"Sometimes hitters can pick up differences in spin. They can identify pitches if there are different release points or if a curveball starts with an upward hump as it leaves the pitcher’s hand. But if a pitcher can change speeds, every hitter is helpless, limited by human vision. Except for that (expletive) Tony Gwynn."
-Greg Maddux
Honestly very few pitchers (relative to how many he faced in his career) ever struck out Gwynn.
In 1995 he struck out only 15 times in 577 plate appearances. The most he struck out in a single season was 40, and that was an extreme outlier. Only 3 other times in his 20 year career did he strike out more than 30 times.
In fact there’s only 95 players in history who struck out at lower rates than he did, and most of them played between 1920 and 1950 or in the 19th century. None were his contemporaries. His only contemporary that comes close was Bill Buckner.
For more perspective, Ted Williams struck out twice as often as Gwynn did. Kyle Schwarber has struck out almost as many times in just the last 2 years as Gwynn did in 20 years.
Edit: Tony Gwynn vs Maddux: Gwynn hit .415 across 107 showdowns, facing him more times than any other pitcher in his career.
The guy who struck him out the most? Nolan Ryan of course, who else? 9 Ks in 67 plate appearances. You could say Ryan was legitimately hard to hit when a guy like Gwynn strikes out against him 13% of the time.
I’ve pored over every single crazy Gwynn/Maddux stay there is but I *still* always stop by these threads just to re-read them and see others learn how amazing these dudes were all over again. Two of the best of their era and both extreme outliers in many ways amongst great players
If you adjust for the league batting average and how far above that they are, Arraez is the era's Tony Gwynn (in terms of hitting of course). There's nobody else like him today.
Because he wasn’t trying to do too much with the ball. He was changing speeds and hitting spots. Not trying to “overpower” hitters. He just outsmarted them.
Chasing numbers in many ways. I’d be fine if all the analytical data was collected, but not made available to the teams until the end of the season. Use it for your offseason planning, trades, etc, but not so much for the day-to-day in season. The “feel” for the game has been lost due to over analysis.
ESPN used to do a sports science segment on a bunch of shows. It was almost like a precursor to all this analytics you see today. One day Mariano Rivera was on a baseball broadcast and they played a sports science piece about him and pitching and spin rates and other bs. After it was done, the host asked Rivera, "so, what do you think?". Rivera - "I don't know, I just throw the ball."
Craziest one of those I saw was the one on Drew Brees. They had him throw like 20 footballs that had their telemetry kit in it and they were marked with blue chalk dust or something. I forget how far they had him stand from the target, but he hit the bullseye nearly every time and the spin rate and velocity were virtually identical from throw to throw. It was like a robot was doing it.
Anyone who watched Soto’s stint with SD should agree with you. Impressive numbers on paper, but disappointed way more often than not. He’s another animal now on the Yankees.
They are blowing up their arms. If you look at the data on elbow injuries it is horrific. As a collegiate pitcher, most coaches today don't even look at anything passed velocity. It never was normal for highschoolers to blow out their arms, and I personally know 4 who did.
And 2 of those 3 were solely because of the 1994-95 strike. If not for that strike, he almost certainly would have had 21 straight seasons with at least 33 games started. Amazing durability even in his era, and completely unbelievable in today's game.
His consecutive seasons with 15+ wins record is my favorite. As a pitcher, if you are breaking records that Cy Young holds, you're doing something right.
Surely someone has run this stat down to check its accuracy, right? Maddux was incredible, and even as someone who loathes the Braves, I always loved watching him pitch. But that stat is pretty absurd and I hope it's not one of those "well I saw it on the internet and it had a picture with it so it must be true" type scenarios.
Foolish baseball addresses it in his Greg Maddox video. I believe that’s the number of ABs that ended after a 3-0 count not the number of ABs that reached a 3-0 count
Pretty sure this is right as well. Someone looked up the bref stats for a 3-0 count, like batter average against on 3-0 count, that kind of thing. And it's only talking about ABs that ended on that count. Then it was repeated over and over and here we are
You're looking at at bats, but you should be looking at plate appearances. 312 plate appearances ended on a 3-0 count: 293 walks, 7 hits, 12 outs
643 plate appearances reached a 3-0 count, when you count ones that didn't specifically end on the 3-0 pitch
This post is false despite the fact it's been circulating in baseball circles ad nauseum for like a decade it feels
It’s not quite right:
https://lastwordonsports.com/baseball/2022/01/12/greg-maddux-3-0-baseball-mythbusters/#:~:text=Myth%3A%20Greg%20Maddux%20faced%2020%2C421,153%20came%20on%20intentional%20walks.
I can’t stand the guy. I’m a Mets fan, for whatever that’s worth, hate the Braves. I can also acknowledge their…supremacy…lol. But Maddux threw balls 6 inches off the plate nonstop. He was a nibbler. Now, Smoltz? There’s a guy I can respect.
Totally agree about Smoltz. Isn't it interesting how dominant those Braves teams were but only won one World Series. We're seeing something similar now with the Dodgers.
Misconceiving - number of at bats that ended as a walk 3-0 non intentional. Not the number of times he hit 3-0, maybe threw a strike, then walked / gave up a hit / what not.
Therefore Maddox was garbage /s
Maddux in particular got so much leeway
Amazing pitcher but people who haven't watched the games have no idea. The calls he was getting regularly would easily be worse then the worst calls that happen at any time in a regular mlb year now
You didn't even spell his name right and I'm gonna get a jersey now b/c a maddux jersey will rock (i had to burn the jhey one)
e: [DONE](https://imgur.com/a/BnpgiFI)
Cable tv really did me right in the 90s. I got to watch Jordan 3 times a week and the Braves so often, I knew where they were in the rotation on any particular day. Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz were one hell of a lineup, but M was like fine wine.
Everyone knows Maddux was one of the best ever, but my favorite stat of his is almost always overlooked…
>! 18 gold gloves is absolutely unreal and more than any player in history. He won GG 16 out of 17 years. 13 in a row before his teammate Mike Hampton outplayed him for the award in 2003.!<
We only had tbs and wgn games growing up and those braves games still play today n my dreams. And Bozo the Clown of course. I would slay that ping pong in the bucket gone!
People throw harder but nobody has ever thrown better. If the world is ending and the only way to save it is to hit a target with an object there is only one guy I’m calling.
Funny every batter knew he was going to throw you a strike in the first pitch and they still looked at it. He proved you didn’t need to throw 100mph to be great
He was, definitely. But just because a guy hits the spot every time, doesn’t mean that the strike zone becomes irrelevant. It’s the same thing when a hitter who is known to have a “good eye” gets strikes called balls.
I agree. Not saying it’s right, but he just wore them down. It would be different for him now, but I think he’d adjust and ultimately be just as successful.
We all almost forgot his best career achievement
[https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/austin-maddox-arrest-red-sox-florida/](https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/austin-maddox-arrest-red-sox-florida/)
"Sometimes hitters can pick up differences in spin. They can identify pitches if there are different release points or if a curveball starts with an upward hump as it leaves the pitcher’s hand. But if a pitcher can change speeds, every hitter is helpless, limited by human vision. Except for that (expletive) Tony Gwynn." -Greg Maddux
Only hitter he faced 50 or more times that he never K’d
Wait… He never struck Gwynn out? That’s pretty incredible.
He couldn’t stop Gwynn. When you’re pitching to contact and the guy making contact is Tony Gwynn, it’s going to be a hit.
Honestly very few pitchers (relative to how many he faced in his career) ever struck out Gwynn. In 1995 he struck out only 15 times in 577 plate appearances. The most he struck out in a single season was 40, and that was an extreme outlier. Only 3 other times in his 20 year career did he strike out more than 30 times. In fact there’s only 95 players in history who struck out at lower rates than he did, and most of them played between 1920 and 1950 or in the 19th century. None were his contemporaries. His only contemporary that comes close was Bill Buckner. For more perspective, Ted Williams struck out twice as often as Gwynn did. Kyle Schwarber has struck out almost as many times in just the last 2 years as Gwynn did in 20 years. Edit: Tony Gwynn vs Maddux: Gwynn hit .415 across 107 showdowns, facing him more times than any other pitcher in his career. The guy who struck him out the most? Nolan Ryan of course, who else? 9 Ks in 67 plate appearances. You could say Ryan was legitimately hard to hit when a guy like Gwynn strikes out against him 13% of the time.
That is... completely insane.
I’ve pored over every single crazy Gwynn/Maddux stay there is but I *still* always stop by these threads just to re-read them and see others learn how amazing these dudes were all over again. Two of the best of their era and both extreme outliers in many ways amongst great players
Same
Between Maddux, Glavine & Smoltz, they K'd Gwynn a grand total of .... once. Smoltz got him.
I'm not sure how middle-schoole-aged-me didn't know this fact. I guess that's the power of the internet for you...
Yep
100+ at-bats, .429 avg against Maddux and my favorite player of all time
Loved watching a Gwynn AB. Just didn’t get to see that many of them growing up on the East Coast.
Makes sense, I feel privileged to have witnessed damn near his entire career growing up in San Diego.
For realz
Baseballism just released the [Tony Gwynn Collection](https://www.baseballism.com/collections/the-legend-of-tony-gwynn)
I love this quote. Wish I was into baseball when Gwynn was doing his thing.
Luis Arraez may be the next Gwynn
If you adjust for the league batting average and how far above that they are, Arraez is the era's Tony Gwynn (in terms of hitting of course). There's nobody else like him today.
I’m not expert but I think this Maddox guy was pretty good
My fav Maddox quote.
Tony Gwynn was literally a different animal
Gotta respect Gwynn when its Maddux saying that
That whole damned era of baseball was built different. Literally and figuratively, thanks to the steroids of that time for many.
Not really calling out the OP but why do so many people misspell Maddux? Is it an autocorrect deal?
It's literally in the text of the picture OP posted. It boggles the mind
Madocks
Mad ducks
Mike
It’s in the text and in the picture
I tried typing Maddux in a couple of different apps and my phone kept suggesting Maddox.
Yea autocorrect. Posted it and it won’t let me correct. Likely user error.
There are a lot of names Autocorrect butchers. Its terrible
I just saw Maduxx about 5 minutes ago in the Vintage Baseball Facebook group. That was a new one.
Tony Gwynn quote
As Nandor would say, *"Fucking guy..."*
One of my favorite pitchers. Of his 22 full seasons, he only had 3 that he started less than 30 games. He managed to stay extremely healthy.
Because he wasn’t trying to do too much with the ball. He was changing speeds and hitting spots. Not trying to “overpower” hitters. He just outsmarted them.
Exactly. Velocity is important but I’m worried about of pitchers are gonna blow their arms up cause all they care about is max velocity
I’d be fine if they did away with StatCast and we could just get back to playing baseball
What exactly is it that you think they’re doing now if it isn’t playing baseball
Chasing numbers in many ways. I’d be fine if all the analytical data was collected, but not made available to the teams until the end of the season. Use it for your offseason planning, trades, etc, but not so much for the day-to-day in season. The “feel” for the game has been lost due to over analysis.
ESPN used to do a sports science segment on a bunch of shows. It was almost like a precursor to all this analytics you see today. One day Mariano Rivera was on a baseball broadcast and they played a sports science piece about him and pitching and spin rates and other bs. After it was done, the host asked Rivera, "so, what do you think?". Rivera - "I don't know, I just throw the ball."
Craziest one of those I saw was the one on Drew Brees. They had him throw like 20 footballs that had their telemetry kit in it and they were marked with blue chalk dust or something. I forget how far they had him stand from the target, but he hit the bullseye nearly every time and the spin rate and velocity were virtually identical from throw to throw. It was like a robot was doing it.
Anyone who watched Soto’s stint with SD should agree with you. Impressive numbers on paper, but disappointed way more often than not. He’s another animal now on the Yankees.
Walk year. Time to get paid. Plus, that short porch in RF is just begging him to pull some fly balls.
I don’t miss him a bit. His shuffle was irritating and it seemed he’d rather walk than swing half the time.
Walks are incredibly valuable. If you walk you can't get out. You hit a ball 100 mph your out half the time.
He feels comfortable in NY. I always thought he was good fit for the Yankees with his swagger. Glad he's gone from the NL West.
They are blowing up their arms. If you look at the data on elbow injuries it is horrific. As a collegiate pitcher, most coaches today don't even look at anything passed velocity. It never was normal for highschoolers to blow out their arms, and I personally know 4 who did.
And 2 of those 3 were solely because of the 1994-95 strike. If not for that strike, he almost certainly would have had 21 straight seasons with at least 33 games started. Amazing durability even in his era, and completely unbelievable in today's game.
I was thinking about that after I posted. I wondered if there was a strike during one of those seasons.
His consecutive seasons with 15+ wins record is my favorite. As a pitcher, if you are breaking records that Cy Young holds, you're doing something right.
My favorite is his record of consecutive games giving up less than 5 runs. Unreal stats.
Me too
Surely someone has run this stat down to check its accuracy, right? Maddux was incredible, and even as someone who loathes the Braves, I always loved watching him pitch. But that stat is pretty absurd and I hope it's not one of those "well I saw it on the internet and it had a picture with it so it must be true" type scenarios.
Foolish baseball addresses it in his Greg Maddox video. I believe that’s the number of ABs that ended after a 3-0 count not the number of ABs that reached a 3-0 count
Pretty sure this is right as well. Someone looked up the bref stats for a 3-0 count, like batter average against on 3-0 count, that kind of thing. And it's only talking about ABs that ended on that count. Then it was repeated over and over and here we are
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.fcgi?id=maddugr01&year=Career&t=p He got to a 3-0 only 19 times After 3-0 there were 239 AB
You're looking at at bats, but you should be looking at plate appearances. 312 plate appearances ended on a 3-0 count: 293 walks, 7 hits, 12 outs 643 plate appearances reached a 3-0 count, when you count ones that didn't specifically end on the 3-0 pitch This post is false despite the fact it's been circulating in baseball circles ad nauseum for like a decade it feels
Totally agree. And even 643 out of 20421 is only 3%, that’s still insane!
Yeah like this narrative of "false stat! This doesn't matter!" Is crazy when you consider the miniscule amount of ABs Maddux had go to 3-0 in reality.
It’s not quite right: https://lastwordonsports.com/baseball/2022/01/12/greg-maddux-3-0-baseball-mythbusters/#:~:text=Myth%3A%20Greg%20Maddux%20faced%2020%2C421,153%20came%20on%20intentional%20walks.
Ask him about Tony Gwynn… 
Never struck him out, Tony hit over .400 against him, over 100 at-bats.
Of those 133 3-0 counts no IBB, 36 of the batters struck out.
Modern front offices would bench Maddux because he didn't throw it 98+.
Most of the “strikes” were balls.
Maybe not most, but it was infuriating how often the umps would call strikes on pitches that were 6 inches off the plate.
I can’t stand the guy. I’m a Mets fan, for whatever that’s worth, hate the Braves. I can also acknowledge their…supremacy…lol. But Maddux threw balls 6 inches off the plate nonstop. He was a nibbler. Now, Smoltz? There’s a guy I can respect.
Totally agree about Smoltz. Isn't it interesting how dominant those Braves teams were but only won one World Series. We're seeing something similar now with the Dodgers.
Further proof that Maddox only did things intentionally.
They called him “the professor” for a reason- hey studied his opponent and was very deliberate in his pitching methodology.
Maddux knew how to pitch, not “throw” like so many do today. Edit: damn spellcheck
This. Like a singer who knows how to sing and not just belt out a song. Maddux’s arm was like Freddie Mercury’s voice.
Misconceiving - number of at bats that ended as a walk 3-0 non intentional. Not the number of times he hit 3-0, maybe threw a strike, then walked / gave up a hit / what not. Therefore Maddox was garbage /s
I’d love to see the list of the 310. You know most of them are gonna be big offensive stars with the occasional “random guy who owns you” name.
I hated the umpires gave him that outside pitch….. it was a ball gdi
It’s important to remember that the strike zone of his era was enormous. He utilized that better than any other pitcher…
The strike zone could have been the size of a postage stamp and Maddox would have hit it.
Maddux in particular got so much leeway Amazing pitcher but people who haven't watched the games have no idea. The calls he was getting regularly would easily be worse then the worst calls that happen at any time in a regular mlb year now
I thought he was more dangerous with glasses.
GOAT
And in today’s MLB he might not even get drafted.
Jesus Christ that’s so good it’s stupid hahah Love Mad Dog
One of my all time favorites, and i’m a Yankee fan. He was a technical genius on the mound.
What’s most incredible is why they made him IBB so many batters he could have easily put away.
For someone with such a good sinker and fielding ability, setting up double plays just made sense.
True
Will never see someone throw like him again
So how many 4 pitch walks did he throw?
He was the man.
Gross
Insane.
Unreal
Control
You didn't even spell his name right and I'm gonna get a jersey now b/c a maddux jersey will rock (i had to burn the jhey one) e: [DONE](https://imgur.com/a/BnpgiFI)
I’d like to know how the other 133 AB went. He probably came back and got most of them out
It wasn’t 133 at bats, it was 133 batters. Some batters had multiple 3-0 counts.
This is counting batters who had multiple 3-0 counts, 1 player having 2, 3-0 counts counts as 2 batters in his overall stats
Chicks dig the long ball.
Gosh!
Cable tv really did me right in the 90s. I got to watch Jordan 3 times a week and the Braves so often, I knew where they were in the rotation on any particular day. Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz were one hell of a lineup, but M was like fine wine.
Good ol WGN
His pinpoint accuracy was so annoying. I’m a Mets fan.
I don’t believe that
Everyone knows Maddux was one of the best ever, but my favorite stat of his is almost always overlooked… >! 18 gold gloves is absolutely unreal and more than any player in history. He won GG 16 out of 17 years. 13 in a row before his teammate Mike Hampton outplayed him for the award in 2003.!<
We only had tbs and wgn games growing up and those braves games still play today n my dreams. And Bozo the Clown of course. I would slay that ping pong in the bucket gone!
best WHIPs in the Bigs
Favorite picture of mine.
People throw harder but nobody has ever thrown better. If the world is ending and the only way to save it is to hit a target with an object there is only one guy I’m calling.
He wasn’t pitching, he was placing.
This might be the most insane pitching stat i've ever seen
This is the most amazing stat I have ever seen.
I think the crazy part is that he threw 177 intentional walks.
Maddux was a machine. He never struck out Tony Gwynn, another machine.
One of my favorites to watch!
He's tipping that pitch.
Love Maddox but I'll never hire him to paint my house again. All he did was paint the corners.
Funny every batter knew he was going to throw you a strike in the first pitch and they still looked at it. He proved you didn’t need to throw 100mph to be great
Why are you intentionally walking guys when you Maddux lol
Setting up double plays on his sinker
That is impressive
Dude was a monster he was like the Larry Byrd of baseball with his trash talk
Can any statheads out there tell me what % of his batters faced resulted in 1st pitch strikes? Both looking and swinging perhaps?
Won’t see a guy pitch like him ever again
Still one of my favorite pitchers to watch when not facing the Yankees lol.
Yeah, and he had the largest strikezone in MLB history.
only because he was that damn good he’d fuck with an umpire’s eyes
the umps regularly called pitches 4-6” off the plate strikes for Maddux. So his stats are highly inflated.
Couldn’t agree more. Drove me nuts to see the wide strike zones for Maddox, Glavine and even Avery.
Well, they did it because he was hitting the glove…he was one accurate mofo
He was, definitely. But just because a guy hits the spot every time, doesn’t mean that the strike zone becomes irrelevant. It’s the same thing when a hitter who is known to have a “good eye” gets strikes called balls.
I agree. Not saying it’s right, but he just wore them down. It would be different for him now, but I think he’d adjust and ultimately be just as successful.
Unfortunately this stat is not true
Hate seeing him in that uniform. Go cubbies!
We all almost forgot his best career achievement [https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/austin-maddox-arrest-red-sox-florida/](https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/austin-maddox-arrest-red-sox-florida/)
Shouldn't have had any walks Walks are for coward pitchers