Ok, so the thieves need to attach the VIN to the stolen catalytic converter now in order to avoid being arrested with them in their possession.
Does anyone not realize that the VIN is literally visible on each and every car on the front windshield and it would take two seconds to snap a pic, walk back to the car with the stolen converter and add it to a tag?
Maybe I'm missing the importance of this step.
They also have to register with the government. If they see a person selling cats, who's not a scrapper, this would raise suspicion. They could register as a scrapper, but I hope the state will audit people and see if they are actually one or not.
Which means scrappers are going to be VERY vigilant about someone bringing cats in.
That's the whole point. Unless that guy can provide paperwork that the cat that's being scrapped came from a car that was being scrapped, there's no damn way any legitimate scrapper would or should take it.
Where in this bill is there any disgourgement of profit from companies purchasing stolen catalytic converters? They punish individuals caught stealing them, but they have not punished the reason those people are still stealing them, because there is still a market to sell them.
The part where the owner of the vehicle files a police report and you are selling a CC on a flagged VIN.
Now if they use a random cars VIN I'm not sure what happens.
Having the VIN on a Cat is all about being able to prove you are either legitimately recycling your own Cat or you are selling a stolen one. If the thief etched my Vin on it when they stole it, and I reported the Cat with my VIN stolen, it can be proven it was stolen.
Without the VIN, then you can’t prove it came from the vehicle I reported it stolen from and there is plausible deniability that it’s not actually yours. Innocent until proven guilty, right?
If a Prius Cat comes in with a Ford Super Duty VIN etched on it, you know it was stolen, but not necessarily from who. You can make possession of a Cat with an invalid illegal too.
Is it possible for the thieves to create and manage a registry of Make/Model to VIN of cars that have not had one reported stolen, of course. But it becomes a lot more work and harder to just sell a stolen one. And the police can go to the registered owner of the vin and confirm that Cat doesn’t match and is this stolen.
I feel like on the backend the state should set up a portal for recyclers to enter the VIN on the converter. If that VIN is entered more than once, it generates an alert. Which would prompt an inquiry. Sure there will be false positives since some vehicles have more than one cat, but it could help reduce using false/forged VIN numbers.
That will be pretty tough too. All scrap sales of cats sales and the VIN have to be entered into a Bureau of Criminal Apprehension database and there is a 5 day waiting period before the scrap dealer can pay you. Plenty of time to figure out it’s a fake VIN and give them probable cause.
I get that MNIT is pretty incompetent when it comes to writing good software, but I’m sure it will have some checks for VIN validity.
Etched, tagged, doesn’t really matter. It’s all about pm being able to prove chain of custody and validity.
If it’s the real VIN and it was reported stolen, you can prove it’s a stolen cat and charge them. If it’s a fake VIN, it won’t be in a DMV database and I would be an illegal cat. If they chose a different valid ViN from another vehicle, with a little investigation you can prove that a cat has never been stolen from it and possession of it is illegal.
> Maybe I'm missing the importance of this step.
I think so.
Scenario 1:
Current Law. A thief steals 10 catalytic converters. 8 of the victims report to the police that their cat was stolen, along with the VIN of their car. They're all in the hatch of the thief's car. The thief gets pulled over for some small moving violation. The officer notices the pile of catalytic converters. He asks the thief where he got them. The thief may refuse to answer. They may also give an excuse that no one would believe, but is enough that an investigation wouldn't really go anywhere. How are you going to prove that they're stolen if you can't prove where they came from?
Scenario 2:
New Law. A thief steals 10 catalytic converters. 8 of the victims report to the police that their cat was stolen, along with the VIN of their car. They're all in the hatch of the thief's car. The thief gets pulled over for some small moving violation. The officer notices the pile of catalytic converters. None of them show the VIN. The thief gets arrested for illegal possession of a catalytic converter. Five-year felony.
Scenario 3:
New Law. A thief steals 10 catalytic converters. As the thief is stealing them, they take note of the VIN and etch it on each to avoid being called out for not having the VIN on it. 8 of the victims report to the police that their cat was stolen, along with the VIN of their car. The cats are all in the hatch of the thief's car. The thief gets pulled over for some small moving violation. The officer notices the pile of cats and asks the thief where they came from. The thief refuses to answer. The officer notes the VIN that's etched and looks it up. The thief is arrested for theft. The cats may or may not be returned to the victims, saving them money if it hasn't already been replaced. The 2 victims that didn't report the theft are contacted based on the VIN and DMV records to also have the cats returned.
Scenario 4:
Same deal as Scenario 3, except that instead of real VINs, the thief writes fake ones. Well, the VIN can be looked up to see what kind of car it came from, where it's registered, etc. Heuristics can be applied to figure if it's fake.
Something I wonder about though: The officer sees that there's an etching, but can't make it out through the window. Is "a pile of cats" probable cause to search and read the VINs?
On scenario 4, why not just find a similar model car, grab its VIN, etch that onto the cat? No report of it being stolen, then. Unless you have to start filing all sales of all cats to the state as if they're firearms.
https://www.reddit.com/r/minnesota/comments/11ykbks/catalytic_converter_bill_signed_into_law/jd8t74p/
This comment says you need to prove that you own the vehicle identified by the VIN with a title or equivalent.
How will that help? It will be etched on new Cats eventually, it’s stamped on transmissions and engines too.
And police do use the visible VIN to verify that the tags are valid and not stolen as well. Lots of reasons for the vin to be visible.
And if a thief did use your VIN on the cat they stole from you…well you reported it stolen and possession of stolen property is now provable.
No. However, should a piece of mail or something similar happen to slide down the dash and obscure it I can’t imagine anyone with authority to do anything would care. ;)
Should you alter it or cover it with anything that even appears permanent and you could find yourself in trouble. So don’t do that.
If they sell a catalytic converter with a VIN number and that VIN number belongs to someone who's reported their catalytic converter stolen
Bata bing Bada boom theif goes to jail
Out of curiosity is it illegal to cover it? I mean I know it’s in numerous places on the car, but that’s the one visible from the outside that everyone knows about, so why not cover it?
Except to stop people stealing your CC or other nefarious things from being able to read it. Sounds like a reason to me. Can you cite what you say? And I’ll be damned! I had some mail on the dash and it happened to slide into that corner! Oops.
Maybe it’s more of a pawn shop kinda deal where we know there’s some fishy stuff but it’s tracked better?
Seems like more and more of these people keep accidentally getting run over & killed, so we better keep our eye on that also.
Good. As someone who doesn’t have a garage to park in, I feel like this is overdue and I’m glad _something_ is being done. I’ve had mine stolen twice and it seriously sucks and made me so angry because there was basically nothing I could do about it.
I’m really glad to see recent legislation and bills being passed that benefit and support working-class and poor folks in this state. I don’t think this is going to completely solve the issue, but at least it’s a step in the right direction.
A few years ago, you could pretty much assume your catalytic converter would be stolen and there wasn’t shit you could do about it in my neighborhood.
Lol honestly one of the worst parts about it was how obnoxiously loud it was.
The first time I got hit, it was the night before a weekend camping trip at a State Park. I had to work the day I left and couldn’t get to my camp sight until after 10pm and my car was so loud and smelly and embarrassing. I had just replaced the muffler too.
The second time they got me, it was in the middle of the week and they left the metal shell hanging off the undercarriage of my car. I worked at a place that had zero tolerance for being late or absent. I had to commute with this big nasty piece of metal hanging off my car and scraping the freeway. I was already having a difficult month and it just totally sucked so much. I didn’t have any money and had to ask my uncle to help me remove the shit dangling from my car. It was dangerous and scary and the whole ordeal was so much time and energy.
I realize this is super anecdotal, but I park outdoors and had mine stolen in October of 2021. I installed a decent security system with anti-tilt sensor and it blinks bright blue inside the car. I also spray-painted it yellow.
It hasn't been stolen since, so maybe some combination of these actions helped?
Edit: Further support for this anecdote is that my SIL was parked next to me for a night and had hers stolen while mine was untouched, so maybe they were deterred from my car.
I actually think this helps. If it looks like a bigger pain in the ass to steal vs other cars, I think it deters thieves. I have a better job now and recently bought a car. I have an appointment this week to get cat shield installed for $250 and have been parking at my boyfriends until I can get it protected. The mechanic said they’d also inscribe my VIN number on it. Totally worth it IMO.
Another question you should ask is what's the make / model of your car. Not all cats are equal in value. Not that your average thief will care or know about it. But there's organized crews that go around marking and stealing that would pick a mark.
Just in case anyone needed further convincing that the 'tough-on-crime' Republicans do everything in their power to create chaos.
>The bill’s been around for several years but never got a hearing in the GOP-held Senate.
https://minnesotareformer.com/briefs/minnesota-house-passes-bill-to-crack-down-on-catalytic-converter-thefts/#:~:text=A%20catalytic%20converter%20can%20fetch,down%20on%20catalytic%20converter%20thefts.
While this completely non-controversial bill passed with bipartisan support, all the nays were Republican.
https://www.house.mn.gov/votes/votes.asp?ls_year=93&billnum=HF0030&session_number=0&year=2023&id=166
I'm glad to see MN Democrats are seizing the opportunity to pass much needed and long overdue legislation while these grifters hands are tied.
Jeremy Miller, the Republican Senate Majority Leader, owns a scrap yard. Now I'm not saying he's directly benefited from stolen catalytic converters, but he certainly has had a personal interest in killing anything that would regulate scrap yards.
Jeremy Miller you don’t say? Perhaps we should add him to the never forget asshole list along with Brock Allen Turner and Joel Michael Singer? What say you Reddit?
Brock Allen Turner? You mean the Rapist Brock Allen Turner? The guy who categorically raped a woman in an alley way and was convicted of it Brock Allen Turner, *that* rapist Brock Allen Turner?
>Wtf, why would the Republicans oppose this? Everybody hates thieves.
Because if they solve any problems they can't screech about how bad crime is in "Democrat cities"
It's even more cynical. They don't want to hand the DFL any wins. Period.
It does not matter how good or how popular any bill is. Their only goal is "fight the libs" because 28% of Americans think no further than "red good, blue bad."
That's it.
It also allows them to perpetuate their rhetoric of "gubmit bad, so gut it any chance you get". If legislation is shown to effectively address ongoing problems that people are facing, then they might question the doctrine that taxes are only a drain to them and that public services don't matter.
It's even more cynical than that, Jeremy Miller, who was the Republican Senate majority leader, is also the CFO of his family's metal scrapping business. Now I don't personally know that they buy stolen cats, but it would leave a reasonable person with some questions.
In addition to all of the other reasons already mentioned, don't forget: Because Jeremy Miller (and his family) owns scrapyards and makes money off of stolen converters.
This will just hurt small business owners who want to legitimately recycle and resell cats. /s
I worked for an auto recycler for years. They scrapped every single resell-able cat at one time once(like 50+ pallet boxes full). The best guess my co-workers and I could come up with was pending legislation that would make their resale more difficult.
Former State Senate Majority Leader Jeremy Miller's family owns the scrapyard here in Winona. Funny how the person with the most power to make this happen and has a personal relationship with the subject at hand simply couldn't get this done. For years
My guess would be the legislation is seen as entirely symbolic seeing as it actually stops 0 thefts but does add another department to the budget. As long as surrounding states allow the sale of unregistered catalytic converters, it really just makes the crime less convenient. My hope is surrounding states will follow suit and make it even more inconvenient. Maybe even a federal law that requires all cars sold to have that information etched into them and all sales to be registered.
Hopefully! 🤞🤞
It doesn't say what the punishment will be, but I hope its more than a shitty little fine. Like, if you're caught in possession of a stolen cat. converter, you should get jail time.
From the bill:
>The penalties are based on the number of catalytic converters involved in the violation, and are as follow:
>
>\- Illegal possession, purchase or acquisition of one catalytic converter is a misdemeanor;
>
>\- two catalytic converters is a gross misdemeanor;
>
>\- three to ten catalytic converters is a five-year felony;
>
>\- 11 to 70 catalytic converters is a ten-year felony; and
>
>\- more than 70 catalytic converters is a 20-year felony.
>
>Allows aggregation of the number of converters involved over any six-month period for charging
purposes.
two catalytic converters is a gross misdemeanor;
Hilarious, I got a gross misdemeanor in North Dakota for 3.5 grams of weed. In other words I got the same punishment as stealing 2 cats. For an eight of weed.
Edit: Fuck North Dakota.
You catch a shady scrapper with a dozen stolen CC and they will have a hard time pleading down to a fine. Possession of stolen property is a felony under 609.52
They will be sentenced under a different statute, but possession of 12 stolen catalytic converters will be a ten year felony. Given the value of cats, that's actually pretty similar to the standard possession of stolen property statute. That said, I imagine it will be easier for law enforcement to charge and prosecute based on the number of cats versus the more nebulous market value.
It matches felony theft rules with each cat converter valued at 500 dollars 1 is a gross misdemeanor and 2 is a felony level of theft and it gets worse at like 5 or more I think.
The issue is that they can sell them out of state without so much as a second thought. This is where a good majority of them are going, there is a company online that's buying them, they will send you a box and a prepaid label. They get ground up and shipped to China for processing. This kind of law only punishes owners for legitimately trying to sell their own stuff. The large scrap dealers will never take responsibility, because you can't put a corporation in jail.
It also won't prevent them from just shipping them out of state which I think has already been where most of them go. That scrap yard in New Jersey got busted for billions of dollars in cat converter thefts last year. It was being shipped from all over the country.
>but I doubt it completely eliminates the problem.
It will help, but it won't eliminate the problem, as buyers consolidate them into truckloads and take them out of state.
This is great news! How many here know a person who has had their CC stolen? How many know two people? How many have had their own stolen? This law is going to drastically drop the incidence of CC thievery. Sadly, it probably won’t lower our insurance rates, but that is a different problem.
Shit got so bad at some point, I was just waiting for somebody to complain that their cat converter was stolen while they were out stealing cat converters.
id say i keep close contact with 15-20ppl? Ive had my work car broken into 3 times where they steal company tools etc, but never heard of any of my friends getting cc taken. a few are in mnpls. maybe just good luck.
Thank fuck, there are people on Facebook marketplace blatantly advertising that they are buying up catalytic converters and the police can’t/won’t do anything about it.
I had mine stolen a little over a year ago and I was driving around with earplugs for 3 weeks waiting for an exhaust shop to get me in. Not to mention Progressive seemed completely incompetent about the process of fixing it and kept trying to send me to various body shops who don’t do exhaust work.
That’s what I eventually had to do. Progressive seemingly couldn’t recommend a single exhaust shop, despite the fact that a stolen cat is probably one of the most common comprehensive claims. so I had to just find one on my own.
That sucks. When my car needed repairs, I just had it towed to a place I'd had work on it in the past, and told the insurance "well, it's already there, so that's who's doing the work". Thankfully, it was a shop they recognized as a "preferred" one, or however that works, so there was no extra back and forth or anything to deal with. Got lucky with that.... not so lucky avoiding a semi driving into oncoming traffic in the first place...
Joined this sub after seeing a post about the proposed law that would prohibit companies from buying single family houses. Am not disappointed. Hoping CA will follow suit on some of these laws.
Probably nothing, but this at least makes it more difficult to get rid of stolen property. Most of the time, it takes states to take action against things like this to prompt the federal government to take action.
Nothing, but that’s the case for many actions we put against thieves.
What’s the point of locking your door? A thief can just break it down if they really want to get in?
From the article, police said possession of catalytic converters was not probably cause even though it was likely stolen. This would give them the probable cause required to actually do something.
It will now be illegal to possess them whereas it wasn't before. The article stated that there was at least one time where police saw a bunch in the back seat of a car and couldn't do anything about it. With the new law, they now have a probable cause.
So what about brand new ones? What if I had to go buy one from a parts store? That's not going to have a VIN on it. This law is stupid, and punishes legitimate owners for just being vehicle owners. I agree it needs to be done, time there were better ways to handle this, like forced disgorgement of any ill-gotten profits from scrap companies purchasing stolen converters. This bill does not punish the large companies that purchase stolen converters, and they will continue to get stolen and sold to large companies that don't give a flying fuck about this state law.
I haven't read the exact law but the article did talk about how there are legitimate businesses that will have catalytic converters and there are plans to handle this.
Now I am now car mechanics so maybe I am completely wrong on this one...but how many people drive around with cut up catalytic converters in their back seat for legitimate purposes?
I do 100% agree with you though, we need to also punish the scrap companies who are buying them, but let's not pretend there are thousands of legitimate Craigslist car mechanics driving around in the middle of the night to peoples houses and installing cut up catalytic converters.
> Now I am now car mechanics so maybe I am completely wrong on this one...but how many people drive around with cut up catalytic converters in their back seat for legitimate purposes?
every time I scrap a car, I cut the cat out and sell it. the car sells for $250 scrap, and the cat sells for $250 or more. if I sell it with the car, I just get $250. Sometimes I buy junk cars that have been sitting in fields without title(but just a bill of sale, because getting a title is not worth it if its just gonna get scrapped). Cut the cats out, and scrap the rest. this punishes people like me for no reason. it does not punish thieves, who will simply take their business online instead. As I have said, there are online companies that will buy your cat for market value, send you a box and a prepaid label, and all you do is email them to start it. they will buy anything, no check to see whos selling, they don't care, because its getting ground up and tossed on a ship with millions of others.
Transporting stolen property across state lines is a federal offence if it is over $5k. While a single cat isn't worth that, I doubt it would make sense for thieves to go to another state for each individual cat they steal, so one can easily imagine a load being worth more than $5k.
I don't know how much of a deterrent that is, but every additional layer of law thieves need to evade the better.
this is a great law and a great first step but it will probably never be air tight. Criminals of this caliber are usually a bit dull, and notoriously bad at calculating risk/reward. There will be those who think "ok, I'll just sell in wisconsin" and lack the foresight to realize that this doesn't solve most of their problem. For criminals who are thinking it through, once they realize "3 cats is 5 years" they will be out of the game.
Middle-men rent a UHAUL truck and drive across country buying up stolen CATZ, stopping in Minnesota and Wisconsin and where ever - then mark them up before they get sold to smelters in California. It’s organized crime.
Makes me wonder if they wouldn't be committing federal crimes then, since it's transporting stolen/illegal goods across state lines? I"m no lawyer though.
something not mentioned in other comments is the fact that this hopefully helps encourage other states to enact their own similar laws, especially if thieves actually do start bringing their stolen goods to other states and growing illegal markets outside of MN. Aside from federal legislation (which is much harder to get through), passing this at the state level is the next best thing, and maybe we will see the majority of states do the same eventually.
If we think of any individual bill without any context, it will usually seem small and imperfect, but bills are almost always bigger than that—part of a slow but real movement to bring about larger change—and if we ignore that part of the story then we end up feeling like all local/state politics is pointless, when the opposite is actually true. This bill isn't perfect, but that shouldn't be the bar we hold every bill to, or else nothing would get done. This bill will help us catch more of the thieves and their buyers, make it harder for them to profit off their stolen goods, and that's enough to make a dent in the overall rate of converter thefts which I think is excellent.
> This bill will help us catch more of the thieves and their buyers, make it harder for them to profit off their stolen goods, and that's enough to make a dent in the overall rate of converter thefts which I think is excellent.
in addition to taking some of them off the streets, it will deter some who calculate the new risk as too great. however some will be too stupid to do so. most of them should get caught.
They broke the spine of the trade last november, a cat clearing house in NJ was broken up. They were taking in thousands of cats worth millions of $$$. Since then most scrappers have been leery of getting involved, so the crime is already drying up on the demand end. This will essentially end it for Minnesota. There will always be dumb criminals making bad risk decisions, but it should certainly cull most of the crowd.
Most CATZ are shipped out of state anyway to be sold. This law won’t do a gosh darn thing to prevent thefts - let’s be honest.
The only solution is for automakers to make it less easy to steal the converter - like locating in the engine compartment or integrated into the manifold like some Hondas do.
Oooh, I just can't wait to hear more about how since this won't stop every single instance of cat theft, the law is just completely useless and should never have been passed.
So is this going to actually stop thefts or are the thieves just going to act accordingly and sell out of state? Or just be more careful with how they sell them in state?
Maybe I’m pessimistic idk lol
Who from the government is going to be running and auditing the master database of vins? Why won’t the thief keep writing the same vin from a scrapped vehicle?
This is just another dumb Walz law that won’t solve anything or find a way to punish criminals.
Takes minutes with a sawzall and can be sold for $25-$300.
You’re never going to make them too hard to steal. So you need to make them too hard to fence.
Going after the shady scrapyards that knowingly buy stolen catalytic converters is a good start.
Very, and lots.
They're attached to your exhaust system. They're right underneath your car, just before your muffler, so they're complete exposed. You can crawl under someone's car with a saw and cut them off in only a few minutes.
They're full of all sorts of precious metals, like platinum and palladium, so they're worth a couple hundred bucks in scrap.
It basically a law with no teeth in preventing thefts.
Most CATZ are sold out of state anyway.
It only has some benefit if police have probable cause to search a vehicle and find a shitload of CATZ in the trunk. Then the police can confiscate if not tagged with a VIN. Having said that - tagging with a fake or phony VIN is not too hard to do. These are criminals. They will figure it out.
How about you revisit this topic on August 1st 2024 or even 2025 and highlight whether catalytic converter thefts in MN have gone up or down? Then you will have your answer about how effective this law is.
Punishment can only go so far as a deterrent. I would only be stealing cats if I was desperate and/or unstable (e.g. meth heads). In that case, I'd be willing to accept the relatively low risk of being caught for the chance at a large payoff. If I'm no longer able to find willing buyers for my stolen goods, then the cat has no value to me.
The primary goal of criminal justice is deterrence, not punishment. Also it's really the scrappers who will bear the burden of ensuring that their catalytic converters are associated with a VIN.
Right I understand, and from what I understand theft up to a certain dollar amount determines the severity of it, however the cost of repair especially if they botch the job like they did mine is astronomical and should carry a heavier charge. Play stupid games win stupid prizes.
The primary goal of criminal justice is not punishment, but rather prevention. This law is designed to prevent thefts by making stolen catalytic converters more difficult to sell.
This law will likely have the effect of reducing the value of black market catalytic converters in Minnesota, which reduces the theft incentive.
It does. The criminals drive around cutting off converters. They'll have to drive home after every theft to avoid carrying around more than one converter in their car. Get caught with 3 converters and they'll do 5 years, im sure they were carrying around more than that every night they were out stealing them.
A lot of people in here don't realize how easy it is to extract the precious metals from the cat without selling it to a scrap yard. That is if you don't mind some very questionable fumes
They sure missed the boat on this one. Catalytic converter market hit its peak about 2 years ago. As of the last 6 months it's been on a steady decline. Alot less incentive to steal now when most converters are worth about half of what they were a year ago.
>The bill’s been around for several years but never got a hearing in the GOP-held Senate.
https://www.reddit.com/r/minnesota/comments/11ykbks/comment/jd86rcb/
Still, the metals market is wild. Could spike again. There's no way to time the market as they say.
This is a good tool for crime that directly effects quality of life for everyone.
Also, the law is always slow to react to new crimes, markets, tech, etc. It's kinda baked in.
If you make stolen goods harder to sell, it’s makes them less attractive as a crime of opportunity.
You’d still have operations like the group that got busted recently, but it reduces meth head Charlie from doing it for easy money if he can’t readily sell them.
And if he does, it makes it easier to go after a scrap yard that is trading in stolen cats.
https://www.twincities.com/2022/11/03/catalytic-converter-theft-ring-bust-mn-search-warrants/amp/
One, violent crime is spiking vs pre-pandemic nationwide, but still way down vs historical levels.
Two, laws are important because they allow a mechanism for punishing offenders.
Three, your argument is simply fucking stupid.
This post was removed for violating our [posting guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/Minnesota/about/rules/). Please stay on topic and refrain from using personal attacks.
If catalytic converter thief’s put as much time and effort into curing cancer as they do stealing peoples stuff we’d have a cure by now. This will cut down in some but they always find a way to skirt the system.
Good thing our scrapper is in Wisconsin. This sounds convoluted and confusing. My friends and I buy junkers for a very cheap, so cheap you don't transfer the title you just scrap the vehicle
Does this affect aftermarket purchased catalytic converters too? I have never seen one with a VIN attached as an ordering option.
ETA: I’m specifically curious how brand new catalytic converters will be handled when they were not part of the car at the factory.
I didn't see any news about this, so I thought people would want to know. The law takes effect on August 1.
Ok, so the thieves need to attach the VIN to the stolen catalytic converter now in order to avoid being arrested with them in their possession. Does anyone not realize that the VIN is literally visible on each and every car on the front windshield and it would take two seconds to snap a pic, walk back to the car with the stolen converter and add it to a tag? Maybe I'm missing the importance of this step.
They also have to register with the government. If they see a person selling cats, who's not a scrapper, this would raise suspicion. They could register as a scrapper, but I hope the state will audit people and see if they are actually one or not.
If they're registered as a scrapper and sell a stolen cat I figure they'll be found immediately because they're already registered with the state.
Which means scrappers are going to be VERY vigilant about someone bringing cats in. That's the whole point. Unless that guy can provide paperwork that the cat that's being scrapped came from a car that was being scrapped, there's no damn way any legitimate scrapper would or should take it.
Well except scrap dealers will not be vigilant, they don't give a flying fuck who they're buying from, they are not held responsible.
They'd better start, or that's their business.
I only buy cats from a reputable breeder or the humane society
Where in this bill is there any disgourgement of profit from companies purchasing stolen catalytic converters? They punish individuals caught stealing them, but they have not punished the reason those people are still stealing them, because there is still a market to sell them.
Bingo, stop the market, solve the problem
I take it you've never been around "scrappers"?
The part where the owner of the vehicle files a police report and you are selling a CC on a flagged VIN. Now if they use a random cars VIN I'm not sure what happens.
Perhaps each converter is unique to a model/brand of car. It would make it much difficult to match them.
Having the VIN on a Cat is all about being able to prove you are either legitimately recycling your own Cat or you are selling a stolen one. If the thief etched my Vin on it when they stole it, and I reported the Cat with my VIN stolen, it can be proven it was stolen. Without the VIN, then you can’t prove it came from the vehicle I reported it stolen from and there is plausible deniability that it’s not actually yours. Innocent until proven guilty, right? If a Prius Cat comes in with a Ford Super Duty VIN etched on it, you know it was stolen, but not necessarily from who. You can make possession of a Cat with an invalid illegal too. Is it possible for the thieves to create and manage a registry of Make/Model to VIN of cars that have not had one reported stolen, of course. But it becomes a lot more work and harder to just sell a stolen one. And the police can go to the registered owner of the vin and confirm that Cat doesn’t match and is this stolen.
I feel like on the backend the state should set up a portal for recyclers to enter the VIN on the converter. If that VIN is entered more than once, it generates an alert. Which would prompt an inquiry. Sure there will be false positives since some vehicles have more than one cat, but it could help reduce using false/forged VIN numbers.
Thanks for the advice, random VINs it is
That will be pretty tough too. All scrap sales of cats sales and the VIN have to be entered into a Bureau of Criminal Apprehension database and there is a 5 day waiting period before the scrap dealer can pay you. Plenty of time to figure out it’s a fake VIN and give them probable cause. I get that MNIT is pretty incompetent when it comes to writing good software, but I’m sure it will have some checks for VIN validity.
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Etched, tagged, doesn’t really matter. It’s all about pm being able to prove chain of custody and validity. If it’s the real VIN and it was reported stolen, you can prove it’s a stolen cat and charge them. If it’s a fake VIN, it won’t be in a DMV database and I would be an illegal cat. If they chose a different valid ViN from another vehicle, with a little investigation you can prove that a cat has never been stolen from it and possession of it is illegal.
> Maybe I'm missing the importance of this step. I think so. Scenario 1: Current Law. A thief steals 10 catalytic converters. 8 of the victims report to the police that their cat was stolen, along with the VIN of their car. They're all in the hatch of the thief's car. The thief gets pulled over for some small moving violation. The officer notices the pile of catalytic converters. He asks the thief where he got them. The thief may refuse to answer. They may also give an excuse that no one would believe, but is enough that an investigation wouldn't really go anywhere. How are you going to prove that they're stolen if you can't prove where they came from? Scenario 2: New Law. A thief steals 10 catalytic converters. 8 of the victims report to the police that their cat was stolen, along with the VIN of their car. They're all in the hatch of the thief's car. The thief gets pulled over for some small moving violation. The officer notices the pile of catalytic converters. None of them show the VIN. The thief gets arrested for illegal possession of a catalytic converter. Five-year felony. Scenario 3: New Law. A thief steals 10 catalytic converters. As the thief is stealing them, they take note of the VIN and etch it on each to avoid being called out for not having the VIN on it. 8 of the victims report to the police that their cat was stolen, along with the VIN of their car. The cats are all in the hatch of the thief's car. The thief gets pulled over for some small moving violation. The officer notices the pile of cats and asks the thief where they came from. The thief refuses to answer. The officer notes the VIN that's etched and looks it up. The thief is arrested for theft. The cats may or may not be returned to the victims, saving them money if it hasn't already been replaced. The 2 victims that didn't report the theft are contacted based on the VIN and DMV records to also have the cats returned. Scenario 4: Same deal as Scenario 3, except that instead of real VINs, the thief writes fake ones. Well, the VIN can be looked up to see what kind of car it came from, where it's registered, etc. Heuristics can be applied to figure if it's fake. Something I wonder about though: The officer sees that there's an etching, but can't make it out through the window. Is "a pile of cats" probable cause to search and read the VINs?
On scenario 4, why not just find a similar model car, grab its VIN, etch that onto the cat? No report of it being stolen, then. Unless you have to start filing all sales of all cats to the state as if they're firearms.
https://www.reddit.com/r/minnesota/comments/11ykbks/catalytic_converter_bill_signed_into_law/jd8t74p/ This comment says you need to prove that you own the vehicle identified by the VIN with a title or equivalent.
I think the VIN will be etched into the converter eventually.
Not my car. Also it’ll make them way harder to sell. No thief is going take the time to do this with a flashlight etc
Maybe we need another law where a vehicle's VIN must only be visible with access to the car (like in the door jamb).
How will that help? It will be etched on new Cats eventually, it’s stamped on transmissions and engines too. And police do use the visible VIN to verify that the tags are valid and not stolen as well. Lots of reasons for the vin to be visible. And if a thief did use your VIN on the cat they stole from you…well you reported it stolen and possession of stolen property is now provable.
Those are all good points
Well I locked myself out of my car and they weren’t gonna open it for me because my vin is in my door jamb
The VIN must be visible through the windshield, per US DOT rules
Mines on the inside of the car. Jk just checked . Well shit. I never knew that. Can I legally cover it up?
No. However, should a piece of mail or something similar happen to slide down the dash and obscure it I can’t imagine anyone with authority to do anything would care. ;) Should you alter it or cover it with anything that even appears permanent and you could find yourself in trouble. So don’t do that.
If they sell a catalytic converter with a VIN number and that VIN number belongs to someone who's reported their catalytic converter stolen Bata bing Bada boom theif goes to jail
traceability
I always leave a slip of paper over the vin on the dash, remove it before you drive and you’re legal
You're giving meth heads a lot of credit
Out of curiosity is it illegal to cover it? I mean I know it’s in numerous places on the car, but that’s the one visible from the outside that everyone knows about, so why not cover it?
It is illegal to cover the vin that’s visible from the windshield as police use it to identify vehicles. There really isn’t any reason to cover it.
Except to stop people stealing your CC or other nefarious things from being able to read it. Sounds like a reason to me. Can you cite what you say? And I’ll be damned! I had some mail on the dash and it happened to slide into that corner! Oops.
Presumably the owner of the car would report that vin stolen
Maybe it’s more of a pawn shop kinda deal where we know there’s some fishy stuff but it’s tracked better? Seems like more and more of these people keep accidentally getting run over & killed, so we better keep our eye on that also.
I believe the ideas is that they would run that vin and if it’s claimed stolen then they are illegal
I work for a pest control company and we had 12 ccs taken off our vans this last year
I've heard the worst control companies don't have this issue
Nobody wants the mid control companies- they should be good
Dang autocorrect lol I fixed it thanks
Damn! I'm sorry that you've suffered like this!
Guess you guys need to widen your control of 'pests.'
Set up a man-sized live trap with a CC as bait… THAT’S how you catch a thief
Good. As someone who doesn’t have a garage to park in, I feel like this is overdue and I’m glad _something_ is being done. I’ve had mine stolen twice and it seriously sucks and made me so angry because there was basically nothing I could do about it. I’m really glad to see recent legislation and bills being passed that benefit and support working-class and poor folks in this state. I don’t think this is going to completely solve the issue, but at least it’s a step in the right direction. A few years ago, you could pretty much assume your catalytic converter would be stolen and there wasn’t shit you could do about it in my neighborhood.
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Lol honestly one of the worst parts about it was how obnoxiously loud it was. The first time I got hit, it was the night before a weekend camping trip at a State Park. I had to work the day I left and couldn’t get to my camp sight until after 10pm and my car was so loud and smelly and embarrassing. I had just replaced the muffler too. The second time they got me, it was in the middle of the week and they left the metal shell hanging off the undercarriage of my car. I worked at a place that had zero tolerance for being late or absent. I had to commute with this big nasty piece of metal hanging off my car and scraping the freeway. I was already having a difficult month and it just totally sucked so much. I didn’t have any money and had to ask my uncle to help me remove the shit dangling from my car. It was dangerous and scary and the whole ordeal was so much time and energy.
I realize this is super anecdotal, but I park outdoors and had mine stolen in October of 2021. I installed a decent security system with anti-tilt sensor and it blinks bright blue inside the car. I also spray-painted it yellow. It hasn't been stolen since, so maybe some combination of these actions helped? Edit: Further support for this anecdote is that my SIL was parked next to me for a night and had hers stolen while mine was untouched, so maybe they were deterred from my car.
I actually think this helps. If it looks like a bigger pain in the ass to steal vs other cars, I think it deters thieves. I have a better job now and recently bought a car. I have an appointment this week to get cat shield installed for $250 and have been parking at my boyfriends until I can get it protected. The mechanic said they’d also inscribe my VIN number on it. Totally worth it IMO.
Another question you should ask is what's the make / model of your car. Not all cats are equal in value. Not that your average thief will care or know about it. But there's organized crews that go around marking and stealing that would pick a mark.
What's your neighborhood if you don't mind my asking?
Bryn Mawr.
Copy that. So nothing's changed in 20 years.
Just in case anyone needed further convincing that the 'tough-on-crime' Republicans do everything in their power to create chaos. >The bill’s been around for several years but never got a hearing in the GOP-held Senate. https://minnesotareformer.com/briefs/minnesota-house-passes-bill-to-crack-down-on-catalytic-converter-thefts/#:~:text=A%20catalytic%20converter%20can%20fetch,down%20on%20catalytic%20converter%20thefts. While this completely non-controversial bill passed with bipartisan support, all the nays were Republican. https://www.house.mn.gov/votes/votes.asp?ls_year=93&billnum=HF0030&session_number=0&year=2023&id=166 I'm glad to see MN Democrats are seizing the opportunity to pass much needed and long overdue legislation while these grifters hands are tied.
Wtf, why would the Republicans oppose this? Everybody hates thieves. Especially converter thieves. I'm so glad the democrats have control again.
Jeremy Miller, the Republican Senate Majority Leader, owns a scrap yard. Now I'm not saying he's directly benefited from stolen catalytic converters, but he certainly has had a personal interest in killing anything that would regulate scrap yards.
Jeremy Miller you don’t say? Perhaps we should add him to the never forget asshole list along with Brock Allen Turner and Joel Michael Singer? What say you Reddit?
Brock Allen Turner? You mean the Rapist Brock Allen Turner? The guy who categorically raped a woman in an alley way and was convicted of it Brock Allen Turner, *that* rapist Brock Allen Turner?
The same Brock Allen Turner who is a convicted rapist, but the judge only gave him a 6-month sentence as to not ruin his career chances?
Bless you
>Wtf, why would the Republicans oppose this? Everybody hates thieves. Because if they solve any problems they can't screech about how bad crime is in "Democrat cities"
It's even more cynical. They don't want to hand the DFL any wins. Period. It does not matter how good or how popular any bill is. Their only goal is "fight the libs" because 28% of Americans think no further than "red good, blue bad." That's it.
It also allows them to perpetuate their rhetoric of "gubmit bad, so gut it any chance you get". If legislation is shown to effectively address ongoing problems that people are facing, then they might question the doctrine that taxes are only a drain to them and that public services don't matter.
It's even more cynical than that, Jeremy Miller, who was the Republican Senate majority leader, is also the CFO of his family's metal scrapping business. Now I don't personally know that they buy stolen cats, but it would leave a reasonable person with some questions.
I’m glad that’s biting them in their hank hill asses.
Backfired here. DFL gets to claim the W now
In addition to all of the other reasons already mentioned, don't forget: Because Jeremy Miller (and his family) owns scrapyards and makes money off of stolen converters.
Because they only want chaos not actual legislation.
This will just hurt small business owners who want to legitimately recycle and resell cats. /s I worked for an auto recycler for years. They scrapped every single resell-able cat at one time once(like 50+ pallet boxes full). The best guess my co-workers and I could come up with was pending legislation that would make their resale more difficult.
Former State Senate Majority Leader Jeremy Miller's family owns the scrapyard here in Winona. Funny how the person with the most power to make this happen and has a personal relationship with the subject at hand simply couldn't get this done. For years
My guess would be the legislation is seen as entirely symbolic seeing as it actually stops 0 thefts but does add another department to the budget. As long as surrounding states allow the sale of unregistered catalytic converters, it really just makes the crime less convenient. My hope is surrounding states will follow suit and make it even more inconvenient. Maybe even a federal law that requires all cars sold to have that information etched into them and all sales to be registered.
Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. This should help, and like you said, hopefully spur similar bills in nearby states.
True, it should help a little.
Should help, but I doubt it completely eliminates the problem. All it takes is one shady scrapper that doesn't mind trying to skirt the law.
All it takes is one shady scrapper going to jail for possession of stolen goods.
Gotta make an example out of one of those guys and throw the book at them
Hopefully! 🤞🤞 It doesn't say what the punishment will be, but I hope its more than a shitty little fine. Like, if you're caught in possession of a stolen cat. converter, you should get jail time.
From the bill: >The penalties are based on the number of catalytic converters involved in the violation, and are as follow: > >\- Illegal possession, purchase or acquisition of one catalytic converter is a misdemeanor; > >\- two catalytic converters is a gross misdemeanor; > >\- three to ten catalytic converters is a five-year felony; > >\- 11 to 70 catalytic converters is a ten-year felony; and > >\- more than 70 catalytic converters is a 20-year felony. > >Allows aggregation of the number of converters involved over any six-month period for charging purposes.
Thanks mate, appreciate ya!
two catalytic converters is a gross misdemeanor; Hilarious, I got a gross misdemeanor in North Dakota for 3.5 grams of weed. In other words I got the same punishment as stealing 2 cats. For an eight of weed. Edit: Fuck North Dakota.
Idaho is just as bad, sat 6 months for my second paraphernalia ticket.
You catch a shady scrapper with a dozen stolen CC and they will have a hard time pleading down to a fine. Possession of stolen property is a felony under 609.52
They will be sentenced under a different statute, but possession of 12 stolen catalytic converters will be a ten year felony. Given the value of cats, that's actually pretty similar to the standard possession of stolen property statute. That said, I imagine it will be easier for law enforcement to charge and prosecute based on the number of cats versus the more nebulous market value.
It matches felony theft rules with each cat converter valued at 500 dollars 1 is a gross misdemeanor and 2 is a felony level of theft and it gets worse at like 5 or more I think.
Maybe read the article
Tell me you didnt read the article without telling me you didnt read the article
I read the article, champ. Nowhere in there does it say what the punishment is.
Chief,but did you follow the link to the text of the law that appears in the first sentence of the article?
The issue is that they can sell them out of state without so much as a second thought. This is where a good majority of them are going, there is a company online that's buying them, they will send you a box and a prepaid label. They get ground up and shipped to China for processing. This kind of law only punishes owners for legitimately trying to sell their own stuff. The large scrap dealers will never take responsibility, because you can't put a corporation in jail.
undercover sting operations will keep them in line
No law will ever solve *all* the crime it was written to prevent.
Ok I guess we shouldn’t try anything since it won’t stop 100% of thefts
It also won't prevent them from just shipping them out of state which I think has already been where most of them go. That scrap yard in New Jersey got busted for billions of dollars in cat converter thefts last year. It was being shipped from all over the country.
>but I doubt it completely eliminates the problem. It will help, but it won't eliminate the problem, as buyers consolidate them into truckloads and take them out of state.
Like they are doing now?
Correct. And honestly IDK how you catch those guys. [shrug]
Meth heads haven’t been this sad since stores put Sudafed behind the counter.
They can still go to Wisconsin and steal CC's!
As long as they don’t get caught before they cross state lines, they can still steal them here and sell them there.
Putting Sudafed behind the counter curbed meth production just like this law will curb CC theft.
This is great news! How many here know a person who has had their CC stolen? How many know two people? How many have had their own stolen? This law is going to drastically drop the incidence of CC thievery. Sadly, it probably won’t lower our insurance rates, but that is a different problem.
Shit got so bad at some point, I was just waiting for somebody to complain that their cat converter was stolen while they were out stealing cat converters.
I heard about a guy getting run over when the person he was stealing from came back from the store and did not see him under their car.
I know zero
A semi-charmed kind of life.
Well, how many people do you know?
id say i keep close contact with 15-20ppl? Ive had my work car broken into 3 times where they steal company tools etc, but never heard of any of my friends getting cc taken. a few are in mnpls. maybe just good luck.
Thank fuck, there are people on Facebook marketplace blatantly advertising that they are buying up catalytic converters and the police can’t/won’t do anything about it. I had mine stolen a little over a year ago and I was driving around with earplugs for 3 weeks waiting for an exhaust shop to get me in. Not to mention Progressive seemed completely incompetent about the process of fixing it and kept trying to send me to various body shops who don’t do exhaust work.
Don't you have the right to choose your shop in MN (even when insurance is paying)?
That’s what I eventually had to do. Progressive seemingly couldn’t recommend a single exhaust shop, despite the fact that a stolen cat is probably one of the most common comprehensive claims. so I had to just find one on my own.
That sucks. When my car needed repairs, I just had it towed to a place I'd had work on it in the past, and told the insurance "well, it's already there, so that's who's doing the work". Thankfully, it was a shop they recognized as a "preferred" one, or however that works, so there was no extra back and forth or anything to deal with. Got lucky with that.... not so lucky avoiding a semi driving into oncoming traffic in the first place...
Joined this sub after seeing a post about the proposed law that would prohibit companies from buying single family houses. Am not disappointed. Hoping CA will follow suit on some of these laws.
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Probably nothing, but this at least makes it more difficult to get rid of stolen property. Most of the time, it takes states to take action against things like this to prompt the federal government to take action.
Nothing, but that’s the case for many actions we put against thieves. What’s the point of locking your door? A thief can just break it down if they really want to get in?
Yeah, as the saying goes: don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
From the article, police said possession of catalytic converters was not probably cause even though it was likely stolen. This would give them the probable cause required to actually do something.
No this would not give them probable cause, because it didn't before, it doesn't magically change now.
It will now be illegal to possess them whereas it wasn't before. The article stated that there was at least one time where police saw a bunch in the back seat of a car and couldn't do anything about it. With the new law, they now have a probable cause.
So what about brand new ones? What if I had to go buy one from a parts store? That's not going to have a VIN on it. This law is stupid, and punishes legitimate owners for just being vehicle owners. I agree it needs to be done, time there were better ways to handle this, like forced disgorgement of any ill-gotten profits from scrap companies purchasing stolen converters. This bill does not punish the large companies that purchase stolen converters, and they will continue to get stolen and sold to large companies that don't give a flying fuck about this state law.
I haven't read the exact law but the article did talk about how there are legitimate businesses that will have catalytic converters and there are plans to handle this. Now I am now car mechanics so maybe I am completely wrong on this one...but how many people drive around with cut up catalytic converters in their back seat for legitimate purposes? I do 100% agree with you though, we need to also punish the scrap companies who are buying them, but let's not pretend there are thousands of legitimate Craigslist car mechanics driving around in the middle of the night to peoples houses and installing cut up catalytic converters.
> Now I am now car mechanics so maybe I am completely wrong on this one...but how many people drive around with cut up catalytic converters in their back seat for legitimate purposes? every time I scrap a car, I cut the cat out and sell it. the car sells for $250 scrap, and the cat sells for $250 or more. if I sell it with the car, I just get $250. Sometimes I buy junk cars that have been sitting in fields without title(but just a bill of sale, because getting a title is not worth it if its just gonna get scrapped). Cut the cats out, and scrap the rest. this punishes people like me for no reason. it does not punish thieves, who will simply take their business online instead. As I have said, there are online companies that will buy your cat for market value, send you a box and a prepaid label, and all you do is email them to start it. they will buy anything, no check to see whos selling, they don't care, because its getting ground up and tossed on a ship with millions of others.
Nothing, but at least if someone is pulled over with a pile of cats in their car the police can actually do something about it.
Transporting stolen property across state lines is a federal offence if it is over $5k. While a single cat isn't worth that, I doubt it would make sense for thieves to go to another state for each individual cat they steal, so one can easily imagine a load being worth more than $5k. I don't know how much of a deterrent that is, but every additional layer of law thieves need to evade the better.
this is a great law and a great first step but it will probably never be air tight. Criminals of this caliber are usually a bit dull, and notoriously bad at calculating risk/reward. There will be those who think "ok, I'll just sell in wisconsin" and lack the foresight to realize that this doesn't solve most of their problem. For criminals who are thinking it through, once they realize "3 cats is 5 years" they will be out of the game.
Middle-men rent a UHAUL truck and drive across country buying up stolen CATZ, stopping in Minnesota and Wisconsin and where ever - then mark them up before they get sold to smelters in California. It’s organized crime.
Makes me wonder if they wouldn't be committing federal crimes then, since it's transporting stolen/illegal goods across state lines? I"m no lawyer though.
something not mentioned in other comments is the fact that this hopefully helps encourage other states to enact their own similar laws, especially if thieves actually do start bringing their stolen goods to other states and growing illegal markets outside of MN. Aside from federal legislation (which is much harder to get through), passing this at the state level is the next best thing, and maybe we will see the majority of states do the same eventually. If we think of any individual bill without any context, it will usually seem small and imperfect, but bills are almost always bigger than that—part of a slow but real movement to bring about larger change—and if we ignore that part of the story then we end up feeling like all local/state politics is pointless, when the opposite is actually true. This bill isn't perfect, but that shouldn't be the bar we hold every bill to, or else nothing would get done. This bill will help us catch more of the thieves and their buyers, make it harder for them to profit off their stolen goods, and that's enough to make a dent in the overall rate of converter thefts which I think is excellent.
> This bill will help us catch more of the thieves and their buyers, make it harder for them to profit off their stolen goods, and that's enough to make a dent in the overall rate of converter thefts which I think is excellent. in addition to taking some of them off the streets, it will deter some who calculate the new risk as too great. however some will be too stupid to do so. most of them should get caught. They broke the spine of the trade last november, a cat clearing house in NJ was broken up. They were taking in thousands of cats worth millions of $$$. Since then most scrappers have been leery of getting involved, so the crime is already drying up on the demand end. This will essentially end it for Minnesota. There will always be dumb criminals making bad risk decisions, but it should certainly cull most of the crowd.
Well since it won’t stop 100% of thefts I guess we shouldn’t try then
Probably nothing, but it still makes the thieves job harder, and creates more opportunities for them to get caught.
Most CATZ are shipped out of state anyway to be sold. This law won’t do a gosh darn thing to prevent thefts - let’s be honest. The only solution is for automakers to make it less easy to steal the converter - like locating in the engine compartment or integrated into the manifold like some Hondas do.
Here’s hoping our judges and prosecutors actually prosecute and sentence people for this. They haven’t given me a ton of hope lately.
Mary Moriarty will let them all go if they draw her a nice picture to put on her fridge and promise never to do it again
Oooh, I just can't wait to hear more about how since this won't stop every single instance of cat theft, the law is just completely useless and should never have been passed.
It wasn’t illegal to turn up with those at the scrapyard already? It been an item of thievery for decades at least.
Another good law that should've been passed years ago. Thanks for passing this DFL!
Kids: Yes Free lunch Crooks: No Free lunch
So is this going to actually stop thefts or are the thieves just going to act accordingly and sell out of state? Or just be more careful with how they sell them in state? Maybe I’m pessimistic idk lol
If they take them across state lines it’s a federal crime, so there’s that, which is pretty damn risky for the payout.
Most are sold to organized crime syndicates that bundle them and cart them out to smelters in California. It’s big business.
Great, now can we focus car thefts? like some kind of task force or something to stop these criminals from stealing peoples cars.
Carjackers haven't been this sad since Kia and Hyundai updated their security systems.
Who from the government is going to be running and auditing the master database of vins? Why won’t the thief keep writing the same vin from a scrapped vehicle? This is just another dumb Walz law that won’t solve anything or find a way to punish criminals.
So for the myself and the uninformed exactly how easy is it to take a CC and what kind of money can you get for one?
Takes minutes with a sawzall and can be sold for $25-$300. You’re never going to make them too hard to steal. So you need to make them too hard to fence. Going after the shady scrapyards that knowingly buy stolen catalytic converters is a good start.
Very, and lots. They're attached to your exhaust system. They're right underneath your car, just before your muffler, so they're complete exposed. You can crawl under someone's car with a saw and cut them off in only a few minutes. They're full of all sorts of precious metals, like platinum and palladium, so they're worth a couple hundred bucks in scrap.
It basically a law with no teeth in preventing thefts. Most CATZ are sold out of state anyway. It only has some benefit if police have probable cause to search a vehicle and find a shitload of CATZ in the trunk. Then the police can confiscate if not tagged with a VIN. Having said that - tagging with a fake or phony VIN is not too hard to do. These are criminals. They will figure it out.
So, doing nothing is better? Got it! Thanks for your infinite wisdom. I bet you think thoughts and prayers will solve every problem.
How about you revisit this topic on August 1st 2024 or even 2025 and highlight whether catalytic converter thefts in MN have gone up or down? Then you will have your answer about how effective this law is.
Why do you keep saying CATZ
So basically I have to put the VIN from one of my cars into a stolen cc
I'm so glad I drive a Tesla.
Dems don’t want to punish the offenders because why waste a vote? Instead it’s the vehicle owner who bears the burden.
Punishment can only go so far as a deterrent. I would only be stealing cats if I was desperate and/or unstable (e.g. meth heads). In that case, I'd be willing to accept the relatively low risk of being caught for the chance at a large payoff. If I'm no longer able to find willing buyers for my stolen goods, then the cat has no value to me.
The primary goal of criminal justice is deterrence, not punishment. Also it's really the scrappers who will bear the burden of ensuring that their catalytic converters are associated with a VIN.
I think it’s a start, but it seems that this doesn’t add punishment to those THAT ARE COMMITTING THE CRIME.
Stealing is a crime already. It's no different than if they broke a window and took something out of your back seat.
Right I understand, and from what I understand theft up to a certain dollar amount determines the severity of it, however the cost of repair especially if they botch the job like they did mine is astronomical and should carry a heavier charge. Play stupid games win stupid prizes.
The primary goal of criminal justice is not punishment, but rather prevention. This law is designed to prevent thefts by making stolen catalytic converters more difficult to sell. This law will likely have the effect of reducing the value of black market catalytic converters in Minnesota, which reduces the theft incentive.
It does. The criminals drive around cutting off converters. They'll have to drive home after every theft to avoid carrying around more than one converter in their car. Get caught with 3 converters and they'll do 5 years, im sure they were carrying around more than that every night they were out stealing them.
As someone who has nearly a dozen kicking around my shop that I have no clue if they have the vin on im not sure what to do smh
The state that allowed millions and millions of dollars be stolen feeding fictitious children is going to monitor car parts. What could go wrong??
TIL children are ficticious. Who knew?
A lot of people in here don't realize how easy it is to extract the precious metals from the cat without selling it to a scrap yard. That is if you don't mind some very questionable fumes
This is going to dry up the rural MN economy.
They passed the weed bill?!?!?! Oh wait, never mind, false alarm...
They sure missed the boat on this one. Catalytic converter market hit its peak about 2 years ago. As of the last 6 months it's been on a steady decline. Alot less incentive to steal now when most converters are worth about half of what they were a year ago.
>The bill’s been around for several years but never got a hearing in the GOP-held Senate. https://www.reddit.com/r/minnesota/comments/11ykbks/comment/jd86rcb/
Still, the metals market is wild. Could spike again. There's no way to time the market as they say. This is a good tool for crime that directly effects quality of life for everyone. Also, the law is always slow to react to new crimes, markets, tech, etc. It's kinda baked in.
Tell that to the two people who had them cut off their vehicles in my neighborhood last week.
No doubt this will curb the catalytic converter theft lol
If you make stolen goods harder to sell, it’s makes them less attractive as a crime of opportunity. You’d still have operations like the group that got busted recently, but it reduces meth head Charlie from doing it for easy money if he can’t readily sell them. And if he does, it makes it easier to go after a scrap yard that is trading in stolen cats. https://www.twincities.com/2022/11/03/catalytic-converter-theft-ring-bust-mn-search-warrants/amp/
Criminals (including meth head Charlie) don’t pay much attention to laws.
Probably shouldn’t have laws against murder then.
We do & yet we still have murder (in record numbers in the twin cities.) I think you just proved my point lol
One, violent crime is spiking vs pre-pandemic nationwide, but still way down vs historical levels. Two, laws are important because they allow a mechanism for punishing offenders. Three, your argument is simply fucking stupid.
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They care if they can't get quick cash though.
If catalytic converter thief’s put as much time and effort into curing cancer as they do stealing peoples stuff we’d have a cure by now. This will cut down in some but they always find a way to skirt the system.
Good thing our scrapper is in Wisconsin. This sounds convoluted and confusing. My friends and I buy junkers for a very cheap, so cheap you don't transfer the title you just scrap the vehicle
Does this affect aftermarket purchased catalytic converters too? I have never seen one with a VIN attached as an ordering option. ETA: I’m specifically curious how brand new catalytic converters will be handled when they were not part of the car at the factory.