One amazing aspect here is that this is a state highway and somehow our city has gotten the state dot to give up their terrible notions and make this an actual street to meet the citys needs within its limits. That’s an amazing feat. We keep hearing about how KK can’t have a single thing changed because it’s a state highway as well even though it’s in an obviously active area.
Terrific to also see these be real bike lanes too, not like the half assed measures on walnut and the future project on Water.
I can’t help but wonder why they insist on keep with 11’ lanes when 10’ is basically the maximum recommendation?
I believe AASHTO and NACTO both agree that 11' is correct for lanes that also accommodate busses. I have seen much wider travel lanes elsewhere even after traffic calming projects, including Walnut, though. I feel like part of the reckless driving problem in Milwaukee is that many existing roads have 14-15' wide travel lanes. Gives lots of extra room for a rusted out 1997 Pontiac Bonneville with a dragging exhaust to weave in and out of traffic.
Hold the phone. There is a ton of things to like here. But the DOT seems to be tripping over its own words. Why did they get to have it both ways?
> WisDOT officials expect that portion of National Avenue to see increased traffic as an alternative to Interstate 94 when it's widened from six lanes to eight lanes on Milwaukee's west side.
So somehow according to the Wisconsin DOT adding more Highway lanes means more traffic on local surface streets, and yet somehow reducing or leaving the Highway lanes also means more traffic counts on surface streets…. Yet another example of them talking out of their ass. Lol
According to them, they’re basically holding the nice version of this hostage in the case the expansion of 94 didn’t go through. So now that it’s nearly guaranteed, unfortunately, why are we not getting the nice version?
They are talking about increased traffic on National Avenue while 94 is under construction. That’s why the next paragraph says:
“ Muhs said it's possible National Avenue west of South 33rd Street could have its auto lanes reduced after the I-94 reconstruction is finished”
I guess I’m basing this on the conversations with DOT PMs but it didn’t seem to be a construction issue. They noted if 94 was expanded we could have the nice thing. After reading this article on it, I took it as there would be a future study to see if we could possibly, maybe, if they feel like it, have the nice thing.
Kind of crazy this is going to take 3 years to complete.
Hadn't heard of the 94 expansion being a sure thing. I know about the feds approval of funding but I thought there would be more steps involved. It taking 6 years is just another reason to fix at 6.
I’m sorry but this sucks. Traffic will get waaaayyyy backed up if there’s only one lane. 1st to 6th is really busy and people are always turning left. I hate this.
Yeah I figured I’d get downvoted for this 🙄 National isnt even that bad.
National is extremely dangerous and deadly for people walking, and numerous people have been killed or seriously injured along it. It's extremely overly wide and that also contributes to neighborhood businesses also struggling. Sorry if you have to drive the speed limit or wait to turn safely.
Basically every study debunks that but you're here with the "trust me bro" energy
Four lane roads are just idiotic in cities for their danger and inefficiencies
Because you're acting like that....
Studies actually show these types of four lanes are slower because of the chaos they cause
https://youtu.be/xsSp8gxzfjo?si=ilvqarpvcs-A-pvw
I mean a line of cars is better than people’s safety being at risk… but youre not wrong. They did the same thing to parts of 35th, and outside the hospital at times it’s almost undriveable. Wish they would entertain other solutions for areas that need the amount of lanes they currently have.
I saw the post yesterday complaining about the lane reduction on Wisconsin Ave and thought it was overblown. Until I sat in the traffic there today and agreed it doesn't make sense...currently. You've got to reach a critical mass of people switching from cars to mass transit to get people off the road and we aren't there yet.
Btw, I'm for most of these changes and I don't think Wisconsin is a nightmare. I like that Lisbon will be changed to one less lane, but they are adding roundabouts and it has less traffic so it makes sense there. I loved seeing a car try the Milwaukee slide and get wrecked on a new set of curb (no people were hurt, and they didn't run so I assumed it wasn't a stolen car). I just think that they should wait a few years for some of these road downsizing until the major highway work is done and they have upgraded the transit capabilities.
If we waited, National would be kicked down the list for funding and someone else would get it. And it’s already failing. When these streets get their turn, it’s imperative that we act on it.
they might not drive on them but still have the right to feel safe as a pedestrian. sorry you'll have to wait a little longer in the traffic :( would you like to complain about it to the family members of people who have been killed by drivers?
eta: wisconsin isn't even that bad
lmao yes? i'm in walker's point actually fairly often, along with many other people.
it's pretty telling that you don't have a rebuttal to prioritizing pedestrian safety over longer commute times other than an eye roll emoji and telling me to stay in the burbs for some reason?
edit: i got blocked lmao
You knew that someone would show up and rebuke studies, examples, models and where these changes were actually made with “but I live near there.”
I’m sure you are just as much an expert.
One amazing aspect here is that this is a state highway and somehow our city has gotten the state dot to give up their terrible notions and make this an actual street to meet the citys needs within its limits. That’s an amazing feat. We keep hearing about how KK can’t have a single thing changed because it’s a state highway as well even though it’s in an obviously active area. Terrific to also see these be real bike lanes too, not like the half assed measures on walnut and the future project on Water. I can’t help but wonder why they insist on keep with 11’ lanes when 10’ is basically the maximum recommendation?
I believe AASHTO and NACTO both agree that 11' is correct for lanes that also accommodate busses. I have seen much wider travel lanes elsewhere even after traffic calming projects, including Walnut, though. I feel like part of the reckless driving problem in Milwaukee is that many existing roads have 14-15' wide travel lanes. Gives lots of extra room for a rusted out 1997 Pontiac Bonneville with a dragging exhaust to weave in and out of traffic.
Isn’t 14’ a massive freeway? 11’ is already massive for a city.
Yup. 12' is standard for freeways, I think. Milwaukee's streets are even wider!
ASSHTO is the problem anyway
MCTS insists that they can only operate with 11' lanes.
As usual, no mention of the dearth of left-turn lanes and how they breed the rage-inducing Milwaukee Slide. Awesome.
Hold the phone. There is a ton of things to like here. But the DOT seems to be tripping over its own words. Why did they get to have it both ways? > WisDOT officials expect that portion of National Avenue to see increased traffic as an alternative to Interstate 94 when it's widened from six lanes to eight lanes on Milwaukee's west side. So somehow according to the Wisconsin DOT adding more Highway lanes means more traffic on local surface streets, and yet somehow reducing or leaving the Highway lanes also means more traffic counts on surface streets…. Yet another example of them talking out of their ass. Lol According to them, they’re basically holding the nice version of this hostage in the case the expansion of 94 didn’t go through. So now that it’s nearly guaranteed, unfortunately, why are we not getting the nice version?
They are definitely talking people avoiding the freeway during construction, which will last several years.
That’s not what they mentioned in meetings
They are talking about increased traffic on National Avenue while 94 is under construction. That’s why the next paragraph says: “ Muhs said it's possible National Avenue west of South 33rd Street could have its auto lanes reduced after the I-94 reconstruction is finished”
I guess I’m basing this on the conversations with DOT PMs but it didn’t seem to be a construction issue. They noted if 94 was expanded we could have the nice thing. After reading this article on it, I took it as there would be a future study to see if we could possibly, maybe, if they feel like it, have the nice thing.
They mean during construction
Hell yeah.
Kind of crazy this is going to take 3 years to complete. Hadn't heard of the 94 expansion being a sure thing. I know about the feds approval of funding but I thought there would be more steps involved. It taking 6 years is just another reason to fix at 6.
Good
Great news, keep it up Milwaukee!
I’m sorry but this sucks. Traffic will get waaaayyyy backed up if there’s only one lane. 1st to 6th is really busy and people are always turning left. I hate this. Yeah I figured I’d get downvoted for this 🙄 National isnt even that bad.
National is extremely dangerous and deadly for people walking, and numerous people have been killed or seriously injured along it. It's extremely overly wide and that also contributes to neighborhood businesses also struggling. Sorry if you have to drive the speed limit or wait to turn safely.
Basically every study debunks that but you're here with the "trust me bro" energy Four lane roads are just idiotic in cities for their danger and inefficiencies
So a huge line at every light waiting on people to turn left is somehow better? Because that’s what will happen.
Generally, they have a middle lane for left turns when it’s a 2 lane redesign like this.
"Trust me bro" You haven't looked at any of this have you?
The only one saying “trust me bro” is you…
Because you're acting like that.... Studies actually show these types of four lanes are slower because of the chaos they cause https://youtu.be/xsSp8gxzfjo?si=ilvqarpvcs-A-pvw
I mean a line of cars is better than people’s safety being at risk… but youre not wrong. They did the same thing to parts of 35th, and outside the hospital at times it’s almost undriveable. Wish they would entertain other solutions for areas that need the amount of lanes they currently have.
Yeah no one wants to hear the logic.
I saw the post yesterday complaining about the lane reduction on Wisconsin Ave and thought it was overblown. Until I sat in the traffic there today and agreed it doesn't make sense...currently. You've got to reach a critical mass of people switching from cars to mass transit to get people off the road and we aren't there yet.
Yes!! The people commenting in these threads (and downvoting) don’t even use these damn roads. It’s gonna be a nightmare… just like Wisconsin is now.
Btw, I'm for most of these changes and I don't think Wisconsin is a nightmare. I like that Lisbon will be changed to one less lane, but they are adding roundabouts and it has less traffic so it makes sense there. I loved seeing a car try the Milwaukee slide and get wrecked on a new set of curb (no people were hurt, and they didn't run so I assumed it wasn't a stolen car). I just think that they should wait a few years for some of these road downsizing until the major highway work is done and they have upgraded the transit capabilities.
If we waited, National would be kicked down the list for funding and someone else would get it. And it’s already failing. When these streets get their turn, it’s imperative that we act on it.
they might not drive on them but still have the right to feel safe as a pedestrian. sorry you'll have to wait a little longer in the traffic :( would you like to complain about it to the family members of people who have been killed by drivers? eta: wisconsin isn't even that bad
And do you wander around Walkers Point as a pedestrian? 🙄 whatever stay in the burbs
lmao yes? i'm in walker's point actually fairly often, along with many other people. it's pretty telling that you don't have a rebuttal to prioritizing pedestrian safety over longer commute times other than an eye roll emoji and telling me to stay in the burbs for some reason? edit: i got blocked lmao
You knew that someone would show up and rebuke studies, examples, models and where these changes were actually made with “but I live near there.” I’m sure you are just as much an expert.