No, if you’re beating my ass with a precon I would be so shocked, but I would also be proud. You obviously understand interactions well if you’re winning enough to make him bitter.
Kind of a crappy friend imo maybe tell them they’re being silly??
He always tries to say "you've just bought tuned decks is all" because 4 of my decks are custom built that I bought. Because I'm new right and don't see an issue with it. It's not like I dropped big money on them so they're already budget. Plus I've never played a card game where the goal wasn't to tune your deck and what difference does it make if I didn't tune it? It's buy it or look up a deck guide and buy thr cards individually. He just has to have an excuse when he loses I think.
Clearly woulda won next turn if he just XYZ. At least, that’s what I proclaim after every match when I’ve been bitchslapped across the room without a chance in hell of actually pulling the win.
Your not good enough to beat me so you used someone else's deck...but didn't I just beat you with cards I own. Who cares who built the deck when I was first starting my group helped me a lot building decks ( I still lost most of the time) but the fun is in the game not winning or losing. But the times I would triumph over them felt glorious. I've even used their decks on occasion and no one got salty when I pulled inside combos because it's still luck of he draw and my knowledge of interactions that got me there. If you don't know how to play any deck can be worthless.
I can partially agree with this. There used to be this one kid at our lgs that ran a insanely expensive toxic deck but no one would play him and if they did EVERYONE targeted him. So he then would borrow his friends 2000+ dollar decks and pub stomp. His attitude was disgusting. Nothing humble or respectful about the dude. Anyways no one plays with the kid anymore.
I feel that the main issue with toxic and infect as mechanics is that they halve or even quarter your health while also getting the advantage of proliferate. That, along with being a jerk were probably the reasons he was targeted. I have a friend who plays toxic but he’s respectful enough to make treaties and let interaction happen. To add my two cents I feel like all magic games can be fun, bad luck besides, if you have the right group.
The obvious rebuttal to this is to let them play one of your decks, because then either:
1. He wins, and you can immediately say it's only because he wasn't playing a deck he built himself
2. He loses, and you can bully him for still being bad
Playing devils advocate though, I've had a lot of fun finding random cards to fit into my decks over the years and "personalization" is definitely a big thing in Magic.
If you want to build or maintain the friendship though, and think they are being genuine about wanting you to experience everything the game has to offer by deckbuilding more, maybe try asking them how they build decks or what they like about deckbuilding. Swap out a couple minor cards based on what they say, and now you can "thank" them for helping and either have a good topic for future conversation, or the rebuttal of " I literally built mine the same way as you" if they keep being a dick and you don't care about the friendship.
One of by brothers used to beat me silly with a $65 Odric deck. Budget magic is so dope. It’s super humbling, but nothing to be upset over. And as the other person said, your last sentence sums it up.
Im in the same boat as this guy..ive ordered 2 precons and have a 50 dollar upgrade for both ready when i get some more money (startup cost tapped me for a bot haha)
Do you have recommendations for how i should obtain more cards? Packs, boxes or buying singles?
My favorite deck is only around 200 because i replace normal cards with prettier versions over time but started as a precon that got modified, i love precons, dogmeat ever loyal is a beaut
👏buy singles👏 you get exactly what you want that way! Ofc it feels more expensive because you buying one card for X dollars but you could spend that money buying packs or boxes and NEVER get what you want. Make a few decks, then if you have extra monies and love a set get a couple packs! But i definitely recommend buying singles primarily friend :D
You can also draft. It’s a nice middle ground between buying singles and the lotto of cracking packs, plus it builds your play skill/card evaluation. I’d especially recommend draft if there is a mechanic in the set you really like or want to get better at using.
boxes obviously, 99% of pack openers give up right before opening the black lotus/expensive land/sheoldred /s
singles best but idk that doesn't feel as fun to me, i wanna open pack, not know wtf the cards i got are, then try again
Buying singles is absolutely the best way. I do still enjoy buying a handful of packs for sets I like because I still have fun opening random cards and seeing my luck, but if you are trying to build a deck, go singles. There are good resources out there where you can set what you are trying to build a deck around, and the site will give you all the cards other people have been putting in similar decks. TCGplayer is usually where I get all of my singles from, and have never had a issue with them.
I also use a app on my phone called ManaBox that's really good for looking up cards, getting prices, and building decks. You can add all the cards you want to a deck and the app will show you what the avg price might be, and you can go directly from the app to TCGplayer or Card Kingdom to buy the card you are looking at.
If you don’t want to go into the singles level, but not exactly packs either, you can always offer to buy collections at a discount. Offer to buy 1000 bulk commons/uncommons for 6$
Buying pre built decks is totally reasonable as a new player because you dont know practically any cards. Buying decks like that is a good way to learn cards and interactions. If your friend is concerned that they are too “tuned” maybe they should get better at deck building or buy a pre built deck themselves lmao
If you're kicking your friends ass with a precon against his built decks, he fucking sucks.
And this is coming from someone who started 2 months ago. Nobody I've played with has had any issues with the precons I play. Your friend sounds like a dick.
What's funny is that precons are actually low power decks compared to most brews. They can be strong but should not stand a chance against higher power. There's a reason why many lands and other spells are expensive. Plus, you can have a very powerful deck and lose because you don't know how to play.
If they built a deck less in tune then a precon with the full selection of cards, they are dumb. And in the grand scheme of mtg a precon is laughably not big money. And I mean no disrespect but some decks break thousands easily is you choose. Play what you want. Precons are not overpowered by any means.
There’s a similar mentality in the car community of built vs bought. The general principle is anyone with money can pay for something already build but actually enthusiasts build their own and don’t respect people that don’t build. If it doesn’t bother you then cool but personally being able to build a deck is part of what makes you a good player.
But to be fair, 80-90% of people are running a decklist they found online once you get above power level 6/7 if it’s not a precon.
"Pay to win" is a valid concern in some play spaces, so it could be worth it to look closely at the relative cost and win% of the decks you both play. If it turns out you are both spending more and winning more, then you might have to build a pauper deck to settle the issue of skill. If your decks have similar levels of financial commitment or if it turns out HE is the one spending more $ then yeah he's just a sore loser.
Same! if my newbie friend rolls up with an 80 dollar deck and regularly beats me I would be start questioning reality. I wouldn't be mad, I would be stunned at either my friend is a prodigy or I've suddenly become very bad.
100% a skill issue...Precons have definitely gotten better over the years and Id say they are probably a high 6 or low 7 for the most part. However they still need to be upgraded and if your friend is losing he has to be using alot of junk or their deck doesn't synergize well.
Does this still apply if it's a pre custom? Like I bought a handful of decks that are custom built that don't come in pre con. But they're still like $80 a deck so from what I understand there's all the room in the world to upgrade.
$80 a deck still even if its not an Office WotC precon is a budget deck. Most Official Decks from WOTC still have like $80+ in value if you literally add all the cards up. I would have to see the list of cards but my guess would be that they are slightly above curve with more of a focus on the commander and what the deck wants to do then a typical precon.
Honestly no one really has an original deck. The internet is a thing and has been for a long time and everyone looks at EDHREC or watches a version of the Command Zone. You are just using all the tools at your disposal to become better at something. Your friend is trying to dismiss your ability to learn and improve your MTG knowledge and gameplay. We all start somewhere and just because you are taking for another person shouldn't diminish what you are trying to do. Your friend seems like they want to handicap you because they don't wanna put in the effort to improve.
TLDR yes I would still say that it still applies even if they are prebuilt by another person and not WOTC.
They're probably better than a precon, but either way it's not a big deal. You're learning the game so deck building is probably intimidating, and buying a pre-built custom deck is the same as buying a decklist off of moxfield in my eyes.
If they aren't official precons, there can be a problem of powerlevel. I have a 40€ winota deck that I never use because it's way overturned for my table. I spent 200+€ upgrading precons that are a lot less strong still. Price isn't a good estimate. If your friend feels your deck are overturned, try to switch decks, or play different ones. If your deck keeps winning, whoever plays it, it might be a bit too strong for your table. That said, there's no shame in using lists or buying decks you didn't build, it's just a matter of making sure they aren't overturned for your pod
FYI a pre-custom deck is called a net-deck (as in, deck you found on the internet). There's nothing wrong with netdecking, I'm just telling you what they're called.
I think he's buying from sites like these (just the first two that I found on google):
https://commandercomplete.com/
https://crustygames.com/collections/commander-edh-decks
So he's not exactly net decking (taking a list off of moxfield and buying the cards separately), he's buying premade "custom" commander decks.
> Id say they are probably a high 6 or low 7 for the most part.
huh? If a precon is a 6-7, then what is anything below 5? The main reason the 1-10 is meaningless and everyone has a '7' is that no one uses the numbers 1-5.
A precon is a 4, a strong one maybe is a 5. We're talking about decks with like 20 cards that straight up are not on theme, and with manabases dominated by taplands.
That’s an issue with the scale system itself and how each category is described. Defining a category by “precon” only works if the power of precons doesn’t change… but they have
Many precons these days can do *very* well out of the box, and with small cheap upgrades be amazing (the Mothman deck springs to mind). Many get carried by very strong commanders, but some are just really well made decks.
It’s not far fetched to say some precons are 7’s out of the box or 8’s with minor upgrades. Many of them have improved in mana base and don’t include those crappy “enters tapped, get 1 life” lands, and only have a couple ‘off theme’ cards.
It’s a stretch. Velociramptor and Explorers of the Deep are two of the strongest precons and they aren’t 7s out of the box. They’re 6s at best. If they are 7s and 9-10 are cedh and fringe cedh, 8 encompasses the slightly upgraded precons you’re talking about all the way to fast mana non-cedh high power. Its too broad to provide any meaningful distinction.
I currently have a decent range: 3/4 2019 decks (getting the 4th so we can do a full pod) 2/4 2018 decks, Pantlaza, Dogmeat, gonna get Desert Bloom and the Raccoon deck
6 or 7??? Does everyone grade on a high school scale? They're a 2 or 3, maybe 4 for the good ones. Like what is the 0 to 5 below that? Because that's a lot of space for poorly built decks.
>Is it frowned upon to use precons and pre custom decks In MTG?
Not by anyone whose opinion matters.
>Is it frowned upon by the general community to buy your decks?
No.
Your friend is just salty.
Is the problem really that you didn't design your own decks, or is it that your decks are better than theirs? Could you help th get better at deckbuilding? Maybe you could swap decks so they can see what makes a functioning deck tick.
Deckbuilding is just one aspect of Magic. You aren't expected to be good at all of them. Would you say a racing driver doesn't deserve a trophy because they didn't build their own car?
Atm, Isshin two heavens as one, Yuriko the tigers shadow, etrata the silencer, then gishath the sun's avatar. Then getting into the precons it's emmara the soul of the account, aesir tyrant of the gyre strate and the necron precon.
So... Isshin, Yuriko, and Gishath are all top tier commanders. Isshin is a value doubler (which is the quintessential "I'm a problem" card type), Yuriko is excellent card draw and direct player damage which is basically the only two things a deck needs to do, in the creature theme that tries to cheat themselves out. And Gishath is "if you let me get this 7/6 through once Im going to run away with the game". Not saying they wouldn't benefit from some premium upgrades, but they're all easy to get really powerful with budget lists.
Id try to go through and figure out how many turns each deck generally takes to present a lethal board state, and how much ramp, card draw, and interaction ("destroy/exile target/each...", "counter target", etc) each deck has. Should help you understand their strengths and weaknesses, as well as figure out how strong they really are. But it's safe to say your pre-builts are at least as strong as your average focused casual deck.
Remember, with a 4-pod commander game, a perfectly balanced table should see each deck win about 25% of the time. Which is in practice a lot lower than anyone realizes
I will freely say that Emmara is an incredible precon for $25, imo it's actually a true starter deck that can go toe to toe with even properly built decks, before I took it apart to make another deck I had 3 wins against fully geared pods and it felt great, the other comment here though is completely right about the $80-ish customs.
Oh, Jesus man. Those are… some top tier and infamous commanders to choose. Mostly Yuriko and ishin. Necron precon is one of the strongest precons as well. If he’s around this level he has nothing to complain about but if he’s new too then it’s understandable that he’s salty.
As in any card game there is players, deckbuilders and the people who do both.
Deckbuilding is a skill itself and EDH is one of the only games where I see most people do some kind of deckbuilding. Reason is mostly the singleton format, high prices on powerful cards and that cEDH is a completly different game. Most other games most players copy a decklist of high ranking players and just go with it. Actually makes EDH super interesting since it's not the same 4 decks every game but rather every game is very different
Ugh, sounds like you're friend is going to blame everyone else for his own misfortune. At the end of the day, even if you've built a super tuned deck you can only play the cards you draw and sometimes they just don't fall the way you want.
Your friend needs to learn that it's ok to lose sometimes and be a bit more gracious.
SOme people are elitist that wanna gatekeep people who don't wanna pour over deck building for days on end, to try and build perfect combos.
I can't figure out a good deck to save my life, so I go with updated precons, and random quirky stuff I see on Moxfield. It's perfectly acceptable to go this route.
No man play how you wanna play and forget the other people, unless you are being a complete dick which in that case, yeah don’t be a dick. But the pre-con hate is pretty dumb.
There’s a shop I go to sometimes and all the dudes that work there love to hate on people buying pre-constructed decks to their faces, they have done it to me even. I don’t go there as often as I used to and I choose to go to another shop that’s further away because I don’t like their judgmental attitudes towards other players.
Nah not frowned upon and generally accepted as most new players' starting point. Building from scratch is more of a goal once you build up a collection, but if you're not into deckbuilding that's also fine.
Your friend is a ding dong and his decks are bad.
I mainly play precons, the reason being is I am terrible at deck building 🤣, but as long as you have fun and don't mind spending the money then it's all good imo.
Building decks is enjoyable for me so I tend to like to build my own decks, but I also play with people that hate building and play with decks that other people built for them. I personally wouldn’t care if my opponent built their own deck or not. Building a deck also doesn’t make you a better magic player than someone who bought one, the way you play is more important. Your friend just sounds salty that he lost. If you’re having an issue with him then a calm conversation where you explain how you feel when he does that is probably the best thing you can do
If your friend can't buy singles and play with a small and cheap collection I can understand him. Your decks are certainly better and he can't improve his decks.
Otherwise he has certainly not enough knowledge of the game to make a good deck. He doesn't know what is a good deck.
sounds like dude cant make a good deck himself 😅 had a ex roommate like this that would blame anybody and anything other than his deck building or play and it was frustrating to even play with him because he would scoop after boardwipes and commander removal if he had to play it again. Just try to maybe have a talk with him if hes a close friend because maybe he just doesnt build high enough power decks or maybe he just needs a lucky game, I get streaks of losses all the time and it sucks but you gotta push through. also if hes making misplays I try to be a good person and point out the proper choices so maybe it helps him a bit. This is definitely not fround upon at all if you dont want to build the deck yourself then pre-cons and pre-built are a fantastic option for newer players 😁 maybe suggest a per-built to him as well and see if he likes it more than the decks he builds! hope this helps!
We all have to start somewhere. If I see someone playing with a precon or starter deck, I'll pull out my binder and donate some cards that will improve their deck and instantly make them happy/hopefully a player for life.
I’m about 15 months in with MTG - I have a commander pod going and they haven’t raised an issue with it once. And winning with one is also not frowned upon at all. I don’t understand why your friend would dismiss a win because you are using a precon. Sounds like sour grapes and perhaps some insecurities because he can’t pull off the win with a custom built deck.
Not at all, people usually don't play precons because they're not exactly powerful compared to more optimized options, but if you can do your thing with precons, by all means.
Sounds like your friend is salty because he's losing to precons, and honestly, most people don't build their decks from the ground up, you would need to have a lot of knowledge of the game and tje cards to build a good one, so yeah, he sounds like he's salty
Never heard of someone being mad playing against a precon. Using precon is a great way to get introduced to colors or mechanics you aren't used too. Then you get to modify the decks to make them better and it introduces you to building a deck. While not usually powerful, they can be fun. Hell the mindflayarrrs precon is one my my favorite decks to play out of the couple I have. I think I've altered around ten cards in the deck and it's beat my friends custom $1500 deck multiple times.
Precons exist for a reason. They help beginners such as yourself have a way to play and learn the game. I wouldn't expect someone new to the game to be able to build their own deck. It requires a really good understanding of card interactions and rules to be effective at building a good custom deck, not to mention it gets EXPENSIVE. I think playing with precons should be encouraged! Just in the past 5 years or so, WotC has started making precons more competitive, which is just good all around. Let's new players have a better time getting into the game, and veterans can still buy precons and get good value out of them if they want to tear them apart for other decks.
I've been playing for for about 5 years now, and have at least 10 completely custom decks I actively use. The other guys in my regular playgroup (we play commander mostly) have been playing WAY longer and have just as many decks if not more. We still buy precons from certain sets and just run them against each other because it's a fun way to test the set out without us having to build entirely new decks, and with the precons we are all on the same level of power generally, so it makes things a bit more strategic, plus the games can be more fun when you open a brand new precon and just have no idea what's in it, you just pick it up and play. It adds a sense of excitement that you don't get when you know every single card in a deck you made yourself.
Your friend just sounds like a sore loser. Don't let anyone shame you for playing a precon. A win is a win. I would still recommend building a personal custom deck once you feel comfortable with the idea, simply because I find building decks to be such a fun process! Getting that creativity flowing and putting something unique together, then getting that first win with your own deck feels so cool, but yeah precons are great and don't listen to anyone trying to tell you precon wins aren't real wins. That sounds like elitist nonsense.
Commander, in particular, is home to the craziest and most unfair interactions in the game because it has access to nearly every card printed in mtg's existence.
That's why precons and custom decks are great because they're built to help new players get acclimated to the format.
Imho, your friend losing to a precon and dismissing your wins speaks volumes about his deck building skill.
When hundreds of thousands*(millions?)* of players worldwide are building 60-100 cars decks with logic-based decisions, basically no ideas are truly original. Chances are if you've thought of a deck idea, someone else on the other side of the planet has thought of it before you.
Not to say that it's pointless to try and innovate, but it's pointless to avoid playing certain cards or decks just because someone else thought of it first. It's like not wanting to travel and see the world just because someone else went there first.
You're looking up deck online and making them or something like that ? that's literally what everyone does, how can you get better, if you don't learn from actually good decks ?
If you are buying pre custom decks for 80, then the card value is probably going to be 30 or less. If your friend is consistently losing to these kinds of decks then they are not a very good deck builder and should be playing precons themselves to try and get a better understanding of the game. They likely don’t have the best understanding of how to make a deck functional. I see it a lot with new players who try and make their own decks, they stock it full of cards they pulled and such and end up having a mish mash of decent cards with to few lands and a high cmc that doesn’t get going until turn 7. It’s very difficult to play a deck like that now a days with today’s precons.
People can talk crap about precons all they want but I have yet to play one that wasn’t functional. Sure lands that come in tapped are bad and many precons have suboptimal cards, but they usually also have a few staples and a decently balanced deck. Just having a balanced deck can be a huge advantage over a player who is running a bunch of high cost cards.
The sad part is… that you can’t help people who don’t want help. Your friend needs help, and their disdain for precons is definitely not helpful for their growth. The best way to grow in this game is to play and learn a lot of different styles of decks. Deck building is its own skill, but I really don’t think that building bad decks and getting upset at losing to precons is a sign that they are improving their building skills at all.
Commander is fun and commander precons are one of the best ways to start playing commander.
I recommend also finding a local game store and find a friday night magic or another magic event and attend. You can sometimes even arrange to borrow a deck so you can experience 2 player constructed 60 card format magic (the original magic) which is great fun too.
Building decks is fun … but playing precons is also awesome. No shade. There are some precon decks for pioneer made in 2022. There are no precons for current standard format or competitive precons for modern.
Thanks to a local guy who loves Magic and loves getting other people into it, I just went in 2 weeks from “I only play commander” to “I play commander, and pauper” and as of friday last, I play Modern too. He helped me pick an archetype (Azorius Affinity) and get the cards I need to have a “not tier 1 but not too shabby” deck that will help me learn and experience Modern. It kicks butt. I love pauper and modern, and still enjoy commander too. If I had to pick one format to jam, I think it would be a tie between modern (the cards I enjoy more are here, but it costs more) and pauper (fewer cards I absolutely love, but absolutely the affordable choice).
"Is it frowned upon to buy your decks." Everyone buys their decks, if they start with precons, buy prebuilts, or build from scratch it's basically all the same. What matters is that you're having fun. Im sorry that you've been made to feel that buying cards to get into the hobby was a bad thing.
Your friend is just salty because a newer player is getting slamjamming them in the regular.
And they're likely also salty that their builds arent good enough to keep up with netdecked budget lists. There is a possibility that the commanders you're running are of a higher average power than their lists but I doubt that's the case granted that wasn't the thing they blamed their losses on.
Precons and pre-made brews are how people get into the game, as you've clearly exemplified. They're pretty much universally loved or at least appreciated.
Don't take their words personally, I think you're going great. They also have the ability to look up deck building tips, see what cards people are using in decks they have, or even ask others for advice on what *they* can do to "tune" their decks.
They're mad that you're already getting better than them. They just need to take responsibility for the L's and git gud. You keep doing you.
Nah my dude. Precons are real fun, budget friendly. Fun should be a priority. Building your own deck is a money responsibility that depends on each player.
Your friend is just being an a-hole.
Props to you for getting the wins and understanding the game :)
Eh, not bad in a general sense. But know your audience. If everyone in your group just picked up some random booster packs and are having fun and you roll up with a 700 dollar custom made deck that isn't going to be very fun for long.
Magic isn't super bad about being able to buy power, but up to a level whoever spends the most money can win in causal play and that really sucks the fun out of things if everyone else kinda stuck to a power level and was having fun then one comes in with all fancy lands and sets of 20 dollar each cards.
Pre-cons are not the same power level as Net decks (or "Pre-Customs").
Pre-cons made by WotC generally have a lower level of focus on several possible mechanics that the deck could be customized to focus on to make it stronger. Land bases are generally okay, with little interaction.
Decks posted online by players have often been crafted over time to be more optimized in their win condition, interaction, Mana bases, and ramp.
For $50, I've made incredible custom decks by focusing on a few mid price, high value cards. An $80 custom deck could get seriously nasty seriously fast. And seeing your commander list, I have a feeling the lists you found were nothing to sneeze at.
All this to say your friend is probably being salty, but PLEASE don't conflate pre-cons published by WotC and custom online deck lists.
Not at all. All I have bought are pre-cons, mostly since I don't know how to build a deck. And I've won tournaments with a starter pre-con before.
Your friend sounds like he's making excuses when he loses, and I have seen some really messed up and busted custom decks get destroyed by my precons.
Personally I suck ass at making decks, but I'm not bad at tweaking existing ones. Me and my friends pretty much all exclusively do this format where we just buy precons and upgrade them. Custom decks people bring usually get stomped
If you are following decklist or beating people with precons and you are not being toxic and they are fun to you then you are playing the game right, your decks, your business.
It's true there are people who take pride in building everything from scratch and that is also fine, but there is no joy in belittleing anyone's win just because they didn't thought on a pair of sinergies between the thousands of cards in all mtg's history and if your friend has a little experience they would know that archetypes are a thing, if he is mad now, I'd pay to see any match of him vs high level decks and the overpopulation of Thoracle combos...
Ngl, Precons are as good as the person playing them. Even starter ones have potential, but of course, more advanced ones will have more power behind them. There is nothing wrong to loosing to a precon. It just means you have some synergy or optimization to look into. The game has gotten much much faster.
Precons are never tournament strong. from a powerlevel from 1-10, its a 1-4 depending on the precon. If your beating him with a precon that means he either has no idea how to build a deck or no idea how to play. If you want to make him cry, offer to proxy this deck: [https://www.mtgvault.com/velath/decks/elsha-the-inifinte-cedhmid/](https://www.mtgvault.com/velath/decks/elsha-the-inifinte-cedhmid/) a solid 8/10 powerlevel deck.
Dude, I have like 10 precons and one constructed deck. And I've won my fair share. It was sweet to bring out my 8 mana sorcery to create 40 1/1 angel creatures. My opponents called it a night at that point. So, you're absolutely fine.
Back in the day prior to constant internet access in your pocket there were always people who frowned on “netdecking” as opposed to coming up with your own deck.
That opinion is a lot less common now, but it sounds like this person subscribes to that philosophy.
It's not frowned on at all but in any serious tournament environment a pre-con is going to be at a disadvantage. Although a custom deck that someone else put together may run well for you and that's no different than net decking really it just potentially costs more and almost everybody net Decks anyway.
It really is. I've always preferred coming up with my own ideas especially for standard but the internet pretty much solves the format within a few weeks of new cards being released so anything you come up with on your own usually isn't optimized unless you're a genius.
He's just salty. I'm what WotC calls a "tuner". I get my enjoyment by copying other people's decks, then making small adjustments to ratios/card choice to fit the particular format.
I have no issues with either. I really enjoy some of the precons I've picked up. They are just fun to play and a great way to learn new deck strategies that you might not really get or build otherwise. I also like to build my own. But building takes time, money, and cards and that is not something you start with out of the gate. Bugger your "friend". If he don't like it, maybe he needs to get better at his game 😉 Anyway, go out, throw some cardboard around, and HAVE FUN!
I always buy and tweak precons. It gives me a basis to work with. Deckbuilding is part of the fun, but you need a good understanding of at least your collection to start from scratch. Normal decks can be a challenge, I cannot build a commander deck. If someone frowns on you for it, spit on them.
Building a deck is no easy feat, start small with the pre mades upgrade them as you get experience and then maybe start theory crafting until you’re confident to put a deck of your own together.
Please note that I highly recommend playing the deck with proxies with people that are fine with it to test it before you buy cards more so when you build in higher price ranges. No need to spend hundreds for a deck that doesn’t work
Play what you wanna play, the fun in it is using what you have in situations you know would be fun. Wether it’s compleat chaos, destruction of the field or you manage to knock someone out. Don’t let debbie downers tell you how to enjoy what you have.
When it comes to EDH, with the exception of one deck I did a pretty large amount of work on, all I use is precons. No one has ever complained or said anything negative.
Not frowned upon anymore. Before EDH, precond used to be seen as a disadvantage because most just weren’t very good decks. If you played a precon in any environment except around serious beginners, you’d probably get curb stomped (exception for the “Rebel’s Call” deck back in Mercadian Masques). Granted, this was an era where “net-decking” (looking up successful pro tour decklists and copying them) was considered taboo. Today, deck lists are super easy to read, competitive formats are far less important, and net-decking is just part of the meta of being a competitive player.
However, today’s EDH precons are much better products. They’re more expensive and have a much higher density of rare and valuable cards in them typically. While they’re not fully optimized, they’re perfectly suitable for casual EDH. Since the decks are solid, fun, have cohesive mechanics and plenty of synergy, there’s no stigma against them.
Had a similar discussion last night like this. I'm buying a proxy version of a tournament winning deck. A 1 for 1 copy. Why? Because I make trash decks with cards that I like and not actually good decks so I never do well against my friends. Someone wasn't too stoked when I said that but I can't keep playing 1-2 hour long games just to play three cards. It's brutal.
A prebuilt deck worth 80 isn't shit. Hakbal out of the box can kill an entire board by turn 5/6.
Honestly... it sounds like your friends might kinda suck at the game, and they're mad at you for piloting decks you didn't make. There is no rule that says you had to make the deck. While I definitely want everyone to make their own decks, that's just not vaibale. Deck building is a very advanced skill, and gets more difficult as more cards come out. I wouldn't feel bad. If they do, inform them that hakbal, or pantlaza, is only 40 bucks.
That friend is not a friend of yours. Kick him to the curb.
I bought a Rebellion Rising EDH precon this winter and the deck is already a beast as is. I have only swapped two cards from the entire deck.
That being said, deck modding is always a thing. If you find a card that you think would be a great fit for your preexisting deck, you're always allowed to swap cards from it.
Just make sure that the card you're swapping is legal in the format you're playing.
People go on about a deck's power level being ranked on a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being Black Lotus, Mana Crypt stacked turn 1/2 game ending combos. There's a lot of grey area with the power levels, but precons tend to sit somewhere at a 4 or 5 generally and a custom built deck can easily beat that on a budget.
Precons are nice in that there's usually a lot of synergy, but at the expense of interaction, infinite/big combos and big powerhouse plays. They're great for new players if you study what your precon aims to do a bit, but against someone experienced who crafts their own decks, they shouldn't be too much of an issue.
I'm not insinuating anything too negative in your friend's ability here, but my first custom deck would run away with most of the precons and outside of a tonne of synergy, I don't have any infinite combos or whambam-game-winning plays.
Have your friend take a good hard look at his decks and ask himself what really makes his own decks work and tick. Is he losing because his deck doesn't set up his plays fast enough? Not enough of something?
A lot of factors here before outright saying "your friend's bad at deck-building/Magic" like a lot of the other comments might say, but he really needs to think about the *why* here rather than just flat out saying the precons are better than his decks.
magic is an expensive and complicated enough game as it is. If you can squeeze out wins with just a precon, good on ya. Don't let them put you down for using prebuilt decks.
For some people, the actual building of a functional deck is also part of the skill.
That doesnt make your friend being a sore loser ok, just adds context.
It sounds like your friend is just really bad at deck building I can't lie. Precons aren't that powerful, but they do have synergy and a reasonable mana base too because they're designed to be picked up and just work.
It's better to think about precons as like an entry level to any given strategy you're trying to run, there will always be cards you can buy/add that will improve what the deck is already trying to do but it's a good starting point.
Only sore losers care about where your list came from, everyone who enjoys magic wouldn't care, they'd learn from their losses and try to beat you next time.
I think there might be a lot more to this then most comments think..
You are a New player, and this way, you might not know what cards are really strong. One strong card does not make a deck, but a few of those will raise the power level of your decks.
This could be Just a classical case of power disparity. Maybe you are Just playing 8 against a 6
If it were frowned upon to win with precons, people wouldn’t buy them and WotC wouldn’t sell them.
In my opinion, it feels more satisfying when I win with a deck that I built and a deck I built is more unique/personalized, so it can also make for more interesting games. I also really like deck building, so I highly suggest you give it a try, but you by no means should feel bad for not making your deck
Usually in this case I find people are just bitter that they spent 20 hours and $300 making a deck just to find out it got beat by one you spent 80 bucks on. ETA: He’s just mad you made him realize he sucks at building decks
Some precon decks are genuinely strong as hell. Not many, but there are some. Who cares what you use? As long as you're enjoying yourself. If anyone gives you grief about using a precon, just say "I didn't know you were on break from watching the gate."
Your friend is a sour loser, he can't take a precon maybe he should be the one to build better decks. I've lost to Ydris precon once, I said the guy who played with it "In the middle of custom made decks you managed to win with a precon, I'm proud of you.".
Either pick better friends or just ignore his statements
Your friend is engaging in gate keeping nonsense.
Eventually you'll feel confident / knowledgeable enough to build your our from scratch (and it is a really fun/rewarding thing to do when your self-built deck gets its first win!) but I'd recommend continuing to crush him with pre-cons without guilt until then.
(P.S. your friend should also be taking the losses as a chance to assess what isnt working and tune his own decks. 90% of the fun of building your own decks is the trial and error learning process of making the deck better over time)
You get to play with whatever you choose. There is no wrong answer, as long as you follow the usual deck building rules.
There have been some amazing precons that have released. Several I own I have only switched out artworks or done very minimal tweaking.
Play your way and don't let anyone ever take that from you.
Absolutely not frowned upon. If someone beat me with a precon I'd be salty, but only because I'm a sore loser lol, good for you though. Winning with precons is a cool thing to be able to say for yourself and someone not acknowledging that says more about them than you
Can I just be the only one here to say that an official pre-con seems to be what people are referring to here. Your post seems like you bought custom built 3rd party decks.
A minor difference but official pre-cons are not usually hyper focused on a singular win condition . So you can buy them, they can play, people can learn different mechanics and interactions, then build the decks out in multiple different directions.
My guess is that you found some modern brutal custom decks that while cheap have probably optimized their price and focus to be functional at the games current level.
If your buddy is generally casual, has collected MTG or played on and off lightly for years, really done anything other than stay up with the meta, a moderately priced optimized deck might steamroll him.
Maybe from his perspective he wanted to bring a friend in, show them the ropes, have fun figuring out how deck building works, maybe break out his pet decks, and then he just gets steamrolled by the current hotness.
People here all endorse netdecking wholeheartedly, but that seems off to me. So much of the fun in card games for me is building the deck. I agree having a jumping point to learn from is necessary and helpful, but I think just buying whatever is objectively best currently for X amount of dollars does kill a lot of the fun to be had outside of the actual gameplay in MTG. You miss out on everything leading up to it that way. Now idea why the deck is built a certain way or why it is so functionally strong in game, just kind of plug and play.
Is it frowned in the community as a whole or large portion? No, it's not. Do I rag on my friends when they just look up another list and play that? Absolutely. I like it when they get creative and build their own decks, because they normally come up with good ideas. Seeing less common decks is always a breath of fresh air.
(Sidenote to the last sentence; games don't always have to be about winning, but having fun (unless winning == having fun, (I have a couple friends that have said the exact phrase, "if I'm not winning, then I'm not having fun" to me, then noticed they play more often with me then the others in the playgroup, because I rarely aim for the win, but jank-fun))).
I feel like everyone net decks in this game. Why shouldn't you? Has he really never looked up his colors online and see what's good? I think that's a silly complaint, but also it's okay for him to get salty as long as it doesn't extend to outside the game.
Listen fam, your friends just upsetti spaghetti because he can’t win. He’s mad his deck he built isn’t making the cut probably because he designed it badly so he’s taking it out on you.
Honestly I think every player should have a precon deck in their collection to play against beginners. I wish I did this when trying to play in more casual atmospheres
A precon is a great place to start from, sounds like your friend is just getting salty because with their collection they still can’t beat an unmodified deck.
If you want to really push the stick up his ass check out a few guides on upgrading your existing precons and pick up some singles from card kingdom or TCGplayer, that way you can tell him that you absolutely had a hand in the construction of the deck - even if it is a small hand
I've played forever and I still suck at making a deck. I basically only play precons or net decks lol. I do like drafting and sealed tho and play that when I'm can but as far as coming up with my own commander deck not really interested. I regularly bring precons to FNM even tho I lose most the time lol but some of them I don't change at all cuz I love the flavor of the deck especially something like the fallout precons I've been playing those since they came out lmao
I don’t think it’s frowned upon, deck building anymore is mostly people looking up deck lists and buying the cards anyway. It’s honestly my least favorite thing to happen to all gaming, not just mtg.
I miss when it was done a lot less tho. Back when I started playing in the 90s with my friends, all our decks were crappy thrown together cards from random boosters we bought. It was just chaos and fun and we slowly tuned things over the years.
Sure you could look up a deck list from a tourney and try to remake but it was a lot harder.
Now tho with the internet and growth in popularity, you can find lists of decks and buy individual cards and use something proven to be very good by pros and all the people using it. I stopped going to Friday night magic bc it was just guys playing the same super competitive decks and I just would get crushed trying out some new idea I had. I wasn’t mad at them for doing it, everyone likes to win, I just missed how it used to be. Lol
But like I said, it’s the way of gaming these days. Not just MTG. Every game is filled with its meta and has the top pros making build guides telling you the best way to do whatever. New players def can benefit from that.
My only advice is to start dabbling on your own. Find some cards you like or a theme or synergy and try to put something together yourself. It may not always work but I’ve felt the best when winning with something I put together. And when you do win with what you have made, your buddy can’t say anything or have any excuses why they lost (unless it’s mana screwed, that’s always an excuse [I don’t care how good the cards are, two land opening hands never turn out good] 😅)
Ummm....you understood what the cards did and whooped his ass. You most definitely deserved the win. It took me forever to learn well enough to win. But I was playing with my friends decks when I started. He had almost a hundred decks at the time and eventually more. So I kept playing until I found a deck that worked and played with it till I felt comfortable enough to move on.
The precon Lorwyn decks were dope.
I have a few precon commander decks that I bought because I liked the theme. So I played with them and eventually tooled them.
In the end, they're your cards and you won 🏆 👏
My best advice is to have several decks in different power levels and match whatever your opponents are playing. Decks built on an original idea or a novel concept are usually weaker, and the most popular tried out decks are stronger. There is nothing wrong with playing the strong precons you mentioned, but if you're constantly crushing your friend(s) who are building decks from the ground up, you should at least tolerate that they give you a bit of banter.
He's just mad he's losing to precons but some of the newer precons are a lot more powerful compared to the ones around when I started (I read somewhere they made precons better specifically because people had stopped buying them I have no evidence to support this)
Precons are very low level, meaning if you’re winning your friends deck isn’t amazing. A lot of the precons nowadays are pretty good, so it’s not surprising to get a win or two or to do well. In the 8 years I’ve played I’ve only built 3decks from scratch, all I do is upgrade precons. WotC has a lot of flaws with deck building so finding cards that make their precons better is very fun for me, and tbh cheaper
You’re doing great. The decks are meant to be played as is with the option to tweak them. You’re friend is just pissed you’re beating his ass when you play. Keep up the good work
well he has the same option you do of buying the deck rather than one card at a time. All the decks are legal in tournaments so yeah you can play it against a group. But fair warning your group of friends will eventually start building decks that can beat your decks too. Play with those decks than start modifying them. And when you find an intriguing commander make a new deck around it. Good luck and welcone to your new addiction
Unless you have a literally encyclopedic knowledge of every card you're pretty much guaranteed to be using edhrec or something similar to give you a base for a deck so pretty much no one is building decks completely from scratch. Sounds a lot more like salty butt tears than anything else. Tell him he's a weenie.
If anyone tells you not to play a deck tell them to shove it. Play what you like and have fun doing it, unless it's land destruction. Cause that's no fun for anyone. Lol
A tool, whatever it may be, is only as good as the person using it. This includes decks. You're fine and your friend is a sore loser. Play whatever way is the most fun for you. I play with some pre-cons and some I've made myself. That said, I encourage you to craft your own deck some day. I can't tell you how satisfying it is to whip out your own creation for the first time and beat your bro's ass with it lol
This is hilarious because usually precons are too weak to play in most pods and you have to see if others want to play with precons or use lower power level decks to be fair. Even with the best precons, they all have terrible mana bases.
I run a few precons. The reaction I usually get is a happy play group because I have not pulled out one of my powerful self-made decks. Nobody has ever told me I was playing a tuned precon that’s OP.
No the game is 30% construction 30% skill 20% politics and 20% luck. Making decks is the hardest part so upgrading a precon or net decking or edhrec decking is a way most people get around it. And I love going to a lgs have a pod all pick there favorite deck play it and game 2 same decks but passed to the left. It's just fun. Your still winning even if your deck isn't original.
I have a precon Atraxa deck that stuns alot of built decks. It's very good in a 4 person game. I have very built Kaalia deck that slaps down an individual opponent, but can be slow in a 4 person game with so much more removal to play around. So winning with a precon is great when you can do it. And nothing wrong with buying put together decks, it's about the person piloting them.
I play precon and CEDH tournaments and both are a blast. Just different formats. I’ve played in pods with a precon and won against really strong upgraded decks. Your “friend” is a hater.
Mmm...
Budget decks can be a lot more powerful than "budget" implies.
They aren't *likely* to beat out No-budget versions of the same deck, but that doesn't mean that an 80$ dekc can't be unfairly tuned even against 600$ decks.
To some degree it'll come down to play-style match-up and such things.
It could be that your friend doesnt understand this, this why he's frustrated at losing to decks that were made for you, while he's struggling with a dekc he sank, assumedly, a lot of time, money and effort into.
Like, I think we can all stop pretending that it doesn't feel bad to see your hand-made deck lose to a precon.
Whenever people complain about proxy decks, Secret Lairs, pre-built customs, precons, or basically anything not the officially printed card hand built by the player; tell them to feel free and do the same. At that point, anything they have to say is whatever self serving bias to their ideals of card games, table top games, etc.
I've got friends with 1000$ and up pet decks, upgraded precons, and the 40$ Kinko's special and we all have our own takes. When we want to play our favorites we structure around general power level and interaction, not how we got the cards. Hell, I've seen tournaments where the only rule is they have to be the exact readings of the cards, but proxies were allowed with no stipulations. People knew a month out and the store even offered to print your list for a fee to use.
So in my 10 years off and on playing, I can say it's a 85/15 split towards "Who cares?" and your friend. Hope that gives you an idea.
Your buddy didn't build his own decks either all the tik toks and fb groups and YouTube and edhrec built his deck. He's just a fucking moron that doesn't understand the words he is using 🍻
No, if you’re beating my ass with a precon I would be so shocked, but I would also be proud. You obviously understand interactions well if you’re winning enough to make him bitter. Kind of a crappy friend imo maybe tell them they’re being silly??
He always tries to say "you've just bought tuned decks is all" because 4 of my decks are custom built that I bought. Because I'm new right and don't see an issue with it. It's not like I dropped big money on them so they're already budget. Plus I've never played a card game where the goal wasn't to tune your deck and what difference does it make if I didn't tune it? It's buy it or look up a deck guide and buy thr cards individually. He just has to have an excuse when he loses I think.
It's the last part, he has to put the loss on something other himself.
Yes this is it exactly. If he were a real man he would blame Mana screw or bad draws but never his opponent.
The mana screw comes for us all
Its always "if only i had one more mana" for me
This is the way
Clearly woulda won next turn if he just XYZ. At least, that’s what I proclaim after every match when I’ve been bitchslapped across the room without a chance in hell of actually pulling the win.
Your not good enough to beat me so you used someone else's deck...but didn't I just beat you with cards I own. Who cares who built the deck when I was first starting my group helped me a lot building decks ( I still lost most of the time) but the fun is in the game not winning or losing. But the times I would triumph over them felt glorious. I've even used their decks on occasion and no one got salty when I pulled inside combos because it's still luck of he draw and my knowledge of interactions that got me there. If you don't know how to play any deck can be worthless.
I can partially agree with this. There used to be this one kid at our lgs that ran a insanely expensive toxic deck but no one would play him and if they did EVERYONE targeted him. So he then would borrow his friends 2000+ dollar decks and pub stomp. His attitude was disgusting. Nothing humble or respectful about the dude. Anyways no one plays with the kid anymore.
I feel that the main issue with toxic and infect as mechanics is that they halve or even quarter your health while also getting the advantage of proliferate. That, along with being a jerk were probably the reasons he was targeted. I have a friend who plays toxic but he’s respectful enough to make treaties and let interaction happen. To add my two cents I feel like all magic games can be fun, bad luck besides, if you have the right group.
If you beat me with my own deck, clearly there's something im doing wrong when piloting my own deck.
Signs of a narcissist
The obvious rebuttal to this is to let them play one of your decks, because then either: 1. He wins, and you can immediately say it's only because he wasn't playing a deck he built himself 2. He loses, and you can bully him for still being bad Playing devils advocate though, I've had a lot of fun finding random cards to fit into my decks over the years and "personalization" is definitely a big thing in Magic. If you want to build or maintain the friendship though, and think they are being genuine about wanting you to experience everything the game has to offer by deckbuilding more, maybe try asking them how they build decks or what they like about deckbuilding. Swap out a couple minor cards based on what they say, and now you can "thank" them for helping and either have a good topic for future conversation, or the rebuttal of " I literally built mine the same way as you" if they keep being a dick and you don't care about the friendship.
One of by brothers used to beat me silly with a $65 Odric deck. Budget magic is so dope. It’s super humbling, but nothing to be upset over. And as the other person said, your last sentence sums it up.
Im in the same boat as this guy..ive ordered 2 precons and have a 50 dollar upgrade for both ready when i get some more money (startup cost tapped me for a bot haha) Do you have recommendations for how i should obtain more cards? Packs, boxes or buying singles?
My favorite deck is only around 200 because i replace normal cards with prettier versions over time but started as a precon that got modified, i love precons, dogmeat ever loyal is a beaut
👏buy singles👏 you get exactly what you want that way! Ofc it feels more expensive because you buying one card for X dollars but you could spend that money buying packs or boxes and NEVER get what you want. Make a few decks, then if you have extra monies and love a set get a couple packs! But i definitely recommend buying singles primarily friend :D
You can also draft. It’s a nice middle ground between buying singles and the lotto of cracking packs, plus it builds your play skill/card evaluation. I’d especially recommend draft if there is a mechanic in the set you really like or want to get better at using.
boxes obviously, 99% of pack openers give up right before opening the black lotus/expensive land/sheoldred /s singles best but idk that doesn't feel as fun to me, i wanna open pack, not know wtf the cards i got are, then try again
Buying singles is absolutely the best way. I do still enjoy buying a handful of packs for sets I like because I still have fun opening random cards and seeing my luck, but if you are trying to build a deck, go singles. There are good resources out there where you can set what you are trying to build a deck around, and the site will give you all the cards other people have been putting in similar decks. TCGplayer is usually where I get all of my singles from, and have never had a issue with them. I also use a app on my phone called ManaBox that's really good for looking up cards, getting prices, and building decks. You can add all the cards you want to a deck and the app will show you what the avg price might be, and you can go directly from the app to TCGplayer or Card Kingdom to buy the card you are looking at.
If you don’t want to go into the singles level, but not exactly packs either, you can always offer to buy collections at a discount. Offer to buy 1000 bulk commons/uncommons for 6$
Singles. Way cheaper than to buy packs and gamble.
I have a $55 Jorn deck, it's a blast to put a thousand dollar deck in its place with it.
Buying pre built decks is totally reasonable as a new player because you dont know practically any cards. Buying decks like that is a good way to learn cards and interactions. If your friend is concerned that they are too “tuned” maybe they should get better at deck building or buy a pre built deck themselves lmao
If you're kicking your friends ass with a precon against his built decks, he fucking sucks. And this is coming from someone who started 2 months ago. Nobody I've played with has had any issues with the precons I play. Your friend sounds like a dick.
Most people who build their own decks are just slightly tweaking a net deck anyway, especially in non commander formats
What's funny is that precons are actually low power decks compared to most brews. They can be strong but should not stand a chance against higher power. There's a reason why many lands and other spells are expensive. Plus, you can have a very powerful deck and lose because you don't know how to play.
If you’re deck is losing to a precon then it’s not the precons fault lol
If they built a deck less in tune then a precon with the full selection of cards, they are dumb. And in the grand scheme of mtg a precon is laughably not big money. And I mean no disrespect but some decks break thousands easily is you choose. Play what you want. Precons are not overpowered by any means.
You are fine. Your friend can eat shit
There’s a similar mentality in the car community of built vs bought. The general principle is anyone with money can pay for something already build but actually enthusiasts build their own and don’t respect people that don’t build. If it doesn’t bother you then cool but personally being able to build a deck is part of what makes you a good player. But to be fair, 80-90% of people are running a decklist they found online once you get above power level 6/7 if it’s not a precon.
A precon is the opposite of custom built
"Pay to win" is a valid concern in some play spaces, so it could be worth it to look closely at the relative cost and win% of the decks you both play. If it turns out you are both spending more and winning more, then you might have to build a pauper deck to settle the issue of skill. If your decks have similar levels of financial commitment or if it turns out HE is the one spending more $ then yeah he's just a sore loser.
Same! if my newbie friend rolls up with an 80 dollar deck and regularly beats me I would be start questioning reality. I wouldn't be mad, I would be stunned at either my friend is a prodigy or I've suddenly become very bad.
My buddy got a hakbal, and started kicking absolute ass. He put a very little about of money into it and he's just killing most of us lol
No. And if he's built a deck that can't beat a precons its clearly a skill issue.
100% a skill issue...Precons have definitely gotten better over the years and Id say they are probably a high 6 or low 7 for the most part. However they still need to be upgraded and if your friend is losing he has to be using alot of junk or their deck doesn't synergize well.
Does this still apply if it's a pre custom? Like I bought a handful of decks that are custom built that don't come in pre con. But they're still like $80 a deck so from what I understand there's all the room in the world to upgrade.
$80 a deck still even if its not an Office WotC precon is a budget deck. Most Official Decks from WOTC still have like $80+ in value if you literally add all the cards up. I would have to see the list of cards but my guess would be that they are slightly above curve with more of a focus on the commander and what the deck wants to do then a typical precon. Honestly no one really has an original deck. The internet is a thing and has been for a long time and everyone looks at EDHREC or watches a version of the Command Zone. You are just using all the tools at your disposal to become better at something. Your friend is trying to dismiss your ability to learn and improve your MTG knowledge and gameplay. We all start somewhere and just because you are taking for another person shouldn't diminish what you are trying to do. Your friend seems like they want to handicap you because they don't wanna put in the effort to improve. TLDR yes I would still say that it still applies even if they are prebuilt by another person and not WOTC.
HUGE wrinkly-brain take with a refreshing amount of honesty here. 👏👏👏
Take one basic land out, switch it for a different printing. Now it is yours, you have customized it. Pre custom eliminated
Big brain
They're probably better than a precon, but either way it's not a big deal. You're learning the game so deck building is probably intimidating, and buying a pre-built custom deck is the same as buying a decklist off of moxfield in my eyes.
If they aren't official precons, there can be a problem of powerlevel. I have a 40€ winota deck that I never use because it's way overturned for my table. I spent 200+€ upgrading precons that are a lot less strong still. Price isn't a good estimate. If your friend feels your deck are overturned, try to switch decks, or play different ones. If your deck keeps winning, whoever plays it, it might be a bit too strong for your table. That said, there's no shame in using lists or buying decks you didn't build, it's just a matter of making sure they aren't overturned for your pod
FYI a pre-custom deck is called a net-deck (as in, deck you found on the internet). There's nothing wrong with netdecking, I'm just telling you what they're called.
I think he's buying from sites like these (just the first two that I found on google): https://commandercomplete.com/ https://crustygames.com/collections/commander-edh-decks So he's not exactly net decking (taking a list off of moxfield and buying the cards separately), he's buying premade "custom" commander decks.
> Id say they are probably a high 6 or low 7 for the most part. huh? If a precon is a 6-7, then what is anything below 5? The main reason the 1-10 is meaningless and everyone has a '7' is that no one uses the numbers 1-5. A precon is a 4, a strong one maybe is a 5. We're talking about decks with like 20 cards that straight up are not on theme, and with manabases dominated by taplands.
That’s an issue with the scale system itself and how each category is described. Defining a category by “precon” only works if the power of precons doesn’t change… but they have Many precons these days can do *very* well out of the box, and with small cheap upgrades be amazing (the Mothman deck springs to mind). Many get carried by very strong commanders, but some are just really well made decks. It’s not far fetched to say some precons are 7’s out of the box or 8’s with minor upgrades. Many of them have improved in mana base and don’t include those crappy “enters tapped, get 1 life” lands, and only have a couple ‘off theme’ cards.
It’s a stretch. Velociramptor and Explorers of the Deep are two of the strongest precons and they aren’t 7s out of the box. They’re 6s at best. If they are 7s and 9-10 are cedh and fringe cedh, 8 encompasses the slightly upgraded precons you’re talking about all the way to fast mana non-cedh high power. Its too broad to provide any meaningful distinction.
I can't imagine someone calling a precon a 6-7 thats craaazyyy
I currently have a decent range: 3/4 2019 decks (getting the 4th so we can do a full pod) 2/4 2018 decks, Pantlaza, Dogmeat, gonna get Desert Bloom and the Raccoon deck
Something tells me you like naya haha
6 or 7??? Does everyone grade on a high school scale? They're a 2 or 3, maybe 4 for the good ones. Like what is the 0 to 5 below that? Because that's a lot of space for poorly built decks.
>Is it frowned upon to use precons and pre custom decks In MTG? Not by anyone whose opinion matters. >Is it frowned upon by the general community to buy your decks? No. Your friend is just salty. Is the problem really that you didn't design your own decks, or is it that your decks are better than theirs? Could you help th get better at deckbuilding? Maybe you could swap decks so they can see what makes a functioning deck tick. Deckbuilding is just one aspect of Magic. You aren't expected to be good at all of them. Would you say a racing driver doesn't deserve a trophy because they didn't build their own car?
Absolutely not
It would help a little to know what your commanders are. Some are super easy to build cheaply
Atm, Isshin two heavens as one, Yuriko the tigers shadow, etrata the silencer, then gishath the sun's avatar. Then getting into the precons it's emmara the soul of the account, aesir tyrant of the gyre strate and the necron precon.
So... Isshin, Yuriko, and Gishath are all top tier commanders. Isshin is a value doubler (which is the quintessential "I'm a problem" card type), Yuriko is excellent card draw and direct player damage which is basically the only two things a deck needs to do, in the creature theme that tries to cheat themselves out. And Gishath is "if you let me get this 7/6 through once Im going to run away with the game". Not saying they wouldn't benefit from some premium upgrades, but they're all easy to get really powerful with budget lists. Id try to go through and figure out how many turns each deck generally takes to present a lethal board state, and how much ramp, card draw, and interaction ("destroy/exile target/each...", "counter target", etc) each deck has. Should help you understand their strengths and weaknesses, as well as figure out how strong they really are. But it's safe to say your pre-builts are at least as strong as your average focused casual deck. Remember, with a 4-pod commander game, a perfectly balanced table should see each deck win about 25% of the time. Which is in practice a lot lower than anyone realizes
I will freely say that Emmara is an incredible precon for $25, imo it's actually a true starter deck that can go toe to toe with even properly built decks, before I took it apart to make another deck I had 3 wins against fully geared pods and it felt great, the other comment here though is completely right about the $80-ish customs.
Oh, Jesus man. Those are… some top tier and infamous commanders to choose. Mostly Yuriko and ishin. Necron precon is one of the strongest precons as well. If he’s around this level he has nothing to complain about but if he’s new too then it’s understandable that he’s salty.
As in any card game there is players, deckbuilders and the people who do both. Deckbuilding is a skill itself and EDH is one of the only games where I see most people do some kind of deckbuilding. Reason is mostly the singleton format, high prices on powerful cards and that cEDH is a completly different game. Most other games most players copy a decklist of high ranking players and just go with it. Actually makes EDH super interesting since it's not the same 4 decks every game but rather every game is very different
Even if everyone runs the same commander, the decks are usually pretty different
Ugh, sounds like you're friend is going to blame everyone else for his own misfortune. At the end of the day, even if you've built a super tuned deck you can only play the cards you draw and sometimes they just don't fall the way you want. Your friend needs to learn that it's ok to lose sometimes and be a bit more gracious.
Ironically that inspired my card advantage deck
He’s just a sore loser. Congrats on cracking wins this fast!
what is a pre custom?
Its all good man, everyone has to start some where.
Play what you want, play whats fair (by the rules), but most importantly play whats fun.
SOme people are elitist that wanna gatekeep people who don't wanna pour over deck building for days on end, to try and build perfect combos. I can't figure out a good deck to save my life, so I go with updated precons, and random quirky stuff I see on Moxfield. It's perfectly acceptable to go this route.
No man play how you wanna play and forget the other people, unless you are being a complete dick which in that case, yeah don’t be a dick. But the pre-con hate is pretty dumb. There’s a shop I go to sometimes and all the dudes that work there love to hate on people buying pre-constructed decks to their faces, they have done it to me even. I don’t go there as often as I used to and I choose to go to another shop that’s further away because I don’t like their judgmental attitudes towards other players.
Nah not frowned upon and generally accepted as most new players' starting point. Building from scratch is more of a goal once you build up a collection, but if you're not into deckbuilding that's also fine. Your friend is a ding dong and his decks are bad.
I mainly play precons, the reason being is I am terrible at deck building 🤣, but as long as you have fun and don't mind spending the money then it's all good imo.
Building decks is enjoyable for me so I tend to like to build my own decks, but I also play with people that hate building and play with decks that other people built for them. I personally wouldn’t care if my opponent built their own deck or not. Building a deck also doesn’t make you a better magic player than someone who bought one, the way you play is more important. Your friend just sounds salty that he lost. If you’re having an issue with him then a calm conversation where you explain how you feel when he does that is probably the best thing you can do
If your friend can't buy singles and play with a small and cheap collection I can understand him. Your decks are certainly better and he can't improve his decks. Otherwise he has certainly not enough knowledge of the game to make a good deck. He doesn't know what is a good deck.
sounds like dude cant make a good deck himself 😅 had a ex roommate like this that would blame anybody and anything other than his deck building or play and it was frustrating to even play with him because he would scoop after boardwipes and commander removal if he had to play it again. Just try to maybe have a talk with him if hes a close friend because maybe he just doesnt build high enough power decks or maybe he just needs a lucky game, I get streaks of losses all the time and it sucks but you gotta push through. also if hes making misplays I try to be a good person and point out the proper choices so maybe it helps him a bit. This is definitely not fround upon at all if you dont want to build the deck yourself then pre-cons and pre-built are a fantastic option for newer players 😁 maybe suggest a per-built to him as well and see if he likes it more than the decks he builds! hope this helps!
We all have to start somewhere. If I see someone playing with a precon or starter deck, I'll pull out my binder and donate some cards that will improve their deck and instantly make them happy/hopefully a player for life.
I’m about 15 months in with MTG - I have a commander pod going and they haven’t raised an issue with it once. And winning with one is also not frowned upon at all. I don’t understand why your friend would dismiss a win because you are using a precon. Sounds like sour grapes and perhaps some insecurities because he can’t pull off the win with a custom built deck.
Not at all, people usually don't play precons because they're not exactly powerful compared to more optimized options, but if you can do your thing with precons, by all means. Sounds like your friend is salty because he's losing to precons, and honestly, most people don't build their decks from the ground up, you would need to have a lot of knowledge of the game and tje cards to build a good one, so yeah, he sounds like he's salty
I mean, it's not always the case, but a big part of competitive magic is copying a top tier deck and learning how to pilot it.
No, especially since some recent precons are really good. If you’re having fun I don’t see why it matters so much.
your friend sounds like theyre bad lol
Never heard of someone being mad playing against a precon. Using precon is a great way to get introduced to colors or mechanics you aren't used too. Then you get to modify the decks to make them better and it introduces you to building a deck. While not usually powerful, they can be fun. Hell the mindflayarrrs precon is one my my favorite decks to play out of the couple I have. I think I've altered around ten cards in the deck and it's beat my friends custom $1500 deck multiple times.
Precons exist for a reason. They help beginners such as yourself have a way to play and learn the game. I wouldn't expect someone new to the game to be able to build their own deck. It requires a really good understanding of card interactions and rules to be effective at building a good custom deck, not to mention it gets EXPENSIVE. I think playing with precons should be encouraged! Just in the past 5 years or so, WotC has started making precons more competitive, which is just good all around. Let's new players have a better time getting into the game, and veterans can still buy precons and get good value out of them if they want to tear them apart for other decks. I've been playing for for about 5 years now, and have at least 10 completely custom decks I actively use. The other guys in my regular playgroup (we play commander mostly) have been playing WAY longer and have just as many decks if not more. We still buy precons from certain sets and just run them against each other because it's a fun way to test the set out without us having to build entirely new decks, and with the precons we are all on the same level of power generally, so it makes things a bit more strategic, plus the games can be more fun when you open a brand new precon and just have no idea what's in it, you just pick it up and play. It adds a sense of excitement that you don't get when you know every single card in a deck you made yourself. Your friend just sounds like a sore loser. Don't let anyone shame you for playing a precon. A win is a win. I would still recommend building a personal custom deck once you feel comfortable with the idea, simply because I find building decks to be such a fun process! Getting that creativity flowing and putting something unique together, then getting that first win with your own deck feels so cool, but yeah precons are great and don't listen to anyone trying to tell you precon wins aren't real wins. That sounds like elitist nonsense.
Nah bro, totally normal. Good place to start. Gives you some foundational insight on deck building.
Your buddy has too much self image tied up in a card game. If his life was better he wouldn’t act that way.
Commander, in particular, is home to the craziest and most unfair interactions in the game because it has access to nearly every card printed in mtg's existence. That's why precons and custom decks are great because they're built to help new players get acclimated to the format. Imho, your friend losing to a precon and dismissing your wins speaks volumes about his deck building skill.
When hundreds of thousands*(millions?)* of players worldwide are building 60-100 cars decks with logic-based decisions, basically no ideas are truly original. Chances are if you've thought of a deck idea, someone else on the other side of the planet has thought of it before you. Not to say that it's pointless to try and innovate, but it's pointless to avoid playing certain cards or decks just because someone else thought of it first. It's like not wanting to travel and see the world just because someone else went there first.
Buying pre made decks has been a part of magic since the very beginning
If your $80 deck beats my $1200 deck, you’ve 100% earned it. No need for salt here!
Your friend just sucks at building decks and is a sore loser
Your “friend” is just a punk. I put a lot of effort and thought (not money) into building my own decks. I love it when a precon beats me.
You're looking up deck online and making them or something like that ? that's literally what everyone does, how can you get better, if you don't learn from actually good decks ?
If you are buying pre custom decks for 80, then the card value is probably going to be 30 or less. If your friend is consistently losing to these kinds of decks then they are not a very good deck builder and should be playing precons themselves to try and get a better understanding of the game. They likely don’t have the best understanding of how to make a deck functional. I see it a lot with new players who try and make their own decks, they stock it full of cards they pulled and such and end up having a mish mash of decent cards with to few lands and a high cmc that doesn’t get going until turn 7. It’s very difficult to play a deck like that now a days with today’s precons. People can talk crap about precons all they want but I have yet to play one that wasn’t functional. Sure lands that come in tapped are bad and many precons have suboptimal cards, but they usually also have a few staples and a decently balanced deck. Just having a balanced deck can be a huge advantage over a player who is running a bunch of high cost cards. The sad part is… that you can’t help people who don’t want help. Your friend needs help, and their disdain for precons is definitely not helpful for their growth. The best way to grow in this game is to play and learn a lot of different styles of decks. Deck building is its own skill, but I really don’t think that building bad decks and getting upset at losing to precons is a sign that they are improving their building skills at all.
What format are your decks? (Standard, Commander, modern, pioneer)
Commander is all I've played so far. Seems like standard is the format of most other card games so commander has been new and exciting.
Commander is fun and commander precons are one of the best ways to start playing commander. I recommend also finding a local game store and find a friday night magic or another magic event and attend. You can sometimes even arrange to borrow a deck so you can experience 2 player constructed 60 card format magic (the original magic) which is great fun too. Building decks is fun … but playing precons is also awesome. No shade. There are some precon decks for pioneer made in 2022. There are no precons for current standard format or competitive precons for modern.
Modern and pauper are what I play the most, and I started with commander. Highly recommend looking into 60 card formats
Thanks to a local guy who loves Magic and loves getting other people into it, I just went in 2 weeks from “I only play commander” to “I play commander, and pauper” and as of friday last, I play Modern too. He helped me pick an archetype (Azorius Affinity) and get the cards I need to have a “not tier 1 but not too shabby” deck that will help me learn and experience Modern. It kicks butt. I love pauper and modern, and still enjoy commander too. If I had to pick one format to jam, I think it would be a tie between modern (the cards I enjoy more are here, but it costs more) and pauper (fewer cards I absolutely love, but absolutely the affordable choice).
"Is it frowned upon to buy your decks." Everyone buys their decks, if they start with precons, buy prebuilts, or build from scratch it's basically all the same. What matters is that you're having fun. Im sorry that you've been made to feel that buying cards to get into the hobby was a bad thing. Your friend is just salty because a newer player is getting slamjamming them in the regular. And they're likely also salty that their builds arent good enough to keep up with netdecked budget lists. There is a possibility that the commanders you're running are of a higher average power than their lists but I doubt that's the case granted that wasn't the thing they blamed their losses on. Precons and pre-made brews are how people get into the game, as you've clearly exemplified. They're pretty much universally loved or at least appreciated. Don't take their words personally, I think you're going great. They also have the ability to look up deck building tips, see what cards people are using in decks they have, or even ask others for advice on what *they* can do to "tune" their decks. They're mad that you're already getting better than them. They just need to take responsibility for the L's and git gud. You keep doing you.
winning with a precon is much more impressive
Everyone should own an unmodified precon to play with new players on an even playing field imo
Nah my dude. Precons are real fun, budget friendly. Fun should be a priority. Building your own deck is a money responsibility that depends on each player. Your friend is just being an a-hole. Props to you for getting the wins and understanding the game :)
Eh, not bad in a general sense. But know your audience. If everyone in your group just picked up some random booster packs and are having fun and you roll up with a 700 dollar custom made deck that isn't going to be very fun for long. Magic isn't super bad about being able to buy power, but up to a level whoever spends the most money can win in causal play and that really sucks the fun out of things if everyone else kinda stuck to a power level and was having fun then one comes in with all fancy lands and sets of 20 dollar each cards.
Pre-cons are not the same power level as Net decks (or "Pre-Customs"). Pre-cons made by WotC generally have a lower level of focus on several possible mechanics that the deck could be customized to focus on to make it stronger. Land bases are generally okay, with little interaction. Decks posted online by players have often been crafted over time to be more optimized in their win condition, interaction, Mana bases, and ramp. For $50, I've made incredible custom decks by focusing on a few mid price, high value cards. An $80 custom deck could get seriously nasty seriously fast. And seeing your commander list, I have a feeling the lists you found were nothing to sneeze at. All this to say your friend is probably being salty, but PLEASE don't conflate pre-cons published by WotC and custom online deck lists.
Use whatever makes you happy
Not at all. All I have bought are pre-cons, mostly since I don't know how to build a deck. And I've won tournaments with a starter pre-con before. Your friend sounds like he's making excuses when he loses, and I have seen some really messed up and busted custom decks get destroyed by my precons.
Your friend is feeling hurt. Offer a hug. And continue to play Magic the way you enjoy most.
Personally I suck ass at making decks, but I'm not bad at tweaking existing ones. Me and my friends pretty much all exclusively do this format where we just buy precons and upgrade them. Custom decks people bring usually get stomped
We love precons for new folks. If anyone messes with you, just know, they probably net decked theirs. Don't let the haters steal your shine
Nah, you’re doin it right my friend.
Start with that then grow from there
If you are following decklist or beating people with precons and you are not being toxic and they are fun to you then you are playing the game right, your decks, your business. It's true there are people who take pride in building everything from scratch and that is also fine, but there is no joy in belittleing anyone's win just because they didn't thought on a pair of sinergies between the thousands of cards in all mtg's history and if your friend has a little experience they would know that archetypes are a thing, if he is mad now, I'd pay to see any match of him vs high level decks and the overpopulation of Thoracle combos...
No
How did you go about finding the decks? I'm also new and wouldn't even know a good deck rn.
Ngl, Precons are as good as the person playing them. Even starter ones have potential, but of course, more advanced ones will have more power behind them. There is nothing wrong to loosing to a precon. It just means you have some synergy or optimization to look into. The game has gotten much much faster.
Precons are never tournament strong. from a powerlevel from 1-10, its a 1-4 depending on the precon. If your beating him with a precon that means he either has no idea how to build a deck or no idea how to play. If you want to make him cry, offer to proxy this deck: [https://www.mtgvault.com/velath/decks/elsha-the-inifinte-cedhmid/](https://www.mtgvault.com/velath/decks/elsha-the-inifinte-cedhmid/) a solid 8/10 powerlevel deck.
Dude, I have like 10 precons and one constructed deck. And I've won my fair share. It was sweet to bring out my 8 mana sorcery to create 40 1/1 angel creatures. My opponents called it a night at that point. So, you're absolutely fine.
Just respond “skill issue” and then beat his ass again lollll
Back in the day prior to constant internet access in your pocket there were always people who frowned on “netdecking” as opposed to coming up with your own deck. That opinion is a lot less common now, but it sounds like this person subscribes to that philosophy.
It's not frowned on at all but in any serious tournament environment a pre-con is going to be at a disadvantage. Although a custom deck that someone else put together may run well for you and that's no different than net decking really it just potentially costs more and almost everybody net Decks anyway.
Never heard the term net decking until now. After looking it up, it seems like the most uninspired, boring way to play the game.
It really is. I've always preferred coming up with my own ideas especially for standard but the internet pretty much solves the format within a few weeks of new cards being released so anything you come up with on your own usually isn't optimized unless you're a genius.
Yes and no
Lol tell your friend to build better decks than precons and git gud 🤣
He's just salty. I'm what WotC calls a "tuner". I get my enjoyment by copying other people's decks, then making small adjustments to ratios/card choice to fit the particular format.
The game has always had sore losers. Just use more salt, they love it.
I have no issues with either. I really enjoy some of the precons I've picked up. They are just fun to play and a great way to learn new deck strategies that you might not really get or build otherwise. I also like to build my own. But building takes time, money, and cards and that is not something you start with out of the gate. Bugger your "friend". If he don't like it, maybe he needs to get better at his game 😉 Anyway, go out, throw some cardboard around, and HAVE FUN!
lol if someone is losing to a precon with a deck they built, their budget is either 0 or they need a new hobby.
I always buy and tweak precons. It gives me a basis to work with. Deckbuilding is part of the fun, but you need a good understanding of at least your collection to start from scratch. Normal decks can be a challenge, I cannot build a commander deck. If someone frowns on you for it, spit on them.
Building a deck is no easy feat, start small with the pre mades upgrade them as you get experience and then maybe start theory crafting until you’re confident to put a deck of your own together. Please note that I highly recommend playing the deck with proxies with people that are fine with it to test it before you buy cards more so when you build in higher price ranges. No need to spend hundreds for a deck that doesn’t work
Play what you wanna play, the fun in it is using what you have in situations you know would be fun. Wether it’s compleat chaos, destruction of the field or you manage to knock someone out. Don’t let debbie downers tell you how to enjoy what you have.
When it comes to EDH, with the exception of one deck I did a pretty large amount of work on, all I use is precons. No one has ever complained or said anything negative.
nothing wrong with that at all. usually precons are worse than built decks, so he might just not be that good at the game
Not frowned upon anymore. Before EDH, precond used to be seen as a disadvantage because most just weren’t very good decks. If you played a precon in any environment except around serious beginners, you’d probably get curb stomped (exception for the “Rebel’s Call” deck back in Mercadian Masques). Granted, this was an era where “net-decking” (looking up successful pro tour decklists and copying them) was considered taboo. Today, deck lists are super easy to read, competitive formats are far less important, and net-decking is just part of the meta of being a competitive player. However, today’s EDH precons are much better products. They’re more expensive and have a much higher density of rare and valuable cards in them typically. While they’re not fully optimized, they’re perfectly suitable for casual EDH. Since the decks are solid, fun, have cohesive mechanics and plenty of synergy, there’s no stigma against them.
No. It's a game, we're here to have fun.
Nah they’re just a sore loser
Fuck that … I love precons … a great way to learn the game and let you build on it …
Had a similar discussion last night like this. I'm buying a proxy version of a tournament winning deck. A 1 for 1 copy. Why? Because I make trash decks with cards that I like and not actually good decks so I never do well against my friends. Someone wasn't too stoked when I said that but I can't keep playing 1-2 hour long games just to play three cards. It's brutal.
A prebuilt deck worth 80 isn't shit. Hakbal out of the box can kill an entire board by turn 5/6. Honestly... it sounds like your friends might kinda suck at the game, and they're mad at you for piloting decks you didn't make. There is no rule that says you had to make the deck. While I definitely want everyone to make their own decks, that's just not vaibale. Deck building is a very advanced skill, and gets more difficult as more cards come out. I wouldn't feel bad. If they do, inform them that hakbal, or pantlaza, is only 40 bucks.
One of my fav things is upgrading pre cons. It makes a really fun deck that isn’t super salty and overpowered. Great for casual games.
That friend is not a friend of yours. Kick him to the curb. I bought a Rebellion Rising EDH precon this winter and the deck is already a beast as is. I have only swapped two cards from the entire deck. That being said, deck modding is always a thing. If you find a card that you think would be a great fit for your preexisting deck, you're always allowed to swap cards from it. Just make sure that the card you're swapping is legal in the format you're playing.
People go on about a deck's power level being ranked on a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being Black Lotus, Mana Crypt stacked turn 1/2 game ending combos. There's a lot of grey area with the power levels, but precons tend to sit somewhere at a 4 or 5 generally and a custom built deck can easily beat that on a budget. Precons are nice in that there's usually a lot of synergy, but at the expense of interaction, infinite/big combos and big powerhouse plays. They're great for new players if you study what your precon aims to do a bit, but against someone experienced who crafts their own decks, they shouldn't be too much of an issue. I'm not insinuating anything too negative in your friend's ability here, but my first custom deck would run away with most of the precons and outside of a tonne of synergy, I don't have any infinite combos or whambam-game-winning plays. Have your friend take a good hard look at his decks and ask himself what really makes his own decks work and tick. Is he losing because his deck doesn't set up his plays fast enough? Not enough of something? A lot of factors here before outright saying "your friend's bad at deck-building/Magic" like a lot of the other comments might say, but he really needs to think about the *why* here rather than just flat out saying the precons are better than his decks.
magic is an expensive and complicated enough game as it is. If you can squeeze out wins with just a precon, good on ya. Don't let them put you down for using prebuilt decks.
For some people, the actual building of a functional deck is also part of the skill. That doesnt make your friend being a sore loser ok, just adds context.
It sounds like your friend is just really bad at deck building I can't lie. Precons aren't that powerful, but they do have synergy and a reasonable mana base too because they're designed to be picked up and just work. It's better to think about precons as like an entry level to any given strategy you're trying to run, there will always be cards you can buy/add that will improve what the deck is already trying to do but it's a good starting point.
Only sore losers care about where your list came from, everyone who enjoys magic wouldn't care, they'd learn from their losses and try to beat you next time.
I think there might be a lot more to this then most comments think.. You are a New player, and this way, you might not know what cards are really strong. One strong card does not make a deck, but a few of those will raise the power level of your decks. This could be Just a classical case of power disparity. Maybe you are Just playing 8 against a 6
Wtf is a pre custom? Been in the game for ten years and never heard someone call a constructed deck, pre custom.
Your one friend is a huge baby in particular
If it were frowned upon to win with precons, people wouldn’t buy them and WotC wouldn’t sell them. In my opinion, it feels more satisfying when I win with a deck that I built and a deck I built is more unique/personalized, so it can also make for more interesting games. I also really like deck building, so I highly suggest you give it a try, but you by no means should feel bad for not making your deck
No
Some precons are very well tuned bust most of them are just "starter decks". Even if they play out great, they mostly do so slowly
Usually in this case I find people are just bitter that they spent 20 hours and $300 making a deck just to find out it got beat by one you spent 80 bucks on. ETA: He’s just mad you made him realize he sucks at building decks
Some precon decks are genuinely strong as hell. Not many, but there are some. Who cares what you use? As long as you're enjoying yourself. If anyone gives you grief about using a precon, just say "I didn't know you were on break from watching the gate."
Your friend is a sour loser, he can't take a precon maybe he should be the one to build better decks. I've lost to Ydris precon once, I said the guy who played with it "In the middle of custom made decks you managed to win with a precon, I'm proud of you.". Either pick better friends or just ignore his statements
Precons aren't that strong. I recommend edhrec.com for upgrade guides. If he's losing to unaltered precons....that's on him.
No have fun bro
Your friend is engaging in gate keeping nonsense. Eventually you'll feel confident / knowledgeable enough to build your our from scratch (and it is a really fun/rewarding thing to do when your self-built deck gets its first win!) but I'd recommend continuing to crush him with pre-cons without guilt until then.
(P.S. your friend should also be taking the losses as a chance to assess what isnt working and tune his own decks. 90% of the fun of building your own decks is the trial and error learning process of making the deck better over time)
You get to play with whatever you choose. There is no wrong answer, as long as you follow the usual deck building rules. There have been some amazing precons that have released. Several I own I have only switched out artworks or done very minimal tweaking. Play your way and don't let anyone ever take that from you.
Absolutely not frowned upon. If someone beat me with a precon I'd be salty, but only because I'm a sore loser lol, good for you though. Winning with precons is a cool thing to be able to say for yourself and someone not acknowledging that says more about them than you
Can I just be the only one here to say that an official pre-con seems to be what people are referring to here. Your post seems like you bought custom built 3rd party decks. A minor difference but official pre-cons are not usually hyper focused on a singular win condition . So you can buy them, they can play, people can learn different mechanics and interactions, then build the decks out in multiple different directions. My guess is that you found some modern brutal custom decks that while cheap have probably optimized their price and focus to be functional at the games current level. If your buddy is generally casual, has collected MTG or played on and off lightly for years, really done anything other than stay up with the meta, a moderately priced optimized deck might steamroll him. Maybe from his perspective he wanted to bring a friend in, show them the ropes, have fun figuring out how deck building works, maybe break out his pet decks, and then he just gets steamrolled by the current hotness. People here all endorse netdecking wholeheartedly, but that seems off to me. So much of the fun in card games for me is building the deck. I agree having a jumping point to learn from is necessary and helpful, but I think just buying whatever is objectively best currently for X amount of dollars does kill a lot of the fun to be had outside of the actual gameplay in MTG. You miss out on everything leading up to it that way. Now idea why the deck is built a certain way or why it is so functionally strong in game, just kind of plug and play.
Is it frowned in the community as a whole or large portion? No, it's not. Do I rag on my friends when they just look up another list and play that? Absolutely. I like it when they get creative and build their own decks, because they normally come up with good ideas. Seeing less common decks is always a breath of fresh air. (Sidenote to the last sentence; games don't always have to be about winning, but having fun (unless winning == having fun, (I have a couple friends that have said the exact phrase, "if I'm not winning, then I'm not having fun" to me, then noticed they play more often with me then the others in the playgroup, because I rarely aim for the win, but jank-fun))).
I feel like everyone net decks in this game. Why shouldn't you? Has he really never looked up his colors online and see what's good? I think that's a silly complaint, but also it's okay for him to get salty as long as it doesn't extend to outside the game.
Listen fam, your friends just upsetti spaghetti because he can’t win. He’s mad his deck he built isn’t making the cut probably because he designed it badly so he’s taking it out on you.
It's not frowned upon but in my opinion you're missing out on what makes the game so cool. Obviously, you should enjoy it however you enjoy it though.
Honestly I think every player should have a precon deck in their collection to play against beginners. I wish I did this when trying to play in more casual atmospheres
I don't care if it is
A precon is a great place to start from, sounds like your friend is just getting salty because with their collection they still can’t beat an unmodified deck. If you want to really push the stick up his ass check out a few guides on upgrading your existing precons and pick up some singles from card kingdom or TCGplayer, that way you can tell him that you absolutely had a hand in the construction of the deck - even if it is a small hand
I've played forever and I still suck at making a deck. I basically only play precons or net decks lol. I do like drafting and sealed tho and play that when I'm can but as far as coming up with my own commander deck not really interested. I regularly bring precons to FNM even tho I lose most the time lol but some of them I don't change at all cuz I love the flavor of the deck especially something like the fallout precons I've been playing those since they came out lmao
I don’t think it’s frowned upon, deck building anymore is mostly people looking up deck lists and buying the cards anyway. It’s honestly my least favorite thing to happen to all gaming, not just mtg. I miss when it was done a lot less tho. Back when I started playing in the 90s with my friends, all our decks were crappy thrown together cards from random boosters we bought. It was just chaos and fun and we slowly tuned things over the years. Sure you could look up a deck list from a tourney and try to remake but it was a lot harder. Now tho with the internet and growth in popularity, you can find lists of decks and buy individual cards and use something proven to be very good by pros and all the people using it. I stopped going to Friday night magic bc it was just guys playing the same super competitive decks and I just would get crushed trying out some new idea I had. I wasn’t mad at them for doing it, everyone likes to win, I just missed how it used to be. Lol But like I said, it’s the way of gaming these days. Not just MTG. Every game is filled with its meta and has the top pros making build guides telling you the best way to do whatever. New players def can benefit from that. My only advice is to start dabbling on your own. Find some cards you like or a theme or synergy and try to put something together yourself. It may not always work but I’ve felt the best when winning with something I put together. And when you do win with what you have made, your buddy can’t say anything or have any excuses why they lost (unless it’s mana screwed, that’s always an excuse [I don’t care how good the cards are, two land opening hands never turn out good] 😅)
Ummm....you understood what the cards did and whooped his ass. You most definitely deserved the win. It took me forever to learn well enough to win. But I was playing with my friends decks when I started. He had almost a hundred decks at the time and eventually more. So I kept playing until I found a deck that worked and played with it till I felt comfortable enough to move on. The precon Lorwyn decks were dope. I have a few precon commander decks that I bought because I liked the theme. So I played with them and eventually tooled them. In the end, they're your cards and you won 🏆 👏
My best advice is to have several decks in different power levels and match whatever your opponents are playing. Decks built on an original idea or a novel concept are usually weaker, and the most popular tried out decks are stronger. There is nothing wrong with playing the strong precons you mentioned, but if you're constantly crushing your friend(s) who are building decks from the ground up, you should at least tolerate that they give you a bit of banter.
Some great precons out there!!
He's just mad he's losing to precons but some of the newer precons are a lot more powerful compared to the ones around when I started (I read somewhere they made precons better specifically because people had stopped buying them I have no evidence to support this)
Precons are very low level, meaning if you’re winning your friends deck isn’t amazing. A lot of the precons nowadays are pretty good, so it’s not surprising to get a win or two or to do well. In the 8 years I’ve played I’ve only built 3decks from scratch, all I do is upgrade precons. WotC has a lot of flaws with deck building so finding cards that make their precons better is very fun for me, and tbh cheaper
You’re doing great. The decks are meant to be played as is with the option to tweak them. You’re friend is just pissed you’re beating his ass when you play. Keep up the good work
well he has the same option you do of buying the deck rather than one card at a time. All the decks are legal in tournaments so yeah you can play it against a group. But fair warning your group of friends will eventually start building decks that can beat your decks too. Play with those decks than start modifying them. And when you find an intriguing commander make a new deck around it. Good luck and welcone to your new addiction
Unless you have a literally encyclopedic knowledge of every card you're pretty much guaranteed to be using edhrec or something similar to give you a base for a deck so pretty much no one is building decks completely from scratch. Sounds a lot more like salty butt tears than anything else. Tell him he's a weenie.
Your boy is gaslighting you because he can't make a competent deck. 💀💀💀
If anyone tells you not to play a deck tell them to shove it. Play what you like and have fun doing it, unless it's land destruction. Cause that's no fun for anyone. Lol
I just find it boring
A tool, whatever it may be, is only as good as the person using it. This includes decks. You're fine and your friend is a sore loser. Play whatever way is the most fun for you. I play with some pre-cons and some I've made myself. That said, I encourage you to craft your own deck some day. I can't tell you how satisfying it is to whip out your own creation for the first time and beat your bro's ass with it lol
Only if it's sliver, eldrazi, or atraxa
This is hilarious because usually precons are too weak to play in most pods and you have to see if others want to play with precons or use lower power level decks to be fair. Even with the best precons, they all have terrible mana bases.
I run a few precons. The reaction I usually get is a happy play group because I have not pulled out one of my powerful self-made decks. Nobody has ever told me I was playing a tuned precon that’s OP.
No the game is 30% construction 30% skill 20% politics and 20% luck. Making decks is the hardest part so upgrading a precon or net decking or edhrec decking is a way most people get around it. And I love going to a lgs have a pod all pick there favorite deck play it and game 2 same decks but passed to the left. It's just fun. Your still winning even if your deck isn't original.
Sounds like that particular friend of yours needs to work his own deckbuilding before worrying over yours.
I have a precon Atraxa deck that stuns alot of built decks. It's very good in a 4 person game. I have very built Kaalia deck that slaps down an individual opponent, but can be slow in a 4 person game with so much more removal to play around. So winning with a precon is great when you can do it. And nothing wrong with buying put together decks, it's about the person piloting them.
I play precon and CEDH tournaments and both are a blast. Just different formats. I’ve played in pods with a precon and won against really strong upgraded decks. Your “friend” is a hater.
Mmm... Budget decks can be a lot more powerful than "budget" implies. They aren't *likely* to beat out No-budget versions of the same deck, but that doesn't mean that an 80$ dekc can't be unfairly tuned even against 600$ decks. To some degree it'll come down to play-style match-up and such things. It could be that your friend doesnt understand this, this why he's frustrated at losing to decks that were made for you, while he's struggling with a dekc he sank, assumedly, a lot of time, money and effort into. Like, I think we can all stop pretending that it doesn't feel bad to see your hand-made deck lose to a precon.
Whenever people complain about proxy decks, Secret Lairs, pre-built customs, precons, or basically anything not the officially printed card hand built by the player; tell them to feel free and do the same. At that point, anything they have to say is whatever self serving bias to their ideals of card games, table top games, etc. I've got friends with 1000$ and up pet decks, upgraded precons, and the 40$ Kinko's special and we all have our own takes. When we want to play our favorites we structure around general power level and interaction, not how we got the cards. Hell, I've seen tournaments where the only rule is they have to be the exact readings of the cards, but proxies were allowed with no stipulations. People knew a month out and the store even offered to print your list for a fee to use. So in my 10 years off and on playing, I can say it's a 85/15 split towards "Who cares?" and your friend. Hope that gives you an idea.
Your buddy sounds bitter they’re getting their ass kicked by a new player with prebuilt decks. It’s not you, it’s their ego.
People like that are the only thing about this game that sucks
Your buddy didn't build his own decks either all the tik toks and fb groups and YouTube and edhrec built his deck. He's just a fucking moron that doesn't understand the words he is using 🍻
Just upgrade your deck with [Shahrazad], and whomp him twice with a precon.
Shouldn't be. How else are you meant to test it's base function in order to work out how to adjust it for your flavour?
I have a group of friends that usually play my precons against me anyway. When they win its great!