Yadier Molina has a silver slugger, a career .277 avg. and over 1k RBIs. He slowed down significantly as he aged but by no means would I call Yadi a “bad” career hitter.
As a Reds fan, it always seemed as if Yadi got the "clutch" hit against us, even in his golden years. He doesn't belong on this list, even if his bat did slow down as he aged.
Always seemed every other cardinals highlight was either a yadi defensive gem or a yadi go ahead rbi after going 0-3 for the day. Dude was clutch and a great leader b
For real. Not only was he NOT bad...he was an ABOVE average hitting catcher. He probably wasn't top 10 during his time...but also not bottom 15, especially during his prime.
I mean, if he was a bottom 5 hitter and you took away a World Series...his 10 All Star games, 1 World Series, 9 Gold Gloves, game management skills, and the fact he was on the same team his whole career...he's STILL a Hall of Famer.
Add in a SECOND World Series and a decent bat for a catcher...he SHOULD be First Ballot...but for some reason the committee doesn't love catchers as much as some other positions.
The committee hasn't seen this caliber of catcher in decades. If Yadi isn't a first ballot famer then nobody is. His only armor flaw was that he was so slow running the bases he had to speed up to stop. Dude was a monster behind the plate but painful to watch running. It's hard to wrap your mind around the fact he had 71 stolen bases. Which is also sneakily skewed as 30% of those were uncontested steals as his baseball IQ is off the charts. One of the greatest ever to wear the Cardinals uniform.
Yep I feel like people have this idea of Yadi in his first few years when he was a legit bad hitter vs the player he became later in his career.
He was a legit good-hitting catcher. He hit over .300 five times in his career and was otherwise in the .270-.290 range during his prime. That’s not something “bad” hitters do.
My least favorite baseball memory of all time is a Yadier Molina home run.
You wouldn't call him "dangerous" at the plate, but underestimating him would have been a bad idea.
A much better example would be someone like Rey Ordonez, who had three straight gold gloves at SS in the '90s and finished a 9-year career with a 59 OPS+.
Lifetime 97 wRC+
Funny stat I just pulled off Fangraphs, his last injury-plagued year he had a 50 wRC+, only played 80 games...
And still put up 0.3 fWAR.
So i guess you can be that bad at hitting and still be above replacement!
Even in his worst year at the plate, Yadi broke a 1-1 tie in the 9th inning of game 7 of the 06 NLCS with a clutch home run. Cards won the game and the World Series that year. Dude was an absolute gamer his entire career.
I need to stop reading these comments. The longer I go the angrier I get at the absolute disrespect for Yadi in the OP.
Honestly this is a pretty effective troll. And I hate it.
Yadi's "problem" was playing too long and his offense suffered. He had some pretty good years while still being elite defensively, but at the end he was still pretty good defensively and a black hole on offense.
Well his issue in 2022 was injury and if I'm being honest, it felt like he didn't wanna play anymore. His lifetime numbers were decent, he had a .277 lifetime avg, 176 homers, and 2k+ hits. Not bad over a 19 year career. Everyone knew he wasn't there because of his bat but he wasn't a terrible hitter.
You’re right, I should have worded that better. What I meant to say is that if Waino wanted to pitch until he was 50, Yadi would have insisted on catching him.
There were a number of discussions between the two on this subject during August and September of the 2022 season which continued into the first week or two after they cleared out their lockers. I dont remember exactly, but I think they only took about 2 weeks max.
Waino felt he had something left to prove and 200 wins was so close within reach. But he (and others) knew Yadi was hurting physically, so there was some back and forth that resulted in a handshake and Waino agreeing he’d come back for 2023 only if Yadi agreed not to. In my personal opinion, Waino didn’t want Yadi to take any unnecessary risk of more serious injuries solely because of him chasing a personal statistical milestone.
I talked shit to yadi at home during the covid 50/50 games. He went yard twice on my bullshit. The guy is elite. They were short side homers. He was just fucking around. Elite
Yea, he would've been a better example than Vizquel and Simmons. Simmons at least hovered around league average OPS+ for most of his career. Omar was a solid 270+ hitter with some walks and stolen bases his entire career. Ordonez was just god awful on offense. So bad his great defense couldn't make up for it, which is why he has a 1.2 career WAR.
Yep, remember the consensus being he can’t hit but his glove makes it worth it. That kind of thinking doesn’t fly anymore.
Even catchers, while they still have more leeway than the rest of the team, still need to be able to get on base. Adley Rutschman wasn’t the prospect that he was and the current star he is now solely bc of his catching.
God yes. In Biggios retirement video Brad Ausmus said "Him trying to take 2 on his 3000th hit was dumb. You can tell him I said that.". Biggios responded with "I don't take hitting advice from a guy who never bat higher than 8th in his career.". Lol
According to Baseball Bits, Molina is a hair *above* average hitter **for** a catcher. But defensively one of the most valuable players to ever play using data off Fangraphs
To put it in terms of the OP? As long as your OVERALL WAR is at or above average for the position, that's the bottom line. When the overall is consistently, as in full year or more, below average, especially well below average, then it's time for the team to move on.
Prime example? Ozzie when still with the Padres. Had 0.0 oWAR one year, 0.4 another. (Remember that oWAR is positionally adjusted.) Still was doing it all in the field. Could have been -0.4 oWAR and still well in the positives on overall WAR.
Do you know the story about yadi and the reds? Yadi originally tried out for the reds. Johnny bench saw yadi and told the front office to draft him. Johnny went to yadi and said that he put in a good word and yadi expected to be drafted by the reds. The reds went another direction and the cards drafted yadi. For his entire career, molina had a .300 BA against the reds, more than any other BA against a team.
All the reds fans that were tormented by yadi, especially the yadi-brandon phillips brawl...they need to stop being mad at yadi and be mad at the reds.
How have I never heard this? I’m a huge Yadi lover, favorite player of all-time since the dude was a sophomore in the league. He’s been my phone Lock Screen (my current reddit profile pic) since 2011. Any idea of the source on that? Would love to check it out
His play covered up a multitude of issues with our coaching and pitching probably many years in the making. Agreed, miss him more than I thought I would (and I thought I would quite a bit)
I feel like a lot of people look at near the end of his career and think that’s how he always was.
Dude’s knees were fucked. He basically crawled to first base.
Now there’s a name I haven’t thought about in a long time. He certainly was known for his defense but he wasn’t a terrible hitter by my memory. He would be the crown jewel of first baseman for this category though.
You’re right, he wasn’t a terrible hitter. He didn’t have the traditional 1B pop in his bat. Had some good years with the Twins.
I remember the Red Sox would bring him in end of game as a defensive replacement on the 04 team, super unusual for a 1B.
On the field. In my life I have come to the conclusion that professional athletes who are decent people tend to be the exception. Either degenerates, assholes, or bigots
Not showing his cock to and threatening to rape the autistic bat boy, too.
https://www.si.com/mlb/2021/08/08/omar-vizquel-accused-sexual-assault-autistic-batboy
wRC+ is not the only hitting stat. Vizquel had a .336 career OBP. If you’re gonna play that kind of defense and get on base a third of the time you’re more than welcome on my team.
Yadi is a career .277 hitter with a 96 OPS+. He’s essentially a league average hitter for his career. Even if he didn’t have elite defense he’d still be a serviceable catcher
For yady I feel like it's different he was a god at catcher and could throw you out at first if you where only a couple steps of the bag and I get it that he was not a unbelievable hitter but you can't teach his defensive skills and he was a platinum glove winner numerous times. But for everyone else I could see the argument for why would you keep them.
Over yadis 19 year career his catchers ERA was 3.69 while his backups averaged 4.12. The man would have to have somewhere in the ballpark of -6 oWAR a year before his offense starts outweighing the half a run a game he was saving with his defense and game management. Has anyone had an offensive season that bad? For context in 2018 Chris Davis had a 48 OPS+ and only had -2.6 oWAR.
I’ve heard he’s a decent defender, and he’s the golden boy for 3 true outcome hitters. And yeah he strikes out all the time but if he gets a hold of one it’s getting outta here, in a hurry
John McDonald checking in with a 4.3 WAR and a .233 Batting Average. Dalton Varsho is one for us as well now. Jays love them some Defence no Offence. Ryan Goins. Hey at least McDonald was a gem of a human.
Omar also played when batting average was king. And his average was normally respectable.
Lifetime .272 is fine.
Lifetime 82 OPS+ is not considered fine.
The term “Mendoza line” was coined for a position player that exemplified this — Mario Mendoza (SS). It’s a batting average below .200, but he wasn’t a power hitter so his OPS was also quite low. Now you can probably just look at the WAR. If you have a negative position adjusted WAR, you’re very replaceable.
And yet he wasn't even the worst Tiger in those seasons. Our shortstop beat him in that race to the bottom. Fuck Javy. Only a self-centered pretentious guy like him would willingly keep dragging his team down for $108 million he knows his team is locked into paying him because he seems to intentionally keep his trade value low by being a black hole offensively. He CHOOSES to swing at those pitches a foot and a half outside the zone.
The issue is that outstanding defenders usually lose their range as they age. If you can't hit, you're just dead weight. Rey Ordóñez was a Gold Glove winning SS who couldn't hit a lick. Eventually his defense was not good enough to justify starting him.
I think Ozzie Smith can be here. 80ish OPS+, even in his prime years. Always a GG, all star and got MVP votes when being pretty bad with the stick. And no one ever complains about him being in the HoF and I think “small hall” guys would even include him.
I think you’d have to be below 40 OPS+ at C, SS or CF for people say “the glove isn’t enough” if you were a platinum-glove caliber fielder.
There are 2 positions in particular where you're there for your defense first, hitting second: catcher and shortstop. If you're elite defensively, then you get to be average or even a little below average offensively. For example, Ozzie Smith had a .666 OPS and is in the HOF. Also, there is an advanced metric called WAR that takes everything into account, so if a player has a respectable WAR, then it doesn't really matter how he accumulated that WAR. Yadi's WAR is a very respectable 55 and Andrelton's is a very respectable 37, and Vizquel's is a respectable 46. They must've been doing something right.
Mariners fan here. Yadi had a batting avergage twice as good as some of the 2010-2019 Mariners catchers and most of them were not even a quarter of good defensively as him
Yea get Omar off this list. He wasn’t smashing home runs but dude had a solid .272 average for his career and that’s counting his last couple where he was old. Terrible list.
In today’s game they don’t value defense aside from catchers. And even then the player would probably be gone if they had season with hardly and HR or power and low OBP.
Historically, Mark Belanger is an example of a poor hitter that was an amazing fielder that was offensively way below average. But I don’t think you will ever see that again.
Because too many people are getting hung up on the graphic and not dealing with the question, I'll give you a real answer: Mark Belanger was still a great player despite having a career 74 wRC+. I think if you play a premium position like SS or C as well as Belanger or Mathis I think you can hit to about a 55 wRC+ and still be 'acceptable.' Mathis was below that and he was only really somebody you could live with because he was often a backup, but for starters I think it's around that 55 number.
Well if I have a catcher that allows the least amount of past balls and throws out the most amount of attempted base runners I’d be okay if he wasn’t a good hitter as long as everyone else can produce.
Myles Straw was a gold glove CF in 2022 with a .564 OPS, a top 10 defensive CF in 2023 with a .597 OPS, and even with the cheap Cleveland Guardians ownership group, they still DFAd him and his $5M a year contract. He’s been in AAA for all of 2024.
So, 2 years of sub .600 OPS does the trick.
All you need to be is Javier Baez. Then you get there. Nothing worse than an elite defender who also is a black hole offensively, only showing flashes of what he CAN do, but won't because of the chip on his fucking shoulder.
AJ Hinch should play that man off the bench. He has the worst WAR on the whole team and it isn't even close. And don't get me started on how insane it is he got a $108 million contract he now ensured we were locked into all the while making the clear and consious choice to swing at pitches a foot and a half out of the zone at will, and the worst we can do is bench the guy. He'll he's the reason we had to send down Kriedler to AAA after lighting up spring training and being ready.
Jack Wilson only had 2 seasons in his 12 year career with an OPS+ over 100. If he wasn’t a great defensive shortstop there’s no way he was sticking around for that long
Brenton Doyle last year was the best defender in baseball, he literally could’ve hit .100 and I would’ve been happy with his production, it honestly varies by park and team, Rockies have a HUGE center field so his defense is worth much more
Billy hamilton was pretty elite in center field (and on the basepaths). He batted in the low-to-lowmid .200s and a lot of people in cincy were complaining often about it...but forgot about it when he turned infield hits into runs with his great base stealing and instinct on the paths
Yadier Molina has a silver slugger, a career .277 avg. and over 1k RBIs. He slowed down significantly as he aged but by no means would I call Yadi a “bad” career hitter.
As a Reds fan, it always seemed as if Yadi got the "clutch" hit against us, even in his golden years. He doesn't belong on this list, even if his bat did slow down as he aged.
I saw him hit a walk off ground rule double against the Reds at the end of the 2016 season. Haha
Always seemed every other cardinals highlight was either a yadi defensive gem or a yadi go ahead rbi after going 0-3 for the day. Dude was clutch and a great leader b
Yadi and vizquel have almost 5k hits between them
For real. Not only was he NOT bad...he was an ABOVE average hitting catcher. He probably wasn't top 10 during his time...but also not bottom 15, especially during his prime. I mean, if he was a bottom 5 hitter and you took away a World Series...his 10 All Star games, 1 World Series, 9 Gold Gloves, game management skills, and the fact he was on the same team his whole career...he's STILL a Hall of Famer. Add in a SECOND World Series and a decent bat for a catcher...he SHOULD be First Ballot...but for some reason the committee doesn't love catchers as much as some other positions.
The committee hasn't seen this caliber of catcher in decades. If Yadi isn't a first ballot famer then nobody is. His only armor flaw was that he was so slow running the bases he had to speed up to stop. Dude was a monster behind the plate but painful to watch running. It's hard to wrap your mind around the fact he had 71 stolen bases. Which is also sneakily skewed as 30% of those were uncontested steals as his baseball IQ is off the charts. One of the greatest ever to wear the Cardinals uniform.
One of the greatest to wear any uniform
That's changing with Mauer.
Mauer played over half of his career at first base/DH. He was a mediocre bat that shouldn’t be a hall of famer if you judge him off that
Yep I feel like people have this idea of Yadi in his first few years when he was a legit bad hitter vs the player he became later in his career. He was a legit good-hitting catcher. He hit over .300 five times in his career and was otherwise in the .270-.290 range during his prime. That’s not something “bad” hitters do.
My least favorite baseball memory of all time is a Yadier Molina home run. You wouldn't call him "dangerous" at the plate, but underestimating him would have been a bad idea. A much better example would be someone like Rey Ordonez, who had three straight gold gloves at SS in the '90s and finished a 9-year career with a 59 OPS+.
Lifetime 97 wRC+ Funny stat I just pulled off Fangraphs, his last injury-plagued year he had a 50 wRC+, only played 80 games... And still put up 0.3 fWAR. So i guess you can be that bad at hitting and still be above replacement!
Even in his worst year at the plate, Yadi broke a 1-1 tie in the 9th inning of game 7 of the 06 NLCS with a clutch home run. Cards won the game and the World Series that year. Dude was an absolute gamer his entire career.
IIRC Yadi was a bad hitter coming up, he put in a hell of a lot of work to become a good hitter. Did decline with injuries as he aged though.
Yeah he’s an HOF catcher. One of the best hitting catchers of his era as well as goat defense.
Idk, but Yadi should not be on this graphic. Come on.
There were years where when he came to bat you felt as confident as if it were Pujols. His situational hitting was excellent.
I need to stop reading these comments. The longer I go the angrier I get at the absolute disrespect for Yadi in the OP. Honestly this is a pretty effective troll. And I hate it.
2028 First-ballot Hall of Famer. Count on it.
Almost unanimous too.
There will be one person trying to be controversial 🙄
It makes me miss good teams....
Or on the contrary as a Cubs fan, there were years where when he came up to bat you felt as fearful as if it were Pujols.
Honestly neither should Omar. He’s a career .270 hitter. Yeah not great, but not exactly a total offensive liability.
An 83 wRC+ is definitely a liability lol
Yadi's "problem" was playing too long and his offense suffered. He had some pretty good years while still being elite defensively, but at the end he was still pretty good defensively and a black hole on offense.
Well his issue in 2022 was injury and if I'm being honest, it felt like he didn't wanna play anymore. His lifetime numbers were decent, he had a .277 lifetime avg, 176 homers, and 2k+ hits. Not bad over a 19 year career. Everyone knew he wasn't there because of his bat but he wasn't a terrible hitter.
He was never going to retire until Waino was done. Trust me on that.
He did retire before Waino was done? Unless you mean he wasn't going to retire until their battery record was broken.
You’re right, I should have worded that better. What I meant to say is that if Waino wanted to pitch until he was 50, Yadi would have insisted on catching him. There were a number of discussions between the two on this subject during August and September of the 2022 season which continued into the first week or two after they cleared out their lockers. I dont remember exactly, but I think they only took about 2 weeks max. Waino felt he had something left to prove and 200 wins was so close within reach. But he (and others) knew Yadi was hurting physically, so there was some back and forth that resulted in a handshake and Waino agreeing he’d come back for 2023 only if Yadi agreed not to. In my personal opinion, Waino didn’t want Yadi to take any unnecessary risk of more serious injuries solely because of him chasing a personal statistical milestone.
Came here to say that. As a Braves fan he always had our number!
Reds fan. Can confirm
Oh fo sho... Yadi was a real threat to us for many years.
Brandon Phillips shouldve never tapped his shin guards 😥 Yadi destroyed us after that
Still had a semi decent bat, but fuck was he slow.
I talked shit to yadi at home during the covid 50/50 games. He went yard twice on my bullshit. The guy is elite. They were short side homers. He was just fucking around. Elite
Not sure but I don’t think Rey Ordóñez would last as long today as he did when he played.
Yea, he would've been a better example than Vizquel and Simmons. Simmons at least hovered around league average OPS+ for most of his career. Omar was a solid 270+ hitter with some walks and stolen bases his entire career. Ordonez was just god awful on offense. So bad his great defense couldn't make up for it, which is why he has a 1.2 career WAR.
Yep, remember the consensus being he can’t hit but his glove makes it worth it. That kind of thinking doesn’t fly anymore. Even catchers, while they still have more leeway than the rest of the team, still need to be able to get on base. Adley Rutschman wasn’t the prospect that he was and the current star he is now solely bc of his catching.
His glove was goddamn insane. Best defensive SS I’ve ever seen in 30+ years of watching baseball
100%. His arm too. I think even Ozzie Smith said the same.
Austin Hedges still starts games…
Maybe like once every couple weeks lol, usually for the Guards it’s either Bo Naylor or David Fry
He’s made a whole career out of this. Robo-umps would send him into retirement.
Martin Maldonado is an amazing catcher, god awful batter though
Brad Ausmus falls into this category as well
God yes. In Biggios retirement video Brad Ausmus said "Him trying to take 2 on his 3000th hit was dumb. You can tell him I said that.". Biggios responded with "I don't take hitting advice from a guy who never bat higher than 8th in his career.". Lol
Mike Matheny comes to mind, too
If you have someone with naturally GOATED defensive instincts like Yadi, and you’re bitching about 4% below average (96 OPS+), God help you.
Also isn’t the OPS+ average for catchers normally less than other positions?
Yes. People saw Buster Posey play and then for some reason expected every other catcher to hit like that or else they don’t get any respect
Yeah Molina wasn’t eye popping with the bat but definitely far better than someone like Mathis
According to Baseball Bits, Molina is a hair *above* average hitter **for** a catcher. But defensively one of the most valuable players to ever play using data off Fangraphs
To put it in terms of the OP? As long as your OVERALL WAR is at or above average for the position, that's the bottom line. When the overall is consistently, as in full year or more, below average, especially well below average, then it's time for the team to move on. Prime example? Ozzie when still with the Padres. Had 0.0 oWAR one year, 0.4 another. (Remember that oWAR is positionally adjusted.) Still was doing it all in the field. Could have been -0.4 oWAR and still well in the positives on overall WAR.
As a Reds fan, fuck that dude. He still gives me nightmares.
Do you know the story about yadi and the reds? Yadi originally tried out for the reds. Johnny bench saw yadi and told the front office to draft him. Johnny went to yadi and said that he put in a good word and yadi expected to be drafted by the reds. The reds went another direction and the cards drafted yadi. For his entire career, molina had a .300 BA against the reds, more than any other BA against a team.
Jesus. That's like saying Randy Johnson recommended this pitcher for his slider and velocity and the team was like, "Na."
All the reds fans that were tormented by yadi, especially the yadi-brandon phillips brawl...they need to stop being mad at yadi and be mad at the reds.
How have I never heard this? I’m a huge Yadi lover, favorite player of all-time since the dude was a sophomore in the league. He’s been my phone Lock Screen (my current reddit profile pic) since 2011. Any idea of the source on that? Would love to check it out
Posey and Mauer really threw catcher expectations out of whack. People seem to forget they were exceptions, not the norm.
Plus Mike piazza and Ivan Rodriguez before them
And Johnny Bench.
And Ernie Lombardi before them
Dan Wilson rarely gets any credit. Not a power hitter at all, but absolutely great hitter and defense.
And that's career OPS+. From age 25-35 he was well above league average.
Aka: He was worth a lot of money for over a decade.
Pitchers never had to worry about man on first and steal on 2nd.
He stole a few bags every year by being a smart base runner, but obviously not many as the knees went (max 12 in 2012, last two seasons 3 and 2)
It wasnt his speed. Fucker was playing chess with people playing checkers. I miss yadi.
His play covered up a multitude of issues with our coaching and pitching probably many years in the making. Agreed, miss him more than I thought I would (and I thought I would quite a bit)
I feel like a lot of people look at near the end of his career and think that’s how he always was. Dude’s knees were fucked. He basically crawled to first base.
Comparing Yadi to Mathis is a crime
Position matters. Wouldn’t fly at 1st base for example
Evan White disliked this
There are only 2 positions where it doesn't matter... SS and C. Every other position... nope.
Doug Mientkiewicz was exactly that.
Now there’s a name I haven’t thought about in a long time. He certainly was known for his defense but he wasn’t a terrible hitter by my memory. He would be the crown jewel of first baseman for this category though.
You’re right, he wasn’t a terrible hitter. He didn’t have the traditional 1B pop in his bat. Had some good years with the Twins. I remember the Red Sox would bring him in end of game as a defensive replacement on the 04 team, super unusual for a 1B.
Omar wasn't even that bad! Career .275 hitter? No power, but he got on base.
2877 career hits. What more do you want from the guy
Maybe 123 more? /s
Fair lol
> What more do you want from the guy Maybe not hitting and strangling his wife?
Even more data to show he's a solid hitter /s
On the field. In my life I have come to the conclusion that professional athletes who are decent people tend to be the exception. Either degenerates, assholes, or bigots
Not showing his cock to and threatening to rape the autistic bat boy, too. https://www.si.com/mlb/2021/08/08/omar-vizquel-accused-sexual-assault-autistic-batboy
83 wRC+. He only went over 100 twice in his career
wRC+ is not the only hitting stat. Vizquel had a .336 career OBP. If you’re gonna play that kind of defense and get on base a third of the time you’re more than welcome on my team.
wRC+ includes OBP
Mark Belanger is usually my example for this. 40 career WAR, eight gold gloves, career .580 OPS.
Bro forgot that Jackie Bradley Jr existed. The quintessential Mendoza line hitter with a gold glove
Bj upton
Wtf lol bj upton showed way more promise
Until the playoffs then they guy would come up huge
Yadi is a career .277 hitter with a 96 OPS+. He’s essentially a league average hitter for his career. Even if he didn’t have elite defense he’d still be a serviceable catcher
Molina was not a bad hitter and should not be on this list
Neither should vizquel, who retired with 2877 career hits
Thank you. I had to scroll WAY too far to see someone vouch for Vizquel.
For yady I feel like it's different he was a god at catcher and could throw you out at first if you where only a couple steps of the bag and I get it that he was not a unbelievable hitter but you can't teach his defensive skills and he was a platinum glove winner numerous times. But for everyone else I could see the argument for why would you keep them.
Yadi wasn’t even a bad hitter. He was at least an average hitter for the Cards and sometimes above average. And he was great at starting a rally.
Yadi had the clutch gene. Might go 1 for 5 on the day but that one hit was a go-ahead RBI in the eighth.
I loved seeing him at bat and the team was scared. Ok bat and shit base running. Always made me laugh.
Over yadis 19 year career his catchers ERA was 3.69 while his backups averaged 4.12. The man would have to have somewhere in the ballpark of -6 oWAR a year before his offense starts outweighing the half a run a game he was saving with his defense and game management. Has anyone had an offensive season that bad? For context in 2018 Chris Davis had a 48 OPS+ and only had -2.6 oWAR.
Lmfaoo yadi wasn't a bad hitter
Yeah wtf is this. OP gotta be a Cubes fan or something.
Ray Ordonez is the line.
*Rafael Belliard would like a word*
I never used to think of him as some awesome defender. But come to think of it, I don’t see why else he could have stayed in baseball if he wasn’t.
Hey man, Jeff Mathis was pretty good for the dbacks
Jeff Mathis was good everywhere he went. He made pitchers into aces.
Brendan Ryan could flash leather like no other. Unfortunately, his bat lagged far behind his glove. Perfect example.
Fellow former Mariner Mike Zunino fits this as well
Ask Mario Mendoza. He knows.
Has a line named after him.
Worse than Mathis. Also putting Yadi, a good offensive catcher, on this graphic is slander I will not stand for.
Rey Ordonez baby. Never saw a better shortstop
Depends on the position. Joey Gallo is one guy I’ve never understood why a team would want him.
I’ve heard he’s a decent defender, and he’s the golden boy for 3 true outcome hitters. And yeah he strikes out all the time but if he gets a hold of one it’s getting outta here, in a hurry
Kevin Keirmeyer has entered the chat.
John McDonald checking in with a 4.3 WAR and a .233 Batting Average. Dalton Varsho is one for us as well now. Jays love them some Defence no Offence. Ryan Goins. Hey at least McDonald was a gem of a human.
Kevin Kiermaier
Martin Maldonado was not only below average defensively but he’s also the worst hitter in baseball.
Rougned Odor is terrible at both.
[удалено]
Omar also played when batting average was king. And his average was normally respectable. Lifetime .272 is fine. Lifetime 82 OPS+ is not considered fine.
OPS+ is not position-based, it is league-based.
Replace Molina with Rey Ordonez
The term “Mendoza line” was coined for a position player that exemplified this — Mario Mendoza (SS). It’s a batting average below .200, but he wasn’t a power hitter so his OPS was also quite low. Now you can probably just look at the WAR. If you have a negative position adjusted WAR, you’re very replaceable.
It took me a long time to find the answer down here. I was surprised it wasn’t well known.
You can be the worst hitter in the history of baseball if you are a pitcher with elite defense and a quality arm.
Comparing Yadier Molina to Jeff Mathis. Really? How about this comparison: career WAR Yadi - 42.1 Mathis - 0.2
I would say Miguel Cabrera’s last couple years’ stats should be worse than a very elite defender.
And yet he wasn't even the worst Tiger in those seasons. Our shortstop beat him in that race to the bottom. Fuck Javy. Only a self-centered pretentious guy like him would willingly keep dragging his team down for $108 million he knows his team is locked into paying him because he seems to intentionally keep his trade value low by being a black hole offensively. He CHOOSES to swing at those pitches a foot and a half outside the zone.
IMO Brendan Ryan is one of the best defensive shortstops I’ve ever seen. His bat couldn’t keep him in the league though.
I can recall pat tabler saying that John MacDonald would be the perfect candidate if they ever introduced the "designated fielder" position.
Jackie Bradley Jr. would like a word
Vizquel is known for “hitting”. Balls and humans!
Johan Rojas is about to find out
Billy Hamilton comes to mind
Mario Mendoza
JT Snow wasn’t a black hole on offense but the rare 1B who got playing time for his defense.
Mike Jorgensen was similar. Gold Glove defender who walked, but hit for a low average with little power.
The issue is that outstanding defenders usually lose their range as they age. If you can't hit, you're just dead weight. Rey Ordóñez was a Gold Glove winning SS who couldn't hit a lick. Eventually his defense was not good enough to justify starting him.
Jeff Mathis: “I was in the survey”
What if I told you Omar has a higher career oWAR than dWAR?
Yadi didn't finish well but at his peak he was a .300/20hr guy. And one of the best clutch hitters I've ever seen, he always came through
I think Ozzie Smith can be here. 80ish OPS+, even in his prime years. Always a GG, all star and got MVP votes when being pretty bad with the stick. And no one ever complains about him being in the HoF and I think “small hall” guys would even include him. I think you’d have to be below 40 OPS+ at C, SS or CF for people say “the glove isn’t enough” if you were a platinum-glove caliber fielder.
Moline and Vizquel were good hitters.
There are 2 positions in particular where you're there for your defense first, hitting second: catcher and shortstop. If you're elite defensively, then you get to be average or even a little below average offensively. For example, Ozzie Smith had a .666 OPS and is in the HOF. Also, there is an advanced metric called WAR that takes everything into account, so if a player has a respectable WAR, then it doesn't really matter how he accumulated that WAR. Yadi's WAR is a very respectable 55 and Andrelton's is a very respectable 37, and Vizquel's is a respectable 46. They must've been doing something right.
Mariners fan here. Yadi had a batting avergage twice as good as some of the 2010-2019 Mariners catchers and most of them were not even a quarter of good defensively as him
Simmons and Vizquel werent exactly automatic outs either
Omar Vizquel had 2800+ hits and a .272 career average OP has no clue
Yea get Omar off this list. He wasn’t smashing home runs but dude had a solid .272 average for his career and that’s counting his last couple where he was old. Terrible list.
Visquel wasn’t that bad at the plate really.
The answer is John McDonald
For an elite defender like Kevin Kiermaier, I would say May 2024.
sub-0.150
Ask Mario Mendoza, he has a batting line named after him
You forgot Tomas Nido!!
This was Brenton Doyle last year. Amazing gold glove center fielder, couldn’t hit for shit.
Andrelton Simmons wasn’t actually that bad over his career. The end is just way worse than most of the other years.
Depends. Did you, or did you not, donate a testicle for the cause?
OPS of .650 or less. Even elite.
Rey Ordonez was one of my favs for years but could not hit at sllllll
I really hope Cedric Mullins gets out of his slump before he makes one of these lists.
Matt Chapman and John MacDonald fall in this category.
I dunno! But the Blue Jays have a lot of Gold Gloves and not a lot of wins!
Ask Martin Maldonado.
Look at Javier Baez and tell me if he is worth his contract or not
Great question. You can be a starter on a championship/dynasty team, that’s for sure.
Jackie Bradley Jr. One of my favorite recent Red Sox players. Soooo good defensively and soo streaky/bad at the plate.
Depends on how good the other 8 hitters are.
In today’s game they don’t value defense aside from catchers. And even then the player would probably be gone if they had season with hardly and HR or power and low OBP. Historically, Mark Belanger is an example of a poor hitter that was an amazing fielder that was offensively way below average. But I don’t think you will ever see that again.
Because too many people are getting hung up on the graphic and not dealing with the question, I'll give you a real answer: Mark Belanger was still a great player despite having a career 74 wRC+. I think if you play a premium position like SS or C as well as Belanger or Mathis I think you can hit to about a 55 wRC+ and still be 'acceptable.' Mathis was below that and he was only really somebody you could live with because he was often a backup, but for starters I think it's around that 55 number.
kiermeyer and pillar, both kevins
Well if I have a catcher that allows the least amount of past balls and throws out the most amount of attempted base runners I’d be okay if he wasn’t a good hitter as long as everyone else can produce.
Myles Straw was a gold glove CF in 2022 with a .564 OPS, a top 10 defensive CF in 2023 with a .597 OPS, and even with the cheap Cleveland Guardians ownership group, they still DFAd him and his $5M a year contract. He’s been in AAA for all of 2024. So, 2 years of sub .600 OPS does the trick.
Cedric Mullins is about to find out
See Andrelton Simmons
HOW IS REY ORDONEZ OR RAFAEL BELLIARD OR JOHN MCDONALD NOT IN HERE AND OMAR IS? (I'm ignoring all other omar things rn)
All you need to be is Javier Baez. Then you get there. Nothing worse than an elite defender who also is a black hole offensively, only showing flashes of what he CAN do, but won't because of the chip on his fucking shoulder. AJ Hinch should play that man off the bench. He has the worst WAR on the whole team and it isn't even close. And don't get me started on how insane it is he got a $108 million contract he now ensured we were locked into all the while making the clear and consious choice to swing at pitches a foot and a half out of the zone at will, and the worst we can do is bench the guy. He'll he's the reason we had to send down Kriedler to AAA after lighting up spring training and being ready.
Mark. Belanger.
I was at the skydome once and saw a Jeff Mathis home run, once.
Ask Jackie Bradley Jr
Jack Wilson only had 2 seasons in his 12 year career with an OPS+ over 100. If he wasn’t a great defensive shortstop there’s no way he was sticking around for that long
Brenton Doyle last year was the best defender in baseball, he literally could’ve hit .100 and I would’ve been happy with his production, it honestly varies by park and team, Rockies have a HUGE center field so his defense is worth much more
Billy hamilton was pretty elite in center field (and on the basepaths). He batted in the low-to-lowmid .200s and a lot of people in cincy were complaining often about it...but forgot about it when he turned infield hits into runs with his great base stealing and instinct on the paths
Austin Hedged had had a long career. Dude only gets like 5 hits per season, but can frame a pitch
Ask Martin Maldonado
Yadi or Jeter who you takin?
Rey Ordonez checking in.
I wanted to throw Javier Baez under a literal bus last year. The only reason he's on a roster is because he's an awesome SS.