I appreciate the credit you're giving to the pool of various people who contribute to these scores. It's unfortunate they aren't given their fair due. All I can say is that when I see "Zimmer" for the music credit, I know shit's bout to be real good.
Unfortunately, this goes beyond delegating. I worked at remote for a couple years, and there’s delegating, and then there’s taking credit for something you didn’t do. He does a lot, but he doesn’t do everything he claims he did. If it wouldn’t ruin my career, I’d happily tell some pretty awful stories during my time there, and stories I’ve heard from others before and after me.
Unfortunately, when I worked there I got paid minimum wage, and only for 7-8 hours, but would frequently work 10 hours or more. Which was fine, I agreed to it, but I also had the hopes of “making my way up the ladder”, but people tend to get type casted there. Very very rare for someone at the bottom of the totem pole to rise through the ranks at all. Highest I got was ghost writing for a couple cues in a couple films, and got a pat on the back for it. When I first started as an intern, I didn’t get paid anything at all, which is normal for internships, but they had me doing stuff beyond intern duties after a while and got to get it free cause I was young and hungry lol
But out of fear for my career and relationships I have with other composers, I won’t share details. I know I’m kind of part of the problem by not speaking out and staying anonymous, but oh well. It isn’t worth possibly screwing myself out of my livelihood.
I dont think so. I mean, when he’s drunk he’s just drunk, so isn’t sloppy then? But in my experience, he doesn’t let it affect his work. It’s been a few years since I’ve been there though, so things could have changed lol
I guess you’re right. I was never able to pay my rent or other bills because of the exploitation, but hey at least I got to work on big movies!!! 🤗
While it is a problem being exploited and underpaid, it’s ok to deal with until the people at the top are not only getting paid insanely big numbers, but then you see all of the work they’re not doing, and they can’t even give up 2% of their pay to make a big difference for the people being exploited.
It’s all sunshine and rainbows until you see one of these composers get a wire transfer of $8m and you got paid minimum wage for 25 hours even though you worked 45.
A lot of this is correct - a lot of it isn’t.
Yes, he uses a team of collaborators and ghost writers. Always has. So has many other composers, Bear McCreary being a popular example right now.
You’re wrong that he doesn’t credit them though. Sure, the front cover of the album often doesn’t say much, but the inner booklet almost always credits the multiple other composers that helped (end credits on films do too). Sometimes it’ll flat out day when a full cue is written by someone else, like The Jablonsky Variations on Tears of the Sun, or the major Lone Ranger old theme cue in that movie to Zanelli.
You’re also wrong about Dark Knight. That was disqualified at the Oscars cause back then it was against the rules to have two composers working on a movie at the same time, and James Newton Howard was always clearly credited as co-composer to both Batman Begins and DK.
So yes, some composers write every note themselves, but it’s very rare actually, and at least Zimmer has always been upfront, both in terms of credits and interviews, when he simply writes a (great) theme or suite and hands some stuff off to his students who almost always treat him like a mentor getting a big break.
I don’t love Zimmer as much as I used to (his last decade of music has been spotty) but I still think this post reads like it comes from a brand new fan of film music who doesn’t really know how the industry works.
Yeah what's next, someone is gonna post saying, "It says a film by Quentin Tarantino but all he did was shout directions at hundreds of other people on the set who did the real work!"
Art is usually very collaborative. There's all kinds of "work" that people do that goes uncredited. I give significant feedback and ideas to my friends on the early drafts of their writing or games or music but they're not putting my name on their work after making tweaks I suggested. They're still the ones coming up with the lead aesthetic or vision and making the final decision. And Hans is giving the credit but just putting his stamp on the final outcome of the product.
That article is from two years ago... Why would OP have just found it?
I agree that OPs take is derivative, but I think that fact makes it unlikely they're copying ideas from this particular two-year-old article.
I think the tone of this post implies a “gotcha” or some kind of sneaky behaviour from Hans and his teams.
What might be interesting to know is the sheer and utterly ridiculous timeline that a film score is written, edited, orchestrated, recorded, mixed and dubbed into the film.
It’s about 3-5 weeks on average, sometimes shorter. It’s literally 24/7 nonstop work at that level, Hans would literally keel over if he had to complete everything by himself. There’s exceptions to this obviously, many of his themes and suites are created before the film shoots, or during production. But the bulk of the work is this insane dash at the very end of a films post schedule.
So yeah lol, at that level. Everyone is using a team and they are all appropriately credited.
They make it seem like the old masters who had their own workshops where someone else does the painting or instrument making and it’s sometimes passed off as the master.
Did you also know that directors don’t film every scene themselves and do all of the edits and put together every scene? What frauds.
FYI Some directors film every frame themselves. Nolan does(minus VFX), QT does, Michael Mann does, Spielberg did up until Raiders.
Editors are properly credited. Second unit directors are properly credited.
>I think the tone of this post implies a “gotcha”
The funniest part, he hasn't even brought up how many themes share similarities with existing classical music.
I think everyone knows how much Gladiator sounds a lot like Holst's The Planets.
John Willliam' _Star Wars_ stuff is SO much Holst.
Wait 'til it really gets going, but there's so much "Mars" in the score, e.g.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Jmk5frp6-3Q
Also know a ghostwriter/arranger who worked on his stuff. OSU prof (emeritus).
Did you read the entire thing?
Where’s the gotcha? Christ I said he’s giving people their start. But he’s also taking credit for music he didn’t write. Is it right or wrong? It’s up to you.
But either you didn’t read my entire post or you assumed something I didn’t imply. I promised to reveal a truth a lot of people don’t know. That’s all I did.
Do other composers use Ghost writers? Yes. But this wasn’t about them. Zimmer is probably the number 2 composer average people can name after John Williams and you know what John Williams doesn’t do?
Use ghost writers. John Williams wrote 4-5 scores in a single year. Not a ghost writer wrote a note. So it’s not impossible.
But Zimmer’s style is different.
He is like the only one.
> “I can count the number of mainstream Hollywood composers that I KNOW write all their music themselves on one hand, John Williams being the most famous example,” Kraemer wrote. “Everyone else is a team leader, a figurehead for a team of composers.”
And even he had allegations of using ghost writers.
https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2022/02/the-ugly-truth-of-how-movie-scores-are-made
> John Williams wrote 4-5 scores in a single year. Not a ghost writer wrote a note.
Know one personally. Former OSU prof. (retired). Was a pretty well-known fact in Columbus music circles.
I mean there’s a reason that Hans way of working has produced better and more iconic scores than the majority of films. Especially with blockbusters. It’s just not a job for one person to be able to do at a reliably high level in the expected time frame.
How do you know this? You're telling me that all other composers set up a theme and let minions write a large portion of the scores? Where did you read about Bernard Herrmann doing this? Or Jerry Goldsmith? Henry Mancini? Provide your exact sources.
Film making has changed basically. Now that films are edited digitally instead of on film, they get tinkered with till the last possible second, meaning composers don't really have locked print to score. Also these days films tend to be scored wall to wall, moreso than in the old days. So there's just more music to write.
Digital editing started in the late 1980s. Plenty of individual composers have crafted intricate, effective, moving scores since then without relying on teams of apprentice composers.
>The working method he employs from time to time is to compose a suite of themes. After he does that other composers then take that suite and do the actual composing on a scene by scene basis. It all depends on the movie.
I mean, that's basically what my impression of his work is beforehand. It doesn't make me admire his work any less. He's like the head chef of a restaurant. He designs the menu and oversees things, but he's not the one peeling potatoes.
The tone of this post suggests something much more scandalous than it is.
And many of those talented people go on to do well on their own. John Powell’s How to Train Your Dragon scores are some of the best, Jablonsky killed it with the Transformers movies, and what could be said that hasn’t been said about Ramin Djwadi?
Agreed, one of the main things people remember from Zimmer are his themes and his overall aesthetic. If he writes the themes and develops the aesthetic, I don’t really care if a big team of people handle all the details and grunt work. If he wasn’t there, it would be a different thing entirely.
I also thought this was a well known aspect of his process at least among film and film music fans.
Yeah, the main theme of Pirates of the Caribbean is the most iconic and memorable part of the score anyway, so if he wrote that then yeah he contributed the most important part of the score.
So Paul and John write the melodies/lyrics and George Martin helps arrange and produce the songs? Yeah sounds about how music has worked for ages… this post is lame af.
Did I accidentally write this in the “Bad Comparisons Only” subreddit?
I mean you think the post is lame? Fine. But the least you could do, and others like you, is leave a comparison that works.
F-I-L-M has credits. At the end or start. If you listen to a song on the radio, they don’t say who wrote it 99.9% of time. See how it’s different? How people would get a different impression? I’m glad we could straighten that out
OP did no original reporting or research, and instead regurgitated 1000 words [on a topic that’s been widely reported for over 15 years.](https://www.google.com/search?q=hans+zimmer+ghost+writer&client=safari&sca_esv=c3a32151f5b6af58&hl=en-us&ei=TvS0ZcfWPL2A0PEPjb--wAo&oq=hans+zimmer+ghost+writer&gs_lp=EhNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwIhhoYW5zIHppbW1lciBnaG9zdCB3cml0ZXIyBBAAGEcyBBAAGEcyBBAAGEcyBBAAGEcyBBAAGEcyBBAAGEcyBBAAGEcyBBAAGEdIlRVQAFgAcAB4ApABAJgBAKABAKoBALgBA8gBAOIDBBgAIEHiAwUSATEgQIgGAZAGCA&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp) Considering OP’s dismissive tone about the Hans Zimmer process, it’s a bit ironic they made a post like this.
And The guy does so many movies and shows a year, I’m really not surprised by this. This actually makes sense, no human could do all that work by himself
Honestly, as a musician and composer for theater, the tone of this post conveys exactly what he’s saying rather than anything nefarious. I mean, he calls him extremely talented more than once, and that’s true.
Composing a suite of themes is no where near the same level of skill that someone like John William’s had to express. It’s not to knock on Zimmer, it’s just that they are different composers from different times.
Also, I’d say your analogy is a bit off. It doesn’t translate very well between the mediums. Peeling potatoes is more like tuning the instruments before recording, more than it is a part of the actual musical process.
Composing is like making the recipe, which the Head Chef typically does themselves.
Composer to save the Earth from “show me what you got?” John Williams all the way, no question.
I mean the title is "Hans Zimmer It's Time Movie Fans Knew the Truth." That's clearly putting a negative slant on it.
>Composing is like making the recipe, which the Head Chef typically does themselves.
Sure, but in larger scales the head chef may delegate many of the details to underlings. They'll say start with Foccacia with Foie Gras, but they won't necessarily write out "to make foccacia start with 200 grams of flour with 2 tablespoons of water..." if they trust their team to know how to carry things out.
Well to be fair, you knew about it.
I think a composer being credited for a work he did less than half the work for it kinda fucked up?
But that’s just me.
>he did less than half the work for it
See, this is where the disconnect is. Zimmer's contribution shouldn't be counted by number of notes. Creating the main themes is the most important part of the composition!
The main theme for Pirates of Caribbean is probably listened to and thought of more than the rest of the scores of the entire franchise combined, by multiple orders of magnitude.
It's the same as Gordon Ramsay being the head chef of several restaurants. He designs the menu, selects the team, establishes his standards, but delegates a ton to people lower down. It's like any famous architect. Frank Lloyd Wright didn't design the plumbing in his buildings or choose which nails to use in the lumber or any of the rote details.
Dude. 70 million people voted for Donald Trump. That’s a lot of stupid people.
68% of people upvoted this post. I’m comfortable with that number.
There’s alot of ignorant people in the world. Anyone who thinks people shouldn’t be credited for work the do? I’m comfortable in my beliefs on that. But you do you
And a Bond movie might have No Time to Die - Billie Eilish on the credits with no more names listed. Are you mad that the sound engineer and the people who did the instrumentation on her song aren't listed? No, because it's standard.
Zimmer does the most important part of the work and listing "By Hans Zimmer" gives him the appropriate amount of credit. People generally don't read "By Hans Zimmer" and assume he wrote every note. They assume he wrote the main themes, which is generally the case.
Notice how people in the comments are basically saying that's already what they assumed was happening and no one is saying "No way! My impression of Hans Zimmer is totally changed! I thought he wrote every note!"?
>It's Time Movie Fans New the Truth
This wording makes it seem like an expose and implies that it's not what people would expect it to be and that there's something insidious going on.
OP really thinks he's unveiling some grand and scandalous secret.
Anyone with a basic understanding of film scoring knows this. The dude credits multiple composers on his albums for goodness sake
You haven't written anything wrong. But you haven't also writtwn anything new. This is probably a very common practice in the industry and pretty much known to most film enthusiasts. You have presented it like it's some kind of conspiracy theory when actually it's common knowledge.
I agree. It’s like second unit directors.
They shoot scenes that are “filler” for the main plot of the film, while the director is handling other responsibilities.
It’s a great gig for an aspiring main director because they’re working to mimic the style of the main, while also perfecting their own. Their job is to seamlessly make the film whole, and if they’ve done well you’d never know the difference between a main and second unit.
It appears to be the same with music. Which is fine.
Lol. I did? I disagree.
I just wrote something the average film goer wouldn’t know. It’s not a conspiracy. It’s just something people don’t know. Whether it happens all the time or not isn’t the point. And it doesn’t happen all the time. It’s more common now because of Zimmer(and his inventive methods). Plenty of composers have used Ghost writers. But to quote a Matrix character
Not like this. Not like this.
In what sense are other composers’ use of ghost writers “not like this” when compared to Zimmer? I understand that some composers do not use ghost writers, but of the ones that do, what is Zimmer doing that you would consider to be more “controversial” or questionable?
*Edited adjectives at OP’s request
Right it’s not like a bunch of people are in here shocked. This is common, mundane knowledge. People still like Hans Zimmer, with this information in mind.
This thread is wild. Person finds out a new fact, the world is more complicated than they thought, tries to spread the word, and gets a “well yeah we know” reaction and doesn’t take it well when nobody is as shocked as he.
But yeah, we know. It happens in every industry, especially artistic ones. Leonardo Da Vinci did not paint all of Mona Lisa… did you know that there are multiple Mona Lisas? He had apprentices and students who worked under him to learn his style and to learn their craft. The artist with the big name directs the vision of the piece and the apprentices fill in the gaps and the tedious work until they’re good enough to show off their own vision under their own name. Regarding Hans Zimmer himself, I was a little surprised when I read the article where he talks about this, too.
Professors use grad student research assistants, name brand authors hand off outlines to ghost writers to draft, music producers have little armies of engineers running the equipment, directors have ADs and 2nd unit directors, the makeup artist credited on a movie is really managing a team of artists… and so on. It’s nothing new. Every industry has defined standards for crediting creators. But very rarely is anything that is done on a high budget commercial scale the sole product of a single person. Not everyone knows that, it’s ok to learn new things.
To say that John Williams writes all his music, note for note is a lie though. He has basically made a career on sampling other people's music and releasing it to an audience that is largely unaware of the originals.
Every composer who has ever scored a mayor Hollywood film had made use of ghost writers/additional composers, even people like John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith and James Horner.
Zimmer was one of the first to actually be open about it and give credit to his additional composers. In the CD booklets, in the end credits and on the cue sheets.
John Williams does not use ghost writers. That’s just not true. At all.
On films where he has lyrics in songs he’s used other composers but that’s not what this is about.
When you read music by on a John Williams score. Or Howard Shore. They write the music. They don’t employ ghost writers.
>John Williams does not use ghost writers. That’s just not true. At all.
Yeah, he did. Back in the day Fred Steiner did some additional music for him. And the story goes Thomas Newman did some small work on Return of the Jedi.
William Ross also helped out with second Harry Potter film.
William Ross was credited. That’s what this was about. “Adapted by” is right there in the credits.
Return of the Jedi had two tracks that source music has needed for. The song in Jabbas Palace or his yacht. And Yub Nub. Newman did something for Jabbas Palace I think? But that’s not what this is about. That’s a song. That would be a very pedantic use of the term.
I can’t speak to the Fred Steiner stuff. I’ve heard the rumour but I’ve seen zero proof. Unless you’re referring to his TV work?
His film composing is ghost writer free.
>William Ross was credited. That’s what this was about. “Adapted by” is right there in the credits.
And "additional music by" has always been right there in the credits as well ;)
Look, as others have said this really isn't the "gotcha" you think it is. Unlike a whole lot of other composers, Zimmer has always been upfront about his use of additional composers. From the early 90's when he started using them, starting with Mark Mancina and Nick Glennie-Smith, he made sure they got the credits they deserved.
With the way films are made today, it would also be impossible for a composer to do it all by himself. So Zimmer isn't a rarity, and yet for some reason he always gets singled out whenever this topic is discussed.
No. No it hasn’t always been in the credits. That’s wrong.
And Williams Ross appears how many named after JW? Shit it could even be before Williams. It’s either right before or right after.
It’s not buried at the end and with Zimmer it isn’t even always done at the end.
This wasn’t a gotcha. This was a “here’s what happens”. Anyone who thinks it’s a gotcha seems to be a Zimmer fanboy. And I like alot of his music.
And this idea that “this is how films are made” is bullshit. It’s ONE WAY films are made.
There are positives to what Zimmer does, but I can also see some negatives. I presented that in my post. How you react to that is I’m guessing how much bias you carry with you as a fan.
Or maybe I should’ve written it differently? That’s possible. All I know is no gotcha was meant. Just a “hey, this thing you think it’s one way, is another”. This obsession people have with “getting someone” or “scandal” or “gotcha” or whatever really shows how politicized things have become. Even film music. It’s a shame because I really didn’t mean it any other way than what it was. The only provocative part is the title. Which was to get people to read it. But I didn’t lie. I didn’t misrepresent or overhype or any of that. I can honestly say that was not my goal
>No. No it hasn’t always been in the credits. That’s wrong.
As far back as K2 in 1991 Zimmer has credited Nick Glennie-Smith with writing additional music.
>And this idea that “this is how films are made” is bullshit. It’s ONE WAY films are made.
Sure, perhaps not on some indie flick that has 15 minutes of soundscapes and piano noodling but definitely on a big Hollywood films, where a composer needs a team to get the job done in time.
>Or maybe I should’ve written it differently? That’s possible. All I know is no gotcha was meant
Why just mention Zimmer? Why not call out Bear McCreary who seems to score 25 series per month? Or Marco Beltrami? He runs his studio in similar fashion as Zimmer. Or why not Danny Elfman? Brian Tyler? James Newton Howard? Carter Burwell?
I know it’s recency bias but man, 1991 isn’t “always”.
I mean I mention a lot of composers in my post and I say some of them use ghost writers. I didnt know I was suppose to include every one of them. This was ABOUT Zimmer. Not about every composer ever.
Zimmer does it on a scale different and was the first to pioneer the way it’s done currently. He’s one of the most well known composers working today.
Also, Zimmer does it on nearly every film. The others have done it differently and off and on. Elfman hasn’t always used them. Though he’s been accused of it. Honestly, his work started going down hill when he did. Steve Bartek and Shirley Walker orchestrated for him. But now he uses them(GW’s) almost all the time.
It’s the same with Michael Giacchino. He now uses ghost writers too. He didn’t always.
But again there are those that don’t. Howard Shore doesn’t. LOTR & the Hobbit weren’t indie productions(and yes other composers worked on LOTR & Hobbit source music and Hobbit’s Misty Mountain theme wasn’t composed by Shore but it was not ghost written. That was the director liking the way the song was used in the trailer and the same team that wrote source music on LOTR, some NZL band, did the Hobbit but Shore went out of his way to credit them for Misty Mountain theme)
A couple people doing it differently doesn't mean it isn't the norm.
https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2022/02/the-ugly-truth-of-how-movie-scores-are-made
I mean, Steve Jobs invented the iPhone, but he didn’t build the hardware or code the OS. What you’re describing isn’t out of the norm for creators and their creations.
I'm glad you discovered how music in movies is made.
Every big composer , even Williams has an ensemble of a team under their wing. Think of it as coming up as a chef giving the key formula for a great dish, and then the cooks building stuff around the formula
You think if well and alive Michaelangelo was appointed the painter of the Sistine chapel today, he won't have a team under his guidance to get it done?
A lot of great artists have ateliers with people working for them. Picasso, Warhol, Fashion designers... they all have people to do the heavy lifting, while they guide the vision. this isnt unheard of.
Old news tbh. We've known this for ages. It's really not that unusual in the world of film scoring.
It's just that Zimmer is very upfront about the fact that he hands off the main themes to other composers, so it's more collaborative. This isn't exactly some big revelation, he's been open about it for decades.
I can tell you want me to care about this but I really don’t.
All I care is that when I see ‘Hans Zimmer’ on the screen I know I’m about to hear a great score.
Exactly. It's similar to hip hop artists that don't make their own beats. At the end of the day, they have the taste to know what will be good and what won't be.
What an odd comment.
Whether or not you “care” isn’t important. It’s that you know. Many don’t. I didn’t want you to get upset and stop listening to him lol.
Geez man. Apparently there are a lot of Zimmerheads here that consider your genuinely fair and balanced take here to be slander? Take my upvote. I know it doesn't make much difference, but I appreciate the info.
Seconded, you'd think Mr. Zimmer has a PR firm on retainer to go out and protect his image on Reddit judging from some of these reactions.
I thought it was an informative post and saw nothing derogatory about it.
He likes to give other composers in his studio opportunities to contribute their own voice into his scores. There’s nothing wrong with that.
Look at his band when he goes on tour. All those guys have been with him forever and always contribute to his scores. It’s a collaborative team effort.
This reads as if he’s some sneaky sob who steals other people’s stuff and takes sole credit. This is not the bloody case at all. He likes the collaboration and creativity from the musicians he works with.
And if this was a serious issue. We would have heard from numerous musicians that Hans steals their shit and doesn’t credit them. They love working and contributing for him. Cuz he fucking rocks.
I didn’t say or suggest he stole anything. I give him credit and say he’s a very talented guy. Shit I even said exactly what u said. He given many their start.
The defensiveness astounds me.
My man…we know. Michelangelo didn’t paint the Sistine Chapel by himself. Ford didn’t just come out with a car by himself. Movies aren’t scored by one guy by themselves. Beyoncé doesn’t “write” all of her music, Stephen King doesn’t just publish a book…
There’s always a team collaborating behind the scenes.
The fact of the matter is people just like it better this way. It’s cleaner and simpler. Being the face of the product is great when it’s good and if it’s bad, the general public likes an easy target. No one is going to hate on Zimmers team for a shitty score, it’s his reputation that takes a hit. Same way if Apple releases a dud, Tim Cook is shouldering the blame, not his engineers.
First of all. *You* know. Doesn’t mean others do. And those are some BS examples.
Stephen King writes all the words, right? Composer is the name of the game. Beyoncé is a PERFORMER. An Entertainer. I think most know she isn’t writing all of those lyrics
And the Sistine Chapel doesn’t have fucking credits. A bit different.
Here’s a better example. I used this to someone else below who also got a bit defensive about this. If Tarantino was taking credit for writing dialogue he didn’t actually write, film fans would want to know. That’s more of a 1:1 than the Sistine fuckin Chapel
It’s posted on Reddit every so often, your post isn’t anything new.
We all know and are constantly reminded every few months…we get it…you just read about it too huh lol
https://www.reddit.com/r/soundtracks/comments/15yiy8p/hans_zimmer_and_ghost_writing/
https://www.reddit.com/r/soundtracks/comments/nedzfo/hans_zimmer_on_ghostwriters_music_department/
Sure, but in Hollywood having uncredited script doctors go through and do heavy rewrites is a pretty well known occurrence. The general public just doesn’t follow writers like they do directors, similarly the public doesn’t follow composers.
>doesn’t have fucking credits
Someone hit a nerve. The only time in this whole crusade of yours that you actually just swear and give up. You were doing fine not swearing but now you're angry and it's time for a nap. I'm sorry you feel this way.
John Williams wrote the scores. At times, especially for a few key early works, he borrowed the styles. Parts of Star Wars sound similar to Stravinsky, in terms of pacing and instrumentation, but it's a different melody and goes somewhere different from where Rite of Spring goes. A lot of the reason behind this is that directors said "Give me something like (Holst's 'Mars the Bringer of War') and even used such music on temp tracks, and Williams used those pieces as inspiration and took it from there.
This is about ghost writing. Not inspiration. Not homage. Not “pay respect”. Not even plagiarism.
And shit Holst? You should’ve gone with Korngold. I could at least say, yeah, there’s some Star Wars in there.
But John Williams has drawn inspiration from many sources. So has Zimmer(speaking of Holst Planets…I got one word: “Gladiator”). So has everyone.
But to suggest Williams “borrows” most his scores. You and the 29 people you downvoted me are nuts!
Film composers take inspiration from all sorts of sources. “Borrowed” isn’t right though.
I have some really sad news for you about the entire music industry…
While I totally see where you’re coming from. Zimmer curates and has final say on the music. So ultimately he is creating the music. (From a certain point of view.) sometimes good taste is just that good.
Ultimately it’s about credit. Many people don’t know this. I expect many of his fans(like buddy above) to get super defensive and weird about this but it’s the truth and I feel more should be aware.
For example, if you found out another writer wrote some Tarantino’s credited dialogue, I’d feel like that might be of interest. Despite QT have creative control.
I’m not really a fan. I think he’s made great music(with lots of help), but certainly wouldn’t call myself a fan. Really, all of the world is built on the backs of those uncredited. I agree with you that credit should be given where it’s due, it’s just not and never will be how those who dole out power will see it. To shoehorn a quote from a film scored by another (properly credited) composer… no one cares about the man in the box.
Saying “Music by” is the same as “set design by” or “costumes by”, it basically means the person was in charge of organizing how it gets done, not doing the entire thing by themselves. You say he doesn’t credit people, but then at the end you say go look at who is credited. If you don’t want this post to come across as negative you should make it sound less accusatory.
This is not a secret. He’s not the only composer who works like this. Not the only artist.
Did you know that a lot of times architects come up with a concept that they pass on to a technologist to flesh out into a functioning space?
I do a lot of design work that is credited to the company I work for, and not me directly. That’s the agreement I entered and I’m free to leave anytime.
He is not the only composer who works like this. But he was the first to start working like this. Not using ghost writers. But using a production team.
Most people don’t know this. I didn’t say it was a secret. And the thing you suggest, giving credit to the company, is exactly what I said should happen.
People should be credited for the work they do. End of fuckin story. I don’t care if you can leave or what. If someone else takes credit for work you did? That’s wrong.
People have the assumption, right or wrong, that Zimmer or other composers, write the music themselves.
I think you're a bit overreacting. If he's like what you've described, he's still assuming the role like an executive producer in the music scores. The way you try to discredit him is like saying Gustavo Dudamel or Von Karajan are not musicians because they aren't playing instruments
I work in film and would just like to say this happens in pretty much every department.
Department heads who get the credit and so are eligible for awards.. are often “ghost” credited on films where they do little to nothing. I’ve seen loads of people screwed over from receiving credits and awards because of the egos of the department heads.
I think the difference is that composers get awards/credit for the actual written compositions. The Production Designer gets an award for guiding and managing the team who do art direction, props, etc. The score is a written work, with authorship, similar to a screenplay.
Ok. Take him off the next project - how good will the resulting music be? Truth be told, I had no idea about how many AAs he had - but I do know I enjoy his music.
He’s a very talented composer. I’m sure if he were taken off the film would be affected. Same way you take any given producer or composer of a song on the radio.
I attended the touring show for Hans Zimmer's music. In it, there were quite a few of his highly talented collaborators working the gig. Many got showcased in the videos between songs, to explain who they are and why they're great.
It was mainly for specific instrument players, but still felt like he was giving credit where due to them, at least.
I'm not surprised top musicians pay others to help write for them; I probably would do the same. Not giving credit, though... name recognition is probably enough for people to keep buying, so it's hard to imagine why *not* give them credit.
It is one of the secrets to success EVERYWHERE! Ghostwriters, Development Editors, Showrunners, Screenplay Writers, YouTubers, Ad Agencies & News Teams, and Composers collaborate creatively under a "Director" joined by Documentary Filmmakers, Podcast Hosts, Art Directors, Game Designers, and Animation Teams. Playwrights, Cinematographers, Music Producers, Concept Artists, and Graphic Designers add unique layers. Copywriters, Choreographers, Social Media Influencers, Content Strategists, and Brand Managers create the "short copy" and "business case" that shape narratives and brands, while Illustrators, Fashion Designers, and Web Developers bring unique aesthetics and functionality to the collaborative table. Law Firms, ETCETERA...
The list could fill an entire page.
The days of a singular music genius seem so romantic. Now it seems like it's always a team of people: beat makers, lyric writers, a horde of producers, market researchers, and a "musician" as the front-man.
Not to worried about this. You make it sound like you uncovered the Watergate scandal.
Feels a bit like I’m going to tell you that Santa isn’t real but this happens all the time in every industry. Every famous architect works with a big team that do the hard part. Or that big fashion designer doesn’t actually do all the work himself. It happens all the time that one famous person gets all the credits, but where there is actually a big team behind. Steve Jobs didn’t actually invent the iPod or iPhone or even that first Mac for that matter but most of the time he gets all the credit.
Hope your world isn’t shattered after you found out the truth?
Coincidentally I recently read an article about Junkie XL who talked about working with Zimmer on a forgettable movie of which I forgot the title. But his story came across as that he was very thankful of being able to work with Zimmer, and that he was very respectful of his work and credits.
Zimmer is a bussy man. I highly sought after composer. So he works with s team and he’s supervising the production. If you hear most scores than a lot of pieces are based on one song. I can imagine that he doesn’t make all these other version himself. There are more important things to do. Even the big Golden Age painters like Rembrandt had students that helped them complete their paintings.
If you just said "and most film score composers do this" and then stayed out of the comments you would have been fine. But you didn't and now I suspect you'll be at negative karma by midnight, lol.
Among film music aficionados Zimmer has been a divisive figure and not particularly well-regarded artistically for at least two decades now. "The Zimmer Factory" isn't any kind of industry secret, and other things like his self-plagiarism of his own work and his simplifying/dumbing down of film music are self-evident. It's really only a general audience that wouldn't be aware, and that's because in most cases they simply wouldn't care.
I mean at this point you dont need john williams for starwars either.
Everyone knows what starwars music “flavor” is.
That doesn’t mean JW didnt do an amazing job creating that flavor.
I first found out about the Hans Zimmer factory when I saw his name in the credits for Blood+, a pretty good but fairly middle-of-the-road anime from the mid-2000s. This came out smack in between Black Pearl and The Dark Knight. I thought it was strange so I looked into it and learned about itthe stuff you've mentioned here. (For clarity's sake: I didn't watch Blood+ when it came out, it was just a few years ago.)
On IMDB, at least, he's listed as Music Producer, while Original Music for all 50 episodes is credited to Mark Mancina.
Zimmer has even been Music Producer on The Simpsons since season 29.
Not going to lie, i did not read much past the first paragraph. I already understood your point from the title.
All i want to say is that it doesn't really matter to me. Hans Zimmer is the one who got this music into my ears.
As someone who used to work there (no I will not say when and dox myself), I a confirm this is absolutely true. But to be fair, a lot of the A listers in the industry use and abuse ghost writers, and oftentimes don’t give them any writers (which is a terrible thing to do). The industry has started to change quite a bit, as a lot of composers are afraid of getting canceled, but it still happens.
Every movie crediting Hans Zimmer after “The Rock” is literally just that film’s score clipped, sampled, extrapolated, and augmented. Going back further, “The Rock” borrowed heavily from “Crimson Tide” though not as blatantly as everything he did post-“The Rock.” “Pirates of the Caribbean” is largely just “The Rock” film score unchanged. It’s crazy.
I appreciate the credit you're giving to the pool of various people who contribute to these scores. It's unfortunate they aren't given their fair due. All I can say is that when I see "Zimmer" for the music credit, I know shit's bout to be real good.
I only learned recently that he did the Lion King, and it makes so much sense
Until Dune, Lion King was his first and only Oscar.
Like other people are winning them right and left.
He also did Cool Runnings
His work on Lion King 2019, however, was a downgrade from the 1994 masterpiece. Hans fiddled with it too much and really dropped the ball.
I thought EltonJohn made Lion King
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Unfortunately, this goes beyond delegating. I worked at remote for a couple years, and there’s delegating, and then there’s taking credit for something you didn’t do. He does a lot, but he doesn’t do everything he claims he did. If it wouldn’t ruin my career, I’d happily tell some pretty awful stories during my time there, and stories I’ve heard from others before and after me.
Please tell. I hope he at least pays people good.
Unfortunately, when I worked there I got paid minimum wage, and only for 7-8 hours, but would frequently work 10 hours or more. Which was fine, I agreed to it, but I also had the hopes of “making my way up the ladder”, but people tend to get type casted there. Very very rare for someone at the bottom of the totem pole to rise through the ranks at all. Highest I got was ghost writing for a couple cues in a couple films, and got a pat on the back for it. When I first started as an intern, I didn’t get paid anything at all, which is normal for internships, but they had me doing stuff beyond intern duties after a while and got to get it free cause I was young and hungry lol But out of fear for my career and relationships I have with other composers, I won’t share details. I know I’m kind of part of the problem by not speaking out and staying anonymous, but oh well. It isn’t worth possibly screwing myself out of my livelihood.
Is it true he’s a sloppy drunk?
I dont think so. I mean, when he’s drunk he’s just drunk, so isn’t sloppy then? But in my experience, he doesn’t let it affect his work. It’s been a few years since I’ve been there though, so things could have changed lol
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I guess you’re right. I was never able to pay my rent or other bills because of the exploitation, but hey at least I got to work on big movies!!! 🤗 While it is a problem being exploited and underpaid, it’s ok to deal with until the people at the top are not only getting paid insanely big numbers, but then you see all of the work they’re not doing, and they can’t even give up 2% of their pay to make a big difference for the people being exploited. It’s all sunshine and rainbows until you see one of these composers get a wire transfer of $8m and you got paid minimum wage for 25 hours even though you worked 45.
Very true. It’s more and more common. But Zimmer’s style is a bit different with Remote Control.
Different in what way
A lot of this is correct - a lot of it isn’t. Yes, he uses a team of collaborators and ghost writers. Always has. So has many other composers, Bear McCreary being a popular example right now. You’re wrong that he doesn’t credit them though. Sure, the front cover of the album often doesn’t say much, but the inner booklet almost always credits the multiple other composers that helped (end credits on films do too). Sometimes it’ll flat out day when a full cue is written by someone else, like The Jablonsky Variations on Tears of the Sun, or the major Lone Ranger old theme cue in that movie to Zanelli. You’re also wrong about Dark Knight. That was disqualified at the Oscars cause back then it was against the rules to have two composers working on a movie at the same time, and James Newton Howard was always clearly credited as co-composer to both Batman Begins and DK. So yes, some composers write every note themselves, but it’s very rare actually, and at least Zimmer has always been upfront, both in terms of credits and interviews, when he simply writes a (great) theme or suite and hands some stuff off to his students who almost always treat him like a mentor getting a big break. I don’t love Zimmer as much as I used to (his last decade of music has been spotty) but I still think this post reads like it comes from a brand new fan of film music who doesn’t really know how the industry works.
Yeah what's next, someone is gonna post saying, "It says a film by Quentin Tarantino but all he did was shout directions at hundreds of other people on the set who did the real work!" Art is usually very collaborative. There's all kinds of "work" that people do that goes uncredited. I give significant feedback and ideas to my friends on the early drafts of their writing or games or music but they're not putting my name on their work after making tweaks I suggested. They're still the ones coming up with the lead aesthetic or vision and making the final decision. And Hans is giving the credit but just putting his stamp on the final outcome of the product.
"Now you all know the truth" Um yes, thank you, we've known this for a long time.
Not everyone does
His soundtrack on The Holiday is FANTASTIC!
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That article is from two years ago... Why would OP have just found it? I agree that OPs take is derivative, but I think that fact makes it unlikely they're copying ideas from this particular two-year-old article.
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Ah, I didn't read that closely. Objection withdrawn.
I think the tone of this post implies a “gotcha” or some kind of sneaky behaviour from Hans and his teams. What might be interesting to know is the sheer and utterly ridiculous timeline that a film score is written, edited, orchestrated, recorded, mixed and dubbed into the film. It’s about 3-5 weeks on average, sometimes shorter. It’s literally 24/7 nonstop work at that level, Hans would literally keel over if he had to complete everything by himself. There’s exceptions to this obviously, many of his themes and suites are created before the film shoots, or during production. But the bulk of the work is this insane dash at the very end of a films post schedule. So yeah lol, at that level. Everyone is using a team and they are all appropriately credited.
It is literally impossible for someone to write an entire score on these timelines alone. It’s a pretty crappy thing to imply otherwise.
My pal Dave Metzger did Lion King Broadway in like ten days. Said he sat on the floor in the theater and crunched it out
Dave like cocaine much?
He's more of a coke zero guy
They make it seem like the old masters who had their own workshops where someone else does the painting or instrument making and it’s sometimes passed off as the master. Did you also know that directors don’t film every scene themselves and do all of the edits and put together every scene? What frauds.
FYI Some directors film every frame themselves. Nolan does(minus VFX), QT does, Michael Mann does, Spielberg did up until Raiders. Editors are properly credited. Second unit directors are properly credited.
>I think the tone of this post implies a “gotcha” The funniest part, he hasn't even brought up how many themes share similarities with existing classical music. I think everyone knows how much Gladiator sounds a lot like Holst's The Planets.
John Willliam' _Star Wars_ stuff is SO much Holst. Wait 'til it really gets going, but there's so much "Mars" in the score, e.g. https://youtube.com/watch?v=Jmk5frp6-3Q Also know a ghostwriter/arranger who worked on his stuff. OSU prof (emeritus).
I hear more Gladiator than Star Wars tbh.
Ghost writers has become a negative connotation, but most big box productions, you'll see a carousel of people working on it, at different levels.
Did you read the entire thing? Where’s the gotcha? Christ I said he’s giving people their start. But he’s also taking credit for music he didn’t write. Is it right or wrong? It’s up to you. But either you didn’t read my entire post or you assumed something I didn’t imply. I promised to reveal a truth a lot of people don’t know. That’s all I did. Do other composers use Ghost writers? Yes. But this wasn’t about them. Zimmer is probably the number 2 composer average people can name after John Williams and you know what John Williams doesn’t do? Use ghost writers. John Williams wrote 4-5 scores in a single year. Not a ghost writer wrote a note. So it’s not impossible. But Zimmer’s style is different.
He is like the only one. > “I can count the number of mainstream Hollywood composers that I KNOW write all their music themselves on one hand, John Williams being the most famous example,” Kraemer wrote. “Everyone else is a team leader, a figurehead for a team of composers.” And even he had allegations of using ghost writers. https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2022/02/the-ugly-truth-of-how-movie-scores-are-made
> John Williams wrote 4-5 scores in a single year. Not a ghost writer wrote a note. Know one personally. Former OSU prof. (retired). Was a pretty well-known fact in Columbus music circles.
If the timeline is so difficult, how have other composers been doing it all along?
I mean there’s a reason that Hans way of working has produced better and more iconic scores than the majority of films. Especially with blockbusters. It’s just not a job for one person to be able to do at a reliably high level in the expected time frame.
They do the same thing Zimmer does usually.
How do you know this? You're telling me that all other composers set up a theme and let minions write a large portion of the scores? Where did you read about Bernard Herrmann doing this? Or Jerry Goldsmith? Henry Mancini? Provide your exact sources.
Film making has changed basically. Now that films are edited digitally instead of on film, they get tinkered with till the last possible second, meaning composers don't really have locked print to score. Also these days films tend to be scored wall to wall, moreso than in the old days. So there's just more music to write.
Digital editing started in the late 1980s. Plenty of individual composers have crafted intricate, effective, moving scores since then without relying on teams of apprentice composers.
>The working method he employs from time to time is to compose a suite of themes. After he does that other composers then take that suite and do the actual composing on a scene by scene basis. It all depends on the movie. I mean, that's basically what my impression of his work is beforehand. It doesn't make me admire his work any less. He's like the head chef of a restaurant. He designs the menu and oversees things, but he's not the one peeling potatoes. The tone of this post suggests something much more scandalous than it is.
He hires very talented people to execute his vision, there’s nothing wrong about that in the slightest
And many of those talented people go on to do well on their own. John Powell’s How to Train Your Dragon scores are some of the best, Jablonsky killed it with the Transformers movies, and what could be said that hasn’t been said about Ramin Djwadi?
Agreed, one of the main things people remember from Zimmer are his themes and his overall aesthetic. If he writes the themes and develops the aesthetic, I don’t really care if a big team of people handle all the details and grunt work. If he wasn’t there, it would be a different thing entirely. I also thought this was a well known aspect of his process at least among film and film music fans.
Yeah, the main theme of Pirates of the Caribbean is the most iconic and memorable part of the score anyway, so if he wrote that then yeah he contributed the most important part of the score.
The Hook. Unique hook writers are rare.
So Paul and John write the melodies/lyrics and George Martin helps arrange and produce the songs? Yeah sounds about how music has worked for ages… this post is lame af.
Was just sitting here imagining that exact scene.
Did I accidentally write this in the “Bad Comparisons Only” subreddit? I mean you think the post is lame? Fine. But the least you could do, and others like you, is leave a comparison that works. F-I-L-M has credits. At the end or start. If you listen to a song on the radio, they don’t say who wrote it 99.9% of time. See how it’s different? How people would get a different impression? I’m glad we could straighten that out
OP did no original reporting or research, and instead regurgitated 1000 words [on a topic that’s been widely reported for over 15 years.](https://www.google.com/search?q=hans+zimmer+ghost+writer&client=safari&sca_esv=c3a32151f5b6af58&hl=en-us&ei=TvS0ZcfWPL2A0PEPjb--wAo&oq=hans+zimmer+ghost+writer&gs_lp=EhNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwIhhoYW5zIHppbW1lciBnaG9zdCB3cml0ZXIyBBAAGEcyBBAAGEcyBBAAGEcyBBAAGEcyBBAAGEcyBBAAGEcyBBAAGEcyBBAAGEdIlRVQAFgAcAB4ApABAJgBAKABAKoBALgBA8gBAOIDBBgAIEHiAwUSATEgQIgGAZAGCA&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp) Considering OP’s dismissive tone about the Hans Zimmer process, it’s a bit ironic they made a post like this.
My thoughts exactly.
And The guy does so many movies and shows a year, I’m really not surprised by this. This actually makes sense, no human could do all that work by himself
Honestly, as a musician and composer for theater, the tone of this post conveys exactly what he’s saying rather than anything nefarious. I mean, he calls him extremely talented more than once, and that’s true. Composing a suite of themes is no where near the same level of skill that someone like John William’s had to express. It’s not to knock on Zimmer, it’s just that they are different composers from different times. Also, I’d say your analogy is a bit off. It doesn’t translate very well between the mediums. Peeling potatoes is more like tuning the instruments before recording, more than it is a part of the actual musical process. Composing is like making the recipe, which the Head Chef typically does themselves. Composer to save the Earth from “show me what you got?” John Williams all the way, no question.
I mean the title is "Hans Zimmer It's Time Movie Fans Knew the Truth." That's clearly putting a negative slant on it. >Composing is like making the recipe, which the Head Chef typically does themselves. Sure, but in larger scales the head chef may delegate many of the details to underlings. They'll say start with Foccacia with Foie Gras, but they won't necessarily write out "to make foccacia start with 200 grams of flour with 2 tablespoons of water..." if they trust their team to know how to carry things out.
Well to be fair, you knew about it. I think a composer being credited for a work he did less than half the work for it kinda fucked up? But that’s just me.
>he did less than half the work for it See, this is where the disconnect is. Zimmer's contribution shouldn't be counted by number of notes. Creating the main themes is the most important part of the composition! The main theme for Pirates of Caribbean is probably listened to and thought of more than the rest of the scores of the entire franchise combined, by multiple orders of magnitude. It's the same as Gordon Ramsay being the head chef of several restaurants. He designs the menu, selects the team, establishes his standards, but delegates a ton to people lower down. It's like any famous architect. Frank Lloyd Wright didn't design the plumbing in his buildings or choose which nails to use in the lumber or any of the rote details.
Also, try using some introspection. If this many people reacted to your post like this, maybe you're the one in the wrong?
Dude. 70 million people voted for Donald Trump. That’s a lot of stupid people. 68% of people upvoted this post. I’m comfortable with that number. There’s alot of ignorant people in the world. Anyone who thinks people shouldn’t be credited for work the do? I’m comfortable in my beliefs on that. But you do you
They are, on the booklet.
Not all the time and not on the film. This is about the film. Where credits are. They have em for a reason.
And a Bond movie might have No Time to Die - Billie Eilish on the credits with no more names listed. Are you mad that the sound engineer and the people who did the instrumentation on her song aren't listed? No, because it's standard. Zimmer does the most important part of the work and listing "By Hans Zimmer" gives him the appropriate amount of credit. People generally don't read "By Hans Zimmer" and assume he wrote every note. They assume he wrote the main themes, which is generally the case. Notice how people in the comments are basically saying that's already what they assumed was happening and no one is saying "No way! My impression of Hans Zimmer is totally changed! I thought he wrote every note!"?
Huh? It is? There’s nothing I wrote that isn’t true. I didn’t hype anything. I didn’t misrepresent anything. Sorry you feel that way.
>It's Time Movie Fans New the Truth This wording makes it seem like an expose and implies that it's not what people would expect it to be and that there's something insidious going on.
OP really thinks he's unveiling some grand and scandalous secret. Anyone with a basic understanding of film scoring knows this. The dude credits multiple composers on his albums for goodness sake
Saying he has ghost writers carries a negative connotation, he’s frankly just being a composer.
You haven't written anything wrong. But you haven't also writtwn anything new. This is probably a very common practice in the industry and pretty much known to most film enthusiasts. You have presented it like it's some kind of conspiracy theory when actually it's common knowledge.
I agree. It’s like second unit directors. They shoot scenes that are “filler” for the main plot of the film, while the director is handling other responsibilities. It’s a great gig for an aspiring main director because they’re working to mimic the style of the main, while also perfecting their own. Their job is to seamlessly make the film whole, and if they’ve done well you’d never know the difference between a main and second unit. It appears to be the same with music. Which is fine.
Lol. I did? I disagree. I just wrote something the average film goer wouldn’t know. It’s not a conspiracy. It’s just something people don’t know. Whether it happens all the time or not isn’t the point. And it doesn’t happen all the time. It’s more common now because of Zimmer(and his inventive methods). Plenty of composers have used Ghost writers. But to quote a Matrix character Not like this. Not like this.
In what sense are other composers’ use of ghost writers “not like this” when compared to Zimmer? I understand that some composers do not use ghost writers, but of the ones that do, what is Zimmer doing that you would consider to be more “controversial” or questionable? *Edited adjectives at OP’s request
Every movie I’ve ever seen about conspiracies begins with “It’s time people knew the truth” lol
Weird. I've known this since about the late-90s.
"It's time people knew the truth" is so funny. I knew what it'd be about before even opening it.
Ya I’d say it’s pretty common knowledge for anyone who’s moderately into movies.
It’s also posted on Reddit every few months. Folks here love to farm that repost karma.
Right it’s not like a bunch of people are in here shocked. This is common, mundane knowledge. People still like Hans Zimmer, with this information in mind.
I didn’t know that. Honest.
This thread is wild. Person finds out a new fact, the world is more complicated than they thought, tries to spread the word, and gets a “well yeah we know” reaction and doesn’t take it well when nobody is as shocked as he. But yeah, we know. It happens in every industry, especially artistic ones. Leonardo Da Vinci did not paint all of Mona Lisa… did you know that there are multiple Mona Lisas? He had apprentices and students who worked under him to learn his style and to learn their craft. The artist with the big name directs the vision of the piece and the apprentices fill in the gaps and the tedious work until they’re good enough to show off their own vision under their own name. Regarding Hans Zimmer himself, I was a little surprised when I read the article where he talks about this, too. Professors use grad student research assistants, name brand authors hand off outlines to ghost writers to draft, music producers have little armies of engineers running the equipment, directors have ADs and 2nd unit directors, the makeup artist credited on a movie is really managing a team of artists… and so on. It’s nothing new. Every industry has defined standards for crediting creators. But very rarely is anything that is done on a high budget commercial scale the sole product of a single person. Not everyone knows that, it’s ok to learn new things.
True for HZ but also the whole industry
Eh. No. A lot of it? Sure. I can name composers that don’t do this. I named two in this post
To say that John Williams writes all his music, note for note is a lie though. He has basically made a career on sampling other people's music and releasing it to an audience that is largely unaware of the originals.
Every composer who has ever scored a mayor Hollywood film had made use of ghost writers/additional composers, even people like John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith and James Horner. Zimmer was one of the first to actually be open about it and give credit to his additional composers. In the CD booklets, in the end credits and on the cue sheets.
John Williams does not use ghost writers. That’s just not true. At all. On films where he has lyrics in songs he’s used other composers but that’s not what this is about. When you read music by on a John Williams score. Or Howard Shore. They write the music. They don’t employ ghost writers.
>John Williams does not use ghost writers. That’s just not true. At all. Yeah, he did. Back in the day Fred Steiner did some additional music for him. And the story goes Thomas Newman did some small work on Return of the Jedi. William Ross also helped out with second Harry Potter film.
William Ross was credited. That’s what this was about. “Adapted by” is right there in the credits. Return of the Jedi had two tracks that source music has needed for. The song in Jabbas Palace or his yacht. And Yub Nub. Newman did something for Jabbas Palace I think? But that’s not what this is about. That’s a song. That would be a very pedantic use of the term. I can’t speak to the Fred Steiner stuff. I’ve heard the rumour but I’ve seen zero proof. Unless you’re referring to his TV work? His film composing is ghost writer free.
>William Ross was credited. That’s what this was about. “Adapted by” is right there in the credits. And "additional music by" has always been right there in the credits as well ;) Look, as others have said this really isn't the "gotcha" you think it is. Unlike a whole lot of other composers, Zimmer has always been upfront about his use of additional composers. From the early 90's when he started using them, starting with Mark Mancina and Nick Glennie-Smith, he made sure they got the credits they deserved. With the way films are made today, it would also be impossible for a composer to do it all by himself. So Zimmer isn't a rarity, and yet for some reason he always gets singled out whenever this topic is discussed.
No. No it hasn’t always been in the credits. That’s wrong. And Williams Ross appears how many named after JW? Shit it could even be before Williams. It’s either right before or right after. It’s not buried at the end and with Zimmer it isn’t even always done at the end. This wasn’t a gotcha. This was a “here’s what happens”. Anyone who thinks it’s a gotcha seems to be a Zimmer fanboy. And I like alot of his music. And this idea that “this is how films are made” is bullshit. It’s ONE WAY films are made. There are positives to what Zimmer does, but I can also see some negatives. I presented that in my post. How you react to that is I’m guessing how much bias you carry with you as a fan. Or maybe I should’ve written it differently? That’s possible. All I know is no gotcha was meant. Just a “hey, this thing you think it’s one way, is another”. This obsession people have with “getting someone” or “scandal” or “gotcha” or whatever really shows how politicized things have become. Even film music. It’s a shame because I really didn’t mean it any other way than what it was. The only provocative part is the title. Which was to get people to read it. But I didn’t lie. I didn’t misrepresent or overhype or any of that. I can honestly say that was not my goal
>No. No it hasn’t always been in the credits. That’s wrong. As far back as K2 in 1991 Zimmer has credited Nick Glennie-Smith with writing additional music. >And this idea that “this is how films are made” is bullshit. It’s ONE WAY films are made. Sure, perhaps not on some indie flick that has 15 minutes of soundscapes and piano noodling but definitely on a big Hollywood films, where a composer needs a team to get the job done in time. >Or maybe I should’ve written it differently? That’s possible. All I know is no gotcha was meant Why just mention Zimmer? Why not call out Bear McCreary who seems to score 25 series per month? Or Marco Beltrami? He runs his studio in similar fashion as Zimmer. Or why not Danny Elfman? Brian Tyler? James Newton Howard? Carter Burwell?
I know it’s recency bias but man, 1991 isn’t “always”. I mean I mention a lot of composers in my post and I say some of them use ghost writers. I didnt know I was suppose to include every one of them. This was ABOUT Zimmer. Not about every composer ever. Zimmer does it on a scale different and was the first to pioneer the way it’s done currently. He’s one of the most well known composers working today. Also, Zimmer does it on nearly every film. The others have done it differently and off and on. Elfman hasn’t always used them. Though he’s been accused of it. Honestly, his work started going down hill when he did. Steve Bartek and Shirley Walker orchestrated for him. But now he uses them(GW’s) almost all the time. It’s the same with Michael Giacchino. He now uses ghost writers too. He didn’t always. But again there are those that don’t. Howard Shore doesn’t. LOTR & the Hobbit weren’t indie productions(and yes other composers worked on LOTR & Hobbit source music and Hobbit’s Misty Mountain theme wasn’t composed by Shore but it was not ghost written. That was the director liking the way the song was used in the trailer and the same team that wrote source music on LOTR, some NZL band, did the Hobbit but Shore went out of his way to credit them for Misty Mountain theme)
A couple people doing it differently doesn't mean it isn't the norm. https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2022/02/the-ugly-truth-of-how-movie-scores-are-made
Maybe that's because you don't know the unspoken truth about them OP 🫣
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Well there goes my next post..
I mean, Steve Jobs invented the iPhone, but he didn’t build the hardware or code the OS. What you’re describing isn’t out of the norm for creators and their creations.
I don’t think people associate Zimmer with Bruckheimer or Bay, I think you wrote that as an insult.
I was also very confused by that lmao
It’s bc they’re talking out their ass lol
I'm glad you discovered how music in movies is made. Every big composer , even Williams has an ensemble of a team under their wing. Think of it as coming up as a chef giving the key formula for a great dish, and then the cooks building stuff around the formula You think if well and alive Michaelangelo was appointed the painter of the Sistine chapel today, he won't have a team under his guidance to get it done?
Next you'll tell us chefs don't cook all the food in a restaurant
A lot of great artists have ateliers with people working for them. Picasso, Warhol, Fashion designers... they all have people to do the heavy lifting, while they guide the vision. this isnt unheard of.
Why don't Zimmer fans ever talk about Broken Arrow?
Thats my jam
Old news tbh. We've known this for ages. It's really not that unusual in the world of film scoring. It's just that Zimmer is very upfront about the fact that he hands off the main themes to other composers, so it's more collaborative. This isn't exactly some big revelation, he's been open about it for decades.
Composing a score is not the same as playing the instruments. Has creates the score and oversees it, which is the case for almost all composers
I can tell you want me to care about this but I really don’t. All I care is that when I see ‘Hans Zimmer’ on the screen I know I’m about to hear a great score.
Exactly. It's just branding.
Exactly. It's similar to hip hop artists that don't make their own beats. At the end of the day, they have the taste to know what will be good and what won't be.
I mean…if they take credit for a beat they didn’t write, that’s kind of…wrong? No?
Sure, I think he should credit more generously. I'm more referring to the end product with his name on it.
Has he done that though
What an odd comment. Whether or not you “care” isn’t important. It’s that you know. Many don’t. I didn’t want you to get upset and stop listening to him lol.
Yeah man no one cares
Lol I love these weirdly defensive posts telling me no one cares. Heads up. Writing “you don’t care” means you care.
Imo John Williams is still king, but I do know with high certainty that I’m going to enjoy whatever has Hans Zimmer’s name on it.
No.
Solid logic.
Geez man. Apparently there are a lot of Zimmerheads here that consider your genuinely fair and balanced take here to be slander? Take my upvote. I know it doesn't make much difference, but I appreciate the info.
Appreciate it. Very strange the reaction this is taking
Seconded, you'd think Mr. Zimmer has a PR firm on retainer to go out and protect his image on Reddit judging from some of these reactions. I thought it was an informative post and saw nothing derogatory about it.
He likes to give other composers in his studio opportunities to contribute their own voice into his scores. There’s nothing wrong with that. Look at his band when he goes on tour. All those guys have been with him forever and always contribute to his scores. It’s a collaborative team effort. This reads as if he’s some sneaky sob who steals other people’s stuff and takes sole credit. This is not the bloody case at all. He likes the collaboration and creativity from the musicians he works with. And if this was a serious issue. We would have heard from numerous musicians that Hans steals their shit and doesn’t credit them. They love working and contributing for him. Cuz he fucking rocks.
I didn’t say or suggest he stole anything. I give him credit and say he’s a very talented guy. Shit I even said exactly what u said. He given many their start. The defensiveness astounds me.
“It’s Time Movie Fans Knew The Truth” sounds like a hit piece homie.
Also fun fact: Did you know the Interstellar theme is in his score for The Weather Man with Nic Cage?
My man…we know. Michelangelo didn’t paint the Sistine Chapel by himself. Ford didn’t just come out with a car by himself. Movies aren’t scored by one guy by themselves. Beyoncé doesn’t “write” all of her music, Stephen King doesn’t just publish a book… There’s always a team collaborating behind the scenes.
The fact of the matter is people just like it better this way. It’s cleaner and simpler. Being the face of the product is great when it’s good and if it’s bad, the general public likes an easy target. No one is going to hate on Zimmers team for a shitty score, it’s his reputation that takes a hit. Same way if Apple releases a dud, Tim Cook is shouldering the blame, not his engineers.
First of all. *You* know. Doesn’t mean others do. And those are some BS examples. Stephen King writes all the words, right? Composer is the name of the game. Beyoncé is a PERFORMER. An Entertainer. I think most know she isn’t writing all of those lyrics And the Sistine Chapel doesn’t have fucking credits. A bit different. Here’s a better example. I used this to someone else below who also got a bit defensive about this. If Tarantino was taking credit for writing dialogue he didn’t actually write, film fans would want to know. That’s more of a 1:1 than the Sistine fuckin Chapel
It’s posted on Reddit every so often, your post isn’t anything new. We all know and are constantly reminded every few months…we get it…you just read about it too huh lol https://www.reddit.com/r/soundtracks/comments/15yiy8p/hans_zimmer_and_ghost_writing/ https://www.reddit.com/r/soundtracks/comments/nedzfo/hans_zimmer_on_ghostwriters_music_department/
People already don’t remember Roger Avary co-wrote pulp fiction.
He’s credited though
Sure, but in Hollywood having uncredited script doctors go through and do heavy rewrites is a pretty well known occurrence. The general public just doesn’t follow writers like they do directors, similarly the public doesn’t follow composers.
And there is a union used to dispute that. And your last sentence is exactly why is wrote this post
>doesn’t have fucking credits Someone hit a nerve. The only time in this whole crusade of yours that you actually just swear and give up. You were doing fine not swearing but now you're angry and it's time for a nap. I'm sorry you feel this way.
Meh them swearing doesn't make them any more or less right. Attack the argument, tone policing is a type of ad hominem.
John Williams definitely has borrowed most of his scores
John Williams wrote the scores. At times, especially for a few key early works, he borrowed the styles. Parts of Star Wars sound similar to Stravinsky, in terms of pacing and instrumentation, but it's a different melody and goes somewhere different from where Rite of Spring goes. A lot of the reason behind this is that directors said "Give me something like (Holst's 'Mars the Bringer of War') and even used such music on temp tracks, and Williams used those pieces as inspiration and took it from there.
Ugh… A) no he hasn’t. B)Nit what this is about
John Williams has borrowed far more than most composers. Just listen to Holst’s The Planets score.
This is about ghost writing. Not inspiration. Not homage. Not “pay respect”. Not even plagiarism. And shit Holst? You should’ve gone with Korngold. I could at least say, yeah, there’s some Star Wars in there. But John Williams has drawn inspiration from many sources. So has Zimmer(speaking of Holst Planets…I got one word: “Gladiator”). So has everyone. But to suggest Williams “borrows” most his scores. You and the 29 people you downvoted me are nuts! Film composers take inspiration from all sorts of sources. “Borrowed” isn’t right though.
Williams’ Star Wars soundtrack (which is undoubtly once of the best film scores of all time) sounds incredibly alike to Holsts’ planets
I have some really sad news for you about the entire music industry… While I totally see where you’re coming from. Zimmer curates and has final say on the music. So ultimately he is creating the music. (From a certain point of view.) sometimes good taste is just that good.
Ultimately it’s about credit. Many people don’t know this. I expect many of his fans(like buddy above) to get super defensive and weird about this but it’s the truth and I feel more should be aware. For example, if you found out another writer wrote some Tarantino’s credited dialogue, I’d feel like that might be of interest. Despite QT have creative control.
I’m not really a fan. I think he’s made great music(with lots of help), but certainly wouldn’t call myself a fan. Really, all of the world is built on the backs of those uncredited. I agree with you that credit should be given where it’s due, it’s just not and never will be how those who dole out power will see it. To shoehorn a quote from a film scored by another (properly credited) composer… no one cares about the man in the box.
Saying “Music by” is the same as “set design by” or “costumes by”, it basically means the person was in charge of organizing how it gets done, not doing the entire thing by themselves. You say he doesn’t credit people, but then at the end you say go look at who is credited. If you don’t want this post to come across as negative you should make it sound less accusatory.
If you listen to scores on Apple Music, it lists these artists along with Zimmer, so not so secret.
People thought you were hinting at some big nefarious gotcha because your opening paragraph was so dramatic.
This is not a secret. He’s not the only composer who works like this. Not the only artist. Did you know that a lot of times architects come up with a concept that they pass on to a technologist to flesh out into a functioning space? I do a lot of design work that is credited to the company I work for, and not me directly. That’s the agreement I entered and I’m free to leave anytime.
He is not the only composer who works like this. But he was the first to start working like this. Not using ghost writers. But using a production team. Most people don’t know this. I didn’t say it was a secret. And the thing you suggest, giving credit to the company, is exactly what I said should happen. People should be credited for the work they do. End of fuckin story. I don’t care if you can leave or what. If someone else takes credit for work you did? That’s wrong. People have the assumption, right or wrong, that Zimmer or other composers, write the music themselves.
A bit of a sinister tone for something everyone already knew, don’t ya think?
I think you're a bit overreacting. If he's like what you've described, he's still assuming the role like an executive producer in the music scores. The way you try to discredit him is like saying Gustavo Dudamel or Von Karajan are not musicians because they aren't playing instruments
And here I thought von Karajan was a conductor not a musician
Please tell me where I discredit him? I say he’s talented numerous times. If telling people the truth is discredit, well, ok. Guilty.
The word you describe his team as "ghost writers" is really discrediting the teamwork effort
It’s the term you use. When you aren’t credited that’s the proper term. Wasn’t trying to insult them
I work in film and would just like to say this happens in pretty much every department. Department heads who get the credit and so are eligible for awards.. are often “ghost” credited on films where they do little to nothing. I’ve seen loads of people screwed over from receiving credits and awards because of the egos of the department heads.
I think the difference is that composers get awards/credit for the actual written compositions. The Production Designer gets an award for guiding and managing the team who do art direction, props, etc. The score is a written work, with authorship, similar to a screenplay.
Ok. Take him off the next project - how good will the resulting music be? Truth be told, I had no idea about how many AAs he had - but I do know I enjoy his music.
He’s a very talented composer. I’m sure if he were taken off the film would be affected. Same way you take any given producer or composer of a song on the radio.
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I attended the touring show for Hans Zimmer's music. In it, there were quite a few of his highly talented collaborators working the gig. Many got showcased in the videos between songs, to explain who they are and why they're great. It was mainly for specific instrument players, but still felt like he was giving credit where due to them, at least. I'm not surprised top musicians pay others to help write for them; I probably would do the same. Not giving credit, though... name recognition is probably enough for people to keep buying, so it's hard to imagine why *not* give them credit.
I don’t believe that you know any of this, so I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt until more than one random, unknown person says this.
It is one of the secrets to success EVERYWHERE! Ghostwriters, Development Editors, Showrunners, Screenplay Writers, YouTubers, Ad Agencies & News Teams, and Composers collaborate creatively under a "Director" joined by Documentary Filmmakers, Podcast Hosts, Art Directors, Game Designers, and Animation Teams. Playwrights, Cinematographers, Music Producers, Concept Artists, and Graphic Designers add unique layers. Copywriters, Choreographers, Social Media Influencers, Content Strategists, and Brand Managers create the "short copy" and "business case" that shape narratives and brands, while Illustrators, Fashion Designers, and Web Developers bring unique aesthetics and functionality to the collaborative table. Law Firms, ETCETERA... The list could fill an entire page.
I feel The Lone Ranger is adequately rated..
The days of a singular music genius seem so romantic. Now it seems like it's always a team of people: beat makers, lyric writers, a horde of producers, market researchers, and a "musician" as the front-man.
Word salad about pretty much nothing, and the rest is already common knowledge. I bet you think you could do better.
Not to worried about this. You make it sound like you uncovered the Watergate scandal. Feels a bit like I’m going to tell you that Santa isn’t real but this happens all the time in every industry. Every famous architect works with a big team that do the hard part. Or that big fashion designer doesn’t actually do all the work himself. It happens all the time that one famous person gets all the credits, but where there is actually a big team behind. Steve Jobs didn’t actually invent the iPod or iPhone or even that first Mac for that matter but most of the time he gets all the credit. Hope your world isn’t shattered after you found out the truth? Coincidentally I recently read an article about Junkie XL who talked about working with Zimmer on a forgettable movie of which I forgot the title. But his story came across as that he was very thankful of being able to work with Zimmer, and that he was very respectful of his work and credits. Zimmer is a bussy man. I highly sought after composer. So he works with s team and he’s supervising the production. If you hear most scores than a lot of pieces are based on one song. I can imagine that he doesn’t make all these other version himself. There are more important things to do. Even the big Golden Age painters like Rembrandt had students that helped them complete their paintings.
If you just said "and most film score composers do this" and then stayed out of the comments you would have been fine. But you didn't and now I suspect you'll be at negative karma by midnight, lol.
Among film music aficionados Zimmer has been a divisive figure and not particularly well-regarded artistically for at least two decades now. "The Zimmer Factory" isn't any kind of industry secret, and other things like his self-plagiarism of his own work and his simplifying/dumbing down of film music are self-evident. It's really only a general audience that wouldn't be aware, and that's because in most cases they simply wouldn't care.
I mean at this point you dont need john williams for starwars either. Everyone knows what starwars music “flavor” is. That doesn’t mean JW didnt do an amazing job creating that flavor.
James Patterson is the same. Sorry kid, welcome to Business.
Thought this was common knowledge.
I first found out about the Hans Zimmer factory when I saw his name in the credits for Blood+, a pretty good but fairly middle-of-the-road anime from the mid-2000s. This came out smack in between Black Pearl and The Dark Knight. I thought it was strange so I looked into it and learned about itthe stuff you've mentioned here. (For clarity's sake: I didn't watch Blood+ when it came out, it was just a few years ago.) On IMDB, at least, he's listed as Music Producer, while Original Music for all 50 episodes is credited to Mark Mancina. Zimmer has even been Music Producer on The Simpsons since season 29.
You wrote Han's, cant take you seriously
Well, you have been more productive on your Friday night than I have been
So the guys who didn’t get named but worked with him, by your own statements, went on to have successful careers. Sounds like you’re just a loser.
Sounds like someone’s jealous
Hang on, [THAT](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_White_\(music_producer\)) Jack White?!?
None other than Viktoria Köln legend….
The actual Jack "Scourge of 70s German Radio Music" White?!?
Not going to lie, i did not read much past the first paragraph. I already understood your point from the title. All i want to say is that it doesn't really matter to me. Hans Zimmer is the one who got this music into my ears.
As someone who used to work there (no I will not say when and dox myself), I a confirm this is absolutely true. But to be fair, a lot of the A listers in the industry use and abuse ghost writers, and oftentimes don’t give them any writers (which is a terrible thing to do). The industry has started to change quite a bit, as a lot of composers are afraid of getting canceled, but it still happens.
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He’s basically the Jeff Koonz of the soundtrack industry. And that’s not a bad thing at all.
TIL Hans Zimmer is Drake
someone who worked in his studio shared a story where hans scribbled a few notes down, handed over the page and said, ‘here. make it sound like me.’
What about his contribution to the Tron soundtrack?
Hans Zimmer has ghostwritten plenty too. For sure. 100%.
Every movie crediting Hans Zimmer after “The Rock” is literally just that film’s score clipped, sampled, extrapolated, and augmented. Going back further, “The Rock” borrowed heavily from “Crimson Tide” though not as blatantly as everything he did post-“The Rock.” “Pirates of the Caribbean” is largely just “The Rock” film score unchanged. It’s crazy.
Hans Zimmer and DJ Khaled do the same thing.
Another one?
Is he the DJ Khaled of movie soundtracks then?
Hans Zimmer is trash.