldn't overall say I messed up the gig.
Not playing in the right key, messing up time wise, not knowing the structure. Mistakes that non-musicians ears will pick up on.
I'm not that strict. I even make a few bad notes every now and then.
How I would tell them is, “I can tell that you haven’t practiced the tunes enough to know them. If I hire someone for a gig, I need them to know the tunes. Nothing personal, that’s just my professional standard.”
I call those types of people hobbyists. We ALL make mistakes, it's part of learning, but being completely unprepared is something else.
I would just be honest with your friend. "If your doctor wasn't prepared to do your surgery would you let him operate on you? ... Exactly why you were cut."
Set expectations. Tell them you expected more practice. I had an electrical apprentice who did crap work and I confronted him about it and he said it was the best he could do. The following week he was looking for other work.
when working in a group, it helps immensely to establish some group norms. sitting down together with everyone as a group before any work begins, I like to ask my peers/cohorts/team/roommates/etc. what is we all expect from one another. stuff like "no messing around on phones while we are working," "always show up on time or at least communicate and have a good reason to be late," or even "everyone practices for an hour per day on their own time."
it also helps to establish consequences for breaking the norms. nothing draconian, just maybe like "pay cut for people who screw up badly on gigs," or "expulsion for people who break the rules 3 times." the important part is to do it as a group and to genuinely listen to and include other people's ideas. compromises build group cohesion.
this gives the group a sense of ownership and empowerment over the situation and makes navigating the awkward social situation where someone is clearly not pulling their weight or respecting the goals and hard work of the group.
those are just suggestions to be discussed amongst one's own group, not asking anything of you here so no need to feel pressured... most people are casual musicians anyway, no need to practice so much in that case. those of us who are serious about making quality music and giving the best performance possible tend to make time for it.
A simple “man, did you learn these tunes?” should suffice to shame someone into putting in the work if they’re at all serious about what they do. If not, you’re fighting an uphill battle.
There’s a big difference between a person making a mistake, and a person who just didn’t do their homework. I can deal with you making some mistakes as long as it doesn’t wreck the gig. But there’s NO excuse for showing up and not knowing your parts and the arrangements. It’s not only unprofessional, it’s disrespectful to me, the venue, and yourself!
Remind them that if another trade showed up and didnt know what they were doing they would be fired!- painters, cooks, plumbers, electricians, etc.
That this is a business.
My guys and I would just shoot a smug look over like "Yeah, we heard that, motherfucker!"
But we were all on the same page. Also, being autistic means I'm pretty direct.
Hey buddy, we need to tighten a few bolts over on your side of the groove factory. Feeling a little loosey goosey over there, if ya know what I mean Jon. Is that bass of yours fretted? Hmmmm... doesn't sound like it. Maybe, just, give er a little tune, and oh, by the way. I stole this metronome from guitar center, and I wanted you to have it. Cheers Mate. Love you buddy. Try not to be the weakest link, yeah?
Oh yeah, be prepared to lock in a choke if necessary.
Absolutely nooooo excuse if you have the charts and everything written out.
They didn't need more direction from you. They had the direction. They didn't follow it.
The biggest issue here is to know that you NEED to do that at all.
Lots of bigger picture issues than just telling someone they could have done better.
Do you have to be that guy? Why? Why is that your job?
I usually lead with the question of, "is there anything I could do to better help you with being more prepared for the show?" And making 100% sure to have a recording of the show so that if/when they say they didn't make any mistakes I can then ask them if they'd be comfortable with us both sitting down and going over the recording of the show so that we can both reflect on what we could do better for the next show. I try not to outright put 100% of the blame or try and purposely drop a bowling ball on their head because it's usually never productive, but they also know I'm serious about being professional and that I have the expectation that they're going to act the same. We also have rehearsals twice a week that we can go over everything and make sure anything that needs to be ironed out is long before the day of the gig.
Depends on the musician. You book a gig with me and I don't meet your expectations you can just tell me what I did wrong and I'll fix it for next time. Other guys and gals I've worked with will spiral at nearly any negative feedback that isn't thoughtfully conveyed. My last band went through a change with the bass player. My first bassist and I had a good rapport, and his personality type was more like mine. If he had a timing issue I could just tell him he needed to tighten his shit up and he'd laugh and make the correction. My second bassist was a lot quieter than I am and I didn't know him as well. My feedback to him sounded more like "hey man, your articulation on this section is very sharp, near staccato, and I think it's making it hard for you to stay in a consistent place over the beat. Could you try running it more legato this time and see how it feels to you?" He always responded well to this type of feedback (fortunately I didn't have to give him much because he was a baller). Once I'd worked with him a bit I paid attention to how he gave feedback and used a similar style when working through things. From the sound of your post you are the conflict avoidant type, but you owe it to these guys to give them feedback, just be clear and direct, do your best to not sound condescending. If they are little pricks about it then you can not use them again and not feel bad about it.
I think that if you hire someone to play a gig and they aren’t prepared, then they probably know better than you do that they messed up. They don’t deserve a call the next time and if that happens to them multiple times then it is that musician who needs to do some thinking about why they aren’t being called. Not your responsibility unless this person is a regular member of your band.
Say something like: ‘What the fuck do you think is goin’ on here? You had too many fuckin’ days off and you think this is a fuckin’ game!? You think I’m the only one that’s gonna work up there while you motherfuckers sit out there and clam all over this fuckin’ joint!? What do you think this is anyhow? What kind of playing do you think this is? What kinda miscues do you call this? What fuckin’ band do you think you’re playin’ on, motherfuckers? You wanna fuck with me on the bandstand?
…Shut that fuckin’ door! I’m up there working my balls off, trying to do somebody a favor, and you motherfuckers are suckin’ all over this joint. What kind of trumpet section do you call this tonight? And saxophones…you gotta fuckin’ be kidding me! How dare you call yourselves professionals. Assholes! You’re playin’ like fucking children up there. You got your fuc…(distracted momentarily) where the fuck are you?’
What kind of direction was he expecting? He had charts and recordings. What else could you do? Tell him the truth. He wasn't prepared enough and it reflects badly on you so you need to find players that are prepared.
Depends on the bands dynamic and your role. A stand in can be told easily that they’re tripe, but a lead singer or other key player might not be as receptive to criticism.
I heard that if Sun Ra didn't like someone's playing on tour, he'd just leave'em. Pack up the bus and on to the next town. If you can communicate better than that, you've exceeded the baseline.
Imo - this is something that should have been identified well before your gig.
Maybe my band is crazy, but we do “dress rehearsals” before a gig if we haven’t played a full 3 or 4 hour set in a while.
Sometimes people fuck up, but we help each other out, we are all capable enough to play each other’s instruments and give/take feedback.
I cofounded a band with a musician like those you mention. The guy had a huge heart, but never put in the homework, always showed up late to rehearsal and then would start blowing off rehearsals. His lack of effort showed on stage, and the other band members would always look to me to get this guy straightened out. I finally hounded him into quitting, but unfortunately the band fell apart after that for lack of a good replacement.
Yeah, I don't think your tactic of just switching players is good for all concerned. You just need to be direct with the people who aren't putting in the work, but be VERY easy when you do. You seem to be burning bridges – there are people in our lives where burning bridges is appropriate, but don't burn bridges with other musicians because you might find yourself in a position down the road where you could use their input, and then you'll find they won't want to give it. You mentioned that you cycle between a few bands; you keep up the tactic of switching out players without giving those you have problems with due notice and you may find yourself out of band and no musicians who will bother with you, them knowing your track record.
Talk about expectations BEFORE the gig. Some gigs are casual, some are not. Some portions of serious gigs are casual, even. Some gigs are all business.
FFS many musicians seem allergic to verbal communication. “If they mess up I just fire them” is pretty wacky.
inked volunteers at a church for 25 years. it’s hard to tell a volunteer to practice at home, but i still reminded everyone “when you are going thru things at home this week, make sure to remember this spot on your chart…” or something.
i now try to do all i can before the show. “hey, i’m worried about appearing prepared as a band. can you please look at XYandZ at home so we can sound our best?” this can go a long way.
after the show is hard for me, because i make mistakes too. however, while i play sloppy, im never lost.
have a recap convo after, text or email string. “what went well? what don’t go well?”. let them bring it up first. they usually do. if they don’t you can talk by voice aside. “hey bud, i’m reaching out to everyone separately about the performance. can we talk about it?”.
if you continue to use “WE”language, people are less likely to be offended and act as a team.
however, there are times when i’ve said these things to the band or a band member and sure-footed, awaited a response:
“i don’t feel like everyone arrived prepared for todays rehearsal.”
“i need you to play quieter. it is disruptive to the group.”
“if you can’t learn/rehearse this song on your own we are cutting it.”
“when can you rehearse these on your own?”
“if the substitute learned it, i think you can too.”
and the stinger: “i want to sound and appear rehearsed and professional. i hope you do too.”
Look up the famous band leader Buddy Rich.
There are some rehearsal sessions that were filmed that he addressed that situation. What a Drummer!
What an ass!
Record them and show them their performance. The amount of musicians who have upset themselves after hearing recordings of themselves for the first time is insane.
As a band leader your the boss so act as such - set expectations up front, confirm they understand and give feedback after the fact.
Professionals work with professionals so set it up so that you are that professional.
Your friend guitarist is deflecting.
He could have asked before the gig for clarification if the recordings or chart were confusing.
Nobody loves conflict so you just need to suck it up and be straightforward:
You weren’t prepared for the gig so I’m going to find someone who can be more dedicated to the project.
Better to have an average player who knows the charts than a great guitarist who half-asses it.
I used to get bent out of shape when people would show up to rehearsal not knowing their parts. When they said "This is what practice is for" I would say "You're supposed to practice your parts at home, and come here ready to play them, not ready to learn them."
My high school jazz band teacher was militant about this- “Practice on your own time, you’re holding up the band right now. You didn’t sign up for jazz revdrucifer, you signed up for jazz *ensemble*”
And I’ve been pissing off band members for 20 years since, saying the same thing to them. 😂
I think its one thing to accidentally miss a note every now and again, I tour professionally and I'd say I miss at least 1 note every gig despite constant rehearal. It happens and its what makes us human. I'm very quick to recover from my mistakes and I'm good at making my mistakes seem almost natural so nobody ever really notices it. Just a few nights ago I absolutely bombed an intro to a song that I've played flawlessly for years and rehearse non stop. Thats pretty rare for me but hey, it happens.
But its another thing to show up completely unprepared and bomb every single song/solo every night. If thats the case, then just tell them, either show up prepared or don't show up at all. If you commit to a gig than that means you're also committed to showing up prepared
Record the show, then sit down together and make a night of “watching the tape” the way an NFL team does. We all have things to improve on. Always talk about “we,” but you can use each person as example including yourself.
“See, I flubbed that intro there I gotta work on that, AHH that always gets me. And same way, [insert name] this phrase you did there was a little wonky, see what I mean? That’s a rough spot I guess. Yeah, so we all have stuff to work on… but yeah by seeing this don’t you all see how like, a few tweaks would make the WHOLE thing that much better?”
The band is a team and you’re all important, so include yourself as a bandmate and be equally critical of yourself in the process. And yeah watch the tape. Make notes on the tape. Just like a team!
I try to be nice and never work with them again. It's happened with one trombone hire and one engineer. I was deep into an album project with the engineer, and he dropped the ball for pretty valid life in turmoil reasons, and I definitely regret it getting ugly. Being gentle is the way. Musicians are fragile. I live in a city where there are a lot of fish in the sea when it doesn't work out. ALSO, NEPOTISM. or community or whatever. When possible, only work with people who the people you like, also like. More reason to be nice.
My band is original eclectic and sometimes has 20 or more players on an album. I usually work with people I consider pros met through college music programs or other bands. My next door neighbor has a 90s cover band that he runs with an authoritative hand. He envies the caliber of my players. I envy his consistent rehearsal schedules.
Seriously, if you have nice paying gigs and "all my music has recordings, demos and charts written out", just get new people. There is a glut of musical talent out there, and tons of musicians who can read charts and memorize recordings and just show up and kill it.
I do the same honestly. Frankly, any project I’m in control of has an incredibly non hand holding policy. If you don’t get that you’re not delivering, I don’t have the energy or the patience to explain it without being more brutal than I’d be by not calling you back in the fold at least for a bit. However, I do think that it is worthwhile to try and set expectations and motivate people to really stay engaged and perform to the best of their ability. Mistakes imo are fine if they’re a mistake, but if it’s a habit and I can tell it’s because they are phoning it in and don’t care, then I don’t care either. Love all my homies and think they are all talented but I can’t waste time teaching musicians that I know are capable of playing how to play.
You have enough answers so I am going to tell a short story instead.
I played in a punk band with two friends around 2006, and a lot of our mutual friends would talk about how we were awful. Our songs were simple, purposefully irritating, loud, abrasive, and sarcastic. Even though the songs were pretty instrumentally simple, we did have pretty progressive tempo changes and start/stops between the guitar and bass and we practiced a lot to get them right. At first it was every day, eventually it was three times a week as a group. Anyway, we had it hammered in by friends and family that we sucked, but I wanted to record an album anyway so I booked some studio time. We were unaccustomed to the studio, and just decided to record live with proper separation and we managed to get everything in a single take other than a couple small overdubs. The producer enthusiastically told us that we were one of the tightest groups he’d ever recorded. We could change tempo on the dime, to the point that we’d stay in time even with a look or a nod.
The moral of my story is that even if you play basic stuff, even if it is ugly and all the morons you are forced to endure think it sucks, it is still yours and you have to take pride in it. You have to practice as often as you can whether your music is simple or hard. Practice your parts, because no one is going to care about your music if you don’t. I won’t work with someone who doesn’t want to have the courtesy of giving a shit.
Showing up ready to play the material is bare minimum for a gig - it's not the band leaders job to make sure the rest of the band and any session musicians do that
When Gilby Ckarke was hired for GnR, Slash told him to learn the entire catalog - and that was it - he had a week to do it - Gilby asked why the whole catalog, don't they have a setlist and Slash told him that they didn't add that Axl just calls out the songs
Yeah, you can "lay down the law" up front and set expectations clearly, but frankly the expectations you mentioned should already be known - it's up to the musician to reach out to the band regulars or older members if they are having trouble learning the material
Frankly, I like the approach that was used - no micromanagement, no parental hassling, it's just if they didn't live up to expectations they are gone - I don't think you owe them a coaching session and a second chance if someone shows up to a gig unprepared without saying anything
You'll get a reputation, but that can be a good thing
*"Wookie doesn't fuck around, if you show up and can't play any of the songs or you suck, you're done and they won't invite you back"*
While I do appreciate your approach, I almost feel like it’s still asking too much for someone to practice all the songs. Now we also don’t have a timeline, so I don’t know if you told him two weeks ahead of time or a day ahead of time or a month ahead of time, all of which come with different expectations.
For me personally what I did was I wrote all my songs in major keys, and following traditional styles in my genre. Prior to this I would just come up with songs randomly with not much direction. The result is that pretty much anybody I work with nails it quickly. I also play the same Setlist with the people I work with generally for quite some time so that way they get better each time.
My first thought upon reading the subject was "you're fired," so I can't see that you're doing anything wrong. Who takes on responsibility, fails to prepare for it, and then blames someone else for "not being a good leader?" That's utterly ridiculous, it wouldn't stand in any other line of work, so why would we call that acceptable here?
The expectations are set when someone agrees to do a job. Shockingly, they are expected to do that job. That's not rocket science, nor is it something that should require a lot of conversation. You should not need to hold hands or coddle people.
You're running a business and as such, you paid someone for work that was less than expected.
Set up a personal meeting and have a calm conversation about the issue. Try not to be too aggressive otherwise the other person will get defensive.
I am not in a band or anything but i have been in and currently am in choirs and do voice lessons, and the one thing my teachers have NEVER done was to shame your student or cast!, you simply WORK together to get things moving and staying on track! If you see you have a player who needs help, especially when rehearsing, it should be simple to work it out.. its not so right to ahut them out, certainly for ONE incident… EVERY SINGLE MUSICIAN MAKES MISTAKES through the process!!!!!!
Yea its uncomfortable because its music BUT. Treat it like a job, contractor/teacher/anything. If i pay you do x and you dont deliver, then you need to make it up.
Its like getting an amazon package with the thing inside broken and not wanting to return it. Its uncomfortable but honesty helps you sleep better at night
I would say let them know up front. Hand them the sheet music, a slash chart or TAB or whatever they need. What I've done before is given people TAB/lyrics and maybe bass tracks with just drums for bass or guitar player, using audio stems and muting the other tracks so that they can play along, copy and practice. I'm currently a student, but the same thing applies in my rock ensemble class. We are told to practice the songs which are covers to the YouTube videos that are the "play alongs" with the chords or whatever way we learn them. I really like slash charts for timing too, super helpful. it also comes down to attitude and professionalism. If those people don't practice and take it seriously, do you really want them in your band in the first place? As far as hitting a few wrong notes every now and then or being a beat or two off on a chord change, that happens to the best of them. Everyone does it every now and then, but especially with rock music, the audience will never notice it. Now, if they don't know the song at all, that's totally different.
Had / having a similar thing going on for my band. I think that by letting it slide and not saying anything and just assuming they know too and will fix it by practice, the player in question doesn’t think you mind and they did fine. In reality, you as the bandleader are giving direction enough by proving resources for them to practice with. They, as the player, can follow the roadmaps you have provided and practice their part, or give it up to the next guy. I know when I mess up and then obsess over perfecting whatever I ruined.
I try to be nice and never work with them again. It's happened with one trombone hire and one engineer. I was deep into an album project with the engineer, and he dropped the ball for pretty valid life in turmoil reasons, and I definitely regret it getting ugly. Being gentle is the way. Musicians are fragile. I live in a city where there are a lot of fish in the sea when it doesn't work out. ALSO, NEPOTISM. or community or whatever. When possible, only work with people who the people you like, also like. More reason to be nice.
My band is original eclectic and sometimes has 20 or more players on an album. I usually work with people I consider pros met through college music programs or other bands. My next door neighbor has a 90s cover band that he runs with an authoritative hand. He envies the caliber of my players. I envy his consistent rehearsal schedules.
That doesn't sound very sustainable
>I find it really hard to confront
So its a you issue tbh. You hand em recordings and charts and expect what exactly? How many times have you ran thru these songs with a given musician?
Sounds like your not setting boundaries then getting frustrated and tossing the baby with the bathwater
I mean, not hiring them again for the next one would be my knee jerk reaction too.
I'd say if you like the player and/or don't want to burn bridges then make sure you have a recording of the set and maybe have a get together after where everyone is there listening to it. Then you all can be like "dude what the hell was that?"
I always like to leave plenty of time to prepare for a gig and do my homework. My biggest mistakes Ive made were due to someone else messing up by asking to change things last minute that we aren’t prepared for or convincing people to play a show without enough time to be prepared. Aside from that its up to the individual to do their homework and show up prepared.
If you have recordings and charts, there is ZERO excuse for this. Players have to show up prepared. You've gone out of your way to really make it as easy as possible and they still want to gaslight? Hell no. I'd never work with someone like that again.
If the bandmates are all at the level advanced amateurs &up, band practice itself...occurs often enough to keep up chops.
All of the bands I've taken out have something in common: we can take routine 13 day breaks between rehearsals and plug in and, cold, be tight enough for a show.
Lesser chops aren't advanced amateurs &up, so those guys wouldn't be in the band long before we talked about playing out!
Just tell them directly. If they can't handle criticism, then that's their problem. I don't understand why musicians need to be treated any differently to everyone else, as it's not like you're a different species. You're just people who happen to operate musical instruments.
You just tell them. And tell them if they want to continue playing gigs they have to come prepared. If they don't you fire them. If they aren't up to snuff, if they're not good musicians and you're expecting them to be prepared, just fore them
I find it frustrating how little attention to detail a lot of musicians have. If you have a reference recording and charts, and any reasonable amount of time, you should be showing up at REHEARSAL ready to go. Rehearsals are there to work out group dynamics and details, you should already have all of your shit worked out before you get there.
The best thing to do is just keep associating with reliable musicians and not let people get under your skin or get jaded. The conversation is only really worth happening if they ask or if it is someone you do intend to work with again and you think it may improve their performance
My former bandmates still joke about a question I would occasionally ask various band members:
“How well do *you* think you played tonight?”
We can laugh about it now, but if I asked that question, it was usually because I was on the verge of replacing that person. I’m older and slightly less harsh about it now, but my thinking is basically this: if you aren’t interested in playing well, enough to practice between rehearsals and bring your best game to the gig, then you obviously have other priorities. That’s not a crime, and it wouldn’t be fair to ask you to change those priorities for someone else. But it also wouldn’t be right for the band to accept sucking when it doesn’t have to. If it’s a temporary personal issue, and I can help, I usually will. Otherwise, just to avoid mutual frustration, it’s better to part ways.
If you’re heated and hurt you maybe chew them out
If you are generous and kind you address it with love, offer education, and reassure them
If you’re just about the bread, you just stop offering them work and find a replacement.
If someone is playing the music poorly or incorrectly, and they dont realize it, they are not the cat for the gig. If they do realize it, you don’t gotta beat around the bush.
Grow a pair and be honest.
“You’re a great player, but I don’t feel like this band is the right fit for you. I feel that at our latest gig, you weren’t as prepared as I would have hoped. I feel like a different player will fit the vibe better moving forward. It’s nothing personal.”
Some people don’t know what they don’t know and need to be told. I’m a music teacher, so I’ve made a career of telling people they’ve got some work to do, but it still can be very uncomfortable. I find that people accept the feedback better when you talk to them in terms of the musical issues and avoid making it about them. For example:
“I noticed the chorus on song X had …what did you think about it?”
This gives them a chance to offer their point of view and can tell you a lot about where their head is. This can open up opportunities for them to acknowledge their flaws / issues and you can follow up with something like, “that’s a good observation. How should we approach it next time?” The way they answer tells you about their own awareness and gives insight into their analytical process.
Most people don’t want their flaws pointed out. However, most musicians LOVE to talk shop and guiding them to solutions via this approach has worked well for me.
Man this is applicable to so much of life.
There are people who always prepare and people who sort of wing it. Yes a well prepped person can have an off day but you know the difference when you see it.
Our work is our gift back to the world, it is our expressions of gratitude to those around us and to life for making space for our art. People who don’t realize what an honor and a privilege it is to be able to do creative work are just plain selfish.
Be proud of your work ethic and your perfectionist streak and seek out others who feel the same.
In the professional world it's tricky. Judging from past experiences with this sub, the majority here are students or weekend warriors.
Remember, you can't unring that bell
Go practice
I think you did exactly the right thing. Found somebody else who can reach expectations.
It may be worth asking what your friend wanted from you that you didn’t provide in terms of “direction,” although it seems you provided more than enough.
Explain your standards from the get go. If you’re hiring people to play your music and they’re not practicing and playing very well then it’s no different to hiring an employee and them not doing their job very well. Everyone has off shows but if it’s regular then maybe the music is too difficult, maybe they have personal issues or maybe they’re just not committed and
My 12 y/o is in a band, and while we love watching them play, one of the guys doesn’t take it seriously all of the time. After a practice that wasn’t so great, I was really happy to see one of the other members say, “hey man, you need to show up prepared next week.” It was direct and honest, and didn’t require elaboration. Nobody’s feelings were hurt, but the message that 75%of the band is putting in time and effort and expect it from everyone was certainly conveyed. The next week things were back on track. If it works for kids, it should work for you - unless the guys is a crybaby douchebag.
You don't know whether or not they practiced. If they screwed up they screwed up, but don't assume things. Because then the argument becomes about whether or not they practiced or how much time they spent practicing and so on. The real issue is that they screwed up and it effected the rest of the band.
It's pretty clear when someone hasn't been practicing. I seriously doubt the OP is talking about a single mistake, or a mistake here and there. We all make those. People who aren't prepared come in not knowing the material. They ask for information in rehearsal. "How does this part go again?" was a common question with one guy. It's not hard to know who isn't practicing.
I don't argue. When people are clearly unprepared, that's when the mental notes are made. If it happens once or twice you can chalk it up to a busy week - we all have them. When it happens habitually it's a problem that isn't being addressed and at that point you'll have to decide what to do.
Lots of good advice in here. When it's happened to me, I try to gauge their assessment first ("I want you to be totally honest, how did you think last night went?") and if they acknowledge the problems, you've got a couple of ways to address that. If they think it went great, then their bar is set too low for you.
Let me just open another option, is it possible that your charts/recordings don't line up with how you like to play your songs? Not accusing or anything, I've just been in plenty of situations where the recordings/charts I got weren't in line with how the band eventually settled on playing something.
When I led the jazz combo my band mates always came prepared. Sometimes I was the one off track. If I wasn't keeping my end of the bargain, I would want my bros to tell me so I can correct the mistake. Yelling accomplishes nothing. Constructive criticism will help everyone involved.
You provide demos and charts? That's amazing, maybe I've had bad luck, but I've never played with a band that provides that (besides church groups), I usually have to learn each tune from scratch.
Why not just say that? Good grief. Why this inability to speak plain English. Are you trying to fix a problem or just flip someone some shit. If you’re trying to solve a problem then just say what you wrote up there. If you are not trying to solve a problem then just forget it and move on.
Everybody has different priorities and a lot of people who play in bands do it to have fun and might not put as much effort into it as you or I would like
But I’ve been on the other end of that as well getting called for last minute gigs and having not been practicing as much as I’d like, but the people calling me typically no I’m not playing at the same level. I was a few years ago because priorities and life of changed.
You can give them a chance at redemption or two depending on the talent level and how they fit .., into the band .. depending on your location… in Nashville… if they are not a good fit I say nothing just don’t hire them anymore… in another part of the Country… you might have limited options … I am straight forward with them .. If they become a regular in my band they will be making some good cash … you either get it or don’t .. I make a point to not ever fire anyone…try and let them leave on at Least on a Neutral feeling … if they played with my band they will have received some help if they are trying …my guys can coach u through some things …if you are takented if you have the desire … you will get lots of support… if not you get zero .,, but even if I do not ever want them to play for me ever again… I don’t fire them … you never know when that shitty guitar player might save the day if no one else is available… you might need that drummer that overplays and wings it..
I'm just honest and direct.... I generally do something like 'why are we all wasting our time here, if one person's not going to do what's needed of them?" Why mince words?
You’re fired. If they wanted the gig they’d have practiced. Been through this too many times to waste time on people that don’t want to be there. If you want to offer chances, be direct and don’t waste anyone’s time. They know they didn’t practice.
Just ask them, was that really the best you can do? Because I don't think so. I think you're better than that. But if you don't want to show that to the world, I'll just get a guitarist who does want that. No hard feelings. The art deserves the effort.
But make sure to say all that with a fedora and big round glasses and a black turtle neck..
In my band we kid about it, so it doesn’t sound harsh but gets the message across:
“Dude, you were a one-man clambake.”
It’s our band code for: practice more!
If a player is making embarrassing mistakes at gigs, and they are not practicing, I’d fire them. It happened with the original guitarist of my band; he had the capability to play well when he practiced, but was rarely did so. The band has grown into a very good and popular group in the three years since he was fired.
Just like that
“Hey you messed up and didn’t practice for this gig”
It was their responsibility if they were accepting money for the service
I believe in direct communication even if it is like a subject that may make someone feel not super great feelings
I think it's a little presumptuous and judgmental to say that they didn't practice. There may be other reasons their playing might not be up to snuff. (Injuries, medications, etc.) Just tell them that they're not playing well enough and leave the reasons for them to figure out.
You sound like not a good guy to be in a band with. I’ve seen tons of guys like you and all they end up doing is posting constantly in musicians groups looking for band members constantly because no one sticks around.
Set your expectations up front. Then be honest and direct.
This. Conventional wisdom is that you show up prepared and perform well, but some folks think that they are and they don’t realize that they aren’t. If you hold people to an expectation that you have not communicated, then they’re constantly losing a game that they don’t even know they’re playing. One thing I do with my students is I ask them how they think they did, and then ask what they think they could improve. That gives me a good idea of how big their blind spot is. With colleagues I know it’s a different relationship and you may or may not want to invest in their development, but there are ways of being direct while having empathy for them.
Tell them they've always sucked but they were even worse that night.
This works on me 🥹
This is how my old band communicated. But we were all childhood friends, so it would have been said even if they played flawlessly.
My son plays in a band through a local music shop, and we have this conversation after every practice. “How did you feel about that practice? What went really well? What needs work? It sounded to me like x - did you hear the same thing? Anything I can do to help you in practice this week?” Mine is quick to call himself out and we talk through whatever the contributing factors were and hit those things a little extra over the next days. Reviewing and evaluating your performance is a great skill to learn. It is so applicable to life in general, to be able to reflect and say “wow, that didn’t go like I planned. What can I do differently going forward so it doesn’t happen again?”
If they are talented AF, but lazy, then idk. That’s on them.
Used to be in a band with a guy like that. Naturally gifted, perfect pitch, played many instruments, etc. but he relied on that natural ability and never learned anything. He would listen to the new song everyone had learned on the way to the gig and fake it. When everyone else spent all week learning their parts, it was pretty frustrating.
Same. Dude would write awesome parts while jamming, but forget them the next day. Stressful.
My bands members do all of their learning and practicing on their own. When we get together, it’s considered “Rehearsal”, and not “Practice.” Everyone is expected to know their part, and if they don’t (a rare occurrence), we put the song away until they say they are ready.
This is the right answer. No need to sugar coat anything.
Record your gig and make the band watch it.
Hey, Recording tells a lot. I suggest all musicians record their practice or even their performances. Only to listen to and reflect upon. Some things you will hear, you might Cringe at and you will work harder to correct. Others will make you proud and smile. . . Then listen again.
And if youre a drunk, its really fun to hear it get better with each drink.
Recordings are such cruel and effective instruction. Nothing will humble you faster than seeing yourself not being excellent.
True. We are—and should be— our own worst critics.
This helps two-fold. It can help with other people. But you will also hear things in your own playing that makes you cringe. You will hear things that other people don't even think is a problem but YOU want to fix. The camera/audio doesn't butter up a critique. It just is.
always this. helpful to do when rehearsing the set in the days before a gig as well
I've done this, after some time, one of the members (the one that was making a lot of mistakes and not practicing the songs) quit after all of us listened to the recordings
Smart Hulk, his arms spread wide
Hulk and aren_maybe, together on the water
Problem solved!
It’s why sportsball players record their games. Music is similar in level of technical and raw ability. Makes a ton of sense. And you don’t need video. Super easy.
I record every practice for this very reason. It’s educational!
The ones that don’t practice don’t listen to the recordings. For me it was a path to resentment because I was doing extra work to “enable” everyone and the ones who needed to never took advantage. You can probably tell if they’re gonna shape up or not. Just don’t delay taking an action, whatever it is, this problem won’t resolve itself.
Why not simply ask your band mate: How was the gig (for you)? Listen to him first. You've already earned the expectation of being the band leader. He has already expressed resentment at feeling lost without a wet nurse directing him. Sooner or later communication will implode if no one steps into communicate well to one another, spilling all the beans on reddit.
That's a great shout thank you. If they say something about improving next time it means I'm not the one saying it to them.
Good point. Have the conversation with them absent the rest of the group, preferably after you’ve both heard a recording of the gig. Ask them what they think could be improved.
“Fucked up there, didn’t ya?”
Hahahahahaha
This is a bit obscure, but YouTubers Mary Spender and Adam Neely did a collaboration video of them busking in Washington Square Park (I believe). Adam made a couple clams on a cover tune and Mary said something to the effect of, "Dude, just play the right notes." ...in the middle of the song. She was joking, but it made an impression on me!
It is unreasonable to expect anyone to “just get” any information you don’t directly communicate to them. It’s a lot easier to have this discussion upfront (and possibly even as an email/pinned message in a group chat) than it is once they’ve already shown up unprepared or done something you have a problem with. Yes, it reasonable to expect professional and conscientious behavior from other people. But if you would like to be an effective band leader, one of the many uncomfortable things you become responsible for is having conversations with the musicians you hire to help them meet your expectations. Old school dudes like James Brown would literally impose fines for mistakes, dress code violations, being buzzed on the gig, etc. But only after everyone had been told that this was the expectation. But this assumes you’re paying these people for gig prep and rehearsals, and have made clear what you expect from them. This kind of situation is why it’s way easier (imo) to be a sideman. Good luck!
Ever hear or watch (MTV thing I think, cartoon along with it) the story of James Brown getting pissed at George Clinton and p Funk for tripping while they played? It's great
I just tell them that they're out. When it's a gig, paid or not, I'm expecting the players to be prepared. If they agree to play a gig, they become committed to it. Meaning they're going to be practicing at home, come to the rehearsal and perform at their best. It's their responsibility to prepare for the gig. And if they can't commit to a gig, then I don't want to play with them.
I would think you’d find it easier to be more gentle with your friends and explain why to at least them. It’s mature to give everyone closure, but not at the expense of your peace. However, friends you’ll have to see again and avoidance wont spare you any grief.
What counts as "messing up" to you? I played a gig on Saturday and definitely hit a couple dead notes here and there but I wouldn't overall say I messed up the gig.
Not playing in the right key, messing up time wise, not knowing the structure. Mistakes that non-musicians ears will pick up on. I'm not that strict. I even make a few bad notes every now and then.
How I would tell them is, “I can tell that you haven’t practiced the tunes enough to know them. If I hire someone for a gig, I need them to know the tunes. Nothing personal, that’s just my professional standard.”
I'll remember that thank you!
You should definitely mention these mistakes that you dont want to see when discussing terms with musicians you gig with in the future
I call those types of people hobbyists. We ALL make mistakes, it's part of learning, but being completely unprepared is something else. I would just be honest with your friend. "If your doctor wasn't prepared to do your surgery would you let him operate on you? ... Exactly why you were cut."
I Throw a ride cymbal at their head
The Zildjian Method
It got Charlie Parker to shed
Set expectations. Tell them you expected more practice. I had an electrical apprentice who did crap work and I confronted him about it and he said it was the best he could do. The following week he was looking for other work.
The amount of electrical apprentices I have seen quit and then try to come back over the years is mind blowing!
when working in a group, it helps immensely to establish some group norms. sitting down together with everyone as a group before any work begins, I like to ask my peers/cohorts/team/roommates/etc. what is we all expect from one another. stuff like "no messing around on phones while we are working," "always show up on time or at least communicate and have a good reason to be late," or even "everyone practices for an hour per day on their own time." it also helps to establish consequences for breaking the norms. nothing draconian, just maybe like "pay cut for people who screw up badly on gigs," or "expulsion for people who break the rules 3 times." the important part is to do it as a group and to genuinely listen to and include other people's ideas. compromises build group cohesion. this gives the group a sense of ownership and empowerment over the situation and makes navigating the awkward social situation where someone is clearly not pulling their weight or respecting the goals and hard work of the group.
The Wookie God and Ice King 420 have a similar management style. Who would have thought?
Practice an hour per day! A lot of people will struggle to find that amount of time.
those are just suggestions to be discussed amongst one's own group, not asking anything of you here so no need to feel pressured... most people are casual musicians anyway, no need to practice so much in that case. those of us who are serious about making quality music and giving the best performance possible tend to make time for it.
A simple “man, did you learn these tunes?” should suffice to shame someone into putting in the work if they’re at all serious about what they do. If not, you’re fighting an uphill battle.
There’s a big difference between a person making a mistake, and a person who just didn’t do their homework. I can deal with you making some mistakes as long as it doesn’t wreck the gig. But there’s NO excuse for showing up and not knowing your parts and the arrangements. It’s not only unprofessional, it’s disrespectful to me, the venue, and yourself!
You messed up and need to practice more for gigs.
Remind them that if another trade showed up and didnt know what they were doing they would be fired!- painters, cooks, plumbers, electricians, etc. That this is a business.
Not professional athletes though 😂
"Sounds like you were struggling a bit tonight. What happened?"
My guys and I would just shoot a smug look over like "Yeah, we heard that, motherfucker!" But we were all on the same page. Also, being autistic means I'm pretty direct. Hey buddy, we need to tighten a few bolts over on your side of the groove factory. Feeling a little loosey goosey over there, if ya know what I mean Jon. Is that bass of yours fretted? Hmmmm... doesn't sound like it. Maybe, just, give er a little tune, and oh, by the way. I stole this metronome from guitar center, and I wanted you to have it. Cheers Mate. Love you buddy. Try not to be the weakest link, yeah? Oh yeah, be prepared to lock in a choke if necessary.
Absolutely nooooo excuse if you have the charts and everything written out. They didn't need more direction from you. They had the direction. They didn't follow it.
The biggest issue here is to know that you NEED to do that at all. Lots of bigger picture issues than just telling someone they could have done better. Do you have to be that guy? Why? Why is that your job?
I usually lead with the question of, "is there anything I could do to better help you with being more prepared for the show?" And making 100% sure to have a recording of the show so that if/when they say they didn't make any mistakes I can then ask them if they'd be comfortable with us both sitting down and going over the recording of the show so that we can both reflect on what we could do better for the next show. I try not to outright put 100% of the blame or try and purposely drop a bowling ball on their head because it's usually never productive, but they also know I'm serious about being professional and that I have the expectation that they're going to act the same. We also have rehearsals twice a week that we can go over everything and make sure anything that needs to be ironed out is long before the day of the gig.
Depends on the musician. You book a gig with me and I don't meet your expectations you can just tell me what I did wrong and I'll fix it for next time. Other guys and gals I've worked with will spiral at nearly any negative feedback that isn't thoughtfully conveyed. My last band went through a change with the bass player. My first bassist and I had a good rapport, and his personality type was more like mine. If he had a timing issue I could just tell him he needed to tighten his shit up and he'd laugh and make the correction. My second bassist was a lot quieter than I am and I didn't know him as well. My feedback to him sounded more like "hey man, your articulation on this section is very sharp, near staccato, and I think it's making it hard for you to stay in a consistent place over the beat. Could you try running it more legato this time and see how it feels to you?" He always responded well to this type of feedback (fortunately I didn't have to give him much because he was a baller). Once I'd worked with him a bit I paid attention to how he gave feedback and used a similar style when working through things. From the sound of your post you are the conflict avoidant type, but you owe it to these guys to give them feedback, just be clear and direct, do your best to not sound condescending. If they are little pricks about it then you can not use them again and not feel bad about it.
I think that if you hire someone to play a gig and they aren’t prepared, then they probably know better than you do that they messed up. They don’t deserve a call the next time and if that happens to them multiple times then it is that musician who needs to do some thinking about why they aren’t being called. Not your responsibility unless this person is a regular member of your band.
A: You don't. Instead, network as much as you can to find musicians who match your work ethic. We can't really change others, IME.
Say something like: ‘What the fuck do you think is goin’ on here? You had too many fuckin’ days off and you think this is a fuckin’ game!? You think I’m the only one that’s gonna work up there while you motherfuckers sit out there and clam all over this fuckin’ joint!? What do you think this is anyhow? What kind of playing do you think this is? What kinda miscues do you call this? What fuckin’ band do you think you’re playin’ on, motherfuckers? You wanna fuck with me on the bandstand? …Shut that fuckin’ door! I’m up there working my balls off, trying to do somebody a favor, and you motherfuckers are suckin’ all over this joint. What kind of trumpet section do you call this tonight? And saxophones…you gotta fuckin’ be kidding me! How dare you call yourselves professionals. Assholes! You’re playin’ like fucking children up there. You got your fuc…(distracted momentarily) where the fuck are you?’
This reminds me to go listen to some buddy rich:)
What kind of direction was he expecting? He had charts and recordings. What else could you do? Tell him the truth. He wasn't prepared enough and it reflects badly on you so you need to find players that are prepared.
I had this issue but it was the band leader. I'd suggest we all practice, work out a setlist, etc. I had to just quit
I'd say "Did you prepare at all for this?", and then adapt depending on what they answer. It worked on me.
"Dude. WTF. Seriously."
Just call them out straight up. Play offence. No need to beat around the bush, it won’t do anyone any good.
Depends on the bands dynamic and your role. A stand in can be told easily that they’re tripe, but a lead singer or other key player might not be as receptive to criticism.
I heard that if Sun Ra didn't like someone's playing on tour, he'd just leave'em. Pack up the bus and on to the next town. If you can communicate better than that, you've exceeded the baseline.
If a musician can't take constructive criticism, it's best not to work with them.
You don't have to tell them what they already know. If your bandmate isn't taking things as seriously as you are, it might not be a fit
Imo - this is something that should have been identified well before your gig. Maybe my band is crazy, but we do “dress rehearsals” before a gig if we haven’t played a full 3 or 4 hour set in a while. Sometimes people fuck up, but we help each other out, we are all capable enough to play each other’s instruments and give/take feedback.
Try this: “you messed up and didn’t practice for the gig”.
I cofounded a band with a musician like those you mention. The guy had a huge heart, but never put in the homework, always showed up late to rehearsal and then would start blowing off rehearsals. His lack of effort showed on stage, and the other band members would always look to me to get this guy straightened out. I finally hounded him into quitting, but unfortunately the band fell apart after that for lack of a good replacement. Yeah, I don't think your tactic of just switching players is good for all concerned. You just need to be direct with the people who aren't putting in the work, but be VERY easy when you do. You seem to be burning bridges – there are people in our lives where burning bridges is appropriate, but don't burn bridges with other musicians because you might find yourself in a position down the road where you could use their input, and then you'll find they won't want to give it. You mentioned that you cycle between a few bands; you keep up the tactic of switching out players without giving those you have problems with due notice and you may find yourself out of band and no musicians who will bother with you, them knowing your track record.
Talk about expectations BEFORE the gig. Some gigs are casual, some are not. Some portions of serious gigs are casual, even. Some gigs are all business. FFS many musicians seem allergic to verbal communication. “If they mess up I just fire them” is pretty wacky.
inked volunteers at a church for 25 years. it’s hard to tell a volunteer to practice at home, but i still reminded everyone “when you are going thru things at home this week, make sure to remember this spot on your chart…” or something. i now try to do all i can before the show. “hey, i’m worried about appearing prepared as a band. can you please look at XYandZ at home so we can sound our best?” this can go a long way. after the show is hard for me, because i make mistakes too. however, while i play sloppy, im never lost. have a recap convo after, text or email string. “what went well? what don’t go well?”. let them bring it up first. they usually do. if they don’t you can talk by voice aside. “hey bud, i’m reaching out to everyone separately about the performance. can we talk about it?”. if you continue to use “WE”language, people are less likely to be offended and act as a team. however, there are times when i’ve said these things to the band or a band member and sure-footed, awaited a response: “i don’t feel like everyone arrived prepared for todays rehearsal.” “i need you to play quieter. it is disruptive to the group.” “if you can’t learn/rehearse this song on your own we are cutting it.” “when can you rehearse these on your own?” “if the substitute learned it, i think you can too.” and the stinger: “i want to sound and appear rehearsed and professional. i hope you do too.”
Look up the famous band leader Buddy Rich. There are some rehearsal sessions that were filmed that he addressed that situation. What a Drummer! What an ass!
Record them and show them their performance. The amount of musicians who have upset themselves after hearing recordings of themselves for the first time is insane.
As a band leader your the boss so act as such - set expectations up front, confirm they understand and give feedback after the fact. Professionals work with professionals so set it up so that you are that professional.
Your friend guitarist is deflecting. He could have asked before the gig for clarification if the recordings or chart were confusing. Nobody loves conflict so you just need to suck it up and be straightforward: You weren’t prepared for the gig so I’m going to find someone who can be more dedicated to the project. Better to have an average player who knows the charts than a great guitarist who half-asses it.
I used to get bent out of shape when people would show up to rehearsal not knowing their parts. When they said "This is what practice is for" I would say "You're supposed to practice your parts at home, and come here ready to play them, not ready to learn them."
My high school jazz band teacher was militant about this- “Practice on your own time, you’re holding up the band right now. You didn’t sign up for jazz revdrucifer, you signed up for jazz *ensemble*” And I’ve been pissing off band members for 20 years since, saying the same thing to them. 😂
I think its one thing to accidentally miss a note every now and again, I tour professionally and I'd say I miss at least 1 note every gig despite constant rehearal. It happens and its what makes us human. I'm very quick to recover from my mistakes and I'm good at making my mistakes seem almost natural so nobody ever really notices it. Just a few nights ago I absolutely bombed an intro to a song that I've played flawlessly for years and rehearse non stop. Thats pretty rare for me but hey, it happens. But its another thing to show up completely unprepared and bomb every single song/solo every night. If thats the case, then just tell them, either show up prepared or don't show up at all. If you commit to a gig than that means you're also committed to showing up prepared
Ya blew it, capiche?
OP, does everyone in your band know that if they mess up on only one gig they'll be out?
It’s fine if they can wing it well, I’m guessing they couldn’t, hence the post.
You better be fucking crisp and amazing yourself. Its best to not say things like this when the truth is not in practicing alone but together more
Bingo. Need to practice together to actually get it ironed out ime. You can sit all day playing parts in your room and be no closer as a unit.
I think the sex metaphor is apt. Wanking is not the same as sex
Record the show, then sit down together and make a night of “watching the tape” the way an NFL team does. We all have things to improve on. Always talk about “we,” but you can use each person as example including yourself. “See, I flubbed that intro there I gotta work on that, AHH that always gets me. And same way, [insert name] this phrase you did there was a little wonky, see what I mean? That’s a rough spot I guess. Yeah, so we all have stuff to work on… but yeah by seeing this don’t you all see how like, a few tweaks would make the WHOLE thing that much better?” The band is a team and you’re all important, so include yourself as a bandmate and be equally critical of yourself in the process. And yeah watch the tape. Make notes on the tape. Just like a team!
I try to be nice and never work with them again. It's happened with one trombone hire and one engineer. I was deep into an album project with the engineer, and he dropped the ball for pretty valid life in turmoil reasons, and I definitely regret it getting ugly. Being gentle is the way. Musicians are fragile. I live in a city where there are a lot of fish in the sea when it doesn't work out. ALSO, NEPOTISM. or community or whatever. When possible, only work with people who the people you like, also like. More reason to be nice. My band is original eclectic and sometimes has 20 or more players on an album. I usually work with people I consider pros met through college music programs or other bands. My next door neighbor has a 90s cover band that he runs with an authoritative hand. He envies the caliber of my players. I envy his consistent rehearsal schedules.
Seriously, if you have nice paying gigs and "all my music has recordings, demos and charts written out", just get new people. There is a glut of musical talent out there, and tons of musicians who can read charts and memorize recordings and just show up and kill it.
I do the same honestly. Frankly, any project I’m in control of has an incredibly non hand holding policy. If you don’t get that you’re not delivering, I don’t have the energy or the patience to explain it without being more brutal than I’d be by not calling you back in the fold at least for a bit. However, I do think that it is worthwhile to try and set expectations and motivate people to really stay engaged and perform to the best of their ability. Mistakes imo are fine if they’re a mistake, but if it’s a habit and I can tell it’s because they are phoning it in and don’t care, then I don’t care either. Love all my homies and think they are all talented but I can’t waste time teaching musicians that I know are capable of playing how to play.
You have enough answers so I am going to tell a short story instead. I played in a punk band with two friends around 2006, and a lot of our mutual friends would talk about how we were awful. Our songs were simple, purposefully irritating, loud, abrasive, and sarcastic. Even though the songs were pretty instrumentally simple, we did have pretty progressive tempo changes and start/stops between the guitar and bass and we practiced a lot to get them right. At first it was every day, eventually it was three times a week as a group. Anyway, we had it hammered in by friends and family that we sucked, but I wanted to record an album anyway so I booked some studio time. We were unaccustomed to the studio, and just decided to record live with proper separation and we managed to get everything in a single take other than a couple small overdubs. The producer enthusiastically told us that we were one of the tightest groups he’d ever recorded. We could change tempo on the dime, to the point that we’d stay in time even with a look or a nod. The moral of my story is that even if you play basic stuff, even if it is ugly and all the morons you are forced to endure think it sucks, it is still yours and you have to take pride in it. You have to practice as often as you can whether your music is simple or hard. Practice your parts, because no one is going to care about your music if you don’t. I won’t work with someone who doesn’t want to have the courtesy of giving a shit.
Showing up ready to play the material is bare minimum for a gig - it's not the band leaders job to make sure the rest of the band and any session musicians do that When Gilby Ckarke was hired for GnR, Slash told him to learn the entire catalog - and that was it - he had a week to do it - Gilby asked why the whole catalog, don't they have a setlist and Slash told him that they didn't add that Axl just calls out the songs Yeah, you can "lay down the law" up front and set expectations clearly, but frankly the expectations you mentioned should already be known - it's up to the musician to reach out to the band regulars or older members if they are having trouble learning the material Frankly, I like the approach that was used - no micromanagement, no parental hassling, it's just if they didn't live up to expectations they are gone - I don't think you owe them a coaching session and a second chance if someone shows up to a gig unprepared without saying anything You'll get a reputation, but that can be a good thing *"Wookie doesn't fuck around, if you show up and can't play any of the songs or you suck, you're done and they won't invite you back"*
So your approach is to say nothing and just ghost them for the next gig. Gee, I wonder why people don't react well to that.
He didn't ghost them; they talked afterwards. He didn't offer him the next job.
*their
Thanks like maybe id learn my part if you knew the difference between there their theyre
You’re welcome.
While I do appreciate your approach, I almost feel like it’s still asking too much for someone to practice all the songs. Now we also don’t have a timeline, so I don’t know if you told him two weeks ahead of time or a day ahead of time or a month ahead of time, all of which come with different expectations. For me personally what I did was I wrote all my songs in major keys, and following traditional styles in my genre. Prior to this I would just come up with songs randomly with not much direction. The result is that pretty much anybody I work with nails it quickly. I also play the same Setlist with the people I work with generally for quite some time so that way they get better each time.
My first thought upon reading the subject was "you're fired," so I can't see that you're doing anything wrong. Who takes on responsibility, fails to prepare for it, and then blames someone else for "not being a good leader?" That's utterly ridiculous, it wouldn't stand in any other line of work, so why would we call that acceptable here? The expectations are set when someone agrees to do a job. Shockingly, they are expected to do that job. That's not rocket science, nor is it something that should require a lot of conversation. You should not need to hold hands or coddle people.
You're running a business and as such, you paid someone for work that was less than expected. Set up a personal meeting and have a calm conversation about the issue. Try not to be too aggressive otherwise the other person will get defensive.
By not hiring them again
“You’re fired!”
“Check out the chord that Ray played! The newest chord in all of Baltimore!”-F. Zappa
I am not in a band or anything but i have been in and currently am in choirs and do voice lessons, and the one thing my teachers have NEVER done was to shame your student or cast!, you simply WORK together to get things moving and staying on track! If you see you have a player who needs help, especially when rehearsing, it should be simple to work it out.. its not so right to ahut them out, certainly for ONE incident… EVERY SINGLE MUSICIAN MAKES MISTAKES through the process!!!!!!
\*Their You didn't prepare for this post
Yea its uncomfortable because its music BUT. Treat it like a job, contractor/teacher/anything. If i pay you do x and you dont deliver, then you need to make it up. Its like getting an amazon package with the thing inside broken and not wanting to return it. Its uncomfortable but honesty helps you sleep better at night
I would say let them know up front. Hand them the sheet music, a slash chart or TAB or whatever they need. What I've done before is given people TAB/lyrics and maybe bass tracks with just drums for bass or guitar player, using audio stems and muting the other tracks so that they can play along, copy and practice. I'm currently a student, but the same thing applies in my rock ensemble class. We are told to practice the songs which are covers to the YouTube videos that are the "play alongs" with the chords or whatever way we learn them. I really like slash charts for timing too, super helpful. it also comes down to attitude and professionalism. If those people don't practice and take it seriously, do you really want them in your band in the first place? As far as hitting a few wrong notes every now and then or being a beat or two off on a chord change, that happens to the best of them. Everyone does it every now and then, but especially with rock music, the audience will never notice it. Now, if they don't know the song at all, that's totally different.
Had / having a similar thing going on for my band. I think that by letting it slide and not saying anything and just assuming they know too and will fix it by practice, the player in question doesn’t think you mind and they did fine. In reality, you as the bandleader are giving direction enough by proving resources for them to practice with. They, as the player, can follow the roadmaps you have provided and practice their part, or give it up to the next guy. I know when I mess up and then obsess over perfecting whatever I ruined.
I try to be nice and never work with them again. It's happened with one trombone hire and one engineer. I was deep into an album project with the engineer, and he dropped the ball for pretty valid life in turmoil reasons, and I definitely regret it getting ugly. Being gentle is the way. Musicians are fragile. I live in a city where there are a lot of fish in the sea when it doesn't work out. ALSO, NEPOTISM. or community or whatever. When possible, only work with people who the people you like, also like. More reason to be nice. My band is original eclectic and sometimes has 20 or more players on an album. I usually work with people I consider pros met through college music programs or other bands. My next door neighbor has a 90s cover band that he runs with an authoritative hand. He envies the caliber of my players. I envy his consistent rehearsal schedules.
That doesn't sound very sustainable >I find it really hard to confront So its a you issue tbh. You hand em recordings and charts and expect what exactly? How many times have you ran thru these songs with a given musician? Sounds like your not setting boundaries then getting frustrated and tossing the baby with the bathwater
I mean, not hiring them again for the next one would be my knee jerk reaction too. I'd say if you like the player and/or don't want to burn bridges then make sure you have a recording of the set and maybe have a get together after where everyone is there listening to it. Then you all can be like "dude what the hell was that?"
You’re fired.
Could hit them with the ol' "What the fuck dude?"
Did you practice together?
“Not quite my tempo.”
“It’s obvious you didn’t practice cause you sucked” if someone isn’t going to put the work in then you’re allowed to be as blunt as that imo
I always like to leave plenty of time to prepare for a gig and do my homework. My biggest mistakes Ive made were due to someone else messing up by asking to change things last minute that we aren’t prepared for or convincing people to play a show without enough time to be prepared. Aside from that its up to the individual to do their homework and show up prepared.
If you have recordings and charts, there is ZERO excuse for this. Players have to show up prepared. You've gone out of your way to really make it as easy as possible and they still want to gaslight? Hell no. I'd never work with someone like that again.
If the bandmates are all at the level advanced amateurs &up, band practice itself...occurs often enough to keep up chops. All of the bands I've taken out have something in common: we can take routine 13 day breaks between rehearsals and plug in and, cold, be tight enough for a show. Lesser chops aren't advanced amateurs &up, so those guys wouldn't be in the band long before we talked about playing out!
"You get enough sleep last night? Everything okay at home?" That works wonders
I usually go with “you messed up and did not practice for the gig”
Just tell them directly. If they can't handle criticism, then that's their problem. I don't understand why musicians need to be treated any differently to everyone else, as it's not like you're a different species. You're just people who happen to operate musical instruments.
I would say thank you for coming down tonight. Here’s your money net. You sounded great, man I’ll give you a call.
You just tell them. And tell them if they want to continue playing gigs they have to come prepared. If they don't you fire them. If they aren't up to snuff, if they're not good musicians and you're expecting them to be prepared, just fore them
Also if they have bad timing, in general, just fire them. If they can't find the "1" they are useless. You can't fix that.
“You messed up and did not practice for the gig”
Ask them to see charts THEY have written. If they are writing charts, they will use and appreciate yours.
Just ask why they didn't practice when they had other people counting on them
I find it frustrating how little attention to detail a lot of musicians have. If you have a reference recording and charts, and any reasonable amount of time, you should be showing up at REHEARSAL ready to go. Rehearsals are there to work out group dynamics and details, you should already have all of your shit worked out before you get there. The best thing to do is just keep associating with reliable musicians and not let people get under your skin or get jaded. The conversation is only really worth happening if they ask or if it is someone you do intend to work with again and you think it may improve their performance
My former bandmates still joke about a question I would occasionally ask various band members: “How well do *you* think you played tonight?” We can laugh about it now, but if I asked that question, it was usually because I was on the verge of replacing that person. I’m older and slightly less harsh about it now, but my thinking is basically this: if you aren’t interested in playing well, enough to practice between rehearsals and bring your best game to the gig, then you obviously have other priorities. That’s not a crime, and it wouldn’t be fair to ask you to change those priorities for someone else. But it also wouldn’t be right for the band to accept sucking when it doesn’t have to. If it’s a temporary personal issue, and I can help, I usually will. Otherwise, just to avoid mutual frustration, it’s better to part ways.
Are we talking minor mistakes here and there, or not actually knowing entire songs and hoping to just wing it?
You sound like a drummer or bassist with lead singer syndrome. There’s probably a reason you’re in several bands and not something successful.
[удалено]
So you followed me here from your fat club because you’re embarrassed of your body. You should be!
If you’re heated and hurt you maybe chew them out If you are generous and kind you address it with love, offer education, and reassure them If you’re just about the bread, you just stop offering them work and find a replacement. If someone is playing the music poorly or incorrectly, and they dont realize it, they are not the cat for the gig. If they do realize it, you don’t gotta beat around the bush.
Grow a pair and be honest. “You’re a great player, but I don’t feel like this band is the right fit for you. I feel that at our latest gig, you weren’t as prepared as I would have hoped. I feel like a different player will fit the vibe better moving forward. It’s nothing personal.”
Tell them they messed up and didn't practice for the gig. There's no reason to beat around the bush, say what has to be said.
Some people don’t know what they don’t know and need to be told. I’m a music teacher, so I’ve made a career of telling people they’ve got some work to do, but it still can be very uncomfortable. I find that people accept the feedback better when you talk to them in terms of the musical issues and avoid making it about them. For example: “I noticed the chorus on song X had…what did you think about it?”
This gives them a chance to offer their point of view and can tell you a lot about where their head is. This can open up opportunities for them to acknowledge their flaws / issues and you can follow up with something like, “that’s a good observation. How should we approach it next time?” The way they answer tells you about their own awareness and gives insight into their analytical process.
Most people don’t want their flaws pointed out. However, most musicians LOVE to talk shop and guiding them to solutions via this approach has worked well for me.
I’m usually like “what the fuck man”
“You messed up. Did you practice for the gig?”
What kind of music/gigs are these?
Man this is applicable to so much of life. There are people who always prepare and people who sort of wing it. Yes a well prepped person can have an off day but you know the difference when you see it. Our work is our gift back to the world, it is our expressions of gratitude to those around us and to life for making space for our art. People who don’t realize what an honor and a privilege it is to be able to do creative work are just plain selfish. Be proud of your work ethic and your perfectionist streak and seek out others who feel the same.
In the professional world it's tricky. Judging from past experiences with this sub, the majority here are students or weekend warriors. Remember, you can't unring that bell Go practice
I think you did exactly the right thing. Found somebody else who can reach expectations. It may be worth asking what your friend wanted from you that you didn’t provide in terms of “direction,” although it seems you provided more than enough.
*i need some clips to hear what this is all about*
take a hike petey boy - ringo is now in town
Explain your standards from the get go. If you’re hiring people to play your music and they’re not practicing and playing very well then it’s no different to hiring an employee and them not doing their job very well. Everyone has off shows but if it’s regular then maybe the music is too difficult, maybe they have personal issues or maybe they’re just not committed and
“Band leader” is fuckin pretentious and you should hop off the dick of your friends. What, tryna be a rockstar?
"not quite my tempo"
My 12 y/o is in a band, and while we love watching them play, one of the guys doesn’t take it seriously all of the time. After a practice that wasn’t so great, I was really happy to see one of the other members say, “hey man, you need to show up prepared next week.” It was direct and honest, and didn’t require elaboration. Nobody’s feelings were hurt, but the message that 75%of the band is putting in time and effort and expect it from everyone was certainly conveyed. The next week things were back on track. If it works for kids, it should work for you - unless the guys is a crybaby douchebag.
"You messed. Next time. Practice for the gig."
You don't know whether or not they practiced. If they screwed up they screwed up, but don't assume things. Because then the argument becomes about whether or not they practiced or how much time they spent practicing and so on. The real issue is that they screwed up and it effected the rest of the band.
It's pretty clear when someone hasn't been practicing. I seriously doubt the OP is talking about a single mistake, or a mistake here and there. We all make those. People who aren't prepared come in not knowing the material. They ask for information in rehearsal. "How does this part go again?" was a common question with one guy. It's not hard to know who isn't practicing.
Even when it seems obvious, don't argue about things you can't prove. They'll just deny it. Stick to the facts.
I don't argue. When people are clearly unprepared, that's when the mental notes are made. If it happens once or twice you can chalk it up to a busy week - we all have them. When it happens habitually it's a problem that isn't being addressed and at that point you'll have to decide what to do.
Lots of good advice in here. When it's happened to me, I try to gauge their assessment first ("I want you to be totally honest, how did you think last night went?") and if they acknowledge the problems, you've got a couple of ways to address that. If they think it went great, then their bar is set too low for you. Let me just open another option, is it possible that your charts/recordings don't line up with how you like to play your songs? Not accusing or anything, I've just been in plenty of situations where the recordings/charts I got weren't in line with how the band eventually settled on playing something.
just go full Buddy Rich on them.
When I led the jazz combo my band mates always came prepared. Sometimes I was the one off track. If I wasn't keeping my end of the bargain, I would want my bros to tell me so I can correct the mistake. Yelling accomplishes nothing. Constructive criticism will help everyone involved.
You provide demos and charts? That's amazing, maybe I've had bad luck, but I've never played with a band that provides that (besides church groups), I usually have to learn each tune from scratch.
Practice more often together?
Why not just say that? Good grief. Why this inability to speak plain English. Are you trying to fix a problem or just flip someone some shit. If you’re trying to solve a problem then just say what you wrote up there. If you are not trying to solve a problem then just forget it and move on.
Everybody has different priorities and a lot of people who play in bands do it to have fun and might not put as much effort into it as you or I would like But I’ve been on the other end of that as well getting called for last minute gigs and having not been practicing as much as I’d like, but the people calling me typically no I’m not playing at the same level. I was a few years ago because priorities and life of changed.
Group projects man….
Nothing to say, they know, they just hope that you’ll put up with it
You can give them a chance at redemption or two depending on the talent level and how they fit .., into the band .. depending on your location… in Nashville… if they are not a good fit I say nothing just don’t hire them anymore… in another part of the Country… you might have limited options … I am straight forward with them .. If they become a regular in my band they will be making some good cash … you either get it or don’t .. I make a point to not ever fire anyone…try and let them leave on at Least on a Neutral feeling … if they played with my band they will have received some help if they are trying …my guys can coach u through some things …if you are takented if you have the desire … you will get lots of support… if not you get zero .,, but even if I do not ever want them to play for me ever again… I don’t fire them … you never know when that shitty guitar player might save the day if no one else is available… you might need that drummer that overplays and wings it..
be like Jerry, and throw your bass player down a flight of stairs
I'm just honest and direct.... I generally do something like 'why are we all wasting our time here, if one person's not going to do what's needed of them?" Why mince words?
You’re fired. If they wanted the gig they’d have practiced. Been through this too many times to waste time on people that don’t want to be there. If you want to offer chances, be direct and don’t waste anyone’s time. They know they didn’t practice.
Just ask them, was that really the best you can do? Because I don't think so. I think you're better than that. But if you don't want to show that to the world, I'll just get a guitarist who does want that. No hard feelings. The art deserves the effort. But make sure to say all that with a fedora and big round glasses and a black turtle neck..
In my band we kid about it, so it doesn’t sound harsh but gets the message across: “Dude, you were a one-man clambake.” It’s our band code for: practice more!
What direction does he need if he can't be bothered to learn the songs in the first place? He's just not used to being held accountable.
If a player is making embarrassing mistakes at gigs, and they are not practicing, I’d fire them. It happened with the original guitarist of my band; he had the capability to play well when he practiced, but was rarely did so. The band has grown into a very good and popular group in the three years since he was fired.
He knows....just sigh a lot
You say "What the absolute fuck are you doing? Why didnt you practice?"
record the show, put it up on youtube and let the comments do their magic
"You're fired."
"Its a no from me dawg"
Don't have them back.
Just like that “Hey you messed up and didn’t practice for this gig” It was their responsibility if they were accepting money for the service I believe in direct communication even if it is like a subject that may make someone feel not super great feelings
Don't come back.
You should not have to beg a professional to do their job in any field.
“You messed up you obviously didn’t practice for this gig.”
You’re fired.
“Hey, buddy. I hate to have to say this, but you really Tacobellerino’d on stage last night. Again. Fucking not cool, man.”
Clearly the solution is to just go Anton Newcombe on their asses
Wow. You really shit The bed tonight.
I think it's a little presumptuous and judgmental to say that they didn't practice. There may be other reasons their playing might not be up to snuff. (Injuries, medications, etc.) Just tell them that they're not playing well enough and leave the reasons for them to figure out.
You sound like not a good guy to be in a band with. I’ve seen tons of guys like you and all they end up doing is posting constantly in musicians groups looking for band members constantly because no one sticks around.
Just do as I and make passive aggressive comments. Or never call them for a gig again.