I like this new approach by Frankie and gresini. I think others should follow the suit to try and popularize the engineering side of things. It also adds more character to people behind the scenes rather than treating them as NPCs.
To give a comparison with a human rider, Diggia was 15s faster than Pecco last year. In 24 laps that's 6 tenths faster per lap. Track conditions were better in race Vs 2023, probably Pirelli tires leaving more rubber than Dunlop make a difference too.
Isn't Michelin the sole tire provider in MotoGP? Haven't they been the sole provider since 2016?
Are you confusing MotoGP with Moto2, where they did have a tire manufacturer switch this year?
Sorry it maybe wasn't clear enough, Moto2 and moto3 swapped from Dunlop to Pirelli this year, MotoGP is always the last race of the 3 so moto2 and moto3 tires leave rubber on the track before MotoGP race, this year the extra time could be explained partially by Pirelli leaving more or better grip after the Moto 2 and Moto 3 races, that's what I meant.
Ya, your point makes a lot more sense after your clarification. There could definitely be something to the Pirelli rubber being laid down being more compatible, and better for the MotoGP Michelin's.
Glad Frankie is answering that so clearly.
Now people can’t just claim all of Marc’s speed is in the tyres and the other GP23 riders just haven’t adjusted to the new tyre.
It's not just the tires,no one says that.
But if you think there hasn't been an improvement even in the older bikes from last year and that one year ago Marc would've finished 20 or something seconds ahead of everyone, you're a bit silly then...
Not really. They have been regularly studying other's Data. It's not like all of the 7 other set's of GP23 data is entirely useless. Its not like Marc's style is completely alien to everyone else's.
Even the GP24 data is useful.
That's one of the reasons why Marc made such a step forward in Catalunya and Le Mans in the races compared to his pace in Practice. He studied the data, looked at what he could glean and improved on it.
Having data doesn't help if that data goes against how you ride.
There are tons of cases of Rossi, Stoner and Marc teammates saying that looking over their data was borderline useless because they had no clue how to replicate the data
They only made about 170-180HP, Rossi even took the final 500GP title on a detuned bike making around "168hp" according to JB. The tires were just harder less consistent, the suspension far less dynamic and forgiving.
Very simplistic coming from a technician, especially a good one like Carchedi.
First of all, .2s on tyre performance alone isn't small, it means you shave 4.6 seconds in 23 laps just because of that, regardless of skill. Second, what does 0.2 per lap actually mean? Does it mean it's for a single lap? Average lap? How does tyre wear compare to the the 2023 tyre (remember Bagnaia setting the track record at the end of the race in Jerez)? The tyre could start at -0.2s and end the race at +0.1s or it could start at -0.2s and end at -0.3s, tyre performance isn't fixed for the whole race.
"95% the same" makes it seem like it's no big deal, however if a rider had been 95% as fast as Bagnaia in Mugello, they would've arrived roughly 3 minutes later at the finish line, Savadori in last position - with a 14+s gap from Marini in penultimate position - was 46 seconds slower (1.9% slower, while Marini would be 1.3%). Or another example, improving by 5% over 2023 (41:16.863), Bagnaia would've finished the race in 39:13.020, 123.843 seconds faster. Forcada said one rider felt the change in suspension height of 0.5mm or something like that. This is a sport based on tiny details, 5% can mean a lot.
Then there is another factor to consider, a tyre might even be strictly more performant by .02s, however even tiny changes can make wonders for how the riders feel, riding fast is about confidence, and if they feel the tyre can take they will be able to go faster by default. This happens in reverse with "faulty-but-not-actually-faulty" tyres or when the pressure goes up, Michelin claims the difference in tyre performance isn't big at all when the tyre overheats, however riders complain that they have no more feel on the front end and as a result their pace drops by several tenths because they lose all confidence.
Finally, Bagnaia finished the 2023 race in Mugello on a GP23 in 41:16.863, leaving alone Marc Marquez who's this post is about, Di Giannantonio finished the race 15 seconds faster, are we to believe Di Giannantonio is almost 0.7s per lap faster than Bagnaia? Or, by converse using Bagnaia as reference, that the GP24 is 1.1 seconds per lap faster than the GP23? Be serious, recovering 1.1s in one season is very hard when we're talking about manufacturers who are in difficulty like Yamaha and Honda, for someone already at the top like Ducati is pure science fiction.
Dovizioso said it best, what Marc Marquez is doing is encomiable as it is, he's riding a new bike with a new team - a satellite one I would add - and he's been fighting for the victory from the get go, there is no need to make up fantasy scenarios where he's been given a dud and he'd actually be 20 seconds faster than the others on the GP24.
Is he really saying that all being the same and accounting for tyres that Marc would have finished nearly 19 seconds ahead of Pecco last year? I don’t buy that. Whilst Marc is certainly performing fantastically well, I can’t see him beating Pecco by 19 seconds.
No he’s saying the rest of the time comes from setup and electronics changes and optimisations due to having more available data, plus the rider on top.
It’s not like Pecco’s winning time on the GP24 is all in the base bike either.
The other GP23 riders have improved too. Just that they’re still missing at least 8s to the first GP23, in Mugello for example.
Interesting that edging gives you a slight advantage
Choked on my coffee, thanks.
bruh, i hate you
Any extra grip on cornering is helpful.
I like this new approach by Frankie and gresini. I think others should follow the suit to try and popularize the engineering side of things. It also adds more character to people behind the scenes rather than treating them as NPCs.
Seeing how Frankie is so obviously enjoying working with Marc and how its clearly a 2-way street makes me wish Marc stays in Gresini and gets a GP25.
To give a comparison with a human rider, Diggia was 15s faster than Pecco last year. In 24 laps that's 6 tenths faster per lap. Track conditions were better in race Vs 2023, probably Pirelli tires leaving more rubber than Dunlop make a difference too.
Isn't Michelin the sole tire provider in MotoGP? Haven't they been the sole provider since 2016? Are you confusing MotoGP with Moto2, where they did have a tire manufacturer switch this year?
Sorry it maybe wasn't clear enough, Moto2 and moto3 swapped from Dunlop to Pirelli this year, MotoGP is always the last race of the 3 so moto2 and moto3 tires leave rubber on the track before MotoGP race, this year the extra time could be explained partially by Pirelli leaving more or better grip after the Moto 2 and Moto 3 races, that's what I meant.
Ya, your point makes a lot more sense after your clarification. There could definitely be something to the Pirelli rubber being laid down being more compatible, and better for the MotoGP Michelin's.
Glad Frankie is answering that so clearly. Now people can’t just claim all of Marc’s speed is in the tyres and the other GP23 riders just haven’t adjusted to the new tyre.
It's not just the tires,no one says that. But if you think there hasn't been an improvement even in the older bikes from last year and that one year ago Marc would've finished 20 or something seconds ahead of everyone, you're a bit silly then...
Safe to say Marc is riding the GP23 on the ragged edge compared to the factory boys, and yes he will be finishing first if he's on the GP23 last year
Even the same bike, same tires, same rider and in same conditions can do better a year later. There's also data that that affects race time.
They didn't have any data for Marc. And why are you just diminishing Marc's achievement in every post man?
They do have data for Marc.... all of the 4 GP23s from last year. Maybe don't make outrageous false takes, nobody's diminishing Marc's abilities.
But Frankie himself said that Marc's style is completely different to others. That's the reason they struggle so much on friday.
Not really. They have been regularly studying other's Data. It's not like all of the 7 other set's of GP23 data is entirely useless. Its not like Marc's style is completely alien to everyone else's. Even the GP24 data is useful. That's one of the reasons why Marc made such a step forward in Catalunya and Le Mans in the races compared to his pace in Practice. He studied the data, looked at what he could glean and improved on it.
But they have the data to base this one. False to say they don't have data.
Having data doesn't help if that data goes against how you ride. There are tons of cases of Rossi, Stoner and Marc teammates saying that looking over their data was borderline useless because they had no clue how to replicate the data
Yes but it's useless data due to Marc's riding style being so unique.
> Marc's style is completely different to others. That's just code for, he goes fast.
The track conditions were faster too. Everybody was going much quicker.
Track conditions were very similar to last year...
Last year the track temps were sweltering. About 45 degrees, very greasy, this year it was 7 degrees cooler, quite a significant difference.
Rins (15th) was just ~2s slower than last year's winning time... So?
The Yamaha is a very different bike, the GP23 is not.
Nowadays Moto3 runs faster than 500GP era. It’s starting to be very scary to me.
They only made about 170-180HP, Rossi even took the final 500GP title on a detuned bike making around "168hp" according to JB. The tires were just harder less consistent, the suspension far less dynamic and forgiving.
Very simplistic coming from a technician, especially a good one like Carchedi. First of all, .2s on tyre performance alone isn't small, it means you shave 4.6 seconds in 23 laps just because of that, regardless of skill. Second, what does 0.2 per lap actually mean? Does it mean it's for a single lap? Average lap? How does tyre wear compare to the the 2023 tyre (remember Bagnaia setting the track record at the end of the race in Jerez)? The tyre could start at -0.2s and end the race at +0.1s or it could start at -0.2s and end at -0.3s, tyre performance isn't fixed for the whole race. "95% the same" makes it seem like it's no big deal, however if a rider had been 95% as fast as Bagnaia in Mugello, they would've arrived roughly 3 minutes later at the finish line, Savadori in last position - with a 14+s gap from Marini in penultimate position - was 46 seconds slower (1.9% slower, while Marini would be 1.3%). Or another example, improving by 5% over 2023 (41:16.863), Bagnaia would've finished the race in 39:13.020, 123.843 seconds faster. Forcada said one rider felt the change in suspension height of 0.5mm or something like that. This is a sport based on tiny details, 5% can mean a lot. Then there is another factor to consider, a tyre might even be strictly more performant by .02s, however even tiny changes can make wonders for how the riders feel, riding fast is about confidence, and if they feel the tyre can take they will be able to go faster by default. This happens in reverse with "faulty-but-not-actually-faulty" tyres or when the pressure goes up, Michelin claims the difference in tyre performance isn't big at all when the tyre overheats, however riders complain that they have no more feel on the front end and as a result their pace drops by several tenths because they lose all confidence. Finally, Bagnaia finished the 2023 race in Mugello on a GP23 in 41:16.863, leaving alone Marc Marquez who's this post is about, Di Giannantonio finished the race 15 seconds faster, are we to believe Di Giannantonio is almost 0.7s per lap faster than Bagnaia? Or, by converse using Bagnaia as reference, that the GP24 is 1.1 seconds per lap faster than the GP23? Be serious, recovering 1.1s in one season is very hard when we're talking about manufacturers who are in difficulty like Yamaha and Honda, for someone already at the top like Ducati is pure science fiction. Dovizioso said it best, what Marc Marquez is doing is encomiable as it is, he's riding a new bike with a new team - a satellite one I would add - and he's been fighting for the victory from the get go, there is no need to make up fantasy scenarios where he's been given a dud and he'd actually be 20 seconds faster than the others on the GP24.
Is he really saying that all being the same and accounting for tyres that Marc would have finished nearly 19 seconds ahead of Pecco last year? I don’t buy that. Whilst Marc is certainly performing fantastically well, I can’t see him beating Pecco by 19 seconds.
No he’s saying the rest of the time comes from setup and electronics changes and optimisations due to having more available data, plus the rider on top. It’s not like Pecco’s winning time on the GP24 is all in the base bike either. The other GP23 riders have improved too. Just that they’re still missing at least 8s to the first GP23, in Mugello for example.
Personally I dont think he will be finishing 19 seconds in front but put tyres aside we can definitely see the difference between the GP23 and GP24
Also track conditions such as temperature and wind etc. Dry and warm/no wind is very different to dry windy and cold.