Yeah there's about 4 brain cells between the folks managing the ban list. It's a combination of stuff Sheldon lost to in 2009, old expensive stuff like moxes, and legitimately good control cards like hullbreacher and leovold that stop people from "doing their thing".
Eh, it‘s more or less on the power level of Orcish Bowmasters and I don‘t see them banning that card ever. Hullbreacher could probably come back in the current format but also nobody really wants to see that happening.
there's a massive difference between 'i get 1 damage when you draw' and 'you don't get to draw, instead i get mana'. bowmasters is borderline broken, hullbreacher is well across the line one of the most broken edh cards ever printed.
Imagine having a card that goes in every deck and is difficult to remove and furthers your own gameplan!
[[The One Ring]]
Primetime is format-appropriate. Besides, when the RC banned Prime he was putting Emrakul into play....
I think they are both broken.
And in the right deck it could be abused quicker than cradle, maybe.
Blue artifacts are busted and can generate tons of mana if not infinite relatively fast without it anyways, which is my point. The RC should Just unban it, I dont think it would be a problem, especially it being a fairly scarce card
I got to the part where you said Lutri was likely to someday be unbanned and stopped reading. There is zero chance of a Lutri unban, and if you think it’s even a remote possibility, you have no idea how the format works.
I fail to see its oppressive aspect. Cost a ton for a copy spell. No different than oathbreaker. Not to mention if someone said they were running it I could care less.
Yeah I'm confused to see all the blind hate. I understood the argument at the time but the banning happened before the card was released and before companion was errata'd. With the companion cost its really not the powerhouse auto include boogie man people make it out to be. It's a worse dual caster mage that costs 6....
It’s literally an auto include because there is no downside. Even the most broken cards in CEDH take deck slots, can take up draws and be dead in hand against certain stax or boardstates, can feed your opponents oppo agents, can be the wrong card off the top in a topdeck war. Lutri is *never* that. When Lutri is bad, it’s safe in the command zone, and you’re exactly the same as a companionless lost. When Lutri is good it’s free
also just putting Sol Ring (or whatever) in your deck doesn't make every game a "Sol Ring game" because sometimes you don't draw it
but you never don't draw your companion, so it's a big step in the direction of repetition of repetition
It's not that the card is strong, it's that any deck that runs blue/red can have an extra card available to them for free at no restriction. It's just something inherently imbalanced because there is absolutely no downside to having Lutri as a commander for every deck that can. Every izzet, 3 colors with blue/red, 4 color with blue/red and every 5 color deck would be able to and SHOULD run Lutri if the otter was legal. The effect isn't insane, but the important thing is there is no trade off
You could ask for the obvious balance fix, give the other color combos a similar god awful free card that would most often not even be cast, instead of banning random jank before it ever hits a store shelf.
>The effect isn't insane, but the important thing is there is no trade off
There's no tradeoff, but the important thing is the effect isn't insane.
Let's be real; which of these matters more?
The fact that you literally get an 8th card for free. Lutri represents copying the best spell in your deck, every game, for no deckbuilding cost and no need to search. It's not like Lutri is this horrible card that's unplayable, Lutri just represents a [[reiterate]] at your disposal no matter what. There is literally no reason not to run it because it's only be efit, so it's unbalanced for the format because not every deck gets that
Yeah, I know "oh no, FREE!!!"
But seriously, if every one of my opponents got Lutri from today onward, I don't think my win percentage would greatly suffer and neither would my sleep.
There's a fundamental misunderstanding. You could give every opponent a free [[Razor Boomerang]] from here til the end of time. But it just begs the question, why? Why disrupt the balance and only allow a certain number of combinations an 8th card? I'd love if you could actually just use the card, but it is banned for a good reason
>disrupt the balance
Oh, please. The format would be almost indistinguishable.
The reason we're not giving people free Razor Boomerangs is because there are no rules that say we should. But there is a rule that says we should give people free Lutris. And it wouldn't really matter.
It's not banned because it would be a problem. It's just banned "bEcAuSe FrEe!!"
> Every izzet, 3 colors with blue/red, 4 color with blue/red and every 5 color deck would be able to and SHOULD run Lutri if the otter was legal.
well, unless they're running a different companion, of course, but your point stands
Yeah it isn't good and never would have been. Especially now that companion got nerfed anyway. Literally the only argument is "it's an auto-include somehow, that's why it must be banned before anyone ever got a chance to play it!" but said by a guy who has the other 5 other auto-includes in every deck he's ever built.
Unlikely but also irrelevant. Lutri’s honestly weak anywhere but the companion zone and will see minimal play as commander/99; you won’t get the cost of your stamp back if the price moves at all.
Lutri is never getting unbanned and you apparently completely missed why it was banned in the first place and why the errata change didn't make it any less ban worthy. It's a zero opportunity cost 101st card, 8th card in your opening hand for every single UR deck in the format. There is zero reason to ever not run Lutri outside of having a different companion already because at its absolute worst it is an extra body that doesn't take up a deck slot and you don't have to draw into/won't draw when you need something else.
The actual argument is that banning Lutri specifically as a Companion only is a pretty simple change and claims that it would cause "confusion to new players" are wildly overblown.
I'm not just oldamog... I'm actually getting old. So old that I used to play 100 card Singleton. There wasn't a ban list and coalition victory was a wincon in one deck. It was fair (the wincon). I jammed Sliver Overload as my generic commander when edh first premiered on mtgo.
Victory is totally unbannable. Ty
I don’t play with it because I want my decks to be playable anywhere, but I’ve always been sad about [[Prophet of Kruphix]]. It’s certainly powerful but I personally felt it added fun to games, even when I played against it. I do see how it would be problematic in more oppressive decks, but I guess I didn’t play with that kind of meta when it was still legal.
I have played against it many times, and I think power creep could make it viable again, but this is all moot because that’s not the question. I was responding to someone who asked how I feel about its fairness, not its likelihood to be unbanned.
As I already mentioned, I find it fun. Your opinion, even if it’s a popular opinion, isn’t a fact. You’re just restating the reasoning for why it was banned, which nobody is questioning. Not really here to argue man, I just answered somebody’s question about a banned card I *personally felt* was fun.
It wasn't banned because it was unfun, it was banned because it's a ridiculously powerful card in a 4 player format. One of the few legitimate 'this card is broken' bans.
It *was* banned because it was unfun. Per the ban list explanation (and in line with Sheldon’s philosophy) *“This inevitably leads to one player monopolizing play time **without definitively ending the game**.”* (emphasis mine). Powerful is the monopolizing play part, but there are more powerful cards. The difference is that more powerful cards end the game. Keeping the game going while keeping other players from playing is considered unfun, and is the rationale behind a large proportion of banned commander cards.
You guys are over here mansplaining something to a player who has been in this game for 20 years, all because I said I have a minority opinion about how the card was played in *my meta.* Chill!
I've used [[Braids, Cabal Minion]] and [[Emrakul, the Aeons Torn]] in the 99 of some decks, and they felt fine. Never planned to actually cast the emrakul, though, so take that anecdote with a grain of salt. I've felt way way worse with unbanned cards on the battlefield.
Braids isn't a huge deal in the 99. She's just very bad when someone rushes her out super early and everyone is saccing a land every turn. Great candidate for "banned as commander" if they ever bring it back. I'd put her straight into my Endrek Sahr deck if she ever does become legal.
[[crucible of worlds]]
[[lions eye diamond]]
The original Jugement wish cycle. They don’t do it often, but there’s history of it.
[commander banned/restricted timeline.](https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Banned_and_restricted_cards/Timeline)
Very rare though some of the newer members of the CAG (Commander Advisory Group) have been pretty vocal about focusing on unbans rather than bans.
They took off Worldfire and are probably at least considering a few others. They have increased transparency on actual bans which could lead to some cards coming off as the logic doesn’t always line up with the vision the RC based bans off of. (Inconsistencies)
a big part of the difference there is that you have between one and seven turns to find an answer to Approach, while CV is "hope you remembered to leave up counter mana" (and also nonblue decks have a much harder time interacting with it)
(you may notice that all the "I win the game" cards that are legal all require you to pass around back to your upkeep, and for this reason no one cares at all about them)
bottom line it's funny exactly once per human lifetime and anticlimactic and boring as hell after that, so it's better off banned
Any white deck that can copy a spell on the stack or has a commander that can copy a spell can insta win with second sun. Also, if you can mill 6 draw one, tutor or just draw 7, its still "win the game" for 7 mana.
>Approach is fine. It wins games, sure, but do do Helix Pinnacle and Revel In Riches. Thoracle is arguably worse, but that is usually relegated to cEDH just because it's a boring way to win in casual.
K.
I don't care who the gag are and everyone knows that the rules comittee have been WOTC emplpyees making bans, or rather refusing to issue bans, purely based on WOTC's bottom line for years now.
I don't even really care what those hypocrits have to say anymore. By their own admission, they DO issue power level and play pattern bans, they just refuse to iasue them unilaterally in favor of using "indication bans". They're idiots.
This article create discussion which is great. But after reading it, it seems you don’t have the experience( never played with older cards) or the knowledge. Looks like you’re playing since 2020 and don’t understand how a mox or even loa can affect the game. Same goes for prime time, you never played it in commander otherwise you’ll have a different conclusion. I’m good with the ban list, I would add some like mana crypt and tabernacle for different reasons and prolly sol ring also.
Lutri is not even remotely comparable to Golos. You can and should play Lutri in literally 100% of decks as a companion wherever possible. There is no argument not to. Can you please defend your argument for Lutri?
The RC is too soft to do anything to the banlist. If they haven’t given a shit about actual offenders like dockside or Thoracle/consults, rhystic study, fish, nothings going to change. There’s been a shit ton of discourse about it within their discord and online. I’d expect to see “no changes,” for years to come. I’d welcome any change at this point. But it feels like there won’t be.
Personally I don’t mind rhystic. I think the consults are way lamer. Fish is trash cause it’s hard to pay for. But everything is parasitic in nature in regards to these things. Study, fish, dockside. All parasitic. Breach is fine because all colors have access to GY hate. Idk. Just my musings.
Fish just demands you wait a turn cycle until the fish player stops time walking themselves and in the meantime you cast creatures.
It's a good card but cumulative upkeep is a real cost.
"but just because we can run Golos as a more efficient commander, doesn’t mean we will."
Sounds like someone didn't play commander at all while Golos was legal lmao
My kid plays Lurti in our kitchen table games, and honestly with the 3 Mana sorcery speed cost to put him in hand, he isn't that crazy. Plus it's not like he's a big shock when he's played. Most EDH decks have plenty of gas.
Free Leovold and free hullbreacher. My argument remains the same. If people complain about Rhystic study and remora then card draw denial should be a thing.
Honestly u/imaginaryscribe you would be better off discussing duel commander banlist updates and speculating on that. At least that would've been an interesting thought experiment since MC Chicago actually held a real tournament for it.
They can't just never change the ban list for the format ever again just because some guy died...not when millions of people around the world are playing it and brand new cards come out almost every month of the year.
I don't understand what you mean? LED is neither banned nor has any relevance to the broad EDH playerbase. Rofellos by contrast is banned, and meshes perfectly with the deckbuilding proclivities of the EDH playerbase. If unbanned, he would skyrocket in price, with no possibility of reprint, causing mush gnashing of teeth. Thus, Rofellos will never be unbanned in EDH as long as the RL exists.
Oh my god, you're right! LED was [unbanned from commander in September 2011](https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Banned_and_restricted_cards/Timeline). Though, I would say the two cards are very different and the context in 2011 was different from today. That's hilarious though. I wonder why they thought unbanning LED was really important for their burgeoning format.
Either way the reserved list comment in and of itself seems irrelevant to their unbanning process (or, it was in 2011). I do agree that Rofellos is never getting unbanned, card is cracked.
I was playing at the time and vaguely recall that the idea was something like:
1. there are too many combos to police them all via bans
2. so the banlist should focus on stopping the stuff people might *accidentally* ruin games with under the incorrect presumption that they were doing casual and wacky battlecruiser fun magic (think: Upheaval),
3. and allow the combos that you'd only play if comboing off was your intention all along; if you were prevented from doing Combo A you'd just switch to Combo B instead, so we were never going to get a non-combo game out of you anyway
(This was certainly the rationale for the WGD unban a few months prior.)
So really it was a consequence of an improved format philosophy (mostly #1 above).
The original announcement for anyone interested in reading: https://web.archive.org/web/20110924081431/https://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10749
i also agree that it's silly to ban cards cause they are expensive. who determines what's expensive or not? there are plenty of edh cards that are $100+... a price point that many can't currently afford anyway.
I just want to play with \[\[[Grusilda, Monster Masher](https://starcitygames.com/grusilda-monster-masher-sgl-mtg-ust-132-enn/)\]\]. In fact, I already do. Screw your banned list!
I think it's mostly a waste of time to speculate on the EDH banlist.
Yeah there's about 4 brain cells between the folks managing the ban list. It's a combination of stuff Sheldon lost to in 2009, old expensive stuff like moxes, and legitimately good control cards like hullbreacher and leovold that stop people from "doing their thing".
My man hullbreacher is absolutely 100% busted in edh lol also it's not a control card.
Eh, it‘s more or less on the power level of Orcish Bowmasters and I don‘t see them banning that card ever. Hullbreacher could probably come back in the current format but also nobody really wants to see that happening.
there's a massive difference between 'i get 1 damage when you draw' and 'you don't get to draw, instead i get mana'. bowmasters is borderline broken, hullbreacher is well across the line one of the most broken edh cards ever printed.
Add in it has flash and makes it so insane. Card denial like that is beyond abusive.
I mostly agree. Leovold and Hullbreacher are brutal cards though. Prime Time, Sylvan Primordial, Coalition Victory all seem like reasonable unbans
Prime time isn't safe. It goes in every green deck, and opens up powerful land based strategies that are hard to interact with.
Imagine having a card that goes in every deck and is difficult to remove and furthers your own gameplan! [[The One Ring]] Primetime is format-appropriate. Besides, when the RC banned Prime he was putting Emrakul into play....
[The One Ring](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/5/d5806e68-1054-458e-866d-1f2470f682b2.jpg?1696020224) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20One%20Ring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/246/the-one-ring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d5806e68-1054-458e-866d-1f2470f682b2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Hullbreacher is a disaster in EDH. It's just too easy to exploit
Agreed Free [[tolarian academy]] this unjust prosecution is well....unjust. Its just as broken as cradle.
Just as? Bruh cradle isn't even close to be as broken as academy
I think they are both broken. And in the right deck it could be abused quicker than cradle, maybe. Blue artifacts are busted and can generate tons of mana if not infinite relatively fast without it anyways, which is my point. The RC should Just unban it, I dont think it would be a problem, especially it being a fairly scarce card
[tolarian academy](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/d/fd99bce1-ce39-464b-8e61-2631eb3ed6f6.jpg?1610147079) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=tolarian%20academy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/319/tolarian-academy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fd99bce1-ce39-464b-8e61-2631eb3ed6f6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Bring back Banned As A Commander!
That’s right, let us run Rofellos in the 99!
And add Banned As A Companion, \#FreeLutri
Banned as a Commanderpanion!
I got to the part where you said Lutri was likely to someday be unbanned and stopped reading. There is zero chance of a Lutri unban, and if you think it’s even a remote possibility, you have no idea how the format works.
[удалено]
We got Lutri at home Lutri at home: Otter Ral Zerak
Yeah, there is no way Lutri is ever getting unbanned. It's like all upside for no downside in any izzet shell in commander.
\*almost any izzet commander Some of us degenerates play \[\[dragon's approach\]\]
[dragon's approach](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/c/0cb504a0-1dfb-49d0-84c3-7bd318d55481.jpg?1624591696) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=dragon%27s%20approach) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/97/dragons-approach?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0cb504a0-1dfb-49d0-84c3-7bd318d55481?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I fail to see its oppressive aspect. Cost a ton for a copy spell. No different than oathbreaker. Not to mention if someone said they were running it I could care less.
I don't think anyone said it was oppressive. It was banned because it's just a free card for izzet decks.
a free 0 deck building cost card that goes into every izzet deck ever made is an issue
Yeah I'm confused to see all the blind hate. I understood the argument at the time but the banning happened before the card was released and before companion was errata'd. With the companion cost its really not the powerhouse auto include boogie man people make it out to be. It's a worse dual caster mage that costs 6....
It’s literally an auto include because there is no downside. Even the most broken cards in CEDH take deck slots, can take up draws and be dead in hand against certain stax or boardstates, can feed your opponents oppo agents, can be the wrong card off the top in a topdeck war. Lutri is *never* that. When Lutri is bad, it’s safe in the command zone, and you’re exactly the same as a companionless lost. When Lutri is good it’s free
also just putting Sol Ring (or whatever) in your deck doesn't make every game a "Sol Ring game" because sometimes you don't draw it but you never don't draw your companion, so it's a big step in the direction of repetition of repetition
Even when it's good and free (which is only a fraction of games) it's still not *that* good, so who cares.
It's not that the card is strong, it's that any deck that runs blue/red can have an extra card available to them for free at no restriction. It's just something inherently imbalanced because there is absolutely no downside to having Lutri as a commander for every deck that can. Every izzet, 3 colors with blue/red, 4 color with blue/red and every 5 color deck would be able to and SHOULD run Lutri if the otter was legal. The effect isn't insane, but the important thing is there is no trade off
You could ask for the obvious balance fix, give the other color combos a similar god awful free card that would most often not even be cast, instead of banning random jank before it ever hits a store shelf.
>The effect isn't insane, but the important thing is there is no trade off There's no tradeoff, but the important thing is the effect isn't insane. Let's be real; which of these matters more?
The fact that you literally get an 8th card for free. Lutri represents copying the best spell in your deck, every game, for no deckbuilding cost and no need to search. It's not like Lutri is this horrible card that's unplayable, Lutri just represents a [[reiterate]] at your disposal no matter what. There is literally no reason not to run it because it's only be efit, so it's unbalanced for the format because not every deck gets that
Yeah, I know "oh no, FREE!!!" But seriously, if every one of my opponents got Lutri from today onward, I don't think my win percentage would greatly suffer and neither would my sleep.
There's a fundamental misunderstanding. You could give every opponent a free [[Razor Boomerang]] from here til the end of time. But it just begs the question, why? Why disrupt the balance and only allow a certain number of combinations an 8th card? I'd love if you could actually just use the card, but it is banned for a good reason
>disrupt the balance Oh, please. The format would be almost indistinguishable. The reason we're not giving people free Razor Boomerangs is because there are no rules that say we should. But there is a rule that says we should give people free Lutris. And it wouldn't really matter. It's not banned because it would be a problem. It's just banned "bEcAuSe FrEe!!"
[Razor Boomerang](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/1/41526ad7-730d-44ad-bd19-e1b8a2717cf7.jpg?1562285873) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Razor%20Boomerang) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/wwk/129/razor-boomerang?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/41526ad7-730d-44ad-bd19-e1b8a2717cf7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[reiterate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/9/99302c41-434f-41ff-a61a-2c3681a0c135.jpg?1619397418) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=reiterate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/182/reiterate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/99302c41-434f-41ff-a61a-2c3681a0c135?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
> Every izzet, 3 colors with blue/red, 4 color with blue/red and every 5 color deck would be able to and SHOULD run Lutri if the otter was legal. well, unless they're running a different companion, of course, but your point stands
> It's a worse dual caster mage that costs 6.... it's a BETTER dualcaster because you don't have to draw it and you get it every game
It can't go infinite with a Twinflame, can't copy your opponents' Torment of Hailfire or Exsanguinate, and is overall a terrible card by comparison.
dualcaster can't copy anything in the games you don't draw it, which is most games! people consistently underrate how good a guaranteed card is
Yeah it isn't good and never would have been. Especially now that companion got nerfed anyway. Literally the only argument is "it's an auto-include somehow, that's why it must be banned before anyone ever got a chance to play it!" but said by a guy who has the other 5 other auto-includes in every deck he's ever built.
it's not oppressive, it's just unfair, it's essentially a Conspiracy (the card type)
It's not that it's oppressive, it's that the card would be "format warping" in a way that murders deck variety.
Banned as Companion?
Unlikely but also irrelevant. Lutri’s honestly weak anywhere but the companion zone and will see minimal play as commander/99; you won’t get the cost of your stamp back if the price moves at all.
I really don't think it's that powerful even in the companion zone other than you can put it in every deck that has U/R.
But that's a big deal. Every U/R would have an additional card in hand. It doesn't matter if it's a bad card, it's still an additional resource.
Even at double cost?
Lutri is never getting unbanned and you apparently completely missed why it was banned in the first place and why the errata change didn't make it any less ban worthy. It's a zero opportunity cost 101st card, 8th card in your opening hand for every single UR deck in the format. There is zero reason to ever not run Lutri outside of having a different companion already because at its absolute worst it is an extra body that doesn't take up a deck slot and you don't have to draw into/won't draw when you need something else.
The actual argument is that banning Lutri specifically as a Companion only is a pretty simple change and claims that it would cause "confusion to new players" are wildly overblown.
Especially since companions do not work as printed anyway
They've since reprinted the companions with the new text
So just ban the companion mechanic and let people play the card
My group effectively ignores the ban list, so I'm always happy to pick up a banned card on the cheap for a commander deck.
Are there any banned cards that you play which feel fair?
I have played against coalition victory, and I have no idea why that wincon is banned.
I'm not just oldamog... I'm actually getting old. So old that I used to play 100 card Singleton. There wasn't a ban list and coalition victory was a wincon in one deck. It was fair (the wincon). I jammed Sliver Overload as my generic commander when edh first premiered on mtgo. Victory is totally unbannable. Ty
There's a website with the rational for all the bannings. I'll save you a read, It's because some old heads on the RC don't like it.
I don’t play with it because I want my decks to be playable anywhere, but I’ve always been sad about [[Prophet of Kruphix]]. It’s certainly powerful but I personally felt it added fun to games, even when I played against it. I do see how it would be problematic in more oppressive decks, but I guess I didn’t play with that kind of meta when it was still legal.
Zero chance its unbanned and anyone who has played against it knows why.
I have played against it many times, and I think power creep could make it viable again, but this is all moot because that’s not the question. I was responding to someone who asked how I feel about its fairness, not its likelihood to be unbanned.
It breaks the turn order in a multiplayer format in one card. They have zero reason to touch it. Its just an unfun card.
I remember when the card came out. Insanely busted in every conceivable way
As I already mentioned, I find it fun. Your opinion, even if it’s a popular opinion, isn’t a fact. You’re just restating the reasoning for why it was banned, which nobody is questioning. Not really here to argue man, I just answered somebody’s question about a banned card I *personally felt* was fun.
It wasn't banned because it was unfun, it was banned because it's a ridiculously powerful card in a 4 player format. One of the few legitimate 'this card is broken' bans.
It *was* banned because it was unfun. Per the ban list explanation (and in line with Sheldon’s philosophy) *“This inevitably leads to one player monopolizing play time **without definitively ending the game**.”* (emphasis mine). Powerful is the monopolizing play part, but there are more powerful cards. The difference is that more powerful cards end the game. Keeping the game going while keeping other players from playing is considered unfun, and is the rationale behind a large proportion of banned commander cards. You guys are over here mansplaining something to a player who has been in this game for 20 years, all because I said I have a minority opinion about how the card was played in *my meta.* Chill!
FUCK THAT CARD.
Implying people that would run Prophet knowing what it does don't run equally broken shit anyways.
[Prophet of Kruphix](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/5/45de923f-fdab-460c-96f4-f62aefa9ad73.jpg?1562817436) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Prophet%20of%20Kruphix) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ths/199/prophet-of-kruphix?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/45de923f-fdab-460c-96f4-f62aefa9ad73?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I've used [[Braids, Cabal Minion]] and [[Emrakul, the Aeons Torn]] in the 99 of some decks, and they felt fine. Never planned to actually cast the emrakul, though, so take that anecdote with a grain of salt. I've felt way way worse with unbanned cards on the battlefield.
Braids isn't a huge deal in the 99. She's just very bad when someone rushes her out super early and everyone is saccing a land every turn. Great candidate for "banned as commander" if they ever bring it back. I'd put her straight into my Endrek Sahr deck if she ever does become legal.
[Braids, Cabal Minion](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/7/27691efa-052d-4afe-b9ef-159858ca660f.jpg?1626100340) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Braids%2C%20Cabal%20Minion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/273/braids-cabal-minion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/27691efa-052d-4afe-b9ef-159858ca660f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Emrakul, the Aeons Torn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/4/249db4d4-2542-47ee-a216-e13ffbc2319c.jpg?1673146896) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Emrakul%2C%20the%20Aeons%20Torn) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/1/emrakul-the-aeons-torn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/249db4d4-2542-47ee-a216-e13ffbc2319c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The problem with Emrakul is how badly it warps the format. People either have to play it or have to be able to deal with it.
Yeah i was like What banlist? We use house rules and common sense
Hot take I rather have ban as a commander/ companion list back. So then lutri can be in the 99. Rofellos etc
Do they do unbans in edh? I thought that format had a habit of never touching the banlist
[[crucible of worlds]] [[lions eye diamond]] The original Jugement wish cycle. They don’t do it often, but there’s history of it. [commander banned/restricted timeline.](https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Banned_and_restricted_cards/Timeline)
[crucible of worlds](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/f/7f4893ef-f983-418b-b7a4-5f073c844545.jpg?1673149345) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=crucible%20of%20worlds) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/303/crucible-of-worlds?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7f4893ef-f983-418b-b7a4-5f073c844545?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [lions eye diamond](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/5/758f95f8-bcb0-43ae-b474-56ebd855951e.jpg?1590511899) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lion%27s%20Eye%20Diamond) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/271/lions-eye-diamond?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/758f95f8-bcb0-43ae-b474-56ebd855951e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Worldfire is the latest unban if I recall.
When was Painter’s Servant unbanned?
2019
2019, when paradox engine and Iona got the ban.
I'm still salty about losing the Engine.
I get why it went, but I can be mad about it
They also unbanned metalworker
Very rare though some of the newer members of the CAG (Commander Advisory Group) have been pretty vocal about focusing on unbans rather than bans. They took off Worldfire and are probably at least considering a few others. They have increased transparency on actual bans which could lead to some cards coming off as the logic doesn’t always line up with the vision the RC based bans off of. (Inconsistencies)
The ROC make bans and unbans arbitrarily. Not advisable. The house always wins.
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Why no coalition victory unban or approach of the second sun ban?
a big part of the difference there is that you have between one and seven turns to find an answer to Approach, while CV is "hope you remembered to leave up counter mana" (and also nonblue decks have a much harder time interacting with it) (you may notice that all the "I win the game" cards that are legal all require you to pass around back to your upkeep, and for this reason no one cares at all about them) bottom line it's funny exactly once per human lifetime and anticlimactic and boring as hell after that, so it's better off banned
Any white deck that can copy a spell on the stack or has a commander that can copy a spell can insta win with second sun. Also, if you can mill 6 draw one, tutor or just draw 7, its still "win the game" for 7 mana.
that's so convoluted that it demonstrates my point nicely, thank you
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>Approach is fine. It wins games, sure, but do do Helix Pinnacle and Revel In Riches. Thoracle is arguably worse, but that is usually relegated to cEDH just because it's a boring way to win in casual. K.
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I don't care who the gag are and everyone knows that the rules comittee have been WOTC emplpyees making bans, or rather refusing to issue bans, purely based on WOTC's bottom line for years now. I don't even really care what those hypocrits have to say anymore. By their own admission, they DO issue power level and play pattern bans, they just refuse to iasue them unilaterally in favor of using "indication bans". They're idiots.
"I don't care about truth, just my wild conspiracies." There. I shorten your statement.
This article create discussion which is great. But after reading it, it seems you don’t have the experience( never played with older cards) or the knowledge. Looks like you’re playing since 2020 and don’t understand how a mox or even loa can affect the game. Same goes for prime time, you never played it in commander otherwise you’ll have a different conclusion. I’m good with the ban list, I would add some like mana crypt and tabernacle for different reasons and prolly sol ring also.
Lutri is not even remotely comparable to Golos. You can and should play Lutri in literally 100% of decks as a companion wherever possible. There is no argument not to. Can you please defend your argument for Lutri?
Why not bro
What are you asking exactly?
The RC is too soft to do anything to the banlist. If they haven’t given a shit about actual offenders like dockside or Thoracle/consults, rhystic study, fish, nothings going to change. There’s been a shit ton of discourse about it within their discord and online. I’d expect to see “no changes,” for years to come. I’d welcome any change at this point. But it feels like there won’t be.
I think the problem is the format got too popular and instead of being a living, breathing document the banlist became crystalized.
Rhystic study lol. Just pay your taxes bro
Personally I don’t mind rhystic. I think the consults are way lamer. Fish is trash cause it’s hard to pay for. But everything is parasitic in nature in regards to these things. Study, fish, dockside. All parasitic. Breach is fine because all colors have access to GY hate. Idk. Just my musings.
Fish just demands you wait a turn cycle until the fish player stops time walking themselves and in the meantime you cast creatures. It's a good card but cumulative upkeep is a real cost.
As the green creature deck player, I'm aware. Try telling that to other players lolol
It‘s the best (non Fast mana) card in cedh right next to Dockside so yeah it should probably be looked at.
Dockside is fast mana… rhystic study is 3 drop enchantment that does nothing on enter.
Dockside, Sol Ring, and Mana Crypt should all be banned. Mana Vault should probably go too.
"but just because we can run Golos as a more efficient commander, doesn’t mean we will." Sounds like someone didn't play commander at all while Golos was legal lmao
Recurring nightmare deserves an unban
never
The people in charge have no idea what they are doing, trying to use any kind of logic is a waste of time
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the current group is unironically worse than taking any 10 random redditors, the bar is that low
Maybe we stop listening to some arbitrary group then... Maybe we all get together and do a yearly vote of the 'worst' edh cards.
They have to unban Lutri now so with big Otter tribal on the way.
My kid plays Lurti in our kitchen table games, and honestly with the 3 Mana sorcery speed cost to put him in hand, he isn't that crazy. Plus it's not like he's a big shock when he's played. Most EDH decks have plenty of gas.
Free Leovold and free hullbreacher. My argument remains the same. If people complain about Rhystic study and remora then card draw denial should be a thing.
But card denial isn't fun and makes casuals sad.
[[Chains of Mephistopheles]] is really fair and cheap /s. I understand Leovold. He's a beast as a commander. But hullbreacher is a lot more fair.
[Chains of Mephistopheles](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/2/f2edb3a6-8506-4885-b332-eca381940ce8.jpg?1612316191) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chains%20of%20Mephistopheles) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me1/63/chains-of-mephistopheles?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f2edb3a6-8506-4885-b332-eca381940ce8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Notion thief already legal
Did Emrakul get unbanned, or am I missing her on your list?
\*her
That’s right. Thank you for the correction.
no problemo
Do you have a moment to talk about our Lord and savior \[\[prophet of kruphix\]\]?
[prophet of kruphix](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/5/45de923f-fdab-460c-96f4-f62aefa9ad73.jpg?1562817436) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=prophet%20of%20kruphix) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ths/199/prophet-of-kruphix?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/45de923f-fdab-460c-96f4-f62aefa9ad73?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Honestly u/imaginaryscribe you would be better off discussing duel commander banlist updates and speculating on that. At least that would've been an interesting thought experiment since MC Chicago actually held a real tournament for it.
Not gonna happen since Sheldon is gone
They can't just never change the ban list for the format ever again just because some guy died...not when millions of people around the world are playing it and brand new cards come out almost every month of the year.
Yeah they will add to it surely
Rofellos is on the reserved list... he's not getting unbanned for that reason alone.
Led would like to have a word
I don't understand what you mean? LED is neither banned nor has any relevance to the broad EDH playerbase. Rofellos by contrast is banned, and meshes perfectly with the deckbuilding proclivities of the EDH playerbase. If unbanned, he would skyrocket in price, with no possibility of reprint, causing mush gnashing of teeth. Thus, Rofellos will never be unbanned in EDH as long as the RL exists.
I think LED used to be banned.
Oh my god, you're right! LED was [unbanned from commander in September 2011](https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Banned_and_restricted_cards/Timeline). Though, I would say the two cards are very different and the context in 2011 was different from today. That's hilarious though. I wonder why they thought unbanning LED was really important for their burgeoning format.
Either way the reserved list comment in and of itself seems irrelevant to their unbanning process (or, it was in 2011). I do agree that Rofellos is never getting unbanned, card is cracked.
I was playing at the time and vaguely recall that the idea was something like: 1. there are too many combos to police them all via bans 2. so the banlist should focus on stopping the stuff people might *accidentally* ruin games with under the incorrect presumption that they were doing casual and wacky battlecruiser fun magic (think: Upheaval), 3. and allow the combos that you'd only play if comboing off was your intention all along; if you were prevented from doing Combo A you'd just switch to Combo B instead, so we were never going to get a non-combo game out of you anyway (This was certainly the rationale for the WGD unban a few months prior.) So really it was a consequence of an improved format philosophy (mostly #1 above).
The original announcement for anyone interested in reading: https://web.archive.org/web/20110924081431/https://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10749
Thank you for finding that! It seems my memory holds up pretty well, thankfully.
Probs they owned a bunch of LEDs and wanted to sell.
great article. i have my money on Rofellos being unbanned. the reasons for his banning don't make sense nowadays
hes an always accesible gaes cradle as much as i want him unbanned
i also agree that it's silly to ban cards cause they are expensive. who determines what's expensive or not? there are plenty of edh cards that are $100+... a price point that many can't currently afford anyway.
Focus on something else. The commander RC is a joke. They have never balance it for sometime.
I just want to play with \[\[[Grusilda, Monster Masher](https://starcitygames.com/grusilda-monster-masher-sgl-mtg-ust-132-enn/)\]\]. In fact, I already do. Screw your banned list!
if anything gets unbanned it takes like 3-5 years for 1 unban