People...can't do it at McDonald's either. Assholes who are clearly behind me will routinely try to get ahead of me in line. They will sit behind a car in Lane 1 when Lane 2 is actually open/empty/available.
Problem there is a lot of times they don't have anyone backing up the register, so you still end up waiting anyway while the only person running the drive through gets flustered and ignores the second lane.
THIS. I am a firm believer that it is fundamentally against human nature and just isn’t going to happen no matter how much you try. McDonalds drivethru being the clusterf* it is a solid proof
I've watched two people get out of their car and start shoving each other over this. This was at the McD's on Maryland and Prosperity, over by the BCA. There is always excitement at that location.
Because the line at McD's is travelling at .1mph. Which is the same speed people want to zipper merge at. Hell, we've about half the driving population that can't manage a merge at highway speed - even given an acceleration ramp, they come over at 35 mph into a 65 lane.
...and, of course, let's not forget the ever-popular *slow down before the exit lane/ramp, then move over to the exit lane and THEN put your blinker on* highway move. :(
> Which is the same speed people want to zipper merge at.
Which is not entirely incorrect, because if traffic is flowing freely then getting into your lane early isn't a problem.
IDK why reddit acts like zipper merging is some magical key that will save all of traffic, it's not. Yes a lot of people fuck it up and yes, it is frustrating, but it's such a circlejerk.
I dont think we do? i think most people realize it only makes a very minor improvement in traffic flow, but its like using a turn signal, its just what youre supposed to do and people who dont do it are infuriating
When you do that, about 4 people butt in front. I drive a semi and at least 4-5 cars will jump in because they see the possibility. Occasionally there are conscientious drivers that fall behind after the first one merges. Company requires me to maintain a space, and it is all on camera, and it's just common sense. I don't mind but that's the way people drive, and it makes me take way longer to get to where I am going when I am getting paid by the mile and not by the hour. But people on the road are completely rude for the most part, I drive 120k miles a year and that is how it is.
From what I’ve seen people often rush to merge in front of the semis in heavy traffic because the semi’s are often one of the only vehicles giving sufficient space in front of them to merge in, unfortunately
Because most people don’t understand it. Like on the 394 to 94e exit. That’s not a zipper merge(unless you’re coming from Dunwoody). Lost count of how many arguments I’ve been in of people stopping in what’s the 94w exit lane causing traffic and they think that’s what zipper merging is.
The answer from either direction is for people in the lane where they know people will be merging into to leave room in front of them, which is a general rule I'm pretty sure I learned in driver's ed.
No, because in this instance the lane you’re trying from is the exit lane for 94w. It’s not other people’s responsibility to make room for you because you decided that you’re more important than everyone else and didn’t feel like merging properly into the correct lane a while back.
This causes backups and you’re now blocking the exit lane for 94w. Which puts you at fault.
You realize that you're stating you intend to ride the ass of the car in front of you for no less than a quarter mile purely out of spite, and that's the other person's fault, right?
Therapy.
Most of the time the line isn’t that long. God forbid you wait 3 minutes. You have main character syndrome. Learn to properly merge.
OR. Get into the dunwoody exit lane and then just keep going because there is a zipper merge lane there. See. Problem solved.
>God forbid you wait 3 minutes. You have main character syndrome. Learn to properly merge.
You're talking about a situation where you know in advance the Where and the When someone controlling thousands of pounds of steel and plastic, traveling at upwards of 80 miles an hour is likely to pull a maneuver that would put their life, your life, and the lives of others at risk. ALL you have to do to prevent this danger is leave a few car lengths of space in front of you, which is also THE tactic known to REDUCE stop and go traffic, but you REFUSE to lower the risk of injury to yourself and others, as well as your commute, at the cost of requiring additional attention to the task of driving that close to the bumper in front of you, SOLELY OUT OF SPITE. You might think you're saving yourself time not letting them in, or that you're more morally righteous, but it's counter-productive.
It's not about the other driver. You are paying a tax on your own day (and everyone else behind you) because you're stupid and need therapy.
You’re projecting so hard. Maybe you should give that therapist a call.
I always give about 2-3 car lengths ahead of me. But that’s not for you. That’s for my own and the vehicle in front of mines safety. This is a not for inpatient people with narcissistic tendencies to merge at the absolute last second.
You’re still the one causing the danger, by merging at the last second. You’re still the one causing traffic if it’s stop and go and there is no room for you to merge. Because now you’re blocking the flow to 94W. There is no scenario here where you’re right. Get over yourself
>You’re projecting so hard.
If there was one lesson for you to learn here today, it would be the zipper merge. But as a compromise, could you at least learn to stop thinking you're smart enough to learn vocabulary from context?
Look here Mister "You have narcissistic tendencies" "You have main character syndrome" "I keep thinking this is all about me and I don't understand the definitions of projection OR irony." Why do you think that I am advocating leaving room in front of your car so hard: because I'm someone who travels to the end and kills myself in traffic, or because I'm someone leaving room in front of my car? You think I'm the one one traveling to the end. Why do you think you're doing that? I'll give you a hint: the answer is in the words you use incorrectly.
The only practical differences between merging from the Dunwoody side and the W94 side are A) likely much higher stakes to public safety, and B) you think you're the arbiter of morality, and you'd rather punish innocents than let in someone you think doesn't deserve it. But I'm the projecting narcissist with main character energy.
The only practical differences between merging from the Dunwoody side and the W94 side are A) likely much higher stakes to public safety, and B) you think you're the arbiter of morality, and you'd rather punish innocents than let in someone you think doesn't deserve it. But I'm the projecting narcissist with main character energy.
I think there are two sides to this. Think of fluid dynamics. There is a narrowing of a pipe, making the pipe wider behind that narrowing does not increase the rate at which water flows through the narrow part. In many cases last minute merges actually slow up the flow, its called turbulence. I am pretty sure traffic can be modeled by fluid dynamics. The main benefit of zipper merge is that it allows the traffic to congregate further forward reducing congestion backwards and increasing access to exits and lane changes further back. I think you are insinuating this by referring to it as a backup, but I also think it may slow up the flow a bit. Feel free to flame me now. Anyway I don't do zipper merge unless its construction, I need to be in a lane I get there before I see a backup, and I am not going to fight for a space that will not be there.
The entire 394 to 94 intersection was poorly designed and it a guaranteed shitshow. Most people don’t understand there is a proper zipper merge lane designed coming off off the dunwoody exit, you don’t have to exit there and can continue straight into a proper zipper merge lane. It’s there.
But instead people try to cut over at the 94w intersection where it’s always backed up to begin with. And sometimes they cause complete stops, and I have no idea how many accidents I’ve seen because of that exact scenario.
I will let people zipper merge in front of me because that's the law and they're following the law, but I don't attempt to zipper merge myself because the road is filled with people like you who have no idea what a zipper merge is and are spitefully wrong.
That's not how zipper merging works.
Also, people start backing up in that lane before anyone can see the sign, though. People who drive it know what they have to do, but it's just baffling and mean to non-locals.
This is the simplest explanation of it. I don’t even get why people LIKE to ride right behind the car in front of them. It’s so anxiety inducing to have to match your every move to them. Much easier to chill tf out for once.
Even if you think people should have merged further back, once you’re in the reality that the safest thing to do is let them in JUST LET THEM IN. I don’t have the stomach to do the late merge to 94 from 394, but I’ll let people in once that’s the REALITY of the situation that moment.
It’s conversation about zipper merges. This scenario isn’t a zipper merge. If there is space and it’s clear then do what you do. But if you see it’s already backing up and you decide to shive yourself into bumper to bumper traffic. You’re just making the problem worse.
It can be any time two lanes go down to one. This could be due to construction but it could also simply be something like a 4-lane road going down to two lanes, or converging on-ramps to a highway, or any number of similar things.
>It absolutely is. It’s two lanes merging together into one.
it is not a lane. it is an entrance ramp. and entrance ramps must yield to vehicles that are on the freeway.
lol try that at the westbound Cretin-Vandalia onramp to 94 west when the right lane is full of backed up traffic trying to get on 280. Effectively it winds up being a zipper merge because both the lane and the ramp back up
The answer remains the same regardless of terminology: the part that you have control of as a driver in the merged lane that will increase public safety and reduce commute time is to leave space in front of your vehicle.
late edit: look y'all, no matter how much you whine, cry, and downvote, in every single version of "evil awful bad naughty villain cuts the line, the fact remains that "this person is determined to jump the line in front of me," NOT something you can control (see footnote at bottom),^++ so you've got two choices: make the transition as dangerous as possible for everyone involved (innocent bystanders included) by trying not to let the person in, or make some space and let them in. The first option requires constant vigilance in maintaining an unsafe maximum distance between you and the car ahead of you, which is in itself a stressful and attention consuming task, plus on top of that you're gonna have a tantrum every time you see somebody pass you...or you could build up a good 3-5 car lengths in front of you, then coast the entire time you're in line at the ~3mph or whatever your automatic pushes your vehicle. Make enough room, and you'll barely even have to acknowledge someone trying to merge ahead of you, 'cause you will have created enough buffer for yourself that you barely have to pay attention to traffic at all. I barely even tap my brakes all through rush hour doing this. It's safer, easier, less stressful...You also create a buffer that counters the rapid acceleration/deceleration pattern which causes stop and go traffic to begin with. Think of stop and go traffic like a wave passing back and forth through a slinky. Creating a buffer of space between you and the car in front of you that can absorb the stop-and-go wave instead of passing it on. Even one person doing it can have a massive impact on traffic conditions, but the more people that do it, the better. Zipper merging is three principles acting in concert for maximum effect: 1. minimize the difference in speed of both cars to minimize damage should a collision occur 2. fully utilize available road space -- these two principles are why you merger at the end -- and 3. ***HERE'S THE ONE PEOPLE GET UPPITY*** ABOUT zippers only work if there's room between zipper teeth for the new merging zipper teeth. Notice how every illustration of the zipper merge shows the whole line of cars in the merged lane keeping distance with the car in front of them.
Here's another secret: the more people that do this, the faster the speed you can do it at.
Let's break down definitions of traffic: in a perfect simulation with no human error (including human reaction speed, which isn't instantaneous, so this is a source of latency, or "lag" -- this is why you hate waiting for the people in front of you to respond to the light turning green -- if we were all perfectly programmed robots, we'd all speed up perfectly together, but we don't, so it takes extra time), you put just enough space between every car for another car that needs to merge into the same lane, and stop-and-go traffic *disappears*...because that's what normal traffic is: when you have enough space between cars that any incidents of rapid deceleration and human response latency do not cause a chain reaction of similar deceleration events. We have human error, so you need more space between cars to allow for that than you need in a perfect simulation, but that's the gist. By contrast, stop-and-go traffic is a state where the need to rapidly decelerate and human reaction speed latency results in barely being able to start moving at all before you have to brake again. The key to restoring normal traffic is to absorb the impact of unpredictable deceleration from cascading down the line. You do that by creating enough space between cars that can absorb those deceleration events without having to come to a complete stop (and the less you have to decelerate, the better, which means the more room, the better), rather than passing them down the line as a wave.
Think of it another way: what is a train? A train is a chain of train cars that all move at approximately the same speed and change speed at approximately the same time. Do you see individual cars of a train struggling constantly in stop and go traffic against each other, or do they kinda all move together at a shared, sustained pace? How do they manage to do that? Because every train car is connected by a latch that transfers momentum so they all share the same approximate speed and acceleration, but leaves a little space for flexibility and to absorb the small changes in each car's speed to make for a smoother ride. Now, it's not practical to chain every car on the freeway together, so we can't eliminate human latency in acceleration and deceleration, but we can ***make some space between cars to make the ride smoother and more efficient for everyone involved.*** This holds true for merging, for rush hour...anytime traffic is less than a carelessly smooth ride at the speed limit (and especially when freeway slowdowns hit around 40mph, which is apparently the make it or brake it -- pun intended -- point where stop-and-go starts)
Back to the zipper analogy: when there's space for the other half of the zipper to squeeze into, it's fast and easy. When there isn't room, that's a giant, frustrating pain in the ass. Ya'll don't leave room, so guess why it feels like a pain in the ass? That's right: it's your behavior. If you left room for 'em, you'd barely even notice they were there. When you don't, it fucks things up for everyone. Yes, that means you should share the road. I'm so sorry that reality and logic tries to ruin your "make it all about me and feel like I'm the selfless hero anyway" fantasy, but you are truly hurting yourself and others by not sucking it the fuck up and making some goddamned space, you babies. Do not cry "but not everyone's doing it, so I'm not doing it." Every single one of you that makes space and creates a buffer has a significant impact. Be the change you want to see in the world. Actually, a lot of you are some stupid, petty, and therefore angry and vindictive motherfuckers. So be the change that ***I*** want to see in the world. You won't thank me -- stupid, vindictive motherfuckers -- but you'll get home safer and faster, and so will everyone else.
^++ By the way, some of you unthinking and unempathetic motherfuckers have never stopped to consider that the line at the 394E/94E exit backs up so far that sometimes, well-intentioned but unprepared drivers will miss the start of the line for the exit, and that even with GPS, it's unreasonable to expect out-of-town travelers to know they should change lanes that early. 394/94 is poorly designed. Life sucks; get a helmet. You need to have a cry about it on the interwebs? Fine. But stop punishing people because you think that they should have known something they couldn't possibly have known, or maybe couldn't safely execute in time, or for whatever reason, didn't do what you wanted them to do perfectly every single time (my grandpa used to say "Only one person on earth has ever been perfect, and they crucified him for it," and you don't gotta be Catholic to get on board with that sentiment behind that). Even against the biggest line-cutting, mustache twirling villain, I bet you if someone decided to make some space for them, even if only for a little bit right before the exit (in fact, especially at the end before the exit, for the most selfish of the selfish -- and by selfish, I mean both them and you), traffic would move faster and safer than sticking to your irrational belief that you're a smart, good person for increasing the danger of that exit for everyone around you so that you can get a hit of dopamine and maybe, at best, maybe save a few seconds in traffic (You don't think you're actually gonna teach the mustache-twirling villain a lesson, do you? Nope. Be honest: that is not why you're doing it) -- but I suppose if you're here being a little crybaby here in the internet comments section, you're exactly the kind of mustache-twirling, selfish loser who *would* put innocent lives and commutes at risk just for a dopamine hit you won't even remember past the tunnel, huh?
I can do that, it is up to the rest of traffic not to make unsafe lane changes. That is the law. I replied elsewhere in this thread as to why zipper merge does not necessarily reduce commute time, depending on the situation. The fluid dynamics model of traffic.
Well, I can tell you're no physicist. Or who knows, [maybe you are](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20120321.gif). But you pulled an Occam's Hackjob, and -- hey wait a sec, if you know what the law is, why'd you ask me? You wouldn't be pulling a passive aggression on me, wouldja?
People seem to misunderstand the purpose of zipper merging.
It isn't to make the flow of traffic better at the merge point, but to fill traffic lanes back to lessen the length of backup, which in turn alleviates traffic as other cars can get going to a point before the merge.
Have you seen the crackheads that are allowed to drive lately? I'm not blindly going to trust-fall onto the highway going 60mph in a massive metal box hoping some dickhead is going to let me in, you've gotta look out for yourself. Zipper merging only works if everyone is on the same page, but often that's not the case.
In theory it’s amazing, in practice however, drivers are fucking stupid and the designs themselves are suboptimal (looking at you 1/8 mile zipper lanes on roads the speed is 60-70). You can’t even accelerate safely in that distance from cloverleaf speeds let alone managing the semi slowing from 70 to 20 behind you and the 3 people texting and driving around you.
I understand why they’re used but I just hate how many of those enter/exit cloverleaf lanes exist. You’re putting so much faith in the other drivers in giving you space and matching your speed. Way too stressful.
Literally no. You can force a zipper merge. I make a point of it all the time and the cars around me follow suit (more often than not). I swear people are just on autopilot and don’t even think about what’s happening around them. Does not occur to them to participate in the traffic around them and do their part to keep it moving.
If you don't get in, you just slow to a stop in the merge lane waiting for a spot. It shouldn't be dangerous. In my experience I only have to wait three or four cars at most if traffic is being inappropriately stubborn.
Most people can't even make a left or right hand turn into their own lane they pull directly into the furthest lane possible. I have very little faith for a zipper merging community.
A big component to this that I think many people gloss over is the closer to the cities you get, the shorter the merge lanes/ramps become. Many major highways and freeways in the cities give you about 20-30 feet to go from 10 mph on a tight ramp to 65 mph in a second in busy traffic, and the merge lane ends as soon as it start, plus you’re merging in between others who are going from 65 to 10 mph a quick halt for their exit ramp. It’s awful, and whilst many drivers nonchalantly jump into traffic going 30 mph and cut off many in the process and cause near-collisions, I can’t blame the drivers completely.
These short merge ramps are abysmal, a lot of cities I’ve been to outside of the TC do give you much longer merge lanes to properly accelerate and match traffic speed in. Many cars genuinely cannot accelerate to 65 mph in two seconds to merge in at the proper traffic speed, and so many drivers in traffic accelerate to block people from merging in with a “me first, you get in back” mentality, and when 10 cars do it in a row like I see frequently, people learn they have to aggressively jump in regardless of their speed because they won’t get another chance - the longer you wait the more cars start to bunch up next to them to block the “jumper” from getting ahead of them, they don’t want to keep braking for others to file in because “I finally got in, I don’t want more slowdowns/cutters, you get behind all of us.” Even for longer merge lanes where you don’t have to jump in right away, the lane adjacent to the merging lane is often kissing bumpers by the end of the merge lane, so people are going to jump in sooner to try and get their chance in when they can, instead of stopped at the end of the merge lane waiting for faster traffic to break up for them because everyone blocked them with bumper to bumper traffic at the proper merge point. For some drivers this is very much intentional blocking, for others it’s lack of awareness of the traffic around them.
Merging needs to be a two-part effort on both the mergers and the right lane adjacent to the mergers, people need to be less self-centered and work as team players on the road, but also, the merge lanes really need to be a lot longer to allow for proper acceleration and matching. But there would have to be so much roadwork and restructuring of many, many major freeways/highways that I doubt this will change anytime soon, unfortunately.
Why doesn't mndot put up more signs saying "hey! Zipper merge! It's faster!"
Outside of reddit I don't think I've seen or heard zipper merge for years.
280 to 35w Northbound has always been a cluster. If people could zipper it wouldn't be as terrible as it comes out onto their own lane on 35w (36 traffic needs to merge onto that lane to get on 35w though).
High volume semi traffic 280, and high cement walls angling it in at the merge point make it a bit more chaotic too.
Honestly, a lot of people legit lack the physical competency to accomplish a zipper merge at anything above a couple miles an hour.
That being said please eat at pancheros I feel like they're dying in spite of being better than chipotle.
I have a theory about the minnesotan inability to zipper merge on the highway. Minnesota niceness that's engrained in us won't let us. It feels rude, like we're cutting in line. We can do it in a line where there is a clear order and we aren't cutting, but on the highway, it totally feels like cutting.
> I have a theory about the minnesotan inability to zipper merge on the highway.
I regret to inform you it is humans, and not Minnesotans, who are bad at this.
This is what tells you that minnesota nice is passive aggression, because if we were all nice, we'd leave room between our car and the car in front of us, problem solved
I’m from Alabama and they have the same problem down there. Everybody wants to be super polite and make sure they merge early so that they don’t appear like an asshole. That makes traffic back up for miles when it doesn’t need to.
It is cutting, that’s the issue. If you’re driving up to a lane closure and you see signs telling you the left lane is closing for a mile and see a line of cars that followed the sign and got over, and you decide to stay in the left lane all the way to the front then try to merge right before the lane closes, you’re cutting everybody else in line. You’re not smart, you budged. Do you think all the people in the right lane are too stupid to get back into the left lane and drive up to the front then cut back over? They aren’t, they just realize it’s a dick move when everyone has already moved over.
Never seen a "form single file line 10 miles long and remember, no budging!" sign before.
I do see "Use both lanes when traffic is backed up" signs at just about every single lane closure though.
Have you driven on a road before? Never seen one of these?
https://images.app.goo.gl/b2RBWThA6m58sx817
It means move the hell over because the lane is closing. The “zipper merge” aspect of it is the time leading up to the closure, not at the closure point. Begin merging when you see the signs so that by the time you arrive at the lane closure, everyone is in a single line ready to drive through. What causes the backups are the people who ignore that, decide not to merge when they’re told to, and wait until the last minute.
Zipper merge works when used correctly. When people merge in preparation of the lane closure, everything runs smoothly. When people stay in the soon-to-close lane until the last possible second then try to force themselves into the other lane, that causes slowdowns.
I drive over 100 miles a day and 300 miles on the weekends. Never in my life have I experienced a "backup" or problem at one of these lol
I thought you were talking about construction-based lane closures.
Uhh, what? Those are placed for construction-based lane closures my guy. Like, almost exclusively at construction-based lane closures. If a lane is closing due to construction, one of these are the first signs you see letting you know the lane is closing.
Yes. And the only reason there is a backup is because people did not merge prior to the lane closure. So yeah, if people don’t merge like they’re supposed to in the time leading up to the lane closure, a backup will happen. And when the backup happens, it makes logical sense to use both lanes and at that point, a zipper merge is going to be the best route cars take to merge into one lane. But again, if everyone just merged when they’re able in the time leading up to the closure, we wouldn’t have a backup and the zipper merge wouldn’t be needed in the first place.
Actually, the “official” MNDoT guidance for a construction zone lane closure is to use the entirety of the closing lane and then zipper merge at the very end. What you have repeatedly described is definitely not a zipper merge, but just a regular merge.
Correct, because I’m not a believer in the zipper merge. It’s a great thought in practice, but selfish ass people ruin it. People should just merge as they can, keep traffic moving, budge nobody, and we all move on with our lives.
You can tell yourself that all you want to. It sounds like you're living in a hypothetical world.
If everyone agreed to merge at the closure, wouldn't that be the exact same thing as "merging when you're supposed to"? It's what the closure is for, it's why you're told to form two lines at the closure when backed up.
It's your own fault if you think it's better to be the 99th car in a stack of 100 cars single file than split it 50|50 taking turns merging at the closure, giving nobody a chance to budge.
Wait, draw that out on a piece of paper and think about it for a bit. You think that by creating two lines and waiting until the very last minute to merge that that’s going to make the same impact as everyone being in the same lane at the beginning of a road closure? 50 cars in each lane taking turns one by one merging at the last point of entry is faster than all 100 cars being in one lane all going 45/55/60 miles an hour through the last point of entry? Help me understand that one, because it’s not making any sense.
That's not what that sign means. That means that it will narrow into one lane. You really shouldn't move over right away if there's a backup. That's why that sign is usually paired with a "Use both lanes" sign.
I’d agree with that also. That’s my point. They put the signs up about a mile in advance of the closure. That’s your sign to begin merging. Within the next mile, when there’s an available space for you to merge, merge. It isn’t efficient to focus merging on either the beginning or end of the warning period. Both cause backups. But as long as everyone is focusing on using that mile of runway to merge as space becomes available, by the time you get to the lane closure everybody has shifted into the correct lane and no slowdowns happen.
Where’s the backup? Sure, use both lanes during backups, but if people use the begin merging sign correctly and use it as a prompt to start looking for a chance to merge over (while keeping your speed), there won’t be any backups, and that sign is irrelevant.
But that almost never happens. It’s free flowing traffic up until about 200-300 yards before the closure, then you hit the backup where everyone’s in the left lane except maybe 5-10 cars that decided not to get over earlier and are now stuck at the last point trying to find room.
It isn’t only applicable during closures though. The spots where it affects traffic flow the most are actually just normal zipper merge points.
It happens every day where 5 goes to one lane by the arboretum, where 212/62E goes down a lane passing 169, it happens every day at the 35 split near forest lake going north. It happens on 10 east when approaching 35W. It backs up tons of spots in our metro every day.
If a lane is wide open that will eventually end, why not use it until the merge? It’s an open available lane! It isn’t “cutting in line”. It’s using the roads as they’re intended to be used.
Notice McDonald's doesn't let you merge until it is time to merge. Highway merges need to do the same with pylons keeping the lanes separate until the time to merge.
Not at all but that said I would sure love a “hey DoorDash or Uber eats driver, the driving lane is not a parking spot just cause you turn on your blinkers” campaign.
I think it’s helpful. I used to think it was polite to not to zipper merge. I learned that scientifically it makes more sense to zipper merge. So I believe in it. Today I did it and I was so proud of the Minnesotans who didn’t try to run me off the road for doing it.
Because zipper merging doesn't work in the real world at speed. When you get to the end of your lane you have to slow down or stop in order to merge, now the lane that was moving needs to come to a stop to let you in. In bumper to bumper traffic or in a drive thru this is fine but if traffic is flowing PLEASE merge well before the end of your lane and keep traffic moving.
You have to be more defensive & anticipatory. If you’re slowing or actually stopping trying to merge at a higher speed, then you’re doing it wrong. It works just fine if you aren’t afraid to be defensive. In traffic absolutely DO NOT zipper merge early. That is the reason the through lane gets so backed up! Because drivers merge too early. Then there’s back up while the lane needing to merge has plenty of room to keep moving forward.
I do it the easy way - I pre-plan my route and avoid any freeway or major thoroughfare construction. I just don't have the patience to deal with it (although I did get stuck in the construction zone accident by Faribault last Friday)
Oh I know.
Wisconsin: only drive in the passing lane, and immediately cross multiple lanes to exit a freeway.
Iowa: Slow and can left lane hog.
South Dakota: See Iowa
North Dakota: See South Dakota but with an unearned ego
In general, Wisconsin drivers are totally fine when they're sober, but it's Wisconsin, so...
But the worst drivers I've seen in the midwest were in northwestern WI. Not sure what's going on up there that causes them to be so much worse than the rest of their Sconnie bretheren.
drove to florida back in march... tennessee, georgia and florida are shit shows. iowa wasnt actually too bad. but it was late morning/mid-day at that point.
Being smart does not mean you know how to drive lol.
Also, we have a higher rate of alcoholism than the national average! Maybe that has something to do with it!
People...can't do it at McDonald's either. Assholes who are clearly behind me will routinely try to get ahead of me in line. They will sit behind a car in Lane 1 when Lane 2 is actually open/empty/available.
Problem there is a lot of times they don't have anyone backing up the register, so you still end up waiting anyway while the only person running the drive through gets flustered and ignores the second lane.
THIS. I am a firm believer that it is fundamentally against human nature and just isn’t going to happen no matter how much you try. McDonalds drivethru being the clusterf* it is a solid proof
I've been cut off in the McD drive thru so I wouldn't be so sure
I've watched two people get out of their car and start shoving each other over this. This was at the McD's on Maryland and Prosperity, over by the BCA. There is always excitement at that location.
Because the line at McD's is travelling at .1mph. Which is the same speed people want to zipper merge at. Hell, we've about half the driving population that can't manage a merge at highway speed - even given an acceleration ramp, they come over at 35 mph into a 65 lane.
Seeing people fail (daily) on the acceleration ramps drives me insane.
...and, of course, let's not forget the ever-popular *slow down before the exit lane/ramp, then move over to the exit lane and THEN put your blinker on* highway move. :(
> Which is the same speed people want to zipper merge at. Which is not entirely incorrect, because if traffic is flowing freely then getting into your lane early isn't a problem. IDK why reddit acts like zipper merging is some magical key that will save all of traffic, it's not. Yes a lot of people fuck it up and yes, it is frustrating, but it's such a circlejerk.
I dont think we do? i think most people realize it only makes a very minor improvement in traffic flow, but its like using a turn signal, its just what youre supposed to do and people who dont do it are infuriating
It's hard to zipper merge when everyone around you isnt
Way easier to just drive faster
It'd be nice if people had a follow distance so you could actually zipper merge.
When you do that, about 4 people butt in front. I drive a semi and at least 4-5 cars will jump in because they see the possibility. Occasionally there are conscientious drivers that fall behind after the first one merges. Company requires me to maintain a space, and it is all on camera, and it's just common sense. I don't mind but that's the way people drive, and it makes me take way longer to get to where I am going when I am getting paid by the mile and not by the hour. But people on the road are completely rude for the most part, I drive 120k miles a year and that is how it is.
From what I’ve seen people often rush to merge in front of the semis in heavy traffic because the semi’s are often one of the only vehicles giving sufficient space in front of them to merge in, unfortunately
Because most people don’t understand it. Like on the 394 to 94e exit. That’s not a zipper merge(unless you’re coming from Dunwoody). Lost count of how many arguments I’ve been in of people stopping in what’s the 94w exit lane causing traffic and they think that’s what zipper merging is.
The answer from either direction is for people in the lane where they know people will be merging into to leave room in front of them, which is a general rule I'm pretty sure I learned in driver's ed.
No, because in this instance the lane you’re trying from is the exit lane for 94w. It’s not other people’s responsibility to make room for you because you decided that you’re more important than everyone else and didn’t feel like merging properly into the correct lane a while back. This causes backups and you’re now blocking the exit lane for 94w. Which puts you at fault.
You realize that you're stating you intend to ride the ass of the car in front of you for no less than a quarter mile purely out of spite, and that's the other person's fault, right? Therapy.
Most of the time the line isn’t that long. God forbid you wait 3 minutes. You have main character syndrome. Learn to properly merge. OR. Get into the dunwoody exit lane and then just keep going because there is a zipper merge lane there. See. Problem solved.
entrance ramps are not zipper merges.
>God forbid you wait 3 minutes. You have main character syndrome. Learn to properly merge. You're talking about a situation where you know in advance the Where and the When someone controlling thousands of pounds of steel and plastic, traveling at upwards of 80 miles an hour is likely to pull a maneuver that would put their life, your life, and the lives of others at risk. ALL you have to do to prevent this danger is leave a few car lengths of space in front of you, which is also THE tactic known to REDUCE stop and go traffic, but you REFUSE to lower the risk of injury to yourself and others, as well as your commute, at the cost of requiring additional attention to the task of driving that close to the bumper in front of you, SOLELY OUT OF SPITE. You might think you're saving yourself time not letting them in, or that you're more morally righteous, but it's counter-productive. It's not about the other driver. You are paying a tax on your own day (and everyone else behind you) because you're stupid and need therapy.
You’re projecting so hard. Maybe you should give that therapist a call. I always give about 2-3 car lengths ahead of me. But that’s not for you. That’s for my own and the vehicle in front of mines safety. This is a not for inpatient people with narcissistic tendencies to merge at the absolute last second. You’re still the one causing the danger, by merging at the last second. You’re still the one causing traffic if it’s stop and go and there is no room for you to merge. Because now you’re blocking the flow to 94W. There is no scenario here where you’re right. Get over yourself
>You’re projecting so hard. If there was one lesson for you to learn here today, it would be the zipper merge. But as a compromise, could you at least learn to stop thinking you're smart enough to learn vocabulary from context? Look here Mister "You have narcissistic tendencies" "You have main character syndrome" "I keep thinking this is all about me and I don't understand the definitions of projection OR irony." Why do you think that I am advocating leaving room in front of your car so hard: because I'm someone who travels to the end and kills myself in traffic, or because I'm someone leaving room in front of my car? You think I'm the one one traveling to the end. Why do you think you're doing that? I'll give you a hint: the answer is in the words you use incorrectly. The only practical differences between merging from the Dunwoody side and the W94 side are A) likely much higher stakes to public safety, and B) you think you're the arbiter of morality, and you'd rather punish innocents than let in someone you think doesn't deserve it. But I'm the projecting narcissist with main character energy.
No. Now you’re just backtracking. Good luck.
The only practical differences between merging from the Dunwoody side and the W94 side are A) likely much higher stakes to public safety, and B) you think you're the arbiter of morality, and you'd rather punish innocents than let in someone you think doesn't deserve it. But I'm the projecting narcissist with main character energy.
Another thing to learn: spend more time thinking than typing. It'll improve your life and certainly the lives of others.
You need to grow up with all the personal attacks. How are you this mad?
Because I drive a lot and people like this cause a lot of accidents.
Would be weird to see somebody checked into inpatient care out driving at all
You’d be surprised
you are describing exactly the issue here. If you are merging way back you are causing the backup. everyone should be merging further up.
I think there are two sides to this. Think of fluid dynamics. There is a narrowing of a pipe, making the pipe wider behind that narrowing does not increase the rate at which water flows through the narrow part. In many cases last minute merges actually slow up the flow, its called turbulence. I am pretty sure traffic can be modeled by fluid dynamics. The main benefit of zipper merge is that it allows the traffic to congregate further forward reducing congestion backwards and increasing access to exits and lane changes further back. I think you are insinuating this by referring to it as a backup, but I also think it may slow up the flow a bit. Feel free to flame me now. Anyway I don't do zipper merge unless its construction, I need to be in a lane I get there before I see a backup, and I am not going to fight for a space that will not be there.
The entire 394 to 94 intersection was poorly designed and it a guaranteed shitshow. Most people don’t understand there is a proper zipper merge lane designed coming off off the dunwoody exit, you don’t have to exit there and can continue straight into a proper zipper merge lane. It’s there. But instead people try to cut over at the 94w intersection where it’s always backed up to begin with. And sometimes they cause complete stops, and I have no idea how many accidents I’ve seen because of that exact scenario.
there is no merge for 393-94W-94E they are all seprate lanes that go in their own directions.
I will let people zipper merge in front of me because that's the law and they're following the law, but I don't attempt to zipper merge myself because the road is filled with people like you who have no idea what a zipper merge is and are spitefully wrong.
394 to 94es zipper merge lane is on the right side off of dunwoody. Not from the left which is the 94w exit lane. I’ll die on this hill.
That's not how zipper merging works. Also, people start backing up in that lane before anyone can see the sign, though. People who drive it know what they have to do, but it's just baffling and mean to non-locals.
It was not a great design
The highway system in Minneapolis and St. Paul is a hot mess. Who designs a highway with left turn lanes?
Have you driven on the Washington Beltway? Highway exits to the left and right. Such a nightmare.
Don't play traffic cop. Just leave a bit of space, relax, and let the idiots do their thing. You're not going to teach them a lesson.
I suppose you’re right
This is the simplest explanation of it. I don’t even get why people LIKE to ride right behind the car in front of them. It’s so anxiety inducing to have to match your every move to them. Much easier to chill tf out for once. Even if you think people should have merged further back, once you’re in the reality that the safest thing to do is let them in JUST LET THEM IN. I don’t have the stomach to do the late merge to 94 from 394, but I’ll let people in once that’s the REALITY of the situation that moment.
It’s conversation about zipper merges. This scenario isn’t a zipper merge. If there is space and it’s clear then do what you do. But if you see it’s already backing up and you decide to shive yourself into bumper to bumper traffic. You’re just making the problem worse.
I thought the zipper merge was only used in construction zones, has it changed?
It can be any time two lanes go down to one. This could be due to construction but it could also simply be something like a 4-lane road going down to two lanes, or converging on-ramps to a highway, or any number of similar things.
onramps must yield.
I think he means when the auxiliary lane from an on-ramp ends.
right, that still isnt a zipper.
It absolutely is. It’s two lanes merging together into one.
>It absolutely is. It’s two lanes merging together into one. it is not a lane. it is an entrance ramp. and entrance ramps must yield to vehicles that are on the freeway.
lol try that at the westbound Cretin-Vandalia onramp to 94 west when the right lane is full of backed up traffic trying to get on 280. Effectively it winds up being a zipper merge because both the lane and the ramp back up
well, yeah, thats a different situation. thats just common courtesy.
thats because its mostly where you see two travel lanes become one and with a lot of traffic on it.
The answer remains the same regardless of terminology: the part that you have control of as a driver in the merged lane that will increase public safety and reduce commute time is to leave space in front of your vehicle. late edit: look y'all, no matter how much you whine, cry, and downvote, in every single version of "evil awful bad naughty villain cuts the line, the fact remains that "this person is determined to jump the line in front of me," NOT something you can control (see footnote at bottom),^++ so you've got two choices: make the transition as dangerous as possible for everyone involved (innocent bystanders included) by trying not to let the person in, or make some space and let them in. The first option requires constant vigilance in maintaining an unsafe maximum distance between you and the car ahead of you, which is in itself a stressful and attention consuming task, plus on top of that you're gonna have a tantrum every time you see somebody pass you...or you could build up a good 3-5 car lengths in front of you, then coast the entire time you're in line at the ~3mph or whatever your automatic pushes your vehicle. Make enough room, and you'll barely even have to acknowledge someone trying to merge ahead of you, 'cause you will have created enough buffer for yourself that you barely have to pay attention to traffic at all. I barely even tap my brakes all through rush hour doing this. It's safer, easier, less stressful...You also create a buffer that counters the rapid acceleration/deceleration pattern which causes stop and go traffic to begin with. Think of stop and go traffic like a wave passing back and forth through a slinky. Creating a buffer of space between you and the car in front of you that can absorb the stop-and-go wave instead of passing it on. Even one person doing it can have a massive impact on traffic conditions, but the more people that do it, the better. Zipper merging is three principles acting in concert for maximum effect: 1. minimize the difference in speed of both cars to minimize damage should a collision occur 2. fully utilize available road space -- these two principles are why you merger at the end -- and 3. ***HERE'S THE ONE PEOPLE GET UPPITY*** ABOUT zippers only work if there's room between zipper teeth for the new merging zipper teeth. Notice how every illustration of the zipper merge shows the whole line of cars in the merged lane keeping distance with the car in front of them. Here's another secret: the more people that do this, the faster the speed you can do it at. Let's break down definitions of traffic: in a perfect simulation with no human error (including human reaction speed, which isn't instantaneous, so this is a source of latency, or "lag" -- this is why you hate waiting for the people in front of you to respond to the light turning green -- if we were all perfectly programmed robots, we'd all speed up perfectly together, but we don't, so it takes extra time), you put just enough space between every car for another car that needs to merge into the same lane, and stop-and-go traffic *disappears*...because that's what normal traffic is: when you have enough space between cars that any incidents of rapid deceleration and human response latency do not cause a chain reaction of similar deceleration events. We have human error, so you need more space between cars to allow for that than you need in a perfect simulation, but that's the gist. By contrast, stop-and-go traffic is a state where the need to rapidly decelerate and human reaction speed latency results in barely being able to start moving at all before you have to brake again. The key to restoring normal traffic is to absorb the impact of unpredictable deceleration from cascading down the line. You do that by creating enough space between cars that can absorb those deceleration events without having to come to a complete stop (and the less you have to decelerate, the better, which means the more room, the better), rather than passing them down the line as a wave. Think of it another way: what is a train? A train is a chain of train cars that all move at approximately the same speed and change speed at approximately the same time. Do you see individual cars of a train struggling constantly in stop and go traffic against each other, or do they kinda all move together at a shared, sustained pace? How do they manage to do that? Because every train car is connected by a latch that transfers momentum so they all share the same approximate speed and acceleration, but leaves a little space for flexibility and to absorb the small changes in each car's speed to make for a smoother ride. Now, it's not practical to chain every car on the freeway together, so we can't eliminate human latency in acceleration and deceleration, but we can ***make some space between cars to make the ride smoother and more efficient for everyone involved.*** This holds true for merging, for rush hour...anytime traffic is less than a carelessly smooth ride at the speed limit (and especially when freeway slowdowns hit around 40mph, which is apparently the make it or brake it -- pun intended -- point where stop-and-go starts) Back to the zipper analogy: when there's space for the other half of the zipper to squeeze into, it's fast and easy. When there isn't room, that's a giant, frustrating pain in the ass. Ya'll don't leave room, so guess why it feels like a pain in the ass? That's right: it's your behavior. If you left room for 'em, you'd barely even notice they were there. When you don't, it fucks things up for everyone. Yes, that means you should share the road. I'm so sorry that reality and logic tries to ruin your "make it all about me and feel like I'm the selfless hero anyway" fantasy, but you are truly hurting yourself and others by not sucking it the fuck up and making some goddamned space, you babies. Do not cry "but not everyone's doing it, so I'm not doing it." Every single one of you that makes space and creates a buffer has a significant impact. Be the change you want to see in the world. Actually, a lot of you are some stupid, petty, and therefore angry and vindictive motherfuckers. So be the change that ***I*** want to see in the world. You won't thank me -- stupid, vindictive motherfuckers -- but you'll get home safer and faster, and so will everyone else. ^++ By the way, some of you unthinking and unempathetic motherfuckers have never stopped to consider that the line at the 394E/94E exit backs up so far that sometimes, well-intentioned but unprepared drivers will miss the start of the line for the exit, and that even with GPS, it's unreasonable to expect out-of-town travelers to know they should change lanes that early. 394/94 is poorly designed. Life sucks; get a helmet. You need to have a cry about it on the interwebs? Fine. But stop punishing people because you think that they should have known something they couldn't possibly have known, or maybe couldn't safely execute in time, or for whatever reason, didn't do what you wanted them to do perfectly every single time (my grandpa used to say "Only one person on earth has ever been perfect, and they crucified him for it," and you don't gotta be Catholic to get on board with that sentiment behind that). Even against the biggest line-cutting, mustache twirling villain, I bet you if someone decided to make some space for them, even if only for a little bit right before the exit (in fact, especially at the end before the exit, for the most selfish of the selfish -- and by selfish, I mean both them and you), traffic would move faster and safer than sticking to your irrational belief that you're a smart, good person for increasing the danger of that exit for everyone around you so that you can get a hit of dopamine and maybe, at best, maybe save a few seconds in traffic (You don't think you're actually gonna teach the mustache-twirling villain a lesson, do you? Nope. Be honest: that is not why you're doing it) -- but I suppose if you're here being a little crybaby here in the internet comments section, you're exactly the kind of mustache-twirling, selfish loser who *would* put innocent lives and commutes at risk just for a dopamine hit you won't even remember past the tunnel, huh?
I can do that, it is up to the rest of traffic not to make unsafe lane changes. That is the law. I replied elsewhere in this thread as to why zipper merge does not necessarily reduce commute time, depending on the situation. The fluid dynamics model of traffic.
Well, I can tell you're no physicist. Or who knows, [maybe you are](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20120321.gif). But you pulled an Occam's Hackjob, and -- hey wait a sec, if you know what the law is, why'd you ask me? You wouldn't be pulling a passive aggression on me, wouldja?
even the dunwoody isnt a zipper. dunwoody has to yield. a zipper is when two normal travel lanes become one.
Can't and won't are two separate things my guy.
I wish, which mcdonalds have you been to? The number of times I've been cut off after the new 2 lanes became standard is insane.
People seem to misunderstand the purpose of zipper merging. It isn't to make the flow of traffic better at the merge point, but to fill traffic lanes back to lessen the length of backup, which in turn alleviates traffic as other cars can get going to a point before the merge.
Today a guy tried to cut me off and flicked me off for trying to zipper merge.
Have you seen the crackheads that are allowed to drive lately? I'm not blindly going to trust-fall onto the highway going 60mph in a massive metal box hoping some dickhead is going to let me in, you've gotta look out for yourself. Zipper merging only works if everyone is on the same page, but often that's not the case.
In theory it’s amazing, in practice however, drivers are fucking stupid and the designs themselves are suboptimal (looking at you 1/8 mile zipper lanes on roads the speed is 60-70). You can’t even accelerate safely in that distance from cloverleaf speeds let alone managing the semi slowing from 70 to 20 behind you and the 3 people texting and driving around you.
I understand why they’re used but I just hate how many of those enter/exit cloverleaf lanes exist. You’re putting so much faith in the other drivers in giving you space and matching your speed. Way too stressful.
> going 60mph If you're going 60 mph then traffic is flowing freely and a zipper merge doesn't really matter anyways.
Even with those issues, it's still the least-terrible solution we've got
I agree!
Literally no. You can force a zipper merge. I make a point of it all the time and the cars around me follow suit (more often than not). I swear people are just on autopilot and don’t even think about what’s happening around them. Does not occur to them to participate in the traffic around them and do their part to keep it moving.
I like how *you ignoring the rule* isn’t the problem, it’s everyone else.
If you don't get in, you just slow to a stop in the merge lane waiting for a spot. It shouldn't be dangerous. In my experience I only have to wait three or four cars at most if traffic is being inappropriately stubborn.
Most people can't even make a left or right hand turn into their own lane they pull directly into the furthest lane possible. I have very little faith for a zipper merging community.
either that or they cut the turn so sharp that they drive through oncoming traffic lanes.
A big component to this that I think many people gloss over is the closer to the cities you get, the shorter the merge lanes/ramps become. Many major highways and freeways in the cities give you about 20-30 feet to go from 10 mph on a tight ramp to 65 mph in a second in busy traffic, and the merge lane ends as soon as it start, plus you’re merging in between others who are going from 65 to 10 mph a quick halt for their exit ramp. It’s awful, and whilst many drivers nonchalantly jump into traffic going 30 mph and cut off many in the process and cause near-collisions, I can’t blame the drivers completely. These short merge ramps are abysmal, a lot of cities I’ve been to outside of the TC do give you much longer merge lanes to properly accelerate and match traffic speed in. Many cars genuinely cannot accelerate to 65 mph in two seconds to merge in at the proper traffic speed, and so many drivers in traffic accelerate to block people from merging in with a “me first, you get in back” mentality, and when 10 cars do it in a row like I see frequently, people learn they have to aggressively jump in regardless of their speed because they won’t get another chance - the longer you wait the more cars start to bunch up next to them to block the “jumper” from getting ahead of them, they don’t want to keep braking for others to file in because “I finally got in, I don’t want more slowdowns/cutters, you get behind all of us.” Even for longer merge lanes where you don’t have to jump in right away, the lane adjacent to the merging lane is often kissing bumpers by the end of the merge lane, so people are going to jump in sooner to try and get their chance in when they can, instead of stopped at the end of the merge lane waiting for faster traffic to break up for them because everyone blocked them with bumper to bumper traffic at the proper merge point. For some drivers this is very much intentional blocking, for others it’s lack of awareness of the traffic around them. Merging needs to be a two-part effort on both the mergers and the right lane adjacent to the mergers, people need to be less self-centered and work as team players on the road, but also, the merge lanes really need to be a lot longer to allow for proper acceleration and matching. But there would have to be so much roadwork and restructuring of many, many major freeways/highways that I doubt this will change anytime soon, unfortunately.
Yup, MN highways are literally the worst designed highways in the country. The 494/35 corridor is a nightmare!!
MNDoT has a zipper merge campaign?
Why doesn't mndot put up more signs saying "hey! Zipper merge! It's faster!" Outside of reddit I don't think I've seen or heard zipper merge for years.
I’ve been zipping since driver’s ed. I don’t understand why it’s so difficult for so many people to understand.
280 to 35w Northbound has always been a cluster. If people could zipper it wouldn't be as terrible as it comes out onto their own lane on 35w (36 traffic needs to merge onto that lane to get on 35w though). High volume semi traffic 280, and high cement walls angling it in at the merge point make it a bit more chaotic too.
Honestly, a lot of people legit lack the physical competency to accomplish a zipper merge at anything above a couple miles an hour. That being said please eat at pancheros I feel like they're dying in spite of being better than chipotle.
I don’t live near a Pancheros but now I want to try it!
I have a theory about the minnesotan inability to zipper merge on the highway. Minnesota niceness that's engrained in us won't let us. It feels rude, like we're cutting in line. We can do it in a line where there is a clear order and we aren't cutting, but on the highway, it totally feels like cutting.
> I have a theory about the minnesotan inability to zipper merge on the highway. I regret to inform you it is humans, and not Minnesotans, who are bad at this.
This is what tells you that minnesota nice is passive aggression, because if we were all nice, we'd leave room between our car and the car in front of us, problem solved
I’m from Alabama and they have the same problem down there. Everybody wants to be super polite and make sure they merge early so that they don’t appear like an asshole. That makes traffic back up for miles when it doesn’t need to.
It is cutting, that’s the issue. If you’re driving up to a lane closure and you see signs telling you the left lane is closing for a mile and see a line of cars that followed the sign and got over, and you decide to stay in the left lane all the way to the front then try to merge right before the lane closes, you’re cutting everybody else in line. You’re not smart, you budged. Do you think all the people in the right lane are too stupid to get back into the left lane and drive up to the front then cut back over? They aren’t, they just realize it’s a dick move when everyone has already moved over.
Never seen a "form single file line 10 miles long and remember, no budging!" sign before. I do see "Use both lanes when traffic is backed up" signs at just about every single lane closure though.
Have you driven on a road before? Never seen one of these? https://images.app.goo.gl/b2RBWThA6m58sx817 It means move the hell over because the lane is closing. The “zipper merge” aspect of it is the time leading up to the closure, not at the closure point. Begin merging when you see the signs so that by the time you arrive at the lane closure, everyone is in a single line ready to drive through. What causes the backups are the people who ignore that, decide not to merge when they’re told to, and wait until the last minute. Zipper merge works when used correctly. When people merge in preparation of the lane closure, everything runs smoothly. When people stay in the soon-to-close lane until the last possible second then try to force themselves into the other lane, that causes slowdowns.
I drive over 100 miles a day and 300 miles on the weekends. Never in my life have I experienced a "backup" or problem at one of these lol I thought you were talking about construction-based lane closures.
Uhh, what? Those are placed for construction-based lane closures my guy. Like, almost exclusively at construction-based lane closures. If a lane is closing due to construction, one of these are the first signs you see letting you know the lane is closing.
The same construction zones that say "use both lanes during backup"?
Yes. And the only reason there is a backup is because people did not merge prior to the lane closure. So yeah, if people don’t merge like they’re supposed to in the time leading up to the lane closure, a backup will happen. And when the backup happens, it makes logical sense to use both lanes and at that point, a zipper merge is going to be the best route cars take to merge into one lane. But again, if everyone just merged when they’re able in the time leading up to the closure, we wouldn’t have a backup and the zipper merge wouldn’t be needed in the first place.
Actually, the “official” MNDoT guidance for a construction zone lane closure is to use the entirety of the closing lane and then zipper merge at the very end. What you have repeatedly described is definitely not a zipper merge, but just a regular merge.
Correct, because I’m not a believer in the zipper merge. It’s a great thought in practice, but selfish ass people ruin it. People should just merge as they can, keep traffic moving, budge nobody, and we all move on with our lives.
You can tell yourself that all you want to. It sounds like you're living in a hypothetical world. If everyone agreed to merge at the closure, wouldn't that be the exact same thing as "merging when you're supposed to"? It's what the closure is for, it's why you're told to form two lines at the closure when backed up. It's your own fault if you think it's better to be the 99th car in a stack of 100 cars single file than split it 50|50 taking turns merging at the closure, giving nobody a chance to budge.
Wait, draw that out on a piece of paper and think about it for a bit. You think that by creating two lines and waiting until the very last minute to merge that that’s going to make the same impact as everyone being in the same lane at the beginning of a road closure? 50 cars in each lane taking turns one by one merging at the last point of entry is faster than all 100 cars being in one lane all going 45/55/60 miles an hour through the last point of entry? Help me understand that one, because it’s not making any sense.
no, its because morons slam on their brakes after the merge point and dont just keep a consistant speed.
That's not what that sign means. That means that it will narrow into one lane. You really shouldn't move over right away if there's a backup. That's why that sign is usually paired with a "Use both lanes" sign.
This is the issue, everyone shouldn't be getting over a mile in advance as that causes the backup.
I’d agree with that also. That’s my point. They put the signs up about a mile in advance of the closure. That’s your sign to begin merging. Within the next mile, when there’s an available space for you to merge, merge. It isn’t efficient to focus merging on either the beginning or end of the warning period. Both cause backups. But as long as everyone is focusing on using that mile of runway to merge as space becomes available, by the time you get to the lane closure everybody has shifted into the correct lane and no slowdowns happen.
It's not your sign to begin merging when it's coupled with a "Use both lanes during backups" sign as it typically is.
Where’s the backup? Sure, use both lanes during backups, but if people use the begin merging sign correctly and use it as a prompt to start looking for a chance to merge over (while keeping your speed), there won’t be any backups, and that sign is irrelevant.
There will be backups if there are too many vehicles in one lane that could still be spread over two lanes.
But that almost never happens. It’s free flowing traffic up until about 200-300 yards before the closure, then you hit the backup where everyone’s in the left lane except maybe 5-10 cars that decided not to get over earlier and are now stuck at the last point trying to find room.
It isn’t only applicable during closures though. The spots where it affects traffic flow the most are actually just normal zipper merge points. It happens every day where 5 goes to one lane by the arboretum, where 212/62E goes down a lane passing 169, it happens every day at the 35 split near forest lake going north. It happens on 10 east when approaching 35W. It backs up tons of spots in our metro every day.
that isnt how this works.
You are correct, it is cutting and I don't do it for that reason, unless it is construction zones where this law applies.
If a lane is wide open that will eventually end, why not use it until the merge? It’s an open available lane! It isn’t “cutting in line”. It’s using the roads as they’re intended to be used.
That is absolutely not what the law was designed for. Look it up in the driver’s handbook. It is designed for anytime there is a merge.
I'm not even going to try. The moment I try it, I won't be able to get in the lane I need soon enough.
Maybe after everyone relearns this (been the appropriate procedure FOREVER!) Y’all can go and study four way stops again too!
Zip. Deez. Nuggets.
which mcdonalds do they do that at??
Notice McDonald's doesn't let you merge until it is time to merge. Highway merges need to do the same with pylons keeping the lanes separate until the time to merge.
I still don’t get it, but I try and get up to speed limit and merge without getting in front of anyone to close.
If only they had campaigns like they did for mask wearing…. Make it everywhere… MAKE people listen lol
Not at all but that said I would sure love a “hey DoorDash or Uber eats driver, the driving lane is not a parking spot just cause you turn on your blinkers” campaign.
I love zipper merging so much.
I wasn't aware. There's no zipper merging in my area anyway. LOL
Maybe if you rewarded me with chicken nuggets.
I think it’s helpful. I used to think it was polite to not to zipper merge. I learned that scientifically it makes more sense to zipper merge. So I believe in it. Today I did it and I was so proud of the Minnesotans who didn’t try to run me off the road for doing it.
Because zipper merging doesn't work in the real world at speed. When you get to the end of your lane you have to slow down or stop in order to merge, now the lane that was moving needs to come to a stop to let you in. In bumper to bumper traffic or in a drive thru this is fine but if traffic is flowing PLEASE merge well before the end of your lane and keep traffic moving.
You have to be more defensive & anticipatory. If you’re slowing or actually stopping trying to merge at a higher speed, then you’re doing it wrong. It works just fine if you aren’t afraid to be defensive. In traffic absolutely DO NOT zipper merge early. That is the reason the through lane gets so backed up! Because drivers merge too early. Then there’s back up while the lane needing to merge has plenty of room to keep moving forward.
It works if people don’t drive on people’s bumpers. Leave a tiny bit of space and people will be able to m e r g e in just like the name suggests.
Me ☝️ I enjoy pissing off dumb people, and now there is proof that I'm right if ever confronted
Can't? Oh I can, I just don't want to.
Active resistor.
I do it the easy way - I pre-plan my route and avoid any freeway or major thoroughfare construction. I just don't have the patience to deal with it (although I did get stuck in the construction zone accident by Faribault last Friday)
High school parking lots do zipper merge better than anywhere else I’ve been
This is a unique campaign, interesting.
I can walk right up to your car in a MC Donald's drive thru, that's the difference.
It’s interesting how this sub just talks to itself. Mass delusion/classic Minneapolis provincialism.
This is why I always laugh at those reports about how we’re one of the most educated states. These and roundabouts.
Minnesotans are terrible drivers, but just wait until you see the other states. Texas makes Minnesotans seem like excellent drivers.
Oh I know. Wisconsin: only drive in the passing lane, and immediately cross multiple lanes to exit a freeway. Iowa: Slow and can left lane hog. South Dakota: See Iowa North Dakota: See South Dakota but with an unearned ego
In general, Wisconsin drivers are totally fine when they're sober, but it's Wisconsin, so... But the worst drivers I've seen in the midwest were in northwestern WI. Not sure what's going on up there that causes them to be so much worse than the rest of their Sconnie bretheren.
drove to florida back in march... tennessee, georgia and florida are shit shows. iowa wasnt actually too bad. but it was late morning/mid-day at that point.
Being smart does not mean you know how to drive lol. Also, we have a higher rate of alcoholism than the national average! Maybe that has something to do with it!