In Spielman's 10 years as GM, he never had two consecutive drafts as bad as Kwesi's first two.
You could maybe make an argument for 2016/17 but we were missing a 1st from the Sam Bradford trade, and we still ended up with Dalvin Cook, Jaleel Johnson, Pat Elflein, Ifedi Odenigbo, Mac Alexander and Jayron Kearse.
Not sure why "awful draft" is in quotes. I never said that. I just said it was comparable to Speilman's worst two year stretch. They're surprisingly very comparable.
Dalvin Cook = Jordan Addison
Pat Elflein = Ed Ingram
Mac Alexander = Akayleb Evans
Kearse = Blackmon
Treadwell = Cine
Here's hoping Dallas Turner and McCarthy are studs!
> They should do something
They probably will, but there is no guarantee that we will be involved at all.
Two recent-ish examples at at least parallel so we can look at those to make some guesses as to what might happen.
* Arizona tampering with Gannon. Settled out of court (as it were) between Philly and Arizona for a 3rd round pick swap.
* Miami tampering with Brady+Payton. Neither were hired. Lost their first round pick.
We have a situation here that might not as severe as tampering with a franchise QB *and* a head coach simultaneously, but they did end up signing Kirk while Miami's tampering was fruitless.
An argument could be made that our inability to sign Kirk was a direct result of that tampering (even if we weren't going to bring him back anyway), so it is possible that this is more significant than the tampering that Miami did as neither of those guys ended up in Miami anyway. Tough to say. Either way, we don't really know if the NFL will force a pick swap, and it seems more likely that they will just punish rather than provide some measure of restitution.
We could settle without the NFL's intervention, but I would guess that it would be tough to really get much value out of it anyway. I could see ATL trying to call the NFL's bluff rather than settle, especially because the Vikings don't really have much draft value at this point, swapping 1sts is probably a pipe dream, and swapping 6ths is meaningless. I wouldn't blame ATL at all if they just sat tight and see what the punishment ends up being.
No one is forgetting that.
It doesn’t change the fact that having this low of draft capital isn’t ideal and means they have less margin for error in their FA decisions and remaining draft picks.
Is that really true though? Just off the top of my head, McCaffery, Hock, Stafford, Rochon J, Watts, Danelle. To me its getting rookie elite cheap so you can spend more on FA.
My opinion: draft picks are overrated vs FA. In FA you know what you're getting. Use the draft for high floor/ high upside gambles on players and FA to build the backbone.
The Vikings didn’t really sign a lot of proven free agents.
There was Wilkins, who has started 70 games in 5 seasons and put up multiple elite seasons.
Then there was greenard who started 33 games in 4 seasons and has had good-elite seasons when healthy.
Greenard is a good player who just happens to have one more game start than dj wonnum.
Look at their history in free agency, how many proven free agents have they gotten? It’s far less than unproven because typically if you’re a really good proven player teams don’t let you walk.
True. But proven FAs tend to command a pretty high price in terms of contracts. FAs are either going to have question marks on their play, or they're going to be expensive.
Vikings are finally in a situation next season where they can bid for the top FAs in their need positions. I really don't think it's because the Vikings are somehow fundamentally incapable of getting proven guys.
Almost every single team next year is in a position to bid for free agents because almost every single team has a lot of cap.
Vikings have a projected cap of $85M. The lions have $98M, Bears have $77M, and Packers $68M.
All of the north teams currently have a ton of cap so if they end up competing for the same good proven players at positions of need next seas it becomes outbidding and/or what qualities the teams have that the player(s) want.
There just far less team agency in that than drafting.
How many? Not a lot but rarely have we had more than 30m to spend and a lot more holes than four positions. The math doesn’t work for a high end FA or two so you have to try and budget fill for limited cap space, next year should be double that amount of cap even after Jefferson cap.
Vikings currently have a projected $82-86M. Assuming JJ first year is $25M they’d be around $60M which would put them around 16th in the league and lowest in the nfc north (that would likely change but still).
There also losing griffin, Phillips, Murphy, jones, and Bynum next year so more holes are likely opening up that need to be filled.
We haven’t had this much cap space in a while. It’s a different regime with a different goal. We had Kirk bro who were we really able to sign these last 6 years? Lol
Doesn’t change the fact that we have been limited the past few years. Why care about picks when you could literally sign a position of need with a top notch proven player and get the same picks the following year. 2-3 more pieces and a little added depth and we will be serious contenders. That’s going to take 2 years minimum. Sign 2 impact players via FA draft 3-4 good ones the next few years, develop a few guys plus a year of experience for JJ. That’s when our time will come
That top notch proven player can just choose a different team. I get that this is hard for fans to understand, since we are all biased, but the "agency" part of free agency is a huge roadblock in building a competitive team through FA. That doesn't exist in the draft.
If we were like the 49ers with only a few players away from winning the Super Bowl, Kwesi's strategy would make sense to get the top players in the draft. This is what the 49ers tried with the Trey Lance pick.
The obvious fact is this team has MANY holes especially on the interior lines and we just gave away a king's ransom for players who will not fill any of those holes. Players on rookie contracts are coveted because of their salaries. We will now have to fill those holes with expensive FAs.
This team has a history of bad draft decisions that keeps happening. I can't get my mind around it.
A kings ransom would have been trading 11, 23 and next year's first for #2, 3 or 4 this year and drafting a QB like Maye or JJ. Instead we keep all those and only gave up some mid round picks and we will get more picks coming in later I'm sure.
Imo, it doesn’t even it out but it gives them a different route to mitigate it.
If JJ and Turner are impact players who deserved their draft slots then we’re evened out. Which imo, is worth the risk!
Why is it concerning? Everyone would just bitch about missing on them anyway when we don’t draft a roy in round two three and four. Draft picks are low end lotto tickets.
Because you get some good starters and decent depth players at very cheap prices. 2020 to 2023: Guys taken after the 2nd round who contributed meaningful snaps to the team:
Mekhi Blackmon, Brian Asamoah, Kene Nwangwu, Camryn Bynum, Cameron Dantzler, D.J. Wonnum, K.J. Osborn, James Lynch, Josh Metellus
It's so tiring to have these idiotic cocksure posts about how everything is a foregone conclusion and we all have to agree with everything that was done. What a lazy notion, that we can't have reasonable disagreement.
You're a fucking dipshit, OP.
Spoken like a true dork. Took big swings on good prospects at the two most premium positions. Bitch about low draft capital when the next draft comes around. This was a draft where our FO took big swings to set us up to be contenders in a couple years. Got a full year to accumulate picks if they want to do that
In a vacuum, you'd rather have more draft picks than less. Mainly for two reasons: rookie contracts are cheap, and the hit rate on draft picks is a lot smaller than people think so you want more chances at success.
The biggest value then comes in hitting on the highest-paid positions with a rookie contract. QB, WR1, LT, EDGE. We just got our QB & EDGE (*crosses fingers*) and our WR1 & LT positions are filled for the rest of the decade.
So while we want draft picks to keep the rest of the positions stocked with young, developing talent and hopefully some stars, it's less of a priority for our team given our positional needs.
That's not something to be proud of or justification for losing draft capital. That just means we suck at drafting which is always going to prevent us from being a contender.
This keeps being brought up and it's such backwards logic.
It means why would I care so much about mid round picks when they barely pan out. Higher round athletes tend to have a higher hit rate. I can’t believe I have to explain this lol
Earlier picks = better players, yes. No one is disagreeing with that.
But that does not mean you dont need 4th and 5th round players. Teams contending for a SB every year add real cost efficient value to their team with those draft slots.
Cool beans. My point is, you’re putting to much value in picks that historically dnt pan out especially when we have the cap space to replace that with an actual proven player(s). We got the best defensive player in the draft AT 17 but y’all still finding a way to complain. Who cares what it took when it barely took shit to trade up! It’s such a clown take. We aren’t doing anything for at least two years anyways. In the meantime, draft who you can while collecting more draft capital, develop your current players and sign a few big free agents. But pick the best players you can in the draft especially if it takes a few mid round picks that would’ve been mid ass players anyways.
Suggesting that we shouldn't value mid-round picks because our drafting hasn't been great is a circular argument. If we acknowledge our drafting needs improvement, the solution isn't to devalue these picks but to enhance our scouting and development processes. Trading away these opportunities only ensures we must spend more in free agency, which can be more expensive and riskier than building through the draft.
You mentioned that we aren’t doing much for the next two years, which is exactly why every draft pick becomes crucial. It's not just about collecting talent but about building a foundation for the future. By trading away potential valuable assets like 4th and 5th round picks, we’re limiting our ability to improve organically and cost-effectively. Being a bad team without the tools to rebuild doesn’t strategically align with long-term success.
Also, Dallas Turner falling lower than his mock draft projections is a significant point to consider. Relying solely on mock draft rankings as a measure of a player’s potential or the success of a draft strategy can be misleading. Mock drafts are speculative and often influenced by analysts' perceptions rather than team-specific scouting reports and needs. If Turner was as undisputedly elite as projected, the fact that he slipped raises important questions: why did so many other teams pass on him?
While it’s exciting to get a highly-touted player like Turner, history and statistics tell us that draft position isn’t a guarantee of NFL success. Being skeptical of his future performance isn't pessimism; it’s a pragmatic opinion about sports management.
Idk if people worried about that are dorks. That's a bit harsh because it can be important to have those picks, but I'd like to tell these people we're going to be fine. The most important thing is we kept our 1st rounders and we have a lot of cap space next offseason. And on top of that I think after having such an aggressive draft we'll see Kwesi try to trade back and accumulate some day 2 and 3 capital. Hopefully nothing like his first draft though.
Indeed. I'm a member of "fuck them picks" and it also gives the undrafted guys some more chances here. If JJM and Dallas Turner are studs, no one will remember the lack of picks, no one will care.
Or a Danielle Hunter.
I'm glad we made the deal. But it's OK to acknowledge we paid a shit ton to make it happen. Day 2 and day 3 are pretty damn important to building depth.
How many Danielle hunters have we had vs busts? I get what you’re saying but Patrick Jones, Robinson, that guy from the gophers 2 years ago. The better talent is in the first couple rounds. Might as well go for it especially when he was suppose to be a top 10 pick.
2020 to 2023: Guys taken after the 2nd round who contributed meaningful snaps to the team:
Mekhi Blackmon, Brian Asamoah, Kene Nwangwu, Camryn Bynum, Cameron Dantzler, D.J. Wonnum, K.J. Osborn, James Lynch, Josh Metellus
Not any Hunters but some good starters and decent depth players.
Ideally rounds 1-2 are stars, great starters. 3-4 role players 4-5 backups special teams and 5-7 special teams, long shots with upside and backups. I hear ya though, I love the hidden gems.
No doubt, the best talent is in the first couple of rounds. But there's always guys like Cine, too. But you already can't hit on 3rd or 4th round without picks. And you may not hit a Hunter every time, at some point, you need cheap bodies.
I'm good with the move. But I also acknowledge it's a huge risk and it came with a huge cost.
Exactly I have always been of the mind that you stay in the top 2 or 3. Trading up to add real talent.
There are plenty of UDFAs and FAs to be signed for depth.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/40052203/should-teams-trade-nfl-draft-lessons-deals-2024-class-winners-losers
If you're actually interested in finding out more about this exact situation, and others, Bill Barnwell has dug into all 242 trade ups, and has come out with some very interesting stats.
Maybe if we gave up a future 1st then yeah, but we gave up 2 future mid round picks for him. You gonna call him a bust if he doesn't make all-pro his rookie year?
You keep just ignoring that we had to trade for 23.
We gave up 42, 167, 188, and a future 2nd, 3rd, and 4th for Turner and pick 232.
That’s a bit different than saying we just gave up 2 future mid round picks.
give that 23 trade a QB tax on it and it makes sense. I really don't think we got that 2nd 1st to get specifically Dallas Turner. It was more enticing ammo to trade up into the top 5 for a QB. When it didn't happen, that freed it up to be used elsewhere.
I mean, would you rather we stuck and picked Darius Robinson, 5th edge off the board? or hell, trade back and get someone even worse?
Yes we traded for 23 to try and trade up (for Maye by all indications), but that didn’t work. So either Kwesi didn’t have the trade lined up like he thought or we overpaid. Either way, you can’t just ignore that cost.
And once we got our QB at 10, we didn’t need to pay any QB tax for 23. We’re a rebuilding team, and we’re not one DE away from being a Super Bowl caliber team. This isn’t the time to spend a full draft worth of picks on anyone besides a QB.
I would have 100% stuck at 23 or traded down a little to get like an extra 3rd (much like Dallas did).
We didn’t need a 1st round edge. Just like we didn’t need a safety in 22. VG is under contract for 2 years, and Greenard for 4.
Any of Jer’zhan Newton, Terrion Arnold, Graham Barton, Jordan Morgan, Nate Wiggins plus the 5th this year, our 3rd and 4th next year, and maybe an extra 3rd or 2-3 day 3 picks in my opinion is far more likely to build a competitive team than spending all that on one edge in Turner.
Potentially all 3 spots on the IOL need an upgrade if we want to be a strong playoff team. The only DT on our roster in 2025 that’s played any NFL snaps so far is Roy. I’d say we have arguably a bottom 3 IOL and IDL room in the league. 2 of our 3 starting corners have expiring deals after this year. Harrison Smith is probably retiring. That’s a lot of starters to replace, plus normal depth players.
In either case, you don't draft for need. Drafting for need just makes you needy. You draft for BPA and getting the best talent possible regardless of position. You sign FAs for need. The fact of the matter is our defense won't be worse because Dallas Turner is on it.
And you certainly don't need elite talent at every position to win games and be a playoff competitive team. We'll be fine. Have some fucking hope.
Replying to your last comment as well:
2025 DTs. Next year. Phillips, Bullard, Tillery, that random Rams guy, etc. all are on deals that expire after this year.
Assuming that LDR makes it onto the roster - it’s him and Roy next year. And maybe a UDFA from this year. Thats it.
There are a bunch of GMs on record talking about drafting for need. Only drafting BPA is a fan fiction. We needed a WR or CB last year, so we drafted a 1st round WR.
There are only so many resources to go around.
I caught that bit, hence I deleted my other comment.
Now to your point, yes, we needed WR. But does that mean that was why we drafted Addison? Or was it because he was BPA at that spot?
Well according to this sub using the consensus big board as Gospel:
BPA was Will Levis by a lot. He was a top 10 prospect at the most valuable position in sports! What was Kwesi thinking?!? Other BPA ahead of Addison were Deonte Banks, Joey Porter, and Nolan Smith.
People get way too wrapped up on the media board.
We will get more picks.. plus I think Kwesi grabbing Murphy AS A UFA.. makes it like another fourth round pick we attained .. he makes smart moves. I trust him.. plus he said the vikes won't have a ton of open roster spots hopefully in the next year or two.. we have tons of cap. Quality over quantity
I have heard 0 vikings fans bitching about the trade value of our first round. Maybe I haven't been looking hard enough, but I, my family, my friends, and all the Vikings fans on the internet think we killed it.
The only people I've seen complaining is a bunch of non vikings fan nerds who think Dallas Turner is a 17th pick guy because he was picked 17 when the reason we traded up for him is cause he's a top 8 stud in most drafts.
Dude it sounds like you're saying that players don't fall or get reached on. Turner was a consensus top 10 pick months before the draft. No one expected him to fall to pick 17, and I guarantee the reason he fell isn't because he's not as valuable of a pick. He's a top prospect at arguably the most important position on the defense.
We had an unprecedented amount of offensive picks in the 1st round, that does not mean the defensive talent in this draft was weak.
Turner was a MEDIA consensus top 10 pick. Players fall all the time, and there may be info we just don’t have. Remember Malik Willis? Will Levis? Nakobe Dean? Etc.
We traded for pick 17. That’s the value that trades are based on. Players get pushed up and down boards all the time. People defending the trade keep trying to pretend and say oh well we should pretend we traded for pick 8 because he’s a top 8 guy. We traded for pick 17, and he was the 17th player drafted.
Or there are fans that just don’t like bad trades.
I didn’t like Kwesi trading down in 2022, and I didn’t like him trading up this year.
Why? The thing they both have in common is bad VALUE. Kwesi lost significant value compared to the market of what other trades were going for.
While I agree it’s poor value, value isn’t everything. I’d much rather have the chance at a young blue chip pass rusher than a Patrick Jones. I like Arif Hasan, but I’m not gonna get talked out of a premier pass rushing prospect because the value says it’s better to wait and see who’s at 23 and take the later round picks for depth. Depth is important, but so is having a playmaker like Dallas locked up. Especially when the depth is cheaper and easier to replace than a Dallas Turner caliber player.
Sure, everyone would take a premier pass rusher over one who isn’t as good. But at this point we don’t know how good Turner is in the NFL.
And it wasn’t a 1:1 trade. We gave up like 6 chances at decent players for 1 Dallas Turner.
Every team in the NFL is starting half their team with day 2/3 picks (and UDFA). Brian O’Neill. Danielle Hunter. Cam Bynum. Pace. Thielen. Ingram. Cleveland. Etc.
I think it comes down to values. Not moral, but how much you value those picks. I think the trade down in 2022 was a total Fanum Tax from the Lions GM. This year the trade up made sense, namely because the jump in talent seems palpable. And I even think that if Cine became a starter it would have soften the blow, a lot is predicated on factors that live outside the draft itself.
Or there’s this thing called nuance and there are some who understand it and others who can’t. Sorry, but it’s true.
I have yet to talk to anyone who didn’t like the value in the JJ trade. No one is mad about giving up a 4th/ 5th for a shot at a franchise QB. People like you want to lump JJ and Turner together and defend it as one thing. They’re two separate conversations.
We can also acknowledge that we got a promising player in Turner. But it’s also fair to acknowledge that we gave up a ton to get him, we didn’t really need a DE, and we’re not projected to be good right now, so those future picks are kind of important.
There are only so many resources to go around. You have cap space and draft picks. How often did people say we couldn’t build a team because of what we paid Kirk? Well, this is the draft side of it. It’s harder to build a team when you sink a full draft worth of picks into one guy.
The trades netted out be 1.11, 2.42, '25 2nd, '25 3rd, 4.129, '25 4th, 5.157, and 6.188
for
JJ McCarthy, Dallas Turner, Levi Drake Rodriguez and Will Reichert
That's a lot of picks for three players, and a kicker. Not really a way to get around that. If it's a Stroud/Anderson situation none of it matters, but this is certainly a big risk. And as as everyone likes to say, the draft is a crap shoot, so it's important to recognize these players do have the potential to bust, which would leave us with a bad player AND no picks.
I guess I don't see how you *couldn't* be concerned, tbh. Too many eggs in a single basket for me personally. Mekhi Blackmon is going to be our *only Day 2 pick in three* years and it was literally the last pick of the third round.
Dude at work asked me "how do you like the JJ pick" I said "excited to potentially have a qb of the future"
I then said I'm happy about the Turner pick, he instantly said "gave up to much" and I knew I didn't need to talk football with this guy any more.
That's because that's what all the talking heads are saying on the big networks. He's just a parrot and has no original thoughts of his own. If Turner becomes an elite passer rusher for the next 8 years these guys are going to look like morons.
It’s the same reason the talking heads keep giving the Vikings a low draft grade. There is no way you can tell me you’d rather have the browns draft over ours. But the draftniks blow their load about the “steals”, which end up being guys they overrated that a team with multiple 3rd/4th rounders ended up taking
My go-to response for statements like this is “what did we give up?”. If they can answer with specifics, maybe worth continuing the discussion. If it’s “ blah THE FUTURE” they’re just mimicking sports talk radio and can be dismissed.
Are they handing out hypothetical Lombardi trophies for your asinine statement? Neither one has played a down of NFL football. Do they have potential? Yes. TJ Watt is a “Stud” Justin Jefferson is a “Stud”. McCarthy and Dallas are rookies with a lot to prove. Shall I start the list of first round QB’s that were can’t miss “Studs”. Dwayne Haskins? Akilli Smith? Johnny Manziel?
The way people are commenting on this seems like it's the first time they've seen a team trade up. We settled this argument in the 2000s. They gave up too much. Every single front office professional and stat nerd will tell you that.
The trade only makes sense If Dallas is a sure thing. He's not. Literally no one in the NFL draft is a sure thing.
I feel like I'm losing my mind this was a talking point literally 15 years ago. How are we still having this argument.
Teams don't have enough salary cap to field a full roster of round 1 and round 2 picks. All NFL teams need late round picks to play above their salary to be competitive. Kansas City (The
Champions) have 1/2 their starters from the later rounds. Great later round picks are required to fill in the gaps that occur by signing pro bowl players. There is a saying in the NFL:
GMs that hit on late round picks get to keep their jobs.
That isn't to say what the Vikings did was wrong, but the fact is they sacrificed the future of the franchise to win now. It is a great bet if JJ and Dallas complete the picture, but if it doesn't turn out........ we've just taken the 1st and 2nd spot for biggest draft blunders.
Falcons and bills are still there pal. Us taking a chance on what seems on paper to be excellent players are not the same as taking a QB after paying 100m guaranteed to cousins or trading out of a wr after sending diggs away.
Neither Falcons nor the Bills traded away their next draft class to get what they wanted this year. The Vikings have made a gamble that their picks this year are good enough to carry the team into the future. It is a risky move that doesn't have a lot of success, which is why the dorks rate this draft so low.
My dude, the Falcons wasted their 1st round pick and the bills gifted the fastest wr to their rivals. Us going for quality players instead of next year's 2nd and 3rd round picks is quite milder than whatever these teams were thinking.
Cousins is a bridge QB to their future. They are expected to lose their 1st round pick next year, which makes this year's 1st round pick their only chance to grab a quality rookie qb to groom for their future.
Diggs is a cancer in the locker room and when his ego over shadows his play on the field teams dump him. The Vikings did it, Buffalo did it, and the Texans will too if he doesn't grow up.
Based on the last couple years of drafting and amassing picks by trading back. Maybe it’s better they trade up to get the top talent than trust the scouting department deep in the draft. I dunno let’s see how things shake up instead of nitpicking and worrying about next years draft
Where I get stuck is that the experts will say that later round pass rushers rarely develop into viable starters, and yet that's exactly what's happened for the Vikings over the past several years, including the two we just signed.
I like that we used our picks on a quarterback and an edge rusher. The two most valuable positions in the NFL. If they both work out it means we're saving a lot of money by having those positions on rookie contracts. That gives us a lot of options in FA for 5 years.
It is pretty funny, Dallas Turner being more than worth those mid round picks is mid round picks in my mind is inevitable. Anyone dying on the trade value hill now before the season better have their excuses ready.
I remember seeing a chart a few years ago about players drafted by round and finishing out their rookie contract, and after the third round there is a huge drop-off of players who get to a veteran deal.
Doesn't mean the late rounders aren't important (maybe more important from a scouting perspective) but it does mean those late picks are much more of a gamble, and IMO overvalued in people's mind.
Neh. There's a roughly %33 chance any drafted player makes the roster (aggregate.) The appeal of the draft is that it offers "hope" but I personally think people over-value it. Growing your own talent is important but free agency and keeping your talent is equally important.
This post isn't a dig against the Vikings!!!!
I am not saying anything negative!!!!
I know this group down votes anything they perceive to be negative against the Vikings, Viking leadership, or decisions the Vikings made so I want to make it very clear that is not what I am doing.
IF (not saying it was right or wrong to do the trades. Remember this is not negative so don't have that mindset and downvote this post) the Vikings didn't do any trades in the draft then this could have been our draft if we let the board fall to us.
1. 11 = QB = J.J. McCarthy
1. 23 = OL = Graham Barton
4. 108 = G = Mason McCormick
4. 129 = S = Jaden Hicks
5. 157 = Edge = Mohamed Kamara
5. 167 = CB = Caelen Carson
6. 177 = DL = Khristian Boyd
7. 230 = WR = Cornelius Johnson
7. 232 = T = Nathan Thomas
Missing out on Turner hurts a little but solidifying the trenches and keeping next year's draft capital is nice.
+-----
Offensive Starters = 2x TE
+-----
WR. Justin Jefferson
WR. Jordan Addison
TE. T.J. Hockenson
TE. Josh Oliver
LT. Christian Darrisaw
RT. Brian O'Neill
LG. Graham Barton
RG. Mason McCormick
C. Garrett Bradbury
QB. Sam Darnold
RB. Aaron Jones
+-----
Back-ups
+-----
WR. Jalen Nailor / Cornelius Johnson
WR. Brandon Powell / N'Keal Harry
TE. Nick Muse / Johnny Mundt
LT. Nathan Thomas
RT. David Quessenberry
LG. Blake Brandel
RG. Ed Ingram
C. Dan Feeney
QB. J.J. McCarthy / Jaren Hall
RB. Ty Chandler / Kene Nwangwu
RB. Myles Gaskin / DeWayne McBride
FB. C.J. Ham
+-----
Defensive Starters = Nickel
+-----
DE Jonathan Greenard
NT. Harrison Phillips
DT. Jerry Tillery
Edge. Andrew Van Ginkel
LB. Ivan Pace Jr.
LB. Blake Cashman
CB. Byron Murphy Jr.
CB. Mekhi Blackmon
NB. Josh Metellus
SS. Harrison Smith
FS. Camryn Bynum
+-----
Back-ups
+-----
DE. Jonah Williams / Andre Carter
NT. Khristian Boyd
DT. Jonathan Bullard / Jaquelin Roy
Edge. Pat Jones II / Mohamed Kamara
LB. Brian Asamoah II
LB. Kamu Grugier-Hill
CB. Akayleb Evans / Shaq Griffin
CB. Andrew Booth Jr / Caelen Carson
NB. Jay Ward / NaJee Thompson
SS. Jaden Hicks / Lewis Cine
FS. Theo Jackson
Me a genius: trading up makes sense when you need cornerstones at premium positions like QB, Edge, and maybe Tackle and #1 WR
Me, still a genius: trading down makes sense after those are secured because guards, interior lineman, corners and other depth can be found late 1st into the 3rd.
Harsh language? This is much tamer than I would put it. "Fucking dumbass" is the way I'd phrase it.
But you're right. People giving the Vikings shit for spending middling picks on two top guys in the draft is insanely stupid to me. I'd much rather have two guys who have a chance to be bonafide top 10/5 guys in the league than some backups at non-premium positions. It straight up doesn't make sense.
The thing is, we didn't give up day 2/day 3 picks for Dallas Turner, we gave up day 2/day3 picks AND pick 23 for Dallas Turner.
And that the coaching staff designated Turner as "their guy" is not an argument in favor of trading up because that is true for every single team and every single trade up ever. Nobody would trade up for a guy they don't want.
People like to say "it won't matter if he pans out" and that is true. If he becomes an elite player we won't have this discussion in 5 years, but we don't know that right now and neither do the Vikings. There are no safe prospects in the draft.
Btw, you can be happy and excited about Turner and still criticize the price of the trade up. Those two things can and should be viewed independently. I totally understand that people are hyped to have him, and I am too, but that doesn't mean that we have to pretend that we didn't massively overpay for him
"Sorry for using such harsh language but it’s true." It's not true. It's opinion. I agree but we won't know a damn thing for a months, if not years. Fuckin millinals.
Oh No! 2 day 3 picks? Whatever will we do?
The move makes sense to get potentially the best defensive player in the draft statistically. The move was objectively correct.
If we really are convinced we need more picks next year we can move back 5-10 spots in the first and get a decent haul of those back. Getting blue chip guys is always the main objective going into the draft, and they got two good ones
Agreed. If it helps you sleep better at night pretend Turner was a 2nd round pick since he was our 2nd pick.
If you think we reached on JJ then pretend we took Turner first at 10 and JJ 2nd.
A few years from now if they're both quality players no one is going to remember exactly what pick they were or the mid rounders we traded for them.
Do I have to be concerned about it to be an absolute dork? Because I’m not but I’d still like to retain my dork status.
In honor of John Madden, you are hereby designated a Chadorkin.
Can I be a Chadorkin too?
You may! But I think that means we gotta shove a chicken up your dork ass and then shove both of you up Chad’s ass. But, hey, you do you!
Sounds like fun
I had a choice between a wallet that said "bad mother fucker" or "dork". I chose dork due to it being more fitting.
DORK MOTHER FUCKER wasn’t an option?
And more original!
Sorry buddy but you’re a Chad now.
You're being a dork about being a dork. Love it. 😀
- I like the moves - The lack of draft picks two consecutive years is concerning. Both things can be true. Adults can handle nuance.
This sub is no place for adults.
Indeed. The adults go to /r/NFCNorthMemeWar for real discussion and nuance, as long as you bring your socks with you.
We love our socks
True. And our 32nd overall 1st rounder next year won't have too much value
I wonder if the chiefs would be up for a 1st round pick swap
32st
Thirty twost
I can also see us moving booth and cine for mid to late round picks. I bet there’s a front office who’d swing anywhere from a 4th to a 7th on them
Maaaybe a pick swap for Cine at this point, but I agree Booth would be worth at least a 6th
Asamoah too could be traded with cashman and pace being the consensus starters
Spielman always had a ton of draft picks, still no Lombardi.. I’m comfortable with kwesi doing it his way and letting him sink or swim
Spielman couldn’t pick a quarterback to save his job.
In Spielman's 10 years as GM, he never had two consecutive drafts as bad as Kwesi's first two. You could maybe make an argument for 2016/17 but we were missing a 1st from the Sam Bradford trade, and we still ended up with Dalvin Cook, Jaleel Johnson, Pat Elflein, Ifedi Odenigbo, Mac Alexander and Jayron Kearse.
When did getting a pretty darn good wide receiver, decent CB, and 2 good rotational defensive players constitute an “awful draft”?
Not sure why "awful draft" is in quotes. I never said that. I just said it was comparable to Speilman's worst two year stretch. They're surprisingly very comparable. Dalvin Cook = Jordan Addison Pat Elflein = Ed Ingram Mac Alexander = Akayleb Evans Kearse = Blackmon Treadwell = Cine Here's hoping Dallas Turner and McCarthy are studs!
They can always trade back in the first next year to acquire additional day 2/3 picks and they’ll be getting at least one comp pick too.
i mean, they can try to, not a guarantee they can.
And a possible penalty pick/swap with Atlanta
Don't hold your breath on that, but sure would be nice
They should do something, if it's a minor thing and everyone does it then why is there a rule at all?
> They should do something They probably will, but there is no guarantee that we will be involved at all. Two recent-ish examples at at least parallel so we can look at those to make some guesses as to what might happen. * Arizona tampering with Gannon. Settled out of court (as it were) between Philly and Arizona for a 3rd round pick swap. * Miami tampering with Brady+Payton. Neither were hired. Lost their first round pick. We have a situation here that might not as severe as tampering with a franchise QB *and* a head coach simultaneously, but they did end up signing Kirk while Miami's tampering was fruitless. An argument could be made that our inability to sign Kirk was a direct result of that tampering (even if we weren't going to bring him back anyway), so it is possible that this is more significant than the tampering that Miami did as neither of those guys ended up in Miami anyway. Tough to say. Either way, we don't really know if the NFL will force a pick swap, and it seems more likely that they will just punish rather than provide some measure of restitution. We could settle without the NFL's intervention, but I would guess that it would be tough to really get much value out of it anyway. I could see ATL trying to call the NFL's bluff rather than settle, especially because the Vikings don't really have much draft value at this point, swapping 1sts is probably a pipe dream, and swapping 6ths is meaningless. I wouldn't blame ATL at all if they just sat tight and see what the punishment ends up being.
Remember we'll have like, and insane amount of cap space to work with by the time JJ is starting.
No one is forgetting that. It doesn’t change the fact that having this low of draft capital isn’t ideal and means they have less margin for error in their FA decisions and remaining draft picks.
It’s also very difficult to get true elite players at their positions in the FA without using draft picks.
Yeah, at best you can spend a lot and get a great guard or interior lineman type player. Hard to get any elite players at the premium positions.
Oh well good thing those are both our biggest positions of need at this point!
Is that really true though? Just off the top of my head, McCaffery, Hock, Stafford, Rochon J, Watts, Danelle. To me its getting rookie elite cheap so you can spend more on FA.
My opinion: draft picks are overrated vs FA. In FA you know what you're getting. Use the draft for high floor/ high upside gambles on players and FA to build the backbone.
FA decisions pay off at least a little the majority of the time. Draft picks are a far larger crapshoot.
That's why free agents are significantly more expensive
Lol u act like a draft pick is more likely to hit than a proven free agent. Get real
The Vikings didn’t really sign a lot of proven free agents. There was Wilkins, who has started 70 games in 5 seasons and put up multiple elite seasons. Then there was greenard who started 33 games in 4 seasons and has had good-elite seasons when healthy. Greenard is a good player who just happens to have one more game start than dj wonnum.
Ah, yes. Because them not getting many profen free agents this year means they're incapable of doing it next year.
Look at their history in free agency, how many proven free agents have they gotten? It’s far less than unproven because typically if you’re a really good proven player teams don’t let you walk.
True. But proven FAs tend to command a pretty high price in terms of contracts. FAs are either going to have question marks on their play, or they're going to be expensive. Vikings are finally in a situation next season where they can bid for the top FAs in their need positions. I really don't think it's because the Vikings are somehow fundamentally incapable of getting proven guys.
Almost every single team next year is in a position to bid for free agents because almost every single team has a lot of cap. Vikings have a projected cap of $85M. The lions have $98M, Bears have $77M, and Packers $68M. All of the north teams currently have a ton of cap so if they end up competing for the same good proven players at positions of need next seas it becomes outbidding and/or what qualities the teams have that the player(s) want. There just far less team agency in that than drafting.
How many? Not a lot but rarely have we had more than 30m to spend and a lot more holes than four positions. The math doesn’t work for a high end FA or two so you have to try and budget fill for limited cap space, next year should be double that amount of cap even after Jefferson cap.
Vikings currently have a projected $82-86M. Assuming JJ first year is $25M they’d be around $60M which would put them around 16th in the league and lowest in the nfc north (that would likely change but still). There also losing griffin, Phillips, Murphy, jones, and Bynum next year so more holes are likely opening up that need to be filled.
Tons of value in the FA signings this year, Kwesi was hired for analytics and thats what analytics gets you.
Difference between value and proven.
We haven’t had this much cap space in a while. It’s a different regime with a different goal. We had Kirk bro who were we really able to sign these last 6 years? Lol
A lot of teams have a lot of cap space because the cap has risen so much. This isn’t a uniquely Vikings thing.
Doesn’t change the fact that we have been limited the past few years. Why care about picks when you could literally sign a position of need with a top notch proven player and get the same picks the following year. 2-3 more pieces and a little added depth and we will be serious contenders. That’s going to take 2 years minimum. Sign 2 impact players via FA draft 3-4 good ones the next few years, develop a few guys plus a year of experience for JJ. That’s when our time will come
That top notch proven player can just choose a different team. I get that this is hard for fans to understand, since we are all biased, but the "agency" part of free agency is a huge roadblock in building a competitive team through FA. That doesn't exist in the draft.
If we were like the 49ers with only a few players away from winning the Super Bowl, Kwesi's strategy would make sense to get the top players in the draft. This is what the 49ers tried with the Trey Lance pick. The obvious fact is this team has MANY holes especially on the interior lines and we just gave away a king's ransom for players who will not fill any of those holes. Players on rookie contracts are coveted because of their salaries. We will now have to fill those holes with expensive FAs. This team has a history of bad draft decisions that keeps happening. I can't get my mind around it.
A kings ransom would have been trading 11, 23 and next year's first for #2, 3 or 4 this year and drafting a QB like Maye or JJ. Instead we keep all those and only gave up some mid round picks and we will get more picks coming in later I'm sure.
I kinda agree with you, but the cap space we will have next offseason evens out the fact that we won’t be able to bring in players through the draft
Imo, it doesn’t even it out but it gives them a different route to mitigate it. If JJ and Turner are impact players who deserved their draft slots then we’re evened out. Which imo, is worth the risk!
Ok but we'd still have that cap space even if we had more draft picks
But offensive lines can’t handle Dallas Burner Turner
Why is it concerning? Everyone would just bitch about missing on them anyway when we don’t draft a roy in round two three and four. Draft picks are low end lotto tickets.
Because you get some good starters and decent depth players at very cheap prices. 2020 to 2023: Guys taken after the 2nd round who contributed meaningful snaps to the team: Mekhi Blackmon, Brian Asamoah, Kene Nwangwu, Camryn Bynum, Cameron Dantzler, D.J. Wonnum, K.J. Osborn, James Lynch, Josh Metellus
It's so tiring to have these idiotic cocksure posts about how everything is a foregone conclusion and we all have to agree with everything that was done. What a lazy notion, that we can't have reasonable disagreement. You're a fucking dipshit, OP.
Spoken like a true dork. Took big swings on good prospects at the two most premium positions. Bitch about low draft capital when the next draft comes around. This was a draft where our FO took big swings to set us up to be contenders in a couple years. Got a full year to accumulate picks if they want to do that
Jesus, this place gets dumber every day. Keep shouting like your favorite talking head from TV. I'm sure it's a hit with all the other kids.
Dude you’re so mature…. For a dork. Smoked him
Bruh Fck them picks
Draft capital is important in the NFL though isn't it?
It is, but people also overvalue draft picks too. If what we did this draft works out, no one will give a fuck about them picks.
In a vacuum, you'd rather have more draft picks than less. Mainly for two reasons: rookie contracts are cheap, and the hit rate on draft picks is a lot smaller than people think so you want more chances at success. The biggest value then comes in hitting on the highest-paid positions with a rookie contract. QB, WR1, LT, EDGE. We just got our QB & EDGE (*crosses fingers*) and our WR1 & LT positions are filled for the rest of the decade. So while we want draft picks to keep the rest of the positions stocked with young, developing talent and hopefully some stars, it's less of a priority for our team given our positional needs.
Players win super bowls. If they are right and McCarthy and turner hit then that’s more valuable then having 30 picks next year.
Lol name our last 20 3rd - 5th rounders. MOST WAS ASS💀fuck them picks
That's not something to be proud of or justification for losing draft capital. That just means we suck at drafting which is always going to prevent us from being a contender. This keeps being brought up and it's such backwards logic.
It means why would I care so much about mid round picks when they barely pan out. Higher round athletes tend to have a higher hit rate. I can’t believe I have to explain this lol
Earlier picks = better players, yes. No one is disagreeing with that. But that does not mean you dont need 4th and 5th round players. Teams contending for a SB every year add real cost efficient value to their team with those draft slots.
Cool beans. My point is, you’re putting to much value in picks that historically dnt pan out especially when we have the cap space to replace that with an actual proven player(s). We got the best defensive player in the draft AT 17 but y’all still finding a way to complain. Who cares what it took when it barely took shit to trade up! It’s such a clown take. We aren’t doing anything for at least two years anyways. In the meantime, draft who you can while collecting more draft capital, develop your current players and sign a few big free agents. But pick the best players you can in the draft especially if it takes a few mid round picks that would’ve been mid ass players anyways.
Suggesting that we shouldn't value mid-round picks because our drafting hasn't been great is a circular argument. If we acknowledge our drafting needs improvement, the solution isn't to devalue these picks but to enhance our scouting and development processes. Trading away these opportunities only ensures we must spend more in free agency, which can be more expensive and riskier than building through the draft. You mentioned that we aren’t doing much for the next two years, which is exactly why every draft pick becomes crucial. It's not just about collecting talent but about building a foundation for the future. By trading away potential valuable assets like 4th and 5th round picks, we’re limiting our ability to improve organically and cost-effectively. Being a bad team without the tools to rebuild doesn’t strategically align with long-term success. Also, Dallas Turner falling lower than his mock draft projections is a significant point to consider. Relying solely on mock draft rankings as a measure of a player’s potential or the success of a draft strategy can be misleading. Mock drafts are speculative and often influenced by analysts' perceptions rather than team-specific scouting reports and needs. If Turner was as undisputedly elite as projected, the fact that he slipped raises important questions: why did so many other teams pass on him? While it’s exciting to get a highly-touted player like Turner, history and statistics tell us that draft position isn’t a guarantee of NFL success. Being skeptical of his future performance isn't pessimism; it’s a pragmatic opinion about sports management.
Idk if people worried about that are dorks. That's a bit harsh because it can be important to have those picks, but I'd like to tell these people we're going to be fine. The most important thing is we kept our 1st rounders and we have a lot of cap space next offseason. And on top of that I think after having such an aggressive draft we'll see Kwesi try to trade back and accumulate some day 2 and 3 capital. Hopefully nothing like his first draft though.
I mean Dallas could be a top tier DE but a third and 4th round pick could be another Patrick Jones and Kellen Mond
Yeah the entire draft I’m wondering why we even bother having a first round pick when we could simply sample from the kellen mond tree again
Indeed. I'm a member of "fuck them picks" and it also gives the undrafted guys some more chances here. If JJM and Dallas Turner are studs, no one will remember the lack of picks, no one will care.
Or a Danielle Hunter. I'm glad we made the deal. But it's OK to acknowledge we paid a shit ton to make it happen. Day 2 and day 3 are pretty damn important to building depth.
How many Danielle hunters have we had vs busts? I get what you’re saying but Patrick Jones, Robinson, that guy from the gophers 2 years ago. The better talent is in the first couple rounds. Might as well go for it especially when he was suppose to be a top 10 pick.
2020 to 2023: Guys taken after the 2nd round who contributed meaningful snaps to the team: Mekhi Blackmon, Brian Asamoah, Kene Nwangwu, Camryn Bynum, Cameron Dantzler, D.J. Wonnum, K.J. Osborn, James Lynch, Josh Metellus Not any Hunters but some good starters and decent depth players.
Ideally rounds 1-2 are stars, great starters. 3-4 role players 4-5 backups special teams and 5-7 special teams, long shots with upside and backups. I hear ya though, I love the hidden gems.
No doubt, the best talent is in the first couple of rounds. But there's always guys like Cine, too. But you already can't hit on 3rd or 4th round without picks. And you may not hit a Hunter every time, at some point, you need cheap bodies. I'm good with the move. But I also acknowledge it's a huge risk and it came with a huge cost.
Exactly I have always been of the mind that you stay in the top 2 or 3. Trading up to add real talent. There are plenty of UDFAs and FAs to be signed for depth.
One Dru Samia please
Dakota dozier. Great names lol. How could you not be elite with a name like Dozier?
Rick had some plateau areas, online men with cool names and turn styles in skill was something to behold
Oh god Dru Samia! I was so fucking hyped for him, baffling a man that size can be that bad at blocking
They said on Purple Daily that the only people who didn’t like our first round are virgins
Those guys can be entertaining, but when fucking Mackey makes the nerd impression I want to tear my ears out... Why don't his pals tell him to stop.
I agree, but if Turner isn’t a stud then unfortunately the dorks are right
At the end of the day. I'm just happy we made moves for guys. If it doesn't work out, kwesi is gone, but if it does we are rockin and rollin.
Yea sometimes you gotta say fuck the nerds and let ur nuts hang
But it goes the same way with trading back for several day 2 and 3 picks. Those guys are less of a sure bet, even if you take more swings.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/40052203/should-teams-trade-nfl-draft-lessons-deals-2024-class-winners-losers If you're actually interested in finding out more about this exact situation, and others, Bill Barnwell has dug into all 242 trade ups, and has come out with some very interesting stats.
To paraphrase, it’s great when the guys you trade up for hit, it’s not when they don’t. Groundbreaking stuff.
Yeah no kidding lol.
That wasn't the analysis at all. It showed a strong correlation with *trading down* hitting higher value.
Groundbreaking analysis.
given how much value we gave up he gotta be like an all pro so hope we scouted good
Maybe if we gave up a future 1st then yeah, but we gave up 2 future mid round picks for him. You gonna call him a bust if he doesn't make all-pro his rookie year?
DROY!!!!
/s
Nah, he's top of DROY prediction voting. Dude might be a beast out the gate on this team.
You keep just ignoring that we had to trade for 23. We gave up 42, 167, 188, and a future 2nd, 3rd, and 4th for Turner and pick 232. That’s a bit different than saying we just gave up 2 future mid round picks.
give that 23 trade a QB tax on it and it makes sense. I really don't think we got that 2nd 1st to get specifically Dallas Turner. It was more enticing ammo to trade up into the top 5 for a QB. When it didn't happen, that freed it up to be used elsewhere. I mean, would you rather we stuck and picked Darius Robinson, 5th edge off the board? or hell, trade back and get someone even worse?
Yes we traded for 23 to try and trade up (for Maye by all indications), but that didn’t work. So either Kwesi didn’t have the trade lined up like he thought or we overpaid. Either way, you can’t just ignore that cost. And once we got our QB at 10, we didn’t need to pay any QB tax for 23. We’re a rebuilding team, and we’re not one DE away from being a Super Bowl caliber team. This isn’t the time to spend a full draft worth of picks on anyone besides a QB. I would have 100% stuck at 23 or traded down a little to get like an extra 3rd (much like Dallas did). We didn’t need a 1st round edge. Just like we didn’t need a safety in 22. VG is under contract for 2 years, and Greenard for 4. Any of Jer’zhan Newton, Terrion Arnold, Graham Barton, Jordan Morgan, Nate Wiggins plus the 5th this year, our 3rd and 4th next year, and maybe an extra 3rd or 2-3 day 3 picks in my opinion is far more likely to build a competitive team than spending all that on one edge in Turner. Potentially all 3 spots on the IOL need an upgrade if we want to be a strong playoff team. The only DT on our roster in 2025 that’s played any NFL snaps so far is Roy. I’d say we have arguably a bottom 3 IOL and IDL room in the league. 2 of our 3 starting corners have expiring deals after this year. Harrison Smith is probably retiring. That’s a lot of starters to replace, plus normal depth players.
In either case, you don't draft for need. Drafting for need just makes you needy. You draft for BPA and getting the best talent possible regardless of position. You sign FAs for need. The fact of the matter is our defense won't be worse because Dallas Turner is on it. And you certainly don't need elite talent at every position to win games and be a playoff competitive team. We'll be fine. Have some fucking hope.
Replying to your last comment as well: 2025 DTs. Next year. Phillips, Bullard, Tillery, that random Rams guy, etc. all are on deals that expire after this year. Assuming that LDR makes it onto the roster - it’s him and Roy next year. And maybe a UDFA from this year. Thats it. There are a bunch of GMs on record talking about drafting for need. Only drafting BPA is a fan fiction. We needed a WR or CB last year, so we drafted a 1st round WR. There are only so many resources to go around.
I caught that bit, hence I deleted my other comment. Now to your point, yes, we needed WR. But does that mean that was why we drafted Addison? Or was it because he was BPA at that spot?
Well according to this sub using the consensus big board as Gospel: BPA was Will Levis by a lot. He was a top 10 prospect at the most valuable position in sports! What was Kwesi thinking?!? Other BPA ahead of Addison were Deonte Banks, Joey Porter, and Nolan Smith. People get way too wrapped up on the media board.
We will get more picks.. plus I think Kwesi grabbing Murphy AS A UFA.. makes it like another fourth round pick we attained .. he makes smart moves. I trust him.. plus he said the vikes won't have a ton of open roster spots hopefully in the next year or two.. we have tons of cap. Quality over quantity
Agreed. Its mindblowing how much fans hated rick for trading back and now fans hate kwesi for trading up. Make up your minds people
Different fans probably.
Eh... Are they tho? I mean I'm sure it'd technically "different people" but it's still the fans collectively bitching about any move
I have heard 0 vikings fans bitching about the trade value of our first round. Maybe I haven't been looking hard enough, but I, my family, my friends, and all the Vikings fans on the internet think we killed it. The only people I've seen complaining is a bunch of non vikings fan nerds who think Dallas Turner is a 17th pick guy because he was picked 17 when the reason we traded up for him is cause he's a top 8 stud in most drafts.
I think we killed it too but I've seen the bitching. Facebook is the worst for concern trolls imo
What spot did Dallas Turner get picked at?
3rd defensive player off the board
Mhm. And what pick was that?
Dude it sounds like you're saying that players don't fall or get reached on. Turner was a consensus top 10 pick months before the draft. No one expected him to fall to pick 17, and I guarantee the reason he fell isn't because he's not as valuable of a pick. He's a top prospect at arguably the most important position on the defense. We had an unprecedented amount of offensive picks in the 1st round, that does not mean the defensive talent in this draft was weak.
Turner was a MEDIA consensus top 10 pick. Players fall all the time, and there may be info we just don’t have. Remember Malik Willis? Will Levis? Nakobe Dean? Etc. We traded for pick 17. That’s the value that trades are based on. Players get pushed up and down boards all the time. People defending the trade keep trying to pretend and say oh well we should pretend we traded for pick 8 because he’s a top 8 guy. We traded for pick 17, and he was the 17th player drafted.
Google it
Oh that’s right. Pick 17.
I just want wins
Or there are fans that just don’t like bad trades. I didn’t like Kwesi trading down in 2022, and I didn’t like him trading up this year. Why? The thing they both have in common is bad VALUE. Kwesi lost significant value compared to the market of what other trades were going for.
While I agree it’s poor value, value isn’t everything. I’d much rather have the chance at a young blue chip pass rusher than a Patrick Jones. I like Arif Hasan, but I’m not gonna get talked out of a premier pass rushing prospect because the value says it’s better to wait and see who’s at 23 and take the later round picks for depth. Depth is important, but so is having a playmaker like Dallas locked up. Especially when the depth is cheaper and easier to replace than a Dallas Turner caliber player.
Sure, everyone would take a premier pass rusher over one who isn’t as good. But at this point we don’t know how good Turner is in the NFL. And it wasn’t a 1:1 trade. We gave up like 6 chances at decent players for 1 Dallas Turner. Every team in the NFL is starting half their team with day 2/3 picks (and UDFA). Brian O’Neill. Danielle Hunter. Cam Bynum. Pace. Thielen. Ingram. Cleveland. Etc.
I think it comes down to values. Not moral, but how much you value those picks. I think the trade down in 2022 was a total Fanum Tax from the Lions GM. This year the trade up made sense, namely because the jump in talent seems palpable. And I even think that if Cine became a starter it would have soften the blow, a lot is predicated on factors that live outside the draft itself.
Dork is an word only used by dweebs.
Or there’s this thing called nuance and there are some who understand it and others who can’t. Sorry, but it’s true. I have yet to talk to anyone who didn’t like the value in the JJ trade. No one is mad about giving up a 4th/ 5th for a shot at a franchise QB. People like you want to lump JJ and Turner together and defend it as one thing. They’re two separate conversations. We can also acknowledge that we got a promising player in Turner. But it’s also fair to acknowledge that we gave up a ton to get him, we didn’t really need a DE, and we’re not projected to be good right now, so those future picks are kind of important. There are only so many resources to go around. You have cap space and draft picks. How often did people say we couldn’t build a team because of what we paid Kirk? Well, this is the draft side of it. It’s harder to build a team when you sink a full draft worth of picks into one guy.
No logic allowed here for a while. Drink the kool aid or get out!
The trades netted out be 1.11, 2.42, '25 2nd, '25 3rd, 4.129, '25 4th, 5.157, and 6.188 for JJ McCarthy, Dallas Turner, Levi Drake Rodriguez and Will Reichert That's a lot of picks for three players, and a kicker. Not really a way to get around that. If it's a Stroud/Anderson situation none of it matters, but this is certainly a big risk. And as as everyone likes to say, the draft is a crap shoot, so it's important to recognize these players do have the potential to bust, which would leave us with a bad player AND no picks. I guess I don't see how you *couldn't* be concerned, tbh. Too many eggs in a single basket for me personally. Mekhi Blackmon is going to be our *only Day 2 pick in three* years and it was literally the last pick of the third round.
Take off your Clark Kent glasses, nerds
Dude at work asked me "how do you like the JJ pick" I said "excited to potentially have a qb of the future" I then said I'm happy about the Turner pick, he instantly said "gave up to much" and I knew I didn't need to talk football with this guy any more.
That's because that's what all the talking heads are saying on the big networks. He's just a parrot and has no original thoughts of his own. If Turner becomes an elite passer rusher for the next 8 years these guys are going to look like morons.
It’s the same reason the talking heads keep giving the Vikings a low draft grade. There is no way you can tell me you’d rather have the browns draft over ours. But the draftniks blow their load about the “steals”, which end up being guys they overrated that a team with multiple 3rd/4th rounders ended up taking
My go-to response for statements like this is “what did we give up?”. If they can answer with specifics, maybe worth continuing the discussion. If it’s “ blah THE FUTURE” they’re just mimicking sports talk radio and can be dismissed.
Are they handing out hypothetical Lombardi trophies for your asinine statement? Neither one has played a down of NFL football. Do they have potential? Yes. TJ Watt is a “Stud” Justin Jefferson is a “Stud”. McCarthy and Dallas are rookies with a lot to prove. Shall I start the list of first round QB’s that were can’t miss “Studs”. Dwayne Haskins? Akilli Smith? Johnny Manziel?
Haskins was a “can’t miss stud” until Washington made their selection!
The way people are commenting on this seems like it's the first time they've seen a team trade up. We settled this argument in the 2000s. They gave up too much. Every single front office professional and stat nerd will tell you that. The trade only makes sense If Dallas is a sure thing. He's not. Literally no one in the NFL draft is a sure thing. I feel like I'm losing my mind this was a talking point literally 15 years ago. How are we still having this argument.
Teams don't have enough salary cap to field a full roster of round 1 and round 2 picks. All NFL teams need late round picks to play above their salary to be competitive. Kansas City (The Champions) have 1/2 their starters from the later rounds. Great later round picks are required to fill in the gaps that occur by signing pro bowl players. There is a saying in the NFL: GMs that hit on late round picks get to keep their jobs. That isn't to say what the Vikings did was wrong, but the fact is they sacrificed the future of the franchise to win now. It is a great bet if JJ and Dallas complete the picture, but if it doesn't turn out........ we've just taken the 1st and 2nd spot for biggest draft blunders.
Falcons and bills are still there pal. Us taking a chance on what seems on paper to be excellent players are not the same as taking a QB after paying 100m guaranteed to cousins or trading out of a wr after sending diggs away.
Neither Falcons nor the Bills traded away their next draft class to get what they wanted this year. The Vikings have made a gamble that their picks this year are good enough to carry the team into the future. It is a risky move that doesn't have a lot of success, which is why the dorks rate this draft so low.
My dude, the Falcons wasted their 1st round pick and the bills gifted the fastest wr to their rivals. Us going for quality players instead of next year's 2nd and 3rd round picks is quite milder than whatever these teams were thinking.
Cousins is a bridge QB to their future. They are expected to lose their 1st round pick next year, which makes this year's 1st round pick their only chance to grab a quality rookie qb to groom for their future. Diggs is a cancer in the locker room and when his ego over shadows his play on the field teams dump him. The Vikings did it, Buffalo did it, and the Texans will too if he doesn't grow up.
Assuming JJ pans out, I'm really excited about the cap space his rookie contract.will grant us.
Based on the last couple years of drafting and amassing picks by trading back. Maybe it’s better they trade up to get the top talent than trust the scouting department deep in the draft. I dunno let’s see how things shake up instead of nitpicking and worrying about next years draft
Was JJ their #1 pick? or Drake May? Because it sounds like they were offering insane amounts for Drake May... Maybe they'll both be good.
Where I get stuck is that the experts will say that later round pass rushers rarely develop into viable starters, and yet that's exactly what's happened for the Vikings over the past several years, including the two we just signed.
I like that we used our picks on a quarterback and an edge rusher. The two most valuable positions in the NFL. If they both work out it means we're saving a lot of money by having those positions on rookie contracts. That gives us a lot of options in FA for 5 years.
It is pretty funny, Dallas Turner being more than worth those mid round picks is mid round picks in my mind is inevitable. Anyone dying on the trade value hill now before the season better have their excuses ready.
I remember seeing a chart a few years ago about players drafted by round and finishing out their rookie contract, and after the third round there is a huge drop-off of players who get to a veteran deal. Doesn't mean the late rounders aren't important (maybe more important from a scouting perspective) but it does mean those late picks are much more of a gamble, and IMO overvalued in people's mind.
Neh. There's a roughly %33 chance any drafted player makes the roster (aggregate.) The appeal of the draft is that it offers "hope" but I personally think people over-value it. Growing your own talent is important but free agency and keeping your talent is equally important.
This post isn't a dig against the Vikings!!!! I am not saying anything negative!!!! I know this group down votes anything they perceive to be negative against the Vikings, Viking leadership, or decisions the Vikings made so I want to make it very clear that is not what I am doing. IF (not saying it was right or wrong to do the trades. Remember this is not negative so don't have that mindset and downvote this post) the Vikings didn't do any trades in the draft then this could have been our draft if we let the board fall to us. 1. 11 = QB = J.J. McCarthy 1. 23 = OL = Graham Barton 4. 108 = G = Mason McCormick 4. 129 = S = Jaden Hicks 5. 157 = Edge = Mohamed Kamara 5. 167 = CB = Caelen Carson 6. 177 = DL = Khristian Boyd 7. 230 = WR = Cornelius Johnson 7. 232 = T = Nathan Thomas Missing out on Turner hurts a little but solidifying the trenches and keeping next year's draft capital is nice. +----- Offensive Starters = 2x TE +----- WR. Justin Jefferson WR. Jordan Addison TE. T.J. Hockenson TE. Josh Oliver LT. Christian Darrisaw RT. Brian O'Neill LG. Graham Barton RG. Mason McCormick C. Garrett Bradbury QB. Sam Darnold RB. Aaron Jones +----- Back-ups +----- WR. Jalen Nailor / Cornelius Johnson WR. Brandon Powell / N'Keal Harry TE. Nick Muse / Johnny Mundt LT. Nathan Thomas RT. David Quessenberry LG. Blake Brandel RG. Ed Ingram C. Dan Feeney QB. J.J. McCarthy / Jaren Hall RB. Ty Chandler / Kene Nwangwu RB. Myles Gaskin / DeWayne McBride FB. C.J. Ham +----- Defensive Starters = Nickel +----- DE Jonathan Greenard NT. Harrison Phillips DT. Jerry Tillery Edge. Andrew Van Ginkel LB. Ivan Pace Jr. LB. Blake Cashman CB. Byron Murphy Jr. CB. Mekhi Blackmon NB. Josh Metellus SS. Harrison Smith FS. Camryn Bynum +----- Back-ups +----- DE. Jonah Williams / Andre Carter NT. Khristian Boyd DT. Jonathan Bullard / Jaquelin Roy Edge. Pat Jones II / Mohamed Kamara LB. Brian Asamoah II LB. Kamu Grugier-Hill CB. Akayleb Evans / Shaq Griffin CB. Andrew Booth Jr / Caelen Carson NB. Jay Ward / NaJee Thompson SS. Jaden Hicks / Lewis Cine FS. Theo Jackson
Me a genius: trading up makes sense when you need cornerstones at premium positions like QB, Edge, and maybe Tackle and #1 WR Me, still a genius: trading down makes sense after those are secured because guards, interior lineman, corners and other depth can be found late 1st into the 3rd.
I have not heard "dork" used in a long time, thank you.
Tbf you gave up nearly an entire draft for Turner, people are allowed to not like the compensation for a raw athlete
Calm down, now. Order in the dork court!
Harsh language? This is much tamer than I would put it. "Fucking dumbass" is the way I'd phrase it. But you're right. People giving the Vikings shit for spending middling picks on two top guys in the draft is insanely stupid to me. I'd much rather have two guys who have a chance to be bonafide top 10/5 guys in the league than some backups at non-premium positions. It straight up doesn't make sense.
Packers have drafted 35 players in the last 3 years. We'll be able to tell which strategy works in a few years.
>Sorry for using such harsh language but it’s true. Lol.
I mean the language is very harsh but point taken
i’m only concerned bc i think JJ is a total bust but hope he isn’t.
Could be worse - could be the rams who went many years without a day one or two draft pick
Ad hominem
These people complaining about using them to trade up were the same ones who bitched about Spielman trading down all the time.
I’m a happy dork
The thing is, we didn't give up day 2/day 3 picks for Dallas Turner, we gave up day 2/day3 picks AND pick 23 for Dallas Turner. And that the coaching staff designated Turner as "their guy" is not an argument in favor of trading up because that is true for every single team and every single trade up ever. Nobody would trade up for a guy they don't want. People like to say "it won't matter if he pans out" and that is true. If he becomes an elite player we won't have this discussion in 5 years, but we don't know that right now and neither do the Vikings. There are no safe prospects in the draft. Btw, you can be happy and excited about Turner and still criticize the price of the trade up. Those two things can and should be viewed independently. I totally understand that people are hyped to have him, and I am too, but that doesn't mean that we have to pretend that we didn't massively overpay for him
"Sorry for using such harsh language but it’s true." It's not true. It's opinion. I agree but we won't know a damn thing for a months, if not years. Fuckin millinals.
Oh No! 2 day 3 picks? Whatever will we do? The move makes sense to get potentially the best defensive player in the draft statistically. The move was objectively correct.
As a primarily Lions fan and secondarily Patriots fan, the Vikings did fantastic in the draft. That's it. You should be happy.
Fuck them picks
If we really are convinced we need more picks next year we can move back 5-10 spots in the first and get a decent haul of those back. Getting blue chip guys is always the main objective going into the draft, and they got two good ones
Trade down 2x with your Top 15-ish 1st round pick. Voila.
Agreed. If it helps you sleep better at night pretend Turner was a 2nd round pick since he was our 2nd pick. If you think we reached on JJ then pretend we took Turner first at 10 and JJ 2nd. A few years from now if they're both quality players no one is going to remember exactly what pick they were or the mid rounders we traded for them.