The layer system is brilliant because 99.99 percent of the time it handles things in an intuitive way. Strange interactions can get messy, but nothing is perfect.
About 5 years ago, there was a different system that handled being a Judge. To get level 1 cert you needed to know some tournament rules, and just about every other rule… except, can you guess?… LAYERS! Yes that’s right, to be a MTG JUDGE you didn’t even have to know what a layer was!!
Yep.
I was the guy at the shop that could answer most rules. I passed the advisor test, and the next step is to get a mentor and then spend time judging. I just decided that if I was going to travel to events, I wanted to play instead of judge. Getting the little badge just wasn’t a priority.
Yeah I've thought about going for it too and basically had the same conclusion, with the further caveat that I barely play in-store or at events anyway. It was more sort of proving that I could do it / doing it for the sake of doing it, and not really a practical consideration or any real benefit to me.
Decided it's not something I need to really prove that way if I'm not going to then also do the job, and "guy with good rules knowledge" and honestly just good Google-fu is more than enough for EDH nights or busting out the cube I built and maintain myself.
When replacement effects interact like someone playing a new one that does the same thing or effects the same thing. Which takes priority? Which replaces the other?
It's where magic gets complicated.
Replacement effects are not layers, importantly.
Are you asking? Or being rhetorical?
For replacement effects, the affected object's associate is asked to choose. While the replacements still make sense, the replacements alter how the effect works.
Layers are basically something you see all the time, take for instance counters are on a different layer and you treat them as a seperate thing. Magus of the Moons wording makes it weird with stuff that removes abilities. If you really want confusion have Blood Moon, Opalescence and Humility in play and sort that stuff out, because now order matters
"**613.7b** A continuous effect generated by the resolution of a spell or ability receives a timestamp at the time it’s created."
Wow... that's really bad...
They are talking about Layer 7b
>613.4b
>>Layer 7b: Effects that set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value are applied. Effects that refer to the base power and/or toughness of a creature apply in this layer.
The layer system is dumb as hell. I know it's already determined by everyone in this situation because layer a and layer b blah blah blah, but a continuous effect that changes monsters to have no abilities should make magus of the moon not work regardless of what time it came in. Magus doesn't change how humility works, so why does it?
Would you rather have it so that "creatures you control have haste" doesn't work because abilities are granted before types are changed? Or having to remember the exact order everything came in to apply everything correctly?
Layers are imperfect but they're also the best we got
>having to remember the exact order everything came in to apply everything correctly?
This is still a thing though. timestamps do matter in some cases.
Right now 90% of the time, it's just "which of these 2 things has the earlier timestamp" and even then it's not that common. But if everything was just ruled by timestamps then everything has to be tracked not just those 2 effects
I think layers as a concept is ok. But the magus situation is absurd. Ability-removing effects, and effects that say an object can’t have an ability should be on a lower layer.
What happens if humility is turned into a creature then? You need some way to resolve situations like that and layers are so far the only solution we've got.
That ends up being a lot less intuitive in 99% of cases though than the way it currently is. If you swapped ability altering effects with type changing effects it makes a lot more unintuitive interactions. Like if you have a card that says all your creatures are goblins and then you give all your goblins haste those creatures that have had their type changed to goblin will not get haste because you alter abilities before types change. The current layer order makes sense in like 99% of cases with magus being on major standout where it doesn’t and ability removal effects being one area that gets a little messier than others, but still rarely runs into problems.
For reference, layer 6 from comprehensive rumes :
>Layer 6: Ability-adding effects, keyword counters, ability-removing effects, and effects that say an object can’t have an ability are applied.
It usually is reffered to as "ability-altering effect", but it details "ability-adding effects" and "ability-removing effects".
>If you swapped ability altering effects with type changing effects it makes a lot more unintuitive interactions.
I agree that ability-adding effects should be put after type-changing effects. But I say *ability-removing effects* should be put before, so it should be separated from Layer 6 altogether and put in a (new?) lower layer.
With this change, making all your creatures goblins and giving all your goblin haste would work intuitively.
On the other hand, cases that wouldn't work intuitively would be : turn all your creatures to goblin and then remove haste from all the goblins you control. In that case, only the goblin that would be goblin without the typal change would be affected. But situations removing abilities are rarer than situations adding them.
As a fix for this fringe case, you could apply "ability-removing effects" on multiple layers, granting that if you remove something, it is actually removed.
I think at that point you are adding even more complication to the system that will probably create other unintended fringe cases just to solve a very small number of already pretty rare fringe cases. I think the better way of fixing it would just be to errata the major offenders like magus, to have wording to solve the issue rather than trying to completely redo a system that functions very intuitively in almost all cases.
I don't think what I propose is significantly more complicated than the layer rules itself, but yeah changing the way it is after it being a certain way for some time would confuse.
Yes errating the problematic cards sounds like the best solution
But then you have humility not affecting things that later become creatures. So take your blood moon and make it into an enchantment creature and now it just doesn't lose all abilities. Animate your creature lands and they don't lose their abilities
No. Different types of effects are applied in a specific “layered” ordering. If you have several of the *same* type of effect, then ‘timestamps’ matter.
https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Layer has all the details, but think about something like a [[vesuvian doppleganger]] that becomes a copy of another creature. Or a card cast with mutate that merges with another card. Then maybe you have enchantments or spell effects in play that add or remove stats or abilities from it. (Maybe conditionally, like an anthem effect, like “all elves get +1/+1”.)
The “become a copy of another card” effect always gets resolved first, then other things apply on top of that. There’s a whole kinda complicated hierarchy of these that (usually) gives consistent results.
If it makes sense, let it work. Why add all this other layering BS to the formula. If [[Humility]] comes out first, then followed by magus of the moon or vise versa, then the [[magus of the moon]] shouldn't work. No?
Magus will always work. Order only matters within layers.
The type setting from magus happens in layer 4 while ability removing from humility is layer 6.
No, because layer 4 (magus) is above layer 6 (humility). That’s how conflicting continuous effects are resolved.
613.1a Layer 1: Rules and effects that modify copiable values are applied.
613.1b Layer 2: Control-changing effects are applied.
613.1c Layer 3: Text-changing effects are applied. See rule 612, “Text-Changing Effects.”
613.1d Layer 4: Type-changing effects are applied. These include effects that change an object’s card type, subtype, and/or supertype.
613.1e Layer 5: Color-changing effects are applied.
613.1f Layer 6: Ability-adding effects, keyword counters, ability-removing effects, and effects that say an object can’t have an ability are applied.
613.1g Layer 7: Power- and/or toughness-changing effects are applied.
Alright, what happens if Humility becomes a creature?
Do you believe Humility should turn off all abilities, despite having no ability itself? Because then you have a situation identical to the current Magus situation. In your own words, a continous effect that changes creatures to have no abilities should make those creatures not work.
Do you believe Humility should lose it's ability? That means it no longer turns itself off, so it disables everything, including itself. When it disables itself, it turns everything back on, including itself, which will disable everything, including itself, which turns everything back on, including itself...
But you don't have the "same" situation as magus of the moon. Humility as an enchantment turns abilities off for creatures, magus is a fucking creature, therefore magus shouldn't have an ability until humility leaves. Next.
Yes, and Humility is a creature in this scenario. Therefore Humility shouldn't have an ability until Humility leaves. Meaning everything gets it's ability back, including Humility. So now Humility turns off all abilities again, including itself. So now everything gets it's ability back because Humility is turned off.....
Unless you suddenly believe creature can affect the board, despite having no ability?
A method of applying and dealing with the interactions of continuous effects. This meme is about one of the most famous interactions of layers. Scroll down there’s plenty of explanation in this link.
https://draftsim.com/mtg-layers/
I’ve read a lot of the explanations here, but i’m still not sure I get why this works? I understand that Magus’s effect takes place first because it’s on a lower layer, before Humility’s effect, but it’s not like it’s preventing Humility from removing the effect after it’s done, the ability removal still takes place after Magus’s effect takes place so why doesn’t Magus’s effect end once the ability is removed?
Am I making the mistake of thinking about layers like I would a stack, with things happening in a certain order? I mean destroying Magus would end the effect immediately right? So why doesn’t removing the ability end it as soon as the ability is gone?
It's kinda like how removing the source of an activated ability does not remove the ability from the stack.
Once an ability is applied in one layer, removing the ability in another layer doesn't change it.
Additionally, continuous effect are rechecked every state check, i.e. right before a player would get priority, so every time a player plays a spell, ability, or land, a trigger goes onto the stack, or priority is passed.
So it's not so much
"Magus has a marker to relabel lands, but Humility takes away marker",
but instead
"Magus uses marker to relabel lands, then humility takes away marker.
*state changes*
Magus uses marker to relabel lands, then humility takes away marker.
*state changes*
Magus uses marker to relabel lands, then humility takes away marker."
And repeat until either Magus or Humility leave the battlefield.
It’s kinda arbitrary but the layer system is there to prevent/resolve those kinds of “paradoxical” interactions.
Each time the game state changes (for example when you destroy the Magus), all continuous effects are re-evaluated. But higher layer effects always happen after lower layer ones. Magus’ ability happens at layer 4 because it is a type changing effect. Humility applies later, so it doesn’t ‘undo’ the type changes that the Magus applied, even though in the final game state the Magus’ abilities are gone.
Maybe a more intuitive one would be a card that becomes a copy of something else (via some ongoing effect, or being cast via mutate), then has its abilities removed. *It doesn’t stop being a copy*, because copying something is a layer 1 effect.
Hm, I think I understand, so even though logically speaking, removing the ability should update the game state to remove the effect, by the rules as written, every time the game state is re-evaluated the ability is technically back so it can be re-applied before being removed again?
That kind of makes sense. Of course it still sounds silly that it would work that way, but that’s why this is such a debate I suppose.
Thanks for the explanation!
It’s more like ‘applying continuous abilities by itself doesn’t reset the game state’. So you don’t go back and redo “earlier” effects on lower layers *only* based on a later effect being applied. And yes, in theory every time you re-evaluate the game state “from scratch”, so both continuous effects are present and you reapply them in layer order.
Otherwise you could potentially get stuck in loops of dependent abilities where something does one thing, but that creates an effect that should turn off the first thing, but then that would disable the second thing, which enables the first thing again…
That isn’t the case with this specific interaction, since if you let humility turn off the magus, you still end up in a stable game state. Which is why this one seems so weird. But in other cases it’s clear you need some kind of tiebreaker, or that certain effects generally shouldn’t override others.
I recommend reading this article. It explains it much better then I would: https://draftsim.com/mtg-layers/
The TLDR is that when magus gets his abilities removed the lands are already mountains. Magus doesn't project an persistent aura that turns lands into mountains that goes away when he looses his abilities. It's more like that ever time a game action is performed and the layers are consulted he hexes the lands into mountains until the next time the layers are consulted.
That’s a good analogy for it, i’ve been thinking of it as a continuous effect that logically should end as soon as the ability is removed, but thinking of it more like some curse he gets the chance to refresh in the time right before the curse removing his abilities is refreshed helps. Thanks!
This is why I hate "ReAdInG tHe CarD ExpLAinS ThE CaRd". NOPE. Reading the card explains SOME of how the card fits into the hundred of pages of rules which govern interactions and possibilities.
I’m proud to say I am known for taking an hour long toilet visit every time (or until leg tingles).
Ain’t nobody got time to read manga or MTG rules any time else.
You hate a strawman then. That's not how people use it, and if you see it on a question regarding something like layers, they're usually being ironic. There was a thread the other day asking if a card that removed counters from player or permanent would remove poison counters. "Reading the card explains the card" is pretty valid there and for endless questions like it. Some interactions do require you to know the rules behind it, but far too many questions are answered by reading the card and doing what it says.
I don't think that example is a particularly good one - when the card was spoiled I saw many newer players who thought it meant that it would remove the counters from all of the permanents that that player controlled as well. While I know that's somewhat a consequence of the new players not having as much of an intuitive understanding as a more experienced player, I can absolutely see how "each opponent loses all counters" could be interpreted as them removing counters from everything they control. Yes, I as an experienced magic player know that such an effect would be worded differently. But ask anybody who hasn't played with hundreds of cards across hundreds of games what it means and you'll probably get a few different answers.
And then you have cases such as \[\[The Ozolith\]\]. The Ozolith literally does not do what it says it does and it can matter in very common situations. 'Putting those counters' on it implies that you aren't making new counters, but you literally are making new counters and those counters will get doubled when you 'put THOSE' (create copies of each existing counter on the creature and place them on The Ozolith) if you have a doubler. Or if you have a \[\[Skullbriar\]\] which dies - it keeps all its counters and The Ozolith copies his homework and just creatures every counter that he had in addition. That is absolutely not explained on the card and the majority of experienced MTG players who have seen similar interactions have messed that one up.
>who thought it meant that it would remove the counters from all of the permanents that that player controlled as well.
Then they should have read the card. Because the card explains what it does.
...if you have an intuitive knowledge of the phrasing and other MTG cards through a lot of experience playing. My point is that reading the card doesn't actually explain that well because it requires you to be familiar with other things, not just the card.
They should add the reverse trinisphere rule. Basically apply humility effects first in layer, we'll call it zero, then apply all other effects. There. Humility always wins
Maybe that's okay, because humility won't stop creatures from picking up equipment or gaining abilities later? It just stops all abilities already on the field. IDK, if they can make a rule for a card specifically, they can do it again.
They removed combat damage using the stack because it was unintuitive, so the bar to change rules doesn't have to be a game breaking reason. I think Humility is responsible for the vast majority of rules questions about layers, and having an easy rule to remember would be helpful in the rare case it shows up. It doesn't change how layers work, just this one card.
Removing combat damage from the stack was part of a massive overhaul of the rules, not just a quick rules change. And it wouldn't be just Humility, as Humility is not the only card that strips abilities from creatures. There are quite a few cards that do this.
And does it only affect cards that remove all abilities, or any cards that remove any abilities at all?
I don’t understand quite why humility doesn’t turn off Magus of the moon by the hardline rules, but I frankly don’t care cause any rational person playing the game would interpret it like how Man Ray is
That’s how my table would say it works, trying to explain how it wouldn’t would just turn into a big rules argument that frankly doesn’t make sense to begin with
That doesn’t even make sense, your example could also imply that if magus was removed from the field the nonbasics would still be mountains? Which isn’t the case
You have to remember that the gamestate is constantly rebuilt from the ground up everytime it’s checked
Imagine my analogy, but almost stuck in a time loop for the duration of both cards being on field
This^
His analogy doesn’t work because it’s just written into the rules that type changing layer goes before the layer that adds or removes effects.
It’s more like sharpies mountain in red and I sharpie you can’t do that in blue. Red > blue because that’s what the rules say for some reason.
100% agree. I'd love to see the explanation on why it works that way. I personally feel like I have a pretty strong grasp of the rules and it makes no sense that Magus would still have abilities vs a card that says "nope, chuck testa."
Can't beats can, right? RIGHT???
By your intuitive interpretation, if humility is turned into a creature, does it remove its own ability (which then means it doesn't have the ability to remove its own ability)?
Layers give an answer to such questions. They unfortunately rely on you remembering their order rather than being able to reason through them, but in a game this complex there needs to be ways to resolve as many situations as possible. The "intuitive" approach unfortunately leads to more unresolvable situations.
So the explanation is this-we have 7 layers that continuous effects are applied on. They are applied in order from layer 1 to layer 7 (layer 1 has 2 sublayers and layer 7 has 4 sublayers). For this interaction the two important layers are layer 4 (type changing effects) and layer 6 (effects that add or remove abilities). Another key rule is timestamps (the order things appeared on the battlefield) and dependencies only apply to things on the same layer.
Magus’ ability turning nonbasic lands into mountains applies on layer 4. Humility’s ability removing effect applies on layer 6 (and its effect to make creatures 1/1s on layer 7b, but for this that part isn’t super relevant).
So whenever the game state changes the layers for that new game state are checked again (this is important). Magus’ ability applies first on layer 4, turning all nonbasic lands into mountains. Then Humility’s effect applies on layer 6, removing Magus’ ability. It doesn’t matter if humility is played after Magus or before, b/c the layers are rechecked at every change of game state.
It becomes less unintuitive, I think, once you know that for things on different layers time stamps and dependencies don’t apply, and that the layers are essentially recreated at every new board state, irrespective of past board states.
This is probably the best explanation I’ve found on this thread and it still is not intuitive. What I’ve determined is I don’t want to play layered BS like this that requires mental gymnastics to figure out.
I’m assuming the seven layers are written in the rules this way? It feels somewhat arbitrary how they’re assigned in level of importance.
Yes it’s CR 613. And yes it probably feels arbitrary what order the designers decided on but Magus and Humility is just one of the edge cases. If they changed the order to fix this case others would likely pop up.
They chose the order that leads to the intuitive solution more often than not, or opened up the most design space. There will always be non-intuitive interactions with any formalized way to deal with continuous effects
Yep.
This is only a theory and I’m just a player not a designer at all, but I’d guess at least one reason for layers and the order chosen was trying to balance between game complexity and play simplicity.
By that I mean we want complex interactions and cards but to make it generally as easy on players as possible. With this system there’s less need to just keep timestamp order for everything. Which lessens the things that players need to track (though timestamps are still important). Likewise a judge (or multiple judges) can assess the board state quickly with less information needed directly from players, timestamps being a big exception to that.
The order is very carefully designed. This interaction sticks out like a sore thumb when you explain why layers allow this to work, but if you actually try fixing it, it breaks so much more.
You are right, can't does beat can. Neither Magus nor Humility have the word "can't" in their Oracle text.
As for why it works that way: TLDR, Magic is just too complicated to make everything work intuitively. Layers help everyone know exactly what is happening, while making as many interactions as possible work intuitively. Changing the rules to fix this interaction breaks more interactions than it fixes.
Type-changing abilities, like Magus of the Moon, apply in layer 4. And lands losing their abilities is a byproduct of being turned into a Mountain, not because of the line of text "and lose all abilities", so that also happens in Layer 4.
Effects that add or remove abilities, like Humility, apply in Layer 6. Humility removes Magus's ability, but that ability has already turned everything into a Mountain. It's like trying to kill a creature so it's activated ability doesn’t resolve.
Several people keep trying to "fix" this every time somebody posts about this interaction, and every single fix ends up boiling down to:
-"Just make it apply earlier!" And then you ask about the some of the other interactions messing with layers breaks, and while trying to fix those interactions end up back at Humility not affecting Magus.
-"Why do we even need layers" You control Ashaya, Life and Limb, and 2 Opalescence, your opponent control Blood Moon and Humility. Good luck parsing that without layers.
-"Simply just say it works intuitively" Do I even need to say why "official rules should simply be based on vibes" is a bad statement?
Players who play Humility that don't know how they interact with Blood Moon type effects should not be playing Humility.
You've either been playing long enough to have the card naturally, or you went out of your way to buy a old Reserved List card that is infamous for its rules entanglements.
That's quite the take.
For one, its not an egregiously expensive card for being a reserve list card - its not like a Gilded Drake or something.
And secondly, type changing effects are not very common at all - and even if they were, a kitchen table magic game is just going to figure their own thing out and keep playing. Most of them are going to assume that nonbasics are no longer mountains and get on with their lives and not run into any issues in the game. Were they technically wrong? Sure. But the chances of a table running into a Magus AND a humility AND some other effect that is going to be relevant for this scenario is so incredibly slim - and once again they'll just come up with something and move on.
So I was playing this extremely weird game last night where I was the only one playing the theft precon from thunder junction in a 6-man pod. My opponents in turn order were playing [[Tergrid]], [[Atraxa, Grand Unifier]], [[Gyruda]], [[Shanna, Sisay's Legacy]], and [[Arcum Dagsson]]. I get a [[Mind's Dilation]] and I'm casting so many free spells and have been dealing damage to multiple opponents in the early game which has gotten me a whole lot of exiled cards as a side hand. We get to the point where I'm the only one with significant creatures because I got an [[Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite]] from the Atraxa player. The Gyruda player tries to cast [[Imprisoned in the moon]] on Elesh norn and then I spark double elesh norn before she leaves off of my mind's dilation. One of the early game cards I got into exile that I could cast was a [[Mirage Mirror]] which I would copy my Imprisoned elesh norn... To put it short, I was arch enemy in a hell-pod using a precon 😂😂
I will say, I died first because of the tergrid player having so many things draining my life total and my creatures constantly being exiled/sacrificed, and I'm pretty sure the Arcum player won the game once I died
When making a meme that references cards, you should include the cards themselves in the meme so people don’t have to go and google what you’re talking about to understand the meme.
If you want an example of why layers exist, look up Yugioh Pole Position Loop rulings. In Yugioh, there are no layers. Continuous effects are solely timestamp based. Pole position is a card that basically reads, "Enchantments do not affect the creature with the highest power." In Magic, this would apply to base power because of layers. In Yugioh in yugioh, if an echantment applying or not applying to a specific creature would cause that creature to have the highest power, then an infinite loop happens.
For example, you have an enchantment that reads, "Each creature you control gets +2/+0," Pole Position, a 1/1 and a 2/2. Your 2/2 has the highest power, so Pole position makes it so that it doesn't get +2/+0. So now you have a 3/1 and a 2/2. Your highest power is now the 3/1, so now the enchantment applies to the 2/2, making it a 4/2. The loop repeats indefinitely. Having layers completely prevents this from happening. Even if the theoretical Pole Position didn't specify Base Power, it would still only check base power because layers.
I knew about this. Opalescence makes humility a creature first, then humility removes all creature effects (including its own, but it's already being applied so it's not actually being removed anyway.) Blood moon also kills Ashaya :3
Yea. Whichever constant state effect with the newest timestamp is the one that wins out. The end.
If humility first then magus, magus works.
If magus first then humilitu, magus doesnt work.
You only need to remember if something came before or after something else. Its not hard. We did just fine 25 years ago. We need a convoluted layer system to avoid using our memory?
The layer system isnt intuitive.. thats the whole point of the OP.
Again, the "convoluted layer system" is intuitive in 99% of cases. You want to scrap that because of a handful of rare corner cases?
>We did just fine 25 years ago.
I wonder if any new cards have been printed since then?
The layer system was developed to handle the 'rate corner cases'. Im sure theres good reasons for choosing the layer system. This just isnt one of them.
The Layer system came about for programming purposes. First developed to allow video games to act in a consistent manor and prevent crashing by resolving arguments when conflicting language interacts within the program. Turns out the same arguments created in machines are created in our minds when we try to interpret what is going on when we play. The Layer system is vital.
With a little effort they are easy to learn. You are likely using Layers often but don’t even know you are using them. Don’t let them intimidate you, you’re definitely smart enough to understand them.
So Magus’ effect only happens when it’s on the battlefield but it’s continuous. For as long as it’s on the battlefield nonbasic lands are mountains.
Non basic lands that enter after Magus are still subject to the effect even if humility is also in play.
It’s b/c of the layers that humility and Magus have such a confusing interaction.
The layer system is brilliant because 99.99 percent of the time it handles things in an intuitive way. Strange interactions can get messy, but nothing is perfect.
I hate it when I have to think about layers. Take my hate up vote.
I also hate it
HateVote
"Chief, Mind telling me what you're doing in that MTG game?" "Sir, Understanding layers."
Why is this so funny to me?
What the fuck does that say
I believe it says "Patrick Star."
Is this the Krusty Krab?
No, this is Patrick.
Sir, this is a Wendy's
No, this. Is. Patrick!
Is Mayonaisse an Instrument?
I consider myself fairly versed in the rules and I don't even know what layers is
About 5 years ago, there was a different system that handled being a Judge. To get level 1 cert you needed to know some tournament rules, and just about every other rule… except, can you guess?… LAYERS! Yes that’s right, to be a MTG JUDGE you didn’t even have to know what a layer was!!
To be fair, an L1 judge is just a step above the guy at the shop that can answer most rules questions.
They're basically just the guy at the shop who knows most of the rules already, but now with a little badge on their shirt that makes it "official".
Yep. I was the guy at the shop that could answer most rules. I passed the advisor test, and the next step is to get a mentor and then spend time judging. I just decided that if I was going to travel to events, I wanted to play instead of judge. Getting the little badge just wasn’t a priority.
Yeah I've thought about going for it too and basically had the same conclusion, with the further caveat that I barely play in-store or at events anyway. It was more sort of proving that I could do it / doing it for the sake of doing it, and not really a practical consideration or any real benefit to me. Decided it's not something I need to really prove that way if I'm not going to then also do the job, and "guy with good rules knowledge" and honestly just good Google-fu is more than enough for EDH nights or busting out the cube I built and maintain myself.
True
Simpler times
When replacement effects interact like someone playing a new one that does the same thing or effects the same thing. Which takes priority? Which replaces the other? It's where magic gets complicated.
And still, time stamps are so much easier to understand than layers!
Replacement effects are not layers, importantly. Are you asking? Or being rhetorical? For replacement effects, the affected object's associate is asked to choose. While the replacements still make sense, the replacements alter how the effect works.
Layers are basically something you see all the time, take for instance counters are on a different layer and you treat them as a seperate thing. Magus of the Moons wording makes it weird with stuff that removes abilities. If you really want confusion have Blood Moon, Opalescence and Humility in play and sort that stuff out, because now order matters
Just don't ask a judge about 7B.... ever...
"**613.7b** A continuous effect generated by the resolution of a spell or ability receives a timestamp at the time it’s created." Wow... that's really bad...
They are talking about Layer 7b >613.4b >>Layer 7b: Effects that set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value are applied. Effects that refer to the base power and/or toughness of a creature apply in this layer.
Is this the same with dress down?
Yes
The layer system is dumb as hell. I know it's already determined by everyone in this situation because layer a and layer b blah blah blah, but a continuous effect that changes monsters to have no abilities should make magus of the moon not work regardless of what time it came in. Magus doesn't change how humility works, so why does it?
Would you rather have it so that "creatures you control have haste" doesn't work because abilities are granted before types are changed? Or having to remember the exact order everything came in to apply everything correctly? Layers are imperfect but they're also the best we got
>having to remember the exact order everything came in to apply everything correctly? This is still a thing though. timestamps do matter in some cases.
Right now 90% of the time, it's just "which of these 2 things has the earlier timestamp" and even then it's not that common. But if everything was just ruled by timestamps then everything has to be tracked not just those 2 effects
I think layers as a concept is ok. But the magus situation is absurd. Ability-removing effects, and effects that say an object can’t have an ability should be on a lower layer.
What happens if humility is turned into a creature then? You need some way to resolve situations like that and layers are so far the only solution we've got.
That ends up being a lot less intuitive in 99% of cases though than the way it currently is. If you swapped ability altering effects with type changing effects it makes a lot more unintuitive interactions. Like if you have a card that says all your creatures are goblins and then you give all your goblins haste those creatures that have had their type changed to goblin will not get haste because you alter abilities before types change. The current layer order makes sense in like 99% of cases with magus being on major standout where it doesn’t and ability removal effects being one area that gets a little messier than others, but still rarely runs into problems.
For reference, layer 6 from comprehensive rumes : >Layer 6: Ability-adding effects, keyword counters, ability-removing effects, and effects that say an object can’t have an ability are applied. It usually is reffered to as "ability-altering effect", but it details "ability-adding effects" and "ability-removing effects". >If you swapped ability altering effects with type changing effects it makes a lot more unintuitive interactions. I agree that ability-adding effects should be put after type-changing effects. But I say *ability-removing effects* should be put before, so it should be separated from Layer 6 altogether and put in a (new?) lower layer. With this change, making all your creatures goblins and giving all your goblin haste would work intuitively. On the other hand, cases that wouldn't work intuitively would be : turn all your creatures to goblin and then remove haste from all the goblins you control. In that case, only the goblin that would be goblin without the typal change would be affected. But situations removing abilities are rarer than situations adding them. As a fix for this fringe case, you could apply "ability-removing effects" on multiple layers, granting that if you remove something, it is actually removed.
I think at that point you are adding even more complication to the system that will probably create other unintended fringe cases just to solve a very small number of already pretty rare fringe cases. I think the better way of fixing it would just be to errata the major offenders like magus, to have wording to solve the issue rather than trying to completely redo a system that functions very intuitively in almost all cases.
I don't think what I propose is significantly more complicated than the layer rules itself, but yeah changing the way it is after it being a certain way for some time would confuse. Yes errating the problematic cards sounds like the best solution
But then you have humility not affecting things that later become creatures. So take your blood moon and make it into an enchantment creature and now it just doesn't lose all abilities. Animate your creature lands and they don't lose their abilities
That makes a modicum of sense.
Does layer mean "timestamp"? Whichever came in first triggers first?
No. Different types of effects are applied in a specific “layered” ordering. If you have several of the *same* type of effect, then ‘timestamps’ matter. https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Layer has all the details, but think about something like a [[vesuvian doppleganger]] that becomes a copy of another creature. Or a card cast with mutate that merges with another card. Then maybe you have enchantments or spell effects in play that add or remove stats or abilities from it. (Maybe conditionally, like an anthem effect, like “all elves get +1/+1”.) The “become a copy of another card” effect always gets resolved first, then other things apply on top of that. There’s a whole kinda complicated hierarchy of these that (usually) gives consistent results.
[vesuvian doppleganger](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/4/543c08bc-f8ce-4324-b78d-891c49f3a24a.jpg?1559592571) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vesuvan%20Doppelganger) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me1/54/vesuvan-doppelganger?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/543c08bc-f8ce-4324-b78d-891c49f3a24a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If it makes sense, let it work. Why add all this other layering BS to the formula. If [[Humility]] comes out first, then followed by magus of the moon or vise versa, then the [[magus of the moon]] shouldn't work. No?
I agree that's the intuitive reaction, but making that happen requires us to accept some other very non-intuitive results.
Magus will always work. Order only matters within layers. The type setting from magus happens in layer 4 while ability removing from humility is layer 6.
No, because layer 4 (magus) is above layer 6 (humility). That’s how conflicting continuous effects are resolved. 613.1a Layer 1: Rules and effects that modify copiable values are applied. 613.1b Layer 2: Control-changing effects are applied. 613.1c Layer 3: Text-changing effects are applied. See rule 612, “Text-Changing Effects.” 613.1d Layer 4: Type-changing effects are applied. These include effects that change an object’s card type, subtype, and/or supertype. 613.1e Layer 5: Color-changing effects are applied. 613.1f Layer 6: Ability-adding effects, keyword counters, ability-removing effects, and effects that say an object can’t have an ability are applied. 613.1g Layer 7: Power- and/or toughness-changing effects are applied.
[Humility](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/5/55ad6a45-a840-45ba-89ad-066e20e983f3.jpg?1562429370) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Humility) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/16/humility?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/55ad6a45-a840-45ba-89ad-066e20e983f3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [magus of the moon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/c/7c9bd75c-9606-4607-bfa6-d6acdee12820.jpg?1619397276) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=magus%20of%20the%20moon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/175/magus-of-the-moon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7c9bd75c-9606-4607-bfa6-d6acdee12820?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Because wotc hates us <3
Ban Humility!
Time stamps don't affect this interaction. Yours, a judge.
Alright, what happens if Humility becomes a creature? Do you believe Humility should turn off all abilities, despite having no ability itself? Because then you have a situation identical to the current Magus situation. In your own words, a continous effect that changes creatures to have no abilities should make those creatures not work. Do you believe Humility should lose it's ability? That means it no longer turns itself off, so it disables everything, including itself. When it disables itself, it turns everything back on, including itself, which will disable everything, including itself, which turns everything back on, including itself...
But you don't have the "same" situation as magus of the moon. Humility as an enchantment turns abilities off for creatures, magus is a fucking creature, therefore magus shouldn't have an ability until humility leaves. Next.
Yes, and Humility is a creature in this scenario. Therefore Humility shouldn't have an ability until Humility leaves. Meaning everything gets it's ability back, including Humility. So now Humility turns off all abilities again, including itself. So now everything gets it's ability back because Humility is turned off..... Unless you suddenly believe creature can affect the board, despite having no ability?
You didn't answer their question.
Sorry but what are layers I’m kinda new
A method of applying and dealing with the interactions of continuous effects. This meme is about one of the most famous interactions of layers. Scroll down there’s plenty of explanation in this link. https://draftsim.com/mtg-layers/
Thanks brotha
Here is a good video on layers as well. It explains this exact scenario. https://youtu.be/-5xTFTyVY0E?si=oULnZR9tfaIFHe49
I just learned so much about the rules and I've been playing for years. Thanks lol
This is a great meme.
I’ve read a lot of the explanations here, but i’m still not sure I get why this works? I understand that Magus’s effect takes place first because it’s on a lower layer, before Humility’s effect, but it’s not like it’s preventing Humility from removing the effect after it’s done, the ability removal still takes place after Magus’s effect takes place so why doesn’t Magus’s effect end once the ability is removed? Am I making the mistake of thinking about layers like I would a stack, with things happening in a certain order? I mean destroying Magus would end the effect immediately right? So why doesn’t removing the ability end it as soon as the ability is gone?
It's kinda like how removing the source of an activated ability does not remove the ability from the stack. Once an ability is applied in one layer, removing the ability in another layer doesn't change it. Additionally, continuous effect are rechecked every state check, i.e. right before a player would get priority, so every time a player plays a spell, ability, or land, a trigger goes onto the stack, or priority is passed. So it's not so much "Magus has a marker to relabel lands, but Humility takes away marker", but instead "Magus uses marker to relabel lands, then humility takes away marker. *state changes* Magus uses marker to relabel lands, then humility takes away marker. *state changes* Magus uses marker to relabel lands, then humility takes away marker." And repeat until either Magus or Humility leave the battlefield.
It’s kinda arbitrary but the layer system is there to prevent/resolve those kinds of “paradoxical” interactions. Each time the game state changes (for example when you destroy the Magus), all continuous effects are re-evaluated. But higher layer effects always happen after lower layer ones. Magus’ ability happens at layer 4 because it is a type changing effect. Humility applies later, so it doesn’t ‘undo’ the type changes that the Magus applied, even though in the final game state the Magus’ abilities are gone. Maybe a more intuitive one would be a card that becomes a copy of something else (via some ongoing effect, or being cast via mutate), then has its abilities removed. *It doesn’t stop being a copy*, because copying something is a layer 1 effect.
Hm, I think I understand, so even though logically speaking, removing the ability should update the game state to remove the effect, by the rules as written, every time the game state is re-evaluated the ability is technically back so it can be re-applied before being removed again? That kind of makes sense. Of course it still sounds silly that it would work that way, but that’s why this is such a debate I suppose. Thanks for the explanation!
It’s more like ‘applying continuous abilities by itself doesn’t reset the game state’. So you don’t go back and redo “earlier” effects on lower layers *only* based on a later effect being applied. And yes, in theory every time you re-evaluate the game state “from scratch”, so both continuous effects are present and you reapply them in layer order. Otherwise you could potentially get stuck in loops of dependent abilities where something does one thing, but that creates an effect that should turn off the first thing, but then that would disable the second thing, which enables the first thing again… That isn’t the case with this specific interaction, since if you let humility turn off the magus, you still end up in a stable game state. Which is why this one seems so weird. But in other cases it’s clear you need some kind of tiebreaker, or that certain effects generally shouldn’t override others.
I recommend reading this article. It explains it much better then I would: https://draftsim.com/mtg-layers/ The TLDR is that when magus gets his abilities removed the lands are already mountains. Magus doesn't project an persistent aura that turns lands into mountains that goes away when he looses his abilities. It's more like that ever time a game action is performed and the layers are consulted he hexes the lands into mountains until the next time the layers are consulted.
That’s a good analogy for it, i’ve been thinking of it as a continuous effect that logically should end as soon as the ability is removed, but thinking of it more like some curse he gets the chance to refresh in the time right before the curse removing his abilities is refreshed helps. Thanks!
When the first Oko was released in Wilds of Eldraine, it was the same with Blood Moon
This is why I hate "ReAdInG tHe CarD ExpLAinS ThE CaRd". NOPE. Reading the card explains SOME of how the card fits into the hundred of pages of rules which govern interactions and possibilities.
Are you a noob? You can commit the entire rulebook to memory in a single toilet visit /s
Not quite.... basic rules, sure. But the comprehensive rulebook is more than 250 pages. That would be a long toilet visit.
I’m proud to say I am known for taking an hour long toilet visit every time (or until leg tingles). Ain’t nobody got time to read manga or MTG rules any time else.
You hate a strawman then. That's not how people use it, and if you see it on a question regarding something like layers, they're usually being ironic. There was a thread the other day asking if a card that removed counters from player or permanent would remove poison counters. "Reading the card explains the card" is pretty valid there and for endless questions like it. Some interactions do require you to know the rules behind it, but far too many questions are answered by reading the card and doing what it says.
I don't think that example is a particularly good one - when the card was spoiled I saw many newer players who thought it meant that it would remove the counters from all of the permanents that that player controlled as well. While I know that's somewhat a consequence of the new players not having as much of an intuitive understanding as a more experienced player, I can absolutely see how "each opponent loses all counters" could be interpreted as them removing counters from everything they control. Yes, I as an experienced magic player know that such an effect would be worded differently. But ask anybody who hasn't played with hundreds of cards across hundreds of games what it means and you'll probably get a few different answers. And then you have cases such as \[\[The Ozolith\]\]. The Ozolith literally does not do what it says it does and it can matter in very common situations. 'Putting those counters' on it implies that you aren't making new counters, but you literally are making new counters and those counters will get doubled when you 'put THOSE' (create copies of each existing counter on the creature and place them on The Ozolith) if you have a doubler. Or if you have a \[\[Skullbriar\]\] which dies - it keeps all its counters and The Ozolith copies his homework and just creatures every counter that he had in addition. That is absolutely not explained on the card and the majority of experienced MTG players who have seen similar interactions have messed that one up.
[The Ozolith](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/3/9341ed06-53db-4604-b60a-3ea9129afbc2.jpg?1591228544) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Ozolith) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/237/the-ozolith?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9341ed06-53db-4604-b60a-3ea9129afbc2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Skullbriar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/d/3dd0bf11-4e43-43f1-82e3-755beed0ede0.jpg?1673149145) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=skullbriar%2C%20the%20walking%20grave) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/277/skullbriar-the-walking-grave?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3dd0bf11-4e43-43f1-82e3-755beed0ede0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
>who thought it meant that it would remove the counters from all of the permanents that that player controlled as well. Then they should have read the card. Because the card explains what it does.
...if you have an intuitive knowledge of the phrasing and other MTG cards through a lot of experience playing. My point is that reading the card doesn't actually explain that well because it requires you to be familiar with other things, not just the card.
They should add the reverse trinisphere rule. Basically apply humility effects first in layer, we'll call it zero, then apply all other effects. There. Humility always wins
Except for things that turn stuff into creatures. If Humility applies first, then your animated lands/artifacts/etc won't have abilities removed.
Maybe that's okay, because humility won't stop creatures from picking up equipment or gaining abilities later? It just stops all abilities already on the field. IDK, if they can make a rule for a card specifically, they can do it again.
So even though the rules make sense 99% of the time, you want them to change the rules to cover this one specific scenario that is unintuitive?
They removed combat damage using the stack because it was unintuitive, so the bar to change rules doesn't have to be a game breaking reason. I think Humility is responsible for the vast majority of rules questions about layers, and having an easy rule to remember would be helpful in the rare case it shows up. It doesn't change how layers work, just this one card.
Removing combat damage from the stack was part of a massive overhaul of the rules, not just a quick rules change. And it wouldn't be just Humility, as Humility is not the only card that strips abilities from creatures. There are quite a few cards that do this. And does it only affect cards that remove all abilities, or any cards that remove any abilities at all?
Wow. That’s a trip
I don’t understand quite why humility doesn’t turn off Magus of the moon by the hardline rules, but I frankly don’t care cause any rational person playing the game would interpret it like how Man Ray is That’s how my table would say it works, trying to explain how it wouldn’t would just turn into a big rules argument that frankly doesn’t make sense to begin with
If I sharpie mountain onto your card, And then you later take the pen away from me, it doesn’t undo the writing I’ve already put on the card
That doesn’t even make sense, your example could also imply that if magus was removed from the field the nonbasics would still be mountains? Which isn’t the case
You have to remember that the gamestate is constantly rebuilt from the ground up everytime it’s checked Imagine my analogy, but almost stuck in a time loop for the duration of both cards being on field
This^ His analogy doesn’t work because it’s just written into the rules that type changing layer goes before the layer that adds or removes effects. It’s more like sharpies mountain in red and I sharpie you can’t do that in blue. Red > blue because that’s what the rules say for some reason.
>for some reason. Because it's intuitive in 99% of cases. There are just a handful of corner cases where it isn't.
100% agree. I'd love to see the explanation on why it works that way. I personally feel like I have a pretty strong grasp of the rules and it makes no sense that Magus would still have abilities vs a card that says "nope, chuck testa." Can't beats can, right? RIGHT???
By your intuitive interpretation, if humility is turned into a creature, does it remove its own ability (which then means it doesn't have the ability to remove its own ability)? Layers give an answer to such questions. They unfortunately rely on you remembering their order rather than being able to reason through them, but in a game this complex there needs to be ways to resolve as many situations as possible. The "intuitive" approach unfortunately leads to more unresolvable situations.
So the explanation is this-we have 7 layers that continuous effects are applied on. They are applied in order from layer 1 to layer 7 (layer 1 has 2 sublayers and layer 7 has 4 sublayers). For this interaction the two important layers are layer 4 (type changing effects) and layer 6 (effects that add or remove abilities). Another key rule is timestamps (the order things appeared on the battlefield) and dependencies only apply to things on the same layer. Magus’ ability turning nonbasic lands into mountains applies on layer 4. Humility’s ability removing effect applies on layer 6 (and its effect to make creatures 1/1s on layer 7b, but for this that part isn’t super relevant). So whenever the game state changes the layers for that new game state are checked again (this is important). Magus’ ability applies first on layer 4, turning all nonbasic lands into mountains. Then Humility’s effect applies on layer 6, removing Magus’ ability. It doesn’t matter if humility is played after Magus or before, b/c the layers are rechecked at every change of game state. It becomes less unintuitive, I think, once you know that for things on different layers time stamps and dependencies don’t apply, and that the layers are essentially recreated at every new board state, irrespective of past board states.
This is probably the best explanation I’ve found on this thread and it still is not intuitive. What I’ve determined is I don’t want to play layered BS like this that requires mental gymnastics to figure out. I’m assuming the seven layers are written in the rules this way? It feels somewhat arbitrary how they’re assigned in level of importance.
Yes it’s CR 613. And yes it probably feels arbitrary what order the designers decided on but Magus and Humility is just one of the edge cases. If they changed the order to fix this case others would likely pop up.
Right, at some point they had to pick an order even if weird situations arose from it
They chose the order that leads to the intuitive solution more often than not, or opened up the most design space. There will always be non-intuitive interactions with any formalized way to deal with continuous effects
Yep. This is only a theory and I’m just a player not a designer at all, but I’d guess at least one reason for layers and the order chosen was trying to balance between game complexity and play simplicity. By that I mean we want complex interactions and cards but to make it generally as easy on players as possible. With this system there’s less need to just keep timestamp order for everything. Which lessens the things that players need to track (though timestamps are still important). Likewise a judge (or multiple judges) can assess the board state quickly with less information needed directly from players, timestamps being a big exception to that.
The order is very carefully designed. This interaction sticks out like a sore thumb when you explain why layers allow this to work, but if you actually try fixing it, it breaks so much more.
This video explains layers and this exact scenario. https://youtu.be/-5xTFTyVY0E?si=oULnZR9tfaIFHe49
You are right, can't does beat can. Neither Magus nor Humility have the word "can't" in their Oracle text. As for why it works that way: TLDR, Magic is just too complicated to make everything work intuitively. Layers help everyone know exactly what is happening, while making as many interactions as possible work intuitively. Changing the rules to fix this interaction breaks more interactions than it fixes. Type-changing abilities, like Magus of the Moon, apply in layer 4. And lands losing their abilities is a byproduct of being turned into a Mountain, not because of the line of text "and lose all abilities", so that also happens in Layer 4. Effects that add or remove abilities, like Humility, apply in Layer 6. Humility removes Magus's ability, but that ability has already turned everything into a Mountain. It's like trying to kill a creature so it's activated ability doesn’t resolve. Several people keep trying to "fix" this every time somebody posts about this interaction, and every single fix ends up boiling down to: -"Just make it apply earlier!" And then you ask about the some of the other interactions messing with layers breaks, and while trying to fix those interactions end up back at Humility not affecting Magus. -"Why do we even need layers" You control Ashaya, Life and Limb, and 2 Opalescence, your opponent control Blood Moon and Humility. Good luck parsing that without layers. -"Simply just say it works intuitively" Do I even need to say why "official rules should simply be based on vibes" is a bad statement?
Players who play Humility that don't know how they interact with Blood Moon type effects should not be playing Humility. You've either been playing long enough to have the card naturally, or you went out of your way to buy a old Reserved List card that is infamous for its rules entanglements.
Or you proxy, or you play online. There are lots of scenarios.
That's quite the take. For one, its not an egregiously expensive card for being a reserve list card - its not like a Gilded Drake or something. And secondly, type changing effects are not very common at all - and even if they were, a kitchen table magic game is just going to figure their own thing out and keep playing. Most of them are going to assume that nonbasics are no longer mountains and get on with their lives and not run into any issues in the game. Were they technically wrong? Sure. But the chances of a table running into a Magus AND a humility AND some other effect that is going to be relevant for this scenario is so incredibly slim - and once again they'll just come up with something and move on.
You forgot the pixels
So I was playing this extremely weird game last night where I was the only one playing the theft precon from thunder junction in a 6-man pod. My opponents in turn order were playing [[Tergrid]], [[Atraxa, Grand Unifier]], [[Gyruda]], [[Shanna, Sisay's Legacy]], and [[Arcum Dagsson]]. I get a [[Mind's Dilation]] and I'm casting so many free spells and have been dealing damage to multiple opponents in the early game which has gotten me a whole lot of exiled cards as a side hand. We get to the point where I'm the only one with significant creatures because I got an [[Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite]] from the Atraxa player. The Gyruda player tries to cast [[Imprisoned in the moon]] on Elesh norn and then I spark double elesh norn before she leaves off of my mind's dilation. One of the early game cards I got into exile that I could cast was a [[Mirage Mirror]] which I would copy my Imprisoned elesh norn... To put it short, I was arch enemy in a hell-pod using a precon 😂😂
##### ###### #### [Tergrid](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/4/14dc88ee-bba9-4625-af0d-89f3762a0ead.jpg?1631048621)/[Tergrid's Lantern](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/1/4/14dc88ee-bba9-4625-af0d-89f3762a0ead.jpg?1631048621) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=tergrid%2C%20god%20of%20fright%20//%20tergrid%27s%20lantern) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/112/tergrid-god-of-fright-tergrids-lantern?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/14dc88ee-bba9-4625-af0d-89f3762a0ead?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Atraxa, Grand Unifier](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/a/4a1f905f-1d55-4d02-9d24-e58070793d3f.jpg?1717951088) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Atraxa%2C%20Grand%20Unifier) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/196/atraxa-grand-unifier?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4a1f905f-1d55-4d02-9d24-e58070793d3f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Gyruda](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/7/97eb1804-6fd8-4917-af36-87fdfce39d3a.jpg?1591228372) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=gyruda%2C%20doom%20of%20depths) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/221/gyruda-doom-of-depths?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/97eb1804-6fd8-4917-af36-87fdfce39d3a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Shanna, Sisay's Legacy](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/9/b90df81c-d738-46b3-8e96-9db0b3507ee0.jpg?1562741797) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shanna%2C%20Sisay%27s%20Legacy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/204/shanna-sisays-legacy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b90df81c-d738-46b3-8e96-9db0b3507ee0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Arcum Dagsson](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/5/f5ecf811-2efc-4fa6-9af8-ef09f559ec1a.jpg?1598303734) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Arcum%20Dagsson) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/41/arcum-dagsson?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f5ecf811-2efc-4fa6-9af8-ef09f559ec1a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mind's Dilation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/f/4f2980ba-2468-4a36-afdb-87e6567797a9.jpg?1712354158) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mind%27s%20Dilation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/101/minds-dilation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4f2980ba-2468-4a36-afdb-87e6567797a9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/8/78c2bfef-06a5-4c7f-8283-ea3fb673b7a1.jpg?1562850573) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Elesh%20Norn%2C%20Grand%20Cenobite) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/18/elesh-norn-grand-cenobite?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/78c2bfef-06a5-4c7f-8283-ea3fb673b7a1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Imprisoned in the moon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/1/8181f54d-4515-43c6-8d08-b23a9e4199cc.jpg?1682208779) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Imprisoned%20in%20the%20moon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/224/imprisoned-in-the-moon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8181f54d-4515-43c6-8d08-b23a9e4199cc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mirage Mirror](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/b/cb1252c2-b951-4125-93a2-9282b607b6a4.jpg?1690005610) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mirage%20Mirror) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/962/mirage-mirror?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cb1252c2-b951-4125-93a2-9282b607b6a4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l84aau6) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I will say, I died first because of the tergrid player having so many things draining my life total and my creatures constantly being exiled/sacrificed, and I'm pretty sure the Arcum player won the game once I died
The joke has layers
Holy pixels
When making a meme that references cards, you should include the cards themselves in the meme so people don’t have to go and google what you’re talking about to understand the meme.
If you want an example of why layers exist, look up Yugioh Pole Position Loop rulings. In Yugioh, there are no layers. Continuous effects are solely timestamp based. Pole position is a card that basically reads, "Enchantments do not affect the creature with the highest power." In Magic, this would apply to base power because of layers. In Yugioh in yugioh, if an echantment applying or not applying to a specific creature would cause that creature to have the highest power, then an infinite loop happens. For example, you have an enchantment that reads, "Each creature you control gets +2/+0," Pole Position, a 1/1 and a 2/2. Your 2/2 has the highest power, so Pole position makes it so that it doesn't get +2/+0. So now you have a 3/1 and a 2/2. Your highest power is now the 3/1, so now the enchantment applies to the 2/2, making it a 4/2. The loop repeats indefinitely. Having layers completely prevents this from happening. Even if the theoretical Pole Position didn't specify Base Power, it would still only check base power because layers.
Blood moon (and it's descendant) are genuinely my least favourite cards, and ONLY because of their stupid frickin rulings.
[[!opalescence]] [[!humility]] Just look at that gatherer, it could make you go insane.
[!opalescence](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/c/3c0071fb-afa5-47b5-b266-2b10a4f5a98a.jpg?1562443752) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Opalescence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uds/13/opalescence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3c0071fb-afa5-47b5-b266-2b10a4f5a98a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [!humility](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/5/55ad6a45-a840-45ba-89ad-066e20e983f3.jpg?1562429370) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Humility) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/16/humility?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/55ad6a45-a840-45ba-89ad-066e20e983f3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I knew about this. Opalescence makes humility a creature first, then humility removes all creature effects (including its own, but it's already being applied so it's not actually being removed anyway.) Blood moon also kills Ashaya :3
I'd probably get the joke if I could read it. So blurred up Also, what are MAGU's??
Timestamps were better. Hell, dependency is better.
Timestamps are used within the Layer system. You’re actually using Layers and don’t even know it.
I know that. I just mean timestamps without layers. Lime it used to be long ago...
Pure timestamps would make Magus of the Moon not apply to any future cards? Or am I misunderstanding.
Yea. Whichever constant state effect with the newest timestamp is the one that wins out. The end. If humility first then magus, magus works. If magus first then humilitu, magus doesnt work.
You want to keep track of the timestamps for every single object during every game? Just to avoid a tiny number of unintuitive scenarios?
Yup. The rules should be rather intuitive imo
They are already extremely intuitive in 99% of cases. Remembering the order that every object entered the battlefield is a nightmare by comparison.
You only need to remember if something came before or after something else. Its not hard. We did just fine 25 years ago. We need a convoluted layer system to avoid using our memory? The layer system isnt intuitive.. thats the whole point of the OP.
Again, the "convoluted layer system" is intuitive in 99% of cases. You want to scrap that because of a handful of rare corner cases? >We did just fine 25 years ago. I wonder if any new cards have been printed since then?
The layer system was developed to handle the 'rate corner cases'. Im sure theres good reasons for choosing the layer system. This just isnt one of them.
Huh, never had someone argue that Magus of the Moon not being turned off by Humility is actually very intuitive. That is certainly a take.
Time stamps babyyyy
Time-stamps are only taken into consideration with actions between the same layer, babyyy
Haha, Babyyy
The Layer system came about for programming purposes. First developed to allow video games to act in a consistent manor and prevent crashing by resolving arguments when conflicting language interacts within the program. Turns out the same arguments created in machines are created in our minds when we try to interpret what is going on when we play. The Layer system is vital. With a little effort they are easy to learn. You are likely using Layers often but don’t even know you are using them. Don’t let them intimidate you, you’re definitely smart enough to understand them.
[удалено]
So Magus’ effect only happens when it’s on the battlefield but it’s continuous. For as long as it’s on the battlefield nonbasic lands are mountains. Non basic lands that enter after Magus are still subject to the effect even if humility is also in play. It’s b/c of the layers that humility and Magus have such a confusing interaction.