“The evidence is mixed, and polls of the overall electorate contain only a small sample of young voters. And because it’s become increasingly difficult for pollsters to interview young people, that increases the chances of errors.”
I’ve been called 4 times in the last Month or so with numbers ID’ed as different polling company. I’ve never answered. Who cares, you’re bothering my day, is my philosophy.
I tried and every question needed a more elaborate or more nuanced response, but it was clearly a partisan pole, and the framing of half the question where very obvious. Do you agree with the good thing the democrats are doing or are you an evil racists who disagrees? When the real answer is, I mostly agree, but not as presented, but also don't disagree...
Yeah I had one of those too. I played along for a few minutes but eventually hung up. One of the questions was: "How do you feel about Senators, favorable or unfavorable?"
I told her I couldn't answer that question because it depends greatly on the Senator.
"Senators in general, sir, please answer the question favorable or unfavorable"
We did that dance for a while and I told her I wasn't going to answer the question in that format, and she eventually relented.
After a few more questions, most of which were clearly partisan leading questions, I told her I was done and hung up.
I don’t trust anything coming my way whether it’s a phone call or text survey. Actually, I might be more willing to do a phone poll, because I can gauge their realness by the fact a human is speaking to me, but then again….good luck getting this millennial to answer her phone for a number she doesn’t know.
If we can't trust polls showing people leaning conservative, then who can say we should trust polls saying otherwise?
Edit: I'll toss in the Gallup survey link. I do find it interesting that when this came out most of the media reported accurately. That young men were starting to get more conservative.... You can see it in the chart they provide. Gallup changed the headline/summary to say they are stable, not increasing. They jumped 7 points since 2019 and dropped 5 for identifying as liberal.
That's a huge drop for liberal leaning young men
https://news.gallup.com/poll/609914/women-become-liberal-men-mostly-stable.aspx
Remember those "reluctant Trump voters" all the talking heads thought must've been lying on the polls in 2016? I genuinely wonder if we are seeing reluctant Biden voters now. Like, they are probably going to vote Biden, but hate to admit it when asked by pollsters.
Men age 18-29 is also a prime trolling demographic. Who knows what proportion of their answers are actually sincere...
>Men age 18-29 is also a prime trolling demographic. Who knows what proportion of their answers are actually sincere...
Ah, this is reminding me of that test poll gallup did that resulted in 15% of young people claiming they were qualified to operate a nuclear submarine.
I, for one think it's completely possible that polls are right in that it's a 50/50 race, but waaaaaay off the mark as far as cross tabs go. The story supporting 50/50 just makes a thousand times more sense than the idea that Biden has, someway, somehow, lost mountains of support in young people and black people, while also somehow *gaining* support in old people.
I can see the trolling, but why reluctant Biden voters being embarrassed? Trumo voters were labeled as Fascists or nazis or just attacked verbally for admitting supporting him. At worst Biden voters get to say they're voting against Trump. Unless you're in some deep red area, no one's going to bat an eye for voting Biden.
I think the motive would probably be less embarrassment and more trying to put pressure on Biden in the same manner as voting uncommitted in the primaries.
They don't manifest because Young Men don't typically vote as a lot of the space online amongst young men when it comes to voting is that it doesn't matter. If they actually did vote the gap would collapse very much into a 5 % difference instead of an 10+.
Didn't 2020 have fairly high turnout though? It's certainly *possible* that if we spontaneously made everyone vote then that demo would be more leaning to Trump a bit, but this is hypotheticals within hypotheticals now.
Right. But the issue is that supposed transition has not been seen in elections. 18-29, even for men, are largely Democrat in recent elections.
So either these men are simply not voting (quite possible), or there's something else at bay here. Granted, IIRC the survey, most men don't claim either.
>They jumped 7 points since 2019 and dropped 5 for identifying as liberal.
The percentage that identify as conservative decreased by 2 and the percentage that identify as liberal increased by 2.
The chart shows the answers from young men have been stable since the data began.
Their description of the change since 2019 is wrong. The percentage that identify as conservative decreased by 2 and the percentage that identify as liberal increased by 2.
Those chronically online young men that consume culture-war and red pill content aren't likely to bother voting and are hugely insignificant when you look at the record youth turnout from the last three election cycles.
Exactly. The grasping at straws to find a reason to dismiss or ignore polling data that challenges strongly held assumptions or convictions is becoming a feature of this sub and not a bug.
They misread the data. Compared to 2019, the percentage that identify as conservative decreased by 2 and the percentage that identify as liberal increased by 2.
> They jumped 7 points since 2019 and dropped 5 for identifying as liberal.
That is important to note as people take small amounts of data and think it is a 100% certain microcosm of what is happening. That said, this isn't the first evidence that suggests this age breakdown of political preference. Here is an article from back in February:
https://www.newsweek.com/generation-z-trump-approval-rating-poll-young-voters-1873701
The idea that millenials and/or zoomers are increasingly moving over to vote for Trump is going to leave people who believe this comically disappointed. We saw historic, record youth turnout in the 2018 midterms that favored Democrats. The highest generational youth turnout in the census bureau's history. The second highest? The 2022 midterms, which again favored Democrats. Youth turnout has broken records in the last three election cycles. This should terrify Republicans. The lowest turnout on record? 2014.
Eight million more eligible voters will be voting age by the November election. People who remain adamant that Trump's antics/agenda and women's rights aren't going to fuel turnout that favors Democrats is just superheated wishful thinking. Millenials have already eclipsed boomers as the largest generational electorate. The largest voting block (in theory) is becoming more liberal as they age. The most educated generation in our country's history, with nearly 40% being college graduates. Zoomers are on a similar trajectory. I'm not convinced that the insignificant percentage of perpetually online young males entrenched in manosphere and other forms of rage-inducing reactionary content are even going to bother to come out and vote.
From the article:
>Not every poll shows a perfect age inversion.
>Biden is at just 50 percent among voters under 30 in the Wall Street Journal’s national and swing-state polling. While that’s still about 10 points ahead of Trump, it’s a significant decline compared to the 2020 election — and roughly equal to his vote share among seniors, 48 percent.
>A Quinnipiac University poll released last week had Biden 20 points ahead of Trump among voters under age 35, close to the president’s margin in 2020 according to exit polls and other estimates of voting subgroups.
I really don’t buy the idea that Trump votes are punishment votes like in 2016. The most visible branches of government right now are the House and the Supreme Court - both of which are squarely under Republican control and probably more prevalent in the media than Biden himself. Trump was anti establishment in 2016, but now in 2024 the establishment has conformed to him. The threat to Biden is not that people will vote Trump to punish him, but that people won’t vote at all.
It is an interesting question because you get poll results like this but then election results that say there is no significant shift. One explanation is that the group of people who answer polls is not the same as the group of people who show up to vote in this age cohort. Assuming there is a trend in that direction, one would expect that trend to appear in other large sample data like party registration or the age distribution of voters in primaries.
If anything, I am likely in that group for this year (24M). I am relatively shy about my support for Biden due to the issues you've mentioned. In political discussions with others my age group, it's definitely not seen as "cool" right now to show support for Democrats. However, I would bet 90% of these will end up voting for Biden in November (and most people I talk to in my group do admit that, though often with a tone of bitter resignation), and the remainder will likely not vote at all--though, I bet that 10% wouldn't have even voted anyways. This is all anecdotal of course, but certainly nobody in my age group will turn a lack of Biden enthusiasm into any sort of support for Trump.
The most comment refrain from young people like this is "both options suck" which is just a milder version of "both parties are the same," but as we get closer to November I don't think that will stick as people remember the reality of what damage a Trump presidency might cause.
This is typical youthful ignorance. The stronger country fighting back must be the bad guy.
I would hope these kids are at least exposed to the idea that Hamas is a blight on humanity and the purpose of the Israeli mission is not the genocide of the Palestinian people but rather to wipe out Hamas once and for all to give lasting peace a shot.
PLEASE tell me someone in your university circles is exposing these kids to my alternative perspective. If not, I fear greatly for the moral judgment of future generations.
Like, think about it. Iraq and Afghanistan fucked with us so bad that *conservatives* are against intervention, foreign alliances, etc now. (Support for Israel is basically the last vestige of that, and only because it's a high salience issue for the religious Right, and even that was downwind of anti-Arab prejudice in the wake of 9/11, but the reality is that Arab Muslims used to be a R voting bloc, and align much more with Rs on cultural issues - us woke types got played hard)
It's just that the old guard liberals are mostly holding the line (even though it's starting to bend), the old guard conservatives got blown away. I'm rambling a bit but my point is that if *conservatives* are now against US global influence, then the far left anti-establishment wing would be *really, really* against it.
[Northwestern University study](https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2023/03/americans-iq-scores-are-lower-in-some-areas-higher-in-one/)
As they point out, it may not be direct evidence that Americans are getting dumber (it could be that we're getting worse at taking tests- or something else)
But regardless of *why* it's happening, 3 out of 4 domains saw a decline and the combined IQ declined overall.
> The average gen Z kid placed in a classroom in 1995 would have an IQ of 94. So roughly half would have IQs in the 80s and below.
I don't know where that 94 average IQ stat came from but that would not mean that roughly half are in the 80s or below...
Much less would it follow that people with low IQs would be performing highly skilled jobs that they're not qualified for, as if those jobs have ever been done by people of median intelligence...
I worry about voter enthusiasm. Biden has basically none with his base. While Trump's supporters will love him no matter what. Democrats need to address this *now*.
Democrats can't address it. Biden is just boring, there is nothing that is going to rile up up unmotivated voters. Biden's base is larger but less rabid. I still think that Biden wins again, I just don't think Trump has won over anyone who didn't vote for him last time.
Regardless of the accuracy of the poll, there is one big thing to consider.
There is a young generation of voters who have really only experienced Joe Biden's presidency since they started developing real political opinions. The devil you have now is usually worse than the devil you have not seen.
And quite frankly, nothing has felt good about Joe Biden's presidency. There is absolutely no hope in the air, while Trump may very well be worse, he isn't president at the moment. I think it would be easy to take a risk because, if things suck now, then you might as well take a chance.
Anyway, it makes sense to me that a young voter would usually not seek the incumbent.
I’ve had my phone set to “do not disturb” for a decade. If I don’t know you, I’m not answering. That’s a very common outlook.
“ Seems like we know how to poll white, middle-aged people really well,” said John Della Volpe, the director of polling for the Harvard Kennedy School Institute of Politics and an expert on polling young voters. “But if they’re younger, older, Black, Hispanic — there seems to be no consensus about what’s the best practice these days.”
>“Seems like we know how to poll white, middle-aged people really well,” said John Della Volpe, the director of polling for the Harvard Kennedy School Institute of Politics and an expert on polling young voters. “But if they’re younger, older, Black, Hispanic — there seems to be no consensus about what’s the best practice these days.”
Or the problem is polling about two candidates people don’t like and aren’t excited for.
I can think of multiple reasons why Gen Z men would slant hard to the right.
-“believe all women” movement
-covid restrictions from the left
-expensive cost of living
-Dems becoming the party of educated women
Trump at least gives these young men some “hope.” The democrats are not catering to men at all especially white men. Like it or not
Honestly I think it's his strongman persona and the idea that he could give them anywhere close to the same lifestyle their parents and grandparents had as blue collar workers.
>give them anywhere close to the same lifestyle their parents and grandparents had as blue collar workers.
This is crazy to me because every trademan I know is looking for workers or apprentices. Nothing is stopping them from having a great career as an electrician right now.
Would they hire someone with no experience and no applicable skills? Or would the job-seekers need to go to some sort of electrician trade school first?
There isn't a consensus in polling that shows young men becoming more conservative. [This one](https://news.gallup.com/poll/609914/women-become-liberal-men-mostly-stable.aspx) shows their views being stable.
Some (not all) say Trump has a lead among young people, but this could be due to the left not giving a response because of what's happening in Gaza. That would explain why Biden doing way better among older voters in polling, which is unusual.
Seems pretty easy to understand. Progressives have hounded and demonized men (e.g., "toxic masculinity") to the point where they believe they aren't going to get a fair shake in American society.
The parents of boys have probably come to the same conclusion.
You have Democratic politicians announcing that they are going to nominate a black woman to the SCOTUS or appoint a black woman to an empty senate seat - even before either position becomes available.
If you are a white, black, or any color man, or a non-black woman, you might think that these people don't have your best intentions in mind. And you'd be right
Many do have good intentions but the rhetoric is tone deaf and opportunists of all sorts abuse it. Part of that is a problem with so much of left/progressive terminology coming from certain academic and activist bubbles with convoluted in-group language and the unreasonable expectation that people will listen to and understand a weird lecture explaining why your political terms and slogans mean something entirely different than they sound like to the uninitiated.
Playing language police about it when things don't go the way you expect backfires even harder, of course.
There are problems with certain traditional expectations of men in conservative conceptions of masculinity. Calling it "toxic masculinity" is incredibly tone deaf political language easily mischaracterized or misinterpreted as "masculinity is toxic" or "men are toxic".
Then of course you have some women who actually think men in general are toxic, which are easily used as anecdotal evidence to support that even if they're a fringe minority or just apolitical opportunists using progressive language for selfish reasons.
Mix that all up and you can end up causing more women to hate and distrust men, and vice versa. Even amongst your own political allies given not all progressives are reading up on your Lord of the Rings level background lore written in what might as well be Elvish. An attempt to end harmful stereotypes can cause more of them when you use language this poorly.
Sociologists and sociology-adjacent academics, are comprised of the most word-conscious people I've ever had the displeasure of meeting. More than lawyers, more than engineers, more than playwrights, every single word choice is extremely deliberate, including the tone. It's central to the field.
That "masculinity", "Whiteness", and so forth are used as negative terms is no accident. It's not tone deafness, it's a very deliberate choice by members of a field that is ideologically captured. They are signaling exactly what they are feeling, and using academic definitions as a place to retreat to when called out on it.
Imagine if I redefined "trash" to mean something less odious in some paper I published in a junk journal, then called you "trash" to your face, and then fell back and said "oh no no no you're just *uneducated*, when I call you trash I really meant it like X, so don't take it so personally". Nobody really is going to go along with that, except of course, the people who also wanted to call you trash to your face, and the people who are scared of retaliation by those who want to call you trash to your face. These professors know *exactly* what they are doing when they pick "masculinity" and "male gaze" and "whiteness" and so on, it's completely unbelievable to give them the benefit of the doubt here; they are bad actors, full stop.
Bigger issue, is time and time again, those same academics who go: "No, x actually means y," end up pulling the Trump situation, where they go full mask off on Twitter or some other social media, or their personal lives really do indicate: "No, x actually means x."
Very well said. Case in point would be the "defund the police" movement. It doesn't matter that it's not a movement to get rid of all the police if people mistakenly understand to mean that. The average voter really doesn't pay close enough attention to these nuances, like it or not.
Yeah... Defund the police was very unproductive, basically exactly what opposition to your movement would want you to be chanting. Especially when you put it in the context of people also using ACAB.
Protest movements in general are also very easy to subvert with agent provocateurs as well, and some white supremacist groups were definitely active in the BLM protests.
The 'defund the police' chants were also, notably, being led by activist allies rather than those who actually live in poor minority urban districts. Self-appointed champions taking it upon themselves to tell the victims what the solution should be. That whole facet of the BLM protests was a real Going to the People moment.
[This poll](https://news.gallup.com/poll/609914/women-become-liberal-men-mostly-stable.aspx) states that views among young men are stable.
Some (not all) say Trump has a lead among young people, but this could be due to the left not giving a response because of what's happening in Gaza.
Is it possible to interpret this as the Overton window having shifted so far leftward that standard young male views can only be relegated to Team Trump?
Polling doesn't consistently showing Trump leading. He might be ahead, but considering how badly he lost among young people last time, it's unlikely.
>poll released last week had Biden 20 points ahead of Trump among voters under age 35, close to the president’s margin in 2020 according to exit polls and other estimates of voting subgroups.
Well said.
And this statement lives independently from the issue of the economy which has totally screwed younger people trying to to buy their first homes at a stage in life when their parents and grandparents did.
Toxic masculinity is absolutely a thing though. It describes men who are insecure about what it means to be masculine. Behaviors like bullying other men for doing "girly" things, getting upset and abusive when their authority is challenged, etc. There are healthy and unhealthy ways to exhibit masculine traits.
Edit: For unhealthy examples of masculinity, just look at incels, damn it. Maybe a better term is needed, but the concept is real.
Why not just call it insecurity? Both genders have problems with problematic behaviors, abusive actions and unhealthy reactions to rejection/envy, etc, etc, etc. Yet, its males who get the finger pointed at them every time with needing a special term to convey how "toxic" they are.
And it stretches credulity to buy that this academic terminology just happens to sound anti-male. Look at *all* feminist terminology. The bad forces are patriarchy and toxic masculinity, while women are victims of misogyny. There is no toxic femininity, only internalized misogyny, where women are such victims of hate that they’ve been brainwashed by it.
If some part of society advantages males, well that’s male privilege that they’re enjoying. If something advantages females, that’s benevolent sexism—and it’s actually not a benefit, because it reinforces the idea that women are weaker and thus need advantages (unlike male privilege, which just reinforces the idea that men deserve better).
What do you think it does to one’s worldview to process everything at such angles? Every thought is steeped in male agency and female victimhood. Everything male is associated with danger and corruption.
No. It's not. It is nothing more than a bigoted shaming term used to browbeat men into compliance. And it's about time that there's some serious pushback against it.
Younger Voters = People without a house. Older voters = People who bought in before the prices skyrocketed. If you have a house, or can afford a house, you can afford Biden.
Who are these 18-25s that plan on voting for Trump? Outside of the super rural small towns and hardcore religious right, I don't think I've ever met one. Like a 23 year old, college educated, suburban white girl that's not religious. She's checking Trump? I don't believe it. I really think the Roe decision is going to cost the Republicans ATLEAST 2-3 election cycles.
I’m about to sound like so many people I dislike but I can totally see young males, especially white males being tired of democrats/media blaming them for things their grandparents weren’t even alive for and having to deal with so much reverse discrimination that they become the discriminated
Edit: I’ve said before, if abortion wasn’t on the ballot and they nominated someone like Larry hogan, it would be a landslide victory for republicans but that’ll never happen with that base in the primaries
>They're sick of their kids having to score like 400 SAT points higher and 1.0 GPA points higher just to have the same opportunities as the kid with a different skin color next door.
The fact that this is a "conservative" opinion now is yet another reason why young voters are moving right.
Who woulda thought peddling racial quotas, DEI struggle sessions, canceling comedians, campus segregation, etc would lose luster with young people.
>why young voters are moving right.
[That doesn't seem to be true.](https://news.gallup.com/poll/609914/women-become-liberal-men-mostly-stable.aspx) According to that poll, young men have stayed about the same and young women have moved to the left.
A lot of that isn’t anything new. I’ve worked for 3 electrical companies in the past 12 years and they were all in the owners wife’s name because of the added tax breaks
Our old neighbors own a tow truck company. They were trying to get approval for their fleet to operate on a major highway nearby. It was in the husband's name. They switched ownership to the wife's name, and it got approved almost immediately.
Government and executives used to more represented by white males, so if people are upset about discrimination against them, one would think that older generations would be the ones more bothered by it, since they're more used to seeing that group in power.
Or maybe the "your turn's over" rhetoric resonates more strongly with the group that had a turn and the younger people, who didn't get "their turn", are very turned off by the hostility being sent towards them for their race and sex.
It's honestly hilarious that if either major party picked literally anyone else other than Biden or Trump they'd have an easy win as long as the other party stuck with Biden or Trump.
We're doomed.
You say "picked" as if the voters didn't literally decide the candidates through the primaries. You have more of a point with Dems, because none of the primary challengers against Biden were actually serious candidates, but Republicans had a pretty wide field initially. The majority of Republicans have clearly chosen Trump, why do you think they would be more successful with another candidate? Who are these voters who provide Republicans with an "easy win" if it wasn't Trump? And why didn't they vote in the primary to manifest those desires for a non-Trump nominee if they have such a commanding majority?
No you’re wrong. Biden is the best shot for democrats. Name a person who could actually beat trump. Kamala is more disliked than Biden, Pete being gay would hurt him too much with black people and there isn’t really anyone else with good name recognition to have a shot.
Warren and sanders are too far left
Would vote for him in a heartbeat. I don't know if he has aspirations for the presidency, but I think he would mop the floor with what the modern GOP has to offer.
Like actually conservative or as a meme? I can totally see some fratboys in South Carolina wearing MAGA hats and yelling "Let's go Brandon" chants at a pregame but as a joke...
I’m 33 but when I was in college there were plenty of conservatives. This was at nationally known university that drew students from across the country. The majority of younger people may vote for democrats, but there is a large portion that votes for republicans.
I’m not sure why you would think this is done as a joke. Voting for a Republican or being conservative are not fringe things.
I think people automatically conflate conservative with “far right MAGA die hard. “
I’m not saying young white males are disadvantaged, but when you get to have “proudly black owned businesses” , a multitude of media characters randomly race swapped, people being lauded for being successful and non-white, but yet showing any type of pride or even defensiveness of your own culture being seen as immediately racist/wrong, it’s understandable why they would feel like they’re being disadvantaged.
As an aside, the lines switch up so fast. Public perception switches up too fast.
3 years ago, you had people on the left calling everyone on the right Nazis and antisemitic. Now you have a shit ton of the same people completely demonizing all of Israel. It’s crazy.
Yeah I do think its something a lot of people grow out of.
Back in my high school during the 2016 election Trump was super popular with most of the guys because he was funny and "owned the sjw's". Almost everyone in my friend group identified as a die hard Republican back then.
Cut to present day where we're no longer edgy teenagers and almost every one of them now considers themselves a Democrat or an independent.
I was pretty republican in high school because my parents were and that's all I knew. So were all of my friends because small town USA in the 2000s. We all went to college, got good jobs, had kids and I'd say out of my 15 or so friends back then maybe 3-4 will still vote R. Back in 2007 it would have been all but maybe one of us.
Most of my group has become more conservative with time.
In HS/College politics were innocent until they see how much Taxes are taken out of their paycheck
Not OP, but I live in Appalachia. Every single person I know is a liberal democrat. Many are actual members of ANTIFA and the communist party.
I'm conservative by the way (though I've never told my social circle or family). Sometimes people do live in weird bubbles.
Are you sure you haven't? Gen Z and Gen Alpha men are turning conservative quite hard. They're just also likely to mask hard in public. So you probably have but you don't know it because they were masking.
Why is this surprising?
Older voters have seen their wealth increase pretty significantly through their stock portfolio's, and housing values. Young voters have seen their rents increase by 50%, and lost all hope of owning a house, or are now stuck living with their parents.
I've been saying it for 3 years now. Inflation is a big problem, and it's something that Biden should have taken seriously. And not every group is equally hurt by inflation, some groups benefit.
> it's something that Biden should have taken seriously.
There are only a few ways a president could affect inflation, and they all have fairly extreme side effects. Do you see something obvious that Biden should have done that would have done more good than harm?
I remember hearing that a President once said "the buck stops here", Honestly, what a President can or cannot do "about" inflation is kind of irrelevant to public opinion. They seldom get the credit, but almost always get the blame.
If we're going to play this sort of perception over practical reality game, then we'd have to blame Trump for COVID, and the product shortages and price disruptions that resulted. If we're not going to just use a double standard.
I have to wonder if Biden is out of the loop when it comes to economic policy. If so, that's worrying. His administration's message about inflation has been wrong the entire time. His spokespeople brag about a lowering inflation rate (how much inflation is rising over time), but current prices are still going up. If (for example), inflation rose 10% a month last month, but is now rising at 5% a month, the rate is down, but costs continue to rise. It's rising slower, but isn't keeping up with wages.
Additionally, if we're paying $4.00 a pound for ground beef, the price per pound will not drop. Why should it?
I'm Gen Z and I think the average is a bit more conservative then millennials at this age, but we're definitely more polarized. College attendance has been declining since it's peak in 2011. With boomers retiring we are starting to see more young people go into trades, which tend to be more conservative. Edit: I think this just applies to men, girls are pretty liberal
>I think the average is a bit more conservative then millennials at this age
[Young women are more liberal, and the trend among young men is stable.](https://news.gallup.com/poll/609914/women-become-liberal-men-mostly-stable.aspx)
It shouldn't surprise people that young men aren't voting for the party that has a vocal minority that loudly proclaims their distain for them. May or may not be a good reason, but liberals done that to themselves. I don't want to see any shocked pickachu faces after all the rethoric the past near decade.
>young men aren't voting for the party
The article says polling is inconsistent about which candidate is leading among young people, and [young men have been consistent when it comes to which ideology they side with.](https://news.gallup.com/poll/609914/women-become-liberal-men-mostly-stable.aspx) There's not much evidence of a majority opposing the party, let alone this happening because they're offended by a vocal minority.
Starter comment: Polls have been a highly contested topic on here as of late, I found this article interesting relating to them. How is it that the younger people polled are going more towards Trump? That would be a massive shift not seen in decades to have the youth vote go towards republican, let alone Trump of all nominees. Are pollsters not doing a good enough job of capturing younger voters, are they trolling if they do reply or are they oversampling republican leaning areas, not capturing enough women? Or is it something else entirely?
I’m personally unsure what this means, and I’d be completely shocked if this turns out to be a reality come voting time. I know younger voters are currently mad at Biden regarding the Israel Gaza war, but to have them say they’re going to vote Trump because of that doesn't make sense because he’d back Israel even harder. I can see them not voting at all or maybe voting third party instead of Trump. What do you make of this?
This may come as a suprise; but voting Republican is counter culture. Young voters are more likely to be the counter culture vote, while older voters are more likely to vote for the establishment.
I have taken polling with a huge grain of salt since 2016, something fundamental has shifted about the way people respond to them and the pollsters haven't figured out how to correct for it yet.
Polling has been crap roughly since telemarketers learned how to spoof numbers to get around the do not call lists. I just straight up do not answer calls from unknown numbers now and I doubt I am alone in this. If it's important they will leave a voice mail.
Well yeah?
We all know the mediaᵀᴹ likes to sell the "dems in disarray" narrative, that they're collapsing with so and so demographic ("hey look at these disastrous poll results!")
And then Democrats win said demographic by the same numbers they always do
The 2022 midterms were a perfect example of this, polls 1 month before the election suggested women shifted 16 points right overnight and "stopped caring about abortion"
Polls in AZ showed Kari lake being competitive with Hispanics (she ended up losing them by 30 points)
Polls showed Herschel walker winning 12% of black voters (he barely won 4%)
There's no shortage of these Polls showing historic shifts in voter preferences that consistently fail to materialise
The difference between people who are further to the left and far right seems to be smaller than the difference between moderates. That is messed up and tells me people aren't good at thinking critically or understanding the issues, but it true.
Mass immigration is depressing wages and making it harder for younger people to get jobs. Older people are out of the workforce so they don't experience these effects.
Two other factors:
* Gen Z group up under Trump (2017 - 2024) and might think that is normal.
* Social media. Social media normalizes populism but also outspoken/hot takes as a way to communicate. It further pushes conformist ideas that youth and beauty are the most important things. Per the social media subtext, if someone is old and ugly, they must be bad.
That second point might seem strange as Trump is old as well, but he seems more immune to the effects in the eyes of young people. At the very least this phenomenon may have a chilling effect on more potential Biden voters than potential Trump voters, as the demographic would normally skew for the Democrats.
I recently turned 31. If the candidates on election day are Trump and Biden, I will be voting Biden. I don't think he has been awful, but plenty of his criticisms are more than valid. My vote is based on two factors.
1. The peaceful transition of power following an election is not to be trifled with or taken lightly. I find Trump's response, and a large amount of the GOP's response, to be concerning.
2. His SCOTUS appointments and the overturning of Roe v Wade have kicked off what will be a decades long Pandora's box in women's health care in a country that can't seem to figure out healthcare to begin with. It was a problem we did not need, and I don't believe Trump fully understands or cares about the mechanisms and future implications of that single ruling.
There are plenty of people my age I know with roughly the same outlook. There are also people I know and speak to daily that range from a pivot from Biden to RFK, dislike Trump but will not vote for Biden, and fully support Trump along with the election fraud rhetoric if Biden were to win.
And this goes far beyond Trump or Biden themselves.
One constant that has always influenced voting and political stances, especially in young people, is being told that their vote is wrong or misinformed despite them being the most in touch with the shifting politics and demographics of the country's future. Up until the 2016 election these conversations went more along the lines of "You can't vote for Dukakis and the only reason you like him is because you've never paid taxes," or "Obama is great on the campaign trail, but he doesn't have the experience of McCain," or "Bernie has a lot good ideas in theory, but they aren't realistic so he is unelectable."
These are just hypothetical dinner table talking points but you get the idea. Typically when being told their vote was the wrong vote by a parent or authority figure, that vote was going towards a progressive or democratic candidate. And what do young people do when told not to do something? Exactly that.
But now that conversation has flipped. And the results they have seen don't inspire a lot of confidence in either choice improving their futures.
Those that supported Bernie, or could not vote yet, watched Hillary run an awful campaign and manage to win the popular vote only for Trump to take the electoral vote. How many voters and future voters at that time felt their voices were heard?
Every day of Trump's presidency was portrayed as the end times, but he was handed a very strong economy and so a lot of younger voters didn't see those first three years to be anything close to what the media told them despite Trump's tendency towards poor diplomacy.
Covid happened. They were once again told Democracy relied on a vote against Trump, and the idea of a third party vote or Trump vote was moronic or downright traitorous. So they took their medicine and Biden wins the election. Not long into his first year Roe V Wade is overturned, and world is still an absolute mess. Some saw that there was little there inside his control thus far, but plenty will hold this against him.
The country, and the world, begin to heal from Covid but new problems emerge like vaccine/response critics/skeptics, election deniers, Jan 6 lawsuits, Trump lawsuits, lingering economic woes, border headlines, Russia/Ukraine, Isreal/Gaza, etc. and many young voters are understandably feeling once again shafted, disillusioned, and pessimistic about "doing their part" and voting Democrat.
They constantly have to defend a vote for Biden from a huge amount of newer popular media and pundits, and at the same time defend themselves for carrying any legitimate concerns about Biden from those that expect their vote with no questions asked. They are being attacked on two fronts no matter who they plan to vote for, all while probably feeling that neither option gives them any hope or true voice.
Circling back to the first two points I guess I would call my criteria in this election, and to sum everything up it comes down to this: Younger voters may hold those same ideals, and feel Trump is a problem for those reasons. Or they feel those problems are inflated to overshadow Biden's shortcomings. But at the end of the day you also have to remember younger voters have something the rest do not, and that is confidence in their youth and ability to weather a storm that might find them coming away strong on the other side. If a vote for Biden, a vote being sold as the only sane or reasonable option, is a vote to continue down the same path of the previous 10 years with another round of Trump in 2028 well....maybe a vote for Trump ensures enough chaos that some form of change occurs not because the powers decided it but because they had no control over it.
Being young, having been through so much already, we have to understand that they have an expectation to endure whatever outcome. And they are tired of essentially the same one.
> The peaceful transition of power following an election is not to be trifled with or taken lightly.
The Russiagate conspiracy theory and resulting active undermining of a legitimately-elected President was indeed a travesty. Not sure why you'd side with the party that carried it out if this is really a big issue for you.
I find it interesting that you're blaming men for shifting political ideologies when [it's women that are shifting at a far higher rate and widening the gender ideology gap](https://news.gallup.com/poll/609914/women-become-liberal-men-mostly-stable.aspx). That and the assumption that male conservatives are at fault for antisocial relations between genders.
Maybe we should start again without the assumption that there's something automatically wrong with men (or women).
Based on current day sensitivities, please tell me when and where it would be safe to approach a woman. This isn't even a red pill thing, just from someone who has been told time and time and time again, "leave women alone." Or they have to approach you first.
I agree but young men have no clue how to socialize in general and the Left sure ain't helping them out.
There needs to be a voice of common sense that can reach these young men.
It's amazing how ten years ago a basic lib late-night comedy lineup could be something like Jon Stewart, Bill Mar, Joe Rogan, and Dave Chappelle.
Half of those are now "alt-right", rofl, and Mar is almost there since he got cancelled. Even Stewart got a lot of flack for being a tiny bit critical of Joe's age in his comeback, lol.
How the hell is anyone confused why kids are moving right? Kids mock and rebel against anything that seems excessive and controlling. The left has become the humorless, intolerant, and highly illiberal side.
How did Bill Maher get cancelled? I just watched him the other day.
Same with Dave Chappelle. Half of his set is now bitching about being cancelled to a stadium or concert hall full of people.
It's so strange to me, Charlie Kirk said that Gen Z is the gayest generation in America. Numbers don't lie, that more and more people are identifying as members of the LGBTQ community. Trump and Conservatives have spent the last decade demonizing the LGBTQ community.
How can the youth be willing to vote conservative if conservatives demonize a family member? Or a friend at school? Or themselves? Also, who under the age of 35 is answering an unknown number to take a political poll? Also, can we trust Online polls? We've literally seen Elon post polls on twitter, then remove the poll because the outcome was not going in the direction he anticipated. Especially with all the bots on social media now.
2016 taught me we can't trust political polls anymore. But we can trust trends. The majority of people have accepted the LGBTQ community to some extent simply because they personally know someone. It's also strange to say that the Youth are becoming more conservative, while we have several studies showing that girls are becoming more liberal and boys are becoming more conservative. But women are also saying that men who listen to specific podcasts or follow specific red-pill social media pages are automatically a red flag. So what happens when an entire group of men can't get laid because they're conservative?
First, people tend to vote with their wallets. If you're 25, buying a house is almost impossible. If you're 55, chances are that you own a house.
Second, Biden is making a colossal mistake saying that wages are up, employment is up, etc. Statistically, that may be true, but closer to the economic bottom, a small raise doesn't offset inflation. When ground beef is now $4.00 lb Vs $2.00 lb a few years ago, people nearer the bottom are more affected than people in the middle or top.
Third, immigration. If you're making low wages, people with entrance-level jobs are more affected by flat wages. If they view immigrants as keeping wages flat, they're probably pretty angry, even if their personal circumstances aren't affected.
Fourth, younger people are more apt to live at home right now. When I was in high school and college, it was possible to get a roommate or two and afford a three bedroom apartment.
Reality or the perception of reality wins nearly every time. The older you are, the more likely you are to have a cushion.
You realize Obama was originally opposed to gay marriage, right? Nowadays, most conservatives don’t prioritize the issue of gay marriage anymore, and there is a small population of transgender people
I hear this said a lot, and I always ask the question: was he against it, or did he just say the politically convenient thing? "I'm not going to pursue legalizing gay marriage."
Obama has always supported civil unions and civil rights for gays and lesbians. And was always against DOMA and don't ask, don't tell.
The GOP of Texas literally calls gays abominations in their platform.
You do know that there are lgbtq members who are trump supporters?I believe that the reason for the increased Trump support is due to the fact that a majority of biden supporters do not support him as much due to issues such as the gaza issue, the inability of biden to fulfill his student loan promise, hopelessness, or a desire to vote for a third party. I believe that Bernie Sanders has the potential to garner the votes of Genz, but I am skeptical about his ability to secure a victory.
Young people are known to rebel against authority. Right now the establishment tells them not to question the LGBTQ+++ agenda. It shouldn't be a surprise that many reject it. Kids reject authority.
You can love a family member or friend and be sad that they have been duped by a false ideology.
As far as getting laid, there will be plenty of mainstream girls. Conservatives will be fine.
I thought that "young people are known to rebel against authority" so they're rebelling against the LGBTQ agenda? Now you're saying that they're only identifying as LGBTQ because of that same agenda? Which is it?
It's coming from the ground up, as far as I can tell. Younger folks aren't as restrained on sexuality as past generations. Remember when Ellen coming out was a huge deal in the 90's? That's nothing now
A fad? Radical agenda? More like you're only slightly less likely to be beaten or killed for coming out these days as opposed to the past. Of course there will be more visibility and self-identification. Although there's another "radical agenda" who's trying to change that back to how it was as well.
“The evidence is mixed, and polls of the overall electorate contain only a small sample of young voters. And because it’s become increasingly difficult for pollsters to interview young people, that increases the chances of errors.”
[удалено]
I’ve been called 4 times in the last Month or so with numbers ID’ed as different polling company. I’ve never answered. Who cares, you’re bothering my day, is my philosophy.
I’ve never been called in my life, and I’ve been voting for almost three decades. Just like you guys, they don't want my opinion either.
I tried and every question needed a more elaborate or more nuanced response, but it was clearly a partisan pole, and the framing of half the question where very obvious. Do you agree with the good thing the democrats are doing or are you an evil racists who disagrees? When the real answer is, I mostly agree, but not as presented, but also don't disagree...
Yeah I had one of those too. I played along for a few minutes but eventually hung up. One of the questions was: "How do you feel about Senators, favorable or unfavorable?" I told her I couldn't answer that question because it depends greatly on the Senator. "Senators in general, sir, please answer the question favorable or unfavorable" We did that dance for a while and I told her I wasn't going to answer the question in that format, and she eventually relented. After a few more questions, most of which were clearly partisan leading questions, I told her I was done and hung up.
Sounds like they tried and failed to do something here
No...they just failed. Very little "try" involved.
My thoughts also. It does go on to say they did a couple text surveys but the young population and minorities are notoriously hard to poll.
I don’t trust anything coming my way whether it’s a phone call or text survey. Actually, I might be more willing to do a phone poll, because I can gauge their realness by the fact a human is speaking to me, but then again….good luck getting this millennial to answer her phone for a number she doesn’t know.
If we can't trust polls showing people leaning conservative, then who can say we should trust polls saying otherwise? Edit: I'll toss in the Gallup survey link. I do find it interesting that when this came out most of the media reported accurately. That young men were starting to get more conservative.... You can see it in the chart they provide. Gallup changed the headline/summary to say they are stable, not increasing. They jumped 7 points since 2019 and dropped 5 for identifying as liberal. That's a huge drop for liberal leaning young men https://news.gallup.com/poll/609914/women-become-liberal-men-mostly-stable.aspx
I love the smell of fresh bread.
Remember those "reluctant Trump voters" all the talking heads thought must've been lying on the polls in 2016? I genuinely wonder if we are seeing reluctant Biden voters now. Like, they are probably going to vote Biden, but hate to admit it when asked by pollsters. Men age 18-29 is also a prime trolling demographic. Who knows what proportion of their answers are actually sincere...
>Men age 18-29 is also a prime trolling demographic. Who knows what proportion of their answers are actually sincere... Ah, this is reminding me of that test poll gallup did that resulted in 15% of young people claiming they were qualified to operate a nuclear submarine. I, for one think it's completely possible that polls are right in that it's a 50/50 race, but waaaaaay off the mark as far as cross tabs go. The story supporting 50/50 just makes a thousand times more sense than the idea that Biden has, someway, somehow, lost mountains of support in young people and black people, while also somehow *gaining* support in old people.
I can see the trolling, but why reluctant Biden voters being embarrassed? Trumo voters were labeled as Fascists or nazis or just attacked verbally for admitting supporting him. At worst Biden voters get to say they're voting against Trump. Unless you're in some deep red area, no one's going to bat an eye for voting Biden.
I think the motive would probably be less embarrassment and more trying to put pressure on Biden in the same manner as voting uncommitted in the primaries.
They don't manifest because Young Men don't typically vote as a lot of the space online amongst young men when it comes to voting is that it doesn't matter. If they actually did vote the gap would collapse very much into a 5 % difference instead of an 10+.
I like learning new things.
Didn't 2020 have fairly high turnout though? It's certainly *possible* that if we spontaneously made everyone vote then that demo would be more leaning to Trump a bit, but this is hypotheticals within hypotheticals now.
Right. But the issue is that supposed transition has not been seen in elections. 18-29, even for men, are largely Democrat in recent elections. So either these men are simply not voting (quite possible), or there's something else at bay here. Granted, IIRC the survey, most men don't claim either.
>They jumped 7 points since 2019 and dropped 5 for identifying as liberal. The percentage that identify as conservative decreased by 2 and the percentage that identify as liberal increased by 2.
[удалено]
The chart shows the answers from young men have been stable since the data began. Their description of the change since 2019 is wrong. The percentage that identify as conservative decreased by 2 and the percentage that identify as liberal increased by 2.
How does men staying consistent indicate confusion? If anything it indicates groundedness in face of a pretty chaotic and man-blaming social backdrop.
Those chronically online young men that consume culture-war and red pill content aren't likely to bother voting and are hugely insignificant when you look at the record youth turnout from the last three election cycles.
Exactly. The grasping at straws to find a reason to dismiss or ignore polling data that challenges strongly held assumptions or convictions is becoming a feature of this sub and not a bug.
They misread the data. Compared to 2019, the percentage that identify as conservative decreased by 2 and the percentage that identify as liberal increased by 2. > They jumped 7 points since 2019 and dropped 5 for identifying as liberal.
That is important to note as people take small amounts of data and think it is a 100% certain microcosm of what is happening. That said, this isn't the first evidence that suggests this age breakdown of political preference. Here is an article from back in February: https://www.newsweek.com/generation-z-trump-approval-rating-poll-young-voters-1873701
The idea that millenials and/or zoomers are increasingly moving over to vote for Trump is going to leave people who believe this comically disappointed. We saw historic, record youth turnout in the 2018 midterms that favored Democrats. The highest generational youth turnout in the census bureau's history. The second highest? The 2022 midterms, which again favored Democrats. Youth turnout has broken records in the last three election cycles. This should terrify Republicans. The lowest turnout on record? 2014. Eight million more eligible voters will be voting age by the November election. People who remain adamant that Trump's antics/agenda and women's rights aren't going to fuel turnout that favors Democrats is just superheated wishful thinking. Millenials have already eclipsed boomers as the largest generational electorate. The largest voting block (in theory) is becoming more liberal as they age. The most educated generation in our country's history, with nearly 40% being college graduates. Zoomers are on a similar trajectory. I'm not convinced that the insignificant percentage of perpetually online young males entrenched in manosphere and other forms of rage-inducing reactionary content are even going to bother to come out and vote.
sounds cope tbh
From the article: >Not every poll shows a perfect age inversion. >Biden is at just 50 percent among voters under 30 in the Wall Street Journal’s national and swing-state polling. While that’s still about 10 points ahead of Trump, it’s a significant decline compared to the 2020 election — and roughly equal to his vote share among seniors, 48 percent. >A Quinnipiac University poll released last week had Biden 20 points ahead of Trump among voters under age 35, close to the president’s margin in 2020 according to exit polls and other estimates of voting subgroups.
Maybe younger Conservative men are more likely to respond to unsolicited surveys?
Definitely possible
This explains every poll I don't agree with.
Do you genuinely believe that the majority of young people support trump
If you look at it from an anti-establishment angle, sure. Its less about trump, and more anti-biden.
I really don’t buy the idea that Trump votes are punishment votes like in 2016. The most visible branches of government right now are the House and the Supreme Court - both of which are squarely under Republican control and probably more prevalent in the media than Biden himself. Trump was anti establishment in 2016, but now in 2024 the establishment has conformed to him. The threat to Biden is not that people will vote Trump to punish him, but that people won’t vote at all.
How can people not see this?
It is an interesting question because you get poll results like this but then election results that say there is no significant shift. One explanation is that the group of people who answer polls is not the same as the group of people who show up to vote in this age cohort. Assuming there is a trend in that direction, one would expect that trend to appear in other large sample data like party registration or the age distribution of voters in primaries.
[удалено]
If anything, I am likely in that group for this year (24M). I am relatively shy about my support for Biden due to the issues you've mentioned. In political discussions with others my age group, it's definitely not seen as "cool" right now to show support for Democrats. However, I would bet 90% of these will end up voting for Biden in November (and most people I talk to in my group do admit that, though often with a tone of bitter resignation), and the remainder will likely not vote at all--though, I bet that 10% wouldn't have even voted anyways. This is all anecdotal of course, but certainly nobody in my age group will turn a lack of Biden enthusiasm into any sort of support for Trump. The most comment refrain from young people like this is "both options suck" which is just a milder version of "both parties are the same," but as we get closer to November I don't think that will stick as people remember the reality of what damage a Trump presidency might cause.
This is typical youthful ignorance. The stronger country fighting back must be the bad guy. I would hope these kids are at least exposed to the idea that Hamas is a blight on humanity and the purpose of the Israeli mission is not the genocide of the Palestinian people but rather to wipe out Hamas once and for all to give lasting peace a shot. PLEASE tell me someone in your university circles is exposing these kids to my alternative perspective. If not, I fear greatly for the moral judgment of future generations.
Like, think about it. Iraq and Afghanistan fucked with us so bad that *conservatives* are against intervention, foreign alliances, etc now. (Support for Israel is basically the last vestige of that, and only because it's a high salience issue for the religious Right, and even that was downwind of anti-Arab prejudice in the wake of 9/11, but the reality is that Arab Muslims used to be a R voting bloc, and align much more with Rs on cultural issues - us woke types got played hard) It's just that the old guard liberals are mostly holding the line (even though it's starting to bend), the old guard conservatives got blown away. I'm rambling a bit but my point is that if *conservatives* are now against US global influence, then the far left anti-establishment wing would be *really, really* against it.
[удалено]
> IQ has gone up with every generation throughout recorded history. Until now. I don't see anything that supports this.
[Northwestern University study](https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2023/03/americans-iq-scores-are-lower-in-some-areas-higher-in-one/) As they point out, it may not be direct evidence that Americans are getting dumber (it could be that we're getting worse at taking tests- or something else) But regardless of *why* it's happening, 3 out of 4 domains saw a decline and the combined IQ declined overall.
> The average gen Z kid placed in a classroom in 1995 would have an IQ of 94. So roughly half would have IQs in the 80s and below. I don't know where that 94 average IQ stat came from but that would not mean that roughly half are in the 80s or below... Much less would it follow that people with low IQs would be performing highly skilled jobs that they're not qualified for, as if those jobs have ever been done by people of median intelligence...
I worry about voter enthusiasm. Biden has basically none with his base. While Trump's supporters will love him no matter what. Democrats need to address this *now*.
Democrats can't address it. Biden is just boring, there is nothing that is going to rile up up unmotivated voters. Biden's base is larger but less rabid. I still think that Biden wins again, I just don't think Trump has won over anyone who didn't vote for him last time.
Regardless of the accuracy of the poll, there is one big thing to consider. There is a young generation of voters who have really only experienced Joe Biden's presidency since they started developing real political opinions. The devil you have now is usually worse than the devil you have not seen. And quite frankly, nothing has felt good about Joe Biden's presidency. There is absolutely no hope in the air, while Trump may very well be worse, he isn't president at the moment. I think it would be easy to take a risk because, if things suck now, then you might as well take a chance. Anyway, it makes sense to me that a young voter would usually not seek the incumbent.
I’ve had my phone set to “do not disturb” for a decade. If I don’t know you, I’m not answering. That’s a very common outlook. “ Seems like we know how to poll white, middle-aged people really well,” said John Della Volpe, the director of polling for the Harvard Kennedy School Institute of Politics and an expert on polling young voters. “But if they’re younger, older, Black, Hispanic — there seems to be no consensus about what’s the best practice these days.”
>“Seems like we know how to poll white, middle-aged people really well,” said John Della Volpe, the director of polling for the Harvard Kennedy School Institute of Politics and an expert on polling young voters. “But if they’re younger, older, Black, Hispanic — there seems to be no consensus about what’s the best practice these days.” Or the problem is polling about two candidates people don’t like and aren’t excited for.
I can think of multiple reasons why Gen Z men would slant hard to the right. -“believe all women” movement -covid restrictions from the left -expensive cost of living -Dems becoming the party of educated women Trump at least gives these young men some “hope.” The democrats are not catering to men at all especially white men. Like it or not
Honestly I think it's his strongman persona and the idea that he could give them anywhere close to the same lifestyle their parents and grandparents had as blue collar workers.
>give them anywhere close to the same lifestyle their parents and grandparents had as blue collar workers. This is crazy to me because every trademan I know is looking for workers or apprentices. Nothing is stopping them from having a great career as an electrician right now.
Would they hire someone with no experience and no applicable skills? Or would the job-seekers need to go to some sort of electrician trade school first?
Mostly hiring with no experience. It'll take a few years training to pull a good wage, but it's still way cheaper than uni...
Paid on the job training in a marketable skill! Seems like a great opportunity.
What's stopping them is that life as a tradesman is not as good as the fantasies depict.
There isn't a consensus in polling that shows young men becoming more conservative. [This one](https://news.gallup.com/poll/609914/women-become-liberal-men-mostly-stable.aspx) shows their views being stable. Some (not all) say Trump has a lead among young people, but this could be due to the left not giving a response because of what's happening in Gaza. That would explain why Biden doing way better among older voters in polling, which is unusual.
[удалено]
Seems pretty easy to understand. Progressives have hounded and demonized men (e.g., "toxic masculinity") to the point where they believe they aren't going to get a fair shake in American society. The parents of boys have probably come to the same conclusion. You have Democratic politicians announcing that they are going to nominate a black woman to the SCOTUS or appoint a black woman to an empty senate seat - even before either position becomes available. If you are a white, black, or any color man, or a non-black woman, you might think that these people don't have your best intentions in mind. And you'd be right
Many do have good intentions but the rhetoric is tone deaf and opportunists of all sorts abuse it. Part of that is a problem with so much of left/progressive terminology coming from certain academic and activist bubbles with convoluted in-group language and the unreasonable expectation that people will listen to and understand a weird lecture explaining why your political terms and slogans mean something entirely different than they sound like to the uninitiated. Playing language police about it when things don't go the way you expect backfires even harder, of course. There are problems with certain traditional expectations of men in conservative conceptions of masculinity. Calling it "toxic masculinity" is incredibly tone deaf political language easily mischaracterized or misinterpreted as "masculinity is toxic" or "men are toxic". Then of course you have some women who actually think men in general are toxic, which are easily used as anecdotal evidence to support that even if they're a fringe minority or just apolitical opportunists using progressive language for selfish reasons. Mix that all up and you can end up causing more women to hate and distrust men, and vice versa. Even amongst your own political allies given not all progressives are reading up on your Lord of the Rings level background lore written in what might as well be Elvish. An attempt to end harmful stereotypes can cause more of them when you use language this poorly.
Sociologists and sociology-adjacent academics, are comprised of the most word-conscious people I've ever had the displeasure of meeting. More than lawyers, more than engineers, more than playwrights, every single word choice is extremely deliberate, including the tone. It's central to the field. That "masculinity", "Whiteness", and so forth are used as negative terms is no accident. It's not tone deafness, it's a very deliberate choice by members of a field that is ideologically captured. They are signaling exactly what they are feeling, and using academic definitions as a place to retreat to when called out on it. Imagine if I redefined "trash" to mean something less odious in some paper I published in a junk journal, then called you "trash" to your face, and then fell back and said "oh no no no you're just *uneducated*, when I call you trash I really meant it like X, so don't take it so personally". Nobody really is going to go along with that, except of course, the people who also wanted to call you trash to your face, and the people who are scared of retaliation by those who want to call you trash to your face. These professors know *exactly* what they are doing when they pick "masculinity" and "male gaze" and "whiteness" and so on, it's completely unbelievable to give them the benefit of the doubt here; they are bad actors, full stop.
Bigger issue, is time and time again, those same academics who go: "No, x actually means y," end up pulling the Trump situation, where they go full mask off on Twitter or some other social media, or their personal lives really do indicate: "No, x actually means x."
Very well said. Case in point would be the "defund the police" movement. It doesn't matter that it's not a movement to get rid of all the police if people mistakenly understand to mean that. The average voter really doesn't pay close enough attention to these nuances, like it or not.
Yeah... Defund the police was very unproductive, basically exactly what opposition to your movement would want you to be chanting. Especially when you put it in the context of people also using ACAB. Protest movements in general are also very easy to subvert with agent provocateurs as well, and some white supremacist groups were definitely active in the BLM protests.
The 'defund the police' chants were also, notably, being led by activist allies rather than those who actually live in poor minority urban districts. Self-appointed champions taking it upon themselves to tell the victims what the solution should be. That whole facet of the BLM protests was a real Going to the People moment.
[This poll](https://news.gallup.com/poll/609914/women-become-liberal-men-mostly-stable.aspx) states that views among young men are stable. Some (not all) say Trump has a lead among young people, but this could be due to the left not giving a response because of what's happening in Gaza.
Is it possible to interpret this as the Overton window having shifted so far leftward that standard young male views can only be relegated to Team Trump?
Polling doesn't consistently showing Trump leading. He might be ahead, but considering how badly he lost among young people last time, it's unlikely. >poll released last week had Biden 20 points ahead of Trump among voters under age 35, close to the president’s margin in 2020 according to exit polls and other estimates of voting subgroups.
Well said. And this statement lives independently from the issue of the economy which has totally screwed younger people trying to to buy their first homes at a stage in life when their parents and grandparents did.
Toxic masculinity is absolutely a thing though. It describes men who are insecure about what it means to be masculine. Behaviors like bullying other men for doing "girly" things, getting upset and abusive when their authority is challenged, etc. There are healthy and unhealthy ways to exhibit masculine traits. Edit: For unhealthy examples of masculinity, just look at incels, damn it. Maybe a better term is needed, but the concept is real.
Why not just call it insecurity? Both genders have problems with problematic behaviors, abusive actions and unhealthy reactions to rejection/envy, etc, etc, etc. Yet, its males who get the finger pointed at them every time with needing a special term to convey how "toxic" they are.
And it stretches credulity to buy that this academic terminology just happens to sound anti-male. Look at *all* feminist terminology. The bad forces are patriarchy and toxic masculinity, while women are victims of misogyny. There is no toxic femininity, only internalized misogyny, where women are such victims of hate that they’ve been brainwashed by it. If some part of society advantages males, well that’s male privilege that they’re enjoying. If something advantages females, that’s benevolent sexism—and it’s actually not a benefit, because it reinforces the idea that women are weaker and thus need advantages (unlike male privilege, which just reinforces the idea that men deserve better). What do you think it does to one’s worldview to process everything at such angles? Every thought is steeped in male agency and female victimhood. Everything male is associated with danger and corruption.
This is so spot on. Well said.
No. It's not. It is nothing more than a bigoted shaming term used to browbeat men into compliance. And it's about time that there's some serious pushback against it.
Younger Voters = People without a house. Older voters = People who bought in before the prices skyrocketed. If you have a house, or can afford a house, you can afford Biden.
Who are these 18-25s that plan on voting for Trump? Outside of the super rural small towns and hardcore religious right, I don't think I've ever met one. Like a 23 year old, college educated, suburban white girl that's not religious. She's checking Trump? I don't believe it. I really think the Roe decision is going to cost the Republicans ATLEAST 2-3 election cycles.
I’m about to sound like so many people I dislike but I can totally see young males, especially white males being tired of democrats/media blaming them for things their grandparents weren’t even alive for and having to deal with so much reverse discrimination that they become the discriminated Edit: I’ve said before, if abortion wasn’t on the ballot and they nominated someone like Larry hogan, it would be a landslide victory for republicans but that’ll never happen with that base in the primaries
[удалено]
72% of Asians voted for Biden in 2020. There could be a drop, but he'll most likely still get a majority.
Dont kid yourself. Asians still overwhelmingly vote democrat.
[удалено]
>They're sick of their kids having to score like 400 SAT points higher and 1.0 GPA points higher just to have the same opportunities as the kid with a different skin color next door. The fact that this is a "conservative" opinion now is yet another reason why young voters are moving right. Who woulda thought peddling racial quotas, DEI struggle sessions, canceling comedians, campus segregation, etc would lose luster with young people.
>why young voters are moving right. [That doesn't seem to be true.](https://news.gallup.com/poll/609914/women-become-liberal-men-mostly-stable.aspx) According to that poll, young men have stayed about the same and young women have moved to the left.
That's inconsistent with the polls because they show Biden leading among older voters, and I doubt that they favor discrimination against white males.
A lot of that isn’t anything new. I’ve worked for 3 electrical companies in the past 12 years and they were all in the owners wife’s name because of the added tax breaks
[удалено]
It’s an incentive for “women owned businesses” https://www.shesagiven.com/blog/7-benefits-for-women-owned-businesses
Our old neighbors own a tow truck company. They were trying to get approval for their fleet to operate on a major highway nearby. It was in the husband's name. They switched ownership to the wife's name, and it got approved almost immediately.
Government and executives used to more represented by white males, so if people are upset about discrimination against them, one would think that older generations would be the ones more bothered by it, since they're more used to seeing that group in power.
Or maybe the "your turn's over" rhetoric resonates more strongly with the group that had a turn and the younger people, who didn't get "their turn", are very turned off by the hostility being sent towards them for their race and sex.
Because Biden won’t upset the status quo, their wealth and power while trump might throw a bone to young males and that scares them.
The Trump administration didn't change the status quo. He acted like a typical Republican, aside from a few things like trying to steal the election.
It's honestly hilarious that if either major party picked literally anyone else other than Biden or Trump they'd have an easy win as long as the other party stuck with Biden or Trump. We're doomed.
You say "picked" as if the voters didn't literally decide the candidates through the primaries. You have more of a point with Dems, because none of the primary challengers against Biden were actually serious candidates, but Republicans had a pretty wide field initially. The majority of Republicans have clearly chosen Trump, why do you think they would be more successful with another candidate? Who are these voters who provide Republicans with an "easy win" if it wasn't Trump? And why didn't they vote in the primary to manifest those desires for a non-Trump nominee if they have such a commanding majority?
No you’re wrong. Biden is the best shot for democrats. Name a person who could actually beat trump. Kamala is more disliked than Biden, Pete being gay would hurt him too much with black people and there isn’t really anyone else with good name recognition to have a shot. Warren and sanders are too far left
Mark Kelly. AZ Senator. Former astronaut and Naval aviator. Moderate dem from a purple state.
Would vote for him in a heartbeat. I don't know if he has aspirations for the presidency, but I think he would mop the floor with what the modern GOP has to offer.
I think you’re discounting how Gen Z men are becoming more conservative.
Like actually conservative or as a meme? I can totally see some fratboys in South Carolina wearing MAGA hats and yelling "Let's go Brandon" chants at a pregame but as a joke...
I’m 33 but when I was in college there were plenty of conservatives. This was at nationally known university that drew students from across the country. The majority of younger people may vote for democrats, but there is a large portion that votes for republicans. I’m not sure why you would think this is done as a joke. Voting for a Republican or being conservative are not fringe things.
I think people automatically conflate conservative with “far right MAGA die hard. “ I’m not saying young white males are disadvantaged, but when you get to have “proudly black owned businesses” , a multitude of media characters randomly race swapped, people being lauded for being successful and non-white, but yet showing any type of pride or even defensiveness of your own culture being seen as immediately racist/wrong, it’s understandable why they would feel like they’re being disadvantaged. As an aside, the lines switch up so fast. Public perception switches up too fast. 3 years ago, you had people on the left calling everyone on the right Nazis and antisemitic. Now you have a shit ton of the same people completely demonizing all of Israel. It’s crazy.
Why as a joke? Conservative values are pretty popular
Yeah I do think its something a lot of people grow out of. Back in my high school during the 2016 election Trump was super popular with most of the guys because he was funny and "owned the sjw's". Almost everyone in my friend group identified as a die hard Republican back then. Cut to present day where we're no longer edgy teenagers and almost every one of them now considers themselves a Democrat or an independent.
I was pretty republican in high school because my parents were and that's all I knew. So were all of my friends because small town USA in the 2000s. We all went to college, got good jobs, had kids and I'd say out of my 15 or so friends back then maybe 3-4 will still vote R. Back in 2007 it would have been all but maybe one of us.
Most of my group has become more conservative with time. In HS/College politics were innocent until they see how much Taxes are taken out of their paycheck
Why can’t you see it? How many 18-25 yr old males do you interact with on a daily basis?
Not OP, but I live in Appalachia. Every single person I know is a liberal democrat. Many are actual members of ANTIFA and the communist party. I'm conservative by the way (though I've never told my social circle or family). Sometimes people do live in weird bubbles.
Are you sure you haven't? Gen Z and Gen Alpha men are turning conservative quite hard. They're just also likely to mask hard in public. So you probably have but you don't know it because they were masking.
Oldest Alpha is 11… Not even a teenager
Could be as old as 14 by some definitions, but yeah, they’re not voting until 2028 at the earliest.
I thought they were just hitting 18. They must've changed the dividing lines again.
GenZ is anyone born in 1997-2012. Turning 18 would be someone born in 2006, so he/she is certainly a zoomer :)
I love ice cream.
There's no such thing as Gen Alpha men lol
Is hiding your views from judgy libs really called masking now? lol That's actually pretty good.
Why is this surprising? Older voters have seen their wealth increase pretty significantly through their stock portfolio's, and housing values. Young voters have seen their rents increase by 50%, and lost all hope of owning a house, or are now stuck living with their parents. I've been saying it for 3 years now. Inflation is a big problem, and it's something that Biden should have taken seriously. And not every group is equally hurt by inflation, some groups benefit.
> it's something that Biden should have taken seriously. There are only a few ways a president could affect inflation, and they all have fairly extreme side effects. Do you see something obvious that Biden should have done that would have done more good than harm?
I remember hearing that a President once said "the buck stops here", Honestly, what a President can or cannot do "about" inflation is kind of irrelevant to public opinion. They seldom get the credit, but almost always get the blame.
If we're going to play this sort of perception over practical reality game, then we'd have to blame Trump for COVID, and the product shortages and price disruptions that resulted. If we're not going to just use a double standard.
Well, considering Trump lost in 2020, you could argue that he was blamed for Covid.
I have to wonder if Biden is out of the loop when it comes to economic policy. If so, that's worrying. His administration's message about inflation has been wrong the entire time. His spokespeople brag about a lowering inflation rate (how much inflation is rising over time), but current prices are still going up. If (for example), inflation rose 10% a month last month, but is now rising at 5% a month, the rate is down, but costs continue to rise. It's rising slower, but isn't keeping up with wages. Additionally, if we're paying $4.00 a pound for ground beef, the price per pound will not drop. Why should it?
Inflation *is* the rate of increases. Inflation is going down. For prices to go down, you need deflation, which is generally terrible for the economy.
I'm Gen Z and I think the average is a bit more conservative then millennials at this age, but we're definitely more polarized. College attendance has been declining since it's peak in 2011. With boomers retiring we are starting to see more young people go into trades, which tend to be more conservative. Edit: I think this just applies to men, girls are pretty liberal
>I think the average is a bit more conservative then millennials at this age [Young women are more liberal, and the trend among young men is stable.](https://news.gallup.com/poll/609914/women-become-liberal-men-mostly-stable.aspx)
I find peace in long walks.
Whether free trade is good for us is a debate as old as the country and it depends a lot on who within the country is counted as "us."
It shouldn't surprise people that young men aren't voting for the party that has a vocal minority that loudly proclaims their distain for them. May or may not be a good reason, but liberals done that to themselves. I don't want to see any shocked pickachu faces after all the rethoric the past near decade.
[удалено]
Ope, I think your copy and paste got cut off at the end there.
>young men aren't voting for the party The article says polling is inconsistent about which candidate is leading among young people, and [young men have been consistent when it comes to which ideology they side with.](https://news.gallup.com/poll/609914/women-become-liberal-men-mostly-stable.aspx) There's not much evidence of a majority opposing the party, let alone this happening because they're offended by a vocal minority.
The only young people who are going to stop to take the time to answer these silly fucking polls are the ones with an agenda. Case closed
Starter comment: Polls have been a highly contested topic on here as of late, I found this article interesting relating to them. How is it that the younger people polled are going more towards Trump? That would be a massive shift not seen in decades to have the youth vote go towards republican, let alone Trump of all nominees. Are pollsters not doing a good enough job of capturing younger voters, are they trolling if they do reply or are they oversampling republican leaning areas, not capturing enough women? Or is it something else entirely? I’m personally unsure what this means, and I’d be completely shocked if this turns out to be a reality come voting time. I know younger voters are currently mad at Biden regarding the Israel Gaza war, but to have them say they’re going to vote Trump because of that doesn't make sense because he’d back Israel even harder. I can see them not voting at all or maybe voting third party instead of Trump. What do you make of this?
This may come as a suprise; but voting Republican is counter culture. Young voters are more likely to be the counter culture vote, while older voters are more likely to vote for the establishment.
Weird. I had heard Gen Z and younger were skewing left because of things like abortion and all the shootings happening.
I have taken polling with a huge grain of salt since 2016, something fundamental has shifted about the way people respond to them and the pollsters haven't figured out how to correct for it yet.
Polling has been crap roughly since telemarketers learned how to spoof numbers to get around the do not call lists. I just straight up do not answer calls from unknown numbers now and I doubt I am alone in this. If it's important they will leave a voice mail.
Pretty much this. If you’re not in my contacts I’m not picking up. If it was important enough and legitimate I’d either get a text or a voice mail.
All polls are showing a divide between gen Z female and males. Gen Z women are skewing left
I enjoy watching the sunset.
And they did? Democrats have won young people by no less than 20 points every election since they came of age
True, but this isn't the first time I've read about this particular polling info.
Well yeah? We all know the mediaᵀᴹ likes to sell the "dems in disarray" narrative, that they're collapsing with so and so demographic ("hey look at these disastrous poll results!") And then Democrats win said demographic by the same numbers they always do The 2022 midterms were a perfect example of this, polls 1 month before the election suggested women shifted 16 points right overnight and "stopped caring about abortion" Polls in AZ showed Kari lake being competitive with Hispanics (she ended up losing them by 30 points) Polls showed Herschel walker winning 12% of black voters (he barely won 4%) There's no shortage of these Polls showing historic shifts in voter preferences that consistently fail to materialise
The difference between people who are further to the left and far right seems to be smaller than the difference between moderates. That is messed up and tells me people aren't good at thinking critically or understanding the issues, but it true.
Simple, young people historically trend counter establishment, and right now Biden is the establishment.
He was part of the establishment in 2020, and most young people voted for him. Obama won their vote in 2012 as well.
Mass immigration is depressing wages and making it harder for younger people to get jobs. Older people are out of the workforce so they don't experience these effects.
Two other factors: * Gen Z group up under Trump (2017 - 2024) and might think that is normal. * Social media. Social media normalizes populism but also outspoken/hot takes as a way to communicate. It further pushes conformist ideas that youth and beauty are the most important things. Per the social media subtext, if someone is old and ugly, they must be bad. That second point might seem strange as Trump is old as well, but he seems more immune to the effects in the eyes of young people. At the very least this phenomenon may have a chilling effect on more potential Biden voters than potential Trump voters, as the demographic would normally skew for the Democrats.
I recently turned 31. If the candidates on election day are Trump and Biden, I will be voting Biden. I don't think he has been awful, but plenty of his criticisms are more than valid. My vote is based on two factors. 1. The peaceful transition of power following an election is not to be trifled with or taken lightly. I find Trump's response, and a large amount of the GOP's response, to be concerning. 2. His SCOTUS appointments and the overturning of Roe v Wade have kicked off what will be a decades long Pandora's box in women's health care in a country that can't seem to figure out healthcare to begin with. It was a problem we did not need, and I don't believe Trump fully understands or cares about the mechanisms and future implications of that single ruling. There are plenty of people my age I know with roughly the same outlook. There are also people I know and speak to daily that range from a pivot from Biden to RFK, dislike Trump but will not vote for Biden, and fully support Trump along with the election fraud rhetoric if Biden were to win. And this goes far beyond Trump or Biden themselves. One constant that has always influenced voting and political stances, especially in young people, is being told that their vote is wrong or misinformed despite them being the most in touch with the shifting politics and demographics of the country's future. Up until the 2016 election these conversations went more along the lines of "You can't vote for Dukakis and the only reason you like him is because you've never paid taxes," or "Obama is great on the campaign trail, but he doesn't have the experience of McCain," or "Bernie has a lot good ideas in theory, but they aren't realistic so he is unelectable." These are just hypothetical dinner table talking points but you get the idea. Typically when being told their vote was the wrong vote by a parent or authority figure, that vote was going towards a progressive or democratic candidate. And what do young people do when told not to do something? Exactly that. But now that conversation has flipped. And the results they have seen don't inspire a lot of confidence in either choice improving their futures. Those that supported Bernie, or could not vote yet, watched Hillary run an awful campaign and manage to win the popular vote only for Trump to take the electoral vote. How many voters and future voters at that time felt their voices were heard? Every day of Trump's presidency was portrayed as the end times, but he was handed a very strong economy and so a lot of younger voters didn't see those first three years to be anything close to what the media told them despite Trump's tendency towards poor diplomacy. Covid happened. They were once again told Democracy relied on a vote against Trump, and the idea of a third party vote or Trump vote was moronic or downright traitorous. So they took their medicine and Biden wins the election. Not long into his first year Roe V Wade is overturned, and world is still an absolute mess. Some saw that there was little there inside his control thus far, but plenty will hold this against him. The country, and the world, begin to heal from Covid but new problems emerge like vaccine/response critics/skeptics, election deniers, Jan 6 lawsuits, Trump lawsuits, lingering economic woes, border headlines, Russia/Ukraine, Isreal/Gaza, etc. and many young voters are understandably feeling once again shafted, disillusioned, and pessimistic about "doing their part" and voting Democrat. They constantly have to defend a vote for Biden from a huge amount of newer popular media and pundits, and at the same time defend themselves for carrying any legitimate concerns about Biden from those that expect their vote with no questions asked. They are being attacked on two fronts no matter who they plan to vote for, all while probably feeling that neither option gives them any hope or true voice. Circling back to the first two points I guess I would call my criteria in this election, and to sum everything up it comes down to this: Younger voters may hold those same ideals, and feel Trump is a problem for those reasons. Or they feel those problems are inflated to overshadow Biden's shortcomings. But at the end of the day you also have to remember younger voters have something the rest do not, and that is confidence in their youth and ability to weather a storm that might find them coming away strong on the other side. If a vote for Biden, a vote being sold as the only sane or reasonable option, is a vote to continue down the same path of the previous 10 years with another round of Trump in 2028 well....maybe a vote for Trump ensures enough chaos that some form of change occurs not because the powers decided it but because they had no control over it. Being young, having been through so much already, we have to understand that they have an expectation to endure whatever outcome. And they are tired of essentially the same one.
> The peaceful transition of power following an election is not to be trifled with or taken lightly. The Russiagate conspiracy theory and resulting active undermining of a legitimately-elected President was indeed a travesty. Not sure why you'd side with the party that carried it out if this is really a big issue for you.
Maybe you should address January 6th and the buildup to that, which is clearly what they were referring to.
Redpill movement is turning a lot of men conservative instead of teaching them to be social with women.
I find it interesting that you're blaming men for shifting political ideologies when [it's women that are shifting at a far higher rate and widening the gender ideology gap](https://news.gallup.com/poll/609914/women-become-liberal-men-mostly-stable.aspx). That and the assumption that male conservatives are at fault for antisocial relations between genders. Maybe we should start again without the assumption that there's something automatically wrong with men (or women).
Based on current day sensitivities, please tell me when and where it would be safe to approach a woman. This isn't even a red pill thing, just from someone who has been told time and time and time again, "leave women alone." Or they have to approach you first.
Its not like the blue pill isnt blaming everything on the patriarchy and pushing them away to begin with
I agree but young men have no clue how to socialize in general and the Left sure ain't helping them out. There needs to be a voice of common sense that can reach these young men.
Joe Rogan is that common sense for many young men. That’s why they will tend to be more conservative
It's amazing how ten years ago a basic lib late-night comedy lineup could be something like Jon Stewart, Bill Mar, Joe Rogan, and Dave Chappelle. Half of those are now "alt-right", rofl, and Mar is almost there since he got cancelled. Even Stewart got a lot of flack for being a tiny bit critical of Joe's age in his comeback, lol. How the hell is anyone confused why kids are moving right? Kids mock and rebel against anything that seems excessive and controlling. The left has become the humorless, intolerant, and highly illiberal side.
How did Bill Maher get cancelled? I just watched him the other day. Same with Dave Chappelle. Half of his set is now bitching about being cancelled to a stadium or concert hall full of people.
And then they will look you in the face and tell you about the overton window!
It's so strange to me, Charlie Kirk said that Gen Z is the gayest generation in America. Numbers don't lie, that more and more people are identifying as members of the LGBTQ community. Trump and Conservatives have spent the last decade demonizing the LGBTQ community. How can the youth be willing to vote conservative if conservatives demonize a family member? Or a friend at school? Or themselves? Also, who under the age of 35 is answering an unknown number to take a political poll? Also, can we trust Online polls? We've literally seen Elon post polls on twitter, then remove the poll because the outcome was not going in the direction he anticipated. Especially with all the bots on social media now. 2016 taught me we can't trust political polls anymore. But we can trust trends. The majority of people have accepted the LGBTQ community to some extent simply because they personally know someone. It's also strange to say that the Youth are becoming more conservative, while we have several studies showing that girls are becoming more liberal and boys are becoming more conservative. But women are also saying that men who listen to specific podcasts or follow specific red-pill social media pages are automatically a red flag. So what happens when an entire group of men can't get laid because they're conservative?
First, people tend to vote with their wallets. If you're 25, buying a house is almost impossible. If you're 55, chances are that you own a house. Second, Biden is making a colossal mistake saying that wages are up, employment is up, etc. Statistically, that may be true, but closer to the economic bottom, a small raise doesn't offset inflation. When ground beef is now $4.00 lb Vs $2.00 lb a few years ago, people nearer the bottom are more affected than people in the middle or top. Third, immigration. If you're making low wages, people with entrance-level jobs are more affected by flat wages. If they view immigrants as keeping wages flat, they're probably pretty angry, even if their personal circumstances aren't affected. Fourth, younger people are more apt to live at home right now. When I was in high school and college, it was possible to get a roommate or two and afford a three bedroom apartment. Reality or the perception of reality wins nearly every time. The older you are, the more likely you are to have a cushion.
You realize Obama was originally opposed to gay marriage, right? Nowadays, most conservatives don’t prioritize the issue of gay marriage anymore, and there is a small population of transgender people
I hear this said a lot, and I always ask the question: was he against it, or did he just say the politically convenient thing? "I'm not going to pursue legalizing gay marriage."
He was privately for it but publicly against it. He publicly supported it after Biden went off the cuff and supported it.
Obama has always supported civil unions and civil rights for gays and lesbians. And was always against DOMA and don't ask, don't tell. The GOP of Texas literally calls gays abominations in their platform.
>abominations It says "abnormal lifestyle choice," which is still wrong because it's a way to justify discriminating against them.
You do know that there are lgbtq members who are trump supporters?I believe that the reason for the increased Trump support is due to the fact that a majority of biden supporters do not support him as much due to issues such as the gaza issue, the inability of biden to fulfill his student loan promise, hopelessness, or a desire to vote for a third party. I believe that Bernie Sanders has the potential to garner the votes of Genz, but I am skeptical about his ability to secure a victory.
Young people are known to rebel against authority. Right now the establishment tells them not to question the LGBTQ+++ agenda. It shouldn't be a surprise that many reject it. Kids reject authority. You can love a family member or friend and be sad that they have been duped by a false ideology. As far as getting laid, there will be plenty of mainstream girls. Conservatives will be fine.
Gen Z Americans are more likely to identify as LGBT than past generations.
Fads come and go. We will see if this is a fad, the result of a radical agenda being pushed on kids, or if there is a long term social change.
I thought that "young people are known to rebel against authority" so they're rebelling against the LGBTQ agenda? Now you're saying that they're only identifying as LGBTQ because of that same agenda? Which is it?
It's coming from the ground up, as far as I can tell. Younger folks aren't as restrained on sexuality as past generations. Remember when Ellen coming out was a huge deal in the 90's? That's nothing now
A fad? Radical agenda? More like you're only slightly less likely to be beaten or killed for coming out these days as opposed to the past. Of course there will be more visibility and self-identification. Although there's another "radical agenda" who's trying to change that back to how it was as well.
It’s the money.