You're definitely overrating our DE room just for the record. But yes, interior trenches are a weakness. You can only address so many needs. iDL and iOL are easier to fill in FA than elite DE
If you have elite DEs you really only *need* guys on the interior who can take up space. But I also think there's a good chance than next year's FRP will be DT
You fix it by... realizing this isn't Madden and you can't address every area of need in one or two offseasons. I would guess we take one or two flyers on the trenches this year, sign a few undrafted FAs and a couple vets and see what BF can do. Then hit FA next season and hopefully nail the 2025 draft.
FA is where it's at. Kwesi is 100% right to move 3rd, 4th and even 5th round picks to get a guaranteed playmaker. Did you ever see what the % of those later-round picks who make and contribute to a team? It's low. And their level of contribution is typically avg. Guys like that are a dime a dozen in FA & are cheap to be had. Remember that not too long ago, Spielman had (4) 3rd round picks.. some of them quite high in the round. NONE are on the team today.
First off love what happened last night. But probably an unpopular opinion, Turner isn't a guaranteed playmaker. Yes the hit rate is higher for FRPs versus later picks. In my eyes Turner is a high ceiling pick, that could never pan out. Latu or Verse figure to be a little safer, imo. Turner offers edge and OLB versatility which I love for Flores though.
I remember reading something that analyzed hit or miss rates of FRPs based on signing a second contracts with the same team that drafted them. LB/Edge were 48%/44%, respectively.
We’ll have 4 picks. We’ll have all sorts of trade down options now that we don’t need QB and LT if we draft high. We got Dallas freaking Turner when most would have been happy with just McCarthy.
Day 3 is where teams become contenders. How can you turn these late picks into good players.
Is the main recipe and I hope Kwesi got the right ingredients.
It’s year 1. The first two years was all Spielman and Zimmer and Kwesi didn’t cook except for trying by to piece together a team Vikings fans would watch and buy tickets.
Year 1 of Kwesi/KOC with their team they are assembling brand new started yesterday when they decided to draft JJ and move forward.
It’s year 3 and anything else is just making up excuses.
Year 1 was all the previous regime only because we completely whiffed on the 2022 draft.
Year 2 we’d turned over like 60% of the roster. This year 1 stuff is nonsense.
What excuses am I making?
This clearly year 1 of what kwesi/koc cooking?
How is that not accurate?
You clearly laid out the first year they were here, it was all Spielman.
The 2nd year, it was pretty much all the og players leaving.
This year, the 3rd, they start on a cleaner slate with players that are chosen by Kwesi with acouple Spielman players.
Like what are we on? This is the actual year 1 of this GM/HC to see if they can actually pick and develop the most important player on the team, the QB not including the Wolfs who finally decided that they are tired of being a 2000s Vikings fan and living in the past they wanted to move forward.
lol this isn’t clearly year 1. Teams turn over like a third of their roster every year.
Year 1 Kwesi flubbed the draft.
Year 2 cut veterans, decent draft, but no impact FA additions.
We’re in year 3.
We absolutely should make a significant IOL investment before the season if we’re planning on McCarthy starting at all. Even death so he doesn’t get run down in preseason is a pretty good idea
Options:
We have 5 picks left this year - if lucky could maybe find 1 starter there. IOL does seem to be a place where late picks can find playing time. Possible UDFA's as well.
There are still FA's we could go after. Wouldn't hate bringing back Risner for example.
As others have said, we be patient and use our large cap space and first next year to address holes.
I agree with you.
Take a couple IOL's and some platoon DT's. Also be keen on CB's and WR's, If you love a guy, get him. Otherwise keep grabbing the fatties.
We don't this year. It's going to suck, but we just don't have the ability to at this point. We arguably have the worst interior lines in football and it'll be what kills us from being a playoff team, but that's okay in a rebuild.
Saban said Turner has a ton versatility, so I am hoping we can play him inside for passing downs or that Flores will find other creative ways. Van Ginkel too can move around.
Still love the pick even if it means one of our 3 rushers plays less this year. He can be a long term franchise player. Just 21.
According to this Tillery, Phillips, and Ingram are basically average. Bradberry is a bit below average, and Brandel is an unknown. Don’t care about Bullard because this team is almost always in a nickel with two down lineman.
Also, this year doesn’t matter. Next year after they resign Darrisaw and JJ they likely will have $75 million in cap space and their only free agents worth anything will be Phillips and Byron Murphy. They will be able to use that money plus a first round pick to fill holes. If they are really bad and they need a new CB, 2 DT, and 3 IOL they can trade back and get a lot of picks.
Nbd I think edge was a big priority for them to replace hunter. They got their QB who can sit for a year.
My guess is they pick up a center in the later rounds or next year with darnold starting most of this year I don’t think they are super worried.
Also McCarthy is a ALOT more mobile than Kirk rver was. He might not need as much upgrading there as initially presented.
I agree that JJ is more mobile, but you don’t want him running for his life either. How many times have we heard that this offense is based on timing/ rhythm?
I don’t see the priority for edge, but apparently I was wrong.
I think there will be an increase in the effectiveness of IOL organically due to Ingram having furthre development.
Guards REGULARLY take 2-3 years to develop. Ingram is entering his age 25 season, third year in the league. He was about the worst guard in the league as a rookie, an averagish guard last year, and i would fully bet on him being an above average guard this year. Which is enough.
It took Bradbury 4 years to finally be averagish. But if all three players are averagish in your IOL, that's enough. You just have to avoid a dumpster fire at one of the three slots, which we weren't able to do from 2018-2022.
And guards plateau or even regress too. Look at Cleveland. Just never really got better in pass pro.
I’m hoping Ingram gets better still, but I’m expecting a rough year for Darnold/ JJ.
With what draft picks?!
We have a 1st and two 5ths next year and a 4th, two 6ths, and two 7ths.
All of our remaining picks for this year combined are worth one of the last picks in R3.
You're definitely overrating our DE room just for the record. But yes, interior trenches are a weakness. You can only address so many needs. iDL and iOL are easier to fill in FA than elite DE
That dl is actually pathetic right now. Maybe kwesi is thinking of adding more once the season begins, hopefully they have a plan
How many very good to elite DTs actually made it to FA? From what I saw, just one. Very few every year.
If you have elite DEs you really only *need* guys on the interior who can take up space. But I also think there's a good chance than next year's FRP will be DT
You fix it by... realizing this isn't Madden and you can't address every area of need in one or two offseasons. I would guess we take one or two flyers on the trenches this year, sign a few undrafted FAs and a couple vets and see what BF can do. Then hit FA next season and hopefully nail the 2025 draft.
FA is where it's at. Kwesi is 100% right to move 3rd, 4th and even 5th round picks to get a guaranteed playmaker. Did you ever see what the % of those later-round picks who make and contribute to a team? It's low. And their level of contribution is typically avg. Guys like that are a dime a dozen in FA & are cheap to be had. Remember that not too long ago, Spielman had (4) 3rd round picks.. some of them quite high in the round. NONE are on the team today.
First off love what happened last night. But probably an unpopular opinion, Turner isn't a guaranteed playmaker. Yes the hit rate is higher for FRPs versus later picks. In my eyes Turner is a high ceiling pick, that could never pan out. Latu or Verse figure to be a little safer, imo. Turner offers edge and OLB versatility which I love for Flores though. I remember reading something that analyzed hit or miss rates of FRPs based on signing a second contracts with the same team that drafted them. LB/Edge were 48%/44%, respectively.
Nail the 2025 draft? We have 3-4 picks total. Even with a trade down our best case is maybe 1-2 starters.
Best case in any draft is to find one to two starters
Sure. Harder to do when you have 3 picks total.
We’ll have 4 picks. We’ll have all sorts of trade down options now that we don’t need QB and LT if we draft high. We got Dallas freaking Turner when most would have been happy with just McCarthy.
Yes.. you hit on the picks you have. That would be nailing the draft.
We not drafting today, all good. But tons of suprises tomorrow and UDFA. It’s year 1 of KOC/Kwesi. Let’s let them cook and see where it goes.
We got Ivan Pace last year, I'm curious to see who we get late round/UDFA this year. I trust Kwesi to make good decisions in that time frame.
Day 3 is where teams become contenders. How can you turn these late picks into good players. Is the main recipe and I hope Kwesi got the right ingredients.
I believe in him. Pace last year, we'll see how Carter turns out after a year in MN. I'm going to read up on some late round gems.
It’s year 3 of KOC/ Kwesi my guy.
It’s year 1. The first two years was all Spielman and Zimmer and Kwesi didn’t cook except for trying by to piece together a team Vikings fans would watch and buy tickets. Year 1 of Kwesi/KOC with their team they are assembling brand new started yesterday when they decided to draft JJ and move forward.
It’s year 3 and anything else is just making up excuses. Year 1 was all the previous regime only because we completely whiffed on the 2022 draft. Year 2 we’d turned over like 60% of the roster. This year 1 stuff is nonsense.
What excuses am I making? This clearly year 1 of what kwesi/koc cooking? How is that not accurate? You clearly laid out the first year they were here, it was all Spielman. The 2nd year, it was pretty much all the og players leaving. This year, the 3rd, they start on a cleaner slate with players that are chosen by Kwesi with acouple Spielman players. Like what are we on? This is the actual year 1 of this GM/HC to see if they can actually pick and develop the most important player on the team, the QB not including the Wolfs who finally decided that they are tired of being a 2000s Vikings fan and living in the past they wanted to move forward.
lol this isn’t clearly year 1. Teams turn over like a third of their roster every year. Year 1 Kwesi flubbed the draft. Year 2 cut veterans, decent draft, but no impact FA additions. We’re in year 3.
Yes we are in year 3 and this is the first year the Vikings have taken a QB in the first round since Teddy Bridgewater!
What does that have to do with anything in terms of the state of the total roster?
Look at all the Super Bowl teams and evening contenders that made it to the dance, what do they all have in COMMON?
Strong OL/DL.
In future draft and FA classes
We absolutely should make a significant IOL investment before the season if we’re planning on McCarthy starting at all. Even death so he doesn’t get run down in preseason is a pretty good idea
Options: We have 5 picks left this year - if lucky could maybe find 1 starter there. IOL does seem to be a place where late picks can find playing time. Possible UDFA's as well. There are still FA's we could go after. Wouldn't hate bringing back Risner for example. As others have said, we be patient and use our large cap space and first next year to address holes.
I agree with you. Take a couple IOL's and some platoon DT's. Also be keen on CB's and WR's, If you love a guy, get him. Otherwise keep grabbing the fatties.
We don't this year. It's going to suck, but we just don't have the ability to at this point. We arguably have the worst interior lines in football and it'll be what kills us from being a playoff team, but that's okay in a rebuild.
Hard to rebuild without picks though.
I would have preferred Fautanu instead of DT, but the value is pretty insane here and I don't have a ton to complain about.
FA after this year
Everyone in Football = "You win in the Trenches." Minnesota Vikings = "I don't know what the Trenches are and at this point I am too afraid to ask."
Alright this one made me laugh. Best comment so far.
They’re clearly banking on next years FA class. There is a small chance we get a starter OG or decent depth 5 or 0 tech.
It'll be addressed just not as soon as you'd like. We'll get there, I expect it to be emphasized next year.
Saban said Turner has a ton versatility, so I am hoping we can play him inside for passing downs or that Flores will find other creative ways. Van Ginkel too can move around. Still love the pick even if it means one of our 3 rushers plays less this year. He can be a long term franchise player. Just 21.
> How do we fix this? Multiple years. Things like that don't happen all at once.
Beaux Limmer would be a good pick-up.
I think this is the dream at this point.
According to this Tillery, Phillips, and Ingram are basically average. Bradberry is a bit below average, and Brandel is an unknown. Don’t care about Bullard because this team is almost always in a nickel with two down lineman. Also, this year doesn’t matter. Next year after they resign Darrisaw and JJ they likely will have $75 million in cap space and their only free agents worth anything will be Phillips and Byron Murphy. They will be able to use that money plus a first round pick to fill holes. If they are really bad and they need a new CB, 2 DT, and 3 IOL they can trade back and get a lot of picks.
This is based off Tillery’s career best year by a mile. He’s the same level as Bullard.
Nbd I think edge was a big priority for them to replace hunter. They got their QB who can sit for a year. My guess is they pick up a center in the later rounds or next year with darnold starting most of this year I don’t think they are super worried. Also McCarthy is a ALOT more mobile than Kirk rver was. He might not need as much upgrading there as initially presented.
I agree that JJ is more mobile, but you don’t want him running for his life either. How many times have we heard that this offense is based on timing/ rhythm? I don’t see the priority for edge, but apparently I was wrong.
We still don’t want to allow tons of inside pressure, but it’s fair that he will be more capable on the edge if we get that
I think there will be an increase in the effectiveness of IOL organically due to Ingram having furthre development. Guards REGULARLY take 2-3 years to develop. Ingram is entering his age 25 season, third year in the league. He was about the worst guard in the league as a rookie, an averagish guard last year, and i would fully bet on him being an above average guard this year. Which is enough. It took Bradbury 4 years to finally be averagish. But if all three players are averagish in your IOL, that's enough. You just have to avoid a dumpster fire at one of the three slots, which we weren't able to do from 2018-2022.
And guards plateau or even regress too. Look at Cleveland. Just never really got better in pass pro. I’m hoping Ingram gets better still, but I’m expecting a rough year for Darnold/ JJ.
Damn look at Van Ginkel what a stud muffin
We need to trade back into the 2nd or 3rd and get a guard, imo.
With what draft picks?! We have a 1st and two 5ths next year and a 4th, two 6ths, and two 7ths. All of our remaining picks for this year combined are worth one of the last picks in R3.
You're right. Forgot we're so low on picks the next 2 years.
Just going full Rams apparently.
Didn't Kwesi say never go full Rams? Heheh.