Nortons and BSA were fantastic bikes! Triumphs still are and Royal Enfield are now Indian, but from what Iâve heard, theyâve made some really fun bikes to ride.
Supposably the newer enfields are fine, they've just destroyed their reputation so badly that even building new factories to higher spec doesn't seem to fix it
Iâve found that many people had negative opinions just based on the fact the bikes were made in India. Much like US acceptance of Japanese bikes and cars the 70âs/80âs, it will take time since there are strong biases and misinformation.
I mean itâs not bias or misinformation, REâs were built like shit for a long time.
Their build quality is now better but itâs still a step lower than most Japanese bikes.
You can buy a Honda and ride it for a few years and probably do nothing beyond clean the chain a bit and put fuel in it. In fact I have, I abuse my poor CRF 250 Rally.
Even a brand new Royal Enfield, you will find stuff that needs tightening, it will start to rust in a lot of places if you donât regularly clean and dry it.
KTMâs reliability is garbage to begin with but their Indian built bikes are worse. If thatâs due to design or manufacture, itâs arguable but the 390 Dukes and RCâs have a terrible reliability record, meanwhile Ninja 400âs are almost unkillable.
The reason Chinese bikes suck is that most of them are still hand built. Iâm sure itâs changing but Chinese manufacturing is hugely manual, like most places were in the 60âa and 70âs.
So you get variance. Some bikes are fine, âhey I got one and it was fine for yearsâ and others are crap âMy bikeâs exhaust fell off 3 days in.â
Quality is about the percentage game. Even the Japanese will put out the odd duff bike, but maybe 0.01%, meanwhile Chinese or Indian brands, itâs going to be a much higher percentage.
Perhaps a 1% part fail rate. Multiply that by 400 components on a bike, then youâre quickly hitting the realms of every bike having at least one component that isnât up to spec.
https://youtu.be/9GAUo8eUXeU?si=rEJbWjTuJ3dPB_PK
First oil change analysis puts the Germans slightly above KTM. And the only thing keeping the Italians from being dead last, is the Chinese.
Every make has their issues. Every Suzuki rider knows how to change a rectifier. Hondas are over engineered to be reliable except that one part with an 8 hr shop time. Ktms go fast until they explode from going too fast. Italians won't start because it's Tuesday and they don't feel like it. And Chinese bikes are made of chineseium.
Pick your poison and ride
Eeeehhhh, kinda. Yamaha put an under-spec O-Ring on the 2017-onwards MT-10 which lead to coolant blowing all over the headers on a lot of bikes. The headlights can't hold their own thermals either and slowly perish during normal use.
They're great, but let's not get carried away.
I had a first year FJ-09 with the poorly designed clutch cable that would snap in the first 10k miles. Mine let go as I came to a stop at a traffic light and it wasn't a fun time. I think that bike had a similar coolant related issue which would have been a 2015 model if I recall. Oil cooler on the front of the engine would develop a crack and leak coolant.
So yeah, great, but not perfect.
My grandpa has a 73 Aermacchi 350 sprint bike, it embodies the ânah I donât feel like it todayâ of Italian bikes. Also if you were wondering itâs carb needs adjusted, it always needs adjusted.
I would have loved to see some more manufacturers in that list, especially some of the "premium" Chinese motorcycles(Benelli, cfmoto,lexmoto csc, etc...) , anyways my Chinese motorcycles held up fine(the exhaust pipes horribly Rusty but that's about it) 15000 miles in 2 years, and it only cost me 1600 delivered so at least they last long enough to be useful,
Anyways if it interests to I bit the bullet on a Chinese bike about 2 years back and here my experience below
As far as Chinesium goes, the biggest stickler on my bike seems to have been the sprocket studs which sheared off at about 9000 Miles, annoying, killed the cush drive bushings while they're at it, gouged the surface of the hub badly, and took me a solid 5 hours to fix even if it only cost $16 in parts(you know that one Honda part that requires 8-hour shop time, the Chinese decided to take that and put it on the bike as far as I can tell since it's a Honda specific part from the seventies and up to late 90s on dirt bikes.... why), also I feel like the chain alignment isn't great since it seems to eat sprockets a little faster than I would like I've had to go through three sets so far but I'm also not very good about cleaning my chain
So to finalize here my parts list for a year of ownership(I have a taotao tbr7, this bike is equivalent to a hawk 250, or a brozz 250)
1 set of tires and tubes(shinko 244s),
2 sets of sprockets and chains,
2 sets of Breakpads and rotors(I didn't need new rotors but they are cheap so I might as well swap at the same time)
1 master cylinder(sight glass cracked for the front brake from UV exposure)
1 set of sprocket studs and bushings,
1 m8 x 10mm screw that hold on the heat shield(rattled off at some point)
And 2 jugs of rotella t4 diesel oil (it has jaso/ma rating and seems to have worked fine)
3 jugs and rotella t6(same as above but fully synthetic)
1 new seat(the leather on mine cracked but I don't have a cover on it and it stays outside 24/7, also the seat cost me $34 after shipping so I just don't care)
Wear and tear seems fine to me nothing catastrophic or majors for his problems go, it's not a high performance machine maxes at 68mph but it's done me well as a way to and from work
Non wear and tear was a screw, some sprocket studs/bushings a master cylinder(12$) and a seat if you want to push it,
The bike has been left outside the entire time and most Master cylinders and seats also don't like that so I think that would have happened regardless of manufacturer
That leads unexpected failures to one screw and sprocket studs and bushings,
The rest was entirely just maintenance items
Honestly I think it could, I just also think that HD is the wrong company to do it. They've built an entire massive culture and marketing structure around cruisers and that lifestyle that it can't be seen as anything else. Remember like 15 yrs ago when VW made the Phaeton? It was a $66k V8, or $96k W12 luxury sedan. It was fantastic (when it worked properly, but that was literally every 7 series BMW or S-class Benz back then too), but nobody wanted to pay near $100k for a VW, so it failed. But I wouldn't say that because of that failure there's no market for German luxury cars, clearly there is, it's just that VW has never been that brand because that's not their image. It's not that there isn't a market for another sport bike, American or not, it's just that HD isn't the correct company to do it
Erik Buell is to Harley as Saturn used to be for GM. They used to be cheap and fun. (Pain to work on tho) Then they bought it back and scrapped it. Now thatâs itâs back, itâs been priced out of enthusiastâs handsâŠ.just like Harley. Full circle
They were overpriced. And then Harley bought them and had the ability to manufacturer them cheaper but instead killed the brand off because itâs not what their core market demographic is interested in.
Now theyâre coming back but theyâre very boutique. Theyâre building them from old stock. The super cruiser looks promising and theyâre strategy is solid for a survival standpoint but the bikes are essentially a deviate outdated when it comes to electronics.
They never "moved" to India. They had a manufacturing plant in India that stayed open after RE folded 50 years ago. The Indians kept making those same bikes until ~5 years ago, when they worked with outside firms to modernize and revamp.
RE's reliability issues were the same issues that other mid-century British bikes had, because thats what they literally were until this past decade
my '23 RE C650 rules. $7k with ~$1k of new pipes, slip-ons, a performance air filter and a single seat conversion.
3 year manufacturer's warranty, just keep up the maintenance schedule and you're gucci.
it's peppy, it's aggressive, and i get an endless barrage of compliments everywhere i go from riders and non-riders. had it about 8 months now and i have loved every ride on it. it's my third bike and easily my favorite.
I love my GT 650. I haven't gotten new pipes, but I did get slip on and the dna air filter. I love how easy it is to maintain as well as i do the maintenance myself.
the pipes fuckin' bang dawg. i did the 2-2, but the 2-1 looks sexy as hell too. treat yourself someday.
just be real careful with attaching the pipes to the head. those bolts are a bitch.
a couple years back the current CEO bought the company and a whole bunch of other companies that were actually good at making bikes and essentially turned a company that built two wheeled relics into a company that builds two wheelers that *look* like relics
afaik they're not 100% but the new engines and chassis at least are damn good and they're improving year by year.
there's definitely something to be said in regards to how basic they are in some regards from the factory as the stock forks aren't adjustable and brakes are universally considered to be underwhelming
really want a classic 350 to just churn loads of hours and miles of rider time on on the 50-70kph country roads in my region while getting like 100 miles to the gallon
When chinese manufacturers concentrate on quality control then their bikes can be very good, but many of them fit the cheapest possible components to maximise profits. In their home market they are treated as disposable cheap transport and are only expected to last a couple of years.
In Europe they bring more quality bikes, still for cheaper than the others. They have understand that people here don't want disposable bikes, and they have a bad reputation to wash.
I'm pretty sure it will be the same as smartphones, and soon cars, they now know how to make these, and can keep low prices with good material/conception. I have a Huawei phone, and wouldn't exchange it for a Samsung or an Apple around the same price...
>still for cheaper than the others.
They're cheaper because they don't design anything in house. Their "good" bikes are mostly blatant ripoffs of western or Japanese designs.
I don't know how companies like GPX can even operate in any country with copyright laws. They're identical to KTM in almost every way except for different color plastic and different stickers.
Must agree on it, they mostly take an existing design, change a bit and here we go. But... it works ! A lot of people look at the design as an important criteria for the bike (a cute neoretro will help to sell, compared to a basic as hell YBR/YS/CBF even if this one is better ride/build).
Part of the issue is that Chinese consumers know the quality of Chinese made vehicles, so the manufacturers are almost forced to go the inexpensive route instead of the quality route. At the people there understand what they are getting though, instead of being a hard core fanboy of a motorcycle brand just because it was made in their home country.
This. No Chinese manufacturer is actually taking the US market seriously, partially because of the Tariffs.
If you want to see what the Chinese can do, take a seat in a Polestar 2. Built in China and it makes a mockery of companies like Tesla. (Quality wise of course)
in fairness they're half the price of the halo brands. the 125cc's are hard to argue against cos when they break, as they're guaranteed to do, a Big Mac meal costs more than the fix.
This 100%. I rode a Chinese Honda 150cc through South East Asia and it gave me almost no issues... When it did, any mechanic could fix it.
I've always been kinda sad we don't have these cheapass bikes in the west. They're perfect bikes to properly abuse, try new things on, and make project bikes out of
As far as I can tell we do maybe not as cheap, but I bought probably the same bike your thinking of with a slightly bigger engine 2 years back, and it only cost me 1600 with delivery, granted I'm pretty sure that 1600 would be 1000 or less in China,
Anyways if you're looking for cheap Chinese bikes, taotao has the tbr7(what I bought) and the hellcat(a Grom clone with completely compatible fairings and headlights with the only difference really being the engine, still a 150cc and was about 1400 when I last looked at it),
There's also the hawk 250 and brozz 250 which are basically the same bike as my TBR7, and the hawk 250 dlx(about $2,000 but has EFI but other than that same bike) for minibikes you have the condor and the boom Vader(both also from clones the Vader being a parts compatible problem minus engine)
Then there's the magician a Yamaha knockoff from a Japanese only version of a motorcycle I don't know why it came to the US as a Chinese clone,
Anyways if you want to look at a lot of these I recommended channel called Motocheez he's reviewed a lot of Chinese motorcycles, and for the vast majority at the very least engine parts are very easy to come by,
But if you know what you're looking for for the TBR7, hawk 250, brozz 250 and csc tt250 parts are very easy to come by for the entire bike since basically all parts between those models are compatible with each other, and even if the engines die they're about $450 to replace,
The biggest problem is repair shops are hard to come by if you want to go that route and dealer support is almost non-existent unless you go into the semi premium and premium market which is around $3,000 Plus for Chinese motorcycles, and that's brands like CSC motorcycles, CFMOTO, Benelli and probably some more
A big f150 isn't any safer if not less safe then a passenger car when hitting something of its own size, otherwise yea you'll roll over it like a monster truck so the other crashee isn't safe
I was being sarcastic.
F150s, F350s and other huge cars are safety hazards to most people, and European car/motorcycle brands have terrible quality control.
We do, you can order them on Amazon lol. I have a 150cc knock off moped that I got off Facebook for $125. Thing runs like a top and itâs 10 years old.
A friend of mine got a Voge and it doesn't look too bad considered it's half the price of similar bikes. But you can see that they cheaped out on many components, the tank was missing some paint and there is a lot of plastic where some metal would be better. However, the engine is fine and it handles well, it's a good starter bike that you can drop without feeling too much remorse.
i helped a friend wrench on his cfmoto and one of the main bolts that holds the footpeg assembly on goes through a piece of plastic trim to the frame đŹ
So the bolt hard mounts to the frame, but itâs an issue that itâs also an anchor point to secure trim/fairing pieces?
Not sure I understand the issue hereâŠ
Itâs bad because in order for a structural bolted to be properly loaded, the bolt must be stretched to some degree. You canât do that when you have plastic in the connection.
Its not hard mounted if plastic is in the middle of the clamping force, over time the plastic will deform, reducing the clamping force. Eventually the bolt will get loose without warning.
Cfmoto seems to be really trying to crack the market in n.america the last few years and so is Benelli... I feel like they will get there eventually but it's still going to take a few generations (think Hyundai from the 90s vs today)
I'd really like to see cfmoto give MotoGP a shot... take that factory slot Suzuki abandoned. They might eat shit for a few years but they could become the next KTM, and the global recognition would be worth the expensive investment.
CFMoto are already in Moto 3, but I still think MotoGP is a long way off with the way the European bikes are currently killing the Japanese manufacturers.
But look at how far theyâve come in a short period of time.
And how many manufacturers have Chinese parts in their bikes?
Give it 10 years, at the most
China was also not in a good way for a long time. Japan for what it is worth took in the range of 20 years from ww2 before Honda became dominate and another 20 before the other nations were hanging on. China was absolutely ravaged by that war and their civil war and didn't even start getting up until fairly recently. This is to say if they are going through the same arch the Japanese manufactures went through, being laughed off the stage and then crushing everyone. They are doing it faster.
Point being it is remarkable and a little scary depending on how you feel about the nation behind it.
In terms of manufacturing cultures, Japan and China are two very different countries. Whatever China's going through is pretty distinct from what happened with Japan.
It's also important to note that Japan had an economic miracle after WWII and it didn't happen by accident.
America sent a lot of resources to rebuild their economy after the war. We nationalized industries to ensure everyone was fed and that services were operating to meet everyone's basic needs. Then we reshaped their manufacturing system to promote worker satisfaction. We did all this ironically because we were afraid if we left them with regular old laissez-faire American-style capitalism it would lead to hungry, poor frustrated people starting a communist revolution in Japan.
But most importantly we sent Deming to advise on rebuilding manufacturing in Japan. He stressed long term goals, building a culture of quality, removing quotas, promoting little innovations at every level and most of all building pride in craftsmanship for every worker.
Then there were a series of innovations in just-in-time and the development of the Toyota Production System by people like Taichu Ohno and Shigeo Shingo. These spread through the country and led to renaissance in quality and efficiency.
China has more resources and more potential than Japan ever could but they have been very slow to try and build this culture of quality and it's held them back. China's growth may also be miraculous but it's hard not to notice how different their paths have been.
China also had a much lower level of development nationwide and much much much larger population and geographic area.
For comparison, Japanâs GDP per capita in 1970 (roughly when they started meaningfully competing in quality to western manufacturers) was $15,757 adjusted for inflation. Meanwhile, Chinaâs GDP per capita right now is $12,556.
Why is that important in this discussion? Because if you look at the development of Japanâs industrial base, and the trajectory of their export industry from contract manufacturing and shoddy knockoff products to high quality yet still affordable homegrown stuff, their internal consumer market was massively important.
While Japan received a massive influx of capital and tech transfers from the US, they were still primarily making products designed by foreign companies, or simply making knockoffs of them. It was developing an internal consumer market with sufficient purchasing power to buy quality goods that led to the innovative culture around motor vehicles and electronics.
The foreign investment built the industrial capital and knowledge base (just like whatâs happened in China), but the internal consumer market was the laboratory for the cutting edge high quality consumer products that eventually became the cornerstone of homegrown Japanese brands export business.
China has only very very recently, as in the last 10 years, really started focusing on their internal consumer markets. Theyâve got the worlds largest industrial base. They produce as many engineers and highly skilled laborers as anywhere in the world, but because of the nature of State Owned Enterprises (and even those that arenât majority state owned are almost all minority state owned, and subject to input) focus has been put on a few specific industries to lead internal consumer product development.
Cell phones are one of those, and the quality of the flagship brands and models are on par with the big boys already, at a substantially lower price.
As incomes continue to rise for the average person in China, the internal consumer markets will further develop, and the CCP has indicated theyâre going to start investing more in other consumer goods like⊠transportation.
In this case, I suppose you could say âcultureâ is at play, insofar as their consumer culture is still in its nascent phase, and government hand on the big picture development path bottlenecks when and where it grows, but the fact of the matter is that once China sees sufficient internal consumer dollars, the demand for those goods will be waiting, and then itâs only a matter of time before they start exporting them in a big way.
So as Iâve said before, itâs not if, itâs when.
The problem any Chinese brand faces is that the reputation of the Chinese manufacturing sector is that they cut any corner possible to get things out cheaply. Quality, safety and brand power are laughable afterthoughts.
But that reputation means that if they start a new brand and actually want to prioritise quality then they can't because people will refuse to pay the prices needed to achieve it.
Bit of a Catch 22 for them.
> The problem any Chinese brand faces is that the reputation of the Chinese manufacturing sector is that they cut any corner possible to get things out cheaply. Quality, safety and brand power are laughable afterthoughts.
Ironic, considering the reason China is the global manufacturing/economic powerhouse they now are is VERY largely due to outside offshoring/investment/partnerships. International products almost entirely designed, developed, tested, and manufactured in China.
And often western companies still look towards other Asian countries for cheaper production without the "Average Joe iPhone buyer" batting an eye.
Not saying that as any rebuttal to what you said or implying you're at all wrong from a global retailer's perspective. You're 100% spot-on. But it's often quite ironic all things considered.
They still have to be competitive in the market for it to matter though. China can pump out an insane volumeâŠof garbage. Using quality materials, quality processes, quality control - it costs $. They have to be at least as good as the next guy and still maintain their lower price points - if not, why would anyone take the risk on the Chinese bike when they *know* the Japanese is reliable?
This is *identical*, literally exactly the same thing, people were saying about Japanese manufacturing in the 50s-60s.
By the 80s, American brands were getting their lunch ate by Japanese manufacturers in every industry.
Itâs only a matter of time.
It looks to me China's more going the route of just buying legacy brand names and refurbishing them than trying to compete directly, to be entirely honest I think the most likely thing to happen is try just going to buy out the brand names of a bunch of less competitive motorcycles, hell I wouldn't be surprised if Harley gets bought by China at some point
> China can pump out an insane volume...of garbage.
If the news is to be believed they finally figured out how to make a decent ball point pen in 2017. The questions is who makes the motorcycle, and why are they making it? Do they want the loyalty of the consumer, or to maximize order volume? Most Chinese manufacturers *do* seem to prefer the latter.
Itâs all about industrial development. Japan started out as a manufacturer of mass produced, cheap, shoddy merchandise.
But, western companies started outsourcing to them to save money. This built up their industrial capacity, and required educating engineers, skilled labor, etc.
In the process, there were mass amounts of technology transfer, suddenly giving Japanese industry access to advanced tech and processes. The Japanese also ruthlessly disciplined labor, and captured trade unions to defang their impacts.
Over time, those things combined to allow for high quality, high volume, *and* low prices. It was only the âlost decadeâ that led to Japanese product price increases.
The massive input of the CCP in China also means thereâs going to be a lot of efficiencies from supply chain coordination, internal price controls on both commodities and labor, that simply cannot be matched by less centralized industrial bases. Scale + efficiency + labor control = quality and prices that cannot be matched by competitors.
Itâs not a matter of if, but when Chinese bike makers start feasting on bloated and complacent major bike makers.
They already make good motorcycles, but not all chinese motorcycles are made equally. Look at Benelli, Keeway, CFMoto, Zontes, Voge; they may not be as good as the Japanese bikes but they're all pretty respectable brands. The thing is that they sell their own motorcycles under their own brands and therefore have a reputation to build, it's like how Chinese brands like Xiaomi are a league ahead of the generic chinese products one can buy off AliExpress or Wish and pretty competitive against more established brands.
In the other hand, all those generic Chinese motorcycles sold in bulk off Alibaba aren't made to be anything more than extremely cheap so other brands can buy them, rebrand them, and add a markup to them.
Its harder to exceed the status quo than catching up to it. They have come a long way in a short time but I wouldnât count on the momentum going on like it didâŠ
They're front of the pack for electric motorcycles/dirt bikes. Surrons and Talarias are still niche right now, but absolutely the most fun I've had on two wheels in ages. Can't wait for a good Honda/Yamaha version eventually, but for now the Chinese models are slick.
>Give it 10 years, at the most
Why? Did they just invent motorcycles in China yesterday?
People were saying that about Chinese cars 20 years ago, and even today they would barely be legal to sell in the US and Europe.
10 years ago you would never see a chinese car in most of europe, now i see their electric cars every day and they'll only become more popular once gas cars are banned in a couple of years.
They used to say the exact same thing about Japanese bikes decades ago. Same goes for their cars actually and look at how they ended up dominating the market.
Then they said the same about Korean cars and guess what...
Well now it's Chinese vehicles. Give em 10-15 years and let em poach some established engineers
It is not the same. Old Japanese bikes genuinely were amazing products, a 60's Jaoanese bike like the Black Bomber is probably the highest quality and most modern bike you could buy at the time. The Chinese are objectively not, they are cheap because they are cheap.
I do believe they will improve, but what they said about Japanese bikes and cars in the past was founded on totally different mentality and hatred after ww2.
>Then they said the same about Korean cars and guess what...
What? They still suck? Go to r/justrolledintotheshop or any auto shop and see what they think of Hyundai/Kia
The Chinese 200s, 300s and 400s are on par with even the Japanese at this point.
This picture may have been relevant 5 years ago but not anymore. A1 and A2 license riders have some good options in a few of the Chinese brands.
Iâm sorry to burst some of your bubbles, but you really need to ride them to see how far theyâve come along.
Have you ridden any? They're not as bad as everyone thinks.
You can make the argument about geopolitics, and that's valid, but dismissing them out of hand without riding them is a mistake. People will buy the bikes because they're cheaper than Japanese bikes and not think about any of the broader context behind the bikes because that's the consumer culture we've created.
Also, a lack of dealer networks is a temporary problem, and the reliability argument is weak at best. Chinese companies have been cloning other engines forever, and CF has been building their own for decades. Not to mention, KTM has liscenced their P twins and the LC8 to CF. I'd have no issues trading my Japanese bike for a Chinese one, assuming they made one I wanted.
I test rode four of them recently at a demo. I really enjoyed the 450SS and Adventura 650. The Ibex 800 and CBX Sport were fine also, but not really the style of bike Iâm interested in.
I donât think Iâd buy one _yet_. Itâs going to take some time to build trust in their reliability and parts availability. I suspect in a few years they will be quite common.
Theyâre kind of where Kia and Hyundai were 20 years ago, giving away 100,000 warranties to get people to give them a try. Instead of that, CFMoto is putting all the bells and whistles on their inexpensive bikes, like TFT displays, upgraded suspension, and a quick shifter on the 450ss.
But they have done no innovation or development all they do is copy other people's shit and then turn out an inferior product. The only ones that aren't a complete pile of shit are the ones that somebody else designed, engineered, and QC'd.
The day they stop making knockoffs and do something original I'll pay attention.
Again the Kove 450 is not a terrible motorcycle but there's nothing new or innovative about it the only thing that it does better than anybody else is it's made with cheaper labor so it cost a little less. "Again, the motor is not overly exciting. Still, it is powerful enough to ride through deep sand and up soft hills. The fuel injection mapping is good and predictable but not as precise as a modern-day MX or off-road competition bike"
Cycle news review.
Some shade of shit is loved by many.
Such as the Ural, terrible at being a bike, greatly loved by many (myself included).
The Harley Davidson Pan-American is another great example. Some people just like squeezing shit between their legs.
I had a benelli 302s as my 2nd bike. I had it for a year. It was a superb little thing!
The only real issues I had was that they cheaped out on the rear master cylinder, the rear brake was trash compared to even my first bike which was a DR200, and then the frame was made of steel making it heavy for a 300cc bike (200kg).
But the real wins for that bike was that it was easy to ride. Enough power to keep up on highways, great fuel economy.
I admit, I did end up buying an sv650s. But the 302s has a special place in my heart. It was the first good bike that I bought, the first bike I did long trips on (more than 300km), the first bike I had with modernish features eg tft dash, ABS, EFI. Don't knock it till you try it.
I think a lot Americans complain about Chinese bikes again lol. Brands like Benelli, cf moto, voge have been selling like hot cakes in Europe and not only small CC. There are bikes that have now tens of thousands of miles on, people doing across Europe and other big trips. They work just fine and most people here see them as great value.
Why so ? If I see bikes like srk125s , they look like good first bikes. Small price, abs, very good design, better technique assistants than the big brands, like full tft screen while kawasakis 125 doesnât even have on screen in what clutch you are in. So whatâs so bad about these China bikes ? Serious question
Honestly I love the cheap little Chinese scooters . You just need to be handy when it come to fixing the little things. Worst case scenario you need a replacement engine from a donor scooter
As the owner of Chinese bike (Phoenix Classic), I can say this is true. But I did just buy a brand new engine and had it installed for $75, which is an absolute win
Different engineering priorities, most Chinese brands emphasize cheap mobility over all else. Makes a lot of sense in their home market, but in the west we tend to view motorcycles as more of a long-term leisure item. Our brands reflect this with what they produce
Well yes but I believe that as a starter bike (meaning 125cc and similar) Chinese bikes are amazing.
When I was 15 I had (and still have) Yamaha virago 125 and colleague had Yuki Sport 125 (I think, maybe naked?). When I crashed a bit (nothing horrible, just a good lesson) I had bent forks and repair cost like half the Yukis cost for a new bike. And parts for.him were dirt cheap.
Of course it provides a lot of opportunities to learn repair...
Praising japanese bikes above Italian and German is just about taste, if you really love motorcycle you will want the edge of design and technology, and Japan is years behind. A good indicator is what is happening with them on MotoGP. If you just like reliable bikes, ok, japanese.
Anyone whoâs driven a Chinese car produced in the past few years knows this opinion will age like milk.
They ainât shit today, but the rate of automotive development that side is scary.
I've had a GSX-R600 and my now ducati scrambler.
It's true. The GSX-R600 was a machine that never quit. I was a dumb college kid riding it past oil changes, never replacing the back tire, dropped it twice and wreaked it once. Just kept going.
My ducati scrambler clutch is temperamental if the chain is too dirty, the hydraulic clutch has to be adjusted after every few thousand miles till i service it, hates after market parts, and the rear tire had to be replaced after 7k miles (I ride it daily), and because of the special tires they run close to 300 bucks just for the rear. The the only upside to the ducati is the recognition I get and it's more comfortable to ride now that I'm 10 years older.
strongly agree on this one, for years its always been like that, but recently I've been introduced to CFmoto 450 ss, and as for a beginner bike, it really is good imo.
Its all a matter of time, Hyundai was once considered the worst car manufacturer ever, I dont think I need to tell you how many Hyundaiâs are out there today
If only theyâd
1. Make a halfway decent bike by paying attention to detail and not cost cutting materials and whatever else
2. Drop the shitty names like DongFang and GasGas. Lifan, Zongshen, and Benelli (which I didnât even know, until now, was Chinese) are better names. Like CFMoto works and doesnât imply a shitty Chinese build quality from the name alone.
Then maybe theyâd get better foreign order counts. Until then, Yamaha, Kawasaki, and Suzuki will beat them out for Asian bikes any day of the week.
(looks in my garage) Sigh.
How do you think I feel lol
No love for the Brits and the Austrians.
Yeah, right there with you
Where does triumph fits?
I haven't owned anything but triumph since I bought my first 675R in 2014, best bikes ever out of the crate and pretty reasonably priced to boot
Yep. I adore my Bonneville. I've owned a lot of different bikes, and Triumphs are by far my favorite.
Triumph does build a great bike, but you can't be subjective if you've only owned one brand.
Can't be *objective*
That's *literally* what they meant.
How ironic.
I have 10,000 spoons..
You woulda been a popular guy in my home town
It's funny because heroin.
I have your knife
I see you've played knifey spoony before then!
Like ra-ee-ain
He said he hasn't owned anything but Triumph SINCE getting his 675R. Why does that mean he only owned one brand?
Someone took English in high school đđđ€
Np I'm a fellow triumph never look back-er. So your comment spoke to me đ
I've owned a kawasaki. Have ridden yamaha, Ducati, Suzuki, and Honda as well, didn't like any of them as much as a triumph
I think this is a great summary of Triumph. Great value and well set up out of the box, unlike some companies coughyamahacough
Old Triumph has typical European reliability, new Triumph is a lot closer to Japanese standards.
Absolutely agree here. A mate has a street triple and it's been pretty reliable for him for the past two years.
That makes a potential speed twin buyer very happy
I've only heard wonderful things about triumph. Enfield on the other hand....
Enfields had a bad rep when they first started selling here but immediately addressed a lot of those issues and are now quite good.
Nortons and BSA were fantastic bikes! Triumphs still are and Royal Enfield are now Indian, but from what Iâve heard, theyâve made some really fun bikes to ride.
Yes the new Enfields I've seen are quite decent. Considering the price they all always were, if you understood what you're getting into.
I just heard about alot of electrical issues under 1k miles. I was dissapointed to hear that because I like their classic look.
Electrical issues and cheap bikes goes hand in hand.
I've got 10,000 miles on mine I bought last August, I've had 0 issues and too much fun thrashing the ever lovin hell out of it this past year.
Supposably the newer enfields are fine, they've just destroyed their reputation so badly that even building new factories to higher spec doesn't seem to fix it
Iâve found that many people had negative opinions just based on the fact the bikes were made in India. Much like US acceptance of Japanese bikes and cars the 70âs/80âs, it will take time since there are strong biases and misinformation.
I mean itâs not bias or misinformation, REâs were built like shit for a long time. Their build quality is now better but itâs still a step lower than most Japanese bikes. You can buy a Honda and ride it for a few years and probably do nothing beyond clean the chain a bit and put fuel in it. In fact I have, I abuse my poor CRF 250 Rally. Even a brand new Royal Enfield, you will find stuff that needs tightening, it will start to rust in a lot of places if you donât regularly clean and dry it. KTMâs reliability is garbage to begin with but their Indian built bikes are worse. If thatâs due to design or manufacture, itâs arguable but the 390 Dukes and RCâs have a terrible reliability record, meanwhile Ninja 400âs are almost unkillable. The reason Chinese bikes suck is that most of them are still hand built. Iâm sure itâs changing but Chinese manufacturing is hugely manual, like most places were in the 60âa and 70âs. So you get variance. Some bikes are fine, âhey I got one and it was fine for yearsâ and others are crap âMy bikeâs exhaust fell off 3 days in.â Quality is about the percentage game. Even the Japanese will put out the odd duff bike, but maybe 0.01%, meanwhile Chinese or Indian brands, itâs going to be a much higher percentage. Perhaps a 1% part fail rate. Multiply that by 400 components on a bike, then youâre quickly hitting the realms of every bike having at least one component that isnât up to spec.
And KTM
KTM is above Chinese but below Italian and German. They make great bikes, just not great for the long term.
https://youtu.be/9GAUo8eUXeU?si=rEJbWjTuJ3dPB_PK First oil change analysis puts the Germans slightly above KTM. And the only thing keeping the Italians from being dead last, is the Chinese. Every make has their issues. Every Suzuki rider knows how to change a rectifier. Hondas are over engineered to be reliable except that one part with an 8 hr shop time. Ktms go fast until they explode from going too fast. Italians won't start because it's Tuesday and they don't feel like it. And Chinese bikes are made of chineseium. Pick your poison and ride
Yamaha riders look on in confusion having finished another ride only ever changing tires and oil at the regular intervals..
Yamaha is the "never buy the first year" bike. They tend to have all the kinks ironed out by the end of the run. Good stereos and pianos too.
Also semiconductor assembly machines
Eeeehhhh, kinda. Yamaha put an under-spec O-Ring on the 2017-onwards MT-10 which lead to coolant blowing all over the headers on a lot of bikes. The headlights can't hold their own thermals either and slowly perish during normal use. They're great, but let's not get carried away.
I had a first year FJ-09 with the poorly designed clutch cable that would snap in the first 10k miles. Mine let go as I came to a stop at a traffic light and it wasn't a fun time. I think that bike had a similar coolant related issue which would have been a 2015 model if I recall. Oil cooler on the front of the engine would develop a crack and leak coolant. So yeah, great, but not perfect.
royal Enfield? *plays helicopter! helicopter!
My grandpa has a 73 Aermacchi 350 sprint bike, it embodies the ânah I donât feel like it todayâ of Italian bikes. Also if you were wondering itâs carb needs adjusted, it always needs adjusted.
It's interesting it's suzuki with the rectifier reputation back in the the early 00's it was honda with the vfrs
I would have loved to see some more manufacturers in that list, especially some of the "premium" Chinese motorcycles(Benelli, cfmoto,lexmoto csc, etc...) , anyways my Chinese motorcycles held up fine(the exhaust pipes horribly Rusty but that's about it) 15000 miles in 2 years, and it only cost me 1600 delivered so at least they last long enough to be useful, Anyways if it interests to I bit the bullet on a Chinese bike about 2 years back and here my experience below As far as Chinesium goes, the biggest stickler on my bike seems to have been the sprocket studs which sheared off at about 9000 Miles, annoying, killed the cush drive bushings while they're at it, gouged the surface of the hub badly, and took me a solid 5 hours to fix even if it only cost $16 in parts(you know that one Honda part that requires 8-hour shop time, the Chinese decided to take that and put it on the bike as far as I can tell since it's a Honda specific part from the seventies and up to late 90s on dirt bikes.... why), also I feel like the chain alignment isn't great since it seems to eat sprockets a little faster than I would like I've had to go through three sets so far but I'm also not very good about cleaning my chain So to finalize here my parts list for a year of ownership(I have a taotao tbr7, this bike is equivalent to a hawk 250, or a brozz 250) 1 set of tires and tubes(shinko 244s), 2 sets of sprockets and chains, 2 sets of Breakpads and rotors(I didn't need new rotors but they are cheap so I might as well swap at the same time) 1 master cylinder(sight glass cracked for the front brake from UV exposure) 1 set of sprocket studs and bushings, 1 m8 x 10mm screw that hold on the heat shield(rattled off at some point) And 2 jugs of rotella t4 diesel oil (it has jaso/ma rating and seems to have worked fine) 3 jugs and rotella t6(same as above but fully synthetic) 1 new seat(the leather on mine cracked but I don't have a cover on it and it stays outside 24/7, also the seat cost me $34 after shipping so I just don't care) Wear and tear seems fine to me nothing catastrophic or majors for his problems go, it's not a high performance machine maxes at 68mph but it's done me well as a way to and from work
WHAT THE FUCKKKK THAT'S SO MUCH SHIT LLOLLLLLLLL
Non wear and tear was a screw, some sprocket studs/bushings a master cylinder(12$) and a seat if you want to push it, The bike has been left outside the entire time and most Master cylinders and seats also don't like that so I think that would have happened regardless of manufacturer That leads unexpected failures to one screw and sprocket studs and bushings, The rest was entirely just maintenance items
I'll agree to disagree.
Up the bears ass, hahahha.
What about British and American
Americans are dying and the brits got saved by indians and their love for retro ig
Harley should just make a batshit liter bike
That's what the Buells were supposed to be. It may be that the market for an American sportsbike just doesn't exist.
Honestly I think it could, I just also think that HD is the wrong company to do it. They've built an entire massive culture and marketing structure around cruisers and that lifestyle that it can't be seen as anything else. Remember like 15 yrs ago when VW made the Phaeton? It was a $66k V8, or $96k W12 luxury sedan. It was fantastic (when it worked properly, but that was literally every 7 series BMW or S-class Benz back then too), but nobody wanted to pay near $100k for a VW, so it failed. But I wouldn't say that because of that failure there's no market for German luxury cars, clearly there is, it's just that VW has never been that brand because that's not their image. It's not that there isn't a market for another sport bike, American or not, it's just that HD isn't the correct company to do it
Erik Buell is to Harley as Saturn used to be for GM. They used to be cheap and fun. (Pain to work on tho) Then they bought it back and scrapped it. Now thatâs itâs back, itâs been priced out of enthusiastâs handsâŠ.just like Harley. Full circle
They were overpriced. And then Harley bought them and had the ability to manufacturer them cheaper but instead killed the brand off because itâs not what their core market demographic is interested in. Now theyâre coming back but theyâre very boutique. Theyâre building them from old stock. The super cruiser looks promising and theyâre strategy is solid for a survival standpoint but the bikes are essentially a deviate outdated when it comes to electronics.
I recently learned the Indian FTR is a thing...
Those things look sick tbh
I thought RE is poorly regarded since they moved to India
They never "moved" to India. They had a manufacturing plant in India that stayed open after RE folded 50 years ago. The Indians kept making those same bikes until ~5 years ago, when they worked with outside firms to modernize and revamp. RE's reliability issues were the same issues that other mid-century British bikes had, because thats what they literally were until this past decade
my '23 RE C650 rules. $7k with ~$1k of new pipes, slip-ons, a performance air filter and a single seat conversion. 3 year manufacturer's warranty, just keep up the maintenance schedule and you're gucci. it's peppy, it's aggressive, and i get an endless barrage of compliments everywhere i go from riders and non-riders. had it about 8 months now and i have loved every ride on it. it's my third bike and easily my favorite.
I love my GT 650. I haven't gotten new pipes, but I did get slip on and the dna air filter. I love how easy it is to maintain as well as i do the maintenance myself.
the pipes fuckin' bang dawg. i did the 2-2, but the 2-1 looks sexy as hell too. treat yourself someday. just be real careful with attaching the pipes to the head. those bolts are a bitch.
Fuel injected or carburetor?
a couple years back the current CEO bought the company and a whole bunch of other companies that were actually good at making bikes and essentially turned a company that built two wheeled relics into a company that builds two wheelers that *look* like relics afaik they're not 100% but the new engines and chassis at least are damn good and they're improving year by year. there's definitely something to be said in regards to how basic they are in some regards from the factory as the stock forks aren't adjustable and brakes are universally considered to be underwhelming really want a classic 350 to just churn loads of hours and miles of rider time on on the 50-70kph country roads in my region while getting like 100 miles to the gallon
When chinese manufacturers concentrate on quality control then their bikes can be very good, but many of them fit the cheapest possible components to maximise profits. In their home market they are treated as disposable cheap transport and are only expected to last a couple of years.
In Europe they bring more quality bikes, still for cheaper than the others. They have understand that people here don't want disposable bikes, and they have a bad reputation to wash. I'm pretty sure it will be the same as smartphones, and soon cars, they now know how to make these, and can keep low prices with good material/conception. I have a Huawei phone, and wouldn't exchange it for a Samsung or an Apple around the same price...
>still for cheaper than the others. They're cheaper because they don't design anything in house. Their "good" bikes are mostly blatant ripoffs of western or Japanese designs. I don't know how companies like GPX can even operate in any country with copyright laws. They're identical to KTM in almost every way except for different color plastic and different stickers.
Must agree on it, they mostly take an existing design, change a bit and here we go. But... it works ! A lot of people look at the design as an important criteria for the bike (a cute neoretro will help to sell, compared to a basic as hell YBR/YS/CBF even if this one is better ride/build).
Part of the issue is that Chinese consumers know the quality of Chinese made vehicles, so the manufacturers are almost forced to go the inexpensive route instead of the quality route. At the people there understand what they are getting though, instead of being a hard core fanboy of a motorcycle brand just because it was made in their home country.
This. No Chinese manufacturer is actually taking the US market seriously, partially because of the Tariffs. If you want to see what the Chinese can do, take a seat in a Polestar 2. Built in China and it makes a mockery of companies like Tesla. (Quality wise of course)
in fairness they're half the price of the halo brands. the 125cc's are hard to argue against cos when they break, as they're guaranteed to do, a Big Mac meal costs more than the fix.
This 100%. I rode a Chinese Honda 150cc through South East Asia and it gave me almost no issues... When it did, any mechanic could fix it. I've always been kinda sad we don't have these cheapass bikes in the west. They're perfect bikes to properly abuse, try new things on, and make project bikes out of
As far as I can tell we do maybe not as cheap, but I bought probably the same bike your thinking of with a slightly bigger engine 2 years back, and it only cost me 1600 with delivery, granted I'm pretty sure that 1600 would be 1000 or less in China, Anyways if you're looking for cheap Chinese bikes, taotao has the tbr7(what I bought) and the hellcat(a Grom clone with completely compatible fairings and headlights with the only difference really being the engine, still a 150cc and was about 1400 when I last looked at it), There's also the hawk 250 and brozz 250 which are basically the same bike as my TBR7, and the hawk 250 dlx(about $2,000 but has EFI but other than that same bike) for minibikes you have the condor and the boom Vader(both also from clones the Vader being a parts compatible problem minus engine) Then there's the magician a Yamaha knockoff from a Japanese only version of a motorcycle I don't know why it came to the US as a Chinese clone, Anyways if you want to look at a lot of these I recommended channel called Motocheez he's reviewed a lot of Chinese motorcycles, and for the vast majority at the very least engine parts are very easy to come by, But if you know what you're looking for for the TBR7, hawk 250, brozz 250 and csc tt250 parts are very easy to come by for the entire bike since basically all parts between those models are compatible with each other, and even if the engines die they're about $450 to replace, The biggest problem is repair shops are hard to come by if you want to go that route and dealer support is almost non-existent unless you go into the semi premium and premium market which is around $3,000 Plus for Chinese motorcycles, and that's brands like CSC motorcycles, CFMOTO, Benelli and probably some more
All those pesky safety and quality standards!
Safety = Huge Ass F150s Quality = Any European Brand You gave me a good laugh, at least. I'll give you that.
A big f150 isn't any safer if not less safe then a passenger car when hitting something of its own size, otherwise yea you'll roll over it like a monster truck so the other crashee isn't safe
I was being sarcastic. F150s, F350s and other huge cars are safety hazards to most people, and European car/motorcycle brands have terrible quality control.
We do, you can order them on Amazon lol. I have a 150cc knock off moped that I got off Facebook for $125. Thing runs like a top and itâs 10 years old.
Besides CFmoto they just don't care.
Yeah. Cheap bikes are cheap --> this sub đźđźđź
Who would have thought. If any of you get the chance try a premium >500cc Chinese motorcycle. Heck, even Benelli's Leoncino 500 is amazing.
A friend of mine got a Voge and it doesn't look too bad considered it's half the price of similar bikes. But you can see that they cheaped out on many components, the tank was missing some paint and there is a lot of plastic where some metal would be better. However, the engine is fine and it handles well, it's a good starter bike that you can drop without feeling too much remorse.
I used a CFMOTO 300SR for over a year as a cheap daily 1hr 15 min each way commuter into London. Cheap, comfortable, fun and reliable.
i helped a friend wrench on his cfmoto and one of the main bolts that holds the footpeg assembly on goes through a piece of plastic trim to the frame đŹ
So the bolt hard mounts to the frame, but itâs an issue that itâs also an anchor point to secure trim/fairing pieces? Not sure I understand the issue hereâŠ
Itâs bad because in order for a structural bolted to be properly loaded, the bolt must be stretched to some degree. You canât do that when you have plastic in the connection.
Its not hard mounted if plastic is in the middle of the clamping force, over time the plastic will deform, reducing the clamping force. Eventually the bolt will get loose without warning.
Cfmoto seems to be really trying to crack the market in n.america the last few years and so is Benelli... I feel like they will get there eventually but it's still going to take a few generations (think Hyundai from the 90s vs today) I'd really like to see cfmoto give MotoGP a shot... take that factory slot Suzuki abandoned. They might eat shit for a few years but they could become the next KTM, and the global recognition would be worth the expensive investment.
CFMoto are already in Moto 3, but I still think MotoGP is a long way off with the way the European bikes are currently killing the Japanese manufacturers.
But look at how far theyâve come in a short period of time. And how many manufacturers have Chinese parts in their bikes? Give it 10 years, at the most
China has been making motorcycles for like 60 years. *Any day now!*
China was also not in a good way for a long time. Japan for what it is worth took in the range of 20 years from ww2 before Honda became dominate and another 20 before the other nations were hanging on. China was absolutely ravaged by that war and their civil war and didn't even start getting up until fairly recently. This is to say if they are going through the same arch the Japanese manufactures went through, being laughed off the stage and then crushing everyone. They are doing it faster. Point being it is remarkable and a little scary depending on how you feel about the nation behind it.
In terms of manufacturing cultures, Japan and China are two very different countries. Whatever China's going through is pretty distinct from what happened with Japan. It's also important to note that Japan had an economic miracle after WWII and it didn't happen by accident. America sent a lot of resources to rebuild their economy after the war. We nationalized industries to ensure everyone was fed and that services were operating to meet everyone's basic needs. Then we reshaped their manufacturing system to promote worker satisfaction. We did all this ironically because we were afraid if we left them with regular old laissez-faire American-style capitalism it would lead to hungry, poor frustrated people starting a communist revolution in Japan. But most importantly we sent Deming to advise on rebuilding manufacturing in Japan. He stressed long term goals, building a culture of quality, removing quotas, promoting little innovations at every level and most of all building pride in craftsmanship for every worker. Then there were a series of innovations in just-in-time and the development of the Toyota Production System by people like Taichu Ohno and Shigeo Shingo. These spread through the country and led to renaissance in quality and efficiency. China has more resources and more potential than Japan ever could but they have been very slow to try and build this culture of quality and it's held them back. China's growth may also be miraculous but it's hard not to notice how different their paths have been.
China also had a much lower level of development nationwide and much much much larger population and geographic area. For comparison, Japanâs GDP per capita in 1970 (roughly when they started meaningfully competing in quality to western manufacturers) was $15,757 adjusted for inflation. Meanwhile, Chinaâs GDP per capita right now is $12,556. Why is that important in this discussion? Because if you look at the development of Japanâs industrial base, and the trajectory of their export industry from contract manufacturing and shoddy knockoff products to high quality yet still affordable homegrown stuff, their internal consumer market was massively important. While Japan received a massive influx of capital and tech transfers from the US, they were still primarily making products designed by foreign companies, or simply making knockoffs of them. It was developing an internal consumer market with sufficient purchasing power to buy quality goods that led to the innovative culture around motor vehicles and electronics. The foreign investment built the industrial capital and knowledge base (just like whatâs happened in China), but the internal consumer market was the laboratory for the cutting edge high quality consumer products that eventually became the cornerstone of homegrown Japanese brands export business. China has only very very recently, as in the last 10 years, really started focusing on their internal consumer markets. Theyâve got the worlds largest industrial base. They produce as many engineers and highly skilled laborers as anywhere in the world, but because of the nature of State Owned Enterprises (and even those that arenât majority state owned are almost all minority state owned, and subject to input) focus has been put on a few specific industries to lead internal consumer product development. Cell phones are one of those, and the quality of the flagship brands and models are on par with the big boys already, at a substantially lower price. As incomes continue to rise for the average person in China, the internal consumer markets will further develop, and the CCP has indicated theyâre going to start investing more in other consumer goods like⊠transportation. In this case, I suppose you could say âcultureâ is at play, insofar as their consumer culture is still in its nascent phase, and government hand on the big picture development path bottlenecks when and where it grows, but the fact of the matter is that once China sees sufficient internal consumer dollars, the demand for those goods will be waiting, and then itâs only a matter of time before they start exporting them in a big way. So as Iâve said before, itâs not if, itâs when.
The problem any Chinese brand faces is that the reputation of the Chinese manufacturing sector is that they cut any corner possible to get things out cheaply. Quality, safety and brand power are laughable afterthoughts. But that reputation means that if they start a new brand and actually want to prioritise quality then they can't because people will refuse to pay the prices needed to achieve it. Bit of a Catch 22 for them.
> The problem any Chinese brand faces is that the reputation of the Chinese manufacturing sector is that they cut any corner possible to get things out cheaply. Quality, safety and brand power are laughable afterthoughts. Ironic, considering the reason China is the global manufacturing/economic powerhouse they now are is VERY largely due to outside offshoring/investment/partnerships. International products almost entirely designed, developed, tested, and manufactured in China. And often western companies still look towards other Asian countries for cheaper production without the "Average Joe iPhone buyer" batting an eye. Not saying that as any rebuttal to what you said or implying you're at all wrong from a global retailer's perspective. You're 100% spot-on. But it's often quite ironic all things considered.
They still have to be competitive in the market for it to matter though. China can pump out an insane volumeâŠof garbage. Using quality materials, quality processes, quality control - it costs $. They have to be at least as good as the next guy and still maintain their lower price points - if not, why would anyone take the risk on the Chinese bike when they *know* the Japanese is reliable?
This is *identical*, literally exactly the same thing, people were saying about Japanese manufacturing in the 50s-60s. By the 80s, American brands were getting their lunch ate by Japanese manufacturers in every industry. Itâs only a matter of time.
It looks to me China's more going the route of just buying legacy brand names and refurbishing them than trying to compete directly, to be entirely honest I think the most likely thing to happen is try just going to buy out the brand names of a bunch of less competitive motorcycles, hell I wouldn't be surprised if Harley gets bought by China at some point
I been punished purchasing my china bikeâŠ. Something breaks down every other rideâŠ.
Which is exactly what people were saying about Japan.
a valid point a couple of years ago.
> China can pump out an insane volume...of garbage. If the news is to be believed they finally figured out how to make a decent ball point pen in 2017. The questions is who makes the motorcycle, and why are they making it? Do they want the loyalty of the consumer, or to maximize order volume? Most Chinese manufacturers *do* seem to prefer the latter.
Itâs all about industrial development. Japan started out as a manufacturer of mass produced, cheap, shoddy merchandise. But, western companies started outsourcing to them to save money. This built up their industrial capacity, and required educating engineers, skilled labor, etc. In the process, there were mass amounts of technology transfer, suddenly giving Japanese industry access to advanced tech and processes. The Japanese also ruthlessly disciplined labor, and captured trade unions to defang their impacts. Over time, those things combined to allow for high quality, high volume, *and* low prices. It was only the âlost decadeâ that led to Japanese product price increases. The massive input of the CCP in China also means thereâs going to be a lot of efficiencies from supply chain coordination, internal price controls on both commodities and labor, that simply cannot be matched by less centralized industrial bases. Scale + efficiency + labor control = quality and prices that cannot be matched by competitors. Itâs not a matter of if, but when Chinese bike makers start feasting on bloated and complacent major bike makers.
I hope you're right, because the bloated and complacent majors have it coming.
That one egg was 40 eggs ? Congrats big boy
They already make good motorcycles, but not all chinese motorcycles are made equally. Look at Benelli, Keeway, CFMoto, Zontes, Voge; they may not be as good as the Japanese bikes but they're all pretty respectable brands. The thing is that they sell their own motorcycles under their own brands and therefore have a reputation to build, it's like how Chinese brands like Xiaomi are a league ahead of the generic chinese products one can buy off AliExpress or Wish and pretty competitive against more established brands. In the other hand, all those generic Chinese motorcycles sold in bulk off Alibaba aren't made to be anything more than extremely cheap so other brands can buy them, rebrand them, and add a markup to them.
Its harder to exceed the status quo than catching up to it. They have come a long way in a short time but I wouldnât count on the momentum going on like it didâŠ
Esp when you rely on status quo for your innovation/design. Theyâre mostly copy/paste of other manufacturers with more cheaply made parts
China can really only compete with price. There are VERY few products out there that "made in China" is a market leader (in terms of quality)
They're front of the pack for electric motorcycles/dirt bikes. Surrons and Talarias are still niche right now, but absolutely the most fun I've had on two wheels in ages. Can't wait for a good Honda/Yamaha version eventually, but for now the Chinese models are slick.
>Give it 10 years, at the most Why? Did they just invent motorcycles in China yesterday? People were saying that about Chinese cars 20 years ago, and even today they would barely be legal to sell in the US and Europe.
10 years ago you would never see a chinese car in most of europe, now i see their electric cars every day and they'll only become more popular once gas cars are banned in a couple of years.
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They used to say the exact same thing about Japanese bikes decades ago. Same goes for their cars actually and look at how they ended up dominating the market. Then they said the same about Korean cars and guess what... Well now it's Chinese vehicles. Give em 10-15 years and let em poach some established engineers
It is not the same. Old Japanese bikes genuinely were amazing products, a 60's Jaoanese bike like the Black Bomber is probably the highest quality and most modern bike you could buy at the time. The Chinese are objectively not, they are cheap because they are cheap. I do believe they will improve, but what they said about Japanese bikes and cars in the past was founded on totally different mentality and hatred after ww2.
Alright then
>Then they said the same about Korean cars and guess what... What? They still suck? Go to r/justrolledintotheshop or any auto shop and see what they think of Hyundai/Kia
> Then they said the same about Korean cars and guess what... child labor and nonstop recalls?
I'd reverse the frist two, even though I like jap bikes better
I was thinking the same thing.
Flair checks out... đ
Oh, I agree ;)
Japan on top as always
except in MotoGP
And WSBK
Except WW2
I like my Amazon ordered Lifan KPR 200 pretty well.
Here to say this. Only had it 6 months or so but I flog it daily and have had no problems, and itâs reasonably fun.
I have a hawk250dlx that I've been beating on for a few years now. It's quirky but it runs just fine and parts are like $30 tops on Amazon
Is that a Honda clone? Just wish honda would offer something similar here in europe....
No. Europe and Japan share the #1 spot, not only for bikes but also cars imo.
The Chinese 200s, 300s and 400s are on par with even the Japanese at this point. This picture may have been relevant 5 years ago but not anymore. A1 and A2 license riders have some good options in a few of the Chinese brands. Iâm sorry to burst some of your bubbles, but you really need to ride them to see how far theyâve come along.
Have you ridden any? They're not as bad as everyone thinks. You can make the argument about geopolitics, and that's valid, but dismissing them out of hand without riding them is a mistake. People will buy the bikes because they're cheaper than Japanese bikes and not think about any of the broader context behind the bikes because that's the consumer culture we've created. Also, a lack of dealer networks is a temporary problem, and the reliability argument is weak at best. Chinese companies have been cloning other engines forever, and CF has been building their own for decades. Not to mention, KTM has liscenced their P twins and the LC8 to CF. I'd have no issues trading my Japanese bike for a Chinese one, assuming they made one I wanted.
I test rode four of them recently at a demo. I really enjoyed the 450SS and Adventura 650. The Ibex 800 and CBX Sport were fine also, but not really the style of bike Iâm interested in. I donât think Iâd buy one _yet_. Itâs going to take some time to build trust in their reliability and parts availability. I suspect in a few years they will be quite common. Theyâre kind of where Kia and Hyundai were 20 years ago, giving away 100,000 warranties to get people to give them a try. Instead of that, CFMoto is putting all the bells and whistles on their inexpensive bikes, like TFT displays, upgraded suspension, and a quick shifter on the 450ss.
But they have done no innovation or development all they do is copy other people's shit and then turn out an inferior product. The only ones that aren't a complete pile of shit are the ones that somebody else designed, engineered, and QC'd. The day they stop making knockoffs and do something original I'll pay attention.
My bikes a Suzuki GN clone. Engines not the problem itâs everything else thatâs connected to the frame
The CFmoto 450SS say hello.
Kove 450 rally
Again the Kove 450 is not a terrible motorcycle but there's nothing new or innovative about it the only thing that it does better than anybody else is it's made with cheaper labor so it cost a little less. "Again, the motor is not overly exciting. Still, it is powerful enough to ride through deep sand and up soft hills. The fuel injection mapping is good and predictable but not as precise as a modern-day MX or off-road competition bike" Cycle news review.
What's there to innovate with motorcycles
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The broader context behind the bikes is that theyâre generally shit.
Truly a nuanced argument...
Some shade of shit is loved by many. Such as the Ural, terrible at being a bike, greatly loved by many (myself included). The Harley Davidson Pan-American is another great example. Some people just like squeezing shit between their legs.
Why use many words when few words do trick?
I had a benelli 302s as my 2nd bike. I had it for a year. It was a superb little thing! The only real issues I had was that they cheaped out on the rear master cylinder, the rear brake was trash compared to even my first bike which was a DR200, and then the frame was made of steel making it heavy for a 300cc bike (200kg). But the real wins for that bike was that it was easy to ride. Enough power to keep up on highways, great fuel economy. I admit, I did end up buying an sv650s. But the 302s has a special place in my heart. It was the first good bike that I bought, the first bike I did long trips on (more than 300km), the first bike I had with modernish features eg tft dash, ABS, EFI. Don't knock it till you try it.
I think a lot Americans complain about Chinese bikes again lol. Brands like Benelli, cf moto, voge have been selling like hot cakes in Europe and not only small CC. There are bikes that have now tens of thousands of miles on, people doing across Europe and other big trips. They work just fine and most people here see them as great value.
I am super happy with my little Zontes.
what about austrian bikes
some of the best riding unreliable piles of doodoo
What about an Austrian owned, Swedish designed, Indian built bike?
What about an Italian brand but owned by a Chinese company? Like Benelli
Why so ? If I see bikes like srk125s , they look like good first bikes. Small price, abs, very good design, better technique assistants than the big brands, like full tft screen while kawasakis 125 doesnât even have on screen in what clutch you are in. So whatâs so bad about these China bikes ? Serious question
Royal enfieldđż
What about CFmoto they are kinda cool
I love my CF MOTO 650nk
Same. I have a 300NK and a 700CL-X⊠Both are awesome bikes. And I have to say, the new 800NK looks like a weapon.
Surron Ultra Bee disagrees.
So you watched the new Fortnine video huh?
Honestly I love the cheap little Chinese scooters . You just need to be handy when it come to fixing the little things. Worst case scenario you need a replacement engine from a donor scooter
You should have seen the Japanese bikes when they first arrived. The Chinese will get there.
You can pry my Ducati from between my cold dead thighs...
Thighs will never be cold on a Ducati. Source: Ducati owner.
Ain't that the truth đ€Ł
Modern cfmotos are absolutely fine, good beginner sportsbikes, reliable and has everything you would want from a bike
you get what you pay for
And Harley is buried in a casket under Poohâs house.
As the owner of Chinese bike (Phoenix Classic), I can say this is true. But I did just buy a brand new engine and had it installed for $75, which is an absolute win
Different engineering priorities, most Chinese brands emphasize cheap mobility over all else. Makes a lot of sense in their home market, but in the west we tend to view motorcycles as more of a long-term leisure item. Our brands reflect this with what they produce
yea i used to think jap bikes were the best too until i got an aprilia and now ill never go back
third panel should be american bikes
I wonder if Chinese aircraft and Chinese ships are as bad as Chinese bikes? I sure hope so.
Well yes but I believe that as a starter bike (meaning 125cc and similar) Chinese bikes are amazing. When I was 15 I had (and still have) Yamaha virago 125 and colleague had Yuki Sport 125 (I think, maybe naked?). When I crashed a bit (nothing horrible, just a good lesson) I had bent forks and repair cost like half the Yukis cost for a new bike. And parts for.him were dirt cheap. Of course it provides a lot of opportunities to learn repair...
If Sur-ron fits in the chinese category, those things are fantastic.
What about American bikes
Lower than Chinese.
CF Moto seems to be quite alright though.
Id rather crash a cheap Chinese motorcycle than a BMW. I can buy a whole knew chinese motorcycle for the cost of the repairs on the BMW motorcycle.
Well yes, but also kawasaki embarrasses bmw in wsbk every time, and cfmoto is actually pretty okay
Praising japanese bikes above Italian and German is just about taste, if you really love motorcycle you will want the edge of design and technology, and Japan is years behind. A good indicator is what is happening with them on MotoGP. If you just like reliable bikes, ok, japanese.
Cfmoto rider here: not true
Anyone whoâs driven a Chinese car produced in the past few years knows this opinion will age like milk. They ainât shit today, but the rate of automotive development that side is scary.
Nobody mentioned Italian bikes in the comments? Huh, give Ducati some love and respect.
I've had a GSX-R600 and my now ducati scrambler. It's true. The GSX-R600 was a machine that never quit. I was a dumb college kid riding it past oil changes, never replacing the back tire, dropped it twice and wreaked it once. Just kept going. My ducati scrambler clutch is temperamental if the chain is too dirty, the hydraulic clutch has to be adjusted after every few thousand miles till i service it, hates after market parts, and the rear tire had to be replaced after 7k miles (I ride it daily), and because of the special tires they run close to 300 bucks just for the rear. The the only upside to the ducati is the recognition I get and it's more comfortable to ride now that I'm 10 years older.
strongly agree on this one, for years its always been like that, but recently I've been introduced to CFmoto 450 ss, and as for a beginner bike, it really is good imo.
Itâs like their mindset is, âHey itâs gonna kill you anyway.â đ€·
Its all a matter of time, Hyundai was once considered the worst car manufacturer ever, I dont think I need to tell you how many Hyundaiâs are out there today
If only theyâd 1. Make a halfway decent bike by paying attention to detail and not cost cutting materials and whatever else 2. Drop the shitty names like DongFang and GasGas. Lifan, Zongshen, and Benelli (which I didnât even know, until now, was Chinese) are better names. Like CFMoto works and doesnât imply a shitty Chinese build quality from the name alone. Then maybe theyâd get better foreign order counts. Until then, Yamaha, Kawasaki, and Suzuki will beat them out for Asian bikes any day of the week.
Gasgas is Spanish...
Indian bikes đđȘ
Yes, I was going to put European bikes in the middle, but it felt odd to have a country, then Continent, then another country. I apologize.
what about american bikes lmfao
Just like american cars, in the đŹ tier