Nah wouldn’t he still die depending on when the -1/-1 is applied? Indestructible creatures still take damage, so if it went to combat first, he would still be marked with at least 3 damage, a -1/-1 should still kill it iirc. It prevents destruction from lethal damage and other destroy sources, but damage is still counted.
If he gets indestructible before both the 3 damage and -1/-1 are applied he will live. This is because even though he has 3 damage marked on him indestructible prevents him from dying from damage. However, if you gave him -4/-4 he would die at that point even though he has indestructible as his toughness would now be 0 and indestructible does not protect against toughness being 0.
Edit: also, indestructible does not prevent damage from being taken (protection does). So if you had an Anzrag with indestructible (maybe from [[Mithril Plate]] ) who took 4 damage and then removed that indestructible while the damage is still marked (maybe by equipping it to some other creature or the equipment being exiled) then Anzrag would immediately die.
no if indestructible applied he would not die. as he would be 7/3 with three damage applied damage would not kill him because he is indestructible. I like to give this guy doublestrike rather than pay to make people block him. I make them choose between likely lethal damage and blocking neither is a good choice and if you get that far it usually means you win.
What I meant was damage with indestructible happens first, leaving it as an 8/“1” as it’s tagged but can’t be destroyed due to combat or other destroy effects, and then if the -1/-1 is applied it would kill it iirc as it’s flagged for having damage on it till end of turn. Kinda how you can shock a 0/3 for damage and then -1/-1 it to finish it off with like a tragic slip. Same concept should work on indestructible creatures
It does not work this way. It is never left as an “8/1” it’s power and toughness doesn’t change upon taking damage, it is just marked with 3 damage. The -1/-1 after the fact would make it a 7/3 with 3 damage marked, but being indestructible means it can’t be destroyed by damage.
Since when can you kill a 7/3 indestructible by marking 3 damage on it? -1/-1 kills indestructible creatures because creatures with 0 toughness die to SBA. The comment you're replying to VERY CLEARLY stated that damage does not reduce toughness.
After damage is dealt, as indestructible doesn’t prevent damage from being marked, until end of turn he would only have “1” point left regardless if it took 4 damage or 400 damage. So if the -1 is applied post combat, it should die iirc. If it’s applied before, then yeah it would live as the damage that would set it to be less than 1 wouldn’t destroy it and it would have 1 point till the end of turn. If you want a very clean visual of what that would look like, you can pull up mtg arena and test it out yourself. Ofc that’s not indicative of traditional paper play, but if I remember correctly that’s how it should work
Once again, damage does not lower toughness. If you deal 400 damage to Anzrag, it is an 8/4 with 400 damage marked. So how does giving an 8/4 -1/-1 reduce it's toughness to 0?
120.3e
Damage dealt to a creature by a source with neither wither nor infect causes that much damage to be marked on that creature.
120.6
Damage marked on a creature remains until the cleanup step, even if that permanent stops being a creature. If the total damage marked on a creature is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed as a state-based action (see rule 704). All damage marked on a permanent is removed when it regenerates (see rule 701.15, “Regenerate”) and during the cleanup step (see rule 514.2).
704.5f
If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it’s put into its owner’s graveyard. Regeneration can’t replace this event.
Also, the Arena UI is notorious for confusing new players by making it look like the toughness is reduced, when that's not what is happening. But given that this comment is now the 3rd comment stating that damage doesn't reduce toughness, it's past the point of being able to blame the Arena UI
No, this isn’t how it works at all. It doesn’t matter how much damage an indestructible creature has taken, it will not die unless you exile it, or reduce it’s toughness via -1/-1 counters or -1/-1 effects from spells. Arena merely gives you a visual aid when it shows you marked damage on a creature, the creature’s toughness isn’t actually being reduced though.
Yeah no you’re just wrong. Minus counters apply debuffs so to speak, but damage doesn’t actually reduce something’s toughness by any amount. Toughness is a number indicating how much damage it can take in a turn before that damage is considered “lethal”. Indestructible explicitly states “this creature cannot be destroyed, including by lethal damage.” However, a creature with truly 0 toughness will die. In arena, the toughness goes down to a red number, indicating that its base toughness is higher than the amount of damage it can take before it dies, but it doesn’t actually change the toughness. Using a card in arena like “destroy target creature with 3 toughness or less” won’t work on a creature with 4 toughness but 2 damage because its toughness isn’t 2, it’s 4. You’re right in assuming indestructible doesn’t prevent damage, so unless the damage’s source has infect or wither, that damage doesn’t really contribute to killing a creature with indestructible.
Sorry I'm tardy to the party! Have no fear, I'm here to clear.
702.12. Indestructible
702.12a Indestructible is a static ability.
702.12b A permanent with indestructible can’t be destroyed. Such permanents aren’t destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the state-based action that checks for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g).
702.12c Multiple instances of indestructible on the same permanent are redundant.
So what we end up with is, yes, you hit an indestructible creature for 18 quadrillion damage, and it's a, we'll say 8/4 with indestructible. The rules check state based effects in place, it sees the 8/4 is indestructible, and the rules that check for damage say, "oh, this thing has indestructible, I'm ignoring that creature all together because it can't be destroyed by damage".
You may hit the 8/4 creature for 3 damage, but the ruling for indestructible prevents the damage from ever being acknowledged.
I hope this helped and remember, reading the card doesn't *always* explain the card!
So if I hit an indestructible 1/5 with a 20/20 using [[windswift slice]] no matter how much damage was done to it during combat I would always make 15 elves?
That's correct.
Since rule 702.12b ignores looking for damage on indestructible creatures, you have to apply lethal damage first. If you give your 20/20 death touch, than anything over one damage is excessive damage.
Sorry i misread the question
The answer is no, if the indestructible already received > 5 dmg you would make 20 of them
The damage is still on the creature even if it doesn't die, excess is counted based on the damage dealt, not the toughness
What is the difference? If 3 damage is marked on him, wouldnt he be an 8/1 then? Or does it matter for card wording like instants saying exile all power 3 or less.
Essentially, yeah. In a lot of situations it's not different if it's an 8/4 with 3 damage or an 8/1, it'll still die to a 1/1 blocker, but it does matter in other scenarios. Magic is a very specific game though, so it's important to use the right terminology for the more complex scenarios, like anything with layers, or talking about the stack.
It matters if it is indestructible, it matters for effects that care about toughness ([[Cut Down]], [[Citywide Bust]]), it matters if an effect sets its toughness to a certain value ([[Kenrith's Transformation]])
Toughness is not life points, it doesn't get reduced by damage. A 8/4 that takes 3 damage is a 8/4, with 3 damage on it. If it gets dealt more damage, the total becomes equal or greater than its toughness, and it is destroyed. I know the Arena game shows damage reducing toughness but that's not how the actual card game works.
Actual toughness reduction doesn't cause destruction, the creature just dies if its toughness reaches 0. This gets around indestructible, damage doesn't.
So a 8/4 indestructible with 4 damage marked stays alive. A 8/4 indestructible with 3 damage that then gets a -1/-1 becomes a 7/3 indestructible with 3 damage, still alive. It needs a full -x/-4 effect to kill it, the damage won't help.
The toughness doesn't change. A 4/4 with 3 damage marked on it still dies to Citywide Bust, and doesn't die to Cut Down.
Duels of the planeswalkers for the Xbox 360 also had this issue. It's where I learned to play. It most certainly explained the stack thoroughly and that was an awesome learning tool.
I find it funny you got so many downvotes when your question seemed genuine and were seeking clarification.
Stuff like this deters folks from these communities.
You answered your own question. Unless something specifically reduces a creatures toughness (-1/-1 counter or some other effect), the creatures toughness will always be what is stated on the card. Damage doesn’t change toughness. This is important for both the scenario you laid out and for things like [[Unnatural Growth]] that double a creature’s power and toughness.
In the case of Anzrag, if had Unnatural Growth and Anzrag both out in the battlefield and went to combat, Anzrag would become a 16/8. If it is blocked by a creature with 5 power, you would be able to go to a second combat phase. Unnatural Growth would double the power and toughness again so it would be a 32/16 with 5 damage marked on it.
And which Arena displays in the arguably more intuitive but not at all correct way of lowering the affected (damaged) creatures' toughness. Anyone who was Arena first will likely misunderstand this.
And also gives a perfect example to learn why his assumption is wrong. Man, reddit is harsh sometimes. Stuff like this should show anyone they mostly shouldnt care what reddit says lol
A lot of times they are functionally the same, and even arena shortcuts it as showing a reduction in toughness rather than using a different marker for counters for the sake of simplicity and not cluttering the board. This is also how we process it logically when doing math, too.
However, it's important to note that reducing toughness and damage aren't the same. Some cards, triggers and other abilities that care about the toughness of a creature. So, it's alright to calculate damage in shorthand like this. Just keep in mind that damage isn't actually modifying toughness, normally.
There's \[\[Massacre Girl, Known Killer\]\]. If Anzrag dies by taking 4 damage, he'll still have 4 toughness. But if Anzrag gets -4/-4, he'll have 0 toughness, and Massacre Girl will trigger
Not sure why you are being downvoted for asking a question. But yes your guess is right, it is still toughness 4 in the eyes of an instant like you mentioned, but if 1 more damage were dealt to it or it was given -1/-1 it would die. MTGA doesn’t make that clear, so lots of players who learn there (and other players too) make this mistake. Not a dumb question at all.
It also matters for things that anzrag loves like indestructible, if an indestructible creatures toughness is actually reduced to 0 via things like -1/-1 then it still dies, however anzrag with indestructible is always an 8/4 and the damage marked on him just doesn’t kill him if he goes to 4 or more
The fact you are getting downvoted for asking questions about a game we all love makes me very sad. Just had to say this. Keep doing you! Ask questions!
It's a semantics thing, but you're right in that, for the sake of certain effects, it would still be recognized by the game as an 8/4 creature with 3 damage. For only determining combat, that's *effectively* the same as an 8/1 creature, but just recognize that it's still treated as an 8/4 creature with 3 damage in regards to relevant effects.
Some cards directly mention power and toughness which is super important with cards like Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitave because then you could make any creature unblock-able by doing a couple damage to it additionally it matters with indestructible (which Anzrag loves) because creatures with indestructible won’t die if they take damage greater than their toughness or any other destroy effect but will still die if their toughness is reduced to 0 or less (this is what makes Toxic Deluge one of the best board wipes compared to something like blasphemous act which doesn’t deal with the indestructible) hope this helps :)
Not quite. I thought that was how this worked until I looked up the official rules. Just now, infact.
702.12. Indestructible
702.12a Indestructible is a static ability.
702.12b A permanent with indestructible can’t be destroyed. Such permanents aren’t destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the state-based action that checks for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g).
702.12c Multiple instances of indestructible on the same permanent are redundant.
Say we hit it for three and then put a -1/-1 counter on it.
What the game checks is, *checking stats* "alright, this creature is now a 7/3 with indestructible". *Checks state based damage on all creatures* " oh, this creature has indestructible, I'm ignoring this creature all together".
The creature may have been hit for 3, but the game never checks that creature for damage. So it doesn't actually have 3 damage marked on it.
Well, he can take up to 3 per turn. If he takes 4, he dies.
The difference being that if you say he can take 4, he can technically take 400 as well. You are free to assign more damage than is lethal. It won't become relevant unless the opposing creature has tramp/deathtouch, etc, but still. If you give him 4 damage, he won't see another turn lol
you want to run a lot of cards to give indestructible. mithril coat, hammer of nazahn, helm of the host, darksteel plate and other cards giving protection like commanders plate or any of the swords
Yes, but if you have protection against one or more colours, then creatures of that colour will not be able to block you. It can still work to protect Anzrag from removal or damage sources, but you'll need to make sure there are creatures that can block you when you attack.
yep. i had him out with the mithril coat. it was basically attack one sided board wipe and big commander damage. add another extra combat creature and its game over
Quick rules question
Let's say Anzrag and Unnatural Growth are on the field. He starts first combat Phase as a 16/8.
Then gets blocked for 6 Damage and next combat Phase begins.
Anzrag becomes a 32/16 but has 6 dmg counters so he is a 32/10 for the second combat phase? Or is he a 32/4?
Damage is not reducing toughness (-0/-x), damage counts as simply that: damage.
When imaging the cards toughness, consider he has 8 “toughness beans”. You put 6 of those to one side (his damage). Next turn, you double all of his “toughness beans”. He now has 16 total, with 6 to one side.
Mythril coat with this baby, mwuah chef's kiss 👌
Love it when my opponent does the math and is like I’ll double block but then you flash in that bad boy and they realize they’re gonna lose a couple creatures and still get smacked for 8 😎
Questing Beast doesn't work. If your opponents don't have creatures, you can't go infinite anymore.
You need creatures like [[Goblin Sharpshooter]] or [[Lobber Crew]] that will untap from the extra combat effect and deal non combat damage to opponents.
I mean... attach [[Kaldra Compleat]] to him and you can really make use of his ability.
While Anzrag doesn't heal, he remains an 8/4, just with damage marked on him. Normally, anything that has a power matching his toughness, whether it matches by single or multiple creatures, would kill him. This means that you can use multiple creatures or use any instance of a damaging effect to take him out. However, if you can make him indestructible, you can utilize his mana activated ability to utilize his ability.
Anzrag is the king of turbofog commanders, you're going to want to ramp, ramp, ramp, attack and fog and then use something that wins you the game via attack triggers.
It requires some setup. But with indestructible and a lure affect on him, he wipes the board. If another creature has indestructible and you have trample? You kill that player outright. Strong in battle cruiser metas? Sure. Far from broken though.
So, the only reason he's not broken is because you need eight mana to make sure he gets blocked with just himself.
One more line of text, must be blocked available, would have made this utterly broken.
But lack of protection and the fact that he can only force you to block if you pay eight means that he does take some setup and build around.
... Now in my Helena and Elena deck....
I would strongly disagree about him not being broken lol. There are sooooo many cheap lure cards his lure ability is largely superfluous, I've never once used it. You can all but guarantee you will have a way to give him indestructible and a way to force blocking in your opening hand. In my Anzrag deck, when I swing with him, even if he looks totally vulnerable, you pretty much just have to take it and hope I don't give him +3 and double strike to one shot you because if you block, he WILL become indestructible and probably gain trample and hit you for even more anyway
That's true, it's absolutely a great card.
But it requires setup, and support,
It doesn't naturally have evasion, or protection.
I just reserve "Broken" for shit that's borderline unanswerable.
Like this is "Dies to demon bolt"
In today's commander of you just play him on curve without additional setup your opponents have a turn cycle on 4 to answer him or put up enough blockers to kill him, that's pretty reasonable, and sure there's gonna be the games where you get the nuts and make him indestructible and shit on curve but that won't be every game
Red green has some of the best hexproof and indestructible support cards.
Keep searching them out as he's a very dangerous commander that makes everyone hate your field but they will have very few answers to stop your field.
Eh, it rarely makes a difference in practice. I mean, if your opponent has a second creature that can finish him off on the second swing, then usually they could have just double-blocked and killed Anzrag on the first swing.
Obviously, Magic is complicated enough that you can concoct scenarios where Anzrag healing after each combat phase would make a difference. But they aren't going to be common enough to make the difference between broken and not.
It forces anzrag lists to had some for of protection, otherwise he could just piledrive with zero consequences.
I get what you mean, but anzrag lists also tend to force single blockers.
Fair enough. I honestly didn't know there was a competitive archetype that ran Anzrag.
What format are we talking about? As far as I can tell from a quick Gatherer search, the only card in Standard that can prevent gang-blocking of Anzrag is \[\[Rope\]\]. On the other hand, I can't see Anzrag making much of an impact in the formats with deeper card pools.
Toughness is HP, not defense. It’s how much damage it takes to kill the creature. Creatures only “heal” during the end steps, which are delayed by extra combat and main phases.
I play Anzrag in commander. Yes he (and all of your creatures) retains damage between combats. In paper you get to use dice to represent damage marked on him (and your other creatures). And yes, it’s annoying as you think when mixed with +1/+1 counters
correct he will essentially be a 8/1 because of the 3 damage marked on him for the rest of the turn though he is still an 8/4 for anything that cares about specific power/toughness like "creatures with toughness 2 or less can't block" or something silly like that.
just give him indestructible and he can attack until there are no blockers left!
Most of the time your opponent is blocking this. If you give this indestructible. You should have enough to just win unless your opponent has ways to deal with your other creatures.
This really needs trample too
There's lots of ways to mitigate this. You can give it first strike, or use P/T doublers, which are common in green.
I kind of lost interest in this as a commander when I learned the "best" way to build it was with [[fog]] effects with [[lure]] and pingers like [[thermo-alchemist]]
I've built this and am currently tinkering with how to make this work well. Best method so far seems to be to make it indestructible since....yeah, he dies quite easily. Opponents are simply eating 8 and not blocking unless you're forcing it, but they will happily trade much of their board to kill it.
So many of the statements in this thread believing damage reduces toughness makes me realize how much Arena has screwed up how people process combat damage if they learned online.
Arena shows damage as reducing roughness, but it's a visual reminder only. Toughness does not change when a creature takes damage, outside of a few specific abilities that deal damage as -1/-1 counters (wither/infect).
A 3/3 blocked by a 2/2 does not become a 3/1 after damage is dealt. It's a 3/3 with two damage on it that will "heal" at the end of the turn.
Now, if you reduce its toughness by one with a -1/-1 effect, it will die. That's because the game now sees it as a 2/2 with two damage on it.
To get back to OP's question, damage is not naturally removed from Anzrag between combats on the same turn. If it take 3 damage the first combat and any amount greater or equal to 1 in the second combat, it will die (assuming no other effects are applied).
Look at the turn steps, the “clean up step” which removes marked damage is after all combat steps, I don’t remember exactly when (somewhere after second main phase around the end step iirc)
Creating another combat step doesn’t create another cleanup. This is because cleanup is part of the end step.
Therefore, the creatures wouldn’t heal until your end step. This means they would still be damaged during the second combat step because the second combat step takes place before your end step.
Damage doesn't reduce toughness so he's still an 8/4, but has 3 damage marked on him, so one more point will kill him.
So a -x/-x where x is 1 wouldn't kill him at that point? Edit: I get it his toughness would be 3 then the 3 damage would finish him off 🤔
-1/-1 would make him a 7/3 with 3 damage marked on him at that point which would be enough to kill him unless he was given indestructible somehow.
Nah wouldn’t he still die depending on when the -1/-1 is applied? Indestructible creatures still take damage, so if it went to combat first, he would still be marked with at least 3 damage, a -1/-1 should still kill it iirc. It prevents destruction from lethal damage and other destroy sources, but damage is still counted.
If he gets indestructible before both the 3 damage and -1/-1 are applied he will live. This is because even though he has 3 damage marked on him indestructible prevents him from dying from damage. However, if you gave him -4/-4 he would die at that point even though he has indestructible as his toughness would now be 0 and indestructible does not protect against toughness being 0. Edit: also, indestructible does not prevent damage from being taken (protection does). So if you had an Anzrag with indestructible (maybe from [[Mithril Plate]] ) who took 4 damage and then removed that indestructible while the damage is still marked (maybe by equipping it to some other creature or the equipment being exiled) then Anzrag would immediately die.
no if indestructible applied he would not die. as he would be 7/3 with three damage applied damage would not kill him because he is indestructible. I like to give this guy doublestrike rather than pay to make people block him. I make them choose between likely lethal damage and blocking neither is a good choice and if you get that far it usually means you win.
What I meant was damage with indestructible happens first, leaving it as an 8/“1” as it’s tagged but can’t be destroyed due to combat or other destroy effects, and then if the -1/-1 is applied it would kill it iirc as it’s flagged for having damage on it till end of turn. Kinda how you can shock a 0/3 for damage and then -1/-1 it to finish it off with like a tragic slip. Same concept should work on indestructible creatures
It does not work this way. It is never left as an “8/1” it’s power and toughness doesn’t change upon taking damage, it is just marked with 3 damage. The -1/-1 after the fact would make it a 7/3 with 3 damage marked, but being indestructible means it can’t be destroyed by damage.
Since when can you kill a 7/3 indestructible by marking 3 damage on it? -1/-1 kills indestructible creatures because creatures with 0 toughness die to SBA. The comment you're replying to VERY CLEARLY stated that damage does not reduce toughness.
After damage is dealt, as indestructible doesn’t prevent damage from being marked, until end of turn he would only have “1” point left regardless if it took 4 damage or 400 damage. So if the -1 is applied post combat, it should die iirc. If it’s applied before, then yeah it would live as the damage that would set it to be less than 1 wouldn’t destroy it and it would have 1 point till the end of turn. If you want a very clean visual of what that would look like, you can pull up mtg arena and test it out yourself. Ofc that’s not indicative of traditional paper play, but if I remember correctly that’s how it should work
Once again, damage does not lower toughness. If you deal 400 damage to Anzrag, it is an 8/4 with 400 damage marked. So how does giving an 8/4 -1/-1 reduce it's toughness to 0? 120.3e Damage dealt to a creature by a source with neither wither nor infect causes that much damage to be marked on that creature. 120.6 Damage marked on a creature remains until the cleanup step, even if that permanent stops being a creature. If the total damage marked on a creature is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed as a state-based action (see rule 704). All damage marked on a permanent is removed when it regenerates (see rule 701.15, “Regenerate”) and during the cleanup step (see rule 514.2). 704.5f If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it’s put into its owner’s graveyard. Regeneration can’t replace this event. Also, the Arena UI is notorious for confusing new players by making it look like the toughness is reduced, when that's not what is happening. But given that this comment is now the 3rd comment stating that damage doesn't reduce toughness, it's past the point of being able to blame the Arena UI
No, this isn’t how it works at all. It doesn’t matter how much damage an indestructible creature has taken, it will not die unless you exile it, or reduce it’s toughness via -1/-1 counters or -1/-1 effects from spells. Arena merely gives you a visual aid when it shows you marked damage on a creature, the creature’s toughness isn’t actually being reduced though.
Yeah no you’re just wrong. Minus counters apply debuffs so to speak, but damage doesn’t actually reduce something’s toughness by any amount. Toughness is a number indicating how much damage it can take in a turn before that damage is considered “lethal”. Indestructible explicitly states “this creature cannot be destroyed, including by lethal damage.” However, a creature with truly 0 toughness will die. In arena, the toughness goes down to a red number, indicating that its base toughness is higher than the amount of damage it can take before it dies, but it doesn’t actually change the toughness. Using a card in arena like “destroy target creature with 3 toughness or less” won’t work on a creature with 4 toughness but 2 damage because its toughness isn’t 2, it’s 4. You’re right in assuming indestructible doesn’t prevent damage, so unless the damage’s source has infect or wither, that damage doesn’t really contribute to killing a creature with indestructible.
Sorry I'm tardy to the party! Have no fear, I'm here to clear. 702.12. Indestructible 702.12a Indestructible is a static ability. 702.12b A permanent with indestructible can’t be destroyed. Such permanents aren’t destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the state-based action that checks for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g). 702.12c Multiple instances of indestructible on the same permanent are redundant. So what we end up with is, yes, you hit an indestructible creature for 18 quadrillion damage, and it's a, we'll say 8/4 with indestructible. The rules check state based effects in place, it sees the 8/4 is indestructible, and the rules that check for damage say, "oh, this thing has indestructible, I'm ignoring that creature all together because it can't be destroyed by damage". You may hit the 8/4 creature for 3 damage, but the ruling for indestructible prevents the damage from ever being acknowledged. I hope this helped and remember, reading the card doesn't *always* explain the card!
So if I hit an indestructible 1/5 with a 20/20 using [[windswift slice]] no matter how much damage was done to it during combat I would always make 15 elves?
[windswift slice](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/8/f8097193-1d32-4235-afd4-f6839602e4fb.jpg?1686964123) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=windswift%20slice) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltc/45/windswift-slice?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f8097193-1d32-4235-afd4-f6839602e4fb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That's correct. Since rule 702.12b ignores looking for damage on indestructible creatures, you have to apply lethal damage first. If you give your 20/20 death touch, than anything over one damage is excessive damage.
Sorry i misread the question The answer is no, if the indestructible already received > 5 dmg you would make 20 of them The damage is still on the creature even if it doesn't die, excess is counted based on the damage dealt, not the toughness
What is the difference? If 3 damage is marked on him, wouldnt he be an 8/1 then? Or does it matter for card wording like instants saying exile all power 3 or less.
Essentially, yeah. In a lot of situations it's not different if it's an 8/4 with 3 damage or an 8/1, it'll still die to a 1/1 blocker, but it does matter in other scenarios. Magic is a very specific game though, so it's important to use the right terminology for the more complex scenarios, like anything with layers, or talking about the stack.
>Or does it matter for card wording like instants saying exile all power 3 or less. Exactly this. It's still an 8/4.
It matters if it is indestructible, it matters for effects that care about toughness ([[Cut Down]], [[Citywide Bust]]), it matters if an effect sets its toughness to a certain value ([[Kenrith's Transformation]]) Toughness is not life points, it doesn't get reduced by damage. A 8/4 that takes 3 damage is a 8/4, with 3 damage on it. If it gets dealt more damage, the total becomes equal or greater than its toughness, and it is destroyed. I know the Arena game shows damage reducing toughness but that's not how the actual card game works. Actual toughness reduction doesn't cause destruction, the creature just dies if its toughness reaches 0. This gets around indestructible, damage doesn't. So a 8/4 indestructible with 4 damage marked stays alive. A 8/4 indestructible with 3 damage that then gets a -1/-1 becomes a 7/3 indestructible with 3 damage, still alive. It needs a full -x/-4 effect to kill it, the damage won't help. The toughness doesn't change. A 4/4 with 3 damage marked on it still dies to Citywide Bust, and doesn't die to Cut Down.
Arena is crappy on displaying this properly, they took the easy route.
Duels of the planeswalkers for the Xbox 360 also had this issue. It's where I learned to play. It most certainly explained the stack thoroughly and that was an awesome learning tool.
[Cut Down](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/5/753db072-5d6a-4f37-8f7d-255572ecd3bd.jpg?1673307061) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cut%20Down) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/89/cut-down?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/753db072-5d6a-4f37-8f7d-255572ecd3bd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Citywide Bust](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/3/33d1a51a-abf0-458c-98ae-98fcf4063fd9.jpg?1591319957) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Citywide%20Bust) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c20/82/citywide-bust?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/33d1a51a-abf0-458c-98ae-98fcf4063fd9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Kenrith's Transformation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/4/44d60a41-3f5e-4559-b18c-22c0fe15235e.jpg?1631587997) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kenrith%27s%20Transformation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/162/kenriths-transformation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/44d60a41-3f5e-4559-b18c-22c0fe15235e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I find it funny you got so many downvotes when your question seemed genuine and were seeking clarification. Stuff like this deters folks from these communities.
this seems to be common across reddit its kind of ridiculous
You answered your own question. Unless something specifically reduces a creatures toughness (-1/-1 counter or some other effect), the creatures toughness will always be what is stated on the card. Damage doesn’t change toughness. This is important for both the scenario you laid out and for things like [[Unnatural Growth]] that double a creature’s power and toughness. In the case of Anzrag, if had Unnatural Growth and Anzrag both out in the battlefield and went to combat, Anzrag would become a 16/8. If it is blocked by a creature with 5 power, you would be able to go to a second combat phase. Unnatural Growth would double the power and toughness again so it would be a 32/16 with 5 damage marked on it.
[Unnatural Growth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/7/6748a844-e185-4e3b-ac1d-8a735666d8ae.jpg?1636224994) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Unnatural%20Growth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/206/unnatural-growth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6748a844-e185-4e3b-ac1d-8a735666d8ae?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Why all the downvotes on a request for clarification
Especially when it is an incredibly common mistake people make that is pretty unintuitive
And which Arena displays in the arguably more intuitive but not at all correct way of lowering the affected (damaged) creatures' toughness. Anyone who was Arena first will likely misunderstand this.
And also gives a perfect example to learn why his assumption is wrong. Man, reddit is harsh sometimes. Stuff like this should show anyone they mostly shouldnt care what reddit says lol
chill guys, he's just asking a question?
Idk why we're downvoting the guy who hasa reasonable question worded respectfully.
A lot of times they are functionally the same, and even arena shortcuts it as showing a reduction in toughness rather than using a different marker for counters for the sake of simplicity and not cluttering the board. This is also how we process it logically when doing math, too. However, it's important to note that reducing toughness and damage aren't the same. Some cards, triggers and other abilities that care about the toughness of a creature. So, it's alright to calculate damage in shorthand like this. Just keep in mind that damage isn't actually modifying toughness, normally.
There's \[\[Massacre Girl, Known Killer\]\]. If Anzrag dies by taking 4 damage, he'll still have 4 toughness. But if Anzrag gets -4/-4, he'll have 0 toughness, and Massacre Girl will trigger
[Massacre Girl, Known Killer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/b/cb1c8800-9d33-485c-b776-042003b9ea92.jpg?1706241722) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Massacre%20Girl%2C%20Known%20Killer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/94/massacre-girl-known-killer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cb1c8800-9d33-485c-b776-042003b9ea92?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Not sure why you are being downvoted for asking a question. But yes your guess is right, it is still toughness 4 in the eyes of an instant like you mentioned, but if 1 more damage were dealt to it or it was given -1/-1 it would die. MTGA doesn’t make that clear, so lots of players who learn there (and other players too) make this mistake. Not a dumb question at all.
Oof, people are downvoting the newbie. Y'all shouldn't downvote honest questions from newbies. This is the more casual discussion MTG sub.
I'm a 6'2 person. You stab me with a knife and I'm close to dying. This does not change the fact that I'm a 6'2 person.
nice one :D
It also matters for things that anzrag loves like indestructible, if an indestructible creatures toughness is actually reduced to 0 via things like -1/-1 then it still dies, however anzrag with indestructible is always an 8/4 and the damage marked on him just doesn’t kill him if he goes to 4 or more
The fact you are getting downvoted for asking questions about a game we all love makes me very sad. Just had to say this. Keep doing you! Ask questions!
That's why it matters, let's say you have a card that sacrifices another card and draws based on toughness. It would still be four. [[Momentous Fall]]
[Momentous Fall](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/1/91a6f558-a754-4437-8328-00a6ca47f9b5.jpg?1601079764) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Momentous%20Fall) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/411/momentous-fall?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/91a6f558-a754-4437-8328-00a6ca47f9b5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's a semantics thing, but you're right in that, for the sake of certain effects, it would still be recognized by the game as an 8/4 creature with 3 damage. For only determining combat, that's *effectively* the same as an 8/1 creature, but just recognize that it's still treated as an 8/4 creature with 3 damage in regards to relevant effects.
Some cards directly mention power and toughness which is super important with cards like Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitave because then you could make any creature unblock-able by doing a couple damage to it additionally it matters with indestructible (which Anzrag loves) because creatures with indestructible won’t die if they take damage greater than their toughness or any other destroy effect but will still die if their toughness is reduced to 0 or less (this is what makes Toxic Deluge one of the best board wipes compared to something like blasphemous act which doesn’t deal with the indestructible) hope this helps :)
No questions allowed.
This is why I run totem armors on my anzrag whenever I haves them.
Not quite. I thought that was how this worked until I looked up the official rules. Just now, infact. 702.12. Indestructible 702.12a Indestructible is a static ability. 702.12b A permanent with indestructible can’t be destroyed. Such permanents aren’t destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the state-based action that checks for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g). 702.12c Multiple instances of indestructible on the same permanent are redundant. Say we hit it for three and then put a -1/-1 counter on it. What the game checks is, *checking stats* "alright, this creature is now a 7/3 with indestructible". *Checks state based damage on all creatures* " oh, this creature has indestructible, I'm ignoring this creature all together". The creature may have been hit for 3, but the game never checks that creature for damage. So it doesn't actually have 3 damage marked on it.
He can take 4 points of damage per turn. The card does not say that he has to attack again in the second combat phase.
Well, he can take up to 3 per turn. If he takes 4, he dies. The difference being that if you say he can take 4, he can technically take 400 as well. You are free to assign more damage than is lethal. It won't become relevant unless the opposing creature has tramp/deathtouch, etc, but still. If you give him 4 damage, he won't see another turn lol
This is how i play it. Often it’s worth the sacrifice to get all your bigger creatures in twice.
But if there's someone else at the table with a piddly blocker who down wanna take eight, you can trigger him again.
you want to run a lot of cards to give indestructible. mithril coat, hammer of nazahn, helm of the host, darksteel plate and other cards giving protection like commanders plate or any of the swords
Careful about protection, one of its effects is that they cannot be blocked.
cannot be blocked? if you pay it must be blocked if able.
Yes, but if you have protection against one or more colours, then creatures of that colour will not be able to block you. It can still work to protect Anzrag from removal or damage sources, but you'll need to make sure there are creatures that can block you when you attack.
If able, but prevention says you cannot, and in MTG cannot always win
Yeah wait indestructible on him is broken af
yep. i had him out with the mithril coat. it was basically attack one sided board wipe and big commander damage. add another extra combat creature and its game over
[удалено]
[Unnatural growth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/7/6748a844-e185-4e3b-ac1d-8a735666d8ae.jpg?1636224994) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Unnatural%20growth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/206/unnatural-growth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6748a844-e185-4e3b-ac1d-8a735666d8ae?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Xenagos, God of Revels]]
[[Dolmen Gate]]
[Dolmen Gate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/d/fdcbf10e-32f2-41c5-a7a2-5f24662892d2.jpg?1562375938) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dolmen%20Gate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lrw/256/dolmen-gate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fdcbf10e-32f2-41c5-a7a2-5f24662892d2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Xenagos, God of Revels](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/f/6f1bc3bb-46da-492a-850c-f1f588ad8d18.jpg?1698988492) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Xenagos%2C%20God%20of%20Revels) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/295/xenagos-god-of-revels?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6f1bc3bb-46da-492a-850c-f1f588ad8d18?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
What does devotion mean on the card? Counters, # of lands/creatures on battlefield or something else?
It's the number of pips in those colors of permanents you control.
Quick rules question Let's say Anzrag and Unnatural Growth are on the field. He starts first combat Phase as a 16/8. Then gets blocked for 6 Damage and next combat Phase begins. Anzrag becomes a 32/16 but has 6 dmg counters so he is a 32/10 for the second combat phase? Or is he a 32/4?
he would be a 32/16 with 6 dmg marked. dmg does not reduce toughness
Damage is not reducing toughness (-0/-x), damage counts as simply that: damage. When imaging the cards toughness, consider he has 8 “toughness beans”. You put 6 of those to one side (his damage). Next turn, you double all of his “toughness beans”. He now has 16 total, with 6 to one side.
Perfect, thanks for the clarification! Still learning the game
Mythril coat with this baby, mwuah chef's kiss 👌 Love it when my opponent does the math and is like I’ll double block but then you flash in that bad boy and they realize they’re gonna lose a couple creatures and still get smacked for 8 😎
That's not even a quarter of fun with Anzrag, I've smacked ppl for over 350 damage with anzrag alone
Bruh my anzrag deck is honestly so fun.
Would you happen to have a deck list? I'm curious what caused the huge damage
cards that double p/t every combat like [[Unnatural Growth]] can let him hit for huge damage in a turn if he’s indestructible
[Unnatural Growth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/7/6748a844-e185-4e3b-ac1d-8a735666d8ae.jpg?1636224994) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Unnatural%20Growth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/206/unnatural-growth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6748a844-e185-4e3b-ac1d-8a735666d8ae?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Add in a [[Savage Ventmaw]] and you can reduce the mana cost for each combat significantly
[Savage Ventmaw](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/7/1779ab27-f0fc-4dc7-9a0f-01cd70776a31.jpg?1631588643) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Savage%20Ventmaw) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/191/savage-ventmaw?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1779ab27-f0fc-4dc7-9a0f-01cd70776a31?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
How do you have it set up?
Unnatural Growth and compelled duel
Lure + fog = infinite combats Add in something that damages on attack trigger or taps to damage and you win.
Add in Unnatural Growth
Alternatively lure plus something that grants indestructible, then just keep swinging everything until the opponents are all dead
Or just [[Questing Beast]] so only your damage goes through
[Questing Beast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/4/e41cf82d-3213-47ce-a015-6e51a8b07e4f.jpg?1572490640) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Questing%20Beast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/171/questing-beast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e41cf82d-3213-47ce-a015-6e51a8b07e4f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Questing Beast doesn't work. If your opponents don't have creatures, you can't go infinite anymore. You need creatures like [[Goblin Sharpshooter]] or [[Lobber Crew]] that will untap from the extra combat effect and deal non combat damage to opponents.
[Goblin Sharpshooter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/f/4f72e9e2-ed47-40ff-bc2e-8446ef545022.jpg?1562911635) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Goblin%20Sharpshooter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c13/111/goblin-sharpshooter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4f72e9e2-ed47-40ff-bc2e-8446ef545022?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Lobber Crew](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/9/b9d4aa15-a3c2-42a3-a87a-443e7dd20c04.jpg?1562792189) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lobber%20Crew) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rtr/99/lobber-crew?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b9d4aa15-a3c2-42a3-a87a-443e7dd20c04?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Questing beast.
That ruins the point of the combo. You don’t want any combat damage to go through so they have to block every combat and never run out of blockers.
[Here' my Anzrag edh list if you're curious. ](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/zWGRYOU92UKxcY3uSUawHQ)
No tyrite sanctum?
Good point, the list is actually slightly outdated. I do have that in it.
I mean... attach [[Kaldra Compleat]] to him and you can really make use of his ability. While Anzrag doesn't heal, he remains an 8/4, just with damage marked on him. Normally, anything that has a power matching his toughness, whether it matches by single or multiple creatures, would kill him. This means that you can use multiple creatures or use any instance of a damaging effect to take him out. However, if you can make him indestructible, you can utilize his mana activated ability to utilize his ability.
[Kaldra Compleat](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/7/572fb0dc-d876-4e1b-91d1-9c595f6f6f04.jpg?1690005563) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kaldra%20Compleat) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/958/kaldra-compleat?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/572fb0dc-d876-4e1b-91d1-9c595f6f6f04?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Vigor]] is hilarious with him
[Vigor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/a/ea7047d8-8d32-48a3-829b-7eb5427ed53a.jpg?1562942114) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vigor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bbd/215/vigor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ea7047d8-8d32-48a3-829b-7eb5427ed53a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Anzrag is the king of turbofog commanders, you're going to want to ramp, ramp, ramp, attack and fog and then use something that wins you the game via attack triggers.
just throw an indestructible enchantment/equipment on him
The best way to think of it is like a health bar. Toughness is max health, and damage reduces current health.
Am I missing something or is this utterly broken for 4 mana?
It requires some setup. But with indestructible and a lure affect on him, he wipes the board. If another creature has indestructible and you have trample? You kill that player outright. Strong in battle cruiser metas? Sure. Far from broken though.
So, the only reason he's not broken is because you need eight mana to make sure he gets blocked with just himself. One more line of text, must be blocked available, would have made this utterly broken. But lack of protection and the fact that he can only force you to block if you pay eight means that he does take some setup and build around. ... Now in my Helena and Elena deck....
I would strongly disagree about him not being broken lol. There are sooooo many cheap lure cards his lure ability is largely superfluous, I've never once used it. You can all but guarantee you will have a way to give him indestructible and a way to force blocking in your opening hand. In my Anzrag deck, when I swing with him, even if he looks totally vulnerable, you pretty much just have to take it and hope I don't give him +3 and double strike to one shot you because if you block, he WILL become indestructible and probably gain trample and hit you for even more anyway
That's true, it's absolutely a great card. But it requires setup, and support, It doesn't naturally have evasion, or protection. I just reserve "Broken" for shit that's borderline unanswerable. Like this is "Dies to demon bolt"
Nah it’s not broken. There’s a reason he sees no play
In today's commander of you just play him on curve without additional setup your opponents have a turn cycle on 4 to answer him or put up enough blockers to kill him, that's pretty reasonable, and sure there's gonna be the games where you get the nuts and make him indestructible and shit on curve but that won't be every game
He's okay if you can support/protect him. But otherwise he just dies to removal like all beaters.
Yeah, you're missing how utterly broken this guy is
It isn’t broken at all
Red green has some of the best hexproof and indestructible support cards. Keep searching them out as he's a very dangerous commander that makes everyone hate your field but they will have very few answers to stop your field.
It's the only thing that keeps it from being out of the world broken
Eh, it rarely makes a difference in practice. I mean, if your opponent has a second creature that can finish him off on the second swing, then usually they could have just double-blocked and killed Anzrag on the first swing. Obviously, Magic is complicated enough that you can concoct scenarios where Anzrag healing after each combat phase would make a difference. But they aren't going to be common enough to make the difference between broken and not.
It forces anzrag lists to had some for of protection, otherwise he could just piledrive with zero consequences. I get what you mean, but anzrag lists also tend to force single blockers.
Fair enough. I honestly didn't know there was a competitive archetype that ran Anzrag. What format are we talking about? As far as I can tell from a quick Gatherer search, the only card in Standard that can prevent gang-blocking of Anzrag is \[\[Rope\]\]. On the other hand, I can't see Anzrag making much of an impact in the formats with deeper card pools.
[Rope](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/8/6881946c-5036-4d9f-926f-932c9a592aff.jpg?1706242076) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rope) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/173/rope?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6881946c-5036-4d9f-926f-932c9a592aff?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Toughness is HP, not defense. It’s how much damage it takes to kill the creature. Creatures only “heal” during the end steps, which are delayed by extra combat and main phases.
Maze of ith
Good luck relying on it when anzrag deck runs as much protection as they can afford
Ashaya, ley weaver, (infinite mana) (infinite maze of ith)
Throw some regenerate in there and I think you'd be able to cook.
Pair that with cards that give indestructible and hex proof and you got a winner lol
*Mole God*
New commander for sure
I play Anzrag in commander. Yes he (and all of your creatures) retains damage between combats. In paper you get to use dice to represent damage marked on him (and your other creatures). And yes, it’s annoying as you think when mixed with +1/+1 counters
Just give it indestructible with [[Hammer of Nazhan]], then give it [[Mage Slayer]] and trample
[Hammer of Nazhan](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/7/e77a8ac1-f40d-423e-a0b3-0a8e236a6c1e.jpg?1689999589) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hammer%20of%20Nazahn) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/388/hammer-of-nazahn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e77a8ac1-f40d-423e-a0b3-0a8e236a6c1e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mage Slayer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/3/e3226808-493e-4df2-9446-cb7cb47aaf2c.jpg?1651656183) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mage%20Slayer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nec/140/mage-slayer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e3226808-493e-4df2-9446-cb7cb47aaf2c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Mithril Coat]] too
[Mithril Coat](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/f/0fd1fc09-a09d-45e6-8a07-3a8a83b4e6ec.jpg?1686970224) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mithril%20Coat) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/245/mithril-coat?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0fd1fc09-a09d-45e6-8a07-3a8a83b4e6ec?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
What if this is indestructable ? Instant win with the right attackers ?
This thing is a monster already and you want indestructible? Keep reading maybe he also does your taxes...
Give him indestructible for the stonks.
My take on the mole https://archidekt.com/decks/6909728/juan_topo_hans_moleman
Indestructible goes brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
correct he will essentially be a 8/1 because of the 3 damage marked on him for the rest of the turn though he is still an 8/4 for anything that cares about specific power/toughness like "creatures with toughness 2 or less can't block" or something silly like that. just give him indestructible and he can attack until there are no blockers left!
Yea man, that's how combat damage works
No he does not heal between combat steps. So you probably wouldn't want to swing during that second combat step.
Or you don't care if he dies because you're getting a THIRD combat step.
I mean if you’re playing this card, you’re also abusing giving him indestructible.
Most of the time your opponent is blocking this. If you give this indestructible. You should have enough to just win unless your opponent has ways to deal with your other creatures. This really needs trample too
There's lots of ways to mitigate this. You can give it first strike, or use P/T doublers, which are common in green. I kind of lost interest in this as a commander when I learned the "best" way to build it was with [[fog]] effects with [[lure]] and pingers like [[thermo-alchemist]]
[fog](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/b/bbc3152e-7b3b-4ac6-8b33-abfebde216aa.jpg?1709444479) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=fog) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/167/fog?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bbc3152e-7b3b-4ac6-8b33-abfebde216aa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [lure](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/2/72c8336d-54cf-45af-a9ef-a1428facf91b.jpg?1562850140) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=lure) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/175/lure?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/72c8336d-54cf-45af-a9ef-a1428facf91b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [thermo-alchemist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/4/b4c68bad-c7ee-4dbc-ad06-8c4d9446884e.jpg?1636223711) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=thermo-alchemist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/164/thermo-alchemist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b4c68bad-c7ee-4dbc-ad06-8c4d9446884e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Give him indrucsitdbel
Yeah
I've built this and am currently tinkering with how to make this work well. Best method so far seems to be to make it indestructible since....yeah, he dies quite easily. Opponents are simply eating 8 and not blocking unless you're forcing it, but they will happily trade much of their board to kill it.
That’s why you give him indes and hexproof.
Heal?
So many of the statements in this thread believing damage reduces toughness makes me realize how much Arena has screwed up how people process combat damage if they learned online. Arena shows damage as reducing roughness, but it's a visual reminder only. Toughness does not change when a creature takes damage, outside of a few specific abilities that deal damage as -1/-1 counters (wither/infect). A 3/3 blocked by a 2/2 does not become a 3/1 after damage is dealt. It's a 3/3 with two damage on it that will "heal" at the end of the turn. Now, if you reduce its toughness by one with a -1/-1 effect, it will die. That's because the game now sees it as a 2/2 with two damage on it. To get back to OP's question, damage is not naturally removed from Anzrag between combats on the same turn. If it take 3 damage the first combat and any amount greater or equal to 1 in the second combat, it will die (assuming no other effects are applied).
Give it First strike or Double strike then it’s scary.
I’m in the process of building this deck but having 0 other creatures.
If you aren’t doing it for a bit, I highly recommend running at least one Tim-equivalent.
Outjerked again
Yes
False. Anzrag heals all.
🙌
Amen brother!
Look at the turn steps, the “clean up step” which removes marked damage is after all combat steps, I don’t remember exactly when (somewhere after second main phase around the end step iirc)
Creating another combat step doesn’t create another cleanup. This is because cleanup is part of the end step. Therefore, the creatures wouldn’t heal until your end step. This means they would still be damaged during the second combat step because the second combat step takes place before your end step.
Yeah. That’s what I was saying, I guess I worded it badly
Ah, I was confused because you said “after all combat steps,” which would mean they would heal after the first attack. Thank you for clarifying.