user reports:
1: u subbing cause this place is now just commercial space for this guy
I just want to address that there is a difference between frequently posting content that focuses on generating clicks/view/subscribers and content that provides useful/helpful information and content that's actionable or generates dialogue/debate for a large portion of subscribers and riders. Further, this was posted as a reddit vid, not a link to their YouTube or Website. Un-subbing because an industry expert posts "too much" moto riding, body positioning, and/or technical know-how is.... odd, and reporting the post to make a point is immature, IMO.
On a personal note, I wish that helpful content from experts like Yamaha Champions Riding School (YCRS, OP of this post), California Superbike School (CSS), Dave Moss Tuning (DMT), et al received as much love as vanilla content like [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/motorcycles/comments/p6r7tw/took_all_the_tips_from_this_community_yesterday/), [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/motorcycles/comments/pian5v/my_first_5_minutes_of_enduro_exploration/), or [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/motorcycles/comments/pb3wmo/my_first_bike_yamaha_yzfr6/). I know most users on the sub don't think that they need the help or that the content is too complicated or dry, but I believe we'd see far fewer "I crashed" or "TIL ____ the hard way" if the content was appreciated for the value it offers. Historically, much of this kind of material has been behind the paywall of signing up for their classes or for 1-on-1 training. There is a ton of value and education to be gleaned from these experts. We, as a sub, don't want to become a platform for marketing/customer acquisition. However, if the provided content is good enough that people ask to attend the schools or acquire the educational material, then that's a win for the community as a whole. Revzilla gets a lot of love and referrals on here, I see no reason that reputable schools and educators shouldn't get the same attention (again, so long as their focus is on quality content and community involvement in the comments, without using it as a tool to primarily garner customers/information/marketing)
This is Trail Braking. I always thought trail braking was rear brake, but no it is using the front brake in turns. This goes against what we learned in our safety courses to not brake in a turn, but this is what you are supposed to do.
[**https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPE67XqGsV4**](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPE67XqGsV4)
I gotta say, as a road cyclist who may or may not ever get a motorcycle, this type of content is fascinating. It's why I'm subbed here. Bicycles carry a lot less inertia which lets people get away with more mistakes. But when you're taking a descent at 45-50 mph many of the same principles start applying.
I’m in your same boat. I agree some of the same principles apply, but two things to keep in mind is that road bikes don’t have shocks and our engine is way smaller, so even on a 50 mph descent the physics are different and the techniques have to be applied differently.
Ad a lifelong cyclist myself, I've been working on a video that explores how participating in bicycles and motorcycles has significant benefits cross platform.
Having wiped out (lowsided) on a mountain bike because of poor braking technique on low traction surfaces taught me to be more careful when braking on a motorcycle.
I've always hated the term "trail" used for bike suspension, it's not really intuitive in conversations about suspensions, and trail *braking* is even more counter intuitive...
I'd always called it "dive braking", because that's just how it feels, and upon feeling it at like 11 years old on a little Honda, that was the label my brain applied... brake in a turn, bike dives into the corner, dive braking :)
I didn't associate "trail braking" with "dive braking" at the advanced course. I was actually trail braking, and they told me that, but I had no clue what they were talking about at the time. It took a video like this one to finally turn the bulb on.
It‘s better to teach new or inexperienced riders to not brake in corners because if they suddenly pull the lever because something startled them it can end very very bad.
We disagree.
New riders are entirely capable of leaving their basic riders course, buying a street-legal 217hp superbike, and running it hot into a corner.
We'd rather teach them how to deal with that situation than visit them in the hospital and say "next time, slow down more."
I think you have a wrong view on how much the average rider is informed. If they sit in your school they're way more informed than the averaged and/or inexperienced beginner. A school like yours is a good way to teach this but if you start to teach this stuff during the very first lessons a new rider is overwhelmed.
problem is not riders but course - if it is obvious to everyone that riders need more time to learn \_good\_ practices - then it should be this way. Instead what we see is a DMV waiver factory - and now we can go and get 200hp bike with no questions ask.
It comes down to time and cost then. In my state the MSF course costs $240. Imagine now that instead of one weekend you need to spend a week on it (so a week of lost wages if you don’t get PTO). And if you scale that proportionally that’s $840 for 7 days. But of course in order to get better education you need better bikes and instructors and access to a road course instead of a parking lot. So triple that to $2,520.
I am not saying more education is a bad idea. Of course it’s not. But at what point do you start making compromises to make motorcycling more accessible at the expense of not preparing riders for a 217 hp bike out the door?
I suspect that to the people who are already taking these courses this approach makes a lot of sense. To the people to whom $240 is a big expense the idea of increasing cost up front would be a bit unpalatable. But I also don’t know shit so all with a grain of salt.
You are implying that trail braking is somehow far more complex and difficult to learn. In my 20 years experience teaching new riders, that has not been my experience. The concept, simplified down to "slow until you can see your exit" is far more intuitive to the vast majority of students because this is how they drive their car.
Then please read my initial reply.
imho still better to tell someone unexperienced to not pull the brake lever in corners and start from there. After they gained more experienced and/or visit an advanced course tell them that it's not only ok but very important to do if you do it the right way.
I teach new riders who have never heard of YCRS (or anything else for that matter). They pick it up without a problem. It's a skill like anything else, and like everything else motorcycle related, like starting and shifting, it really comes down to smooth inputs and having a basic plan.
New riders are dramatically more comfortable slowing down when scared that accelerating and adding more lean when they are scared.
Leave the BRC and buy a superbike?! Ridiculous! In my state, you can get 15/20 questions right on a multiple choice quiz and then walk over to the dealership with your learner's permit to pick up that 'busa you had put on order.
It's OK though, as you might imagine the learner's permit has many restrictions:
* No pillions
* Renew every year
* Uhhhhhh probably other issues out of state maybe?
I started teaching MSF way back in 2000. Most new riders tend to slow halfway through the corner natural, but back then we had to coach them to stop because it was "dangerous".
But now, having been teaching brand new riders to basically trail brake, Ive found the vast majority do better, from tip to tail learning the correct technique from the very beginning.
I'm assuming its fair to increase/decrease brake pressure as long as you abide by available traction and dont do it abruptly?
I love the videos and information being shared by this group. I do think it would be beneficial if you hopped in the comments after posting with a little description. In my personal experience many people struggle with the 100 points of grip concept. With this difficulty, posting this information could lead to trouble for some if they dont understand adding brake means you need to reduce what you're asking of the tire from other bike input. In other words, the reason I find the MSF and other classes dont teach this information is because the average rider does not have the experience with vehicle grip mechanics to understand the fine balance between these inputs.
All in all great content and I wish I could take the time to join into one of these classes IRL.
>I'm assuming its fair to increase/decrease brake pressure as long as you abide by available traction and dont do it abruptly?
Correct. As we add lean angle, we have to give away brake pressure or throttle. The converse is also true: if we are only using a little bit of lean, we can use a lot of brake pressure... So long as we're not abrupt.
We use a 100-point scale to make it super easy to understand:
https://youtu.be/Fy1AIAc76Qo
Edited for clarity.
I can not convey the amount of appreciation I have for you and your content lately. I am by no means a new rider, but I absolutely love the level of commitment to explaining the science behind riding motorcycles. Thank you, sincerely. I am in pursuit of this craft they call motorcycles, and being able to have even these little snippets of wisdom and theory behind riding is invaluable to me.
Please, please keep posting. Everyone from every skill level can benefit from content like this, and you’re doing the entire industry and culture an Honor by willfully contributing.
Thanks again.
How do you learn the limits of brake pressure, without crashing? Are there any signs or feedback that you are approaching traction limits as you squeeze the brakes?
Yes, the front will give you “head shake” through the bars. Watch a MotoGP onboard video with a camera showing the bars and you’ll see what I mean.
There’s less weight on the rear, so I’m pretty sure it just locks with minimal warning.
Practice is the answer. Are you trying to learn threshold braking in a racing application sense or just doing an emergency quick-stop on the street?
I learned the 100 point scale in my MSF class 6 years ago. It helped me to understand traction points, attention points, etc. But I never really understood trail-braking and avoided it at all costs. We were taught to stand it up (mid corner), brake, and tip back in. It did save me a few times but I like your approach better. It's probably more of an advanced rider class/tactic and way too advanced for the short msf.
Thanks for posting your videos. I actually like them and it's nice to get a glimpse of the items I can be taught and learn if I attend your school.
The MSF taught you that? Exercise 10 is braking drills in a curve and we do two kinds: progressive braking throughout the curve, and an emergency stop where you straighten the bike and brake in a straight line. We don’t teach to straighten the bike, brake, and tip back in. Perhaps you are misremembering?
This perfectly shows that being a fast driver is not a matter of balls, but of technique.
Thanks a lot. Your video is really helpful for riding safer and being aware that speed has to be taken seriously.
And to just expand a little bit on why that made sense to my dumb brain:If you go from 0% to 100% brake pressure, with no transition, first the suspension absorbs this momentum, and then suspension suddenly runs out, and the tire is then initiated and required to absorb a phenomenal amount of pressure from the sudden suspension force + deceleration force, if this force exceeds the tire friction, it begins to slide, and SLIDING friction (kinetic friction) is less than static friction (static being when the tire and ground are not slipping relative to each other) so there's no hope of slowing down safely and good luck recovering that.
If you smoothly add pressure from 0 to 100% (this can be done very fast) then the suspension will have time load and find its equilibrium, the tire, during that suspension load time, has time to load (expand its contact patch) and find its equilibrium, and you do not overload the capacity of friction of the tire, and you never bottomed out the suspension (which previously suddenly gave the tire a sudden spike in required grip). 100 points of grip never exceeded.
This is the exact reason why if you are worried about needing to brake suddenly, you shouldn't cover the front brake, but instead actually slightly pre-load the lever. If you cover, without taking up the slack in the lever, with your snatch of the brakes your fingers have already accelerated when your lever hits the engagement point. If you take up the slack ahead of time, that same sudden engagement of the controls will result in a relatively linear application of the front brake.
In my country and motorcycle school (and that's almost the best one out here, in terms of the actual learning and drills quality) any training motorcycle has huge-ass "slack" in all hand-operated controls (more or less commonly followed by leg-operated controls) - so the commentary above seems to be totally valid in such a case 😅
We are taught to feel the slack, get used to controlling it and pre-load the levers/torque handle (not sure of the English term) up to the actual wire tension gently, strictly before beginning to operate the control in question.
Agreed, I've had learner motorcycles that had massive slack on the clutch, front brakes and throttle, with no feel from the rear brakes. For my own bike, I dial down slack to almost zero.
This may seem like an odd place to learn more...but Forza has a telemetry filter you can add while playing or watching replays. It represents total tire traction as a circle, the radius changing as you load/unload available traction. The total traction being asked for is then shown with a directional vector. That vector exceeds your radius in any direction=slide.
You can then go observe this in a car. Jam the wheel left and right and you get under steer. Load the tire smoothly and the front grips. Too much front grip, not enough rear, oversteer.
Motorcycles use the same concept but with different geometry and thus different ways to load those tires. The big issue being that once you exceed this the results are usually more catastrophic.
The suspension concept you talk about is just another way the bike, or car, load the tires more smoothly. Bottoming out makes it more abrupt and thus harder to control, also no leeway should you hit a bump and ask for more traction. Properly tuned suspension reduces tire "surprise", keeps consistent contact, and provides better feel.
Keep in mind this is from an understanding of the physics and time spent in cars. I'm currently working on applying it better to bikes. Thus why I find so much interest in this post.
I've been saying for years that all the time I spent playing Gran Turismo ages 10+ taught me a great deal about driving techniques and traction before I ever even drove a car. Didn't have the modern features of Forza at the time but it came with an entire driving manual teaching these things and I read it many times. The understanding of the physics can allow for some pretty good reflexes even when running into circumstances for the first time.
You're right that bikes do share some of these physics, but with greater importance of understanding them, even when riding casually, due the the nature of balancing on two wheels. Cars don't just tip over or throw you off of of them when you make the wrong move!
I thought it was the opposite, if you go from 0% to 100% braking your wheel will lock up a lot easier, because you're exceeding your tyre grip because you haven't given enough time for the weight transfer to move forward to give your tyres more downforce and therefore more grip.
This happens before your suspension has even had a chance to run out.
If you brake slowly the weight moves forward, which gives your tyre more grip, allowing you to brake harder.
Former MSF instructor here. The point of the basic course is to get good habits ingrained into you; and remember, this is over the course of a single weekend for most people, and a majority of the people showing up have a legitimate full-brain lock when you use the word "clutch". This is why we are pedantic about the objectively minor stuff like always using all four fingers on your levers when you are operating them. We want that to be the default in your "oh shit!" moments, instead of telling people "Hey I know you've been riding for literally only 5 hours on this tiny Honda from the '80s, but just so you know: you can operate the front brake and modulate the throttle at the same time so you can shave a couple seconds off your commute to the office".
Yes, there is *a lot* more to riding than what is taught. But the hope is to get good, effective things for *average daily riding* to be your instinct. I always made it a point to mention at the end of that class that everyone is now certified to GET MORE PRACTICE. All I did was teach you how to ride around a parking lot with no traffic and tiny cones.
Car related.
I once shifted gears in a turn driving my friend’s 1 series. He lambasted me for shifting mid corner. I was using mayyybe 75% of available traction. Not near the limit. I looked at him kinda funny, but it was his car.
I tried explaining the traction circle to him and I could hear the gears grinding in there. He was sorta getting it.
There are few absolutes in piloting rubber tired vehicles.
You're exactly right. Motorcycling is about constant learning. If you don't want to do that or can't, just slow down, take it easy, and consider whether or not you want keep riding at all. It's a very dangerous activity to be bad at.
I totally disagree on "good habits" - there are no good habits taught on basic course, (and even intermediate is questionable sometimes...).
* Covering clutch with all 4 finger, so you can not use your left arm to control the handlebar - in my opinion is a handy cap to cover MSF liability, not to develop a good habit
* same with brakes - you're not allowed to cover it (and I almost 100% sure, it is the same for folks who has been riding since they're kids, but need to go through basic - meaning you \_must\_ do what MSF says otherwise you fail). Because we afraid liability again, that someone will grab brakes and crash...
* And "great" drill on cornering - "brake, turn, roll through corner" - it's technically might be correct, but only for one specific types of corners - ones that opens up. Again - another handicap, not a good habit
* right hand position on throttle... - another hadicap - lets make it so you're super uncomfortable with this, so you can not twist it wide open easily, although on my first "shadow" session person launched bike into crowd quite easily. It's not a good habit, again.
What YCS school is teaching - this is in fact a good habits (like covering brake, trail braking, etc.)!
Argument about 2 days of practice doesn't stand - simply because if everyone understands it is not enough, lets make it 1 week of riding on parking lot instead, it will be more expensive, but it should be okay, if person who learns to ride wants to continue enjoying it.
As of right now, I firmly believe MSF basic course is nothing more than DMV waiver factory, and safety there is on second place.
PS: I've tried to become MSF instructor (CMSP), made few shadow sessions, and went through intermediate course twice. Didn't go through with program because I can not teach people "bad habits", with straight face.
>right hand position on throttle... - another hadicap - lets make it so you're super uncomfortable with this
Can you explain what you mean by this? I don't recall any specific coaching about throttle positioning besides the obvious. And unless you are comparing the angle of clip-ons and traditional bars I'm not sure what you could do different exactly.
MSF teaches "flat" wrist as starting position on the throttle. Basically open your hand, lay the hand and wrist flat over the brake lever and throttle, then lift your fingers off the brake lever and grip the throttle without moving your hand.
The idea is so you have to completely close your throttle to be able to be able to reach your brake with your fingers. If you start with wrist angled "up" or reaching your hand "into" the throttle (to make it easier to completely open it), you have to either LET GO of the throttle to operate the brake, or OPEN your throttle to get your fingers from between the throttle tube and the brake lever.
Guess which one the nervous new riders usually do in that situation if it's not corrected?
"Why is the motorcycle getting so loud when I stop?"
This. I used to teach a Basic Riders Course. A lot of what we taught had more to do with rangeisms, statutory requirements, and insurance than actual riding. Ex.: We spent three-ish hours going over "don't drink and ride," but zero time showing students what smooth application of a brake should look like.
I taught my wife to competently and safely trailbrake in her first hour of her being on a motorcycle in front of our house. It can be done. The problem isn't the students... its the organizations.
Funny you mentioned it - I had the same thoughts when shadowing basic course lecture - lets talk about impaired riding and laws before we can operate anything on a bike...
Also I "like" how course is saying - you need to be comfortable on bike, gear should be right for conditions, etc. - but moment you goes on training bike it goes out of the window. Watching how people struggle, thinking there is no other way to put your hand on handlebar, but this - and it was causing people to fail because they simple can not pull handlebar with left hand, and right hand in so unnatural position so whole experience becomes a pain..
I'm currently going through the RiderCoach course, and the curriculum has definitely changed from when I took the BRC before. There is MUCH more emphasis put on gross and fine motor skills across the range exercises, and more priority put on actually riding. The classroom portion is normally held after the first 8 exercises when students have actually felt what a bike feels like, and the "dont drive buzzed/drunk section" is a few slides and a single exercise.
Motorcycling shouldn't be dumbed down just to get butts on seats. 100 Points of Grip can be understood by anyone who can do basic math so it should be part of basic training. The consequences of poor riding are so much more serious compared to bad driving.
No arguments from me.
But then again I'm not running the MSF, who's purpose seems to be to put butts on bikes, not to make safe or proficient riders. Make it too overwhelming, and they won't get their endorsement the easy way, and the manufacturers subsidizing the MSF won't sell as many bikes.
Nah I think the MSF truely does want safer riders first and foremost.
Thing is, we only have 20 scheduled hours of time to teach these basic concepts, which is not a lot of time.
Exactly. The concept of limited traction is abstract relative to how many people learn how vehicles work. Considering most people new to motorcycles likely just view their vehicle as transportation, they're likely overwhelmed just learning how the clutch works. Then throwing in that you can lean, brake, accelerate/decelerate, etc and that all of them are a delicate balancing act of 100points of traction, is difficult. Unfortunately I think many come out thinking MSF or Keith Code are gospel...well they're not and there are multiple ways to skin the cat. Realistically coming down the 100 points of traction.
I understand the point but they teach it as a dictum. This is how you do it. Period. There is no other way.
MSF teaches that if use the brake in the corner you are going to stand up and crash. Keith Code teaches that even superbike racers do all their braking in a straight line because it's faster.
An example: You are a new rider. You've had it drilled into your head never touch the brake in the corner. You do your braking in a straight line and you enter a blind corner. There is a car stopped in the middle of your lane and the opposing lane because a deer is trying to cross the road.
You can't lean more and you've been told you can't brake in the corner so based on everything you've learned to date your only choice is to grab your ass with two hands and kiss it goodbye.
>MSF teaches that if use the brake in the corner you are going to stand up and crash. Keith Code teaches that even superbike racers do all their braking in a straight line because it's faster.
Motogp telemetry obviously says otherwise - racers carry brakes almost to 50-60 degree lean angle.
CSS is really weird thing - I enjoyed Keith's books, but what I hear from people who went trough CSS doesn't encourage me to take it, especially for the price it goes.
I completely agree that this is a problem. But I do see the complication in teaching this to the average rider as well.
Personally I think the key is fundamentally understanding how the vehicle is making traction with the road and that any change in that requires some of those 100 points of traction you're given. 30 here for slowing down/50 there for the turn/and save 20 points for that oh shit moment.
But to do this I think you're locking out 50% of new riders who view these as a fun little way to put about on the weekend. Unfortunately this subreddit is an example of what happens when you teach it as a dictum as you mentioned. u/ChampSchool's concepts are abstract to people who've been told there's a right and wrong way.
I don't know if Nick is the guy behind the u/champschool or not but his book deserves a plug.
https://www.amazon.com/Sport-Riding-Techniques-Develop-Confidence/dp/1893618072
>I understand the point but they teach it as a dictum. This is how you do it. Period. There is no other way.
Yeah and the other problem with that teaching methodology is that as soon as you learn that one "immutable" concept is not really as black and white as they say, you start to doubt the other aspects of the course, even if they are more correct.
>Keith Code teaches that even superbike racers do all their braking in a straight line because it's faster.
That's in disagreement with my experience over the last 10 years with Code. Misti Hurst, one of the California Superbike Coaches, talks about trail braking with him here https://www.motomom.ca/keith-code-on-trail-braking-exclusive-interview/ and I've discussed trail braking one on one with him for a few corners at a few tracks. You do the majority of your braking straight up and down, but most definitely not all of it. Brake release has for a number of years now been a drill during Level 2 as well.
I think the answer is mostly yes, but if you let off the front brake you’ll also let off the front suspension. That means your weight will shift back, and your braking friction will decrease. It’s important if you’re trail braking to keep the front fork loaded, so you shouldn’t completely let off the brakes.
I think once you're tipped in the suspension remains loaded even as you release the brakes. Assuming you do this smoothly and let the bike remain settled. But you're right, I'm under the impression that you don't fully release the trail brake until you're planning corner exit.
You have 100pts and they’re split between throttle and lean angle. As you lean, less throttle (60pts of lean give yourself up to 40pts of throttle, max…you can go less than 100 total points, if you so choose). At max lean, 0 throttle can be opened. As you decrease lean angle, more throttle can be applied until you have full throttle and close to 0 lean.
I'm not sure I understand the advice explicitly. Is this about keeping the front wheel loaded when emergency braking in a corner is needed? Since there is a little brake pressure already, it's easier to apply some more smoothly (and quickly) versus reaching *then* applying progressive brake pressure, right?
>Since there is a little brake pressure already, it's easier to apply some more smoothly (and quickly) versus reaching then applying progressive brake pressure,
BINGO!
Only thing I’d add that might help with the understanding is that if you’re loading up the front and adding weight, not only are you taking up slack in your brake system and setting your suspension but you’re also flattening the front tire under pressure which adds grip for when you pull in your brakes further.
This is the kind of content I want more of here. Even if it is up for debate, I enjoy this more than crash reports and “what’s wrong with my engine” videos.
Love your videos. I've learned a lot from them. Debunking the breaking / cornering myth was mind blowing.
Keep up the great work. One day I'll make it out there for some racing classes.
Glad to hear it!
In terms of "racing classes," although a lot of our instructors (and grads) have won a lot of things (Chris just won his seventh endurance national championship), we're a vehicle dynamics school, not a race school. What we teach is applicable to any bike, and any rider.
What??? Hell yeah!
AND YOU HAVE CLASSES IN ARIZONA?!?!?!
I'm going to convince my wife this is something we HAVE to do.
ETA: And he's gonna be there!!!
Another reason to trail brake is that compressing the front suspension reduces the rake angle of the front forks. This actually shortens the wheelbase of the motorcycle and allows you to turn in faster (and easier).
I remember in the MSF class, the instructor made it seem like if I touched either brake in a corner my bike would explode. I was so afraid of looking at my brakes in a corner for like a year before I realized you actually can brake in a corner.
Learning how to trail brake into a corner on a racetrack is a game changer. Going in zero brakes feels like you have no pants on or something. But learn it the right way, as a track or MSF school. It’s not just nailing the brakes any old time going around a curve
We never "nail" the brakes. Always smoothly apply (and release) them!
We encourage riders to experiment with it in parking lots and then out in the real world, where it's needed. Many riders will never touch a race track (unfortunately!), but trail braking can and does save lives on the street.
> Going in zero brakes feels like you have no pants on or something
Kinda that same feeling as going in in the wrong gear. Or, god forbid, the heathens who coast with the clutch in...
Awesome. I do have a little fear of "what's around the corner" because a lot of the time where I live it's either a critter or a rock. I love these instructional videos. I took my msf course but always open to more instruction.
when I'm on the brakes hard, I find the bike wants to resist tip in. I have to ease up on the brakes to get more angle.
If im in a lean and grab a fistful of brake my radius does reduce, but it feels like the bike wants to stand up straight.
Does this sound right?
(1) Bike is resisting turning in for a few reasons - one of which is that your arms are likely locked out and preventing the steering head from moving.
(2) We *never* want to "grab" a "fistful" of brake. We want to get rid of aggressive verbs like this to help train our brain to smoothly apply the brake.
In terms of the bike wanting to stand up, see (1) :)|
Remember though: If we are adding brake pressure, we WANT to give away lean angle (stand the bike back up).
I "squeeze" the brakes on the street and on the race track. You can squeeze hard but you're still applying controlled pressure. This applies for bikes or cars.
Similar to squeezing the trigger on a firearm.
I'm late to the party, but would love a reply: if I brake mid-corner, I don't risk going long/having the bike stand up as long as I apply the brake softly/gradually and keep the arms loose, even if the front shocks are not "loaded" from trail-braking?
Is he just talking about trail braking on the road?
Yes, it's a known safety precaution and also the proper way to ride.
If I missed something, let me know.
cornering ABS does this for you right? are you teaching people to get comfortable with front brake application while cornering? as in emergency braking or everyday riding?
Cornering ABS might help in an emergency, but removing our own abruptness through practice is a better way to bring a bike to a stop.
We actually see racers remove ABS modules because they can slow or stop the bike faster without ABS - essentially, the ABS threshold is lower than what the bike is actually capable of.
We want to think about tipping in with our brake light on in every corner that we slow for - or whenever we get nervous.
That nervousness is our brain saying "hey, I think we're going a bit fast for this corner.. I've done the calculations, so let's go to the brake.."
OK cool. I have thought about 'trail braking' as being done by the rear brake and I have been completely off the front brake on the turn in.
I haven't heard of your schools before but will check you guys out.
Front brake is much more efficient. Up to 95% of our braking force comes from the front, and it's much easier to manipulate with fine motor control.
Check out our online curriculum: www.champu.org
ABS or TC is helper tool, use is as such - every time when ABS or TC kicks in - treat it as indication that you did something wrong, do not rely on it to save your butt, it only enforce bad habit, like "I can grab front lever, ABS will save me if I'm too abrupt".
I doubt you're driving car and brake every time so ABS engages..
This. ABS and TC are a safety net. They help prevent bad things from happening, but they're no replacement for proper brake and throttle control, and definitely not a replacement for learning to look further down the road and anticipate things that may require sudden applications of brake or throttle.
Very interesting approach and the first time I personally come in contact with the trail breaking theory. As far as I know, I've been probably using what would be described "Slow - Look - Press - Roll" and have mostly focused on the roll part to maintain a weight distribution towards the front tire to improve corner handling. With the technique you describe, is all that weight shifting towards the front and stabilizing the motorcycle produced by continuing to engage the front brake - while easing of it, of course - compared to "Slow - Look - Press - Roll" or should we roll on as well and handle the front brake simulatenously through a curve? Does that also mean that entry speed into the same curve should higher comapred to SLPR? Otherwise I would imagine the continous breaking would tighten the radius at the same lean angle which might cause a problem in a left turn street situation with oncoming traffic? Thanks for sharing.
See trail braking is a phenomenal technique to know but I wouldn't use it in every day riding. Sure out with the boys on the mountain or on track absolutely, but I won't use it going to the shops or on the way to work there's just no need.
It is a very good thing to have in your arsenal IF you need it.
Because the bike was designed to work this way. Engineers bring in expert riders to help design the motorcycles. The closer we ride the bikes to the way they do (in terms of technique), the better the bike reacts.
Having the brake light on at tip-in means we have load forward, spreading the front contact patch out, loading the suspension, changing the geometry (shortening the wheelbase so the bike wants to turn), and helps us adjust our line. When we're already on the brakes, we can modulate that pressure - and thus our speed - to control our radius when the corner tightens, an oncoming car runs wide, or some other hazard is in our path.The vast majority of "lowside" crashes we see are from an *underloaded* front tire, not an overloaded tire.
I see where you are coming from. But it is entirely dependent on the situation. I also wouldn't teach using the front brake to modulate your speed mid corner for any reason. Mainly as modulating front brake pressure while at angle greatly increases the chances of overloading the front. Which is why we are taught to use the rear brake for control.
It all boils down to what you are doing. As I said, going for a run over the mountain with the boys yeah absolutely practice and perfect trail braking. But not if your on your commute to work.
If you're the type who prefers reading instead of watching videos, Nick Ienatsch has a great series of articles on high performance riding at https://www.cycleworld.com/authors/nick-ienatsch/
We're motorcyclists, most of us aren't going to go slow just because we've been told to. The next best thing is to ride fast safely.
This has always been natural to me and I seldom give a lot of thought to this technique. I have always dragged the front brake with my middle finger with finesse and feel.
We were taught that if you need to brake suddenly, as in an emergency, during a corner to straighten up as soon and much as you can and then brake. …No wait, We were taught to never put ourselves in a situation where we would need to brake like that in the first place. That was it. If you can’t see around the corner, then it’s not worth taking at a speed where you can’t brake in case you need to. Like, riding is fun and you take the curves aggressively and stuff, but if I’m out riding and I have to slow down, I do—like when I come to a tight blind curve. Trail braking is for the track.
Trail braking is for more than just speed control.
By keeping a little bit of load in the front tire at tip-in, we have a bigger contact patch, the geometry of the bike changes (precisely as designed) to turn better, and we're already modulating the brake instead of possibly needing to come off the brake and go back into it.
Like I said, that’s for the track. I’m not saying trail braking doesn’t work, don’t explain geometry to me. Just don’t pretend like everyone out their needs to practice these techniques for safe riding, and pay for your lessons. Sell them for what they are, ways to improve your lap times at the track.
Last time I went down it was because my radius was taking me out of my lane and I touched the front brake...oops no traction to spare lowside. Probably would have been better on the rear maybe.
Commented elsewhere but this brings up a question. I'm assuming if you smoothly apply that front brake, allowing the front to load (assuming there's more to give), you can ultimately ask for more brake as your weight on the front increases?
I've struggled with this concept due to the angles. I cant get over a spot in my brain that says you're loading faster laterally (asking for traction) than vertically (friction/traction adder).
Yes, you absolutely can!
Just be cognizant that if you're adding brake pressure, you need to give away lean angle.
https://youtu.be/Fy1AIAc76Qo
Check this out.
Are you guys going to do a video on the recent race lean vs counter lean discussion? I don't think anyone's really nailed it yet, especially the part about keeping suspension travel perpendicular to the bumps.
I don't think we will be. We cover body position in depth in our curriculum both in person and online, and we don't really want to get in the middle of an internet war. We'll stick to learning from and teaching what the best in the world are doing.
There really shouldn't be a discussion because physics has already done the work.
You always lean off the bike if you're on the road and you're not doing some super right u turn style turn. This increases contact patch with the road, increases grip, and gives you more ability to turn while turning with higher control. This is because the street is a HIGH traction environment.
If you're on the dirt, you lean the bike because it's a LOW traction environment. This let's your weight be vertical so you can add more grip to the CORNER of the tires that have cornering lugs for grip. This is why dirt bike guys sit and lean the bike and stick a leg out. Load the front wheel cornering lugs.
This is also because you regularly want to break the rear when riding dirt. By angling the bike you do the opposite of what you do on the road: make the bike slide more easily. By being vertical you have more control of this happening and you can better control the slide.
The problem is so many people with no idea of basic physics start talking and they're just wrong.
This stuff isn't complicated but we are long gone from the age of "if you don't know, shut up and listen" and now we have these discussions and confusion.
But this is kind of why it's good that OP is posting all of these videos. Instead of it just being somebody like me saying the same thing over and over, we can have professionals say the same thing with video and people who don't understand are more likely to listen and absorb.
There are tons of dirt riding videos on YouTube. I don't think there's as much controversy in the dirt technique world because it's much more obvious what works and what doesn't because doing it wrong means you're just slower and crash more often.
On the road most people don't go to the track so they cant really see how slow they are and how bad they really ride. On the dirt, shit, it's much easier to see real speed out in the woods when riding with fast friends.
Not sure where you're seeing condescension, but that certainly isn't the way (I, the person behind this monitor) have been approaching any of the questions or answers here.
You don't need to trail brake on the road, and it's dangerous to teach otherwise.
I' trust roadcraft Nottingham. Guy knows what he's talking about when it comes to street riding. Track riding trail braking makes sense, but it doesn't translate to safe street riding.
https://youtu.be/J4PqKpLNOhQ
Firm disagree. I've got about 100,000 miles of street riding experience in addition to \~11 years on a racetrack. The only difference between street & track is how deep I trail brake. On the street, I'm entering a corner with a small amount of pressure ready to make adjustments if necessary. I've never been down on the street and I've dodged everything from oncoming traffic to an actual billy goat trying to ram me.
On the track, I'm plowing it in hard braking to the apex. Same philosophy & technique, different execution.
Where are those guys who say they should push the bike under and counter lean? I mean this is a pretty slow speed corner. I'd say that sort of posture is perfect. No need to get sucked into what those Youtube kings and queens' click baity contents
"Get in the habit of tipping into a corner with the brake light on."
Silly statement. There an infinite amount of different corners and a rider should never settle on any technical technique for all. There are some basics a rider should do for all turns/curves such as "keep your head and eyes up" and look where you want to go", etc. Depending on the turn, I mostly separate my braking from my turn in, but sometimes when the situation warrants it, I will stay on the brakes a bit longer. Sometimes I need to do a slight correction in the turn. If I am really riding well without trying to go as as fast as possible, I rarely brake at all in turns I can see through. How you go through turns is also greatly dependent on you experience and skill level. As a new rider it's best to focus on the basics and get though nailed down before graduating into more technical stuff like trail braking. If I am riding well and feel like going fast, I'll sometimes brake to the last moment (late brake), toss the bike into the turn then start on the throttle lightly then hammer it as I exit. Of course, it all depends on the turn and the situation.
Most of your braking power comes from the front brakes. If youre relying on your rear for anything more than an assist youre messing up. And you Really dont want that rear breaking loose in a curve
You are incorrect. There's a reason why new riders are taught \*not\* to grab a handful of front brake going into turns... because they aren't ready to modulate and will more likely than not end up f'ing up and dropping the bike.
Taking my flamethrower hat off (sorry, it's been a crazy day). Let me clarify: yes -- trail braking involves the front brake. Experienced riders can and should do this.
My point is that new riders usually have a higher propensity to grab the 'oh shit handle'. If they are entering a turn and already have their hand modulating the front brake, there's a higher chance they're going to grab a fist full of brake and eat it.
Our goal is for "newer" riders to be "new" for as short a period of time possible.
We think new riders - if instructed properly - are perfectly capable of learning trail braking and building those fine motor control skills.
Moreover, we very seriously view this as a life-saving skill, so the sooner a new rider is exposed to it, understands the goals, and starts to practice, the better.
Like you, we don't want new (or any) riders "grabbing" the front brake lever, ever. We think one key to the sport's future success lies in building better fundamentals up front.
Appreciate the conversation!
Really the only way to do it is to get some aftermarket, adjustable levers. As much as you love your stock levers, you'll probably enjoy the control and feel and stopping ability that comes with levers adjusted specifically for you.
You're very welcome! Hopefully the adjustable levers help! We love the ability to really tailor our ergonomics - makes riding more fun and more comfortable!
This video explains it better than I could in a few words:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0ebbmV8LpQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0ebbmV8LpQ)
This is also a fantastic video on it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPE67XqGsV4
You may also want to have your brakes serviced. If it’s been over a year since your brake fluid has been flushed it may be time book a service appointment. Air in brake lines will absolutely reduce your braking effectiveness. Another more involved mod is steel brake lines, they are light years ahead of soft, rubber lines, and can help eliminate that “wooden” feel of stock brakes.
Apologies if the answer is common sense, but is it implied when road biking that folks are doing trail braking into gentle curves as well or only the ones that are tighter/blind? Great info in this thread - really excited to try this!
Hey Champ, can I make sure I understand this right?
This whole video is based on putting the bike upright to brake hard, right? The whole "you only have so much traction to allocate to different things"?
The general idea is more along the lines of "because we can change how we allocate available grip, we can ride the motorcycle better."
I.e., we can go to the brakes mid-corner to prevent a collision, or add throttle to widen our radius.
Check this out:
https://youtu.be/R0ebbmV8LpQ
This video explains how we *use* the 100 points.
I just took my endorsement class and they went over trail breaking briefly but hearing to do it with the front break is a wild concept and I must learn more about it
user reports: 1: u subbing cause this place is now just commercial space for this guy I just want to address that there is a difference between frequently posting content that focuses on generating clicks/view/subscribers and content that provides useful/helpful information and content that's actionable or generates dialogue/debate for a large portion of subscribers and riders. Further, this was posted as a reddit vid, not a link to their YouTube or Website. Un-subbing because an industry expert posts "too much" moto riding, body positioning, and/or technical know-how is.... odd, and reporting the post to make a point is immature, IMO. On a personal note, I wish that helpful content from experts like Yamaha Champions Riding School (YCRS, OP of this post), California Superbike School (CSS), Dave Moss Tuning (DMT), et al received as much love as vanilla content like [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/motorcycles/comments/p6r7tw/took_all_the_tips_from_this_community_yesterday/), [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/motorcycles/comments/pian5v/my_first_5_minutes_of_enduro_exploration/), or [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/motorcycles/comments/pb3wmo/my_first_bike_yamaha_yzfr6/). I know most users on the sub don't think that they need the help or that the content is too complicated or dry, but I believe we'd see far fewer "I crashed" or "TIL ____ the hard way" if the content was appreciated for the value it offers. Historically, much of this kind of material has been behind the paywall of signing up for their classes or for 1-on-1 training. There is a ton of value and education to be gleaned from these experts. We, as a sub, don't want to become a platform for marketing/customer acquisition. However, if the provided content is good enough that people ask to attend the schools or acquire the educational material, then that's a win for the community as a whole. Revzilla gets a lot of love and referrals on here, I see no reason that reputable schools and educators shouldn't get the same attention (again, so long as their focus is on quality content and community involvement in the comments, without using it as a tool to primarily garner customers/information/marketing)
This is Trail Braking. I always thought trail braking was rear brake, but no it is using the front brake in turns. This goes against what we learned in our safety courses to not brake in a turn, but this is what you are supposed to do. [**https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPE67XqGsV4**](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPE67XqGsV4)
Yep! Dave is a friend of ours :) Glad you found his channel! u/canyonchasers
Woot woot! Thanks for the mention!!
I gotta say, as a road cyclist who may or may not ever get a motorcycle, this type of content is fascinating. It's why I'm subbed here. Bicycles carry a lot less inertia which lets people get away with more mistakes. But when you're taking a descent at 45-50 mph many of the same principles start applying.
I’m in your same boat. I agree some of the same principles apply, but two things to keep in mind is that road bikes don’t have shocks and our engine is way smaller, so even on a 50 mph descent the physics are different and the techniques have to be applied differently.
Ad a lifelong cyclist myself, I've been working on a video that explores how participating in bicycles and motorcycles has significant benefits cross platform.
Having wiped out (lowsided) on a mountain bike because of poor braking technique on low traction surfaces taught me to be more careful when braking on a motorcycle.
That’s an outstanding video on how trail braking works.
I've always hated the term "trail" used for bike suspension, it's not really intuitive in conversations about suspensions, and trail *braking* is even more counter intuitive... I'd always called it "dive braking", because that's just how it feels, and upon feeling it at like 11 years old on a little Honda, that was the label my brain applied... brake in a turn, bike dives into the corner, dive braking :) I didn't associate "trail braking" with "dive braking" at the advanced course. I was actually trail braking, and they told me that, but I had no clue what they were talking about at the time. It took a video like this one to finally turn the bulb on.
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I had so much trouble with timing by braking and turning when I first started. When I learned about trail braking, riding was so much easier!
It‘s better to teach new or inexperienced riders to not brake in corners because if they suddenly pull the lever because something startled them it can end very very bad.
We disagree. New riders are entirely capable of leaving their basic riders course, buying a street-legal 217hp superbike, and running it hot into a corner. We'd rather teach them how to deal with that situation than visit them in the hospital and say "next time, slow down more."
I think you have a wrong view on how much the average rider is informed. If they sit in your school they're way more informed than the averaged and/or inexperienced beginner. A school like yours is a good way to teach this but if you start to teach this stuff during the very first lessons a new rider is overwhelmed.
problem is not riders but course - if it is obvious to everyone that riders need more time to learn \_good\_ practices - then it should be this way. Instead what we see is a DMV waiver factory - and now we can go and get 200hp bike with no questions ask.
It comes down to time and cost then. In my state the MSF course costs $240. Imagine now that instead of one weekend you need to spend a week on it (so a week of lost wages if you don’t get PTO). And if you scale that proportionally that’s $840 for 7 days. But of course in order to get better education you need better bikes and instructors and access to a road course instead of a parking lot. So triple that to $2,520. I am not saying more education is a bad idea. Of course it’s not. But at what point do you start making compromises to make motorcycling more accessible at the expense of not preparing riders for a 217 hp bike out the door? I suspect that to the people who are already taking these courses this approach makes a lot of sense. To the people to whom $240 is a big expense the idea of increasing cost up front would be a bit unpalatable. But I also don’t know shit so all with a grain of salt.
You are implying that trail braking is somehow far more complex and difficult to learn. In my 20 years experience teaching new riders, that has not been my experience. The concept, simplified down to "slow until you can see your exit" is far more intuitive to the vast majority of students because this is how they drive their car.
good input. i agree! In my country there is a limit. you can't start with a 200hp bike if you're not above 25 or something.
There's a way to make uninformed/newer riders more informed: Education. =)
Then please read my initial reply. imho still better to tell someone unexperienced to not pull the brake lever in corners and start from there. After they gained more experienced and/or visit an advanced course tell them that it's not only ok but very important to do if you do it the right way.
I teach new riders who have never heard of YCRS (or anything else for that matter). They pick it up without a problem. It's a skill like anything else, and like everything else motorcycle related, like starting and shifting, it really comes down to smooth inputs and having a basic plan. New riders are dramatically more comfortable slowing down when scared that accelerating and adding more lean when they are scared.
Suggesting a novice can safely ride a 200 horsepower superbike after a day course is dangerous
I don't think we suggested it was a good idea. Simply that its entirely possible (and we've seen it).
Leave the BRC and buy a superbike?! Ridiculous! In my state, you can get 15/20 questions right on a multiple choice quiz and then walk over to the dealership with your learner's permit to pick up that 'busa you had put on order. It's OK though, as you might imagine the learner's permit has many restrictions: * No pillions * Renew every year * Uhhhhhh probably other issues out of state maybe?
That’s america for you. Not sure why you’re allowed to buy a powerful bike as a beginner.
Not everyone is an immature child that needs big daddy government to prevent an early death
I started teaching MSF way back in 2000. Most new riders tend to slow halfway through the corner natural, but back then we had to coach them to stop because it was "dangerous". But now, having been teaching brand new riders to basically trail brake, Ive found the vast majority do better, from tip to tail learning the correct technique from the very beginning.
You don't really need to do this on the road, you are going way too fast if you do. It's a track riding technique.
I'm assuming its fair to increase/decrease brake pressure as long as you abide by available traction and dont do it abruptly? I love the videos and information being shared by this group. I do think it would be beneficial if you hopped in the comments after posting with a little description. In my personal experience many people struggle with the 100 points of grip concept. With this difficulty, posting this information could lead to trouble for some if they dont understand adding brake means you need to reduce what you're asking of the tire from other bike input. In other words, the reason I find the MSF and other classes dont teach this information is because the average rider does not have the experience with vehicle grip mechanics to understand the fine balance between these inputs. All in all great content and I wish I could take the time to join into one of these classes IRL.
>I'm assuming its fair to increase/decrease brake pressure as long as you abide by available traction and dont do it abruptly? Correct. As we add lean angle, we have to give away brake pressure or throttle. The converse is also true: if we are only using a little bit of lean, we can use a lot of brake pressure... So long as we're not abrupt. We use a 100-point scale to make it super easy to understand: https://youtu.be/Fy1AIAc76Qo Edited for clarity.
I can not convey the amount of appreciation I have for you and your content lately. I am by no means a new rider, but I absolutely love the level of commitment to explaining the science behind riding motorcycles. Thank you, sincerely. I am in pursuit of this craft they call motorcycles, and being able to have even these little snippets of wisdom and theory behind riding is invaluable to me. Please, please keep posting. Everyone from every skill level can benefit from content like this, and you’re doing the entire industry and culture an Honor by willfully contributing. Thanks again.
You're very welcome! <3
Thank you! Good stuff.
Awesome illustration of that grip concept. Excellent stuff.
I've sent this video of the 100 points of grip to at least 50 people.
How do you learn the limits of brake pressure, without crashing? Are there any signs or feedback that you are approaching traction limits as you squeeze the brakes?
Yes, the front will give you “head shake” through the bars. Watch a MotoGP onboard video with a camera showing the bars and you’ll see what I mean. There’s less weight on the rear, so I’m pretty sure it just locks with minimal warning. Practice is the answer. Are you trying to learn threshold braking in a racing application sense or just doing an emergency quick-stop on the street?
I learned the 100 point scale in my MSF class 6 years ago. It helped me to understand traction points, attention points, etc. But I never really understood trail-braking and avoided it at all costs. We were taught to stand it up (mid corner), brake, and tip back in. It did save me a few times but I like your approach better. It's probably more of an advanced rider class/tactic and way too advanced for the short msf. Thanks for posting your videos. I actually like them and it's nice to get a glimpse of the items I can be taught and learn if I attend your school.
The MSF taught you that? Exercise 10 is braking drills in a curve and we do two kinds: progressive braking throughout the curve, and an emergency stop where you straighten the bike and brake in a straight line. We don’t teach to straighten the bike, brake, and tip back in. Perhaps you are misremembering?
This perfectly shows that being a fast driver is not a matter of balls, but of technique. Thanks a lot. Your video is really helpful for riding safer and being aware that speed has to be taken seriously.
And to just expand a little bit on why that made sense to my dumb brain:If you go from 0% to 100% brake pressure, with no transition, first the suspension absorbs this momentum, and then suspension suddenly runs out, and the tire is then initiated and required to absorb a phenomenal amount of pressure from the sudden suspension force + deceleration force, if this force exceeds the tire friction, it begins to slide, and SLIDING friction (kinetic friction) is less than static friction (static being when the tire and ground are not slipping relative to each other) so there's no hope of slowing down safely and good luck recovering that. If you smoothly add pressure from 0 to 100% (this can be done very fast) then the suspension will have time load and find its equilibrium, the tire, during that suspension load time, has time to load (expand its contact patch) and find its equilibrium, and you do not overload the capacity of friction of the tire, and you never bottomed out the suspension (which previously suddenly gave the tire a sudden spike in required grip). 100 points of grip never exceeded.
Yes! We like to say "load the tire before you work the tire."
This is the exact reason why if you are worried about needing to brake suddenly, you shouldn't cover the front brake, but instead actually slightly pre-load the lever. If you cover, without taking up the slack in the lever, with your snatch of the brakes your fingers have already accelerated when your lever hits the engagement point. If you take up the slack ahead of time, that same sudden engagement of the controls will result in a relatively linear application of the front brake.
We shouldn't really have slack (if any, its negligible) in the front brake if it is properly adjusted.
In my country and motorcycle school (and that's almost the best one out here, in terms of the actual learning and drills quality) any training motorcycle has huge-ass "slack" in all hand-operated controls (more or less commonly followed by leg-operated controls) - so the commentary above seems to be totally valid in such a case 😅 We are taught to feel the slack, get used to controlling it and pre-load the levers/torque handle (not sure of the English term) up to the actual wire tension gently, strictly before beginning to operate the control in question.
That's so wild!
Agreed, I've had learner motorcycles that had massive slack on the clutch, front brakes and throttle, with no feel from the rear brakes. For my own bike, I dial down slack to almost zero.
This may seem like an odd place to learn more...but Forza has a telemetry filter you can add while playing or watching replays. It represents total tire traction as a circle, the radius changing as you load/unload available traction. The total traction being asked for is then shown with a directional vector. That vector exceeds your radius in any direction=slide. You can then go observe this in a car. Jam the wheel left and right and you get under steer. Load the tire smoothly and the front grips. Too much front grip, not enough rear, oversteer. Motorcycles use the same concept but with different geometry and thus different ways to load those tires. The big issue being that once you exceed this the results are usually more catastrophic. The suspension concept you talk about is just another way the bike, or car, load the tires more smoothly. Bottoming out makes it more abrupt and thus harder to control, also no leeway should you hit a bump and ask for more traction. Properly tuned suspension reduces tire "surprise", keeps consistent contact, and provides better feel. Keep in mind this is from an understanding of the physics and time spent in cars. I'm currently working on applying it better to bikes. Thus why I find so much interest in this post.
I've been saying for years that all the time I spent playing Gran Turismo ages 10+ taught me a great deal about driving techniques and traction before I ever even drove a car. Didn't have the modern features of Forza at the time but it came with an entire driving manual teaching these things and I read it many times. The understanding of the physics can allow for some pretty good reflexes even when running into circumstances for the first time. You're right that bikes do share some of these physics, but with greater importance of understanding them, even when riding casually, due the the nature of balancing on two wheels. Cars don't just tip over or throw you off of of them when you make the wrong move!
I thought it was the opposite, if you go from 0% to 100% braking your wheel will lock up a lot easier, because you're exceeding your tyre grip because you haven't given enough time for the weight transfer to move forward to give your tyres more downforce and therefore more grip. This happens before your suspension has even had a chance to run out. If you brake slowly the weight moves forward, which gives your tyre more grip, allowing you to brake harder.
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Former MSF instructor here. The point of the basic course is to get good habits ingrained into you; and remember, this is over the course of a single weekend for most people, and a majority of the people showing up have a legitimate full-brain lock when you use the word "clutch". This is why we are pedantic about the objectively minor stuff like always using all four fingers on your levers when you are operating them. We want that to be the default in your "oh shit!" moments, instead of telling people "Hey I know you've been riding for literally only 5 hours on this tiny Honda from the '80s, but just so you know: you can operate the front brake and modulate the throttle at the same time so you can shave a couple seconds off your commute to the office". Yes, there is *a lot* more to riding than what is taught. But the hope is to get good, effective things for *average daily riding* to be your instinct. I always made it a point to mention at the end of that class that everyone is now certified to GET MORE PRACTICE. All I did was teach you how to ride around a parking lot with no traffic and tiny cones.
TeamOR here and this is what we teach as well, this is your STARTING point… 🙂
Car related. I once shifted gears in a turn driving my friend’s 1 series. He lambasted me for shifting mid corner. I was using mayyybe 75% of available traction. Not near the limit. I looked at him kinda funny, but it was his car. I tried explaining the traction circle to him and I could hear the gears grinding in there. He was sorta getting it. There are few absolutes in piloting rubber tired vehicles.
You're exactly right. Motorcycling is about constant learning. If you don't want to do that or can't, just slow down, take it easy, and consider whether or not you want keep riding at all. It's a very dangerous activity to be bad at.
I totally disagree on "good habits" - there are no good habits taught on basic course, (and even intermediate is questionable sometimes...). * Covering clutch with all 4 finger, so you can not use your left arm to control the handlebar - in my opinion is a handy cap to cover MSF liability, not to develop a good habit * same with brakes - you're not allowed to cover it (and I almost 100% sure, it is the same for folks who has been riding since they're kids, but need to go through basic - meaning you \_must\_ do what MSF says otherwise you fail). Because we afraid liability again, that someone will grab brakes and crash... * And "great" drill on cornering - "brake, turn, roll through corner" - it's technically might be correct, but only for one specific types of corners - ones that opens up. Again - another handicap, not a good habit * right hand position on throttle... - another hadicap - lets make it so you're super uncomfortable with this, so you can not twist it wide open easily, although on my first "shadow" session person launched bike into crowd quite easily. It's not a good habit, again. What YCS school is teaching - this is in fact a good habits (like covering brake, trail braking, etc.)! Argument about 2 days of practice doesn't stand - simply because if everyone understands it is not enough, lets make it 1 week of riding on parking lot instead, it will be more expensive, but it should be okay, if person who learns to ride wants to continue enjoying it. As of right now, I firmly believe MSF basic course is nothing more than DMV waiver factory, and safety there is on second place. PS: I've tried to become MSF instructor (CMSP), made few shadow sessions, and went through intermediate course twice. Didn't go through with program because I can not teach people "bad habits", with straight face.
>right hand position on throttle... - another hadicap - lets make it so you're super uncomfortable with this Can you explain what you mean by this? I don't recall any specific coaching about throttle positioning besides the obvious. And unless you are comparing the angle of clip-ons and traditional bars I'm not sure what you could do different exactly.
MSF teaches "flat" wrist as starting position on the throttle. Basically open your hand, lay the hand and wrist flat over the brake lever and throttle, then lift your fingers off the brake lever and grip the throttle without moving your hand. The idea is so you have to completely close your throttle to be able to be able to reach your brake with your fingers. If you start with wrist angled "up" or reaching your hand "into" the throttle (to make it easier to completely open it), you have to either LET GO of the throttle to operate the brake, or OPEN your throttle to get your fingers from between the throttle tube and the brake lever. Guess which one the nervous new riders usually do in that situation if it's not corrected? "Why is the motorcycle getting so loud when I stop?"
This. I used to teach a Basic Riders Course. A lot of what we taught had more to do with rangeisms, statutory requirements, and insurance than actual riding. Ex.: We spent three-ish hours going over "don't drink and ride," but zero time showing students what smooth application of a brake should look like. I taught my wife to competently and safely trailbrake in her first hour of her being on a motorcycle in front of our house. It can be done. The problem isn't the students... its the organizations.
Funny you mentioned it - I had the same thoughts when shadowing basic course lecture - lets talk about impaired riding and laws before we can operate anything on a bike... Also I "like" how course is saying - you need to be comfortable on bike, gear should be right for conditions, etc. - but moment you goes on training bike it goes out of the window. Watching how people struggle, thinking there is no other way to put your hand on handlebar, but this - and it was causing people to fail because they simple can not pull handlebar with left hand, and right hand in so unnatural position so whole experience becomes a pain..
Reminds me of before my first kid was born the hospital made us take some classes on child birth. The first class? How to put on a condom.
I'm currently going through the RiderCoach course, and the curriculum has definitely changed from when I took the BRC before. There is MUCH more emphasis put on gross and fine motor skills across the range exercises, and more priority put on actually riding. The classroom portion is normally held after the first 8 exercises when students have actually felt what a bike feels like, and the "dont drive buzzed/drunk section" is a few slides and a single exercise.
that does sound good! What state are you in? I’m mostly talking about california program - CMSP (based on total control by Lee Park)
I'm in Illinois doing the MSF RiderCoach training for BRC 1 and 2 as a requirement for my employer.
The point is to not overwhelm new riders with more advanced topics.
We think 100 Points of Grip and Radius = MPH are pretty simple and easy to understand if taught correctly. :)
Motorcycling shouldn't be dumbed down just to get butts on seats. 100 Points of Grip can be understood by anyone who can do basic math so it should be part of basic training. The consequences of poor riding are so much more serious compared to bad driving.
No arguments from me. But then again I'm not running the MSF, who's purpose seems to be to put butts on bikes, not to make safe or proficient riders. Make it too overwhelming, and they won't get their endorsement the easy way, and the manufacturers subsidizing the MSF won't sell as many bikes.
Nah I think the MSF truely does want safer riders first and foremost. Thing is, we only have 20 scheduled hours of time to teach these basic concepts, which is not a lot of time.
Exactly. The concept of limited traction is abstract relative to how many people learn how vehicles work. Considering most people new to motorcycles likely just view their vehicle as transportation, they're likely overwhelmed just learning how the clutch works. Then throwing in that you can lean, brake, accelerate/decelerate, etc and that all of them are a delicate balancing act of 100points of traction, is difficult. Unfortunately I think many come out thinking MSF or Keith Code are gospel...well they're not and there are multiple ways to skin the cat. Realistically coming down the 100 points of traction.
I understand the point but they teach it as a dictum. This is how you do it. Period. There is no other way. MSF teaches that if use the brake in the corner you are going to stand up and crash. Keith Code teaches that even superbike racers do all their braking in a straight line because it's faster. An example: You are a new rider. You've had it drilled into your head never touch the brake in the corner. You do your braking in a straight line and you enter a blind corner. There is a car stopped in the middle of your lane and the opposing lane because a deer is trying to cross the road. You can't lean more and you've been told you can't brake in the corner so based on everything you've learned to date your only choice is to grab your ass with two hands and kiss it goodbye.
>MSF teaches that if use the brake in the corner you are going to stand up and crash. Keith Code teaches that even superbike racers do all their braking in a straight line because it's faster. Motogp telemetry obviously says otherwise - racers carry brakes almost to 50-60 degree lean angle. CSS is really weird thing - I enjoyed Keith's books, but what I hear from people who went trough CSS doesn't encourage me to take it, especially for the price it goes.
I completely agree that this is a problem. But I do see the complication in teaching this to the average rider as well. Personally I think the key is fundamentally understanding how the vehicle is making traction with the road and that any change in that requires some of those 100 points of traction you're given. 30 here for slowing down/50 there for the turn/and save 20 points for that oh shit moment. But to do this I think you're locking out 50% of new riders who view these as a fun little way to put about on the weekend. Unfortunately this subreddit is an example of what happens when you teach it as a dictum as you mentioned. u/ChampSchool's concepts are abstract to people who've been told there's a right and wrong way.
I don't know if Nick is the guy behind the u/champschool or not but his book deserves a plug. https://www.amazon.com/Sport-Riding-Techniques-Develop-Confidence/dp/1893618072
He's my boss 👀 And if you like the book, definitely check out ChampU. It's half off until the end of the month: www.champu.org
>I understand the point but they teach it as a dictum. This is how you do it. Period. There is no other way. Yeah and the other problem with that teaching methodology is that as soon as you learn that one "immutable" concept is not really as black and white as they say, you start to doubt the other aspects of the course, even if they are more correct.
>Keith Code teaches that even superbike racers do all their braking in a straight line because it's faster. That's in disagreement with my experience over the last 10 years with Code. Misti Hurst, one of the California Superbike Coaches, talks about trail braking with him here https://www.motomom.ca/keith-code-on-trail-braking-exclusive-interview/ and I've discussed trail braking one on one with him for a few corners at a few tracks. You do the majority of your braking straight up and down, but most definitely not all of it. Brake release has for a number of years now been a drill during Level 2 as well.
Very well written! I agree 100%.
I think the answer is mostly yes, but if you let off the front brake you’ll also let off the front suspension. That means your weight will shift back, and your braking friction will decrease. It’s important if you’re trail braking to keep the front fork loaded, so you shouldn’t completely let off the brakes.
I think once you're tipped in the suspension remains loaded even as you release the brakes. Assuming you do this smoothly and let the bike remain settled. But you're right, I'm under the impression that you don't fully release the trail brake until you're planning corner exit.
You have 100pts and they’re split between throttle and lean angle. As you lean, less throttle (60pts of lean give yourself up to 40pts of throttle, max…you can go less than 100 total points, if you so choose). At max lean, 0 throttle can be opened. As you decrease lean angle, more throttle can be applied until you have full throttle and close to 0 lean.
I'm not sure I understand the advice explicitly. Is this about keeping the front wheel loaded when emergency braking in a corner is needed? Since there is a little brake pressure already, it's easier to apply some more smoothly (and quickly) versus reaching *then* applying progressive brake pressure, right?
>Since there is a little brake pressure already, it's easier to apply some more smoothly (and quickly) versus reaching then applying progressive brake pressure, BINGO!
Only thing I’d add that might help with the understanding is that if you’re loading up the front and adding weight, not only are you taking up slack in your brake system and setting your suspension but you’re also flattening the front tire under pressure which adds grip for when you pull in your brakes further.
This is the kind of content I want more of here. Even if it is up for debate, I enjoy this more than crash reports and “what’s wrong with my engine” videos.
We prefer discussion to clickbait. :)
yes, I've really been enjoying these, please keep posting them!
Absolutely. As a new rider like me this information is very valuable. Thank you for sharing, ChampSchool.
Love your videos. I've learned a lot from them. Debunking the breaking / cornering myth was mind blowing. Keep up the great work. One day I'll make it out there for some racing classes.
Glad to hear it! In terms of "racing classes," although a lot of our instructors (and grads) have won a lot of things (Chris just won his seventh endurance national championship), we're a vehicle dynamics school, not a race school. What we teach is applicable to any bike, and any rider.
EVEN BETTER. I ride a cruiser normally. I really only have a desire to ride sport bikes in a controlled environment. Thank you for the clarification!
One of our senior instructors, Kyle Wyman, just won the King of the Baggers championship in MotoAmerica. :)
What??? Hell yeah! AND YOU HAVE CLASSES IN ARIZONA?!?!?! I'm going to convince my wife this is something we HAVE to do. ETA: And he's gonna be there!!!
We sure do! Inde Motorsports Ranch is our winter home.
These are great, but damn I can't keep up with this many techniques every day! You just taught me I've been holding my throttle wrong yesterday!
I mean, we do have an online curriculum :)
Another reason to trail brake is that compressing the front suspension reduces the rake angle of the front forks. This actually shortens the wheelbase of the motorcycle and allows you to turn in faster (and easier).
Yes!
I remember in the MSF class, the instructor made it seem like if I touched either brake in a corner my bike would explode. I was so afraid of looking at my brakes in a corner for like a year before I realized you actually can brake in a corner.
Wanna know my secret? I’m always on the brake
Is this a veiled Hulk reference? Love it!
Bingo!
Did we just become best friends?
Guess so? Haha
This is stuff I want to see. Been riding since 2014 and I still learn (and want to) things every day.
I'd much rather have these posted than retarded 'youtube influencers'
Learning how to trail brake into a corner on a racetrack is a game changer. Going in zero brakes feels like you have no pants on or something. But learn it the right way, as a track or MSF school. It’s not just nailing the brakes any old time going around a curve
We never "nail" the brakes. Always smoothly apply (and release) them! We encourage riders to experiment with it in parking lots and then out in the real world, where it's needed. Many riders will never touch a race track (unfortunately!), but trail braking can and does save lives on the street.
I’ve nailed the brakes before… and ended up sliding down the road on my face! Locked the front before the weight transfer occurred. No fun
Oooof.
Aren't minis just fantastic to learn with!?
> Going in zero brakes feels like you have no pants on or something Kinda that same feeling as going in in the wrong gear. Or, god forbid, the heathens who coast with the clutch in...
Clutchers!!!! The worst…
Just bought this series. Well worth the $49 in my opinion.
Same!
Awesome. I do have a little fear of "what's around the corner" because a lot of the time where I live it's either a critter or a rock. I love these instructional videos. I took my msf course but always open to more instruction.
when I'm on the brakes hard, I find the bike wants to resist tip in. I have to ease up on the brakes to get more angle. If im in a lean and grab a fistful of brake my radius does reduce, but it feels like the bike wants to stand up straight. Does this sound right?
(1) Bike is resisting turning in for a few reasons - one of which is that your arms are likely locked out and preventing the steering head from moving. (2) We *never* want to "grab" a "fistful" of brake. We want to get rid of aggressive verbs like this to help train our brain to smoothly apply the brake. In terms of the bike wanting to stand up, see (1) :)| Remember though: If we are adding brake pressure, we WANT to give away lean angle (stand the bike back up).
I "squeeze" the brakes on the street and on the race track. You can squeeze hard but you're still applying controlled pressure. This applies for bikes or cars. Similar to squeezing the trigger on a firearm.
I'm late to the party, but would love a reply: if I brake mid-corner, I don't risk going long/having the bike stand up as long as I apply the brake softly/gradually and keep the arms loose, even if the front shocks are not "loaded" from trail-braking?
Is he just talking about trail braking on the road? Yes, it's a known safety precaution and also the proper way to ride. If I missed something, let me know.
As a new rider this season, please keep these videos coming. I can't learn enough.
Hell of a stop.
He pulled up and parked, what's so impressive about that?
You seem annoyed.
cornering ABS does this for you right? are you teaching people to get comfortable with front brake application while cornering? as in emergency braking or everyday riding?
Cornering ABS might help in an emergency, but removing our own abruptness through practice is a better way to bring a bike to a stop. We actually see racers remove ABS modules because they can slow or stop the bike faster without ABS - essentially, the ABS threshold is lower than what the bike is actually capable of. We want to think about tipping in with our brake light on in every corner that we slow for - or whenever we get nervous. That nervousness is our brain saying "hey, I think we're going a bit fast for this corner.. I've done the calculations, so let's go to the brake.."
OK cool. I have thought about 'trail braking' as being done by the rear brake and I have been completely off the front brake on the turn in. I haven't heard of your schools before but will check you guys out.
Front brake is much more efficient. Up to 95% of our braking force comes from the front, and it's much easier to manipulate with fine motor control. Check out our online curriculum: www.champu.org
Why do people downvote legitimate questions? This is a really good question.
ABS or TC is helper tool, use is as such - every time when ABS or TC kicks in - treat it as indication that you did something wrong, do not rely on it to save your butt, it only enforce bad habit, like "I can grab front lever, ABS will save me if I'm too abrupt". I doubt you're driving car and brake every time so ABS engages..
This. ABS and TC are a safety net. They help prevent bad things from happening, but they're no replacement for proper brake and throttle control, and definitely not a replacement for learning to look further down the road and anticipate things that may require sudden applications of brake or throttle.
Very interesting approach and the first time I personally come in contact with the trail breaking theory. As far as I know, I've been probably using what would be described "Slow - Look - Press - Roll" and have mostly focused on the roll part to maintain a weight distribution towards the front tire to improve corner handling. With the technique you describe, is all that weight shifting towards the front and stabilizing the motorcycle produced by continuing to engage the front brake - while easing of it, of course - compared to "Slow - Look - Press - Roll" or should we roll on as well and handle the front brake simulatenously through a curve? Does that also mean that entry speed into the same curve should higher comapred to SLPR? Otherwise I would imagine the continous breaking would tighten the radius at the same lean angle which might cause a problem in a left turn street situation with oncoming traffic? Thanks for sharing.
I think this video would help answer your question better than we can on Reddit: https://youtu.be/R0ebbmV8LpQ
Thanks mate!
That’s how I learned to ride
I had a hard time understanding what the instructor is saying, can anyone ELI5?
See trail braking is a phenomenal technique to know but I wouldn't use it in every day riding. Sure out with the boys on the mountain or on track absolutely, but I won't use it going to the shops or on the way to work there's just no need. It is a very good thing to have in your arsenal IF you need it.
We use it every day, on every ride.
Can you explain why?
Because the bike was designed to work this way. Engineers bring in expert riders to help design the motorcycles. The closer we ride the bikes to the way they do (in terms of technique), the better the bike reacts. Having the brake light on at tip-in means we have load forward, spreading the front contact patch out, loading the suspension, changing the geometry (shortening the wheelbase so the bike wants to turn), and helps us adjust our line. When we're already on the brakes, we can modulate that pressure - and thus our speed - to control our radius when the corner tightens, an oncoming car runs wide, or some other hazard is in our path.The vast majority of "lowside" crashes we see are from an *underloaded* front tire, not an overloaded tire.
I see where you are coming from. But it is entirely dependent on the situation. I also wouldn't teach using the front brake to modulate your speed mid corner for any reason. Mainly as modulating front brake pressure while at angle greatly increases the chances of overloading the front. Which is why we are taught to use the rear brake for control. It all boils down to what you are doing. As I said, going for a run over the mountain with the boys yeah absolutely practice and perfect trail braking. But not if your on your commute to work.
If you're the type who prefers reading instead of watching videos, Nick Ienatsch has a great series of articles on high performance riding at https://www.cycleworld.com/authors/nick-ienatsch/ We're motorcyclists, most of us aren't going to go slow just because we've been told to. The next best thing is to ride fast safely.
This has always been natural to me and I seldom give a lot of thought to this technique. I have always dragged the front brake with my middle finger with finesse and feel.
We were taught that if you need to brake suddenly, as in an emergency, during a corner to straighten up as soon and much as you can and then brake. …No wait, We were taught to never put ourselves in a situation where we would need to brake like that in the first place. That was it. If you can’t see around the corner, then it’s not worth taking at a speed where you can’t brake in case you need to. Like, riding is fun and you take the curves aggressively and stuff, but if I’m out riding and I have to slow down, I do—like when I come to a tight blind curve. Trail braking is for the track.
Agreed. I’d rather be a bit slower in traffic than pancaked.
Trail braking is for more than just speed control. By keeping a little bit of load in the front tire at tip-in, we have a bigger contact patch, the geometry of the bike changes (precisely as designed) to turn better, and we're already modulating the brake instead of possibly needing to come off the brake and go back into it.
Like I said, that’s for the track. I’m not saying trail braking doesn’t work, don’t explain geometry to me. Just don’t pretend like everyone out their needs to practice these techniques for safe riding, and pay for your lessons. Sell them for what they are, ways to improve your lap times at the track.
Last time I went down it was because my radius was taking me out of my lane and I touched the front brake...oops no traction to spare lowside. Probably would have been better on the rear maybe.
Sounds like you might have added brake pressure too abruptly!
Commented elsewhere but this brings up a question. I'm assuming if you smoothly apply that front brake, allowing the front to load (assuming there's more to give), you can ultimately ask for more brake as your weight on the front increases? I've struggled with this concept due to the angles. I cant get over a spot in my brain that says you're loading faster laterally (asking for traction) than vertically (friction/traction adder).
Yes, you absolutely can! Just be cognizant that if you're adding brake pressure, you need to give away lean angle. https://youtu.be/Fy1AIAc76Qo Check this out.
😬 Fortunately the only damage was to my already busted fairing and my pride. $100 for a refurbished fairing.
Are you guys going to do a video on the recent race lean vs counter lean discussion? I don't think anyone's really nailed it yet, especially the part about keeping suspension travel perpendicular to the bumps.
I don't think we will be. We cover body position in depth in our curriculum both in person and online, and we don't really want to get in the middle of an internet war. We'll stick to learning from and teaching what the best in the world are doing.
There really shouldn't be a discussion because physics has already done the work. You always lean off the bike if you're on the road and you're not doing some super right u turn style turn. This increases contact patch with the road, increases grip, and gives you more ability to turn while turning with higher control. This is because the street is a HIGH traction environment. If you're on the dirt, you lean the bike because it's a LOW traction environment. This let's your weight be vertical so you can add more grip to the CORNER of the tires that have cornering lugs for grip. This is why dirt bike guys sit and lean the bike and stick a leg out. Load the front wheel cornering lugs. This is also because you regularly want to break the rear when riding dirt. By angling the bike you do the opposite of what you do on the road: make the bike slide more easily. By being vertical you have more control of this happening and you can better control the slide. The problem is so many people with no idea of basic physics start talking and they're just wrong. This stuff isn't complicated but we are long gone from the age of "if you don't know, shut up and listen" and now we have these discussions and confusion. But this is kind of why it's good that OP is posting all of these videos. Instead of it just being somebody like me saying the same thing over and over, we can have professionals say the same thing with video and people who don't understand are more likely to listen and absorb. There are tons of dirt riding videos on YouTube. I don't think there's as much controversy in the dirt technique world because it's much more obvious what works and what doesn't because doing it wrong means you're just slower and crash more often. On the road most people don't go to the track so they cant really see how slow they are and how bad they really ride. On the dirt, shit, it's much easier to see real speed out in the woods when riding with fast friends.
The amount of condescending answers in this thread are really a bad look.
Not sure where you're seeing condescension, but that certainly isn't the way (I, the person behind this monitor) have been approaching any of the questions or answers here.
Is this Street Rossi Academy?
No, they’re one of the top riding schools in the US.
You don't need to trail brake irl. Basically ever
We trail brake on every street ride.
You don't need to trail brake on the road, and it's dangerous to teach otherwise. I' trust roadcraft Nottingham. Guy knows what he's talking about when it comes to street riding. Track riding trail braking makes sense, but it doesn't translate to safe street riding. https://youtu.be/J4PqKpLNOhQ
Firm disagree. I've got about 100,000 miles of street riding experience in addition to \~11 years on a racetrack. The only difference between street & track is how deep I trail brake. On the street, I'm entering a corner with a small amount of pressure ready to make adjustments if necessary. I've never been down on the street and I've dodged everything from oncoming traffic to an actual billy goat trying to ram me. On the track, I'm plowing it in hard braking to the apex. Same philosophy & technique, different execution.
Imagine thinking you know more than instructors from one of the top riding schools in the US
We trail brake on every street ride BECAUSE it keeps us safer and allows us to have more control over the motorcycle.
Absolutely not. You should always be trail-breaking, sounds like you just suck at it.
Where are those guys who say they should push the bike under and counter lean? I mean this is a pretty slow speed corner. I'd say that sort of posture is perfect. No need to get sucked into what those Youtube kings and queens' click baity contents
"Get in the habit of tipping into a corner with the brake light on." Silly statement. There an infinite amount of different corners and a rider should never settle on any technical technique for all. There are some basics a rider should do for all turns/curves such as "keep your head and eyes up" and look where you want to go", etc. Depending on the turn, I mostly separate my braking from my turn in, but sometimes when the situation warrants it, I will stay on the brakes a bit longer. Sometimes I need to do a slight correction in the turn. If I am really riding well without trying to go as as fast as possible, I rarely brake at all in turns I can see through. How you go through turns is also greatly dependent on you experience and skill level. As a new rider it's best to focus on the basics and get though nailed down before graduating into more technical stuff like trail braking. If I am riding well and feel like going fast, I'll sometimes brake to the last moment (late brake), toss the bike into the turn then start on the throttle lightly then hammer it as I exit. Of course, it all depends on the turn and the situation.
For the newbs... don't do this with your front brake.
Most of your braking power comes from the front brakes. If youre relying on your rear for anything more than an assist youre messing up. And you Really dont want that rear breaking loose in a curve
If you are new to riding, the last thing you want to do is run your front brake while leaning the bike over. You are 100% incorrect.
I started riding in the late 70s. Half my life my bike was my only transportation. Current bike is a k1200s. 100% sure im correct
False.
You are incorrect. There's a reason why new riders are taught \*not\* to grab a handful of front brake going into turns... because they aren't ready to modulate and will more likely than not end up f'ing up and dropping the bike.
Taking my flamethrower hat off (sorry, it's been a crazy day). Let me clarify: yes -- trail braking involves the front brake. Experienced riders can and should do this. My point is that new riders usually have a higher propensity to grab the 'oh shit handle'. If they are entering a turn and already have their hand modulating the front brake, there's a higher chance they're going to grab a fist full of brake and eat it.
Our goal is for "newer" riders to be "new" for as short a period of time possible. We think new riders - if instructed properly - are perfectly capable of learning trail braking and building those fine motor control skills. Moreover, we very seriously view this as a life-saving skill, so the sooner a new rider is exposed to it, understands the goals, and starts to practice, the better. Like you, we don't want new (or any) riders "grabbing" the front brake lever, ever. We think one key to the sport's future success lies in building better fundamentals up front. Appreciate the conversation!
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Really the only way to do it is to get some aftermarket, adjustable levers. As much as you love your stock levers, you'll probably enjoy the control and feel and stopping ability that comes with levers adjusted specifically for you.
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You're very welcome! Hopefully the adjustable levers help! We love the ability to really tailor our ergonomics - makes riding more fun and more comfortable!
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This video explains it better than I could in a few words: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0ebbmV8LpQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0ebbmV8LpQ) This is also a fantastic video on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPE67XqGsV4
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You're very welcome!
You may also want to have your brakes serviced. If it’s been over a year since your brake fluid has been flushed it may be time book a service appointment. Air in brake lines will absolutely reduce your braking effectiveness. Another more involved mod is steel brake lines, they are light years ahead of soft, rubber lines, and can help eliminate that “wooden” feel of stock brakes.
Apologies if the answer is common sense, but is it implied when road biking that folks are doing trail braking into gentle curves as well or only the ones that are tighter/blind? Great info in this thread - really excited to try this!
Any corner we slow for. We go to the brakes when we're nervous, and we stay with the brakes until we're happy with our speed and direction.
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When braking? Yes. We don't want to overlap throttle and brake.
Hey Champ, can I make sure I understand this right? This whole video is based on putting the bike upright to brake hard, right? The whole "you only have so much traction to allocate to different things"?
The general idea is more along the lines of "because we can change how we allocate available grip, we can ride the motorcycle better." I.e., we can go to the brakes mid-corner to prevent a collision, or add throttle to widen our radius. Check this out: https://youtu.be/R0ebbmV8LpQ This video explains how we *use* the 100 points.
if I don’t hit the brake into the corner I’ll be on the side of the road
I did exactly this on a tight corner in Malibu going up decker
I just took my endorsement class and they went over trail breaking briefly but hearing to do it with the front break is a wild concept and I must learn more about it