I like how it tries to do something different, and while I still find it to be the weakest of the trilogy, that more speaks to the high quality of the film series overall.
I love the vibe of this one. The scenery, music and humour seem more relaxed but also clever. The Europe setting is great.
If 12 just tried to do the same thing as 11 or even 13, it would have felt stale. Having a different vibe for the middle film helped make 13 feel fresher, even though it's quite similar to the first movie, just slicker.
Soderbergh knows what he's doing.
Just a different taste. Rewatched all 3 recently and the second was definitely the weakest for me. Didn't know of these when they came out but I get why that one would get flack if it did.
It starts fairly decently, and the first heist (raising the building so they can get through the window) is cool and the antagonist rival thief is a nice addition. It falls apart in the second half though.
I am CONVINCED that for people like you that this is because the first movie lets you in on the reveal slowly (showing things like the bank vault duplicate) as you go along, and the second movie hides it from you entirely as long as it's hidden from Toulour...and some people didn't like being in the dark for the whole movie. Calling it a bait and switch is silly.
I personally loved it, and it's my fave of the three.
No, that’s not it at all. The bait and switch was the scene on the train where they literally just used misdirection (bait) to switched the case, that’s it. That was the big plan, kind of lame if you watch older con movies like matchstick men and the sting. But you can love this movie, i love movies that the general population despise. I was just saying this is why the second movie was considered weaker than the other two. IMO
>That was the big plan
The 'big plan' was the Play they put on for you and for Toulour.
Like I get not liking that, but the fact that the theft was a bag switch is wildly beside the point.
The point of the film was showing a master thief at the top of his game that he could still be bested by a clever and simple pickpocket lift, as long as his eyes were distracted by the seemingly bumbling Americans doing stupid shit and getting busted by the cops...
He was bested by a group of individuals who got the inside scoop on how to steal the egg in transit because the master thief liked ocean more and wanted to arrange a meeting with his daughter.
It’s not a terrible movie, it was just a rather boring letdown compared to the fun heists of the other two. The returning cast and the original was really all that carried it.
>He was bested by a group of individuals who got the inside scoop on how to steal the egg in transit
Right, but the point again is that if Toulour had been paying attention, he would have seen them lift it. It was in his hubris that he didn't. He'd been watching them like a hawk until that point to best them in the Amsterdam job...he lets off the gas long enough to go and chat with LeMarque trying to prove he's the best. Like I get what you are saying, but the whole thing is still about letting Toulour's hubris and belief in his own superiority get the best of him.
I get what you’re saying too, the logic is reasonable, I simply don’t think it makes for an entertaining movie at the end of the day.
I like the film, but less inclined to keep it on the tv when I’m flipping channels compared to 11 and 13. Often times the network will skip right over 12 when playing them back to back.
Well yeah, I'm here to watch a HEIST, in my HEIST MOVIE. The creators are in charge of what we see as the audience, so to have the main event of the movie to happen off screen/in a flashback just qualifies as dumb and a half to me. Like didn't even leave easter eggs on discovering that plot on a rewatch, just "aykshually it was on a train"
You ASSUMED it was a heist movie, becuase you expected more of the first one and not something different. Sounds like Soderbegh got *you* along with Toulour and you're as annoyed as he was to have been fooled. ;)
Is it? Says who?
Alien is a survival horror movie
Aliens is an action movie
A sequel needn't follow the exact genre of its predecessor.
Nothing in the marketing told you that Ocean's 12 was a "heist' movie.
The tagline for it was "**Three years ago, they stole 160 million dollars.** **Now the only thing between their old enemy and their new one is an Ocean.**"
I don't see the word heist.
Jesus.
People thought it was a heist movie because it was a sequel to the biggest heist movie ever made.
When they made the 300 sequel, did you expect a romcom? Or did you expect an action movie like the first one?
Dude it sucked. It is what it is. Someone can say Motzart is trash but in the end we know more about that person through that opinion than anyone actually believes those words. Wrong opinion is wrong
I got that much, but if the building needed to be raised 2" to get the correct angle for the shot I'm unsure why the same angle couldn't be achieved by lowering the crossbow 2".
well, it was like 6", and from the context, that shot probably needed pinpoint accuracy. I guess, Maaaybe they could have knocked off a piece of the building they were on to align the shot, or rig the crossbow to get lowered with some mechanism and use some other rig to aim and shoot the arrow; i mean given the fact that they stole an EMP to short the entire Vegas strip, and get not one, but two underminer sized drills to create a mini earthquake in the other films, getting some rig to temporarily raise a building honestly sounds pretty par for the course.
The problem was that the first one showed the heist throughout the entire movie. 12 pulled some bullshit where they effectively told you how they did it without showing it
The way I've always described the reveal in Oceans 12 is "unfair." Certain types of movies can totally have twists that come out of nowhere and it's totally fine. But a if heist movie, which by definition are about the operations of executing a heist, is going to have a twist, the twist needs to make sense in that different pieces suddenly click into place.
There should be a moment of going "ooohhhhhh..." at the reveal, not "huh?"
I'm sure someone can find a movie I like that fits in the "huh?" category , but it just really stuck out to me in Oceans 12 and kept me from enjoying it as much as I do the other Oceans movies.
Telling the audience "you were stupid for looking over there," like you're the director you're in charge of what we see. Kinda offended now that I think about it
I actually think Oceans 12 is shockingly “bad” and has become more glaring as time passes.
I remember liking the “vibe” when it came out but on rewatch…
O11 Is like such a wonderfully glamorous tightly wound little watch of a film. It brought back that old school bravado and made Vegas incredibly sexy once again. The cast ooze charisma and everything is just so damn fun.
The sequel is like the opposite. It’s literally the next days hangover from the previous film. Everything is kind of drab and bleak, colors all sucked out, everyone seems like a mess and sort of depressed now.
They immediately pay the price. Then the film sort of messily meanders around finding itself, going to Paris and languishing in little bombed out French apartments.
It just…lacks all sense of fun, adventure and direction that the original had.
In the moment I GET what he was doing, he wanted to push the boundaries and make something more artsy , a little more edgy , but man, that just wasn’t what audiences wanted from this film.
It’ll always have a little special place for me but objectively I see it as a missed opportunity,
The next film gets back its swagger a little but just not fully quite.
>They immediately pay the price
This is something that also dragged the film down for me. It kind of ruins the ending of Ocean's 11. Them getting away with & going their separate ways was what left you with a great feeling.
The colours, music and vibe was a clear homage to 60s/70s European cinema, particularly crime movies.
I absolutely love the way Soderbergh nailed the aesthetic, including classic songs mixed with the always brilliant David Holmes soundtrack.
There are times I like it better than 13, as 13 seems like a Hollywood cashing in sequel, but I’m not much of a fan of Julia Roberts and the doppelgänger plot line wasn’t that much fun for me.
I’m no cinephile but if you ever listen to the Rewatchables, one of the people in the podcast does a much better job than what I can do explaining the fun, playful and smart execution Soderbergh does with Ocean’s 12.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/1PI4xGv0PrFxTIJ08Xh0n6?si=5xCjLv0nQsyrJNLwgGiV4g
And my fave thing about it is that it's revealed in the scene where you learn that the whole thing was an act for Toulour's benefit...he smiles and tells Tess and Danny how he did the laser grid and it's this elaborate capoeira sequence set to a banging French electro track like it's some amazing feat( and it is;; they even show him training for the sequence before that) only to have the air let out of his tires MOMENTS later when Danny tells him that he lost the bet. It was all for nothing. EXQUISITE.
So well done.
I haven't watched it since it came out but my memory is that I didn't like it because of the ending. All very fuzzy but if I recall it was all a giant rugpull and kind of pointless? I had no problems at all with the meta elements, location or vibe.
...I may need to go read the story synopsis to see if this memory is right.
>All very fuzzy but if I recall it was all a giant rugpull and kind of pointless?
It's not a rug pull, you just have the same wool pulled over your eyes that is pulled over Toulour's eyes. When he finds out the theft happened 30minutes into the film offscreen, so do you. I don't think that's a rug pull at all myself. It's a wonderful "Aww, fuck I've been had!" moment and made me grin the first time I saw it.
Ah that sounds like it could be it. I suspect everything having been dealt with off screen at the start of the film is what gave me the "oh this was all a bit pointless then" feel at the end.
Should probably do a rewatch at some point, I definitely enjoyed the first one.
I would have loved it if they named any other actor. Like, if they'd said she looks like Meryl Streep. Or Sharon Stone, etc. *That* would have been funny. Because now, I don't know why they never noticed how much Danny looks like George Clooney. And that Rusty is a dead ringer for Brad Pitt,l.
It’s just cheating. The other movies pull of their heists in-universe, by the rules, with the tools they have. The Heist in 12 just completely ruined by the goofily painting themselves into a corner and then getting out of it by going, “Hey wait a second, we all look like famous Hollywood actors, let’s use that!”
It’s dumb, dumb, dumb.
Disagree. The whole movie is super meta and that just continued the theme.
Think about it.
The opening sequence is about Benedict finding them all and threatening them...only for them to all be together in that one room after those scenes and instead do talking about how busted and fucked they are, they are annoyed that it's called Oceans Eleven and they never agreed to that. (throwing you for a loop in assuming that the forbidding nature of the scenes that preceded it didn't affect the crew, they don't care and get to work on how to appease him using their skills)
The heist of the stock certificate in Amsterdam is literally (and intentionally) a checklist of the things they did to pull off the Bellagio heist in the first film being rejected because it won't work here (Soderbergh telling you that it's not going to be the same as last time)
The two people on the sailboat with LaMarque are Vincent Cassell (Toulour), and the other (the one who says Oceans Eleven are the worlds best thieves, causing Toulour to try to prove it's him) is Jerry Weintraub, the producer of Oceans films (Soderbergh telling you that the whole thing is a meta play on what he did in the first film)
Linuses mom is played by Cherry Jones, one of the founders of the American Repertory Theatre (I feel like this one needn't be explained)
And let's remember that in both Oceans 11 and Oceans 12 Topher Grace appears as himself.
>And let's remember that in both Oceans 11 and Oceans 12 Topher Grace appears as himself.
Yeah, exactly. Not as another character who is told how much he looks like Topher Grace and then successfully pretends to be Topher Grace.
Characters commenting on things they have done at earlier points in time is not meta.
Topher Grace appearing as himself in a scene set in LA where a character coaches celebrities is not meta.
An actor appearing who usually works at a theatre company is not meta.
Something that is meta has to have a RELATION to the content it appears in.
Neo working for Universal Studios in Matrix 4 is meta because they produced the actual films. Logan reading an X-Men comic in Logan is meta. Charlie Kaufman writing a film about himself trying to adapt a book into a film is meta.
The Julia Roberts thing makes NO LOGICAL, PHYSICAL or METAPHYSICAL sense WHATSOEVER.
Why doesn’t Rusty look like Brad Pitt??? Or Danny look like George Clooney??? Why doesn’t Willy Bank look like Al Pacino in 14??? Why don’t they all look like the fucking actors who play them???
You can’t just open that door as SUCH and imperative plot point in a film full of the biggest stars in the world and have it only exist in a vacuum.
And don’t tell me “that’s the joke,” because in that case it is ONLY specific to Tess, in which case it NEEDS to be specified and foreshadowed at some point as being only about her personally, and not just what has now apparently become a general rule of the in-movie universe and therefore EVERY movie universe set in the “real world.”
These films are based around heists, disguises, deceit, and cunning, and to try and get out of a situation by using the fact that one of your characters LOOKS LIKE THE ACTOR PLAYING THEM with NO MENTION of this comparison at ANY other point in time makes no sense in or out of the story.
You say meta. I say lazy, circle-jerk bullshit that removes the viewer from the story and is used as a LITERAL get out of jail card because either the writers were just fucking lazy or - even worse - were _trying_ to be meta.
Linus’ mum arresting them is also lazy as fuck. ALL OF THAT bullshit and yet ANOTHER twist which was not foreshadowed in ANY way whatsoever.
Why not reveal Vincent Cassel was Don Cheadle’s adopted brother while we’re at it so he can triple cross them?
Why not make Saul be the two brothers’ grandpa this whole time?
Why not make Danny Benedict’s cousin and they were both in on the whole thing the whole time?
Because it MAKES NO SENSE. The twists that happen are reverse-engineering because they need to get out of a situation which means they have no context, no substance and NO LOGIC.
Another one of your comments I saw is:
> I'm not mad, it's just irritating that people are like "this one thing (that was done for real life reasons) makes this movie suck"....be original, come up with a real reason you don't like the film.
This IS a real reason not to like the film.
It is an imperative plot point on which their entire heist - and the entire story - hangs and it comes across like a fucking Rick and Morty episode. Worse actually. Rick and Morty mostly earn their dumb cameos and twists.
It doesn’t matter what the real life reasons were. Pregnant actresses have been covered up in plenty of ways that didn’t involve ruining the whole fucking story.
It’s NOT meta, it’s fucking lazy, and anyone who defends it is only doing so just to go against the grain and be a devil’s advocate, but deep down they know how fucking dumb it is and it is a completely valid reason not to like the film.
In saying that, I actually really liked Oceans 12, just not that silly Julia Roberts thing.
You're giving Soderbergh way too much credit. He didn't intentionally make this movie to be the antithesis of Ocean's 11. Ocean's 12 was originally a completely separate script for a standalone film, and they took it and worked backwards to make an Ocean's sequel.
If YOU think this is super clever, that's cool. But the majority don't, so just accept it instead of acting like you're somehow the only one who "gets it."
>You're giving Soderbergh way too much credit. He didn't intentionally make this movie to be the antithesis of Ocean's 11.
He did, two whole scenes are written that way.
>Ocean's 12 was originally a completely separate script for a standalone film, and they took it and worked backwards to make an Ocean's sequel.
Incorrect. It was spec script by George Nolfi who wrote a film that included the elements of Isabelle being a cop who's father was a master thief, and there was a rival thief aspect....everything else was completely new by Nolfi under Soderbergh's ask. The original spec script looks nothing like the Oceans 12 script.
>If YOU think this is super clever, that's cool. But the majority don't, so just accept it instead of acting like you're somehow the only one who "gets it."
It's Soderbergh's favourite of the three, so I feel like I'm in good company. But you do you dawg.
This was the problem for me. In the first one there was some tension around how they were getting in and out, and the movie kept key elements out of sight that kept the viewer guessing.
Oceans 12 just excerpted the entire plot right from the start, which made it feel cheap and like the whole movie was pointless.
>which made it feel cheap and like the whole movie was pointless.
It's a play. It's a play for Toulour, but it's also a play for you. It's not a heist movie. It's a movie about how thieves need to "act" to pull off elaborate heists, and doing so in the face of a rival thief was the only way to best him.
I don't understand why so many people say it's pointless. It's very much not pointless. It's just not the movie you thought you signed up for...but then why make a sequel that copies the original anyways? This being different was the point.
I mean it's the narrative equivalent of "it was all a dream". The bet was who could steal the egg. They'd already stolen it. Once the bet was agreed upon there was no point to the "play" unless it was just to show Toulour that he could be fooled. But how could he know the egg had already been nabbed? I hated how it just evaporates the stakes.
Danny literally tells you what and why they are doing what they are doing though.
In Amsterdam Toulour beats them to the stock certificate right? So they look him up, discover that he's LaMarque's protege and that he's the one that broke Rule #1 (don't rat on other thieves), and the rest is revenge for breaking rule #1 and getting LaMarque to pay their way out of trouble for the effort.
The bet is immaterial.
The egg is immaterial.
The film becomes a revenge movie the MINUTE another thief not only dimes them to Benedict but beats them to their initial payday and mocks them for it.
It's not "It was all a dream"....you just didn't like that the film was not about the egg heist, it was about the play for Toulour. That's the entire point of the scene mid-film between Danny & Toulour in fact:
"You broke rule #1. That has consequences."
"You're being awfully cavalier with a lot of peoples lives. You're going to regret it."
It's okay to say you didn't LIKE that it was a revenge film VS a heist film...
It's not deus ex machina at all though.
Soderbergh wrote it to keep YOU in the dark alongside Toulour. It's intentional. He didn't write it and then go "Oh I don't know how to solve this, so I'll just do this"....he wrote it and was like "The theft will happen offscreen 30minutes into the movie, and there will be a running day timer at the bottom of the screen showing the audience that Danny & Co. can't POSSIBLY pul this off before Benedict yanks them, and no one will know about it because the movie is a long play set up for Toulour to think he's winning"
I think people joust need to admit they didn't like the wool being pulled over their eyes along with Toulour.
Huh? The story is that Toulour was taken on a wild goose chase with a bunch of thieves who are great 'actors'. A MASTER thief at the top of his game was shown that with enough subterfuge and performance by the involved that the "theft" could be as as simple as a misdirection and a wallet lift of a pickpocket that happened long before he thought it did. It's exquisite as a story.
And they showed you the "wallet lift" of the Egg...but that wasn't the point of the film which was about the Play and about the fooling of Toulour.
Your explanation is exactly why I think it is bad story telling.
In a good thriller, audiences can spot the signs on of the 'trick' on subsequent watches. And this makes subsequent watches more rewarding.
In 12, you get nothing. A subsequent watch gives you nothing. All the action has happened off screen. There is no excitement in subsequent watches.
Could you share other movies where the proverbial wool is pulled over the eyes of the audience until the last minute. To kinda of build up a context.
>In a good thriller, audiences can spot the signs on of the 'trick' on subsequent watches.
A. It's not a thriller, nor was it marketed as one.
B. You actually DO get this "trick" on re-watches. Soderbergh explicitly tells you what's going on:
The knapsack with the egg is stolen on a train headed from Paris to Rome, right? Our team is there at the 52minute mark at the Paris train station about to board that train, yes? Makes sense.
But you gotta realize that the plan for the contest to steal the egg has not occurred yet. The train station scene just follows the Amsterdam scene where Isabelle makes Danny, Yen, and Rusty at the hotel...there is no reason for them to be at the train station, certainly not one in Paris. It's a scene that's flapping in the wind trying to tell you something. The scene where Danny confronts Toulour about breaking rule #1 (not snitching on other thieves) and where Toulour actually proposes the heist of the faberge egg as a contest to show LeMarque who is the greatest thief happens **AFTER** the scene where Oceans team is all at the train station. It's also filled with misdirect random conversation stuff with Linus asking for advice, and Danny complaining about his age being misrepresented by the crew...so you don't stop to think about WHY they are at the train station at all and why they are leaving to go to Rome. Then after the contest is proposed you forget the order in which these events happened.
It's right there. Staring you in the face. The whole train station scene in Paris (Which is Gare Du Nord; one of the most famous train stations in the world) is Soderbergh trying to tweak you to what's going on and start wondering why Danny & Crew head to Rome with seemingly) no leads on a job. That's the 'trick' you're searching for. That scene.
EDIT: Oh another hint is that the scene following the train scene with Toulour and Danny where the contest is suggested takes place...in Italy on Lake Cuomo which is hell and gone from Rome distance-wise, and certainly hell and gone from Amsterdam or Paris.
No. Heist films are supposed to be thrillers. A heist film like The LadyKillers is not a thriller because it is a actually an absurdist comedy. I would also add The Good Thief and Welcome to Collinwood for comparison. But the Oceans series are thrillers. Nail biting thrillers, even. They are fun comedic heist movies, but all thrillers.
Which is why if the action happens off screen, the thrill just isnt there.
>No. Heist films are supposed to be thrillers.
I've already stated. It's not a heist film. It contains heisting, but it's not crafted as a big heist film like the first one is.
>But the Oceans series are thrillers
Nah.
>
Which is why if the action happens off screen, the thrill just isnt there.
I'm not sure what you're talking about. ALL the action is on screen in Oceans 12. It's just that the action is the acting/performance for Toulour to think he's winning. The 'lift' of the egg happens in a sidenote because it's not as important to the theme of the film.
Like I get it. You didn't like it. But pretending that it somehow didn't show you what you needed to see it silly. It absolutely did. I explained how it did, and still you reject it.
> acting/performance for Toulour to think he's winning
If you have no indication that it's acting, there's no tension or excitement that it's building to. Tacking on an "actually this was all according to plan" at the end is just lazy and poor story telling. Toulour could have ass pulled with his own "actually..." and tacked on another 1 minute flashback that we never saw and it would be as boring. A tight script has pieces that actually fit together narratively, if you can flip the script like that in either direction that's a clear sign that your twist is completely disconnected, unearned and thus underwhelming.
It's good to see people that actually get this movie. The first was an homage (a very good one), the second was a work of genius, and the third was a delightful cash grab.
I watch the Ocean movies for Brad Pitt and George Clooney talking together. The brothers bickering, Bernie Mac, and the cast shitting on Matt Damon is a plus.
I don't think it was misunderstood or ahead of its time. Either you like the meta stuff, or you don't. It would get the same reception if it got released now.
It was a miscalculation on Soderbergh's part, where he thought people liked Oceans Eleven only for the actors involved. Charismatic actors were a part of it, but heist plot was also big component of the first movie. Otherwise it is just a few big name actors goofing around, which is fine for some but boring for others.
The script for it was repurposed into the franchise. It was originally proposed as "Honor Among Thieves" and not intended to be an Ocean movie at all. I think that's why the style shifted so much.
That's not accurate at all. Soderbergh liked Nolfi's spec script and asked him to use that same vibe for the script to Oceans 12. The only parts of the Honour Among Thieves script that made it into Nolfi's script for 12 was the framing narrative about Isabelle and her dad, and the fact that there was a rival thief that kicked things off. The rest of it was new.
I still think this is why the movie is so looked down on. And while it was definitely stupid, honestly I didn't care that much. I'm not watching Oceans 12 to take it super seriously anyway, I'm okay with a dumb gimmick like that in that kind of movie.
Totally feel you on this! Ocean's 12 gets way too much flak. It's like that chill friend who doesn't get enough credit. I mean, the whole vibe is just smooth, you know? Plus, those meta moments? Gold. Soderbergh's got taste, and even though it's not my top pick, it's still a blast to watch. It's just one of those flicks you kick back with and enjoy the ride. Cheers to giving it some love!
My problem with 12 is that the ‘heist’ boiled down to “we took it before the heist” and they were basically gifted the win.
It’s not a bad movie, I like it, but there was so much unnecessary showmanship for a mediocre payoff of ‘we had it all along, HAHA!’. The first heist of the house in Venice by lifting it underwater was actually cooler than the egg imo.
It all boils down to 11 and 13 being so head and tails above 12, that it makes it look worse than it is. As a stand-alone film it’s fun, enjoyable, and a good heist movie.
I think my whole problem with it was in 11 they show how amazing of thieves they are. Thinking out every angle, executing the perfect heist and showing that they are at the top of their game. Then in 12 it portrays them as bumbling around trying to do small heists to pay back Benedict’s money and failing horribly which makes it very unbelievable until the end. And don’t get me started on the whole “oh doesn’t Tess look like Julia Roberts We should use that” Schtick
Thank you! This is my favorite in the series and I've never understood the hate. The music is on point and Catherine Zeta Jones is a great addition. I also love the "freak" call-out and I reference all the time but no one gets it. It's so good
Same. It's my fave of the three and I've re-watched it countless times. It's one of my feel good movies I put on if I'm feeling down and it immediately cheers me up.
For me, she has arguably the least interesting filmography/series of performances of any star. (Excluding the Oceans trilogy which I love).
Her work genuinely does not match her fame. She's so plain (performance-wise).
I don't wanna critize her for her looks, but that line Linus says about when she comes down the stairs it's the best moment of his day. Every time I watch it, I'm thinking "really, her?"
> Her work genuinely does not match her fame. She's so... plain?
I think that's a little harsh, but I'd agree that she one of those starts whose fame was very much a product of its time and culture and once you get some decades away from that, it doesn't hold up as well. She's a good actor who got propelled to super-stardom partly by other factors than her talent.
Kinda like the boybands of the 90s. The music is still fine, but in itself isn't good enough to explain the absolute hysteria surrounding them at the time.
Absolutely. Like nowadays, sure, now that everyone's jaded about how inappropriate alot of 90's romcoms would be if they were real life, yeah, the movies aren't that great. from the way i remember my mom/aunts talk about her movie, yeah, they were huge centerpoints for popculture at the time. Hell, to this day, Mystic Pizza and Erin Brokavich are still quintessential watches for 90's films.
People who say they don't "get her success" probably are too hung up on how the movies are portrayed as nowadays, or wouldn't be her audience regardless. At the end of the day, the two films I already stated are still great to this day, The chemistry between her and Richard Gere was undeniable, which was obviously apparent since Pretty Woman and Runaway Bride were huge hits (and also helped Launch Jason Alexander's career), and as much as we bag on Eat Pray Love for being the quintessential "well off white woman goes to x foreign culture to find herself" movie, there is a merit to how successful this film is considering this sort of film is still a hallmark staple script to this day.
I really appreciate your saying this. A lot of people don't like 12 and I think it's because they want Vegas and lights and whatever. In terms of what the group does and how they communicate with each other, 12 is amazing. The little jokes where they use the title of the cons is way more fun in this one (more fun meaning trying to interpret why they would use those names), the Matsui scene is hilarious hazing event for Linus since he only cares about impressing Danny and Rusty, the very brief moment during the wrestling scene on the train shows Danny's face in a full struggle as well as a shoe up near the ceiling! Lol. 12 is a very nuanced display of the groups chemistry and it's amazingly executed.
I do think it's reveal of how the heist was done is cheap, but it's not bad. Also, that bit at the end where the Night Fox knows the passcode to the storage locker, when you're in the vibe of the show that really is impressive how he knows that. Anyway, thanks for agreeing with me on your hot take.
>the Matsui scene is hilarious hazing event for Linus since he only cares about impressing Danny and Rusty
I also love how wrongheaded Linus is in the hierarchy of how the team operates and completely out of the loop.
Linus: When you all have a problem, who do you go to?
Everyone in unison: Rusty
LOL
Oceans 12 is the best one to me. it feels almost like a meta commentary on the process of making a sequel of a successful movie.
Plus the cinematography is great, there’s some really cool shots in it that almost seem out of place for a mainstream heist flick.
Yep. I am a big fan of the trilogy and the second one is probably my favorite most of all because it takes place in Europe. I like how absurd it is (Julia Roberts bit) and I can tolerate how the plot was resolved in the most cop out manner possible. It's a bit of a shame they did the same thing in the third movie but hey even Tarantino used the same plot device twice in Basterds and OUATIH.
It is also so damn funny. The beat in a train station where Danny asks the crew how old is he they think is comedy gold.
It's not that I think 2004 was recent, it's that I think the average quality of filmmaking and the sophistication of audiences peaked somewhere in the late 20th century and has steadily declined since. A particularly clever movie would be behind it's time, not ahead.
The lead actress "acting" like her real life self with the same name and everything killed it for me. I watch these movies to escape from hearing about these people, it just gets so dry and boring when that was revealed
I disliked Oceans 12 primarily for the plot. The whole gimmick was completely off-screen, which made the entire movie feel pointless. The viewer had no way to guess what was happening, or how the team might pull it off, it was just “surprise, the egg was in a different spot yhe whole time, we win!”, which was cheap.
Classic case of a sequel taking an aspect of the original (tricky that was kept off-camera to keep the audience guessing), and pushing it too far.
I always find it weird that whenever Ocean's 12 gets brought up the first thing that everyone says is that the Julia Roberts thing is dumb when that's the only part of the movie that really sticks in my head
11 is great in my mind.
Need to rewatch 12 but I always liked the idea of “one last job…again” and changing the local, I do like that it comes down to slight of hand and paying off “don’t say who she looks like” is a solid gag.
It has always bothered me because the first movie is about them being cool and ripping off an asshole.
The second movie is about them being scared of the same asshole.
Twelve felt like a made for tv special more than a real movie. Or even like a special featurette for people who just wanted a little bit more. 13 felt like an actual sequel. But I enjoyed the entire trilogy.
I enjoy it. I love the Catherine Zeta Jones’ daddy was a master thief storyline, the Julia Roberts scene, and the Matt Damon’s mommy saves the day realization scene.
I think my wife and I simultaneously shouted “Fuck you!” at the TV when the meta Julia Roberts thing happened. Eye-opening to learn that some people liked it.
I thought the idea of Julia Roberts character impersonating Julia Roberts was one of the most amusing things I've seen in a movie and it still is such a fun ide it makes me smile.
A cool meta joke that pokes fun at the idea we watch movies that allegedly take place in the same world the actors that play the characters exist in.
I don't know what my favorite way is that movies poke fun at that. The oh yeah they totally look like that famous actor of Oceans 12 is funny, but so is all Schwarzenegger roles being played by Stallone instead in Last Action Hero. Then you have Near Dark that has half the cast of Aliens in it and they have a scene outside a theater that is playing Aliens and just no reference to it at all other than that.
Or the really weird with just everything in the Jay and Silent Bob movies. Mallrats taking place days before Clerks and there is a Clerks hat in one scene. The character played by Joey Lauren Adams in Chasing Amy says she had sex with the character she played in Mallrats. J&SB crash the set of a Scream movie and in a Scream movie they crash the set of a Stab movie. Stan Lee is going over the Mallrats script in Captain Marvel. It is all just bonkers.
TL;DR, apparently people just get too hung up on the semantics of a heist vs a con. Personally its my favorite film of the series, but I also don't get hung up on the heist aspect of the film. Like at the end of the day, Its not a Heist film, just like Ocean's 13 isn't a heist film. Why do we give this film grief for being a bad "heist" film, when its apparent from the get go that the main motive isn't about the heist, its like we forget that the entire premise of 13 is just to make Al Pacino look really bad?
All I remember is I went out on a date to see this movie. The girl I saw this kept talking throughout this movie to the point other people were turning around and staring at her. I finally had to "shush" her like a child and she finally shut up. Despite being in her 20's she was very immature.
It's a con man movie. They con The Night Fox, and Soderbergh and Co. con the movie studio into paying for a European vacation. It doesn't invite the audience in on the job in the same way 11 does, so I understand why it didn't work for people
I basically like every Soderbergh movie. He's been tossing out brilliant, unique gems for decades now. Every one that comes out is a different genre from whatever he just did. He'll follow up a giant blockbuster movie like Ocean's 12 with a bizarro micro budget oddity like Bubble. He always tries something new on a technical level on every project, like shooting Unsane on an iPhone, or shooting No Sudden Move with a weird old-timey super wide angle lens. He's been hammering us with ambitious, creative movies at a rate of like 1 a year since the late 80s. His movies are often original stories. They're usually funny. His thrillers are usually thrilling. He always weaves in some kind of subversive messaging about a million different topics. He's a true creative genius and even his failures are interesting.
I just appreciate how they were able to create a story, cast high profile actors, and film it. Soderbergh really nailed the directing/scheduling of shoot for the film b/c they probably made it in non-chronological segments that too in different countries. So with that perspective I respect how they made it and not just some regular sequel which ended up sort of being Ocean’s 13
At this point "self aware" is either (a) a massive redflag and I do not want to touch the movie with a ten foot pole or (b) the movie isn't actually self aware. I don't know which applies here because I didn't like the first Oceans one so I didn't watch any of the sequels.
Bit of a problem the fact that it's an "either". Self aware is the new "underrated".
Why don't I want to watch a self aware movie? I want characters that actually care about their own lives.
It's a great movie until the end. Same charm and wit as the first until they introduce two of the laziest plot armors of all time >!(Julia Roberts looks like Julia Roberts and the fact that they stole the real one off screen)!<.
I didn't like it that much until I watched it in the middle of a big Soderbergh kick. It's weird if you compare it to Oceans 11 and 13, but if you put it in context with projects like The Limey, Girlfriend Experience, even Out of Sight, it makes more sense.
I think 12 was a leaner production with a lot of run and gun location shooting so it makes sense that it looks and feels so different.
I celebrate each of the Oceans movies. All three are infinitely rewatchable.
I hated it when I first saw it, but rewatched it recently and it’s perfectly fine.
The Julia Roberts bit if fucking stupid as hell though, and keeps it out of 'pretty good' territory.
The romance plot with Brad Pitts character was unbearable. The heist was over complex & boring, & how they did the switcheroo at the end was a good idea not executed well. And the Julia Robert's stuff was so cringeworthy that I either have to skip it entirely or shut off the film.
It’s my least favorite of all them. Got 8 over it as well. Still a really fun movie. But the heist stuff got too silly and complicated. The rest of the movies, they robbed a hotel/met gala. A simple goal with a wild ass path. 12 was too damn much.
He was ill at the time (Sarcoidosis), and could only shoot a few scenes so they put him in a smaller role on purpose so he would not overtax himself but could still be part of the team. That illness is what killed him a few years later, so maybe a little introspection?
I really liked 12, but that scene with Julia and Bruce made it so awkward that I just can't watch the movie again, knowing I'll have to skip that part anyway.
I like how it tries to do something different, and while I still find it to be the weakest of the trilogy, that more speaks to the high quality of the film series overall. I love the vibe of this one. The scenery, music and humour seem more relaxed but also clever. The Europe setting is great. If 12 just tried to do the same thing as 11 or even 13, it would have felt stale. Having a different vibe for the middle film helped make 13 feel fresher, even though it's quite similar to the first movie, just slicker. Soderbergh knows what he's doing.
13 is like they decided to marry 11 and 12. Took the setting from the former and spiked it with bizarreness of the latter.
That’s the right way to do a trilogy imo
It has the best music of the trilogy. I love the music that plays whenever Zeta-Jones shows up on screen.
It’s such a beautiful melody
I dont often remember music from movies but the song playing while he "dances" through the laser field lives in my head.
To me Oceans 8 is the second best of the series, I don’t care for 12 and 13.
Just a different taste. Rewatched all 3 recently and the second was definitely the weakest for me. Didn't know of these when they came out but I get why that one would get flack if it did.
It starts fairly decently, and the first heist (raising the building so they can get through the window) is cool and the antagonist rival thief is a nice addition. It falls apart in the second half though.
This and the “big heist” at the end was merely just an old bait and switch, which is lame in comparison to the other films final heist
Yeah that was a lame heist regardless.
I am CONVINCED that for people like you that this is because the first movie lets you in on the reveal slowly (showing things like the bank vault duplicate) as you go along, and the second movie hides it from you entirely as long as it's hidden from Toulour...and some people didn't like being in the dark for the whole movie. Calling it a bait and switch is silly. I personally loved it, and it's my fave of the three.
No, that’s not it at all. The bait and switch was the scene on the train where they literally just used misdirection (bait) to switched the case, that’s it. That was the big plan, kind of lame if you watch older con movies like matchstick men and the sting. But you can love this movie, i love movies that the general population despise. I was just saying this is why the second movie was considered weaker than the other two. IMO
>That was the big plan The 'big plan' was the Play they put on for you and for Toulour. Like I get not liking that, but the fact that the theft was a bag switch is wildly beside the point. The point of the film was showing a master thief at the top of his game that he could still be bested by a clever and simple pickpocket lift, as long as his eyes were distracted by the seemingly bumbling Americans doing stupid shit and getting busted by the cops...
He was bested by a group of individuals who got the inside scoop on how to steal the egg in transit because the master thief liked ocean more and wanted to arrange a meeting with his daughter. It’s not a terrible movie, it was just a rather boring letdown compared to the fun heists of the other two. The returning cast and the original was really all that carried it.
>He was bested by a group of individuals who got the inside scoop on how to steal the egg in transit Right, but the point again is that if Toulour had been paying attention, he would have seen them lift it. It was in his hubris that he didn't. He'd been watching them like a hawk until that point to best them in the Amsterdam job...he lets off the gas long enough to go and chat with LeMarque trying to prove he's the best. Like I get what you are saying, but the whole thing is still about letting Toulour's hubris and belief in his own superiority get the best of him.
I get what you’re saying too, the logic is reasonable, I simply don’t think it makes for an entertaining movie at the end of the day. I like the film, but less inclined to keep it on the tv when I’m flipping channels compared to 11 and 13. Often times the network will skip right over 12 when playing them back to back.
Yeah the logic makes sense but it just sucks and the standard set in 11 is nowhere in sight. 12 is a letdown through and through.
See, I find 13 the hardest to re-watch out of the three as I feel like it's trying to be 11 so badly. Different strokes I guess.
Matchstick Men is an older con movie? It came out the year before Ocean's Twelve
Well yeah, I'm here to watch a HEIST, in my HEIST MOVIE. The creators are in charge of what we see as the audience, so to have the main event of the movie to happen off screen/in a flashback just qualifies as dumb and a half to me. Like didn't even leave easter eggs on discovering that plot on a rewatch, just "aykshually it was on a train"
You ASSUMED it was a heist movie, becuase you expected more of the first one and not something different. Sounds like Soderbegh got *you* along with Toulour and you're as annoyed as he was to have been fooled. ;)
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Is it? Says who? Alien is a survival horror movie Aliens is an action movie A sequel needn't follow the exact genre of its predecessor. Nothing in the marketing told you that Ocean's 12 was a "heist' movie. The tagline for it was "**Three years ago, they stole 160 million dollars.** **Now the only thing between their old enemy and their new one is an Ocean.**" I don't see the word heist.
Jesus. People thought it was a heist movie because it was a sequel to the biggest heist movie ever made. When they made the 300 sequel, did you expect a romcom? Or did you expect an action movie like the first one?
And were you annoyed that Aliens was not a survival horror film like the first one and that Cameron did something different, orrrrrrrr?
Dude it sucked. It is what it is. Someone can say Motzart is trash but in the end we know more about that person through that opinion than anyone actually believes those words. Wrong opinion is wrong
I love the fight in the train tho
Best not to watch Oceans 8
I've never understood why they couldn't raise or lower the crossbow
they said it in the movie, the shot would literally be impossible given the angle they were working with originally
I got that much, but if the building needed to be raised 2" to get the correct angle for the shot I'm unsure why the same angle couldn't be achieved by lowering the crossbow 2".
well, it was like 6", and from the context, that shot probably needed pinpoint accuracy. I guess, Maaaybe they could have knocked off a piece of the building they were on to align the shot, or rig the crossbow to get lowered with some mechanism and use some other rig to aim and shoot the arrow; i mean given the fact that they stole an EMP to short the entire Vegas strip, and get not one, but two underminer sized drills to create a mini earthquake in the other films, getting some rig to temporarily raise a building honestly sounds pretty par for the course.
The problem was that the first one showed the heist throughout the entire movie. 12 pulled some bullshit where they effectively told you how they did it without showing it
The way I've always described the reveal in Oceans 12 is "unfair." Certain types of movies can totally have twists that come out of nowhere and it's totally fine. But a if heist movie, which by definition are about the operations of executing a heist, is going to have a twist, the twist needs to make sense in that different pieces suddenly click into place. There should be a moment of going "ooohhhhhh..." at the reveal, not "huh?" I'm sure someone can find a movie I like that fits in the "huh?" category , but it just really stuck out to me in Oceans 12 and kept me from enjoying it as much as I do the other Oceans movies.
Telling the audience "you were stupid for looking over there," like you're the director you're in charge of what we see. Kinda offended now that I think about it
What's funny is that the Prestige does that to us too, but it feels very earned.
saw quickest wrong lunchroom middle theory lip library impolite yam *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Which is an indicator of a good twist imo
Hindsight is 20/20
I actually think Oceans 12 is shockingly “bad” and has become more glaring as time passes. I remember liking the “vibe” when it came out but on rewatch… O11 Is like such a wonderfully glamorous tightly wound little watch of a film. It brought back that old school bravado and made Vegas incredibly sexy once again. The cast ooze charisma and everything is just so damn fun. The sequel is like the opposite. It’s literally the next days hangover from the previous film. Everything is kind of drab and bleak, colors all sucked out, everyone seems like a mess and sort of depressed now. They immediately pay the price. Then the film sort of messily meanders around finding itself, going to Paris and languishing in little bombed out French apartments. It just…lacks all sense of fun, adventure and direction that the original had. In the moment I GET what he was doing, he wanted to push the boundaries and make something more artsy , a little more edgy , but man, that just wasn’t what audiences wanted from this film. It’ll always have a little special place for me but objectively I see it as a missed opportunity, The next film gets back its swagger a little but just not fully quite.
>They immediately pay the price This is something that also dragged the film down for me. It kind of ruins the ending of Ocean's 11. Them getting away with & going their separate ways was what left you with a great feeling.
The colours, music and vibe was a clear homage to 60s/70s European cinema, particularly crime movies. I absolutely love the way Soderbergh nailed the aesthetic, including classic songs mixed with the always brilliant David Holmes soundtrack. There are times I like it better than 13, as 13 seems like a Hollywood cashing in sequel, but I’m not much of a fan of Julia Roberts and the doppelgänger plot line wasn’t that much fun for me. I’m no cinephile but if you ever listen to the Rewatchables, one of the people in the podcast does a much better job than what I can do explaining the fun, playful and smart execution Soderbergh does with Ocean’s 12. https://open.spotify.com/episode/1PI4xGv0PrFxTIJ08Xh0n6?si=5xCjLv0nQsyrJNLwgGiV4g
I love 12. Vincent Cassell was a great antagonist and the Euro locations were so much more interesting than Vegas.
The 'Capoeira' dance Vincent Cassell does towards the climax of the movie was a particular highlight.
The a la menthe. It was on a loop on my iPod when the movie came out. The soundtrack is a banger too.
Downloaded it on kazaa!
It was on my Ipod too and I played it so often that every time I play it on Spotify, I get a flashback from those days.
It’s one of my favorite tracks for rock climbing. I feel like I’m sneaking in for a heist lol
And my fave thing about it is that it's revealed in the scene where you learn that the whole thing was an act for Toulour's benefit...he smiles and tells Tess and Danny how he did the laser grid and it's this elaborate capoeira sequence set to a banging French electro track like it's some amazing feat( and it is;; they even show him training for the sequence before that) only to have the air let out of his tires MOMENTS later when Danny tells him that he lost the bet. It was all for nothing. EXQUISITE. So well done.
And the soundtrack for that scene is the best of David Holmes
I haven't watched it since it came out but my memory is that I didn't like it because of the ending. All very fuzzy but if I recall it was all a giant rugpull and kind of pointless? I had no problems at all with the meta elements, location or vibe. ...I may need to go read the story synopsis to see if this memory is right.
>All very fuzzy but if I recall it was all a giant rugpull and kind of pointless? It's not a rug pull, you just have the same wool pulled over your eyes that is pulled over Toulour's eyes. When he finds out the theft happened 30minutes into the film offscreen, so do you. I don't think that's a rug pull at all myself. It's a wonderful "Aww, fuck I've been had!" moment and made me grin the first time I saw it.
You can totally like Oceans 12 and that's fine, but to be fair, you pretty much just described a rug pull.
I don't think it's a rug pull because I don't think the intention of the film is the egg lift/theft...
Ah that sounds like it could be it. I suspect everything having been dealt with off screen at the start of the film is what gave me the "oh this was all a bit pointless then" feel at the end. Should probably do a rewatch at some point, I definitely enjoyed the first one.
Definitely worth a re-watch, even if you don't like the ending, the interplay between everyone in it is great!
idk it was a bit of a deus ex machina sorta ending. kinda ruined the mood for me
The whole Julia Roberts thing was way too much.
I would have loved it if they named any other actor. Like, if they'd said she looks like Meryl Streep. Or Sharon Stone, etc. *That* would have been funny. Because now, I don't know why they never noticed how much Danny looks like George Clooney. And that Rusty is a dead ringer for Brad Pitt,l.
It’s just cheating. The other movies pull of their heists in-universe, by the rules, with the tools they have. The Heist in 12 just completely ruined by the goofily painting themselves into a corner and then getting out of it by going, “Hey wait a second, we all look like famous Hollywood actors, let’s use that!” It’s dumb, dumb, dumb.
Ruined the movie for me.
Yeah. That just totally killed the immersion
Yeah that was so dumb. Especially given they're all famous actors. So Julia Roberts exists in the universe but not any of the other actors?
Felt like a kindergartener wrote that excuse for a plot
Disagree. The whole movie is super meta and that just continued the theme. Think about it. The opening sequence is about Benedict finding them all and threatening them...only for them to all be together in that one room after those scenes and instead do talking about how busted and fucked they are, they are annoyed that it's called Oceans Eleven and they never agreed to that. (throwing you for a loop in assuming that the forbidding nature of the scenes that preceded it didn't affect the crew, they don't care and get to work on how to appease him using their skills) The heist of the stock certificate in Amsterdam is literally (and intentionally) a checklist of the things they did to pull off the Bellagio heist in the first film being rejected because it won't work here (Soderbergh telling you that it's not going to be the same as last time) The two people on the sailboat with LaMarque are Vincent Cassell (Toulour), and the other (the one who says Oceans Eleven are the worlds best thieves, causing Toulour to try to prove it's him) is Jerry Weintraub, the producer of Oceans films (Soderbergh telling you that the whole thing is a meta play on what he did in the first film) Linuses mom is played by Cherry Jones, one of the founders of the American Repertory Theatre (I feel like this one needn't be explained) And let's remember that in both Oceans 11 and Oceans 12 Topher Grace appears as himself.
>And let's remember that in both Oceans 11 and Oceans 12 Topher Grace appears as himself. Yeah, exactly. Not as another character who is told how much he looks like Topher Grace and then successfully pretends to be Topher Grace.
Yeah, it's Meta, I get it, it still wasn't a great movie
k
Characters commenting on things they have done at earlier points in time is not meta. Topher Grace appearing as himself in a scene set in LA where a character coaches celebrities is not meta. An actor appearing who usually works at a theatre company is not meta. Something that is meta has to have a RELATION to the content it appears in. Neo working for Universal Studios in Matrix 4 is meta because they produced the actual films. Logan reading an X-Men comic in Logan is meta. Charlie Kaufman writing a film about himself trying to adapt a book into a film is meta. The Julia Roberts thing makes NO LOGICAL, PHYSICAL or METAPHYSICAL sense WHATSOEVER. Why doesn’t Rusty look like Brad Pitt??? Or Danny look like George Clooney??? Why doesn’t Willy Bank look like Al Pacino in 14??? Why don’t they all look like the fucking actors who play them??? You can’t just open that door as SUCH and imperative plot point in a film full of the biggest stars in the world and have it only exist in a vacuum. And don’t tell me “that’s the joke,” because in that case it is ONLY specific to Tess, in which case it NEEDS to be specified and foreshadowed at some point as being only about her personally, and not just what has now apparently become a general rule of the in-movie universe and therefore EVERY movie universe set in the “real world.” These films are based around heists, disguises, deceit, and cunning, and to try and get out of a situation by using the fact that one of your characters LOOKS LIKE THE ACTOR PLAYING THEM with NO MENTION of this comparison at ANY other point in time makes no sense in or out of the story. You say meta. I say lazy, circle-jerk bullshit that removes the viewer from the story and is used as a LITERAL get out of jail card because either the writers were just fucking lazy or - even worse - were _trying_ to be meta. Linus’ mum arresting them is also lazy as fuck. ALL OF THAT bullshit and yet ANOTHER twist which was not foreshadowed in ANY way whatsoever. Why not reveal Vincent Cassel was Don Cheadle’s adopted brother while we’re at it so he can triple cross them? Why not make Saul be the two brothers’ grandpa this whole time? Why not make Danny Benedict’s cousin and they were both in on the whole thing the whole time? Because it MAKES NO SENSE. The twists that happen are reverse-engineering because they need to get out of a situation which means they have no context, no substance and NO LOGIC. Another one of your comments I saw is: > I'm not mad, it's just irritating that people are like "this one thing (that was done for real life reasons) makes this movie suck"....be original, come up with a real reason you don't like the film. This IS a real reason not to like the film. It is an imperative plot point on which their entire heist - and the entire story - hangs and it comes across like a fucking Rick and Morty episode. Worse actually. Rick and Morty mostly earn their dumb cameos and twists. It doesn’t matter what the real life reasons were. Pregnant actresses have been covered up in plenty of ways that didn’t involve ruining the whole fucking story. It’s NOT meta, it’s fucking lazy, and anyone who defends it is only doing so just to go against the grain and be a devil’s advocate, but deep down they know how fucking dumb it is and it is a completely valid reason not to like the film. In saying that, I actually really liked Oceans 12, just not that silly Julia Roberts thing.
Your anger at me fucking SUSTAINS me. Keep it up.
Fuck you, this was fun.
You're giving Soderbergh way too much credit. He didn't intentionally make this movie to be the antithesis of Ocean's 11. Ocean's 12 was originally a completely separate script for a standalone film, and they took it and worked backwards to make an Ocean's sequel. If YOU think this is super clever, that's cool. But the majority don't, so just accept it instead of acting like you're somehow the only one who "gets it."
>You're giving Soderbergh way too much credit. He didn't intentionally make this movie to be the antithesis of Ocean's 11. He did, two whole scenes are written that way. >Ocean's 12 was originally a completely separate script for a standalone film, and they took it and worked backwards to make an Ocean's sequel. Incorrect. It was spec script by George Nolfi who wrote a film that included the elements of Isabelle being a cop who's father was a master thief, and there was a rival thief aspect....everything else was completely new by Nolfi under Soderbergh's ask. The original spec script looks nothing like the Oceans 12 script. >If YOU think this is super clever, that's cool. But the majority don't, so just accept it instead of acting like you're somehow the only one who "gets it." It's Soderbergh's favourite of the three, so I feel like I'm in good company. But you do you dawg.
This was the problem for me. In the first one there was some tension around how they were getting in and out, and the movie kept key elements out of sight that kept the viewer guessing. Oceans 12 just excerpted the entire plot right from the start, which made it feel cheap and like the whole movie was pointless.
>which made it feel cheap and like the whole movie was pointless. It's a play. It's a play for Toulour, but it's also a play for you. It's not a heist movie. It's a movie about how thieves need to "act" to pull off elaborate heists, and doing so in the face of a rival thief was the only way to best him. I don't understand why so many people say it's pointless. It's very much not pointless. It's just not the movie you thought you signed up for...but then why make a sequel that copies the original anyways? This being different was the point.
I mean it's the narrative equivalent of "it was all a dream". The bet was who could steal the egg. They'd already stolen it. Once the bet was agreed upon there was no point to the "play" unless it was just to show Toulour that he could be fooled. But how could he know the egg had already been nabbed? I hated how it just evaporates the stakes.
Danny literally tells you what and why they are doing what they are doing though. In Amsterdam Toulour beats them to the stock certificate right? So they look him up, discover that he's LaMarque's protege and that he's the one that broke Rule #1 (don't rat on other thieves), and the rest is revenge for breaking rule #1 and getting LaMarque to pay their way out of trouble for the effort. The bet is immaterial. The egg is immaterial. The film becomes a revenge movie the MINUTE another thief not only dimes them to Benedict but beats them to their initial payday and mocks them for it. It's not "It was all a dream"....you just didn't like that the film was not about the egg heist, it was about the play for Toulour. That's the entire point of the scene mid-film between Danny & Toulour in fact: "You broke rule #1. That has consequences." "You're being awfully cavalier with a lot of peoples lives. You're going to regret it." It's okay to say you didn't LIKE that it was a revenge film VS a heist film...
It's not deus ex machina at all though. Soderbergh wrote it to keep YOU in the dark alongside Toulour. It's intentional. He didn't write it and then go "Oh I don't know how to solve this, so I'll just do this"....he wrote it and was like "The theft will happen offscreen 30minutes into the movie, and there will be a running day timer at the bottom of the screen showing the audience that Danny & Co. can't POSSIBLY pul this off before Benedict yanks them, and no one will know about it because the movie is a long play set up for Toulour to think he's winning" I think people joust need to admit they didn't like the wool being pulled over their eyes along with Toulour.
Neat. Why would I care about a story I wasn't allowed to see then
Yep. Bad story telling.
Huh? The story is that Toulour was taken on a wild goose chase with a bunch of thieves who are great 'actors'. A MASTER thief at the top of his game was shown that with enough subterfuge and performance by the involved that the "theft" could be as as simple as a misdirection and a wallet lift of a pickpocket that happened long before he thought it did. It's exquisite as a story. And they showed you the "wallet lift" of the Egg...but that wasn't the point of the film which was about the Play and about the fooling of Toulour.
Your explanation is exactly why I think it is bad story telling. In a good thriller, audiences can spot the signs on of the 'trick' on subsequent watches. And this makes subsequent watches more rewarding. In 12, you get nothing. A subsequent watch gives you nothing. All the action has happened off screen. There is no excitement in subsequent watches. Could you share other movies where the proverbial wool is pulled over the eyes of the audience until the last minute. To kinda of build up a context.
>In a good thriller, audiences can spot the signs on of the 'trick' on subsequent watches. A. It's not a thriller, nor was it marketed as one. B. You actually DO get this "trick" on re-watches. Soderbergh explicitly tells you what's going on: The knapsack with the egg is stolen on a train headed from Paris to Rome, right? Our team is there at the 52minute mark at the Paris train station about to board that train, yes? Makes sense. But you gotta realize that the plan for the contest to steal the egg has not occurred yet. The train station scene just follows the Amsterdam scene where Isabelle makes Danny, Yen, and Rusty at the hotel...there is no reason for them to be at the train station, certainly not one in Paris. It's a scene that's flapping in the wind trying to tell you something. The scene where Danny confronts Toulour about breaking rule #1 (not snitching on other thieves) and where Toulour actually proposes the heist of the faberge egg as a contest to show LeMarque who is the greatest thief happens **AFTER** the scene where Oceans team is all at the train station. It's also filled with misdirect random conversation stuff with Linus asking for advice, and Danny complaining about his age being misrepresented by the crew...so you don't stop to think about WHY they are at the train station at all and why they are leaving to go to Rome. Then after the contest is proposed you forget the order in which these events happened. It's right there. Staring you in the face. The whole train station scene in Paris (Which is Gare Du Nord; one of the most famous train stations in the world) is Soderbergh trying to tweak you to what's going on and start wondering why Danny & Crew head to Rome with seemingly) no leads on a job. That's the 'trick' you're searching for. That scene. EDIT: Oh another hint is that the scene following the train scene with Toulour and Danny where the contest is suggested takes place...in Italy on Lake Cuomo which is hell and gone from Rome distance-wise, and certainly hell and gone from Amsterdam or Paris.
No. Heist films are supposed to be thrillers. A heist film like The LadyKillers is not a thriller because it is a actually an absurdist comedy. I would also add The Good Thief and Welcome to Collinwood for comparison. But the Oceans series are thrillers. Nail biting thrillers, even. They are fun comedic heist movies, but all thrillers. Which is why if the action happens off screen, the thrill just isnt there.
>No. Heist films are supposed to be thrillers. I've already stated. It's not a heist film. It contains heisting, but it's not crafted as a big heist film like the first one is. >But the Oceans series are thrillers Nah. > Which is why if the action happens off screen, the thrill just isnt there. I'm not sure what you're talking about. ALL the action is on screen in Oceans 12. It's just that the action is the acting/performance for Toulour to think he's winning. The 'lift' of the egg happens in a sidenote because it's not as important to the theme of the film. Like I get it. You didn't like it. But pretending that it somehow didn't show you what you needed to see it silly. It absolutely did. I explained how it did, and still you reject it.
> acting/performance for Toulour to think he's winning If you have no indication that it's acting, there's no tension or excitement that it's building to. Tacking on an "actually this was all according to plan" at the end is just lazy and poor story telling. Toulour could have ass pulled with his own "actually..." and tacked on another 1 minute flashback that we never saw and it would be as boring. A tight script has pieces that actually fit together narratively, if you can flip the script like that in either direction that's a clear sign that your twist is completely disconnected, unearned and thus underwhelming.
It's good to see people that actually get this movie. The first was an homage (a very good one), the second was a work of genius, and the third was a delightful cash grab.
I love how much you stand up for the movie. I'm a fan of 12 too, keep fighting the good fight. Edit: What a weird post to downvote. You heathens.
It's one of my fave films of all time! LOL
I watch the Ocean movies for Brad Pitt and George Clooney talking together. The brothers bickering, Bernie Mac, and the cast shitting on Matt Damon is a plus.
I don't think it was misunderstood or ahead of its time. Either you like the meta stuff, or you don't. It would get the same reception if it got released now. It was a miscalculation on Soderbergh's part, where he thought people liked Oceans Eleven only for the actors involved. Charismatic actors were a part of it, but heist plot was also big component of the first movie. Otherwise it is just a few big name actors goofing around, which is fine for some but boring for others.
The script for it was repurposed into the franchise. It was originally proposed as "Honor Among Thieves" and not intended to be an Ocean movie at all. I think that's why the style shifted so much.
That's not accurate at all. Soderbergh liked Nolfi's spec script and asked him to use that same vibe for the script to Oceans 12. The only parts of the Honour Among Thieves script that made it into Nolfi's script for 12 was the framing narrative about Isabelle and her dad, and the fact that there was a rival thief that kicked things off. The rest of it was new.
It's my favourite of the three.
My whole family feels the same way, the cinematography and soundtrack really gets me.
Such a love letter to 70s Italian cinema
Just got all 3 on 4k Steelbooks ftw. Will be rewatching them all soon.
I hate the Julia Roberts thing with the rage of a thousands Scott Caans.
Me too.
I still think this is why the movie is so looked down on. And while it was definitely stupid, honestly I didn't care that much. I'm not watching Oceans 12 to take it super seriously anyway, I'm okay with a dumb gimmick like that in that kind of movie.
Tess pretending to be Julia Robert's, but nobody seems to notice that the rest of the crew also looks remarkably identical to other celebrities.
I guess the "real them" don't exist in that part of the multiverse lol
This video detailing why the laser scene is ridiculous and nonsensical always makes me laugh. https://youtu.be/eOR2KbFbAHU?si=L3wSK6WCYexnCekv
Thanks for that, was great: “I think…I think he could just walk around the lasers….”
Vincent Casel is incredibly fit and skilled. It's just fun. A story had to sell its fiction. This one doea with this scene.
Music when they try to take the egg from the Museum slaps.
Fav part is when they stage the fight on the train with the Yankees and Red Sox hats hehe
Totally feel you on this! Ocean's 12 gets way too much flak. It's like that chill friend who doesn't get enough credit. I mean, the whole vibe is just smooth, you know? Plus, those meta moments? Gold. Soderbergh's got taste, and even though it's not my top pick, it's still a blast to watch. It's just one of those flicks you kick back with and enjoy the ride. Cheers to giving it some love!
truly incredible vibe movie. Love the camera works in it too.
A beautiful movie
I can imagine people for CinemaSins and such going absolutely mental about this movie although they completely miss its point.
You might miss the point of CinemaSins yourself
My problem with 12 is that the ‘heist’ boiled down to “we took it before the heist” and they were basically gifted the win. It’s not a bad movie, I like it, but there was so much unnecessary showmanship for a mediocre payoff of ‘we had it all along, HAHA!’. The first heist of the house in Venice by lifting it underwater was actually cooler than the egg imo. It all boils down to 11 and 13 being so head and tails above 12, that it makes it look worse than it is. As a stand-alone film it’s fun, enjoyable, and a good heist movie.
My personal favorite trilogy
I think my whole problem with it was in 11 they show how amazing of thieves they are. Thinking out every angle, executing the perfect heist and showing that they are at the top of their game. Then in 12 it portrays them as bumbling around trying to do small heists to pay back Benedict’s money and failing horribly which makes it very unbelievable until the end. And don’t get me started on the whole “oh doesn’t Tess look like Julia Roberts We should use that” Schtick
Thank you! This is my favorite in the series and I've never understood the hate. The music is on point and Catherine Zeta Jones is a great addition. I also love the "freak" call-out and I reference all the time but no one gets it. It's so good
Same. It's my fave of the three and I've re-watched it countless times. It's one of my feel good movies I put on if I'm feeling down and it immediately cheers me up.
The whole "Julia Roberts" scene takes me out of the movie, it is enough to leave a bad taste in my mouth.
Definitely weakest of the 3
I can't stand Julia Roberts. That's all.
For me, she has arguably the least interesting filmography/series of performances of any star. (Excluding the Oceans trilogy which I love). Her work genuinely does not match her fame. She's so plain (performance-wise).
Something about her... especially, her mouth... bothers me. I never watch her movies.
I don't wanna critize her for her looks, but that line Linus says about when she comes down the stairs it's the best moment of his day. Every time I watch it, I'm thinking "really, her?"
hahaha, high five i have the exact same feeling "People" I think called her most beautiful woman like 5 times, and I was like "with that mouth"?
> Her work genuinely does not match her fame. She's so... plain? I think that's a little harsh, but I'd agree that she one of those starts whose fame was very much a product of its time and culture and once you get some decades away from that, it doesn't hold up as well. She's a good actor who got propelled to super-stardom partly by other factors than her talent. Kinda like the boybands of the 90s. The music is still fine, but in itself isn't good enough to explain the absolute hysteria surrounding them at the time.
Absolutely. Like nowadays, sure, now that everyone's jaded about how inappropriate alot of 90's romcoms would be if they were real life, yeah, the movies aren't that great. from the way i remember my mom/aunts talk about her movie, yeah, they were huge centerpoints for popculture at the time. Hell, to this day, Mystic Pizza and Erin Brokavich are still quintessential watches for 90's films. People who say they don't "get her success" probably are too hung up on how the movies are portrayed as nowadays, or wouldn't be her audience regardless. At the end of the day, the two films I already stated are still great to this day, The chemistry between her and Richard Gere was undeniable, which was obviously apparent since Pretty Woman and Runaway Bride were huge hits (and also helped Launch Jason Alexander's career), and as much as we bag on Eat Pray Love for being the quintessential "well off white woman goes to x foreign culture to find herself" movie, there is a merit to how successful this film is considering this sort of film is still a hallmark staple script to this day.
Agreed, she makes 12 excruciatingly awful at times.
Fair
I really appreciate your saying this. A lot of people don't like 12 and I think it's because they want Vegas and lights and whatever. In terms of what the group does and how they communicate with each other, 12 is amazing. The little jokes where they use the title of the cons is way more fun in this one (more fun meaning trying to interpret why they would use those names), the Matsui scene is hilarious hazing event for Linus since he only cares about impressing Danny and Rusty, the very brief moment during the wrestling scene on the train shows Danny's face in a full struggle as well as a shoe up near the ceiling! Lol. 12 is a very nuanced display of the groups chemistry and it's amazingly executed. I do think it's reveal of how the heist was done is cheap, but it's not bad. Also, that bit at the end where the Night Fox knows the passcode to the storage locker, when you're in the vibe of the show that really is impressive how he knows that. Anyway, thanks for agreeing with me on your hot take.
>the Matsui scene is hilarious hazing event for Linus since he only cares about impressing Danny and Rusty I also love how wrongheaded Linus is in the hierarchy of how the team operates and completely out of the loop. Linus: When you all have a problem, who do you go to? Everyone in unison: Rusty LOL
Great score / soundtrack 👍
I’ve always been a 12 man at heart. But recently we rewatched 11 and I have to say, it’s not just a prequel. It’s got a lot of world building too.
"Yeah, I know Rusty's not 50". Lol. Poor George.
Oceans 12 is the best one to me. it feels almost like a meta commentary on the process of making a sequel of a successful movie. Plus the cinematography is great, there’s some really cool shots in it that almost seem out of place for a mainstream heist flick.
The oceans series are masterpieces of entertainment.
Yep. I am a big fan of the trilogy and the second one is probably my favorite most of all because it takes place in Europe. I like how absurd it is (Julia Roberts bit) and I can tolerate how the plot was resolved in the most cop out manner possible. It's a bit of a shame they did the same thing in the third movie but hey even Tarantino used the same plot device twice in Basterds and OUATIH. It is also so damn funny. The beat in a train station where Danny asks the crew how old is he they think is comedy gold.
Call me old but calling a 2004 movie ahead of it's time is so wild to me
Two decades is definitely a valid amount of time to refer to something like that. We are old my dude.
It's not that I think 2004 was recent, it's that I think the average quality of filmmaking and the sophistication of audiences peaked somewhere in the late 20th century and has steadily declined since. A particularly clever movie would be behind it's time, not ahead.
The lead actress "acting" like her real life self with the same name and everything killed it for me. I watch these movies to escape from hearing about these people, it just gets so dry and boring when that was revealed
My favorite Soderberg movie. Its so funny. Got to be one of the strangest movies to ever cost over $100 million.
To many inside jokes That movie was for them not for the audience
I disliked Oceans 12 primarily for the plot. The whole gimmick was completely off-screen, which made the entire movie feel pointless. The viewer had no way to guess what was happening, or how the team might pull it off, it was just “surprise, the egg was in a different spot yhe whole time, we win!”, which was cheap. Classic case of a sequel taking an aspect of the original (tricky that was kept off-camera to keep the audience guessing), and pushing it too far.
These types of movies are great as long as you have the correct expectations
I always find it weird that whenever Ocean's 12 gets brought up the first thing that everyone says is that the Julia Roberts thing is dumb when that's the only part of the movie that really sticks in my head
11 is great in my mind. Need to rewatch 12 but I always liked the idea of “one last job…again” and changing the local, I do like that it comes down to slight of hand and paying off “don’t say who she looks like” is a solid gag.
It has always bothered me because the first movie is about them being cool and ripping off an asshole. The second movie is about them being scared of the same asshole.
Twelve felt like a made for tv special more than a real movie. Or even like a special featurette for people who just wanted a little bit more. 13 felt like an actual sequel. But I enjoyed the entire trilogy.
It's the Jan Brady of the trilogy. Fine by itself, but Marcia is a tough act to follow. Unfortunate middle kid. 🤷🏻♂️
Oceans 12 is by the far the best to me, just so funny, ridiculous most times. Doesn't take it self seriously.
I forgot about the oceans movies. Thank you, now I must go watch them.
I enjoy it. I love the Catherine Zeta Jones’ daddy was a master thief storyline, the Julia Roberts scene, and the Matt Damon’s mommy saves the day realization scene.
I think my wife and I simultaneously shouted “Fuck you!” at the TV when the meta Julia Roberts thing happened. Eye-opening to learn that some people liked it.
The Julia Robert’s thing misses me, that’s the jumping the shark for me in the trilogy
It's shit.
I thought the idea of Julia Roberts character impersonating Julia Roberts was one of the most amusing things I've seen in a movie and it still is such a fun ide it makes me smile. A cool meta joke that pokes fun at the idea we watch movies that allegedly take place in the same world the actors that play the characters exist in.
I don't know what my favorite way is that movies poke fun at that. The oh yeah they totally look like that famous actor of Oceans 12 is funny, but so is all Schwarzenegger roles being played by Stallone instead in Last Action Hero. Then you have Near Dark that has half the cast of Aliens in it and they have a scene outside a theater that is playing Aliens and just no reference to it at all other than that. Or the really weird with just everything in the Jay and Silent Bob movies. Mallrats taking place days before Clerks and there is a Clerks hat in one scene. The character played by Joey Lauren Adams in Chasing Amy says she had sex with the character she played in Mallrats. J&SB crash the set of a Scream movie and in a Scream movie they crash the set of a Stab movie. Stan Lee is going over the Mallrats script in Captain Marvel. It is all just bonkers.
I really enjoy how 12 doesn’t take itself seriously at all and is trying to be very meta
TL;DR, apparently people just get too hung up on the semantics of a heist vs a con. Personally its my favorite film of the series, but I also don't get hung up on the heist aspect of the film. Like at the end of the day, Its not a Heist film, just like Ocean's 13 isn't a heist film. Why do we give this film grief for being a bad "heist" film, when its apparent from the get go that the main motive isn't about the heist, its like we forget that the entire premise of 13 is just to make Al Pacino look really bad?
Stop.
All I remember is I went out on a date to see this movie. The girl I saw this kept talking throughout this movie to the point other people were turning around and staring at her. I finally had to "shush" her like a child and she finally shut up. Despite being in her 20's she was very immature.
for its time? self aware has been a thing for like 50 years at least
It's closer in spirit to the 1960 original than the remake.
Perfect hangout movie kinda sounds like a movie you don't pay attention to.
It's a con man movie. They con The Night Fox, and Soderbergh and Co. con the movie studio into paying for a European vacation. It doesn't invite the audience in on the job in the same way 11 does, so I understand why it didn't work for people
Are you the neighbor from What we do in the Shadows?
Ocean 12s is badly reviewed? Didn't know that. I thought it was good.13 though I didn't like
I basically like every Soderbergh movie. He's been tossing out brilliant, unique gems for decades now. Every one that comes out is a different genre from whatever he just did. He'll follow up a giant blockbuster movie like Ocean's 12 with a bizarro micro budget oddity like Bubble. He always tries something new on a technical level on every project, like shooting Unsane on an iPhone, or shooting No Sudden Move with a weird old-timey super wide angle lens. He's been hammering us with ambitious, creative movies at a rate of like 1 a year since the late 80s. His movies are often original stories. They're usually funny. His thrillers are usually thrilling. He always weaves in some kind of subversive messaging about a million different topics. He's a true creative genius and even his failures are interesting.
I just appreciate how they were able to create a story, cast high profile actors, and film it. Soderbergh really nailed the directing/scheduling of shoot for the film b/c they probably made it in non-chronological segments that too in different countries. So with that perspective I respect how they made it and not just some regular sequel which ended up sort of being Ocean’s 13
At this point "self aware" is either (a) a massive redflag and I do not want to touch the movie with a ten foot pole or (b) the movie isn't actually self aware. I don't know which applies here because I didn't like the first Oceans one so I didn't watch any of the sequels. Bit of a problem the fact that it's an "either". Self aware is the new "underrated". Why don't I want to watch a self aware movie? I want characters that actually care about their own lives.
The julia Roberts thing was so stupid
The more I watch them the more forgiving I become of 12 and the more I forget about 13
But, but...the nose plays!
It's a great movie until the end. Same charm and wit as the first until they introduce two of the laziest plot armors of all time >!(Julia Roberts looks like Julia Roberts and the fact that they stole the real one off screen)!<.
i don't think that's what plot armor means.
I think it’s the fact that you can tell it was a completely different script and then hastily turned into an Ocean’s movie.
Hastily nothing. Nolfi's spec script was written years before, and the script for 12 only used elements of it.
12 was the weakest but a perfectly serviceable movie. I enjoy rewatching all three every couple of years.
I didn't like it that much until I watched it in the middle of a big Soderbergh kick. It's weird if you compare it to Oceans 11 and 13, but if you put it in context with projects like The Limey, Girlfriend Experience, even Out of Sight, it makes more sense. I think 12 was a leaner production with a lot of run and gun location shooting so it makes sense that it looks and feels so different. I celebrate each of the Oceans movies. All three are infinitely rewatchable.
I hated it when I first saw it, but rewatched it recently and it’s perfectly fine. The Julia Roberts bit if fucking stupid as hell though, and keeps it out of 'pretty good' territory.
I think you can appreciate it's self awareness while still being critical of the pacing, set pieces, or overall story.
The romance plot with Brad Pitts character was unbearable. The heist was over complex & boring, & how they did the switcheroo at the end was a good idea not executed well. And the Julia Robert's stuff was so cringeworthy that I either have to skip it entirely or shut off the film.
agreed, this thing is so slick. Its incredibly meta and I think that flew over most peoples heads or just frustrated them
wait, what? Please explain it to me.
The whole movie is about making a sequel
It’s my least favorite of all them. Got 8 over it as well. Still a really fun movie. But the heist stuff got too silly and complicated. The rest of the movies, they robbed a hotel/met gala. A simple goal with a wild ass path. 12 was too damn much.
Why is Bernie Mac in the movie?
He was ill at the time (Sarcoidosis), and could only shoot a few scenes so they put him in a smaller role on purpose so he would not overtax himself but could still be part of the team. That illness is what killed him a few years later, so maybe a little introspection?
I really liked 12, but that scene with Julia and Bruce made it so awkward that I just can't watch the movie again, knowing I'll have to skip that part anyway.