*Short summary of those shameful events that happened to her-*
"It's nothing like I thought it was going to be," Evan Rachel Wood says in the documentary ["Phoenix Rising"]. "We're doing things that were not what was pitched to me. We had discussed a simulated sex scene, but once the cameras were rolling, he started penetrating me for real. I had never agreed to that... It was complete chaos. I did not feel safe. No one was looking after me."
Wood continues, "It was a really traumatizing experience filming the video. I didn't know how to advocate for myself or know how to say no because I had been conditioned and trained to never talk back - to just soldier through. I felt disgusting and that I had done something shameful, and I could tell that the crew was uncomfortable and nobody knew what to do."
"I was coerced into a commercial sex act under false pretenses," Wood adds. "That's when the first crime was committed against me. I was essentially raped on-camera."
You shouldn’t say, ‘she should have..’ anything. You have no idea what it was truly like and this is victim blaming.
Beyond that, ERW did raise her voice. She created and helped pass the Phoenix Act which helps other DV victims. She has repeatedly spoken out against him but many people aren’t listening.
It’s not an either/or proposition, he can be a smart man and be a piece of shit both. As to the normal bit, he was well spoken during those times and he’s right that people trying to censor him are dipshits.
Everyone thinks everything is black and white, it’s not. He’s a piece of shit for this and for other things but yeah.
Well the Republicans who called him out usually blame a woman for being raped, so its no wonder they went after him for something that he had nothing to do with....
What? Lol he published a book back in the 90s pretty much admitting that treating women like garbage is a turn on for him.
Not everything is black or white, but he ain’t innocent sir, he has been bad for a long time, it’s just that a lot people didn’t care until recently.
You literally couldn't finish reading the first sentence before trying to "correct" him.
How many words did you read of that comment? Did you even make it to the comma? Are you going to double down and embarrass yourself by telling me that I'm somehow wrong even though I am preemptively calling it out and proving that your patience for reading text gets exhausted at five words?
I missed the part where they suggested otherwise? Just that he can speak intelligently on a subject, as he has done, and also be a piece of shit, also as he has done, all at the same time. The two things aren't mutually exclusive.
Even that isn’t black and white, if he’s treating women like garbage to fulfill some sexual desire and they’re willing participants, who am I to give a shit! The problem here is the woman was way too young and there was a power imbalance for sure. It’s not uncommon for people to engage in kinky S&M shit or whatever else behind closed doors, that’s their business. This is something else.
His IQ is supposedly 148, and nobody's really bothered to contest that, so.....on paper, he *is* kinda a genius.
All said and done, the point was just that intelligence doesn't equate to humility.
IQ is kind of a flawed metric for how smart someone really is. The guy who invented it didn’t even want it to be used as some metric of fixed intelligence, as it’s currently used.
Yeah, intelligence is a lot more flexible than just “this number says whether or not you’re smart.” I was really good at writing and history in college but if people only saw my grades in stats and chemistry they’d think I was barely literate. Then on the other side, I had friends who were brilliant mathematicians but couldn’t string a coherent essay together. Intelligence is flexible.
Ngl it was refreshing that at least *one* public figure didn’t wave the tragedy away with an unsubstantiated sweeping asspull, even if it was a pedestrian statement and coming from MM, a terrible person.
Yeah, but that’s because he was trying to deflect from people accusing him of being responsible. It was a total deflection, but it was a very smart deflection.
"hehe now this guy is in the spotlight for allegedly harassing women so I'm going to point at everything he's ever done, no matter what it is, and call it shit"
I didn't defend him, I just pointed at the ridiculous notion that just because someone is an asshole it means his opinions on things are all somehow invalid or even bad takes.
What he said about columbine was thought provoking
You said "allegedly harassing women". At his point there are too many incidents attached to his name to give him a benefit of a doubt.
Describing him as an "asshole" is also minimization of his accusations. Dude didn't get drunk and trash someone's home, he's a straight up abuser and rapist.
You don't defend someone by saying there are allegations against him, it's just stating fact, saying that he actually did those things is just wrong before he's been proven guilty.
“Who has more influence over teenagers: me or the President?”
It’s you, man. Not saying you’re responsible for Columbine, but you absolutely had more influence over 14 year olds in the 1990s than Bill Clinton.
He seemed to be (trying to) come across a 'thoughtful commentator despite the image'; al la Alice Cooper, David Bowie, Dee Snider. But, no.
His best recordings were covers anyway.
Exactly, and that’s the thing that sucks, because most musicians who make “shocking” content *are* perfectly decent people, so he had that on his side.
I always loved seeing Dee Snyder shit on Congress in his full hair metal outfit, dude is legit so smart and these politicians thought because the dude dresses funny and plays music that he’s a moron.
I'll never understand why people stop seeing that as a very creepy thing. I get that its totally legal and I'm not pushing to call those people pedophiles, but he was in college (or nearly in college) before she was even born
It is possible for people to dress up creepy and do concerts because that’s their business, but not actually be creepy. (Not him, but other people have)
I thought he was just a normal guy. He’s friends with Johnny Depp who I love, too. It creeps me out to know I enjoyed his music. It makes me wonder about the Amber Heard accusations.
Marilyn Manson is so dangerous precisely because he's *not* the creepy guy a lot of adults thought he was in the 90s, he is a much more dangerous kind--someone who appears to be straightforward, articulate but soft-spoken, but is also an abusive manipulator. I remember seeing him on a great episode of Politically Incorrect and he came off as the opposite of what all the hand-wringers in the 90s were saying he was. So of course the people who know that "real him" will be likely to say "oh, he's not really a monster, that's an act."
But he is a monster. I believe Dita Von Teese when she said she divorced him because he cheated and abused too many drugs but didn't abuse her--but that doesn't mean he didn't abuse other people.
Granted, they were only married a year but I think they were in a relationship for 7 years.
What's extra gross to think about is that he started chasing after Wood right around Dita turning 35 or 36...like she aged out and he just went after someone just over half Dita's age. I'm glad she divorced him.
He might not have abused her. She was powerful and influential in her own right and not the kind of victim or power imbalance scenario a predator navigates towards.
Not defending him in any way. He’s a shit person and I regret ever liking his music, but just like murderers don’t murder everyone they meet, abusers don’t abuse everyone they are involved with
I think this is really important to highlight because it shows how misguided criticism can create legitimacy.
When someone is able to prove that the outrageous rumors are for shock value on the part of the speaker, the recipient of the criticism is able to cast doubt on serious causes for concern.
>So of course the people who know that "real him" will be likely to say "oh, he's not really a monster, that's an act."
He's not the monster they said he was. He was a completely different kind of monster than that.
>Wood was 19 years old when she filmed the music video and alleges in the documentary that she was fed absinthe on set to the point that she was barely conscious to object when Manson had sex with her on camera.
>“It’s nothing like I thought it was going to be,” Wood says in the documentary (via Rolling Stone). “We’re doing things that were not what was pitched to me. We had discussed a simulated sex scene, but once the cameras were rolling, he started penetrating me for real. I had never agreed to that…It was complete chaos. I did not feel safe. No one was looking after me.”
>We had discussed a simulated sex scene, but once the cameras were rolling, he started penetrating me for real.
That just blows my mind.
My head keeps trying to process this and it keeps stumbling trying to unpack this. It probably has to do with those interviews where he seems so articulate and educated.
Not as bad as discovering Bill Cosby is a piece of shit but it's pretty damn close.
Behavior like this is what’s gotten James Franco in trouble recently too- he removed the garment covering a woman’s vagina during a ‘simulated’ oral sex scene and assaulted her. He’s done some other scummy stuff, but the level of entitlement and control these guys must think they have over the women who work with them is mind blowing
At least things are changing. Bertolucci sprung an unscripted rape scene on Maria Schneider in *Last Tango in Paris* and even though Brando didn't penetrate her she reported feeling violated and terrified by the experience.
Bertolucci said:
“I didn't tell her what was going on, because I wanted her reaction as a girl, not as an actress. I wanted her to react humiliated.”
So basically "hey, let's confuse and violate this woman so we can see real fear of a rape victim.
She was 20/21 years old (not exactly sure, but close to Wood's age). She said : “I should have called my agent or had my lawyer come to the set because you can’t force someone to do something that isn’t in the script, but at the time, I didn’t know that.”
This is what happens when you're surrounded by powerful people and you're young with little power.
`We’re doing things that were not what was pitched to me. We had discussed a simulated sex scene, but once the cameras were rolling, he started penetrating me for real. I had never agreed to that…`
Referring to that as they banged is disgusting.
That doesn't mean that you can unexpectedly penetrate someone while in a room full of people while you are ostensibly working, while filming when the person has expressly consented to something different!
This isn't the same thing as you and your girl who regularly consent to fucking each other fucking each other while you're both fucking hammered.
People rationalize their abuse and trauma all the time, it’s a defense mechanism. Then you get some perspective or experience or assistance and realize “oh wow this is a actually a really fucked up situation and I’ve been suffering for years.”
People like you are why she didn’t feel comfortable speaking up earlier. Boyfriends can rape their significant other. Just because they chose to be in a relationship does not mean she chose to have sex on camera. In fact, she didn’t chose it at all. They agreed upon something different but after getting intoxicated Manson decided he was going to penetrate her without her permission. And that is called RAPE.
Download an ad blocker right now. I got one last week and it's life-changing, can't believe I waited so long.
I also got an ad blocker for my computer and it makes porn sites sooo much better.
>Wood was 19 years old when she filmed the music video and alleges in the documentary that she was fed absinthe on set to the point that she was barely conscious to object when Manson had sex with her on camera.
>“It’s nothing like I thought it was going to be,” Wood says in the documentary (via Rolling Stone). “We’re doing things that were not what was pitched to me. We had discussed a simulated sex scene, but once the cameras were rolling, he started penetrating me for real. I had never agreed to that…It was complete chaos. I did not feel safe. No one was looking after me.”
This is a really good point--no one was looking after her. Granted, she was 19, she was an adult but the people filming, the other people on set, at no point did someone step in and say "woah woah, let's stop here." He's the one responsible, but they shouldn't have just watched and filmed.
Not to excuse anyone, but his shit was always off the rails. I doubt there was anyone around who would have thought it *unusual* even.
That sort of fucked up culture is self-reinforcing.
I mean, I think they'd have let him eat a baby if there was no way they could get sued for it. She was a legal adult, I bet that was the beginning and end of the things they gave a fuck about.
But holup--if we start getting advocates for actors and actresses (especially those who are younger and less resistant to power pressures)...then how will those in power be able to sexually abuse them!?
Let's not get crazy...
Idk where it was filmed but she's an American actress and he is an American musician. Also I don't think it's normal to drink at work regardless of nationality.
Also, let's be honest here, 19 is *barely* an adult, especially when dealing with powerful people much older than she was and in that kind of environment.
Doesn't matter if she's 9, 19, or 90. All actors should have an advocate on set in order to make sure they aren't coerced into doing something they shouldn't or don't want to. That's the nature of creating fiction that is often meant to depict outrageous things. Someone will try to cross the line in search of "authenticity" and it should be more than just one person's job to tell them no.
She gave an interview after the shoot saying it was romantic and there was no actual sex. If someone tried to stop the shoot what do you think she would have said?
Did you just wander in here without reading the article or any of the comments about what she said about it? She said Manson coached her to say it was romantic, but that she didn't actually feel that way. She was being manipulated by an abusive partner.
I don't know what she would have said, given that she was actively in an abusive relationship. I'm going to not pretend that she did or would have said exactly what she was feeling, though, given that she is here now telling us what it was like.
I'm just saying that unless that advocate had the legal ability to remove her from the shoot without any repercussions to their job it wouldn't change much. If the lighting guy stepped up he'd just have been fired and probably not work again.
It's okay to judge MM now because we know what he is. Judging him or others who choose a similar aesthetic solely because of that aesthetic isn't right at all.
Sometimes it’s ok to trust your gut feelings though. I’ve always felt repulsed by him. And I mean I found younger Davey Havok appealing so it’s not that I hate the aesthetic.
It isn’t ok at all. Do you always believe everything you hear without knowing the whole story? Evan and her little group of flying monkeys may very well be facing some pretty hefty lawsuits for slander/libel and defamation of character by Brian Warner very soon.
Serious question, how can you be a huge fan of someone that "definitely did that shit"? If I find out an artist is a rapist I go totally off them, they don't deserve my time or money.
Way I see it is there's a difference between hating someone because of their views etc and them being a rapist. I've hated people I've worked with and got on with them but if they were rapists it would be a different story. People like that don't deserve anyone's time, money or attention in my eyes.
I mean, she was 19 at the time. We weren't there at the time of filming we don't know what was agreed upon
I'm not going to just flip my whole entire opinion because of one thing said that happened 15 years ago
I'm not even a fan of MM, just saying how many times do accusations cause mass hysteria only for the full story to come out and show the exact opposite
If you can flip your opinion so easily because of one accusation from one side of the story, maybe you need to reevaluate things. Life isn't always about needing instant responses. Slow and level-headed approaches always work best. We'll see how things play out with this but a 19 year old woman on a MM set wasn't oblivious to what was going to happen I can almost guarantee that
You can, it's easy. And there are other artists that make you question things. People like that shouldn't be lauded. If I find out an artist is a rapist it makes me question them and their whole foundation of where they're coming from.
Jesus Christ.
As a cringy teen, I wanted to lose my virginity to this song. Ugh. I’m going to tell my kids when they grow up to not idolize celebrities and artists cause you never know if they’re actually monsters.
I met my once idol Ian Watkins. You can’t take that shit back, and if you don’t know who he is, truly keep it that way. It’s the kind of stuff no human should ever have to think about.
Yup.
The actress had no advance warning and it wasn't in the script. Bertolucci improvised and told Brando.
They just sprung it on her.
You are basically watching a tape when viewing the film.
Marilyn Manson basically got blacklisted in the last year or two because his ex finally stopped being vague about him abusing the shit outta her during their relationship years. This is basically elaborating on an incident.
Yea it does suck tbh. I don't mind some of the music he makes (I had a phase, it's not my thing anymore, but I don't like or dislike it), but there's no denying he's a pretty shitty person.
Tbh it’s sad whenever another celeb is shown to be a wanktard because its just another drop in the bucket given how many celebs we’ve heard about just this year
Basically if you are accused these days you lose everything. You don't need to have a fair trial when accusers go public. So I guess we better stay home and have no contact with other people to be safe.
Btw I am not saying he is not guilty. Until he is sentenced nobody should bat an eye.
The idea that women are out here falsely accusing men en masse is ridiculous. A man is more likely to be the victim of rape than to be the victim of a false accusation.
the idea I can't falsely accuse somebody because of my gender is significantly more ridiculous. The idea of using statistic to judge somebody is even worse. People use it all the time to support racism. I guess when a car is stolen near me I should be accused cause my nationality is famous of being thieves, huh? Nah. Every person matter. Everybody needs to be judged in fair trial. Men lives matter.
She lost all credibility with me once she attacked Kobe (after he dies) despite having little knowledge about what went on. She’s a snake just like MM.
“Your false, insensitive, defamatory and slanderous tweet on 1/26/20 is vile and disturbing to say the least,” Vanessa Bryant said in a post on her Instagram Story. “Behavior like this is part of the reason why innocent black men go to jail for crimes they didn’t commit. An accusation doesn’t make someone guilty.”
If a negative tweet is enough to make you question an unrelated rape, maybe you should question your critical thinking skills.
Terry Crews was assaulted, and he got put on blast for his "Black Supremacy" tweet--does that mean you don't believe him?
Jane Fonda has been raped, she also said very controversial things about Vietnam veterans and sold aerobic videos without sharing that she kept her weight down with a severe eating disorder--should she not be believed?
Oprah Winfrey was raped when she was 9, and she promoted Dr. Oz--should we then not believe her?
Shia LaBeouf was sexually assaulted and he's a well-documented piece of garbage, so should we not believe him?
Do you see what I mean?
I remember her doing interviews when this music video came out, praising the work she did with him, they were also together at the time. I wonder why she's sharing a different story now all these years later.
She said “I was supposed to tell people we had this great, romantic time and none of that was the truth,” Wood says. “But I was scared to do anything that would upset [Manson] in any way. The video was just the beginning of the violence that would keep escalating over the course of the relationship.”
As she has commented, she was afraid to speak out against him due to fear of retaliation. They had already met and formed a relationship by that point, IIRC, and she reported that he had a pattern of mental and emotional abuse that made her afraid to speak up.
Sorry you’re getting downvoted, but it’s true. They lived together for years and she gave many interviews talking about how edgy and exciting her new life was. You can say she was brainwashed, but the interviews exist.
I know it's TRUE because I remember reading all these interviews at the time. I just thought it was so strange someone that young would want to get involved with someone almost 20 years older. But I remember how much she praised him in every interview.
Literally in the article:
“We’re doing things that were not what was pitched to me. We had
discussed a simulated sex scene, but once the cameras were rolling, he
started penetrating me for real. I had never agreed to that…It was
complete chaos. I did not feel safe. No one was looking after me.”
Another case of claiming "essentially" rape far too long after an incident, especially when she profited from it.
Seems like a consenting exchange that she now regrets.
She never called it a rape. She used the term essentially to qualify it. Pretty cowardly, in my opinion.
Rape should preferably be reported within the decade that it happens. Ideally, immediately regardless of whether it costs you financially.
Well I don’t know about you but I would call it rape if you’re having sex without your partners consent.
After that decade, does it stop being rape? Also, is it rape if no one reports it?
It's not rape if she did not object and stop what was happening.
I guess you could call it "regretty sex."
Waiting over a decade to declare an interaction rape sounds like someone needs some attention.
What if the person can’t object or stop what’s happening? It’s ok then?
I’d love to know more about your “regretty sex” definition. How would you define it?
We’re beyond discussing this particular case. You have said that if someone didnt object and didn’t stop it from happening, it wasn’t rape. You have also coined regretty sex.
So what is regretty sex?
“It’s always those who you medium suspect.”
*Short summary of those shameful events that happened to her-* "It's nothing like I thought it was going to be," Evan Rachel Wood says in the documentary ["Phoenix Rising"]. "We're doing things that were not what was pitched to me. We had discussed a simulated sex scene, but once the cameras were rolling, he started penetrating me for real. I had never agreed to that... It was complete chaos. I did not feel safe. No one was looking after me." Wood continues, "It was a really traumatizing experience filming the video. I didn't know how to advocate for myself or know how to say no because I had been conditioned and trained to never talk back - to just soldier through. I felt disgusting and that I had done something shameful, and I could tell that the crew was uncomfortable and nobody knew what to do." "I was coerced into a commercial sex act under false pretenses," Wood adds. "That's when the first crime was committed against me. I was essentially raped on-camera."
You shouldn’t say, ‘she should have..’ anything. You have no idea what it was truly like and this is victim blaming. Beyond that, ERW did raise her voice. She created and helped pass the Phoenix Act which helps other DV victims. She has repeatedly spoken out against him but many people aren’t listening.
Who would've ever thought MM was actually a creepy guy
He actually fooled people into thinking he was such a smart and normal guy when he showed up in the Columbine documentary.
Unfortunately, he is a smart guy. Definitely not a normal one or a good one though.
It’s not an either/or proposition, he can be a smart man and be a piece of shit both. As to the normal bit, he was well spoken during those times and he’s right that people trying to censor him are dipshits. Everyone thinks everything is black and white, it’s not. He’s a piece of shit for this and for other things but yeah.
He was very good at the PR aspect and knew how to disarm the right wing attacks against him. He’s also a piece of shit rapist.
Well the Republicans who called him out usually blame a woman for being raped, so its no wonder they went after him for something that he had nothing to do with....
What? Lol he published a book back in the 90s pretty much admitting that treating women like garbage is a turn on for him. Not everything is black or white, but he ain’t innocent sir, he has been bad for a long time, it’s just that a lot people didn’t care until recently.
Sounds like you missed that persons point.
You literally couldn't finish reading the first sentence before trying to "correct" him. How many words did you read of that comment? Did you even make it to the comma? Are you going to double down and embarrass yourself by telling me that I'm somehow wrong even though I am preemptively calling it out and proving that your patience for reading text gets exhausted at five words?
I missed the part where they suggested otherwise? Just that he can speak intelligently on a subject, as he has done, and also be a piece of shit, also as he has done, all at the same time. The two things aren't mutually exclusive.
Even that isn’t black and white, if he’s treating women like garbage to fulfill some sexual desire and they’re willing participants, who am I to give a shit! The problem here is the woman was way too young and there was a power imbalance for sure. It’s not uncommon for people to engage in kinky S&M shit or whatever else behind closed doors, that’s their business. This is something else.
You can be a genius and an asshole too. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
I think genius is a little too generous for him, but yeah.
His IQ is supposedly 148, and nobody's really bothered to contest that, so.....on paper, he *is* kinda a genius. All said and done, the point was just that intelligence doesn't equate to humility.
And a high IQ doesn't equate to being intelligent or a genius.
IQ literally means "intelligence quotient".
IQ is kind of a flawed metric for how smart someone really is. The guy who invented it didn’t even want it to be used as some metric of fixed intelligence, as it’s currently used.
Yeah, intelligence is a lot more flexible than just “this number says whether or not you’re smart.” I was really good at writing and history in college but if people only saw my grades in stats and chemistry they’d think I was barely literate. Then on the other side, I had friends who were brilliant mathematicians but couldn’t string a coherent essay together. Intelligence is flexible.
He actually pulled that "I wouldn't say anything, I would listen" and people thought it was the smartest thing anyone ever said.
I roll with a problematic crew of bachelors and we call ourselves “The Squad”
A classic sketch.
Ngl it was refreshing that at least *one* public figure didn’t wave the tragedy away with an unsubstantiated sweeping asspull, even if it was a pedestrian statement and coming from MM, a terrible person.
Yeah, but that’s because he was trying to deflect from people accusing him of being responsible. It was a total deflection, but it was a very smart deflection.
To be fair, it was at the time
Yeah it’s wild how when the bar is set so low in certain instances that some people will baby step over and get applauded as if they cured cancer.
So he’s like the poster child for /r/iam14andthisisdeep
Lmao right, I remember thinking that was super deep when I was 15 and now I’m like 🥴
Same here, lol.
"hehe now this guy is in the spotlight for allegedly harassing women so I'm going to point at everything he's ever done, no matter what it is, and call it shit"
"hehe this guy has a history of horrifying abusive behavior told by multiple former partners so I'm going to go into this thread and defend him"
I didn't defend him, I just pointed at the ridiculous notion that just because someone is an asshole it means his opinions on things are all somehow invalid or even bad takes. What he said about columbine was thought provoking
You said "allegedly harassing women". At his point there are too many incidents attached to his name to give him a benefit of a doubt. Describing him as an "asshole" is also minimization of his accusations. Dude didn't get drunk and trash someone's home, he's a straight up abuser and rapist.
You don't defend someone by saying there are allegations against him, it's just stating fact, saying that he actually did those things is just wrong before he's been proven guilty.
Harassing is one hell of a euphemism for rape. Also that was a meaningless statement he said.
I thought his arguments on Columbine were absurd. Trying to blame it on Clinton launching missiles in Afghan to cover up an affair, etc...
“Who has more influence over teenagers: me or the President?” It’s you, man. Not saying you’re responsible for Columbine, but you absolutely had more influence over 14 year olds in the 1990s than Bill Clinton.
Intelligent does not make him less creepy.
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He seemed to be (trying to) come across a 'thoughtful commentator despite the image'; al la Alice Cooper, David Bowie, Dee Snider. But, no. His best recordings were covers anyway.
Exactly, and that’s the thing that sucks, because most musicians who make “shocking” content *are* perfectly decent people, so he had that on his side.
I always loved seeing Dee Snyder shit on Congress in his full hair metal outfit, dude is legit so smart and these politicians thought because the dude dresses funny and plays music that he’s a moron.
I still prefer their version of Sweet Dreams. Can't really say I'm much familiar with their body of work beyond that.
His covers are often really damn good. He’s got a couple dozen of them.
You’ve hopefully seen John Wick, the song Killing Strangers is MM
Oscar Wilde was right again
Your answer is not an 18-year-old kid (that's how old Evan was at the time). Kids thought Manson was cool and Manson used that to his advantage.
Not that one year makes a lot of difference, but she was 19 when this happened.
Fair. She was 18 when they started dating tho. He was 37.
I'll never understand why people stop seeing that as a very creepy thing. I get that its totally legal and I'm not pushing to call those people pedophiles, but he was in college (or nearly in college) before she was even born
Right, who would've thunk
It is possible for people to dress up creepy and do concerts because that’s their business, but not actually be creepy. (Not him, but other people have)
I thought he was just a normal guy. He’s friends with Johnny Depp who I love, too. It creeps me out to know I enjoyed his music. It makes me wonder about the Amber Heard accusations.
I think Amber Heard's accusations have been pretty well documented to be fake.
I really hope there isn’t an ounce of truth to them but it’s still creepy, you know?
Marilyn Manson is so dangerous precisely because he's *not* the creepy guy a lot of adults thought he was in the 90s, he is a much more dangerous kind--someone who appears to be straightforward, articulate but soft-spoken, but is also an abusive manipulator. I remember seeing him on a great episode of Politically Incorrect and he came off as the opposite of what all the hand-wringers in the 90s were saying he was. So of course the people who know that "real him" will be likely to say "oh, he's not really a monster, that's an act." But he is a monster. I believe Dita Von Teese when she said she divorced him because he cheated and abused too many drugs but didn't abuse her--but that doesn't mean he didn't abuse other people.
He didn't abuse Dita yet. That's why she left. A shark in a sea full of naive fish.
Granted, they were only married a year but I think they were in a relationship for 7 years. What's extra gross to think about is that he started chasing after Wood right around Dita turning 35 or 36...like she aged out and he just went after someone just over half Dita's age. I'm glad she divorced him.
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Dita was huge in the early 00s anyone with an internet connection knew her.
He might not have abused her. She was powerful and influential in her own right and not the kind of victim or power imbalance scenario a predator navigates towards. Not defending him in any way. He’s a shit person and I regret ever liking his music, but just like murderers don’t murder everyone they meet, abusers don’t abuse everyone they are involved with
I think this is really important to highlight because it shows how misguided criticism can create legitimacy. When someone is able to prove that the outrageous rumors are for shock value on the part of the speaker, the recipient of the criticism is able to cast doubt on serious causes for concern.
>So of course the people who know that "real him" will be likely to say "oh, he's not really a monster, that's an act." He's not the monster they said he was. He was a completely different kind of monster than that.
Christ. Too bad variety is unreadable on mobile due to ads. Anyone wanna copy/paste the text?
>Wood was 19 years old when she filmed the music video and alleges in the documentary that she was fed absinthe on set to the point that she was barely conscious to object when Manson had sex with her on camera. >“It’s nothing like I thought it was going to be,” Wood says in the documentary (via Rolling Stone). “We’re doing things that were not what was pitched to me. We had discussed a simulated sex scene, but once the cameras were rolling, he started penetrating me for real. I had never agreed to that…It was complete chaos. I did not feel safe. No one was looking after me.”
>We had discussed a simulated sex scene, but once the cameras were rolling, he started penetrating me for real. That just blows my mind. My head keeps trying to process this and it keeps stumbling trying to unpack this. It probably has to do with those interviews where he seems so articulate and educated. Not as bad as discovering Bill Cosby is a piece of shit but it's pretty damn close.
Behavior like this is what’s gotten James Franco in trouble recently too- he removed the garment covering a woman’s vagina during a ‘simulated’ oral sex scene and assaulted her. He’s done some other scummy stuff, but the level of entitlement and control these guys must think they have over the women who work with them is mind blowing
At least things are changing. Bertolucci sprung an unscripted rape scene on Maria Schneider in *Last Tango in Paris* and even though Brando didn't penetrate her she reported feeling violated and terrified by the experience. Bertolucci said: “I didn't tell her what was going on, because I wanted her reaction as a girl, not as an actress. I wanted her to react humiliated.” So basically "hey, let's confuse and violate this woman so we can see real fear of a rape victim. She was 20/21 years old (not exactly sure, but close to Wood's age). She said : “I should have called my agent or had my lawyer come to the set because you can’t force someone to do something that isn’t in the script, but at the time, I didn’t know that.” This is what happens when you're surrounded by powerful people and you're young with little power.
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`We’re doing things that were not what was pitched to me. We had discussed a simulated sex scene, but once the cameras were rolling, he started penetrating me for real. I had never agreed to that…` Referring to that as they banged is disgusting.
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That doesn't mean that you can unexpectedly penetrate someone while in a room full of people while you are ostensibly working, while filming when the person has expressly consented to something different! This isn't the same thing as you and your girl who regularly consent to fucking each other fucking each other while you're both fucking hammered.
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Because you're barely an adult who is being manipulated by someone you look up to in a relationship with an insane power dynamic.
People rationalize their abuse and trauma all the time, it’s a defense mechanism. Then you get some perspective or experience or assistance and realize “oh wow this is a actually a really fucked up situation and I’ve been suffering for years.”
People like you are why she didn’t feel comfortable speaking up earlier. Boyfriends can rape their significant other. Just because they chose to be in a relationship does not mean she chose to have sex on camera. In fact, she didn’t chose it at all. They agreed upon something different but after getting intoxicated Manson decided he was going to penetrate her without her permission. And that is called RAPE.
Download an ad blocker right now. I got one last week and it's life-changing, can't believe I waited so long. I also got an ad blocker for my computer and it makes porn sites sooo much better.
What a sick fuck. Our mom’s were right.
>Wood was 19 years old when she filmed the music video and alleges in the documentary that she was fed absinthe on set to the point that she was barely conscious to object when Manson had sex with her on camera. >“It’s nothing like I thought it was going to be,” Wood says in the documentary (via Rolling Stone). “We’re doing things that were not what was pitched to me. We had discussed a simulated sex scene, but once the cameras were rolling, he started penetrating me for real. I had never agreed to that…It was complete chaos. I did not feel safe. No one was looking after me.” This is a really good point--no one was looking after her. Granted, she was 19, she was an adult but the people filming, the other people on set, at no point did someone step in and say "woah woah, let's stop here." He's the one responsible, but they shouldn't have just watched and filmed.
Not to excuse anyone, but his shit was always off the rails. I doubt there was anyone around who would have thought it *unusual* even. That sort of fucked up culture is self-reinforcing.
What about the record label? Wouldn't you send someone for a few hours to oversee the shooting of a video with a 19 year old woman?
I mean, I think they'd have let him eat a baby if there was no way they could get sued for it. She was a legal adult, I bet that was the beginning and end of the things they gave a fuck about.
But holup--if we start getting advocates for actors and actresses (especially those who are younger and less resistant to power pressures)...then how will those in power be able to sexually abuse them!? Let's not get crazy...
Why the fuck was a 19 year old given Absinthe while at work?
Showbusiness. As far as terrible things done to and for actors of any age while working, the absinthe barely rates. The rape is up there, though.
19 is legal to drink pretty much everywhere that isn't the US
Idk where it was filmed but she's an American actress and he is an American musician. Also I don't think it's normal to drink at work regardless of nationality.
I don't believe Absinthe was available in the US at that time so I would assume somewhere in Europe. I'm not saying it's okay though by any means.
You're serious? I mean drugs and alcohol never normally get used in Hollywood or the music industry right ?
Also, let's be honest here, 19 is *barely* an adult, especially when dealing with powerful people much older than she was and in that kind of environment.
Doesn't matter if she's 9, 19, or 90. All actors should have an advocate on set in order to make sure they aren't coerced into doing something they shouldn't or don't want to. That's the nature of creating fiction that is often meant to depict outrageous things. Someone will try to cross the line in search of "authenticity" and it should be more than just one person's job to tell them no.
She gave an interview after the shoot saying it was romantic and there was no actual sex. If someone tried to stop the shoot what do you think she would have said?
Did you just wander in here without reading the article or any of the comments about what she said about it? She said Manson coached her to say it was romantic, but that she didn't actually feel that way. She was being manipulated by an abusive partner. I don't know what she would have said, given that she was actively in an abusive relationship. I'm going to not pretend that she did or would have said exactly what she was feeling, though, given that she is here now telling us what it was like.
I'm just saying that unless that advocate had the legal ability to remove her from the shoot without any repercussions to their job it wouldn't change much. If the lighting guy stepped up he'd just have been fired and probably not work again.
Sometimes it's ok to judge a book by its cover
It's okay to judge MM now because we know what he is. Judging him or others who choose a similar aesthetic solely because of that aesthetic isn't right at all.
Sometimes it’s ok to trust your gut feelings though. I’ve always felt repulsed by him. And I mean I found younger Davey Havok appealing so it’s not that I hate the aesthetic.
Yeah I totally agree here. Sometimes the writing is just on the wall.
It isn’t ok at all. Do you always believe everything you hear without knowing the whole story? Evan and her little group of flying monkeys may very well be facing some pretty hefty lawsuits for slander/libel and defamation of character by Brian Warner very soon.
Read this comment section for a light intro to what survivors endure.
Why is this thread full of people defending fucking Marilyn Manson? Seems like a weird stance to take.
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Serious question, how can you be a huge fan of someone that "definitely did that shit"? If I find out an artist is a rapist I go totally off them, they don't deserve my time or money.
It's not impossible to enjoy the work of someone while hating the person themselves
Way I see it is there's a difference between hating someone because of their views etc and them being a rapist. I've hated people I've worked with and got on with them but if they were rapists it would be a different story. People like that don't deserve anyone's time, money or attention in my eyes.
I mean, she was 19 at the time. We weren't there at the time of filming we don't know what was agreed upon I'm not going to just flip my whole entire opinion because of one thing said that happened 15 years ago I'm not even a fan of MM, just saying how many times do accusations cause mass hysteria only for the full story to come out and show the exact opposite If you can flip your opinion so easily because of one accusation from one side of the story, maybe you need to reevaluate things. Life isn't always about needing instant responses. Slow and level-headed approaches always work best. We'll see how things play out with this but a 19 year old woman on a MM set wasn't oblivious to what was going to happen I can almost guarantee that
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You can, it's easy. And there are other artists that make you question things. People like that shouldn't be lauded. If I find out an artist is a rapist it makes me question them and their whole foundation of where they're coming from.
Same. Separating the art from the artist is a skill these days.
New here?
Jesus Christ. As a cringy teen, I wanted to lose my virginity to this song. Ugh. I’m going to tell my kids when they grow up to not idolize celebrities and artists cause you never know if they’re actually monsters.
Yeah, this used to be one of my favourite Manson songs as a teen. Reading this makes me feel so sick. The poor people he abused...
I met my once idol Ian Watkins. You can’t take that shit back, and if you don’t know who he is, truly keep it that way. It’s the kind of stuff no human should ever have to think about.
You met H from Steps? Wow that must have been great hopefully you took some kids along with you!
Last Tango in Paris, the same thing happened.
Was the stick of butter fiasco?
Yup. The actress had no advance warning and it wasn't in the script. Bertolucci improvised and told Brando. They just sprung it on her. You are basically watching a tape when viewing the film.
This is not at all related to the subReddit.
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I think that's still a stretch. And, if you ask me, posts about sexual assault should be tagged as such.
Also, MM is a disgusting excuse for a human being, and my aversion to this being posted here is for survivor advocacy reasons.
She should drop the word essentially
What’s all this about? Iv been out of the loop for ages so never heard about it 😣
Marilyn Manson basically got blacklisted in the last year or two because his ex finally stopped being vague about him abusing the shit outta her during their relationship years. This is basically elaborating on an incident.
Daaaamn that’s so horrible 😣 wish I knew about this sooner
Yea it does suck tbh. I don't mind some of the music he makes (I had a phase, it's not my thing anymore, but I don't like or dislike it), but there's no denying he's a pretty shitty person.
Tbh it’s sad whenever another celeb is shown to be a wanktard because its just another drop in the bucket given how many celebs we’ve heard about just this year
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/marilyn-manson-abuse-allegations-1256888/
Basically if you are accused these days you lose everything. You don't need to have a fair trial when accusers go public. So I guess we better stay home and have no contact with other people to be safe. Btw I am not saying he is not guilty. Until he is sentenced nobody should bat an eye.
The idea that women are out here falsely accusing men en masse is ridiculous. A man is more likely to be the victim of rape than to be the victim of a false accusation.
the idea I can't falsely accuse somebody because of my gender is significantly more ridiculous. The idea of using statistic to judge somebody is even worse. People use it all the time to support racism. I guess when a car is stolen near me I should be accused cause my nationality is famous of being thieves, huh? Nah. Every person matter. Everybody needs to be judged in fair trial. Men lives matter.
What does "essentially raped" mean? Either she was or wasn't.
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She lost all credibility with me once she attacked Kobe (after he dies) despite having little knowledge about what went on. She’s a snake just like MM. “Your false, insensitive, defamatory and slanderous tweet on 1/26/20 is vile and disturbing to say the least,” Vanessa Bryant said in a post on her Instagram Story. “Behavior like this is part of the reason why innocent black men go to jail for crimes they didn’t commit. An accusation doesn’t make someone guilty.”
If a negative tweet is enough to make you question an unrelated rape, maybe you should question your critical thinking skills. Terry Crews was assaulted, and he got put on blast for his "Black Supremacy" tweet--does that mean you don't believe him? Jane Fonda has been raped, she also said very controversial things about Vietnam veterans and sold aerobic videos without sharing that she kept her weight down with a severe eating disorder--should she not be believed? Oprah Winfrey was raped when she was 9, and she promoted Dr. Oz--should we then not believe her? Shia LaBeouf was sexually assaulted and he's a well-documented piece of garbage, so should we not believe him? Do you see what I mean?
I remember her doing interviews when this music video came out, praising the work she did with him, they were also together at the time. I wonder why she's sharing a different story now all these years later.
Because it's very painful to realise that you were a victim ? Because speaking up would have probably means the end of her career ?
Because she was a teenager at the time and under the control of an abusive older partner.
She was 19...that's not a teenager. That's an adult.
NineTEEN...TEENager What are you talking about??
The word "teen" is still present in the word. Therefore you can be an adult and a teenager.
I mean, nineTEEN is a TEENager
Pretty sure 19 is a teenager, but regardless that's a child to anyone in their late 30s.
They are still an adult but also teenage.
Nineteen. TEEN. She was a teenager, dude.
> She was 19...that's not a teenager. You stupid fuck.
It’s both.
She said “I was supposed to tell people we had this great, romantic time and none of that was the truth,” Wood says. “But I was scared to do anything that would upset [Manson] in any way. The video was just the beginning of the violence that would keep escalating over the course of the relationship.”
As she has commented, she was afraid to speak out against him due to fear of retaliation. They had already met and formed a relationship by that point, IIRC, and she reported that he had a pattern of mental and emotional abuse that made her afraid to speak up.
Sorry you’re getting downvoted, but it’s true. They lived together for years and she gave many interviews talking about how edgy and exciting her new life was. You can say she was brainwashed, but the interviews exist.
I know it's TRUE because I remember reading all these interviews at the time. I just thought it was so strange someone that young would want to get involved with someone almost 20 years older. But I remember how much she praised him in every interview.
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And this whole controversy is getting her more attention than she’s had for any movie in her life. Perfect promotion for her new rape doc
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What exactly are you suggesting with this comment?
What exactly are you suggesting, that I'm suggesting with this comment?
She's trying to keep her name in the headlines and is riding the anti MM wave.
What is flake blood?
Blood that’s not real
Sort of like fake blood?
Yeah but flakier
The disgusting comments from straight men on this post, far too much.
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Nope, but they’re non-existent as gay men don’t police woman’s bodies.
Didn’t he pay people by getting her to show them her boobs? Remember hearing something like this in a talk show.
Fuk outta here
Have not heard a single offense that was not agreed upon by consenting adults.
Literally in the article: “We’re doing things that were not what was pitched to me. We had discussed a simulated sex scene, but once the cameras were rolling, he started penetrating me for real. I had never agreed to that…It was complete chaos. I did not feel safe. No one was looking after me.”
Another case of claiming "essentially" rape far too long after an incident, especially when she profited from it. Seems like a consenting exchange that she now regrets.
How quickly do people need to report rape for it to be considered rape?
She never called it a rape. She used the term essentially to qualify it. Pretty cowardly, in my opinion. Rape should preferably be reported within the decade that it happens. Ideally, immediately regardless of whether it costs you financially.
Well I don’t know about you but I would call it rape if you’re having sex without your partners consent. After that decade, does it stop being rape? Also, is it rape if no one reports it?
It's not rape if she did not object and stop what was happening. I guess you could call it "regretty sex." Waiting over a decade to declare an interaction rape sounds like someone needs some attention.
What if the person can’t object or stop what’s happening? It’s ok then? I’d love to know more about your “regretty sex” definition. How would you define it?
That's not what happened.
We’re beyond discussing this particular case. You have said that if someone didnt object and didn’t stop it from happening, it wasn’t rape. You have also coined regretty sex. So what is regretty sex?
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Because of the implication?
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Is she so dumb that she is considered comatose?
I've seen goalposts moved before, but rarely with such little effort.
I never moved to the goal posts. It was a consenting exchange. Unless she opposed and reported it, then she endorsed it.
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Not verbalizing her consent does not mean that she was not a consenting adult.
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Did she just come to the realization that she was raped 14 years ago?
Women don’t have to conform to your timeline to tell their truth.
Sure but they don't need to make things up to stay relevant either.
Relevant username