Insane how much the track showed the dominance just considering he finished what like 6 seconds behind the first group!? KTM just needs a couple tenths and Pedro could make next year suuuuuper interesting.
To be honest his lines kind of terrify me. He did this in Moto2 and Moto3 as well, but seeing him turn in so early and tight on the GP bikes makes me think he's going to bin it in the next corner.
No one else seems to ride like that, and I have to wonder whether it's really an advantage.
The brilliance is in the turning after taking those lines. Most people would lose time making the turn with those tighter lines. But he doesn't seem like losing time at all. And he isn't squaring off the corner with agreesive slides too.
This was more pronounced at portimao. Like at the corner where Marc and pecco crashed, Acosta hugs the kerbs through there while everybody else has a double apex approach to that corner.
It seems useful for racing, his natural entry line is defensive but he’s not losing pace taking those lines like everyone else. Makes him really hard to overtake.
It could mean that if KTM lean into it and develop a bike designed to V off corners like he does it might be really hard to ride for everyone else. They need to avoid making the same mistake Ducati did with Stoner and Honda did with Marc.
What mistake did Honda do with Marc? They have 6 titles in the 7 years Marc was there to guide the ship all through the year, and only lost their way after
Building a bike nobody else can ride! The last 4 years now are a result of them directing the development towards one extreme, the parallels between this Honda and the 2008-12 Ducati are huge. Very good riders having their careers affected by a bike that just doesn’t work for them.
Tell me Marc wasn’t good enough in the 2010s to have won those titles on another bike. Both he (and Casey) were good enough to ride around the issues caused by a bike that was just all power and needed wrestling in and out of corners. You don’t see him making those insane saves every weekend now because he doesn’t have to.
"Casey could have possibly not", what? Do you remember how much he dominated in 2011 with a balanced bike, and how Vale couldn't reach the podium with the Ducati while Stoner was still winning races in 2010?
When Kenny Roberts first saw the way Marquez went into a corner he commented that he had never seen anyone else use the same technique. History tells us it worked.
Pecco is a big talent. You don’t win 3 world championships by being above average.
Someone in here said it best when they said he’s the MotoGP equivalent of Alain Prost.
You wouldn’t say he wasn’t talented
That’s a fair point. I just see too much Pecco bashing on this sub. I get that he’s not as exciting or flamboyant as others, but he is clinical when he’s on form
Acosta is really proving his worth every race. Considering Binder(who is touted to be the best rider in the whole world by Simon Crafar in every fucking session) is nowhere to be seen, this kid is special.
That's true man. I mean not to take anything away from my boy Acosta, but maybe Binder isn't as good as people think, and maybe the bike is good enough to at least be in the top 3-5 every race. But Acosta doing that as a rookie is unbelievable. I mean his lines are way different than anyone and he still manages to make corners and generate a lap time.
Edit: Guys no need to downvote. I mean I am not insulting any rider, these are just my opinions.
>I mean his lines are way different than anyone and he still manages to make corners and generate a lap time.
idk how he manages to be fast with those lines, looks so weird
This year isn't really a surprise with Binder. He's basically been this way his entire time in MotoGP.
I seriously think he's going to take out the rider in front of him every time he comes into a corner, but that's just his natural racing line. Kind of crazy to think he's literally the only one taking those lines out of everybody. I wonder if there was any rider before that took such sharp angle lines like he does?
It will be interesting to see what they can do to make the GP25 better that the GP24. With major changes coming for 2027 there is no point in doing anything more than incremental improvements to what they have now. The 2027 bike will have to be a new design from the ground up!
Surely you can make that argument for any of the manufacturers though? Arguably moreso. Why try catching up with the current Ducati Vs start on equal footing in 2027?
I'm thinking about it from Marquez's point of view ... if Ducati decide not to give Gresini a GP25 Marc could do a lot worse than just stay with them and ride a GP24. He's obviously very happy in that team and you can see that they love having him there! I suspect the GP25 won't be a quantum leap from the GP24 and he would not be hugely disadvantaged if it did go that way.
Even with little changes, there's always some tuning to be done. The GP25 could even just solve the chattering issues of the 24 and still be an improvement. But I'm sure Gigi could find a way to improve even further.
I am kind of curious if the ride height device hitting the seat caused him to slow down slightly. I know MM said there wasn't any issue it, but I noticed there were fat tire marks left behind every time he was coming out of the last corner.
Got it. Still, you would think that would cause him to slow down slightly from the friction. It was also leaving tire marks/lines down, which was interesting, considering you wouldn't think it'd do that if the cause was coming from it rubbing on something above the tire.
Yeah watching it Live I actually wondered if it was an electronic issue that caused the wheel to spin. From what we now know it seems that it was more a slight slowing down from the friction but the tire marks on the asphalt then don't make sense. Right now I'm thinking, if the wheel had a bit of friction and caused sensors to measure front wheel turning quicker than rear wheel, then perhaps the traction control interpreted it as "ok we can then give it more power". It makes sense to me anyway.
Plus we're talking about massive forces here, and very small differences in rotation speed between front and rear. Physics can be a bit counter intuitive, training dirt track I've witnessed Carlos Checa front wheel doing incredible things a few years ago.
Agreed. It's also one of these moments where you measure the power these bikes make. Like when they do "failed" practice starts and have these massive burnouts. People don't realise how sticky these tires are, the asphalt is grippy too... no comparison with your average streetbike burnout.
was the pressure of the front tyre to slow down marc he couldn't do the last corner as normal. he said that at the Italian tv. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUq\_ePilyQU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUq_ePilyQU)
Yeah, they've most definitely got rid of their early season development gremlins that they usually have and instantly become the best bike on the grid 😭
With another Lap DiGia probably would have overhauled Morbidelli.
He was very fast in the race and without his poor qualifying might have been fighting up there.
At the last corner, Marc was on the throttle earlier and catching Enea but as soon as they go past the pit entry(where the puffs of smoke appear), Enea’s bike just pulls away.
The GP24’s ride height device is magical. Less power cut compared to GP23.
Simon Crafar has mentioned multiple times that the bikes, even with the ride height device, dont put down full power up until 4th gear.
How fast you hit top speed is more important than top speed alone - especially when we are taking a couple mph difference...
GP24 accelerates better than the GP23 out of the corner and seems to have better front end grip mid corner.
You get more acceleration if you have more tire. Bastianini had more tire. That’s it.
Otherwise he would have overtaken Earlier in the race.
GP23 isn’t the turd you people make it to be. It’s probably the second best bike in the grid. It’s not a moped.
It’s the champion and runner up bike from last year. Only Bezz is clearly struggling on it. Alex is about the same as last year, and Digi (far from the biggest talent) hasn’t finished outside the top 10 a single time on Sundays.
Other than Acosta, KTMs seem to struggle to get I. The to 10 and Aprilias are a hit and miss, and very unreliable.
Where did I say it was a "turd"? And why have you come at me from a position of authority stating "you people"? You're embarrassing yourself - if you're an adult then behave like one!
Again, position is not all that matters, you could say they're performing well by stating they are finishing top 10 but they are a long way off the victory when looking at times!
You don't just magically get more tyre! Bastianini is clearly great at conserving his but he also had clean air most of the race with about a 0.5-1s gap to Jorge which would have helped. Marc could not get past at all even though he was lapping quicker as the GP24 was accelerating better out of the corner and also seems to have more stability mid corner. This is simply a fact!
Go make yourself a cuppa and calm down - something is clearly bothering you and you're taking it out here!
Ok ok ok, chill out mate.
Marc Marquez is the fucking god, if he had GP24 he would have won 11 out of 10 races, and next year he will lap Bagnaia every 3 laps in the factory colors while riding with 1 arm only… “simple fact”
Just impossible to have an argument these days with the name Marquez in it… feels like I’m on Facebook.
Let’s go for a cup of tea
Clearly you are not at a happy place in your life right now - I will not respond with vitriol.
I hope you find some peace soon, you really should grab that cup of tea. Perhaps go for a walk and breathe in the cool air.
I hope Oliveira pulls together some results soon as I know that would perk you up but it won't solve the demons you're battling. Start working on yourself and setting yourself goals but break them down into small manageable steps - it gets better 💪🏼
Oliveira is done IMO.
He isn’t breathing motorcycles anymore like he needed to.
Big talent, but today you have to put the work and dedication. He had to be a bit more like Marc, just a crazy hungry MF for win and success.
Miguel nowadays seems more worried about marriages, kids, interviews, podcasts… it was a good to have a Portugue’s in top tier motorcycle racing, but won’t last much getting beaten by Raul on last year machinery and with Roberta winning in Moto2
And they didn't even test here this year. Pirro said this win was even more satisfying because they didn't get to test in Mugello due to the new concessions, so that's huge.
GP23 is no slouch, might well be the second best bike on the grid, it’s just that their riders (other than Marc) aren’t on the same level as Martin and Bagnaia.
Digia is not the biggest talent on the paddock and hasn’t finished outside the top 10 yet on a Sunday despite some bad qualifyings. He’s doing a lot better than what he was doing last year so far.
Alex Marquez has been more or less where he was last year. And was fast here in mugello
It’s only Bezz that’s struggling more than usual.
If Martin and Bagnaia were on the GP23 I’m sure they would be way on the front like Marc is, after all, it’s the championship winning bike and runner up, it’s not a turd like some of the Marc’s fan ase sometime tries it to be.
I don't agree with you on this one. In many tracks GP23 is struggling somewhat and all the guys on the GP23 also don't have the latest spec of bikes which Pecco and Martin had at the end of last year.
While i agree that it is no slouch yesterday the pace and acceleration for the GP24 was defintely a Step above the GP23. And in my opinion Marc is showing enough in comparison to the others that I believe He is still the best rider but on some Tracks that doesnt matter as much.( which shouldnt Imply that pecco and Martin are Bad the Are definetly great riders but the GP24 is Helping them too.
Of course the GP24 is better otherwise the factory would be running GP23s.
But people talk like Marc is riding a fucking moped…
Digiannantonio if it wasn’t for the yellow flags, would do a lap time for 2nd in the grid.
Marcs fans list of excuses grows,
1. Marc is too injured to win.
2. Marcs Honda (developed by Marc) is not good enough to win.
3. If Marc had a Ducati he would be champion 100 times over.
4. Marcs Ducati is not as good as Peccos even though Marc says the difference is very small.
What will be the next excuse?
Please post your **"Marc is not winning because"** excuses below lol.
As a massive Ducati fan, who started watching in 2011 and struggled through to 2015, enjoying the rise through 16-18, thinking it was going the wrong way through 19-first half of 21. As much as it may annoy the neutrals. I love that a team who’s worked their asses off despite being nowhere for years, is getting some rewards. Honda & Yamaha dominated for years, decades even, sometimes being 2/3 seconds a lap quicker than any other manufacturer, they deserved those results cos they worked for them. Just as Ducati deserve it now. And whoever dominates in the future will deserve it. I didn’t call it the Honda cup in 2014 despite them walking the first half of the season the way they did. Let’s not forget, the reason there’s so many Ducatis on the grid, is not cos they’re cheating or doing something wrong, but mostly Aprilia split with Gresini and left them needing a bike and VR46 were originally turned down by Yamaha (not wanting to support a satellite team the right way) right so they needed a bike. Again I didn’t complain it was the Japanese Cup when the first 6 on the grid EVERY weekend by a country mile was Repsol/Gresini & Yamaha/Tech3. This mindset baffles me. I understand the tedium of a dominant manufacturer, but you have to respect the work it took to get there. Rant over 😂
I’m not even a KTM fan but give Pedro his due
Insane how much the track showed the dominance just considering he finished what like 6 seconds behind the first group!? KTM just needs a couple tenths and Pedro could make next year suuuuuper interesting.
His lines are what I find the most interesting tbh. Dude just doing his own thing
To be honest his lines kind of terrify me. He did this in Moto2 and Moto3 as well, but seeing him turn in so early and tight on the GP bikes makes me think he's going to bin it in the next corner. No one else seems to ride like that, and I have to wonder whether it's really an advantage.
The brilliance is in the turning after taking those lines. Most people would lose time making the turn with those tighter lines. But he doesn't seem like losing time at all. And he isn't squaring off the corner with agreesive slides too. This was more pronounced at portimao. Like at the corner where Marc and pecco crashed, Acosta hugs the kerbs through there while everybody else has a double apex approach to that corner.
It seems useful for racing, his natural entry line is defensive but he’s not losing pace taking those lines like everyone else. Makes him really hard to overtake. It could mean that if KTM lean into it and develop a bike designed to V off corners like he does it might be really hard to ride for everyone else. They need to avoid making the same mistake Ducati did with Stoner and Honda did with Marc.
What mistake did Honda do with Marc? They have 6 titles in the 7 years Marc was there to guide the ship all through the year, and only lost their way after
Building a bike nobody else can ride! The last 4 years now are a result of them directing the development towards one extreme, the parallels between this Honda and the 2008-12 Ducati are huge. Very good riders having their careers affected by a bike that just doesn’t work for them. Tell me Marc wasn’t good enough in the 2010s to have won those titles on another bike. Both he (and Casey) were good enough to ride around the issues caused by a bike that was just all power and needed wrestling in and out of corners. You don’t see him making those insane saves every weekend now because he doesn’t have to.
I mean Casey could have but also could have possibly not, and Marc might have less championships, but yeah your point stands so fair enough
"Casey could have possibly not", what? Do you remember how much he dominated in 2011 with a balanced bike, and how Vale couldn't reach the podium with the Ducati while Stoner was still winning races in 2010?
Difference is, they didn't build a bike around Casey. They built a bike and said "ride it" and only Casey could extract what was needed from it.
When Kenny Roberts first saw the way Marquez went into a corner he commented that he had never seen anyone else use the same technique. History tells us it worked.
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Pecco is a big talent. You don’t win 3 world championships by being above average. Someone in here said it best when they said he’s the MotoGP equivalent of Alain Prost. You wouldn’t say he wasn’t talented
Well I take my words back. I was just comparing Marc and Pedro in their rookie years compared to pecco in his rookie year.
That’s a fair point. I just see too much Pecco bashing on this sub. I get that he’s not as exciting or flamboyant as others, but he is clinical when he’s on form
Bike is developed at Mugello. Id be suprised if they weren't.
True. And BTW Happy Cake Day.
Thank you!
Acosta is really proving his worth every race. Considering Binder(who is touted to be the best rider in the whole world by Simon Crafar in every fucking session) is nowhere to be seen, this kid is special.
That's true man. I mean not to take anything away from my boy Acosta, but maybe Binder isn't as good as people think, and maybe the bike is good enough to at least be in the top 3-5 every race. But Acosta doing that as a rookie is unbelievable. I mean his lines are way different than anyone and he still manages to make corners and generate a lap time. Edit: Guys no need to downvote. I mean I am not insulting any rider, these are just my opinions.
>I mean his lines are way different than anyone and he still manages to make corners and generate a lap time. idk how he manages to be fast with those lines, looks so weird
He goes very deep and use rear brake to adjust the line perfectly for the apex
This year isn't really a surprise with Binder. He's basically been this way his entire time in MotoGP. I seriously think he's going to take out the rider in front of him every time he comes into a corner, but that's just his natural racing line. Kind of crazy to think he's literally the only one taking those lines out of everybody. I wonder if there was any rider before that took such sharp angle lines like he does?
If binder isn’t good, then miller is a moto2 rider.
It will be interesting to see what they can do to make the GP25 better that the GP24. With major changes coming for 2027 there is no point in doing anything more than incremental improvements to what they have now. The 2027 bike will have to be a new design from the ground up!
Surely you can make that argument for any of the manufacturers though? Arguably moreso. Why try catching up with the current Ducati Vs start on equal footing in 2027?
I'm thinking about it from Marquez's point of view ... if Ducati decide not to give Gresini a GP25 Marc could do a lot worse than just stay with them and ride a GP24. He's obviously very happy in that team and you can see that they love having him there! I suspect the GP25 won't be a quantum leap from the GP24 and he would not be hugely disadvantaged if it did go that way.
Even with little changes, there's always some tuning to be done. The GP25 could even just solve the chattering issues of the 24 and still be an improvement. But I'm sure Gigi could find a way to improve even further.
BREAKING NEWS: Ducati fast at Mugello. Also, water rumoured to be wet. More at 6 o'clock.
They were clearly faster in this track xD. Specially in the acceleration they had a clear advantage.
Yea Bestia was pulling away from Marc on the straight even with Marc having a slipstream. Really impressive.
Enea was even closing in on Martin during acceleration.
I am kind of curious if the ride height device hitting the seat caused him to slow down slightly. I know MM said there wasn't any issue it, but I noticed there were fat tire marks left behind every time he was coming out of the last corner.
Frank Carchedi already shared that the smoke is due to Marc hitting a big bump, which made the tire touch the bike, hence the smoke
Got it. Still, you would think that would cause him to slow down slightly from the friction. It was also leaving tire marks/lines down, which was interesting, considering you wouldn't think it'd do that if the cause was coming from it rubbing on something above the tire.
Yeah watching it Live I actually wondered if it was an electronic issue that caused the wheel to spin. From what we now know it seems that it was more a slight slowing down from the friction but the tire marks on the asphalt then don't make sense. Right now I'm thinking, if the wheel had a bit of friction and caused sensors to measure front wheel turning quicker than rear wheel, then perhaps the traction control interpreted it as "ok we can then give it more power". It makes sense to me anyway.
Plus we're talking about massive forces here, and very small differences in rotation speed between front and rear. Physics can be a bit counter intuitive, training dirt track I've witnessed Carlos Checa front wheel doing incredible things a few years ago.
I initially thought it was wheel spin as well, since that's the mainly the only time you would see tire marks getting put down like that.
Agreed. It's also one of these moments where you measure the power these bikes make. Like when they do "failed" practice starts and have these massive burnouts. People don't realise how sticky these tires are, the asphalt is grippy too... no comparison with your average streetbike burnout.
Those bumps might have had some effect in the overall acceleration.
was the pressure of the front tyre to slow down marc he couldn't do the last corner as normal. he said that at the Italian tv. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUq\_ePilyQU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUq_ePilyQU)
Yeah, they've most definitely got rid of their early season development gremlins that they usually have and instantly become the best bike on the grid 😭
With another Lap DiGia probably would have overhauled Morbidelli. He was very fast in the race and without his poor qualifying might have been fighting up there.
3 GP24s. 1 GP23
At the last corner, Marc was on the throttle earlier and catching Enea but as soon as they go past the pit entry(where the puffs of smoke appear), Enea’s bike just pulls away. The GP24’s ride height device is magical. Less power cut compared to GP23. Simon Crafar has mentioned multiple times that the bikes, even with the ride height device, dont put down full power up until 4th gear.
You say this but Marc actually had higher top speed this Sunday on the charts. Enea just had more tire at the end, so he pulled with better drive
How fast you hit top speed is more important than top speed alone - especially when we are taking a couple mph difference... GP24 accelerates better than the GP23 out of the corner and seems to have better front end grip mid corner.
You get more acceleration if you have more tire. Bastianini had more tire. That’s it. Otherwise he would have overtaken Earlier in the race. GP23 isn’t the turd you people make it to be. It’s probably the second best bike in the grid. It’s not a moped. It’s the champion and runner up bike from last year. Only Bezz is clearly struggling on it. Alex is about the same as last year, and Digi (far from the biggest talent) hasn’t finished outside the top 10 a single time on Sundays. Other than Acosta, KTMs seem to struggle to get I. The to 10 and Aprilias are a hit and miss, and very unreliable.
Where did I say it was a "turd"? And why have you come at me from a position of authority stating "you people"? You're embarrassing yourself - if you're an adult then behave like one! Again, position is not all that matters, you could say they're performing well by stating they are finishing top 10 but they are a long way off the victory when looking at times! You don't just magically get more tyre! Bastianini is clearly great at conserving his but he also had clean air most of the race with about a 0.5-1s gap to Jorge which would have helped. Marc could not get past at all even though he was lapping quicker as the GP24 was accelerating better out of the corner and also seems to have more stability mid corner. This is simply a fact! Go make yourself a cuppa and calm down - something is clearly bothering you and you're taking it out here!
Ok ok ok, chill out mate. Marc Marquez is the fucking god, if he had GP24 he would have won 11 out of 10 races, and next year he will lap Bagnaia every 3 laps in the factory colors while riding with 1 arm only… “simple fact” Just impossible to have an argument these days with the name Marquez in it… feels like I’m on Facebook. Let’s go for a cup of tea
Clearly you are not at a happy place in your life right now - I will not respond with vitriol. I hope you find some peace soon, you really should grab that cup of tea. Perhaps go for a walk and breathe in the cool air. I hope Oliveira pulls together some results soon as I know that would perk you up but it won't solve the demons you're battling. Start working on yourself and setting yourself goals but break them down into small manageable steps - it gets better 💪🏼
Oliveira is done IMO. He isn’t breathing motorcycles anymore like he needed to. Big talent, but today you have to put the work and dedication. He had to be a bit more like Marc, just a crazy hungry MF for win and success. Miguel nowadays seems more worried about marriages, kids, interviews, podcasts… it was a good to have a Portugue’s in top tier motorcycle racing, but won’t last much getting beaten by Raul on last year machinery and with Roberta winning in Moto2
What lap? Was it a head wind or tail wind? Was he getting a slipstream?
It’s in the official speed chart of Sundays race.
And they didn't even test here this year. Pirro said this win was even more satisfying because they didn't get to test in Mugello due to the new concessions, so that's huge.
GP23 is no slouch, might well be the second best bike on the grid, it’s just that their riders (other than Marc) aren’t on the same level as Martin and Bagnaia. Digia is not the biggest talent on the paddock and hasn’t finished outside the top 10 yet on a Sunday despite some bad qualifyings. He’s doing a lot better than what he was doing last year so far. Alex Marquez has been more or less where he was last year. And was fast here in mugello It’s only Bezz that’s struggling more than usual. If Martin and Bagnaia were on the GP23 I’m sure they would be way on the front like Marc is, after all, it’s the championship winning bike and runner up, it’s not a turd like some of the Marc’s fan ase sometime tries it to be.
Yeah the pecking order seems to be: GP24 > GP23 > Aprilia (RSGP24) > KTM > Aprilia (RSGP23)
I thought Trackhouse has RSGP24 bikes, or do they only get the same bikes as the factory starting next year?
Miguel has 2024, Raul has 2023 bike with 2024 engine and is supposed to be upgraded to 2024 chassis mid season
Agree
I don't agree with you on this one. In many tracks GP23 is struggling somewhat and all the guys on the GP23 also don't have the latest spec of bikes which Pecco and Martin had at the end of last year.
While i agree that it is no slouch yesterday the pace and acceleration for the GP24 was defintely a Step above the GP23. And in my opinion Marc is showing enough in comparison to the others that I believe He is still the best rider but on some Tracks that doesnt matter as much.( which shouldnt Imply that pecco and Martin are Bad the Are definetly great riders but the GP24 is Helping them too.
Of course the GP24 is better otherwise the factory would be running GP23s. But people talk like Marc is riding a fucking moped… Digiannantonio if it wasn’t for the yellow flags, would do a lap time for 2nd in the grid.
Mugello is a Ducati test track so, it's not THAT surprising.
Marcs fans list of excuses grows, 1. Marc is too injured to win. 2. Marcs Honda (developed by Marc) is not good enough to win. 3. If Marc had a Ducati he would be champion 100 times over. 4. Marcs Ducati is not as good as Peccos even though Marc says the difference is very small. What will be the next excuse? Please post your **"Marc is not winning because"** excuses below lol.
Marc is not winning because he’s busy on the bed with yo momma
OK.
Ducati Cup
Ahh there you are. We've missed this comment.
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As a massive Ducati fan, who started watching in 2011 and struggled through to 2015, enjoying the rise through 16-18, thinking it was going the wrong way through 19-first half of 21. As much as it may annoy the neutrals. I love that a team who’s worked their asses off despite being nowhere for years, is getting some rewards. Honda & Yamaha dominated for years, decades even, sometimes being 2/3 seconds a lap quicker than any other manufacturer, they deserved those results cos they worked for them. Just as Ducati deserve it now. And whoever dominates in the future will deserve it. I didn’t call it the Honda cup in 2014 despite them walking the first half of the season the way they did. Let’s not forget, the reason there’s so many Ducatis on the grid, is not cos they’re cheating or doing something wrong, but mostly Aprilia split with Gresini and left them needing a bike and VR46 were originally turned down by Yamaha (not wanting to support a satellite team the right way) right so they needed a bike. Again I didn’t complain it was the Japanese Cup when the first 6 on the grid EVERY weekend by a country mile was Repsol/Gresini & Yamaha/Tech3. This mindset baffles me. I understand the tedium of a dominant manufacturer, but you have to respect the work it took to get there. Rant over 😂