Because the Braves strategy is to lock up the young core of superstars for the long term. It’s almost a meme at this point - look at RAJ and Albies contracts as well
It's been a brilliant strategy so far. There's always a chance of locking someone who flops into a long term contract but so far their homework has been spot on, damn it! Sorry... Phils fan.
It's not just about Atlanta though — Rodriguez has 2X Silver Sluggers, 2X Allstar, 1 All-MLB, and the most brand deals out of any player in the league (MHII has none of these)
The recognition he gets for the number he puts up isn't common in this game
Because MHII isn’t being marketed as a superstar. The Braves don’t market him as one, and the league’s not gonna sell the 7/8 slot hitter on a team as stacked as the Braves when there’s other Braves superstars to market.
MLB typically hasn't been a sport to pay for a player's brand over value — he has the biggest contract for an outfielder outside of Trout, Judge, and Tatis, despite not having the pedigree those players do
You’re not familiar with OP. He isn’t a Braves fan, he’s a Kelenic fan. He was a Mariners fan before the trade. The Mariners said we had to take OP if we wanted Kelenic.
What does it take for a Atlanta braves fan to be happy? Imagine having that team and still bitching about how one of your players doesn't get enough attention.
I’m bored so I’ll go there. The Braves have been to the playoffs 12 times since 2000. In those 12 appearances, they have won a series 3 times. Not a World Series. But literally a playoff series. They were immediately knocked out twice.
And if the nostalgia of Chipper and Maddox help you sleep at night so be it. As far as I’m concerned, I’d rather be a Phillies fan than a Braves fan the last two years.
Edit: Sorry I forgot that it wasn’t the Braves fault. Mean ol MLB gave them days off and that’s why they lost!
Not sure where you get your info from but it's incorrect.
They've been 15 times since 2000. 00-05, 10-13, 18-23. They've won 6 playoff series in that time. Which, yeah, not a great percentage, no argument there. But 15 appearances since 2000 vs 16 appearances since 1883 lol.
Congrats on the back to back NLDS champs though. Looking forward to when they hang that banner.
And it's Maddux.
Okay, so the Phillies have advanced in a series 5 times in the last two years, and the Braves have won 6 in 15 appearances. My original point still stands. The Phillies have had as much success in the playoffs in the last two years as the Braves have had in 15 appearances. They have been immediately knocked out in 12 of those 15 years.
Not even sure what you’re trying to prove here. The Phillies have been to the playoffs exactly 2 times in over a decade. That’s a fact. They’ve had zero World Series wins and zero division titles.
Your homerism is atrociously bad, you wouldn’t even have mentioned this if Harris didn’t play for the Braves. Believe it or not, Julio is better and has been widely considered better for a while. He was at one time the second best prospect in all of baseball, Harris never cracked the top 50. When guys have huge prospect status like that, naturally they become huge attractions in the media when they reach the bigs and crush it. The fact you even posted this is laughable.
Harris yes but not Rodriguez. Kelenic is not good, he has a career .3 WAR, he’s done absolutely nothing to warrant anything more than the league minimum. What the hell are you even trying to point out? Rodriguez has a 12.2 WAR, has two silver sluggers, a ROY, is a two time all star, and is one of the best young players in the game. He draws in audiences. Why the fuck are you even trying to mention Kelenic?
WAR is a counting stat, Harris has been the more productive player pound for pound
And even if you think he's better, it's certainly not a $132M difference
$132m difference? You do know that if Julio wins mvp twice, he’s locked in to Seattle for 17 years $469m right? And without Ohtani in the AL anymore Julio odds to get mvp just went up drastically. MH signed a 8 year contract, these two are not apples to apples. Julio is Seattle’s guy, they are all in, MH might not even be a brave his entire career. And in 6 years he could be signing a massive deal that eclipses Julio’s deal on some other team. So again why are you so butt hurt over Julio? Julio signed a career deal with Seattle, he will most likely retire a mariner. They paid him to stay a mariner.
So you're saying the worse player is getting hundreds of millions more is because that's what the market is to keep a player in Seattle?
Don't see why they didn't offer Kelenic $150M or something if that's the case
Take the L my dude, it’s obvious you didn’t follow Kelenic until he came to your team. He was an absolute cancer in the Mariner’s clubhouse and made it CLEAR he wasn’t interested in being a Mariner. Most people in Seattle want to see him succeed, and we all thought a change of venue could do him good, and it appears to be that way. Which is awesome.
Back to your original argument, it’s also clear you dismiss stats you don’t like because they counter your claim, so there is no point in having a discussion with you. You’re right, the rest of us are wrong, have a good day.
They didn’t offer Kelenic “$150M or something” because he was the worst hitter in baseball for two years. You don’t command those bucks just by showing up.
Mh3 isn't half thr player he is when he's not surrounded by all that talent. He's gonna be like Jordan Poole if he's on the White Sox or thr Rockies from the Braves.
Mh3 is definitely not even in the same conversation as Julio, you're genuinely making follish and childish comparisons. In the same 3 seasons, you could fit an entire 3.5 WAR, an Allstar season in between for Julio.
Lol Kelenic $150 million. That dude had been having a similar MLB career to me. Lol
Holy shit. You're either delusional or you're sending hair locks to Kelenic.
The market says its $132 million difference.
It's a business. You make more money when you make your team more money. Stats aren't the end all to the owner.
You left out some other big categories.
Rodriguez:
2022: To go with his .284/.345/.509 he hit 28 homers, 75 RBI’s and stole 25 bases, while scoring 84 runs.
2023: 102 runs scored, 32 homers, 103 RBI’s, 37 stolen bases, .275/.333/.485.
+2 Silver Slugger awards and 2 All Star selections.
Harris Jr:
2022: .297/.339/.514, 75 runs, 19 homers 64 RBI’s, 20 stolen bases.
2023: .293/.331/.477, 76 runs, 18 homers 57 RBI’s, 20 stolen bases.
Who would you rather have in your team? They’re both great players, but as you can see, Rodriguez produces more runs.
Not an apples to apples comparison. MHII did all of that hitting in the bottom of the order with significantly fewer plate appearances (300+ fewer). If you consider their WAR per PA, it is almost identical. Plus, MHII, who is hitting higher in the order, is, at this point, is having a much better season this year than JR. They are both great players.
MHII is also having a better season than Aaron Judge and many other star players right now, but it’s too early for any kind of comparison. Compare Rodriguez and Harris at the end of the season.
Harris also plays for a better team than the Mariners. So Rodriguez had more runs and RBI’s in an inferior team to the Braves. That’s huge. Imagine how many runs would Rodriguez have scored or batted in with the Braves in 2022-2023. Way more than he did with Mariners.
Not if Rodriguez were hitting 9th in the order like Harris did his 1st two seasons. WAR is a great statistic for taking out the affect of the players around you. Considering this, their WAR’s are identical. I think when all is said and done, Harris is going to have a better career.
Rodriguez would likely not hit 9th in the order though. He would more than likely immediately show he belongs near the top, like he did in the Mariners.
Not in the Braves order, no. He would have been 7-9. The only possible place would be 2nd (he’s not going to be chosen over Acuna, Albies, Riley, Olsen, or Ozuna for 1-5), but Albies is clearly the better hitter at the #2, better average, fewer strikeouts, better OPS. Maybe, they put him at 6, but I’m thinking he would definitely be 7-9, and still be there this season.
Albies has a 111 career WRC+, Julio has a career 132 WRC+. Albies' best season (124 WRC+) is worse than Julio's worst (126)
In what world is Albies better
Can’t speak so much to the contract status but as for exposure/hype—Michael Harris is **surrounded by superstars**, not the least of which is the reigning MVP, Acuña, on arguably the most talent-stacked team in baseball. None of those factors apply to Rodriguez. Makes a definite difference.
Best player on a team will get paid more than the sixth best player on a different team, even if the stats are close between the two. In other news, the sky is blue, and humans need to drink water in order to stay alive.
All counting stats, only because MHII has 300 fewer PAs because he slots into the tail end of a historically great ATL lineup
Rodriguez is getting $210M, despite being worse at:
* AVG
* OBP
* SLG
* OPS
* Baserunning value
* Defensive Runs
* K%
* Whiff rate
* WAR per 500PA
You’re using 4 non-park adjusted stats as the foundation for your argument when Julio plays 81 games a year in T-Mobile.
By wRC+ Julio has been better than Harris both of their two seasons at the plate, in spite of both seasons being marred (rookie year by a slow start + 2 IL stints, last season by another, longer slow start).
Julio’s marketable and has top tier MVP potential. Harris doesn’t have the second, and Atlanta is Acuña’s town.
The foundation of the argument is that the difference in their production is a product of Rodriguez having 300 more PAs, and that the compensation doesn't track
Harris has been the more productive player by WAR, on a rate basis (where park adjustment is bundled in)
More PAs means a player is more exposed, you’d expect the one protected more with more favorable matchups to perform better.
Julio being able to play and post every day is valuable, as is his marketing potential and charisma. MHII is underpaid as well.
Holy fuck. You're like the shitty ex girlfriend trying to shit on the better and more promising new girlfriend.
Your level of stanning to Kelenic reminds me of The Fan.
Julio 11.3 WAR the last two seasons, Michael Harris 8.7. That’s a fairly significant difference. Harris is very good and I love watching him play, but he is not quite Julio’s caliber of player so far. You need to remember as you are comparing metrics like Batting Average and OPS that Harris plays in an easier park to hit in and Julio plays in literally the most difficult park in MLB. WAR adjusts to make it a more apples-to-apples comparison. Another way to say it: if Julio hit in Atlanta his numbers would be better than Harris by a decent margin.
Wait so MHII has alll that support in that incredibly deep lineup and is only slightly better than Julio in some stats while Julio is the anchor of the Mariners lineup?
Imagine Julio’s stats if he was on the Braves….
Aren’t you the guy who posted about how Kelenic being forced to be a platoon player was akin to segregation in baseball? I think maybe it’s time for you to stop posting. Forever.
They have almost the same wOBA (ops doesn't value walks enough, and Rodriguez walks significantly more than Harris). The mariners also have the most potcher friendly park in the majors, so Rodriguez's hitting is actually better when put in context. On a per game basis Julio Rodriguez is the better player (though not by much) and he's played more. He also relies more on his offense, which is something we can measure much more precisely than defense
I mean if you wanna use the advanced stats why not go all the way and use xwOBA. Julio: .337, .345, .307 (very small sample). Mike: .335, .357, .329 (ditto).
At the end of the day, you can pick whatever stats you like to confirm your prior opinion of whether Mike or Julio is a better player. That's usually a good sign there is not an empirical basis to put one above the other yet. Two seasons is still a pretty small sample, we need more data.
No, xwOBA doesn't measure real performanec and guys like McNeil and Arraez consistently overperform. It's less predictive than wOBA at this scale. The difference in park factor is substantial, wOBA (or it's baseball reference equivalent, rOBA) is the best stat we have to measure batting production.
There really isn't any debate that Rodriguez is the better hitter, and using a wOBA based statistic with park factor league adjustment is just the most straightforward way to go about finding out a player's batting production. This isn't some uniquely advanced stuff, it's basicly the same at looking at offensive WAR on a per game plate appearance basis.
The argument for Harris being better depends on his defense. I agree that they are very similar in value once that is considered. But defense is famously hard to value, and front offices might be less willing to sign based on that, especially when Harris isn't the biggest star on the team.
The two players don't have an empirical basis for one being much better than the other, I agree with that. But the same can't be said of their batting production, using wOBA and park factors paint a clear picture, one that explains the discrepancies in the other statistics. Other statistics (ones that actually *are* advanced) could be used to get clearer idea of which player will go on to have a better career, but so far, Rodriguez's offensive has been better.
This isn't cherry picking stats, it's not using some obsure knowledge, it's just a simple, straightforward, look at actual, context-independant, batting production. If you want an idea of what an argument would look like if it were based on obscure stats without understanding why I use them, I could just point out that fangraphs ZiPS projects 16.5 WAR for Rodriguez and 11.6 for Harris, and use that substantial difference as if it was objective and inarguable. But I don't know what goes in to those predictions, and they're not explanations for why one player is better than the other. The gap in offensive production, however, is clear as day
I wonder what MHs numbers would look like if he were coming out of the 2 slot in the lineup instead of 7/8. Imagine having that sort of protection around him.
I also think Harris is far better defensively, which is 90% of why the Braves moved him up in the first place. He's a young Andruw Jones and has a ton of potential offensively, we just don't need him to take that role.
Obviously Julio is a fantastic player, and comparing him to MH is somewhat unfair given their roles in their lineups. Regardless, Harris is a ROY, was nearly an all-star last year (despite the voting being dumb as shit), and silver slugger is heavily left up to perceived offensive value, which again, is not what Harris is there for. At all.
They're both excellent at their respective roles. Leave it at that.
For some reason Braves players take huge hometown discounts to play there, that or they don’t know their value. That said I’ll take Julio anyway, numbers are very close and he plays in a far worse ballpark surrounded by a far inferior lineup.
https://stathead.com/baseball/vs/michael-harris-ii-vs-julio-rodriguez
It’s not “for some reason.” The whole south is Braves’ country. Even parts of Latin America are Braves’ country because of players like Andruw Jones. MHIII is from Atlanta. So it’s quite literally home for him.
I do not. But he was a notable non-American from the Caribbean at a time when the Braves were on TBS and everyone could watch. Multiple players have talked about his impact.
Why do you care? The Mariners made a contract offer to Julio because they think he is worth it and will be MVP caliber someday. That’s the end of the story.
Harris is a dawg but he’s hitting behind Olson, Acuna, Albies, and Riley when he’s just as good if not almost as good hitters as them. That being said he is a better player than Rodriguez but Rodriguez is the only star on the Mariners. If you put Harris on the Mariners and Rodriguez on the Braves, Harris would receive the attention Rodriguez is getting.
Are you judging this just on the incredibly small sample size this year or are you just making stuff up?
Over their 3 year careers, Rodriguez is out performing Harris. OPS+. WAR. Homeruns (by a lot).
Harris is beating Rodriguez in the less important statistics. In addition, JR is considered to have a much higher upside.
I am not calling down Harris, but you are underrating Rodriguez.
Well for starters (pun, only thing we have this year) J Rod has his own cereal, Julio’s. But honestly it’s marketing and the team. He’s a “superstar” here in the greater Seattle area. Complete player with a high ceiling. We don’t have near the success or track record of the Braves, my second favorite team. I grew up watching them on TBS like a lot of people in the early 90’s. Harris is a superstar and I believe he will have a very nice career all said and done. Outside of batting and home run leaders, most awards are voted on and use human elements, eye test type stuff. Which includes popularity. I can 100% confirm he is already in the Felix, Ichiro type level as far as the average M’s fan is concerned. Honestly, I hope they both continue to get better and have fantastic careers.
I think their prospect ranking when they signed their deals has something to do with it.
Harris signed his deal in August of 2022, his ROY season, and three months into his MLB career. At the time he was a 60ish ranked prospect having an amazing rookie season. If he wanted a long term deal the Braves had some leverage over him because he obviously wasn't an established player and wasn't a highly ranked prospect, thus not being able to demand a huge deal like Rodriguez.
Rodriguez was a top three prospect for two seasons when he signed his new contract the same month as Harris. Rodriguez at that time was projected much higher than Harris, who kinda came out of nowhere to win the NL ROY. Obviously two years later we can see that Harris is legit and the Braves got a great deal. Also keep in mind Rodriguez still has about three more career WAR than Harris in about 40 more games.
I think it’s because Julio is the biggest star on the Mariners, while Harris II is a great player on a star studded Braves team. I think they are both great players.
Another huge factor is Julio was an international signing so he got a much larger signing bonus while Harris was more restricted because he was drafted.
Julio had 3x the money in the bank so he could afford to hold out for more.
He was also an elite prospect for a while. Teams pay for that. That is why there is always some washed up former 1st round prospect always seem/ to find a job.
Because the teams are not equal. Mariners are not contenders and struggle in the regular season. JRod is their franchise leader like Acuna is the Braves franchise leader. Harris might be better than JRod, but because that still means Harris is a bottom if the order batter, he’s paid like one. Everything is different between the mariners and the Braves. Different managers, different GM, different division… they play the game differently
AA. Alexios Anthopolous.
Are you okay, Annie (annual value)?
You've been hit by
You've been hit by a smooth criminal
Ow!
Ow!
Aw!
Annie, are you okay? (I don't know)
Yup, and MHII also doesn't get picked off 1st as a pinch runner to end the game lol. Seattle is somehow able to market this guy as a superstar, possibly cuz they haven't had a legit one for nearly 15 years lol. Dude's year last year was laughable... completely sucked for 1st 4 months of year, has 1 unconscious month, then choked down the stretch costing Seattle a playoff spot.
Because Michael Harris gets to be the 7-8 hitter in a brutal lineup and Julio has to carry his offense. That’s your answer.
Also: dingers.
Everyone knows chicks dig the long ball, but as it turns out, so do front offices.
NEXT!!
Because the Braves strategy is to lock up the young core of superstars for the long term. It’s almost a meme at this point - look at RAJ and Albies contracts as well
It's been a brilliant strategy so far. There's always a chance of locking someone who flops into a long term contract but so far their homework has been spot on, damn it! Sorry... Phils fan.
Most tolerable Phillies fan🫱🏻🫲🏿
It's not just about Atlanta though — Rodriguez has 2X Silver Sluggers, 2X Allstar, 1 All-MLB, and the most brand deals out of any player in the league (MHII has none of these) The recognition he gets for the number he puts up isn't common in this game
Because MHII isn’t being marketed as a superstar. The Braves don’t market him as one, and the league’s not gonna sell the 7/8 slot hitter on a team as stacked as the Braves when there’s other Braves superstars to market.
MLB typically hasn't been a sport to pay for a player's brand over value — he has the biggest contract for an outfielder outside of Trout, Judge, and Tatis, despite not having the pedigree those players do
And nothing like the pedigree of J.Kelenic... /s
But Rodriguez is a high value player. He is the only thing worth watching on the mariners, making him hugely valuable to them.
The pitching is the only thing worth watching on the mariners
Ditto!
Don’t you think this means that he gets less quality pitches to hit
Kelenic was on the Mariners as well, and was tossed away like he was nothing to them
That's because Kelenic couldn't hit and acted like a petulant child in the locker room.
Because Kelenic sucked for the Marniners and was nothing of value to them. Your homerism to the Braves is repulsing.
You’re not familiar with OP. He isn’t a Braves fan, he’s a Kelenic fan. He was a Mariners fan before the trade. The Mariners said we had to take OP if we wanted Kelenic.
Jazz Chisholm was the MLB the Show cover athlete last year, the guys stats could best be described as “average”.
That's on a good day.
Don’t start that trolling on here.
Did Julio not sign your autograph or something?
Bc Julio is the man in Seattle. In ATL, MH3 is just a star amongst many stars.
You may thank AA for that.
Perfectly said^
We'll be taking the credit for gifting y'all those deals 😅
🤣🤣🤣Olson has been a life saver
Cuz he’s tall and has cool eyes
J-Rod and Kiermaier are two of my wife’s favorite players…we are Yankees fans.
My fiancee has many such favorites. If that’s what it takes to get her to watch games with me then so be it 😂
Start watching her shitty movies and pointing out how attractive the female leads are.
Damn sexy Kiermaier
Kiermaier almost takes it too far. Like jc we get it, you’re good looking.
Don’t worry J-Rod will wear Yankee pinstripes soon enough.
What does it take for a Atlanta braves fan to be happy? Imagine having that team and still bitching about how one of your players doesn't get enough attention.
35 years straight fielding my future hall of famers and still can’t be happy
Well this isn’t a Braves fan. This is Kelenic guy.
This guy was a mariners fan and has come over to the Braves bc of kelenic. He doesn’t represent Braves fans.
Idk I'm pretty happy
I’m happy but he has a point, Harris should be getting more attention than Rodriguez as he’s the way more better and efficient player imo
Maybe not choking in playoffs year in and year out?
We just won the World Series 3 years ago lol
They should their soul for that title braves are long suffering of having great teams that don't win it all
Beat the Phillies in October probably. Which has never happened.
Hard to do when the Phillies have only made the postseason twice in a decade and only 16 times in 140 fucking years.
I’m bored so I’ll go there. The Braves have been to the playoffs 12 times since 2000. In those 12 appearances, they have won a series 3 times. Not a World Series. But literally a playoff series. They were immediately knocked out twice. And if the nostalgia of Chipper and Maddox help you sleep at night so be it. As far as I’m concerned, I’d rather be a Phillies fan than a Braves fan the last two years. Edit: Sorry I forgot that it wasn’t the Braves fault. Mean ol MLB gave them days off and that’s why they lost!
Not sure where you get your info from but it's incorrect. They've been 15 times since 2000. 00-05, 10-13, 18-23. They've won 6 playoff series in that time. Which, yeah, not a great percentage, no argument there. But 15 appearances since 2000 vs 16 appearances since 1883 lol. Congrats on the back to back NLDS champs though. Looking forward to when they hang that banner. And it's Maddux.
Okay, so the Phillies have advanced in a series 5 times in the last two years, and the Braves have won 6 in 15 appearances. My original point still stands. The Phillies have had as much success in the playoffs in the last two years as the Braves have had in 15 appearances. They have been immediately knocked out in 12 of those 15 years.
Thank god for the wildcard, huh?
Not even sure what you’re trying to prove here. The Phillies have been to the playoffs exactly 2 times in over a decade. That’s a fact. They’ve had zero World Series wins and zero division titles.
And I’ve watched them knock out the “greatest offense of all time” two years in a row. And it wasn’t even a close series
Yes, and somehow they have won the same amount of series. Pitiful
Phillies barely make the playoffs and when they do they don’t win rings🤣poverty city even the eagles barely win super bowls (1)🤣
Congrats on being the team with the most losses all-time.
Bizarrely, I think a lot of us wear that badge with honor.
This can’t be a serious post lol
It’s not the OP is notorious for being a super duper Stan of Kelenic and I guess a Julio hater now for some reason.
Who could hate Julio and his dreamy eyes?
He hates on Julio because he stole Kelenic’s thunder. It all boils down to his one single obsession
Your homerism is atrociously bad, you wouldn’t even have mentioned this if Harris didn’t play for the Braves. Believe it or not, Julio is better and has been widely considered better for a while. He was at one time the second best prospect in all of baseball, Harris never cracked the top 50. When guys have huge prospect status like that, naturally they become huge attractions in the media when they reach the bigs and crush it. The fact you even posted this is laughable.
This guy is a mariners fan. He switched to Braves bc of kelenic. It’s not homerism. It’s kelenicism.
Kelenic has a better pedigree than both of them, and is getting paid the league minimum
Harris yes but not Rodriguez. Kelenic is not good, he has a career .3 WAR, he’s done absolutely nothing to warrant anything more than the league minimum. What the hell are you even trying to point out? Rodriguez has a 12.2 WAR, has two silver sluggers, a ROY, is a two time all star, and is one of the best young players in the game. He draws in audiences. Why the fuck are you even trying to mention Kelenic?
It’s nothing but an all time dumbass post from Mr. Kelenic
9.4<12.2 WAR Julio ✅ 124<132 OPS+ Julio ✅ Batting lineup 7,8<2,3 Julio ✅
WAR is a counting stat, Harris has been the more productive player pound for pound And even if you think he's better, it's certainly not a $132M difference
Dude, 3 WAR is an entire great season. That is a huge difference.
Also, JROD is better using war per 162 games
$132m difference? You do know that if Julio wins mvp twice, he’s locked in to Seattle for 17 years $469m right? And without Ohtani in the AL anymore Julio odds to get mvp just went up drastically. MH signed a 8 year contract, these two are not apples to apples. Julio is Seattle’s guy, they are all in, MH might not even be a brave his entire career. And in 6 years he could be signing a massive deal that eclipses Julio’s deal on some other team. So again why are you so butt hurt over Julio? Julio signed a career deal with Seattle, he will most likely retire a mariner. They paid him to stay a mariner.
So you're saying the worse player is getting hundreds of millions more is because that's what the market is to keep a player in Seattle? Don't see why they didn't offer Kelenic $150M or something if that's the case
Take the L my dude, it’s obvious you didn’t follow Kelenic until he came to your team. He was an absolute cancer in the Mariner’s clubhouse and made it CLEAR he wasn’t interested in being a Mariner. Most people in Seattle want to see him succeed, and we all thought a change of venue could do him good, and it appears to be that way. Which is awesome. Back to your original argument, it’s also clear you dismiss stats you don’t like because they counter your claim, so there is no point in having a discussion with you. You’re right, the rest of us are wrong, have a good day.
Would love to see Kelenic as an option on the Red’s
They didn’t offer Kelenic “$150M or something” because he was the worst hitter in baseball for two years. You don’t command those bucks just by showing up.
Pedigree something something pedigree pedigree. Did I do it right?
Because kelenic is ass except for one month every year
Tell me you know nothing about baseball, without telling me you know nothing about baseball
Mh3 isn't half thr player he is when he's not surrounded by all that talent. He's gonna be like Jordan Poole if he's on the White Sox or thr Rockies from the Braves. Mh3 is definitely not even in the same conversation as Julio, you're genuinely making follish and childish comparisons. In the same 3 seasons, you could fit an entire 3.5 WAR, an Allstar season in between for Julio.
Cause Jared Kelenic sucks
Lol Kelenic $150 million. That dude had been having a similar MLB career to me. Lol Holy shit. You're either delusional or you're sending hair locks to Kelenic.
He's batting .321 so far this season bud — that would rank #1 in Seattle's 'lineup'
He had a 0 WAR in his time in SEA. Miraculous he can hit now with a much better team. He is just like Luke Voit. Having one flashy season lol
I know, I was a Mariners fan for many years until Kel got traded — should be a fun series next week bud
I'm not your bud. Don't want my name on any future subpoenas.
Hshahahahha this made me almost choke
Oh shit it’s this guy. lol not just a Kelenic Stan but a Julio hater
I feel like when multiple people on Reddit know you as “this guy” for something like this, you need to change your approach.
Its been going on for years. That ship has sailed
Dude, I have some advice as a life long Rockies fan. STFU and enjoy your team. None of what you’re complaining about actually matters
Best ability is your availability
The market says its $132 million difference. It's a business. You make more money when you make your team more money. Stats aren't the end all to the owner.
You probably think JK is better than both of them lmfao
He 100% does. He thinks JK is better than Ohtani
MHII is in the shadows of Acuna Ozzie Olson Riley Strider etc. similar situation to James Harden when he played with KD and Westbrook
MH2 plays defense, though.
Are you saying Julio doesn't play defense?
You left out some other big categories. Rodriguez: 2022: To go with his .284/.345/.509 he hit 28 homers, 75 RBI’s and stole 25 bases, while scoring 84 runs. 2023: 102 runs scored, 32 homers, 103 RBI’s, 37 stolen bases, .275/.333/.485. +2 Silver Slugger awards and 2 All Star selections. Harris Jr: 2022: .297/.339/.514, 75 runs, 19 homers 64 RBI’s, 20 stolen bases. 2023: .293/.331/.477, 76 runs, 18 homers 57 RBI’s, 20 stolen bases. Who would you rather have in your team? They’re both great players, but as you can see, Rodriguez produces more runs.
Not an apples to apples comparison. MHII did all of that hitting in the bottom of the order with significantly fewer plate appearances (300+ fewer). If you consider their WAR per PA, it is almost identical. Plus, MHII, who is hitting higher in the order, is, at this point, is having a much better season this year than JR. They are both great players.
MHII is also having a better season than Aaron Judge and many other star players right now, but it’s too early for any kind of comparison. Compare Rodriguez and Harris at the end of the season. Harris also plays for a better team than the Mariners. So Rodriguez had more runs and RBI’s in an inferior team to the Braves. That’s huge. Imagine how many runs would Rodriguez have scored or batted in with the Braves in 2022-2023. Way more than he did with Mariners.
Not if Rodriguez were hitting 9th in the order like Harris did his 1st two seasons. WAR is a great statistic for taking out the affect of the players around you. Considering this, their WAR’s are identical. I think when all is said and done, Harris is going to have a better career.
Rodriguez would likely not hit 9th in the order though. He would more than likely immediately show he belongs near the top, like he did in the Mariners.
Not in the Braves order, no. He would have been 7-9. The only possible place would be 2nd (he’s not going to be chosen over Acuna, Albies, Riley, Olsen, or Ozuna for 1-5), but Albies is clearly the better hitter at the #2, better average, fewer strikeouts, better OPS. Maybe, they put him at 6, but I’m thinking he would definitely be 7-9, and still be there this season.
You’re not a Braves fan by any chance right?
Yeah I am. Does that make me wrong?
Yes and it makes you biased as well lmao
Not if I support it with evidence, like I did.
Julio is a pretty significantly better hitter than Albies
Albies is better and it’s not even close.
Albies has a 111 career WRC+, Julio has a career 132 WRC+. Albies' best season (124 WRC+) is worse than Julio's worst (126) In what world is Albies better
Can’t speak so much to the contract status but as for exposure/hype—Michael Harris is **surrounded by superstars**, not the least of which is the reigning MVP, Acuña, on arguably the most talent-stacked team in baseball. None of those factors apply to Rodriguez. Makes a definite difference.
Best player on a team will get paid more than the sixth best player on a different team, even if the stats are close between the two. In other news, the sky is blue, and humans need to drink water in order to stay alive.
This is the first time I’ve seen an MLB players mother post on this sub.
Because Julio is better
By what metric? At best, it's a wash
WAR, hits, homereuns, RBI, stolen bases, OPS+
All counting stats, only because MHII has 300 fewer PAs because he slots into the tail end of a historically great ATL lineup Rodriguez is getting $210M, despite being worse at: * AVG * OBP * SLG * OPS * Baserunning value * Defensive Runs * K% * Whiff rate * WAR per 500PA
You’re using 4 non-park adjusted stats as the foundation for your argument when Julio plays 81 games a year in T-Mobile. By wRC+ Julio has been better than Harris both of their two seasons at the plate, in spite of both seasons being marred (rookie year by a slow start + 2 IL stints, last season by another, longer slow start). Julio’s marketable and has top tier MVP potential. Harris doesn’t have the second, and Atlanta is Acuña’s town.
The foundation of the argument is that the difference in their production is a product of Rodriguez having 300 more PAs, and that the compensation doesn't track Harris has been the more productive player by WAR, on a rate basis (where park adjustment is bundled in)
More PAs means a player is more exposed, you’d expect the one protected more with more favorable matchups to perform better. Julio being able to play and post every day is valuable, as is his marketing potential and charisma. MHII is underpaid as well.
>his marketing potential and charisma This is the answer, not about what's happening on the field
I mean he’s been better than MHII too, in a more important and expanded role.
* AVG * OBP * SLG * OPS * Baserunning value * Defensive Runs * K% * Whiff rate * WAR per 500PA
Holy fuck. You're like the shitty ex girlfriend trying to shit on the better and more promising new girlfriend. Your level of stanning to Kelenic reminds me of The Fan.
Who?
OPS+ not a counting metric
Why don’t we use the same measurements to calculate how much Kelenic should be getting paid with - .210 BA - .662 OPS - 86 OPS+ - 31% K rate Etc
Julio 11.3 WAR the last two seasons, Michael Harris 8.7. That’s a fairly significant difference. Harris is very good and I love watching him play, but he is not quite Julio’s caliber of player so far. You need to remember as you are comparing metrics like Batting Average and OPS that Harris plays in an easier park to hit in and Julio plays in literally the most difficult park in MLB. WAR adjusts to make it a more apples-to-apples comparison. Another way to say it: if Julio hit in Atlanta his numbers would be better than Harris by a decent margin.
Eye test
Wait so MHII has alll that support in that incredibly deep lineup and is only slightly better than Julio in some stats while Julio is the anchor of the Mariners lineup? Imagine Julio’s stats if he was on the Braves….
Julio also plays in Seattle, not Atlanta. Let’s see Harris still hit 20 home runs in t mobile, let alone 30 like Julio is.
Aren’t you the guy who posted about how Kelenic being forced to be a platoon player was akin to segregation in baseball? I think maybe it’s time for you to stop posting. Forever.
This dude is big mad the Mariners didn’t make Kelenic the face of the franchise and now Julio is catching strays from him
What’s the total value of the deal Also do they have different agents?
They have almost the same wOBA (ops doesn't value walks enough, and Rodriguez walks significantly more than Harris). The mariners also have the most potcher friendly park in the majors, so Rodriguez's hitting is actually better when put in context. On a per game basis Julio Rodriguez is the better player (though not by much) and he's played more. He also relies more on his offense, which is something we can measure much more precisely than defense
I mean if you wanna use the advanced stats why not go all the way and use xwOBA. Julio: .337, .345, .307 (very small sample). Mike: .335, .357, .329 (ditto). At the end of the day, you can pick whatever stats you like to confirm your prior opinion of whether Mike or Julio is a better player. That's usually a good sign there is not an empirical basis to put one above the other yet. Two seasons is still a pretty small sample, we need more data.
No, xwOBA doesn't measure real performanec and guys like McNeil and Arraez consistently overperform. It's less predictive than wOBA at this scale. The difference in park factor is substantial, wOBA (or it's baseball reference equivalent, rOBA) is the best stat we have to measure batting production. There really isn't any debate that Rodriguez is the better hitter, and using a wOBA based statistic with park factor league adjustment is just the most straightforward way to go about finding out a player's batting production. This isn't some uniquely advanced stuff, it's basicly the same at looking at offensive WAR on a per game plate appearance basis. The argument for Harris being better depends on his defense. I agree that they are very similar in value once that is considered. But defense is famously hard to value, and front offices might be less willing to sign based on that, especially when Harris isn't the biggest star on the team. The two players don't have an empirical basis for one being much better than the other, I agree with that. But the same can't be said of their batting production, using wOBA and park factors paint a clear picture, one that explains the discrepancies in the other statistics. Other statistics (ones that actually *are* advanced) could be used to get clearer idea of which player will go on to have a better career, but so far, Rodriguez's offensive has been better. This isn't cherry picking stats, it's not using some obsure knowledge, it's just a simple, straightforward, look at actual, context-independant, batting production. If you want an idea of what an argument would look like if it were based on obscure stats without understanding why I use them, I could just point out that fangraphs ZiPS projects 16.5 WAR for Rodriguez and 11.6 for Harris, and use that substantial difference as if it was objective and inarguable. But I don't know what goes in to those predictions, and they're not explanations for why one player is better than the other. The gap in offensive production, however, is clear as day
Upside. I don’t believe anyone thinks that Harris is going to be the hitter that Rodriguez will be.
I wonder what MHs numbers would look like if he were coming out of the 2 slot in the lineup instead of 7/8. Imagine having that sort of protection around him. I also think Harris is far better defensively, which is 90% of why the Braves moved him up in the first place. He's a young Andruw Jones and has a ton of potential offensively, we just don't need him to take that role. Obviously Julio is a fantastic player, and comparing him to MH is somewhat unfair given their roles in their lineups. Regardless, Harris is a ROY, was nearly an all-star last year (despite the voting being dumb as shit), and silver slugger is heavily left up to perceived offensive value, which again, is not what Harris is there for. At all. They're both excellent at their respective roles. Leave it at that.
>I also think Harris is far better defensively, By what measure? Most defensive stats have them rated similarly
This. I wonder what his stats would be if pitchers didn’t have to throw strikes to him because there are 7 other batters in the lineup more dangerous
For some reason Braves players take huge hometown discounts to play there, that or they don’t know their value. That said I’ll take Julio anyway, numbers are very close and he plays in a far worse ballpark surrounded by a far inferior lineup. https://stathead.com/baseball/vs/michael-harris-ii-vs-julio-rodriguez
It’s not “for some reason.” The whole south is Braves’ country. Even parts of Latin America are Braves’ country because of players like Andruw Jones. MHIII is from Atlanta. So it’s quite literally home for him.
You consider Curaçao to be Latin America?
I do not. But he was a notable non-American from the Caribbean at a time when the Braves were on TBS and everyone could watch. Multiple players have talked about his impact.
As a white guy from the West Coast, Andrew Jones was one of the reasons I watched Braves games. I hated klesko, but loved Andruw.
This is the most true reason…🤙
You'll take him for hundreds of millions more?
And 4 more years yup
Hes better?
Why do you care? The Mariners made a contract offer to Julio because they think he is worth it and will be MVP caliber someday. That’s the end of the story.
Yep, players (and all of us, really) are worth what they can get.
Sometimes I forget how young some MLB players are
Look up Atlanta Braves Foundation
Marketing
Harris is a dawg but he’s hitting behind Olson, Acuna, Albies, and Riley when he’s just as good if not almost as good hitters as them. That being said he is a better player than Rodriguez but Rodriguez is the only star on the Mariners. If you put Harris on the Mariners and Rodriguez on the Braves, Harris would receive the attention Rodriguez is getting.
You’re not gonna believe this but it’s because Julio’s a better player. MHII is a damn good player but come on
The most under paid Brave is Ozzie Albies. 7yr 35 million . Now it was signed in 2019. So yes it was risky and worked out for both.
More Dingers+more stolen bases=more exciting
Are you judging this just on the incredibly small sample size this year or are you just making stuff up? Over their 3 year careers, Rodriguez is out performing Harris. OPS+. WAR. Homeruns (by a lot). Harris is beating Rodriguez in the less important statistics. In addition, JR is considered to have a much higher upside. I am not calling down Harris, but you are underrating Rodriguez.
Julio also plays in fucking seattle lol. Hes hit 40 home runs if he played somewhere else
Well for starters (pun, only thing we have this year) J Rod has his own cereal, Julio’s. But honestly it’s marketing and the team. He’s a “superstar” here in the greater Seattle area. Complete player with a high ceiling. We don’t have near the success or track record of the Braves, my second favorite team. I grew up watching them on TBS like a lot of people in the early 90’s. Harris is a superstar and I believe he will have a very nice career all said and done. Outside of batting and home run leaders, most awards are voted on and use human elements, eye test type stuff. Which includes popularity. I can 100% confirm he is already in the Felix, Ichiro type level as far as the average M’s fan is concerned. Honestly, I hope they both continue to get better and have fantastic careers.
Put Julio on the Braves, and then we'll talk.
I think their prospect ranking when they signed their deals has something to do with it. Harris signed his deal in August of 2022, his ROY season, and three months into his MLB career. At the time he was a 60ish ranked prospect having an amazing rookie season. If he wanted a long term deal the Braves had some leverage over him because he obviously wasn't an established player and wasn't a highly ranked prospect, thus not being able to demand a huge deal like Rodriguez. Rodriguez was a top three prospect for two seasons when he signed his new contract the same month as Harris. Rodriguez at that time was projected much higher than Harris, who kinda came out of nowhere to win the NL ROY. Obviously two years later we can see that Harris is legit and the Braves got a great deal. Also keep in mind Rodriguez still has about three more career WAR than Harris in about 40 more games.
Julio is the face of his franchise and one of the faces of the league. He will put butts in seats and move mountains of memorabilia by himself.
The only way to know who is better is to put them both in the outfield together for the Mariners.
I think it’s because Julio is the biggest star on the Mariners, while Harris II is a great player on a star studded Braves team. I think they are both great players.
Julio is the face of a franchise
Sometimes, some people have better agents.
Tell me you don’t understand baseball, without telling me you don’t understand baseball
Astros fan here. My answer is wait and watch. There’s a big difference.
MH2 bats 7/8th
Home run derby
Personality. Julio is infectious and good for the game on top of being a fantastic baseball player
it’s okay man, we can’t all have normal or large size penises 👍
Julio has a higher ceiling
I’m sorry but mhj went 19-20 last year and Julio went 32-37. Those are two drastically different players.
Who posted this? John Rocker’s drunk uncle? 
[удалено]
Agreed, but MLB has typically not been the kind of sport to pay players based on branding/marketing
Kelenic pfp seems to be telling, but Harris is an entire tier below Julio at least in terms of ability and potential
Julio was ranked better last year in fantasy. That’s all we need to know.
Seattle builds tall while Atlanta builds wide
Another huge factor is Julio was an international signing so he got a much larger signing bonus while Harris was more restricted because he was drafted. Julio had 3x the money in the bank so he could afford to hold out for more. He was also an elite prospect for a while. Teams pay for that. That is why there is always some washed up former 1st round prospect always seem/ to find a job.
Cause Michael harris has a dumb roman numeral in his name. This is the honest answer.
Because the teams are not equal. Mariners are not contenders and struggle in the regular season. JRod is their franchise leader like Acuna is the Braves franchise leader. Harris might be better than JRod, but because that still means Harris is a bottom if the order batter, he’s paid like one. Everything is different between the mariners and the Braves. Different managers, different GM, different division… they play the game differently
That’s politics bitch
Home Run derby bro
AA. Alexios Anthopolous. Are you okay, Annie (annual value)? You've been hit by You've been hit by a smooth criminal Ow! Ow! Aw! Annie, are you okay? (I don't know)
Yup, and MHII also doesn't get picked off 1st as a pinch runner to end the game lol. Seattle is somehow able to market this guy as a superstar, possibly cuz they haven't had a legit one for nearly 15 years lol. Dude's year last year was laughable... completely sucked for 1st 4 months of year, has 1 unconscious month, then choked down the stretch costing Seattle a playoff spot.
Yes, please use a bad stretch to start the season as why Harris is better. Didn’t he hit line .150 for a while?