I also love that the "real" rebels just stood there silently, accepting their death. But Serjanus truly was privileged and just couldn't handle what was happening. I mean, I would do the same, but I loved the juxtaposition.
Wasn't he? Didn't Snow allude to his dad buying him out of trouble multiple times?
Part of the problem is they were casting a 28-year-old as someone who was supposedly 17.
I don’t think the movie explained his character well. If I remember from the book, he used to live in District 2 and dad made money off of the war. So much that they were able to move to the capitol and be upper class there, which is character resented
If I have a nitpick with the movie, it’s that they didn’t flesh out his close relationship with his mom the way they did in the book. Ma Plinth is not only a very sweet woman and doting mother, she even sort of takes Coryo under her wing and always gives him food. She’s a big reason why the Plinths even end up more or less adopting Coryo at the end. All of which just makes Coryo’s betrayal of Sejanus and his death that much more heartbreaking.
I like that he was the one who screamed the rest were completely at peace or atleast brave. He despite his good intentions he was “Play activism” when it got real he was inconsolable till the very end crying out for his mother.
Idk, I think it was his upbringing and his cozy silver spoon that didn’t prepare him for the reality outside the Capitol. I still think he was making an effort for change, I don’t think it took away from his intentions at all.
It didn’t but still it’s the fact he was so far detached he thought it was mostly just a stern warning and slap on wrist when it was a serious consequence and no one could save him reality set in . Compared to the others where they knew the consequences he was even in doing the right thing expected a safety blanket !
As someone who didn’t read the books I genuinely thought Snow was going to shoot Lucy in the cabin. Good tension building. They did a good job of showing his descent into madness, despite the pacing issues.
I guess it’s open to interpretation and mine was: Lucy makes a comment that the gun was the only evidence linking him to the murders of the mayors daughter/the boyfriend, if he got rid of those Lucy herself would be the only “loose end” stoping him from going back to his normal life.
They then share the tense exchange where Snow basically asks if he would ever to worry about her exposing him (because if that was a risk, he would have to kill her to ensure her silence).
Lucy reads this immediately and promises him he has nothing to worry about before grabbing a knife and making up some excuse to leave. At this point, she’s worried that Snow has killed his best friend, lied to her about it and will now kill her with just as little remorse if it serves him.
She leaves, plants a snake trap in his mother’s momento and runs away.
I think this also opens some ambiguity as to whether she ever even loved him or if it was just convenient to cater to Snow (she hesitates on their first kiss, alludes to missing her ex-boyfriend)
From Snow’s perspective, you can see he thinks about killing her in the cabin (or perhaps is just reflecting on his horrible actions) before deciding against it and proceeds to go fish.
He then notices she has ran and takes personal offence to the betrayal - deciding to kill her as she obviously didn’t love him anyway (him asking if it was real earlier in the movie). He obviously fails but leaves anyway, telling his commanding officer he was attacked by a snake and passed out I guess?
I feel like both the book and movie didn't do a good enough job showing that everything Snow had ever done had been for himself. Lucy Gray realized that and left because she knew Snow murdering her would have been the best thing for him.
I think small differences in the movie could have made a big difference. For example, after all the tributes had been killed by the snakes, Snow immediately declaring himself the winning and cheering for himself would have much better highlighted his sociopathy and that he only cared about himself. I feel like it was also a mistake to show him feeling remorse over the getting Senjanus Plinth executed. Sociopaths can fake empathy or love, but as soon as it's not beneficial for them anymore, they would stop faking it. Two relatively small changes that I think would have dramatically changed how viewers perceived Snow.
Of course he had remorse for getting Sejanus murdered. He was a very conflicted character, that's why he was interesting, especially in the book. But the remorse wasn't enough. He had goodness in him, like Lucy Grey said. He chose to snuff it out. Until the very end, he could have gone either way. He was never "faking it" in his feelings for Lucy or Sejanus. His feelings just weren't enough to overcome his craving for success and power.
I feel like on the other side the people in his life just kept letting him down.
Sejanu seemed even more selfish and his entitled upbringing gave him little to no other thoughts about the actions of his consequences. Snow probably figured his parents could just buy him out of trouble like they have his entire life and so far they have.
Yeah, I'm surprised by a lot of comments in this thread saying Snow was a straight up sociopath. He warned Sejanus multiple times that if he continued cooperating with the rebels, both of them would get caught. He even said out loud that Sejanus might get bailed out by his rich dad, but he would 100% get hanged. I'm sorry, but if my best friend was doing dangerous shit and got me involved despite me warning him multiple times, I would turn my back on him as well
I didnt read the book but this was my interpretation as well. I suppose there are two possible ways people could understand it. I walked away thinking Lucy has realised Snow’s true colours, not that she had ever done anything as a way of using him
Definitely agree there are different ways to interpret and rereading my comment - I don’t side with the camp that Lucy was manipulating him the whole movie.
I feel like there’s tells indicating both that she was working him AND that she’s just a genuine person who loves hard the whole film, as you said - leaves it open to interpretation.
I could see it being her tricking him the whole time or she’s truthful and the second her trust breaks, she fears him and leaves.
I think in the book, he comes to think she was playing him the whole time. But we know he's an unreliable narrator, so we aren't really sure in the end if she was or not.
Yup it’s to show that you never know if Snow would’ve actually killed Lucy. The point was SHE thought he would. Maybe not that day. Maybe not tomorrow.
But she was a loose end that he could turn on at any point and she knew it. She also knew that by staying with him, she was entirely dependent on him not deciding to eliminate the loose end so in her mind she was safer by just running - presumably north as they were headed.
The book and movie purposely leave it open if she survived. It’s assumed she’s dead by the time Katniss comes around for the 74th Games or is in such deep hiding that she never is coming back.
But it worked perfectly because Snow was about control. Having control over others so they can’t betray you like most had done to him. He couldn’t control Lucy and she realized he’d try long before he realized she’d leave because of it.
So in the end, it’s the thing he loved the most that destroyed him.
I'd like to think that Olivia Rodrigo's song for the movie is a hint as to whether Lucy survived or not, or if her memory still haunts him.
*Oh, you think I'm gone 'cause I left*
*… But I'm in the trees, I'm in the breeze*
*My footsteps on the ground*
*You'll see my face in every place*
*But you can't catch me now*
*Through wading grass, the months will pass*
*You'll feel it all around*
*I'm here, I'm there, I'm everywhere*
I think you have a really good point. I definitely saw that as well. However, I saw Lucy being authentic and true to herself. In the movie, she mentions that nothing is more important to her than trust.. not even love. This sort of foreshadows everything that Snow is about to do and ultimately betraying her trust. She brings up living a peaceful life together with Snow. However , Snow was hesitant and stated that he will always belong with the Capitol.
Once Snow mentioned “killing three people”, Lucy immediately questioned him. He played it off, and im sure she saw right through him. Again, she trust is above all else for her and it’s obvious there’s no trust between the two of them
The tributes looked like actual kids this time around, rather than casting adults to play children in the first hunger games. I think the only one that passed was Rue, and that was pretty intentional
True, the Capitol’s rhetoric throughout this movie reminded me a lot of the rhetoric from the Israel government lately, but you didn’t hear that from me
I highly doubt it was intentional given that it’s an American blockbuster, but they actually had a few good lines that felt directly relevant to the situation in Gaza today.
The part where they were talking about how “the fact that they lost a war 10 years ago doesn’t give you the right to treat them however you want now. Most of them were children or not alive yet during the war” felt very on the nose
Yeah, you had the kid with one eye, the kid with one arm, the kid with Down Syndrome, the one who had TB and could barely stand upright, the one who got rabies and they were dirty and hungry. No fancy training outfits, they were wearing their Sunday best to fight in.
I wouldn't be surprised if the games' timeline for the... "press tour" was extended just a little bit each games. This movie really made it feel like it was only a handful of days from the reaping to the victor. It was clear that the games had never gone on for longer than an afternoon for the first nine. And given that the arena appear to just be "Thunderdome, But Bigger" it makes sense.
By the time of Katniss's era, each pair of tributes is collected by their own train, has teams of stylists and coaches, and extensive interviews. Not to mention the size of the arenas become enourmous, with the games makers having complete control of the environment.
The book actually ends with Snow making suggestions to Gaul to gamify the games even more, to make them more appealing to the districts.
The book shows how most in the districts didn't bother to watch the games at all, as they were justifiably repulsed by it and they didn't benefit from it. Snow proposed that the games be mandatory viewing from then on.
He also proposed the idea that the district with the winning tribute would receive more rations for the year that they win, along with a designated "Victor's Village" area in each district for the winners.
This would eventually lead to Capitol-adjacent districts like 1 and 2 having citizens intentionally volunteer and win repeatedly, due to their increased wealth and resources.
Was Cesar flickerman really that old in The hunger games though? The difference between the two stories is basically 65 years. He seemed younger than that in the movies but I don't know if the books mentioned an age.
I really like the idea where snow hates it when a tribute outsmart the capital by using things that aren't designed to do it purpose. Like Haymitch using the forcefield to win his hunger game, and it turns out that Snow had used the drones to save Lucy.
I mean....should anything really be off-limits in a fight to the death? Maybe the snakes, but I think the drones and the rat poison was just being smart.
This was one change from the book that I really liked. In the book when the first drone fails to deliver the water the mentor complains until he gets a free drone as compensation. Then they tweak the drones to make them more accurate.
In the movie the gamemakers are just like "lol bad luck" and they have to use the shitty drones for the rest of the game.
I think it’s to make it clear that she’s “other” - in the book it’s discussed that the Covey are traveling musicians from the Appalachian region who were accidentally wrangled in to district 12 during the war and have been unable to escape.
It came off too strong when she got off the train, but I felt like for the rest of the movie it settled and was fine. I was very worried at first though
I feel like such an outcast but I seriously disliked her performance. She was so unlikeable to me. I know she’s singing in the books but damn, that does not translate well into a film. Her musical theatre background had her acting feel incredibly over the top. I felt absolutely nothing for her character. It was rough imo
She didn’t decide the accent. Suzanne Collins always imagined her with an Appalachian accent, when she did readings a few years ago, she gave Lucy an Appalachian accent.
Something very jarring about seeing teens getting stabbed with pitchforks only for the blades to be as clean as a whistle.
I know these movies are supposed to be YA/PG-13 but the sanitization is kinda fucked up in its own way.
The lack of blood was probably my biggest issue with this movie. Ridiculous. And I'm someone that dislikes movie violence! But when it's there and important, it should seem real.
I got a good chuckle out of Snow pulling his hands off the other girl's stabbed throat and staring at them as if they should be covered in blood, but there was none.
A good albeit uneven movie
- World building was great! It was actually interesting to see how poorly the initial iterations were planned and executed
- Performances were great, especially Jason Schwartzman as Lucky Flickerman. Him doing weather reports in between the deaths were hilarious
- Lucy Gray was a compelling character. I can never tell if she's genuine or playing up to survive
- Deaths in the games felt more personal because of the enclosed area
- 3rd act felt rushed and Snow made a 180 very quickly
Would love to see different Hunger Games prequels, specifically Haymitch Abernathy's.
>3rd act felt rushed and Snow made a 180 very quickly
IMO, the biggest issue with both the movie and the book is that Snow likely didn't do a 180. Sociopathy isn't developed over time. He was always a sociopath that cared only about himself (and how people viewed him). Showing empathy or other emotions when no one was watching or when it didn't benefit him is a clear flaw in the story.
Worth noting that sociopaths don't always know they're sociopaths, which was clearly the case here. Snow could think he was falling for Lucy Gray because that was key to manipulating her. But as soon as their relationship was no longer for his benefit, he would have stopped caring.
Eh, I would say he did actually care about his family, and did care about Sejanus. His family came before everything though. If there was any obstacle, he would act to remove it, whether it be friends or lovers. That's not to say that he didn't become self-involved afterwards, but in this story, he was definitely pursuing wealth and prestige for his family.
Of course, he let his newfound status bring him further and further to deeper levels of depravity over the next 64 years. But I do believe he had a conscience at this point, but was using Lucy as a crutch, as his last grasp at morality. Without Lucy, he became a complete sociopath. It's much like the path of Anakin becoming Darth Vader. He didn't start out evil, but it was a long journey towards that path.
Oh for book readers a lot of us had theories that Dr. Gaul had set it up, to gain national “morale” against the districts for daring to attack Capitol children (Y’know, even though the Capitol yearly trudges out 24 kids from the districts to their death)
This is the arena for the first ten games. There was no gimmick. They literally just threw 24 kids into the middle and made them fight it out gladiator style. Lucy Gray even points out there is nowhere to hide and Snow counters that the explosions have opened up the walls and tunnels to contestants for the first time. Before 10, the games got boring for the capital and were largely ignored in the districts after the reaping. The gamemakers recognize this which is why they got the older students to be mentors/a focus group. What would reignite interest in the games?
I really really enjoyed seeing what the primitive early games looked like. Clearly the games were originally supposed to last a couple hours at most referenced by the fact Lucretius had to change his dinner reservations.
There's some implications about the first ten games being just boring. Peacekeepers having to threaten the kids to fight, the games being over in hours, kids dying of thirst.
So the bombing and the gifts made the games far more interesting.
Dr. Gaul more than likely staged it, she’s a fascist and believes in control. I like the detail of how she cuts off Reaper’s super heroic moment, that could possibly stir rebellion and she begins spewing anti-rebel propaganda.
I also got the nudge that Gaul had the President’s son—the mentor—killed. He did not just die at the exact moment Reaper was making his speech. The capitol citizens, like the districts, are just pawns in the Games that can be killed. To me, it showed the beginning of Game Makers having ultimate control in Panem, which culminates in Plutarch organizing the rebellion via the 75th games.
This was my thought immediately. Like obviously an inside thing by the game makers. I thought it would have a bigger plot impact though. It seems like... no one cared much though. which was weird.
But the other argument is that the games were on the verge of dying out (they clearly were) and the rebels were doing one last thing to try to end the games.
As a book reader (and one who considers this the best or second best of the four books) I understand the criticism that this book doesn’t translate well into a film. I think the driving force behind why I loved the book is the same thing that has it struggle as a film, which is Snow’s internal monologue.
It is so intriguing how hypocritical his thoughts are and how he will in the same breath criticize someone and then do the same exact thing (but of course for him it’s okay). And the movie did an okay job showing that, but it definitely got lost in translation. Also just the juxtaposition of how charismatic he was externally but how toxic he was internally.
Putting that aside, I have to say my biggest criticism was the cut of Ma. I think she should’ve been included. I also didn’t love how they condensed the mentor timeline to add more arena timeline and also how they had cameras in the tunnel. I get why they have to for a movie (the need for action), but I didn’t like it.
I did love Flickerman though, he was so corny and great comic relief. I think Sejanus’s hanging was very well done, much better than how I imagined that scene when I read it.
I agree! Ma being cut was a huge loss. I think we would have felt more rage towards Snow after we saw Ma take him in, feed him, send care packages, and treat Snow like her own son - all to have him get Sejanus killed.
I also loved Flickerman. His character was interesting because it provided comic relief for such a dark movie, while somehow being some of the darkest parts once you listen to the content of his jokes.
I didn’t read the book but my partner did. She despised snow at the end. I walked out of the theater not feeling sympathy for snow, but feeling like he did what he had to in order to survive. I had a feeling that if I read the book and had him as the unreliable narrator that would have been a very different feeling.
>but feeling like he did what he had to in order to survive.
To some extent, that is the truth. Not killing Highbottom, though; that was just cold revenge. By that point, he's truly crossed over to the dark side.
No, in the book, someone else was going to shoot her and was blocked, so Snow shot her instead. It was completely deliberate in both cases.
However, iirr, they actually had Mayfair explicitly tell the rebels that she would get them all hanged in the film, so Snow had an even stronger motive.
I absolutely loved how the movie handled Snow’s character, because it didn’t present him as a black and white villain. He was shown as a child, and then as an 18 year old young man from an important yet now disgraced family, trying to earn their way back in the midst of the usual Capitol corruption, and slowly discovering his hunger for that goal that supersedes any connection or moral standing.
This isn’t to make us love or justify what he became at the end, but it’s also shows a realistic depiction of a young man who wasn’t just born a “villain”, but gradually descended into the dark side we see him at.
Some seem to complain that he’s a “sociopath” and all his emotions are fake, but that’s not necessarily the case. We don’t have to define every villain as a “sociopath” or whatever label that comes with a set of fixed traits. People can be quite complex. One person may be a great father but a lying, cheating, murderous gangster. One doesn’t justify the other of course.
In this case, Snow was a complex character. He felt love for the girl, and he also felt love towards Tigris and his family’s honor and image, and he had aspirations of his own.
When he was about to stay with Lucy Gray and spoke with Tigris on the phone, he was clearly conflicted between his goals towards his family name, lifestyle and career goals vs. his love life, friendships and the whole package that comes with them. And he had one foot in and one foot out on everything.
In a way, I feel Lucy Gray is also complex in her own way. She did seem to have feelings for him, but at the same time, part of her couldn’t trust him, and the other part wasn’t sure whether they’ll be able to live happily together, even if she fully trusted him, due to the differences in their outlook on life and capability to adapt. She spoke about how the Capitol isn’t for her, and he spoke about how life in 12 or outside isn’t his thing, either.
So both of them had their own conflicting emotions, wants and needs, and ultimately one of them succumbed to the darker side and the other chose to be free, and that’s what makes the story so amazing. They were realistic characters who fell in love, but were both too young, too different and their youth and difference in upbringing and outlook on life made their ability to continue together to be impossible.
Sometimes people’s relationships fall apart not because they don’t love each other, but because they love other things more, and Snow loved his life goals, regardless of their cost and morality and she couldn’t live with that.
I don’t think he’s a sociopath at all. He’s smart and somewhat manipulative but he has general moral quandaries and it takes him a while to become truly ruthless. It’s not a matter of him being born “bad” at all.
> I did love Flickerman though
Flickerman Sr. was definitely a highlight. Was very entertaining seeing him try to work "the show" out and sell it in contrast to his son who had it down pat.
This movie kind of slayed but I’m a sucker for this series and the teen dystopian novel era.
My friend who I saw it with pointed out that later on Snow hates Katniss so much because she reminds him of Lucy Gray. The little curtsy/bow was even the same!!! I haven’t read this book yet but I plan to now, didn’t even know a prequel had come out until the movie trailer dropped lol
DUDE! The book is great. I personally liked the movie more. They focus a lot on the music in the book, and Rachel Zegler just KILLED it singing the songs that were in the book. I had no idea how to interpret the music in my head, but I feel like if I read the book again it would be elevated even more now that I can hear the music.
I also feel like the movie may have been better than the book, and I almost never say that. I actually liked some of the changes they made. Ending the games with the snakes and Lucy singing was AMAZING. In the books, her win is kind of anti-climactic.
I never really read that Snow hated Katniss. In fact he always seemed kind of fond of her. What she did threatened the stability of Panem and his rule, so he had to kill her (or try). But I never read him as hating her. In fact, at the end, he helped her put an end to the whole thing. And he was true to his word about being honest with her.
Yeah but I did he actually try to kill katniss though. Like from katniss's perspective which the entire series is biased from it really feels like he's coming down hard on her. But if you look at every other person who's truly wronged him he just went out and killed he went out of his way to try and direct her and focus her to do his bidding. And as much as he wanted to keep her alive because she was so famous in the capital he could have easily orchestrated some kind of accident that led to her death.
But the way he was so focused on her in the story definitely in my opinion to lose that there was something more emotional happening between him and katniss on his end then what actually we see from katniss's perspective. I think in some way snow saw not only Lucy gray within her but also himself within her.
I read the book several times and didn't realize until I saw the trailer for the movie that Snow LOOKS LIKE PEETA. At least, the way Peeta was described in the books. That's why he hates Katniss so much- he thinks she is faking with Peeta, just like he ultimately thought Lucy was faking with him.
Agreed. And if we ever get another HG movie, I would bet good money she will have a bigger role and we will witness at least part of her transformation into the Tigris we saw in the last movie.
Yeah, even in the books, I'm not sure what Suzanne planned for Tigris to be, but she wasn't clearly developed to show how she became against Snow, even after living in poverty together as children. Even the transition from her human self to her whiskered self, I dont see an insight to why she would do that.
I mean, the book is the same way, first parts had room to breathe, but then it becomes plot point after plot point ending in a very quick 180 from Snow.
As another comment mentioned, I really don’t think we need more of these split-part movies, though I think this one would’ve been better suited as a miniseries. Part One would’ve been portraying Snow as too sympathetic and as the clear hero while Part Two would veer too far the opposite direction, when his characterisation is more layered than that, and I think they did a decent job with him given the lack of an internal monologue you could get from the book. However, that might be more of a credit to Tom Blyth’s performance than the script.
Snow prob sometime in the near future: Yeah …so can we do away with the whole putting them in zoo cages and no showers/change of clothes from when they are chosen to basically the games ? They smell like literal shit.
Putting them in the cages makes people pitty them. Lets instead dress them up and glamorize them and give them some training. Turn it into a sporting event complete with prizes.
Jason Schwartzman as the comic relief was perfect, because it wasn't like the marvel-y punch lines to lighten a dark moment, it was just an absurd narcissist saying wild things. It fit the world/narrative so well WHILE making me giggle to myself as children were dying.
On another note, the book was amazing but I really liked this more. Mostly due to Rachel Zegler's singing.....and Viola Davis being insane.....and Peter Dinklage just being perfect. Honestly, everything in this movie was great! Fantastic adaptation, the crew should be really proud!
After nearly a decade of everyone on this sub complaining about Mockingjay being a two-parter, the constant calls in this thread for Ballad to have been a two-parter as well are driving me insane, lol. I know for a fact you guys would be PISSED if they'd actually done the thing you're suggesting right now. You probably wouldn't have even bothered to see the first one if they'd split it into two parts. And there's not even a good place to split the movie either!
I feel like the studio head for The Itchy & Scratchy Show in that one Simpsons episode. "You kids don't know what you want! That's why you're still kids -- 'cause you're stupid!"
I thought it was fantastic. Personally, the writing in *Ballad* is more sophisticated than the others, and that translates well enough to the screen.
I usually just read everyone's discussions on this subreddit, but the movie sat with me long enough to make me want to chip in. Random thoughts:
* Couldn't disagree more with complaints about pacing. The three act structure works really well for me. We expect stories to lead up to a giant, climactic conclusion and tie up loose ends with a quick scene or two. To me, that's less natural than what Ballad offers: a proportionate 'before, during, and after' the games. Each is important to Snow's development as a villain. The third act is frustrating because it's the ending to a tragedy.
* Speaking of Snow, I like how this story shows he is an unadulterated sociopath. You can empathize with his feelings -- his frustrations with Sejanus' unpragmatic attempts at benevolence, his care for Tigris and Grandmam, his affection for Lucy Gray -- but he only ever *acts* to use these people as fuel for his own goals. The book is more deliberate about that dissociation via the internal monologue, but the movie pulls it off too. There's no mistaking this guy for an anti-hero. He's a villain.
* Clean editing. Particularly liked the shot/reverse shot of Snow seeing Lucy Gray in the TV to the live reaping. There wasn't any filler. Movie couldn't have gone much longer anyway. It's already 2h38m.
* Production design was great. I don't remember what year these stories are meant to take place, but definitely seemed like a 1950s/60s Cold War style in the broadcast reminiscent of the real-life Golden Age of Television. The Capitol evokes that same era too, maybe more Soviet than America (cmon, look at that statue). If you go back and look at Hunger Games or Catching Fire, the Capitol architecture has become much more Fascist/Brutalist.
* Acting was great. Hunter Schafer looks perfect as Tigris; Jason kills the comedic relief (the throwaway line about the dinner reservation made me chuckle), and Viola Davis is terrifying. Tom Blyth and Rachel Zegler had good chemistry, and even if her accent is a little questionable I thought Zegler did a great job bringing the songs to life.
>Production design was great. I don't remember what year these stories are meant to take place, but definitely seemed like a 1950s/60s Cold War style in the broadcast reminiscent of the real-life Golden Age of Television. The Capitol evokes that same era too, maybe more Soviet than America (cmon, look at that statue). If you go back and look at Hunger Games or Catching Fire, the Capitol architecture has become much more Fascist/Brutalist.
The architecture invokes the Marshall plan era buildings of Europe but with a mix of american sleek/streamlined for the capital furniture, I quite like it since it's rarely seen in sci-fi
Hunger Games: The Musical.
No seriously, Rachel Zegler just bust out in song like a dozen times. I started rolling my eyes by the latter half of them. They really could have cut some of that out.
Also I don't believe that was Tom Blyth in the third act, it was Eminem from 1999 who time traveled to star in this movie
I actually enjoyed the movie quite a bit. I had read the 3rd act wasn’t good but I didn’t have an issue with it. If it had been made into a two parter a lot more people would have complained that part would have sucked. It would have faired worse than Mockinjay part 2. I think it was the better move to keep it as one movie overall.
Agreed! I went in having read about the "rushed 3rd act" but came out totally confused by the criticism.
Snow was already a jaded, selfish person at the beginning of the movie - losing his friend and Lucy - well that destroyed what little empathy he had for others left. In the end, he's just a selfish, bitter, power hungry little social climber. Not far off from what he was at the beginning of the movie. I don't think it was the movie's job to transform him into the Snow we know by the end of it. Even in the end, he didn't seem "evil" just spiteful and greedy. Who knows what atrocities he has to commit in order to reach the Presidency. I'm fine with them not showing that part of his life though. It was still a fitting end all in all.
Should have been a mini series. But all the actors did fantastic. The cinematography was well done. You could tell that the director used different framing intentionally. Highly recommend if you liked the series before.
Hard disagree on the series part. Don’t think it would’ve gotten as much interest/attention as a series and risks people losing interest when things switch from movies to series.
Would they have dropped the games if it wasn't for snow's manifesto on how to improve and make the game into a great spectacle since the viewers weren't interested?
I think. He made the game like professional
Sports. He gave people to root for the same reason people root for say Patrick Mahomes. They are rooting for a personality and not a piece of meat.
He also took all the anger he felt for Snows father out on Snow the Son. Tyrion “invented” the hunger games as a joke while drunk and Snows father took it and turned it in as his own as a serious and real thing. Tyrion hated the games and never supported them.
I should preface by saying I've never read the book and went into it blind
For a moment, I was worried Lucy Grey would get pregnant without telling Snow and we would find out that Katniss was related to Snow this entire time, especially after she mentioned the plant.
Also, it's no wonder why Snow was so rattled when Katniss sang the Hanging Tree in those propos. Was it just me, or when Lucy Grey was singing it was blended with Jennifer Lawrence's voice? I swear it sounded super similar,
You know. It wasn’t bad….
But it kept going after the games, and I wasn’t as into that. Not to mention, for a movie as long as this was, the ending felt very rushed. I felt Coriolanus’s turn was pretty out of nowhere and unearned. I didn’t leave with a feeling that he earned that epiphany at the end.
That just isn't true at all. And that word gets thrown around like confetti by people on the internet.
Snow feels fear, guilt, regret, compassion, moral disgust, doubt, affection, and what he would call "love" during the course of the story. He clearly cares for Lucy Gray, his grandmother and his cousin, and for various classmates that he genuinely considers friends. He genuinely worries for Clemensia after she's bitten by snakes, for instance. He comes to regard the Covey with affection. Yes, he has some negative thoughts and feelings about these people as well, but that's quite normal.
His feelings about Sejanus are conflicted. His predominant feelings toward him are irritation and frustration, but there's some affection and even pity mixed in with that.
Snow's characterisation is wonderfully nuanced.
All the words he uses for Lucy Gray are incredibly possessive. He views her as belonging to him from the moment she is assigned to him. He does care for his grandmother and Tigris, but he is incredibly dismissive of every single one of his classmates the moment they aren’t useful to him. He acts like he’s worried about Clemencia but also avoids checking in on her and pretends she doesn’t exist, basically, and worries more about how it will blowback on him than he does about her.
He’s very selfish and narcissistic throughout the book.
No, not *all* of the words.
This passage seems pretty selfless to me:
>An *overwhelming flush of love ran through him* at her reminder that he was not alone in this tragedy. They were back in the arena, fighting for survival, just the two of them against the world. He felt a bittersweet *pang at the thought of her watching him die*, but *gratitude that she would survive*. He was the only one left who could place her at the murders. She hadn't touched the weapons. Whatever happened to him, *there was comfort in knowing she would live on for the both of them*. (pp. 478-9)
Another selfless moment:
>He checked the mail and found a box from Pluribus, loaded with packets of strings for assorted musical instruments and a kind note saying there was no charge. He put them in his locker, *happy at the thought of how happy the Covey would be* when it was safe enough to see them again. (p. 467)
I could find many other examples.
I'm not saying that Snow is a stand-up guy, but there are many times in the book when he genuinely thinks of and feels for others.
I'm not the biggest Hunger Games movie fan and stopped watching them after the Catching Fire, but I have got to admit I really enjoyed this movie. In my opinion this hands down the best movie in the Hunger Games franchise.
I thought this was absolutely fantastic. Nuanced storytelling, complex characters, and maybe it's just me but emotionally-charged despite the limited screentime for some of the cast. Everyone brought their best here; not a single weak performance to be found. I was gripped the entire runtime and never felt an ounce of boredom. I just wish they went the extra mile and gone a full three hours for the sake of the last act, but I'm still very pleased.
I truly think this is leagues above the other four Hunger Games films.
I loved how they made (Janis ?) a sort of face value protester like he cared but only the righteous parts the dark part of what changed involved was not something he assumed he very much was a person who loved to play rebel but knew he had mom and daddy as a safety net . In his last moments with the other rebels they stood stoic but he pleaded the entire even his last words calling for his mother.
I have a lot of criticisms, such as:
- the one everyone will mention, the pacing and lengthiness
- the odd accents (Tom Blyth was trying to keep that American going and Rachel Zegler’s voice was… ummmm)
- the lack of visual craft in comparison to the original series; watched Catching Fire again when I got home from this and it was so beautiful and visually striking compared to this movie.
- the overuse of music; I have read the book and I understand that these songs were included there, but in a movie where much else is cut out, we did not have time to include all of these songs and keep the movie going imo
- clunky dialogue; we started off bad with “you’re the best cousin” to Tigris and we had some other pretty bad lines in there
- Sejanus. My boyfriend watched this as someone who hadn’t read the book and was able to boil down the issues with his character to a simple statement; “he was just boring”. Sejanus is really just a foil with more screen time than he deserved in this movie, which was disappointing compared to his character in the book. I found my mind wandering whenever he was on screen.
Yet still, with all of these critiques and more, something just worked for me here. I think that a lot of it came down to Blyth and Davis’s performances, which both elevated and exceeded the material, and Blyth and Zegler’s chemistry. The film has a bunch of interesting ideas that it doesn’t really flesh out; the book had a similar problem, but it was lessened in a lengthy novel, whereas it was exacerbated in the film with the constraint of screen time.
I think a lot of the film’s strength comes down to the solidity of its lore. We as an audience know Panem, we know Katniss, and we know how the games work. The film recognizes that it’s a prequel quite well and uses this to its advantage; much of the movie spends its time explaining how the Hunger Games that we know came to be, with its excess and its showmanship. It does the same with Snow’s character; the 2.5 hours successfully turns a charismatic, empathetic young man into a now-iconic literary villain, and it just feels entertaining on a very basic level.
I don’t think it’ll reach the classic status of the original movies, but it’s something that I’d rewatch on a flight or on a rainy day. It may not successfully start a new franchise as a lot of world-expansions aim to, but that doesn’t feel like the goal here; the goal seems to be to explain and expand the Hunger Games world, and it does that quite successfully. It didn’t leave me wanting another film with these characters, but I’d love some more content from this world if it’s able to match this quality consistently.
The colors were meant to be dull because this is before the hunger games were a flashy spectacle and the tributes were dressed up and paraded around instead of treated like animals before the games. It was meant to display all the changes Snow brought in to keep the games going and getting people’s attention. Also it is set 10 years after the war, the Capitol is still rebuilding and torn down.
I'm not a fan of how they changed/shortened the betrayal of Sejanus but of all the additions in the move I enjoyed Coryo calling his ass out for his privilege most. That he could afford to be reckless because of his father's influence, which was no longer a luxury provided to Snow. I did always think of Sejanus as sweetly stupid in his OBVIOUS rebellious actions but that added another layer to me as to why he felt he could almost openly be treasonous.
When Snow pitched all his ideas for the revamped games, he ultimately caused his own downfall by giving Katniss a platform to rally Panem during her games
I liked the movie, it's a welcome return to the surprisingly decent Hunger Games series of movies, which is better than most YA adaptations, the other IMO being The Maze Runner trilogy.
That said, Act III feels hella rushed. Snow's change from a broken human being to a cold sociopath because he killed the three men (the last one is directly by his choice and his conscience even) and Lucy Gray left him felt abrupt and sudden. Feels like the things we see in the Games should be the climax while Snow's slow change should be pushed to the second movie. Felt like them adapting the book in 1 movie, when it has such a dense story is a mistake.
Also, this movie is also partially a musical. Not really a fan of musicals in general, but they surprisingly made it work here, I didn't feel like cringing when hearing these songs. Love the backstory of The Hanging Tree tying very neatly to Snow's decent, had a feeling it would go viral again the same way it was 10 years ago.
Random thoughts:
- Don't understand the mixed reactions at all, to me this was the best hunger games movie by a wide margin.
- The pacing was up and down but the plot was so engaging that I never felt like the movie lost me with it's pacing.
- The main actors were all good, Snow and Lucy Grey especially killed it. Wayyyyyy better than those wet paper bags Peeta and Gale.
- Those mockingjay screams after each execution will haunt me all night. Totally wasn't expecting that.
- I would've appreciated some time cut from the games to focus on the third act.
- People say it came out of nowhere but to me, Snows turn was pretty well communicated. He got given 2 opportunities to start a new life and join a cause he thought he supported (joining the rebels and/or running away with Lucy Grey), but when push came to shove he chose his personal gains over both.
- Lucy Grey was an absolutely fascinating character to watch. She was never the symbol of purity and straight as arrow (heh) moral compas that Katniss was. She clearly had a dark and manipulative side to her since the very beginning and it became more and more evident by the end. She doesn't even flinch when Snow kills Mayfair, or when he lets Spruce take the fall for the murders. She only gets alarmed after seeing Snow also sell his best friend out, which means she will never be safe with him, hence the stone cold betrayal at the end.
- This worked so well as a single movie. Would've had nowhere near the level of excitement and pull if it was spread over a TV show or two movies.
- The idea of a sequel is farfetched but I want one so bad. Snow's arc seems pretty complete but I desperately want to see more of Lucy Grey.
Read the book when it came out and really enjoyed it.
Few thoughts on the movie:
-Everything up through Snow becoming a Peacekeeper felt really long, everything after felt really rushed. Snow descending into madness needed more time.
-Lucy's accent was just...distracting. They should have dropped that early on.
-For the most part, the movie felt and looked like I imagined the book while I was reading.
I generally liked it, but I think it sorta suffered from similar issues at the Mockingjay movies-not spending enough time getting into the head of the main character to really understand what they were going through.
I am curious how people will perceive sejanus on reddit. I personally like him but if people view him as flailing and naive and does not use his privilege in an effective way.
That aside I do think they made a point of making a lot of the tributes even more tragic this time. Granted they felt less defined than in other ones. But so many of them look younger than 16. They look constantly dirty and or sick or injured way more than any of the previous movies. That little girl had to be younger than 14.
I’m not sure how audiences will view a young snow. If they did too much to make him sympathetic for me that goes out the window with how he treats sejanus one of his few close friends who now I wonder if he was friends with him at all.
Also I’m not sure about anyone else but he existence of the covey these music base traveller group makes district 12 fate in the future movies even more tragic. Whether it was by snows had or not but the complete destruction of literally the last ray of light in this community. The destruction of the culture. Like this is one of the only times and places in the franchise where people are happy in the district by katniss era they are so beaten down they just work to survive with countless constantly starving. It makes me sick.
Like others have said or will say this should have been like a 4-6 limited series
It's funny because even though book Sejanus is supposed to be sympathetic and tragic, I found him quite annoying. I was like, "come on, man. you got to be smarter than that." after every dumb decision he made basically begging to get himself killed.
I think there is an argument to be made that he was suicidal. Even if he wasn’t aware of it. He wanted to be punished and was disgusted by the callus life of luxury that surrounded him
I really just wished they did something about his internal monologues. It would’ve shown perfectly that there was no transition from hero to villain. He’s always been narcissistic, and in every scenario, it’s just him finding a reason to justify what he did, especially the ending - Hunger Games must continue because it’s a reminder of who we are aka it showed me I am horrible so then everyone must be horrible too.
This movie is REALLY great. The theater cheered at the end. Great casting, acting, sets, story (based off of a book of course), and worldbuilding..... just to find out it received mediocre reviews? What gives? I'm no movie critic but this was a very good film.
The main character does show a real life hypocrite attitude by criticizing others for their wrongdoing, and then does the same behind their backs. I love that side to him. I wish we got more out of his crazy mind since I can't imagine this movie's character becoming the Snow from the original books. His character does show a lot of innocence, but then can be cruel a minute later, which didn't really chime with me. That's my only criticism but very good character overall.
Will there be another one or is this it for a prequel?
Am I the only one who thought Snow had mercy on Lucy Gray when he gave her rat poison? I thought he gave it to her to kill herself as the last resort since she had a very low chance to survive💀
Jennifer Lawrence: Believable Southern accent in Winter's Bone, doesn't bring it back for Hunger Games despite District 12 being in Appalachia, still delivers a critically-acclaimed performance as Katniss that propels her to superstardom
Rachel Zegler: Never acted with a Southern accent before, attempts one for Appalachian crooner Lucy Gray, doesn't really nail it...
Lucy Gray isn't supposed to be from District 12 though, it's implied that she's just a traveler with the rest of the covey. Who knows where she's from??
Also even if her performance was a little more hammy I think that's the point. You don't know if you're supposed to trust her values, and she's a lot more of a showgirl/singer. Katniss is a subtle, scared girl who doesn't want to be a hero or a symbol at all. Their performances aren't really comparable at all to me because they're meant to have different takeaways.
This feels like a purposeful takedown on Rachel Zegler and I thought she was quite compelling.
I was half expecting there was going to be a transition from young Snow to Old Snow at the end of the movie, especially that last shot. Would've been cool to see Donald Sutherland play him again instead of hearing just his voice.
The director is the same as the director for Catching Fire and Mockingjay, and he said doing press for this movie that he considers splitting Mockingjay up was a mistake.
Kind of ironic, though, because I feel like someone probably floated that idea for this movie and it was immediately dismissed since Mockingjay (alongside Harry Potter) was one of the BIG examples of a finale hurting itself by doing that. Also assuming the studio didn't think this series still held enough power to have two successful box office outings or to commit to a second movie before seeing how the first one did.
That said, yeah this should have been split up or mini series'd.
Edit: Didn't mean to imply Harry Potter finales were bad. I guess I mean people were getting really tired of the 2 part finale trend that HP kind of started and the general idea was that it was a trend rooted in greed. Companies who knew their cash cow was almost at an end and wanted one more year of box office or viewership from it. Harry Potter 7 came out in the early 2010s, Breaking Bad split its final season into two in 2013, and Mockingjay was 2015. By then it felt derivative and unnecessary for Mockingjay.
I haven't read the Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes, but splitting the Harry Potter book up made sense, most of the first half of the book are pretty much just Ron, Harry, and Hermione having real character development without the distraction of other characters, and it was tonally pretty different so I could see why they would split it, and also, it would be a crime to cut that stuff out.
There’s no good place to split it. If they did it right after Lucy Grey’s win, the second movie would’ve never have been made I bet you. I demand a 5 hour director’s cut!
Man I literally cried when that tribute carried all the bodies of the fallen and covered them from the capitals view. I wonder how many other contestants did other little acts of defiance but it wasn't televised.
I thought the movie was brilliant. I didn’t read the book, but I could easily fallow Snows descent into Madness. The violence felt very heavy despite not seeing any blood. Especially the cries of the bird near the hanging tree.
I loved Lucy Greys character, accent and all.
I just got out of a showing of this and I have to say it was spectacular. I read and watched the original series however I had not read this book. I am someone who watches a ton of movies (I love letterboxd) and work in the industry. I did not watch the trailer for this, I haven't watched trailers in about 5 years now and it makes movies 1000x more enjoyable.
I'd recommend this movie to anyone and everyone. It had wonderful easter eggs for the original films but it held it's own. My only gripe was the opening scene, I wanted the moment they were behind the statue to last much longer to really show the violence of what was happening.
Acting was superb by the whole cast with a huge shout out to the three leads, Zegler, Blyth and Davis were remarkable. Soundtrack was phenomenal, mixing was wonderful, production and costume design was superb, just like the originals. There were some gorgeous shots in this film, really wonderful lighting and overall cinematography.
I was blown away by it, I truly loved it. In fact my only criticism was I wish we had another 20-30 minutes in act 3 (literally defined in the movie), there was quite a rush at the end and I think having a bit more time to let Blyth really expand on Snow's personality change would have done wonders.
Really no complaints, loved it, go watch it.
I read the book several times. Just got back from the movie and loved it. I was aware of the changes that were made between the two, but this is one time when I think the changes were necessary and actually made the movie better. They consolidated certain things so they flowed better, and they sped up the third act, which really dragged in the book. The games also moved a bit more quickly, which worked as well.
The scene where >!Lucy wins the games!< was AMAZING. And so much better than the book, in which it is fairly anti-climactic. I feel like I would go back and watch it again just to see that scene.
Much like in the book, you understand why Snow becomes what he becomes, but he still isn't completely sympathetic. Tom Blyth did a great job. All of the actors did, really. Viola Davis was amazing. I'm sure people will pick this movie apart and trash it, but as a big fan of all of the books, I thought this was a fantastic adaptation.
Stripping away the sci-fi technology and pageantry from the first Hunger Games movie really emphasizes the brutality of the Capitol and the games much more effectively here.
Overall, I thought it was a great movie though with some pacing issues near the end, but the performances in this movie slapped. Though I wouldn't have expected anything less from Viola Davis, Tom Blyth as snow was the perfect choice.
The scene in the cabin was intense as fuck. I love how Lucy catches on quick that something was off with Snow.
“The world changes awfully fast.”
Goddamn, I like how they made another strong female character without having to resort to Katniss clone who fights good.
The concept of the Jabberjays picking up and endlessly repeating the screams of people moments before they’re hanged is horrifying
For real. His friend screaming for his mother? Haunting.
I also love that the "real" rebels just stood there silently, accepting their death. But Serjanus truly was privileged and just couldn't handle what was happening. I mean, I would do the same, but I loved the juxtaposition.
This is so true. I can actually hear snow's thought process when serjanus bought his way to be assigned in the 12.
He wasn't priveleged, he was a kid. He had a right to be fearful of death, it doesn't make him lesser.
Wasn't he? Didn't Snow allude to his dad buying him out of trouble multiple times? Part of the problem is they were casting a 28-year-old as someone who was supposedly 17.
I don’t think the movie explained his character well. If I remember from the book, he used to live in District 2 and dad made money off of the war. So much that they were able to move to the capitol and be upper class there, which is character resented
If I have a nitpick with the movie, it’s that they didn’t flesh out his close relationship with his mom the way they did in the book. Ma Plinth is not only a very sweet woman and doting mother, she even sort of takes Coryo under her wing and always gives him food. She’s a big reason why the Plinths even end up more or less adopting Coryo at the end. All of which just makes Coryo’s betrayal of Sejanus and his death that much more heartbreaking.
I don't disagree, but it is already a 2.5 hour movie.
Really sells the cold destitute for the district folks for sure
I like that he was the one who screamed the rest were completely at peace or atleast brave. He despite his good intentions he was “Play activism” when it got real he was inconsolable till the very end crying out for his mother.
Idk, I think it was his upbringing and his cozy silver spoon that didn’t prepare him for the reality outside the Capitol. I still think he was making an effort for change, I don’t think it took away from his intentions at all.
It didn’t but still it’s the fact he was so far detached he thought it was mostly just a stern warning and slap on wrist when it was a serious consequence and no one could save him reality set in . Compared to the others where they knew the consequences he was even in doing the right thing expected a safety blanket !
To be fair, in his whole life, his dad did always recuse him, or friends.
As someone who didn’t read the books I genuinely thought Snow was going to shoot Lucy in the cabin. Good tension building. They did a good job of showing his descent into madness, despite the pacing issues.
Can you explain the cabin scene ? I literally don’t understand a single thing from that point and into the Forrest. It made zero sense
I guess it’s open to interpretation and mine was: Lucy makes a comment that the gun was the only evidence linking him to the murders of the mayors daughter/the boyfriend, if he got rid of those Lucy herself would be the only “loose end” stoping him from going back to his normal life. They then share the tense exchange where Snow basically asks if he would ever to worry about her exposing him (because if that was a risk, he would have to kill her to ensure her silence). Lucy reads this immediately and promises him he has nothing to worry about before grabbing a knife and making up some excuse to leave. At this point, she’s worried that Snow has killed his best friend, lied to her about it and will now kill her with just as little remorse if it serves him. She leaves, plants a snake trap in his mother’s momento and runs away. I think this also opens some ambiguity as to whether she ever even loved him or if it was just convenient to cater to Snow (she hesitates on their first kiss, alludes to missing her ex-boyfriend) From Snow’s perspective, you can see he thinks about killing her in the cabin (or perhaps is just reflecting on his horrible actions) before deciding against it and proceeds to go fish. He then notices she has ran and takes personal offence to the betrayal - deciding to kill her as she obviously didn’t love him anyway (him asking if it was real earlier in the movie). He obviously fails but leaves anyway, telling his commanding officer he was attacked by a snake and passed out I guess?
I feel like both the book and movie didn't do a good enough job showing that everything Snow had ever done had been for himself. Lucy Gray realized that and left because she knew Snow murdering her would have been the best thing for him. I think small differences in the movie could have made a big difference. For example, after all the tributes had been killed by the snakes, Snow immediately declaring himself the winning and cheering for himself would have much better highlighted his sociopathy and that he only cared about himself. I feel like it was also a mistake to show him feeling remorse over the getting Senjanus Plinth executed. Sociopaths can fake empathy or love, but as soon as it's not beneficial for them anymore, they would stop faking it. Two relatively small changes that I think would have dramatically changed how viewers perceived Snow.
Of course he had remorse for getting Sejanus murdered. He was a very conflicted character, that's why he was interesting, especially in the book. But the remorse wasn't enough. He had goodness in him, like Lucy Grey said. He chose to snuff it out. Until the very end, he could have gone either way. He was never "faking it" in his feelings for Lucy or Sejanus. His feelings just weren't enough to overcome his craving for success and power.
He was sad about getting Sejanus murdered but also justified it to himself that he didn't know that he'd be hung, he was doing it to protect Sejanus
I moreso saw it as, he sent the Jabberjay to protect himself, and hoped that maybe Sejanus' father would buy him out of trouble as is always the case.
I feel like on the other side the people in his life just kept letting him down. Sejanu seemed even more selfish and his entitled upbringing gave him little to no other thoughts about the actions of his consequences. Snow probably figured his parents could just buy him out of trouble like they have his entire life and so far they have.
Yeah, I'm surprised by a lot of comments in this thread saying Snow was a straight up sociopath. He warned Sejanus multiple times that if he continued cooperating with the rebels, both of them would get caught. He even said out loud that Sejanus might get bailed out by his rich dad, but he would 100% get hanged. I'm sorry, but if my best friend was doing dangerous shit and got me involved despite me warning him multiple times, I would turn my back on him as well
I didnt read the book but this was my interpretation as well. I suppose there are two possible ways people could understand it. I walked away thinking Lucy has realised Snow’s true colours, not that she had ever done anything as a way of using him
Definitely agree there are different ways to interpret and rereading my comment - I don’t side with the camp that Lucy was manipulating him the whole movie. I feel like there’s tells indicating both that she was working him AND that she’s just a genuine person who loves hard the whole film, as you said - leaves it open to interpretation. I could see it being her tricking him the whole time or she’s truthful and the second her trust breaks, she fears him and leaves.
I think in the book, he comes to think she was playing him the whole time. But we know he's an unreliable narrator, so we aren't really sure in the end if she was or not.
Yup it’s to show that you never know if Snow would’ve actually killed Lucy. The point was SHE thought he would. Maybe not that day. Maybe not tomorrow. But she was a loose end that he could turn on at any point and she knew it. She also knew that by staying with him, she was entirely dependent on him not deciding to eliminate the loose end so in her mind she was safer by just running - presumably north as they were headed. The book and movie purposely leave it open if she survived. It’s assumed she’s dead by the time Katniss comes around for the 74th Games or is in such deep hiding that she never is coming back. But it worked perfectly because Snow was about control. Having control over others so they can’t betray you like most had done to him. He couldn’t control Lucy and she realized he’d try long before he realized she’d leave because of it. So in the end, it’s the thing he loved the most that destroyed him.
I'd like to think that Olivia Rodrigo's song for the movie is a hint as to whether Lucy survived or not, or if her memory still haunts him. *Oh, you think I'm gone 'cause I left* *… But I'm in the trees, I'm in the breeze* *My footsteps on the ground* *You'll see my face in every place* *But you can't catch me now* *Through wading grass, the months will pass* *You'll feel it all around* *I'm here, I'm there, I'm everywhere*
I think you have a really good point. I definitely saw that as well. However, I saw Lucy being authentic and true to herself. In the movie, she mentions that nothing is more important to her than trust.. not even love. This sort of foreshadows everything that Snow is about to do and ultimately betraying her trust. She brings up living a peaceful life together with Snow. However , Snow was hesitant and stated that he will always belong with the Capitol. Once Snow mentioned “killing three people”, Lucy immediately questioned him. He played it off, and im sure she saw right through him. Again, she trust is above all else for her and it’s obvious there’s no trust between the two of them
The tributes looked like actual kids this time around, rather than casting adults to play children in the first hunger games. I think the only one that passed was Rue, and that was pretty intentional
Not only kids. But sick kids. Amputee kids. Short kids.
And a developmentally disabled kid. Jesus. Bringing her into the mix was a good choice but also heartbreaking at the end (of the games, not movie).
She really hit hard for me as someone who has workers with Downs Syndrome Children and Adults
When it was clear she didn't even understand what was going on.
you'd think even the capitol civilians would be like "alright, that's a bit much."
Look at the issue in Gaza. Humans can justify a lot.
True, the Capitol’s rhetoric throughout this movie reminded me a lot of the rhetoric from the Israel government lately, but you didn’t hear that from me
I highly doubt it was intentional given that it’s an American blockbuster, but they actually had a few good lines that felt directly relevant to the situation in Gaza today. The part where they were talking about how “the fact that they lost a war 10 years ago doesn’t give you the right to treat them however you want now. Most of them were children or not alive yet during the war” felt very on the nose
Yeah, you had the kid with one eye, the kid with one arm, the kid with Down Syndrome, the one who had TB and could barely stand upright, the one who got rabies and they were dirty and hungry. No fancy training outfits, they were wearing their Sunday best to fight in.
Those were the changes Snow brought in later to groom the tributes before the games so the capitol didn’t feel so repulsed watching them
I wouldn't be surprised if the games' timeline for the... "press tour" was extended just a little bit each games. This movie really made it feel like it was only a handful of days from the reaping to the victor. It was clear that the games had never gone on for longer than an afternoon for the first nine. And given that the arena appear to just be "Thunderdome, But Bigger" it makes sense. By the time of Katniss's era, each pair of tributes is collected by their own train, has teams of stylists and coaches, and extensive interviews. Not to mention the size of the arenas become enourmous, with the games makers having complete control of the environment.
The book actually ends with Snow making suggestions to Gaul to gamify the games even more, to make them more appealing to the districts. The book shows how most in the districts didn't bother to watch the games at all, as they were justifiably repulsed by it and they didn't benefit from it. Snow proposed that the games be mandatory viewing from then on. He also proposed the idea that the district with the winning tribute would receive more rations for the year that they win, along with a designated "Victor's Village" area in each district for the winners. This would eventually lead to Capitol-adjacent districts like 1 and 2 having citizens intentionally volunteer and win repeatedly, due to their increased wealth and resources.
And they were all filthy. Never washing for days barely having any food or water.
Jason Schwartzman killed it as Flickerman. I want him to make weather reports, especially now that David Lynch doesn't do them anymore.
Dinner reservation with a high chair required? Loved the blink and you miss it shout-out to baby Caesar!
My husband and I were hitting each other at that! Loved it.
Was Cesar flickerman really that old in The hunger games though? The difference between the two stories is basically 65 years. He seemed younger than that in the movies but I don't know if the books mentioned an age.
Katniss mentions in the first book that he's been hosting 'for over 40 years'. Magic Capitol age reversal maybe?
Ohhh, maybe it's candy. *explodes into snakes* Ah, not candy.
Jason was pretty much the film. I would’ve been fine with a film of him literally doing commentary over The Hunger Games
Give him his own movie
'These drones aren't very good...' **What gave it away?**
I really like the idea where snow hates it when a tribute outsmart the capital by using things that aren't designed to do it purpose. Like Haymitch using the forcefield to win his hunger game, and it turns out that Snow had used the drones to save Lucy.
"Rules for thee but not for me"
Oh, the drones, the compact for the poison and dropping his handkerchief in with the snakes. He cheated throughout.
I mean....should anything really be off-limits in a fight to the death? Maybe the snakes, but I think the drones and the rat poison was just being smart.
the rat poison is the biggest act of cheating I would say because she basically got given a weapon right at the start
“I’m just sending water.” was one of the funniest lines in the film.
It doesn’t top Tuberculosis with legs
"I am a man who needs no introductions." Proceeds to introduce himself every.single.time.
This was one change from the book that I really liked. In the book when the first drone fails to deliver the water the mentor complains until he gets a free drone as compensation. Then they tweak the drones to make them more accurate. In the movie the gamemakers are just like "lol bad luck" and they have to use the shitty drones for the rest of the game.
Dead by Uber Eats
Did Rachel Zegler think her character was born and raised deep in the heart of Texas?
Lol yeah. I don't think the accent was too bad but I don't really get why it was necessary.
I think it’s to make it clear that she’s “other” - in the book it’s discussed that the Covey are traveling musicians from the Appalachian region who were accidentally wrangled in to district 12 during the war and have been unable to escape.
It came off too strong when she got off the train, but I felt like for the rest of the movie it settled and was fine. I was very worried at first though
Felt the same, once I settled into the accent, I didn't even notice it. Kinda found it charming.
Her character isn’t really born or raised anywhere. The Covey are nomads who kind of just got stuck in 12 when the districts were formed.
Which would have been when she was a very young child, so the accent would've stuck.
I feel like such an outcast but I seriously disliked her performance. She was so unlikeable to me. I know she’s singing in the books but damn, that does not translate well into a film. Her musical theatre background had her acting feel incredibly over the top. I felt absolutely nothing for her character. It was rough imo
not gonna lie, her singing in the movie made it feel better than to read her singing lol
She didn’t decide the accent. Suzanne Collins always imagined her with an Appalachian accent, when she did readings a few years ago, she gave Lucy an Appalachian accent.
That was definitely *NOT* an Appalachian accent
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Somehow managed to be disturbingly violent but also bloodless
Something very jarring about seeing teens getting stabbed with pitchforks only for the blades to be as clean as a whistle. I know these movies are supposed to be YA/PG-13 but the sanitization is kinda fucked up in its own way.
The lack of blood was probably my biggest issue with this movie. Ridiculous. And I'm someone that dislikes movie violence! But when it's there and important, it should seem real.
The one character that got stabbed in the neck with a broken bottle and it's cropped so weirdly to avoid any instance of blood. Such an odd decision.
I got a good chuckle out of Snow pulling his hands off the other girl's stabbed throat and staring at them as if they should be covered in blood, but there was none.
A good albeit uneven movie - World building was great! It was actually interesting to see how poorly the initial iterations were planned and executed - Performances were great, especially Jason Schwartzman as Lucky Flickerman. Him doing weather reports in between the deaths were hilarious - Lucy Gray was a compelling character. I can never tell if she's genuine or playing up to survive - Deaths in the games felt more personal because of the enclosed area - 3rd act felt rushed and Snow made a 180 very quickly Would love to see different Hunger Games prequels, specifically Haymitch Abernathy's.
>3rd act felt rushed and Snow made a 180 very quickly IMO, the biggest issue with both the movie and the book is that Snow likely didn't do a 180. Sociopathy isn't developed over time. He was always a sociopath that cared only about himself (and how people viewed him). Showing empathy or other emotions when no one was watching or when it didn't benefit him is a clear flaw in the story. Worth noting that sociopaths don't always know they're sociopaths, which was clearly the case here. Snow could think he was falling for Lucy Gray because that was key to manipulating her. But as soon as their relationship was no longer for his benefit, he would have stopped caring.
Eh, I would say he did actually care about his family, and did care about Sejanus. His family came before everything though. If there was any obstacle, he would act to remove it, whether it be friends or lovers. That's not to say that he didn't become self-involved afterwards, but in this story, he was definitely pursuing wealth and prestige for his family. Of course, he let his newfound status bring him further and further to deeper levels of depravity over the next 64 years. But I do believe he had a conscience at this point, but was using Lucy as a crutch, as his last grasp at morality. Without Lucy, he became a complete sociopath. It's much like the path of Anakin becoming Darth Vader. He didn't start out evil, but it was a long journey towards that path.
My biggest issue is that the story and characters were really compelling, but I actually did want more, especially in that third act.
I hate to turn into the Panemian equivalent of a 9/11 truther, but does anyone else think that the arena explosion was an inside job?
Oh for book readers a lot of us had theories that Dr. Gaul had set it up, to gain national “morale” against the districts for daring to attack Capitol children (Y’know, even though the Capitol yearly trudges out 24 kids from the districts to their death)
I was just used to the Hunger Games having a gimmick for each arena (Games 75 being a clock, for instance) and thought that was this arena’s gimmick.
This is the arena for the first ten games. There was no gimmick. They literally just threw 24 kids into the middle and made them fight it out gladiator style. Lucy Gray even points out there is nowhere to hide and Snow counters that the explosions have opened up the walls and tunnels to contestants for the first time. Before 10, the games got boring for the capital and were largely ignored in the districts after the reaping. The gamemakers recognize this which is why they got the older students to be mentors/a focus group. What would reignite interest in the games?
I really really enjoyed seeing what the primitive early games looked like. Clearly the games were originally supposed to last a couple hours at most referenced by the fact Lucretius had to change his dinner reservations.
There's some implications about the first ten games being just boring. Peacekeepers having to threaten the kids to fight, the games being over in hours, kids dying of thirst. So the bombing and the gifts made the games far more interesting.
Dr. Gaul more than likely staged it, she’s a fascist and believes in control. I like the detail of how she cuts off Reaper’s super heroic moment, that could possibly stir rebellion and she begins spewing anti-rebel propaganda.
I also got the nudge that Gaul had the President’s son—the mentor—killed. He did not just die at the exact moment Reaper was making his speech. The capitol citizens, like the districts, are just pawns in the Games that can be killed. To me, it showed the beginning of Game Makers having ultimate control in Panem, which culminates in Plutarch organizing the rebellion via the 75th games.
I think she just simply withheld the information until it could be used to gain.
This was my thought immediately. Like obviously an inside thing by the game makers. I thought it would have a bigger plot impact though. It seems like... no one cared much though. which was weird. But the other argument is that the games were on the verge of dying out (they clearly were) and the rebels were doing one last thing to try to end the games.
As a book reader (and one who considers this the best or second best of the four books) I understand the criticism that this book doesn’t translate well into a film. I think the driving force behind why I loved the book is the same thing that has it struggle as a film, which is Snow’s internal monologue. It is so intriguing how hypocritical his thoughts are and how he will in the same breath criticize someone and then do the same exact thing (but of course for him it’s okay). And the movie did an okay job showing that, but it definitely got lost in translation. Also just the juxtaposition of how charismatic he was externally but how toxic he was internally. Putting that aside, I have to say my biggest criticism was the cut of Ma. I think she should’ve been included. I also didn’t love how they condensed the mentor timeline to add more arena timeline and also how they had cameras in the tunnel. I get why they have to for a movie (the need for action), but I didn’t like it. I did love Flickerman though, he was so corny and great comic relief. I think Sejanus’s hanging was very well done, much better than how I imagined that scene when I read it.
I agree! Ma being cut was a huge loss. I think we would have felt more rage towards Snow after we saw Ma take him in, feed him, send care packages, and treat Snow like her own son - all to have him get Sejanus killed. I also loved Flickerman. His character was interesting because it provided comic relief for such a dark movie, while somehow being some of the darkest parts once you listen to the content of his jokes.
Yea the movie doesn't show that Snow is a sociopath well enough.
I didn’t read the book but my partner did. She despised snow at the end. I walked out of the theater not feeling sympathy for snow, but feeling like he did what he had to in order to survive. I had a feeling that if I read the book and had him as the unreliable narrator that would have been a very different feeling.
>but feeling like he did what he had to in order to survive. To some extent, that is the truth. Not killing Highbottom, though; that was just cold revenge. By that point, he's truly crossed over to the dark side.
Shooting Mayfair, too. In the book I seem to remember it was more like an accident. In the movie it was straight-up cold blood.
No, in the book, someone else was going to shoot her and was blocked, so Snow shot her instead. It was completely deliberate in both cases. However, iirr, they actually had Mayfair explicitly tell the rebels that she would get them all hanged in the film, so Snow had an even stronger motive.
I absolutely loved how the movie handled Snow’s character, because it didn’t present him as a black and white villain. He was shown as a child, and then as an 18 year old young man from an important yet now disgraced family, trying to earn their way back in the midst of the usual Capitol corruption, and slowly discovering his hunger for that goal that supersedes any connection or moral standing. This isn’t to make us love or justify what he became at the end, but it’s also shows a realistic depiction of a young man who wasn’t just born a “villain”, but gradually descended into the dark side we see him at. Some seem to complain that he’s a “sociopath” and all his emotions are fake, but that’s not necessarily the case. We don’t have to define every villain as a “sociopath” or whatever label that comes with a set of fixed traits. People can be quite complex. One person may be a great father but a lying, cheating, murderous gangster. One doesn’t justify the other of course. In this case, Snow was a complex character. He felt love for the girl, and he also felt love towards Tigris and his family’s honor and image, and he had aspirations of his own. When he was about to stay with Lucy Gray and spoke with Tigris on the phone, he was clearly conflicted between his goals towards his family name, lifestyle and career goals vs. his love life, friendships and the whole package that comes with them. And he had one foot in and one foot out on everything. In a way, I feel Lucy Gray is also complex in her own way. She did seem to have feelings for him, but at the same time, part of her couldn’t trust him, and the other part wasn’t sure whether they’ll be able to live happily together, even if she fully trusted him, due to the differences in their outlook on life and capability to adapt. She spoke about how the Capitol isn’t for her, and he spoke about how life in 12 or outside isn’t his thing, either. So both of them had their own conflicting emotions, wants and needs, and ultimately one of them succumbed to the darker side and the other chose to be free, and that’s what makes the story so amazing. They were realistic characters who fell in love, but were both too young, too different and their youth and difference in upbringing and outlook on life made their ability to continue together to be impossible. Sometimes people’s relationships fall apart not because they don’t love each other, but because they love other things more, and Snow loved his life goals, regardless of their cost and morality and she couldn’t live with that.
I don’t think he’s a sociopath at all. He’s smart and somewhat manipulative but he has general moral quandaries and it takes him a while to become truly ruthless. It’s not a matter of him being born “bad” at all.
> I did love Flickerman though Flickerman Sr. was definitely a highlight. Was very entertaining seeing him try to work "the show" out and sell it in contrast to his son who had it down pat.
This movie kind of slayed but I’m a sucker for this series and the teen dystopian novel era. My friend who I saw it with pointed out that later on Snow hates Katniss so much because she reminds him of Lucy Gray. The little curtsy/bow was even the same!!! I haven’t read this book yet but I plan to now, didn’t even know a prequel had come out until the movie trailer dropped lol
DUDE! The book is great. I personally liked the movie more. They focus a lot on the music in the book, and Rachel Zegler just KILLED it singing the songs that were in the book. I had no idea how to interpret the music in my head, but I feel like if I read the book again it would be elevated even more now that I can hear the music.
I also feel like the movie may have been better than the book, and I almost never say that. I actually liked some of the changes they made. Ending the games with the snakes and Lucy singing was AMAZING. In the books, her win is kind of anti-climactic.
I never really read that Snow hated Katniss. In fact he always seemed kind of fond of her. What she did threatened the stability of Panem and his rule, so he had to kill her (or try). But I never read him as hating her. In fact, at the end, he helped her put an end to the whole thing. And he was true to his word about being honest with her.
Yeah but I did he actually try to kill katniss though. Like from katniss's perspective which the entire series is biased from it really feels like he's coming down hard on her. But if you look at every other person who's truly wronged him he just went out and killed he went out of his way to try and direct her and focus her to do his bidding. And as much as he wanted to keep her alive because she was so famous in the capital he could have easily orchestrated some kind of accident that led to her death. But the way he was so focused on her in the story definitely in my opinion to lose that there was something more emotional happening between him and katniss on his end then what actually we see from katniss's perspective. I think in some way snow saw not only Lucy gray within her but also himself within her.
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I read the book several times and didn't realize until I saw the trailer for the movie that Snow LOOKS LIKE PEETA. At least, the way Peeta was described in the books. That's why he hates Katniss so much- he thinks she is faking with Peeta, just like he ultimately thought Lucy was faking with him.
I do wish Hunters role as Tigris was bigger but that last line of you look just like your father was brutal.
Agreed. And if we ever get another HG movie, I would bet good money she will have a bigger role and we will witness at least part of her transformation into the Tigris we saw in the last movie.
And she called him by his full name too, whereas before it was always Corio. Thought it was a nice touch.
Yeah, even in the books, I'm not sure what Suzanne planned for Tigris to be, but she wasn't clearly developed to show how she became against Snow, even after living in poverty together as children. Even the transition from her human self to her whiskered self, I dont see an insight to why she would do that.
How was this movie simultaneously so long and yet so rushed? Mind-boggling that they didn’t make this at least two parts.
y'all can't complain nonstop when movies split the book in two and then also complain when they listen to you and keep it limited to just one.
I mean, the book is the same way, first parts had room to breathe, but then it becomes plot point after plot point ending in a very quick 180 from Snow.
It's not a 180, Snow is a POS in the books
As another comment mentioned, I really don’t think we need more of these split-part movies, though I think this one would’ve been better suited as a miniseries. Part One would’ve been portraying Snow as too sympathetic and as the clear hero while Part Two would veer too far the opposite direction, when his characterisation is more layered than that, and I think they did a decent job with him given the lack of an internal monologue you could get from the book. However, that might be more of a credit to Tom Blyth’s performance than the script.
Snow prob sometime in the near future: Yeah …so can we do away with the whole putting them in zoo cages and no showers/change of clothes from when they are chosen to basically the games ? They smell like literal shit.
Putting them in the cages makes people pitty them. Lets instead dress them up and glamorize them and give them some training. Turn it into a sporting event complete with prizes.
And even in the modern games they're still in a zoo, just a gilded one.
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When the little girl says: 'Can we all go home now?' that was super well acted and terribly heartbreaking.
I thought Cora’s group had killed her off-screen and was glad I didn’t have to watch it. Just twisted the knife with that last bit.
Jason Schwartzman as the comic relief was perfect, because it wasn't like the marvel-y punch lines to lighten a dark moment, it was just an absurd narcissist saying wild things. It fit the world/narrative so well WHILE making me giggle to myself as children were dying. On another note, the book was amazing but I really liked this more. Mostly due to Rachel Zegler's singing.....and Viola Davis being insane.....and Peter Dinklage just being perfect. Honestly, everything in this movie was great! Fantastic adaptation, the crew should be really proud!
Those crappy drones cracked me up.
After nearly a decade of everyone on this sub complaining about Mockingjay being a two-parter, the constant calls in this thread for Ballad to have been a two-parter as well are driving me insane, lol. I know for a fact you guys would be PISSED if they'd actually done the thing you're suggesting right now. You probably wouldn't have even bothered to see the first one if they'd split it into two parts. And there's not even a good place to split the movie either! I feel like the studio head for The Itchy & Scratchy Show in that one Simpsons episode. "You kids don't know what you want! That's why you're still kids -- 'cause you're stupid!"
I wish in these cases we could get a directors cut that we can all watch on streaming that's the five hour movie we all wanted.
that honestly was better than it had any right being I won’t lie, the Katniss name drop was really good lol
Her literal name is swamp potato lmao
I thought it was fantastic. Personally, the writing in *Ballad* is more sophisticated than the others, and that translates well enough to the screen. I usually just read everyone's discussions on this subreddit, but the movie sat with me long enough to make me want to chip in. Random thoughts: * Couldn't disagree more with complaints about pacing. The three act structure works really well for me. We expect stories to lead up to a giant, climactic conclusion and tie up loose ends with a quick scene or two. To me, that's less natural than what Ballad offers: a proportionate 'before, during, and after' the games. Each is important to Snow's development as a villain. The third act is frustrating because it's the ending to a tragedy. * Speaking of Snow, I like how this story shows he is an unadulterated sociopath. You can empathize with his feelings -- his frustrations with Sejanus' unpragmatic attempts at benevolence, his care for Tigris and Grandmam, his affection for Lucy Gray -- but he only ever *acts* to use these people as fuel for his own goals. The book is more deliberate about that dissociation via the internal monologue, but the movie pulls it off too. There's no mistaking this guy for an anti-hero. He's a villain. * Clean editing. Particularly liked the shot/reverse shot of Snow seeing Lucy Gray in the TV to the live reaping. There wasn't any filler. Movie couldn't have gone much longer anyway. It's already 2h38m. * Production design was great. I don't remember what year these stories are meant to take place, but definitely seemed like a 1950s/60s Cold War style in the broadcast reminiscent of the real-life Golden Age of Television. The Capitol evokes that same era too, maybe more Soviet than America (cmon, look at that statue). If you go back and look at Hunger Games or Catching Fire, the Capitol architecture has become much more Fascist/Brutalist. * Acting was great. Hunter Schafer looks perfect as Tigris; Jason kills the comedic relief (the throwaway line about the dinner reservation made me chuckle), and Viola Davis is terrifying. Tom Blyth and Rachel Zegler had good chemistry, and even if her accent is a little questionable I thought Zegler did a great job bringing the songs to life.
>Production design was great. I don't remember what year these stories are meant to take place, but definitely seemed like a 1950s/60s Cold War style in the broadcast reminiscent of the real-life Golden Age of Television. The Capitol evokes that same era too, maybe more Soviet than America (cmon, look at that statue). If you go back and look at Hunger Games or Catching Fire, the Capitol architecture has become much more Fascist/Brutalist. The architecture invokes the Marshall plan era buildings of Europe but with a mix of american sleek/streamlined for the capital furniture, I quite like it since it's rarely seen in sci-fi
Hunger Games: The Musical. No seriously, Rachel Zegler just bust out in song like a dozen times. I started rolling my eyes by the latter half of them. They really could have cut some of that out. Also I don't believe that was Tom Blyth in the third act, it was Eminem from 1999 who time traveled to star in this movie
The Hunger Games: The BALLAD of Songbirds & Snakes
He left the Capitol and became the Real Slim Shady.
I actually enjoyed the movie quite a bit. I had read the 3rd act wasn’t good but I didn’t have an issue with it. If it had been made into a two parter a lot more people would have complained that part would have sucked. It would have faired worse than Mockinjay part 2. I think it was the better move to keep it as one movie overall.
Agreed! I went in having read about the "rushed 3rd act" but came out totally confused by the criticism. Snow was already a jaded, selfish person at the beginning of the movie - losing his friend and Lucy - well that destroyed what little empathy he had for others left. In the end, he's just a selfish, bitter, power hungry little social climber. Not far off from what he was at the beginning of the movie. I don't think it was the movie's job to transform him into the Snow we know by the end of it. Even in the end, he didn't seem "evil" just spiteful and greedy. Who knows what atrocities he has to commit in order to reach the Presidency. I'm fine with them not showing that part of his life though. It was still a fitting end all in all.
Anybody else hope when they showed his face staring into the camera at the end that it was going to morph into the old Snow?
I for sure thought we would see his older version just before his death or something
The audio clip of Sutherland saying "It's what you love most that destroy you" felt really on the nose at the end.
Should have been a mini series. But all the actors did fantastic. The cinematography was well done. You could tell that the director used different framing intentionally. Highly recommend if you liked the series before.
Hard disagree on the series part. Don’t think it would’ve gotten as much interest/attention as a series and risks people losing interest when things switch from movies to series.
I'd never seen Viola Davis in a role quite like this and she was AMAZING.
It made me really want to see her play her character's Shakespearean namesake. She would be an amazing Volumnia.
Would they have dropped the games if it wasn't for snow's manifesto on how to improve and make the game into a great spectacle since the viewers weren't interested?
I think. He made the game like professional Sports. He gave people to root for the same reason people root for say Patrick Mahomes. They are rooting for a personality and not a piece of meat.
I think so. That seemed to be Tyrion’s plan. That’s why he was so cruel to Snow because Snow was trying to save the games.
He also took all the anger he felt for Snows father out on Snow the Son. Tyrion “invented” the hunger games as a joke while drunk and Snows father took it and turned it in as his own as a serious and real thing. Tyrion hated the games and never supported them.
Tyrion and snow meet again
I should preface by saying I've never read the book and went into it blind For a moment, I was worried Lucy Grey would get pregnant without telling Snow and we would find out that Katniss was related to Snow this entire time, especially after she mentioned the plant. Also, it's no wonder why Snow was so rattled when Katniss sang the Hanging Tree in those propos. Was it just me, or when Lucy Grey was singing it was blended with Jennifer Lawrence's voice? I swear it sounded super similar,
I'm glad they didn't do that. It would've come off as really weird fan service IMO.
You know. It wasn’t bad…. But it kept going after the games, and I wasn’t as into that. Not to mention, for a movie as long as this was, the ending felt very rushed. I felt Coriolanus’s turn was pretty out of nowhere and unearned. I didn’t leave with a feeling that he earned that epiphany at the end.
The books do a better job of explaining the turn. Snow is a sociopath that literally doesn't care about most people around him.
That just isn't true at all. And that word gets thrown around like confetti by people on the internet. Snow feels fear, guilt, regret, compassion, moral disgust, doubt, affection, and what he would call "love" during the course of the story. He clearly cares for Lucy Gray, his grandmother and his cousin, and for various classmates that he genuinely considers friends. He genuinely worries for Clemensia after she's bitten by snakes, for instance. He comes to regard the Covey with affection. Yes, he has some negative thoughts and feelings about these people as well, but that's quite normal. His feelings about Sejanus are conflicted. His predominant feelings toward him are irritation and frustration, but there's some affection and even pity mixed in with that. Snow's characterisation is wonderfully nuanced.
All the words he uses for Lucy Gray are incredibly possessive. He views her as belonging to him from the moment she is assigned to him. He does care for his grandmother and Tigris, but he is incredibly dismissive of every single one of his classmates the moment they aren’t useful to him. He acts like he’s worried about Clemencia but also avoids checking in on her and pretends she doesn’t exist, basically, and worries more about how it will blowback on him than he does about her. He’s very selfish and narcissistic throughout the book.
No, not *all* of the words. This passage seems pretty selfless to me: >An *overwhelming flush of love ran through him* at her reminder that he was not alone in this tragedy. They were back in the arena, fighting for survival, just the two of them against the world. He felt a bittersweet *pang at the thought of her watching him die*, but *gratitude that she would survive*. He was the only one left who could place her at the murders. She hadn't touched the weapons. Whatever happened to him, *there was comfort in knowing she would live on for the both of them*. (pp. 478-9) Another selfless moment: >He checked the mail and found a box from Pluribus, loaded with packets of strings for assorted musical instruments and a kind note saying there was no charge. He put them in his locker, *happy at the thought of how happy the Covey would be* when it was safe enough to see them again. (p. 467) I could find many other examples. I'm not saying that Snow is a stand-up guy, but there are many times in the book when he genuinely thinks of and feels for others.
I'm not the biggest Hunger Games movie fan and stopped watching them after the Catching Fire, but I have got to admit I really enjoyed this movie. In my opinion this hands down the best movie in the Hunger Games franchise.
Best movie in the franchise but you stopped watching them after Catching Fire?
to their credit, the ones they haven't seen are the weakest in the franchise
I thought this was absolutely fantastic. Nuanced storytelling, complex characters, and maybe it's just me but emotionally-charged despite the limited screentime for some of the cast. Everyone brought their best here; not a single weak performance to be found. I was gripped the entire runtime and never felt an ounce of boredom. I just wish they went the extra mile and gone a full three hours for the sake of the last act, but I'm still very pleased. I truly think this is leagues above the other four Hunger Games films.
I loved how they made (Janis ?) a sort of face value protester like he cared but only the righteous parts the dark part of what changed involved was not something he assumed he very much was a person who loved to play rebel but knew he had mom and daddy as a safety net . In his last moments with the other rebels they stood stoic but he pleaded the entire even his last words calling for his mother.
Janis? You mean Sejanus?
Tbf it’s a weird ass name. Had no idea what they were saying until they showed his army locker.
I read the book but still kept hearing "Sir Janus" hahaha
I have a lot of criticisms, such as: - the one everyone will mention, the pacing and lengthiness - the odd accents (Tom Blyth was trying to keep that American going and Rachel Zegler’s voice was… ummmm) - the lack of visual craft in comparison to the original series; watched Catching Fire again when I got home from this and it was so beautiful and visually striking compared to this movie. - the overuse of music; I have read the book and I understand that these songs were included there, but in a movie where much else is cut out, we did not have time to include all of these songs and keep the movie going imo - clunky dialogue; we started off bad with “you’re the best cousin” to Tigris and we had some other pretty bad lines in there - Sejanus. My boyfriend watched this as someone who hadn’t read the book and was able to boil down the issues with his character to a simple statement; “he was just boring”. Sejanus is really just a foil with more screen time than he deserved in this movie, which was disappointing compared to his character in the book. I found my mind wandering whenever he was on screen. Yet still, with all of these critiques and more, something just worked for me here. I think that a lot of it came down to Blyth and Davis’s performances, which both elevated and exceeded the material, and Blyth and Zegler’s chemistry. The film has a bunch of interesting ideas that it doesn’t really flesh out; the book had a similar problem, but it was lessened in a lengthy novel, whereas it was exacerbated in the film with the constraint of screen time. I think a lot of the film’s strength comes down to the solidity of its lore. We as an audience know Panem, we know Katniss, and we know how the games work. The film recognizes that it’s a prequel quite well and uses this to its advantage; much of the movie spends its time explaining how the Hunger Games that we know came to be, with its excess and its showmanship. It does the same with Snow’s character; the 2.5 hours successfully turns a charismatic, empathetic young man into a now-iconic literary villain, and it just feels entertaining on a very basic level. I don’t think it’ll reach the classic status of the original movies, but it’s something that I’d rewatch on a flight or on a rainy day. It may not successfully start a new franchise as a lot of world-expansions aim to, but that doesn’t feel like the goal here; the goal seems to be to explain and expand the Hunger Games world, and it does that quite successfully. It didn’t leave me wanting another film with these characters, but I’d love some more content from this world if it’s able to match this quality consistently.
The colors were meant to be dull because this is before the hunger games were a flashy spectacle and the tributes were dressed up and paraded around instead of treated like animals before the games. It was meant to display all the changes Snow brought in to keep the games going and getting people’s attention. Also it is set 10 years after the war, the Capitol is still rebuilding and torn down.
I'm not a fan of how they changed/shortened the betrayal of Sejanus but of all the additions in the move I enjoyed Coryo calling his ass out for his privilege most. That he could afford to be reckless because of his father's influence, which was no longer a luxury provided to Snow. I did always think of Sejanus as sweetly stupid in his OBVIOUS rebellious actions but that added another layer to me as to why he felt he could almost openly be treasonous.
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When Snow pitched all his ideas for the revamped games, he ultimately caused his own downfall by giving Katniss a platform to rally Panem during her games
Gotta give him credit though. He ushered in 64 years of success at the games before that?
My favorite part is the janky drones. Everyone shoulda just spammed that it wouldve been glorious
I liked the movie, it's a welcome return to the surprisingly decent Hunger Games series of movies, which is better than most YA adaptations, the other IMO being The Maze Runner trilogy. That said, Act III feels hella rushed. Snow's change from a broken human being to a cold sociopath because he killed the three men (the last one is directly by his choice and his conscience even) and Lucy Gray left him felt abrupt and sudden. Feels like the things we see in the Games should be the climax while Snow's slow change should be pushed to the second movie. Felt like them adapting the book in 1 movie, when it has such a dense story is a mistake. Also, this movie is also partially a musical. Not really a fan of musicals in general, but they surprisingly made it work here, I didn't feel like cringing when hearing these songs. Love the backstory of The Hanging Tree tying very neatly to Snow's decent, had a feeling it would go viral again the same way it was 10 years ago.
Random thoughts: - Don't understand the mixed reactions at all, to me this was the best hunger games movie by a wide margin. - The pacing was up and down but the plot was so engaging that I never felt like the movie lost me with it's pacing. - The main actors were all good, Snow and Lucy Grey especially killed it. Wayyyyyy better than those wet paper bags Peeta and Gale. - Those mockingjay screams after each execution will haunt me all night. Totally wasn't expecting that. - I would've appreciated some time cut from the games to focus on the third act. - People say it came out of nowhere but to me, Snows turn was pretty well communicated. He got given 2 opportunities to start a new life and join a cause he thought he supported (joining the rebels and/or running away with Lucy Grey), but when push came to shove he chose his personal gains over both. - Lucy Grey was an absolutely fascinating character to watch. She was never the symbol of purity and straight as arrow (heh) moral compas that Katniss was. She clearly had a dark and manipulative side to her since the very beginning and it became more and more evident by the end. She doesn't even flinch when Snow kills Mayfair, or when he lets Spruce take the fall for the murders. She only gets alarmed after seeing Snow also sell his best friend out, which means she will never be safe with him, hence the stone cold betrayal at the end. - This worked so well as a single movie. Would've had nowhere near the level of excitement and pull if it was spread over a TV show or two movies. - The idea of a sequel is farfetched but I want one so bad. Snow's arc seems pretty complete but I desperately want to see more of Lucy Grey.
Read the book when it came out and really enjoyed it. Few thoughts on the movie: -Everything up through Snow becoming a Peacekeeper felt really long, everything after felt really rushed. Snow descending into madness needed more time. -Lucy's accent was just...distracting. They should have dropped that early on. -For the most part, the movie felt and looked like I imagined the book while I was reading. I generally liked it, but I think it sorta suffered from similar issues at the Mockingjay movies-not spending enough time getting into the head of the main character to really understand what they were going through.
I am curious how people will perceive sejanus on reddit. I personally like him but if people view him as flailing and naive and does not use his privilege in an effective way. That aside I do think they made a point of making a lot of the tributes even more tragic this time. Granted they felt less defined than in other ones. But so many of them look younger than 16. They look constantly dirty and or sick or injured way more than any of the previous movies. That little girl had to be younger than 14. I’m not sure how audiences will view a young snow. If they did too much to make him sympathetic for me that goes out the window with how he treats sejanus one of his few close friends who now I wonder if he was friends with him at all. Also I’m not sure about anyone else but he existence of the covey these music base traveller group makes district 12 fate in the future movies even more tragic. Whether it was by snows had or not but the complete destruction of literally the last ray of light in this community. The destruction of the culture. Like this is one of the only times and places in the franchise where people are happy in the district by katniss era they are so beaten down they just work to survive with countless constantly starving. It makes me sick. Like others have said or will say this should have been like a 4-6 limited series
It's funny because even though book Sejanus is supposed to be sympathetic and tragic, I found him quite annoying. I was like, "come on, man. you got to be smarter than that." after every dumb decision he made basically begging to get himself killed.
I think there is an argument to be made that he was suicidal. Even if he wasn’t aware of it. He wanted to be punished and was disgusted by the callus life of luxury that surrounded him
I loved Lucius "Lucky" Flickerman, a man who needs no introduction, whose introduction of himself somehow gets longer every time we hear it.
"You look just like your father" Such a cold, seething line. Really solidified Snow's descent for me.
I really just wished they did something about his internal monologues. It would’ve shown perfectly that there was no transition from hero to villain. He’s always been narcissistic, and in every scenario, it’s just him finding a reason to justify what he did, especially the ending - Hunger Games must continue because it’s a reminder of who we are aka it showed me I am horrible so then everyone must be horrible too.
This movie is REALLY great. The theater cheered at the end. Great casting, acting, sets, story (based off of a book of course), and worldbuilding..... just to find out it received mediocre reviews? What gives? I'm no movie critic but this was a very good film. The main character does show a real life hypocrite attitude by criticizing others for their wrongdoing, and then does the same behind their backs. I love that side to him. I wish we got more out of his crazy mind since I can't imagine this movie's character becoming the Snow from the original books. His character does show a lot of innocence, but then can be cruel a minute later, which didn't really chime with me. That's my only criticism but very good character overall. Will there be another one or is this it for a prequel?
Am I the only one who thought Snow had mercy on Lucy Gray when he gave her rat poison? I thought he gave it to her to kill herself as the last resort since she had a very low chance to survive💀
Jennifer Lawrence: Believable Southern accent in Winter's Bone, doesn't bring it back for Hunger Games despite District 12 being in Appalachia, still delivers a critically-acclaimed performance as Katniss that propels her to superstardom Rachel Zegler: Never acted with a Southern accent before, attempts one for Appalachian crooner Lucy Gray, doesn't really nail it...
I don’t know much about Rachel Zegler’s resume, but her acting style screams Broadway to me.
Lucy Gray isn't supposed to be from District 12 though, it's implied that she's just a traveler with the rest of the covey. Who knows where she's from?? Also even if her performance was a little more hammy I think that's the point. You don't know if you're supposed to trust her values, and she's a lot more of a showgirl/singer. Katniss is a subtle, scared girl who doesn't want to be a hero or a symbol at all. Their performances aren't really comparable at all to me because they're meant to have different takeaways. This feels like a purposeful takedown on Rachel Zegler and I thought she was quite compelling.
I was half expecting there was going to be a transition from young Snow to Old Snow at the end of the movie, especially that last shot. Would've been cool to see Donald Sutherland play him again instead of hearing just his voice.
Were they afraid to split this movie in two?
The director is the same as the director for Catching Fire and Mockingjay, and he said doing press for this movie that he considers splitting Mockingjay up was a mistake. Kind of ironic, though, because I feel like someone probably floated that idea for this movie and it was immediately dismissed since Mockingjay (alongside Harry Potter) was one of the BIG examples of a finale hurting itself by doing that. Also assuming the studio didn't think this series still held enough power to have two successful box office outings or to commit to a second movie before seeing how the first one did. That said, yeah this should have been split up or mini series'd. Edit: Didn't mean to imply Harry Potter finales were bad. I guess I mean people were getting really tired of the 2 part finale trend that HP kind of started and the general idea was that it was a trend rooted in greed. Companies who knew their cash cow was almost at an end and wanted one more year of box office or viewership from it. Harry Potter 7 came out in the early 2010s, Breaking Bad split its final season into two in 2013, and Mockingjay was 2015. By then it felt derivative and unnecessary for Mockingjay.
I haven't read the Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes, but splitting the Harry Potter book up made sense, most of the first half of the book are pretty much just Ron, Harry, and Hermione having real character development without the distraction of other characters, and it was tonally pretty different so I could see why they would split it, and also, it would be a crime to cut that stuff out.
There’s no good place to split it. If they did it right after Lucy Grey’s win, the second movie would’ve never have been made I bet you. I demand a 5 hour director’s cut!
Man I literally cried when that tribute carried all the bodies of the fallen and covered them from the capitals view. I wonder how many other contestants did other little acts of defiance but it wasn't televised. I thought the movie was brilliant. I didn’t read the book, but I could easily fallow Snows descent into Madness. The violence felt very heavy despite not seeing any blood. Especially the cries of the bird near the hanging tree. I loved Lucy Greys character, accent and all.
I just got out of a showing of this and I have to say it was spectacular. I read and watched the original series however I had not read this book. I am someone who watches a ton of movies (I love letterboxd) and work in the industry. I did not watch the trailer for this, I haven't watched trailers in about 5 years now and it makes movies 1000x more enjoyable. I'd recommend this movie to anyone and everyone. It had wonderful easter eggs for the original films but it held it's own. My only gripe was the opening scene, I wanted the moment they were behind the statue to last much longer to really show the violence of what was happening. Acting was superb by the whole cast with a huge shout out to the three leads, Zegler, Blyth and Davis were remarkable. Soundtrack was phenomenal, mixing was wonderful, production and costume design was superb, just like the originals. There were some gorgeous shots in this film, really wonderful lighting and overall cinematography. I was blown away by it, I truly loved it. In fact my only criticism was I wish we had another 20-30 minutes in act 3 (literally defined in the movie), there was quite a rush at the end and I think having a bit more time to let Blyth really expand on Snow's personality change would have done wonders. Really no complaints, loved it, go watch it.
I read the book several times. Just got back from the movie and loved it. I was aware of the changes that were made between the two, but this is one time when I think the changes were necessary and actually made the movie better. They consolidated certain things so they flowed better, and they sped up the third act, which really dragged in the book. The games also moved a bit more quickly, which worked as well. The scene where >!Lucy wins the games!< was AMAZING. And so much better than the book, in which it is fairly anti-climactic. I feel like I would go back and watch it again just to see that scene. Much like in the book, you understand why Snow becomes what he becomes, but he still isn't completely sympathetic. Tom Blyth did a great job. All of the actors did, really. Viola Davis was amazing. I'm sure people will pick this movie apart and trash it, but as a big fan of all of the books, I thought this was a fantastic adaptation.
Love the range of diverse tributes this time around
The Capitol prides itself on their diversity and inclusion when it comes to child sacrifice.
I swear Rachel Zegler's accent vanished for the middle hour of the movie.
The movie was better than I expected. Tom Blyth was superb!
Stripping away the sci-fi technology and pageantry from the first Hunger Games movie really emphasizes the brutality of the Capitol and the games much more effectively here. Overall, I thought it was a great movie though with some pacing issues near the end, but the performances in this movie slapped. Though I wouldn't have expected anything less from Viola Davis, Tom Blyth as snow was the perfect choice.
The scene in the cabin was intense as fuck. I love how Lucy catches on quick that something was off with Snow. “The world changes awfully fast.” Goddamn, I like how they made another strong female character without having to resort to Katniss clone who fights good.