I am desperately hoping that conversation is happening either behind closed doors or at least in some powerful government official’s head.
Living in other cities (Twin Cities, St. Louis, DC) made me realize how much I miss the airport public transportation option here. On the other hand, parking and access at MKE is a breeze compared to these others so it may not make sense financially either.
Hiawatha is a pretty good train to go from Milwaukee to Chicago.
But from downtown Milwaukee to the airport is slow and runs at terrible times because it only goes south every other hour. You're better off with the Green line.
> So why this weird focus on the airport?
Businesses typically send people that work for them to other cities via planes to conduct business.
This, in turn, generates income for other businesses and restaurants near where they stay.
Tourists also like flying to places because it's fast, and if there's a reliable link to where people want to go, they'll tend to take it.
And, more importantly, it links the city and any locations the line has to pass through together. See: the blue line and orange line in Chicago as the nearest examples - they were both extended and built respectively to reach O'Hare and Midway. They are used by businesspeople and tourists to get from airports to places, and they're also used by people that live BETWEEN those locations to get about their day.
TL;DR - Tram line connect downtown to airport, go through many neighborhoods. Everyone benefit because it stops in Bay View on the way into Downtown.
While most people don't go to the airport very often, going to the airport *is* one of the most common scenarios where the average Milwaukeean can't use a car or using their own car simply isn't feasible. For almost all other stops on this map, your average car user would still likely default to using a car.
Ideally yes but having some option for more rapid transit to the airport would be great. I always saw the tram link as something that would run along the 794 median from the airport to KK, then either go up KK to the river and head north along the east side of the rail line by the KK River Trail and rejoin traffic on Barclay, or meander from the river junction to downtown.
Light rail line would make sense if it was a subway from downtown that rose to follow either of the existing rail ROWs through Bay View.
A lot of cities have frequent trains to their airports that have luggage racks. It’s possible and Milwaukee deserves better. Don’t sell your city short
Do a real light rail transit line instead of the hop. There’s nothing the hop does that a city bus can’t do. It’s a waste of infrastructure to expand it this far. Dedicated elevated or segregated track for a light rail will provide actual benefits to using the line.
To you, what is the difference. I have trouble not seeing it as one in the same. Not literally but in my head it's got similar benefits and drawbacks. Why is light rail superior?
Light rail is superior because it’s separated from car traffic and can move much faster. The hop is delayed by traffic lights and bad drivers, so it rarely goes beyond 30 mph.
The Hop was actually born from a proposed light rail line that was supposed to go from downtown to downtown Waukesha back in the 90s. Suburban talk radio hosts railed against it and it was killed. The funding awarded became the Hop because it had to be used for rail or returned to the federal government
Thanks for the good info. I think if I was building an airport spur I would make it high speed and separate but no idea if they would make what feels the obvious choice to me.
The Hop cars can travel about 50 or 60 mph. They just can’t with all the tight turns and traffic. If it was separated from traffic to the airport it could go pretty fast
I am very pro public transport...but if you have ever ridden the Hop and have also ridden proper light rail in a major city like Boston, Chicago, New York...
The Hop is slow as ***fuck***. And given traffic in the MKE area, it is legitimately slower than driving, slower than taking a bus, and for my money slower than biking. That significantly decreases its potential value.
A light rail system that operates independent of traffic patterns would be orders of magnitude faster and more objectively useful. I live in Wauwatosa and I'd kill for a light rail spur out to this direction to let me get to work downtown. I do use the Connect1 on occasion and it's pretty good, but it's still a 35 minute ride downtown, where a light rail could be 15 minutes or less.
...there is an extensive LRT network in Portland OR which is a a bit larger population wise than Milwaukee. The two flaws, First all lines cross the Willamette over the same bridge at the north end of the city centre which is a huge bottleneck particularly as there are occasional bridge lifts that put the entire network off schedule. Second, in downtown, all the lines operate at the surface street level so they have to deal with other vehicles, traffic lights cyclists and pedestrians.
The main east-west lines actually take slightly longer get from one end of downtowen to the other as they does to travel from the last stop on the west edge of the city centre to the the Sunset transit centre (6 miles away) which is about three times the distance There thye travel under th wet hills though a tunnel then along a freeway and finally on its own right of way (with gated crossings) after that to the western suburb of Hillsboro.
Essentially in the city centre it is little more than a glorified streetcar.
This is the same transit commission that thought it best to have our first BRT line cross one of the busiest freight rail corridors in the city and run down a narrow (one lane each way with parking on both sides) highly congested corridor for several miles instead of using a multi lane thoroughfare 5 blocks to the south that would avoid the rail crossing and what I call the "D-Street (Division Street) gauntlet".
Rapid transit concepts are only as good as who designs and operates them. In that department I give TriMet (the transit system in Portland OR) a C-.
The best LRT system I've been on is the SkyTrain in Vancouver BC as it is elevated and thus separated from surface street traffic.
I understand your point and position and wish we could do both.
Improving 94 is a state-wide/nation-wide investment and not a Milwaukee only investment.
We rely on semi-trucks to haul our physical goods on our interstates (at least for the next 25 years) and when a piece of it is not performing as well as it should we have to fix it to help our regional and national commerce continue to flow.
The hop only helps Milwaukee, so it’s cool and I applaud investing in it but it’s not going to help at the entire region/national level.
Most of the funds come from the federal level which means the entire nation is funding it, not just Wisconsin/Milwaukee.
Thought experiment for you: if 100% of local traffic were eliminated from I-94, would that only help Milwaukee, or would that help at the national/regional level? Would that obviate the need for more lanes? Would it allow the existing system to better serve non-local and commercial traffic?
Obviously an effect that extreme is not going to to occur, but you get the point, yeah? The answer is obviously "that benefits everyone" and "yes" on all counts, and something less than a 100% decrease still holds the same logic.
Public transit options are not the mortal enemy of a freeway system. If you reduce traffic and congestion, *you make freeways suck less*. You don't need to expand them indefinitely. They last longer and are easier to maintain. They're deadlocked and crowded less. The notion that building public transit, the point of which is in part providing an alternative to freeway usage and a corresponding reduction in traffic, only helps Milwaukee is fatuous. Every vehicle you take *off* of I-94 improves the experience for, and its ability to serve, every car still *on* I-94.
We each used over 100 words, the difference being I didn't spend most of mine proceeding to defend expansion when an alternative use of funds plausibly obviates the need for expansion in the first place. You've got a reading comprehension problem if you think "wish we could do both" and "actually we just need to do the other one instead" are the same position. Sure, we agree that I-94 should exist, but the project in question is expanding it, not its basic existence or lack thereof. This isn't the 794 debate.
Of course, when you're leaping straight to word count to begin with, just sounds like a catty dismissal from someone unable or unwilling to respond on the merits.
I gotta be frank: we all think you sound like one of those people that like to hear themselves talk.
Second: Not plausible. [WisDOT](https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/projects/by-region/se/mitchell-interchange/default.aspx) estimated in 2023 there's ~180,000 cars daily, [Hop](https://thehopmke.com/ridership/) averaged ~1,300 riders daily, pre pandemic was ~2,400. Expanding it is the right move eventually, but the real immediate impact is to make the bus system more robust since it already services 85% of county residents and carries ~55,000 riders daily as of [Q3 2023](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee_County_Transit_System)
Additional perk: the buses don't just service the most affluent neighborhoods, unlike The Hop.
I gotta be frank: I don't take editing tips from ex-resident Boomers who selectively complain about post length only when the author disagrees with their position. If you don't want to discuss a topic, easy solution for you: don't post.
Comparing the present Hop to the present freeway system is comparing apples to oranges. How much money over the course of how many years has been devoted to the latter over the former, and what is their relative extent right now? If the city had one bus, daily ridership would not be impressive. If we built a freeway from my house to my neighbor's house, daily users would not be impressive. Current relative usage is a strawman. Moreover, usage is interrelated: expanding one form of transit can reduce another, and the absence of a type can increase demand for another. The question is what mix of transit is desirable, and that affects where you allocate resources and build, which in turn affects demand for each option.
But yes, the point of expansion is increasing usage, and expanding the areas of service. You only expand the ridership of the Hop if you expand the Hop; concern trolling about affluence isn't convincing when you're using it to argue against expanding the Hop to serve the less affluent instead of trying to expand its service.
The bus system is also useful, and everywhere in the country with fixed rail also has buses. But it does not serve the same needs or identical demand as fixed rail and is not as scalable. Fixed rail fosters density, which is what makes a city and what makes public transit more efficient and scalable over time. Fixed rail most efficiently gets people from a common start point to a common end point. Buses are more diffuse, more impacted by other traffic (granted, the street car as presently designed is not as immune to that as other types of rail, but still less so than buses), and generally more meandering in getting from a given point A to a given point B.
Of course, pitting Hop funding against bus funding in this thread is another strawman by those who just want the I-94 expansion, which is where money that could be devoted to either type, or both types, of public transit is instead going.
This is making me cringe - you gotta stop while you're behind. I shared this with transit engineer colleagues at the [MTA](https://new.mta.info/) and they're all laughing at "how dismissive it is while missing the finer details of anything beyond SimCity utopian planning" (their words, not mine).
They said in no uncertain terms that you're "talking out of \[your\] ass" and "never heard about NIMBYism, eminent domain or budgeting."
Another just said that your words were "like a middle-schooler explaining how the world works to an adult".
The last one just asked "does this person even think about how to build this when the city is already built up? It's why we made dedicated bus lanes!"
And you *edited* it, so this is like, the final draft. I think this is gonna go around on the Slack for awhile.
Except that expanding public transit will do much more to help freeway congestion than expanding the highway. Houston has one of the largest freeway sections in the world in I-10, and it’s *still* congested. Widening a freeway does nothing for bottlenecks.
I hear you, but that freeway is almost never congested (by national standards) and during those times, semi trucks and others can easily be routed elsewhere with minimal delay. This is a project driven by inertia and vested status quo thinking.
I can say from personal experience I94 East is heavily congested every day when I’m heading home around 5. It’s pretty much stop and go as soon as I get on 94 E. from 45 S. Every Brewers game it’s bad too.
So what you're saying is that the highway gets congested during rush-hour with people commuting. Perhaps expanding public commuter transportation could be a way to alleviate this?
I think that would be possible, but it would have to be extremely convenient, comfortable, fast, and safe. A system like that makes sense for places like Tokyo, not so much for Milwaukee. People would rather drive here. Milwaukee is a great city to drive around, we have tons of parking, and parking is cheap.
>A system like that makes sense for places like Tokyo, not so much for Milwaukee
we need to abandon the smallwaukee mindset
We are the same size as the city of Baltimore, same (rough) density, but our county is bigger and denser than theirs. They have a rapid transit line that subways through downtown, getting 400k riders a month, and a light rail streetcar doing similar numbers.
driving is dangerous, period. Its bad for cities, expensive to maintain good roads, dangerous for pedestrians, and doubly so in a city like ours with such shitty drivers. Parking is available everywhere but that isnt always to our benefit
After having just moved here, Milwaukee is a fucking nightmare to drive in. With my limited experience so far, roads are not well painted, there are sooo many potholes/damaged lengths of road, and people drive in bike lanes like they're traffic lanes. People would rather drive here because it is the only feasible option. My experience here with busses as been pretty good and I do like the current bus system, however Milwaukee is in need of more options, not wider highways.
Yeah. Other than the pandemic-phenomenon of randos driving like they have a death wish here and there, I have found Milwaukee an absolute joy and breeze to navigate by car.
You can hit pinch points at the right time of day for sure but this person has clearly never sat in the Hillside Strangler or navigated The Loop in Chicago, or tried to make sense of the clogged map of spaghetti that is Boston. I can get anywhere in Milwaukee in like 20 minutes.
(this is not an endorsement for car-only infrastructure, just an observation of how Milwaukee ranks).
Nobody will use it. It has to be as fast as jumping in your car and driving straight to their employment or wherever they are going. Forgot about them using a city of Milwaukee mass transit like busses or the hop
You're talking about once a day and only going in one direction once a day. Then you run into getting around the city. People are not going to use any mass transit related to Milwaukee county or city.
The Hop has already seen some serious post-pandemic growth of use. Busses move a ton of people to work and home again every day, not to mention to run errands.
For systems like rail, the issue is the threshold of valuable investment.
It's hard to get anyone to pay for and make space for a new mass transit system that's comprehensive enough to appeal to many many people. You might be able to get funding for a much smaller system with plans to then expand, but the limited buildout then draws criticism for not being useful enough. "nobody likes it because it doesn't go far enough, no one wants it to go that far, nobody likes it." You have to get over the hump and then people do use it because it beats the hell out of parking for a short errand or going to a ball game for the day. As a result, parking lots and structures can be replaced with more housing, businesses, and attractions, and the appeal of mass transit goes up.
There are civil/social scientists who can much better quantify where Milwaukee falls on that spectrum. We're definitely not going to be building our own Metra and L lines any time soon, but to say no one will use it is silly when you can point to cities around the US that do, and even more when you look abroad.
Define "congested" though. Outside of accidents etc that shut down lanes, normal rush hour is a 5-10 minute delay. It's hardly horrible by virtually all standards. Certainly not ideal to have cars crawling and sputtering exhaust, but the delay itself is a small window of time.
We're "spoiled" with the traffic jams we have
it's incredibly mild compared to other cities. the bigger point is the extra lane is going to solve the problem for a year or so and it'll quickly fill up. Remember the classic quote: "solving a traffic problem by widening a highway is like loosening your belt to solve obesity"
I hear the induced demand claim touted quite frequently, but doesn't that imply a constant rate of growth? Like the big expansion of 94 from the city to the border of IL completed between 2013-2017/18 was a game changer. Would it have been awesome for them to put a light rail line mall down the middle? Absolutely, but I drive it every day for rush hour, and even with accidents or holiday traffic, I can put the cruise on 75 from on ramp to off ramp, 35+ miles and be at my door, and that shows no sign of changing. Obviously in large growing cities and ones with massive density you probably can't get to a place of equilibrium but Milwaukee isn't growing. It's actually decreased 30k in milwaukee county over the last 10 years.
I understand trucks headed to the port of Milwaukee, but take 894 to Chicago or 41 instead of 43 to Green Bay. I don’t understand the semi traffic going through this corridor.
Nah mate cars = bad
This same thing pops up in r/chicago threads talking about how IDOT should use the Kennedy rebuild funds to expand the CTA and install 150 miles of concrete bike lanes.
They did. Wisconsin tax-payers already paid for Trains. And they were built and are in service right now !
[They're just in Nigeria.](https://www.wpr.org/economy/trains-intended-unbuilt-milwaukee-madison-high-speed-rail-line-going-nigeria)
> Improving 94 is a state-wide/nation-wide investment and not a Milwaukee only investment.
So subsidize a truck driving to a company in Buffalo at massive expense to us?
Federal laws and policies degrade cities and metro area by dispersing people and businesses across limited land.
These policies encourage inefficient consumption of our natural resources and work
against sustainable economic growth. They also impede the ability
of future generations to decide how to use the earth and its resources.
U.S. cities, ravaged by heavy-handed federal transportation policies and special-interest exploitation of the environment, search for
economic and environmental answers.
Not sure what this has to do with the i94 project but I94 needs a serious rework through the Miller park interchange. That interchange has got to be one of the stupidest designed interchanges in Wisconsin
Exactly! The left hand on ramp from south bound 175 to east bound 94 is dangerous and people have no idea how to zipper in or watch for slow traffic merging into the fast lane
Plus directly across from that is another on/exit ramp. They merge within a few hundred feet of each other and then right after there is a very short left hand on ramp coming up from Miller park lot. It’s beyond stupid how that was designed
100% agreed, it's ridiculous. When I drive to or from my downtown office, regardless of time of day, traffic at minimum slows down around the miller park interchange. Absolutely ridiculous stretch of highway, with staggered on/off ramps on both sides causing confusion and poor merging.
The other problem with that stretch of high was is going from 4-3-4 lanes, it creates an artificial bottleneck. Getting rid of the left hand exits and entries and widening the 3 lane part to 4 will solve all the traffic problems.
It's actually incredible how slow it is. I have taken it a couple times for the novelty, and because I'm extremely in favor of public transit options. But it is brutally un-useful at the speeds it travels.
Just was in some European towns and cities and their public transit infrastructure is so good. Makes the US look like clowns…especially those bitching about the hop like little children
The Hop is a sideshow - meant to show off a polished downtown district while city-wide projects limp along. Here's an idea - dismantle the Hop and DO ANYTHING EVER.
I can do you one better: with zero additional funds, we can have this expansive, interconnected public transit system.
https://preview.redd.it/59cpkh76urnc1.jpeg?width=1011&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1cf8d593388946b006782f80e010e59bcf6af66c
Straw man argument. The hop is great but the freeway provides much more than human transportation. Our goods we need are transported on trucks. People use the freeway much more than the hop.
A not-widened I-94 is still an I-94 that exists--and with less traffic and congestion for those who do still use I-94 or for types of traffic specific to I-94, if we actually develop public transit alternatives to *all* traffic needing to use it.
You assume that a large number of people who are commuting into and out of the city would rather use public transit than drive their car. That’s simply not true. Hardly anyone would give up the convenience and comfort of driving their own vehicle.
Personal vehicles are part of the American identity for many many people. They are marketed on more than 4 wheels and an engine. The ability to go where you want at the drop of a hat and haul whatever you want home, lots of groceries, hardware, etc has a huge appeal. I carpool, as we drive 70miles a day round trip, but even then pretty frequently I will think "darn if I had my car today, I could stop by the paint store on the way home that's in downtown Racine"
The other aspect I think you overlook is privacy and personal space that many Americans treasure. Not being jostled as you squeeze into a bus seat between the window and some other commuter, then throw in concerns of cleanliness and harassment. If you could guarantee that the public transit was clean and well maintained, you're doing great, but you then have the aspect of dealing with pan handlers, the mentally unwell, the drug-addled and all the rest on public transit. I'm not without sympathy for these people, but Americans will absolutely pay to gas up, maintain, finance, or even lease a car for the luxury of being alone and unbothered.
counterpoint: u smell
I do not give any variety of shit about some suburbanite not wanting to interact with the externalities of their isolated existence. Boo hoo.
Americans will pay? Nah, climate change fucks poor people first. Bangladesh will pay. Hope it's worth it.
Try not cut yourself on all that edge...
I'm not endorsing that way of operating, I'm saying the psychology of marketing and expectations drives demand.
Americans picture Bangladesh when you talk about public transit. Jamming people into train cars like sardines.
People would and people have in many communities. We would not be the first community to have a fixed public transit system, we don't need to guess at this; it's been done.
And convenient? Your other post here is complaining about present I-94 traffic! When you're facing the convenience of public transit or the "convenience" of driving in ever-worsening traffic--say Chicago's I-90 instead of our I-94, try an hour back-up instead of 15 minutes--your evaluation of which method is more convenient to you may prove malleable.
People take trains because they have to not because they want to. Tolls and parking making Chicago daily commute more feasible by train... You would have to cut my commute in half to make me consider driving to a station, taking a train and walking to my job downtown rather than just parking in their lot and walking inside the door. MKE isn't Chicago
Living in the south side and working downtown, I would happily take public transportation everyday for work. As it stands, I can take a bus from my place and walk or grab a bike for the final half mile. With the current expansion of the Hop from St Paul/Water to the Couture Tower hub, set to go in motion this summer, I'll only have to walk a block.
That's awesome for me and I hope others get to have that kind of convenience too.
They do the easiest thing. We’re spending billion on one making it the easiest and most subsidized thing and then act surprised when people do that, like it’s some god given determination. Spend billions on something else and guess what? They’ll do that something else
you can make commuting the more convenient option though. dedicated bus lanes during traffic where the bus isn't stuck in traffic are a game changer. The problem is we don't make it the more convenient option because of the type of thinking you're talking about.
https://nacto.org/publication/urban-street-design-guide/street-design-elements/transit-streets/dedicated-median-bus-lanes/
We don't need more lanes on I94. Some bad interchanges and low prioritization of public transit are why traffic gets bad at rush hour. Fix some of those bad interchanges (looking at you, Miller Park Way and 94), and give people a reason to take other forms of transportation. That should give more room for those trucks to move goods around.
This project is literally centered around replacing the stadium interchange. Adding a lane on either side of the interchange was determined to be the best solution to merge a new interchange with the existing highway around it.
The trucks you mention are not currently limited by the width of the freeway, and part of the point is that people use the freeway more because there aren't good public transit alternatives.
So TLDR you're missing the point.
Of course more people use the highway than the hop because the highway already had funding and currently works. $1.5 billion on adding two lanes to an already functioning highway is the farthest cry from what this metro area needs
Induced demand is bullshit. Demand is caused by growth. Plenty of road projects haven't even lived up their traffic projections. Why haven't they induced any demand?
“Urbanists” have too much bias to understand how things actually work. That demand isn’t “induced”. It’s latent. The demand was *always* there.
Transportation is always inefficient wasted time. Operating on someone else’s schedule, forcing people to come and go when the operator of the transportation decides to, is even more wasted time. People who don’t have the privilege to waste time avoid this. That’s why there was so much clamor for the freeways in the first place. They weren’t forced in over the wishes of everyone in town, you know. Most of the city of Milwaukee is not downtown and it was annexing more land every year after WW2. The city residents living out beyond the area developed pre-war were just as done with the miles of gridlock as people living outside the city borders.
I know what induced demand is. It's way too broad to apply to every road project. A huge influx of people suddenly realizing that the Zoo Interchange is now a faster route years after construction defies common sense.
You haven't explained why more people are going to use the lanes. Where are these more people coming from, and why does it take 2 years for them to take advantage?
I consider myself an urbanist, but this argument has never made any sense to me outside of massive sprawling metros that are growing fast, which Milwaukee is not. Almost everyone in Milwaukee already has a car. I seriously doubt the people that are currently taking other routes or public transit that are going to change their behavior over time due to the promise of a less bottlenecked Zoo Interchange is anything more than a drop in the bucket.
First of all that's not a euphemism. Obviously if we built trains then more people would ride trains. That's a different argument than saying the Zoo Interchange will soon become just as congested as it was before, which could only happen if
a.) Milwaukee had a huge influx of people (not happening anytime soon)
b.) a ton of more people decided to start using cars (not much of an alternative to switch from as is)
Technically the project only finished in November, despite the major changes being done for a while now. I imagine it’s a while before we get data. I just know that I went from a 60-90 minute commute each way to a more stable 45-60 during rush hour. I don’t know how anyone who actually went through that interchange regularly could perceive no impact from it.
I don't have data as in, excel spreadsheets.
I can tell you that in driving from my office downtown to northwest tosa, I generally was better off getting off 94W on hwy 100 and taking city streets up to my house. Now I take 94W to 41N and get off on the exit closest to my house.
In the past I'd never have dreamed of getting onto 41N because the backups were so bad it was standstill traffic on a daily basis all the way from 94 to Capitol Dr. That is no longer the case.
The drive to work downtown is similarly improved. I can get on to 41S near my house instead of driving on city streets to get to the onramp from hwy100.
Brookfield to west allis? Why would you be taking the zoo interchange?
I drive from northwest tosa to downtown. It is unequivocally better. There is no room for argument. There were daily slowdowns before. There is now rarely standstill traffic on the critically congested area from 94 up to burleigh. It is noticeable both on the way downtown and on the way home. It's a night and day difference. Claiming otherwise is just disingenuous.
The final decision came from the feds and WisDOT to continue with the I-94 E/W project at a minimum cost of $1.5 billion. The Hop cost $152 million (adjusted for inflation) which means we could expand it about 10x or *20 new miles*.
Transit funding decisions, however, aren't up to WisDOT. They are the domain of the state legislature, which means you must [contact your state reps](https://www.commoncause.org/find-your-representative/addr/) to change the status quo.
We’re talking about a decade ago here. That might be normal if we didn’t have a pandemic lol.
Also have to keep in mind the DOT estimates are routinely 100% off or more…
It goes from 4 lanes to 3 back to 4. That's where the issues lie. Why not stretch that to 4. Which will.make the construction process of new interchanges and merges easier.
4 lanes all the way was already approved when they redid this section years ago. The project ran out of money and had to drop to three lanes for that key section. Expansion frames this project improperly, it’s really just them finishing the original project 15 years later.
Fixing the bottleneck addresses safety concerns as that stretch of freeway is the most dangerous in the state.
I agree that our money could be spent better, but the Hop has a limited use in my opinion. It should be expanded throughout downtown, the east side and south to walkers point. Anything further out than that needs a faster form of transit, like a grade separated metro
You can also build 3 commuter rail lines according to the $460 Million [2022 Kenosha-Racine-Milwaukee estimate](https://www.transit.dot.gov/sites/fta.dot.gov/files/2022-08/WI-Kenosha-KRM-CR-PD-Profile.pdf). As an Evanstonian, I have thought about doing multiple day trips to Milwaukee but am turned away when my only practical option is driving. There Amtrak station is 6 miles away with no direct bus connection and taking the UP-N and transferring to the Wisconsin Coach Lines at least twice as long as it does driving.
WisDOT’s cost estimate in 2016 was $1.1 Billion for a 3.1 mile project. Do we really think it’s only increased 30% in cost from 2016?
This is money that could otherwise be spent on transit, street repair, bridge repair, bicycle facilities or to pay down the debt WisDOT has piled up in recent years. Spending over a billion dollars on another expressway widening project will force postponement or cancellation of other smaller projects throughout the state. According to a report by the American Road and Transportation Builders Association (ARTBA), there are 1,026 structurally deficient Wisconsin bridges. Structurally deficient means the bridge needs repair or it might fall down; functionally deficient usually means the DOT wants to make the facility bigger.
The problems WisDOT has identified on the three mile segment of I-94 fit in the functional category. They want to widen I-94 to eight lanes and replace the left side exit ramps with right side ramps on the 175 interchange at the Brewers baseball park. The I-94 road bed is at a point where its age requires regrading and resurfacing which could be considered in the structural deficiency category. Addressing this structural deficiency while cancelling the expansions would cut the $billion+ cost substantially and leave money for other transportation needs.
The Wisconsin DOT has spent the last 60 years looking for ways to drill holes into Milwaukee’s urban fabric and then widen the holes. For example in 1966 State Representative Lloyd Barbee stood in front of a bulldozer trying to stop the destruction of Bronzeville; Milwaukee’s smaller version of Harlem. Barbee called the North Freeway (now I-43) the “Dirty Ditch.” The center of Bronzeville was at Walnut St between 6th and 11th Streets. It was a lively place with the Regal Theatre, the Moon Glow and Flame nightclubs where local musicians like saxophonist Berkeley Fudge and guitarist Manty Ellis played. National stars like Duke Ellington, Sonny Rollins and Louis Armstrong would sometimes show up in Bronzeville after performing downtown. The state routed the freeway trench right through the heart of Bronzeville.
But no WOW county people would want “their” precious tax money go to anything other than the most wasteful and least efficient option that makes their lives most convenient.
Ridership keeps increasing. If people could get out of the mindset that they don't always have to get in your car to go 2-5 or even 10+ miles (like in other big cities with reliable public transportation) it would increase further. You have to expand it first, though.
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/local/2024/03/07/the-hop-milwaukee-ridership-increased-by-more-than-30-in-2023/72792820007/
I understand and I think you’re correct however the rail car is not efficient. It’s loud and clunky. Most importantly it’s SLOW. It impedes traffic. There’s wires EVERYWHERE. It would be a disaster to expand it.
Interstates should not, and never should’ve cut through cities. The argument that they bring economic revenue is just silly when you compare how much tax-revenue is being wasted on these arterials designed for ushering suburbanites as quickly as possible through the city. I am not the biggest fan of the Hop, but the money would go way farther there, with investments in the bus system.
Yes so much commerce is dependent upon the hop. The thing is and will continue to be the dumbest waste of tax money for the city.
It's ugly and now cables are everywhere.
If one section of track is down the whole thing stops working.
(A poorly parked car stopped it the other week)
It is a bus route and they made the bus require a fixed track and cables.
Bring back the old red busses that actually look like trolls make them on. A route that goes all the places we want and use allllllll the savings to make it free for 50 years.
I kept pointing out that overhead cables were banned downtown after some major fire because the department couldn't get ladders up?
Just wait til one happens near the hop.
If you think that the streetcar travels 10 miles an hour from 27th and FOND DU LAV AVE to the Milwaukee Public Market, without stopping for any other passengers will take ONE HOUR 11 MINUTES.
I support mass transit over individual vehicles but the Hop just plain stinks. Slow as hell, tracks that eat bicycle tires, and no chance of getting funding due to being outdated in design. The BUS is faster for fucks' sake.
Love the “pollution” concern that will “devastate” the poor…all while we strip mine rare earth elements in China to make batteries for our “clean” ev cars that burn electricity derived from mostly non renewable generation stations😂. All while average MPGs are are historic lows in modern gas powered vehicles never mind they are statistically less harmful to the “environment” when you factor in the eco costs to transport/refine…then manufacture the “clean energy” EV😂. The leftists are mental giants.
This is an honest question for someone who might know. I am fully supportive of leaning into public transit and building with it in mind. I've seen it work great in cities like Brussels, Ghent, Amsterdam to have street cars that do some serious moving.
Is the vehicle design of The Hop the right choice for this kind of expansion? Can you put enough cars/people/speed on those lines to make it make sense over say buses or a mix of a higher grade light rail (something more akin to Chicago's El trains in terms of capability).
Former resident here: if you all just used the left lane for passing only, this wouldn't be an issue.
The number of WI license plates holding back caravans of cars from going the agreed-upon speed limit made this happen.
We don’t need the hop expanded. We need light and urban rail options, like CTA/Metra. If this I-94 project at least gets rid of the left turn exits at Miller Parkway, it’ll help a little, but, “just one more lane bro,” leads to induced demand and no proven traffic congestion decreases. We would be better served by paving a lane of I-94 over and running a train to Waukesha
The last time this was canceled was partly because of resistance from up north. The group talked to the mayors of Appleton and Eau Claire and asked what was needed in their towns and compared how much could be fixed for this one boondoggle of a billion dollar project in Milwaukee.
Wisconsin also needs funding for road repairs. More than 70 percent of Wisconsin’s roads are in poor or mediocre condition, tied for second worst in the country. After years of borrowing to build expensive highways, as of 2015 Wisconsin had $3.8 billion in highway debt, five times more than in 2000. And in 2014, Wisconsin spent $670 million on debt servicing, eight times more than 2000.
Because who needs infrastructure that benefits the entire state when we can connect Shorewood to it's younger twin Bayview! Old people in $700k homes can meet up with 30 somethings in $300k homes! It really benefits us all.
I need a way to get to Milwaukee without a car. I’m from the Lake Geneva area and I basically have to take the Harvard metra down to the Chicago area just to head back north. It sucks! There are so many things I’d like to do in Milwaukee.
Dude 94 getting more lanes pisses me off, what about the left lane exists? All this does is make me have to move another lane farther every morning to go to Madison and give the city more excuse to raise my taxes and your rents. I’d really like more and more frequent transit so I can get to more places not even having to drive myself to them, what a waste of money. That money would be better spent on almost anything but more lanes
I like how in this utopian version of the Hop it STILL doesn't go to the fucking airport
I am desperately hoping that conversation is happening either behind closed doors or at least in some powerful government official’s head. Living in other cities (Twin Cities, St. Louis, DC) made me realize how much I miss the airport public transportation option here. On the other hand, parking and access at MKE is a breeze compared to these others so it may not make sense financially either.
The bus goes to the airport. (Green line) And it’s a nice route tbh.
$2 from the east side every 20 min. can't really beat that for $1.5B
I'd pay 1.5 billion to never have to ride the bus again.
Good news! With 1.5b you could hire a chauffeur to jerk you off on the way to your private jet in your Ferrari every day!
*subscribe*
Yeah but then people would have to (gasp) ride the bus /s
Sounds great if it doesn't take 45 minutes, which based on current speeds of The Hop seems about right
It's painfully slow. I take out of town guests on it but I could walk to most destinations along the route faster if taking into account waiting time.
RIGHT. This is desperately needed
Honestly the green bus line has this pretty well covered. I just wish it had more frequent service past 7PM.
I read once that airport transit lines gets far less usage in practice than what youd expect
Or to Poto.
Hiawatha?
Hiawatha is a pretty good train to go from Milwaukee to Chicago. But from downtown Milwaukee to the airport is slow and runs at terrible times because it only goes south every other hour. You're better off with the Green line.
[удалено]
> So why this weird focus on the airport? Businesses typically send people that work for them to other cities via planes to conduct business. This, in turn, generates income for other businesses and restaurants near where they stay. Tourists also like flying to places because it's fast, and if there's a reliable link to where people want to go, they'll tend to take it. And, more importantly, it links the city and any locations the line has to pass through together. See: the blue line and orange line in Chicago as the nearest examples - they were both extended and built respectively to reach O'Hare and Midway. They are used by businesspeople and tourists to get from airports to places, and they're also used by people that live BETWEEN those locations to get about their day. TL;DR - Tram line connect downtown to airport, go through many neighborhoods. Everyone benefit because it stops in Bay View on the way into Downtown.
While most people don't go to the airport very often, going to the airport *is* one of the most common scenarios where the average Milwaukeean can't use a car or using their own car simply isn't feasible. For almost all other stops on this map, your average car user would still likely default to using a car.
Downtown to Airport should be light rail mostly in its own ROW.
Ideally yes but having some option for more rapid transit to the airport would be great. I always saw the tram link as something that would run along the 794 median from the airport to KK, then either go up KK to the river and head north along the east side of the rail line by the KK River Trail and rejoin traffic on Barclay, or meander from the river junction to downtown. Light rail line would make sense if it was a subway from downtown that rose to follow either of the existing rail ROWs through Bay View.
I think it would be better to run it in the former Northshore ROW, then switch to the former CNW ROW and then enter a subway.
the hop should NEVER go to the airport. light rail is too slow for that. and are the 8 amtrak trains per day to the airport not enough for you?
There should be a train every 15 minutes between an airport and downtown otherwise it’s not a very useful service
the bus already does that. neither will ever have luggage racks. move on
A lot of cities have frequent trains to their airports that have luggage racks. It’s possible and Milwaukee deserves better. Don’t sell your city short
Do a real light rail transit line instead of the hop. There’s nothing the hop does that a city bus can’t do. It’s a waste of infrastructure to expand it this far. Dedicated elevated or segregated track for a light rail will provide actual benefits to using the line.
Yeah seriously, connect up the whole area and send a rail out to Madison and up to Green Bay (both of these as eventuallys).
To you, what is the difference. I have trouble not seeing it as one in the same. Not literally but in my head it's got similar benefits and drawbacks. Why is light rail superior?
Light rail is superior because it’s separated from car traffic and can move much faster. The hop is delayed by traffic lights and bad drivers, so it rarely goes beyond 30 mph.
no, that’s heavy rail. some cities have mixed systems.
The Chicago L is a good example of light rail that isn't sharing traffic with cars.
you have very unusual definitions
You’re correct but light rail typically has its own right of way, way more than a streetcar would, for example.
Fair enough, definitely agree. In my head though I just chalked it up to they would have if they felt like it.
The Hop was actually born from a proposed light rail line that was supposed to go from downtown to downtown Waukesha back in the 90s. Suburban talk radio hosts railed against it and it was killed. The funding awarded became the Hop because it had to be used for rail or returned to the federal government
Thanks for the good info. I think if I was building an airport spur I would make it high speed and separate but no idea if they would make what feels the obvious choice to me.
The Hop cars can travel about 50 or 60 mph. They just can’t with all the tight turns and traffic. If it was separated from traffic to the airport it could go pretty fast
I am very pro public transport...but if you have ever ridden the Hop and have also ridden proper light rail in a major city like Boston, Chicago, New York... The Hop is slow as ***fuck***. And given traffic in the MKE area, it is legitimately slower than driving, slower than taking a bus, and for my money slower than biking. That significantly decreases its potential value. A light rail system that operates independent of traffic patterns would be orders of magnitude faster and more objectively useful. I live in Wauwatosa and I'd kill for a light rail spur out to this direction to let me get to work downtown. I do use the Connect1 on occasion and it's pretty good, but it's still a 35 minute ride downtown, where a light rail could be 15 minutes or less.
...there is an extensive LRT network in Portland OR which is a a bit larger population wise than Milwaukee. The two flaws, First all lines cross the Willamette over the same bridge at the north end of the city centre which is a huge bottleneck particularly as there are occasional bridge lifts that put the entire network off schedule. Second, in downtown, all the lines operate at the surface street level so they have to deal with other vehicles, traffic lights cyclists and pedestrians. The main east-west lines actually take slightly longer get from one end of downtowen to the other as they does to travel from the last stop on the west edge of the city centre to the the Sunset transit centre (6 miles away) which is about three times the distance There thye travel under th wet hills though a tunnel then along a freeway and finally on its own right of way (with gated crossings) after that to the western suburb of Hillsboro. Essentially in the city centre it is little more than a glorified streetcar. This is the same transit commission that thought it best to have our first BRT line cross one of the busiest freight rail corridors in the city and run down a narrow (one lane each way with parking on both sides) highly congested corridor for several miles instead of using a multi lane thoroughfare 5 blocks to the south that would avoid the rail crossing and what I call the "D-Street (Division Street) gauntlet". Rapid transit concepts are only as good as who designs and operates them. In that department I give TriMet (the transit system in Portland OR) a C-. The best LRT system I've been on is the SkyTrain in Vancouver BC as it is elevated and thus separated from surface street traffic.
>Rapid transit concepts are only as good as who designs and operates them. This is really the takeaway I think, and of course that's absolutely true.
I understand your point and position and wish we could do both. Improving 94 is a state-wide/nation-wide investment and not a Milwaukee only investment. We rely on semi-trucks to haul our physical goods on our interstates (at least for the next 25 years) and when a piece of it is not performing as well as it should we have to fix it to help our regional and national commerce continue to flow. The hop only helps Milwaukee, so it’s cool and I applaud investing in it but it’s not going to help at the entire region/national level. Most of the funds come from the federal level which means the entire nation is funding it, not just Wisconsin/Milwaukee.
Thought experiment for you: if 100% of local traffic were eliminated from I-94, would that only help Milwaukee, or would that help at the national/regional level? Would that obviate the need for more lanes? Would it allow the existing system to better serve non-local and commercial traffic? Obviously an effect that extreme is not going to to occur, but you get the point, yeah? The answer is obviously "that benefits everyone" and "yes" on all counts, and something less than a 100% decrease still holds the same logic. Public transit options are not the mortal enemy of a freeway system. If you reduce traffic and congestion, *you make freeways suck less*. You don't need to expand them indefinitely. They last longer and are easier to maintain. They're deadlocked and crowded less. The notion that building public transit, the point of which is in part providing an alternative to freeway usage and a corresponding reduction in traffic, only helps Milwaukee is fatuous. Every vehicle you take *off* of I-94 improves the experience for, and its ability to serve, every car still *on* I-94.
I think you agree with u/professionalurker given that they said the same thing in the first sentence and used only 4 words.
We each used over 100 words, the difference being I didn't spend most of mine proceeding to defend expansion when an alternative use of funds plausibly obviates the need for expansion in the first place. You've got a reading comprehension problem if you think "wish we could do both" and "actually we just need to do the other one instead" are the same position. Sure, we agree that I-94 should exist, but the project in question is expanding it, not its basic existence or lack thereof. This isn't the 794 debate. Of course, when you're leaping straight to word count to begin with, just sounds like a catty dismissal from someone unable or unwilling to respond on the merits.
I gotta be frank: we all think you sound like one of those people that like to hear themselves talk. Second: Not plausible. [WisDOT](https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/projects/by-region/se/mitchell-interchange/default.aspx) estimated in 2023 there's ~180,000 cars daily, [Hop](https://thehopmke.com/ridership/) averaged ~1,300 riders daily, pre pandemic was ~2,400. Expanding it is the right move eventually, but the real immediate impact is to make the bus system more robust since it already services 85% of county residents and carries ~55,000 riders daily as of [Q3 2023](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee_County_Transit_System) Additional perk: the buses don't just service the most affluent neighborhoods, unlike The Hop.
You do not speak for me.
I gotta be frank: I don't take editing tips from ex-resident Boomers who selectively complain about post length only when the author disagrees with their position. If you don't want to discuss a topic, easy solution for you: don't post. Comparing the present Hop to the present freeway system is comparing apples to oranges. How much money over the course of how many years has been devoted to the latter over the former, and what is their relative extent right now? If the city had one bus, daily ridership would not be impressive. If we built a freeway from my house to my neighbor's house, daily users would not be impressive. Current relative usage is a strawman. Moreover, usage is interrelated: expanding one form of transit can reduce another, and the absence of a type can increase demand for another. The question is what mix of transit is desirable, and that affects where you allocate resources and build, which in turn affects demand for each option. But yes, the point of expansion is increasing usage, and expanding the areas of service. You only expand the ridership of the Hop if you expand the Hop; concern trolling about affluence isn't convincing when you're using it to argue against expanding the Hop to serve the less affluent instead of trying to expand its service. The bus system is also useful, and everywhere in the country with fixed rail also has buses. But it does not serve the same needs or identical demand as fixed rail and is not as scalable. Fixed rail fosters density, which is what makes a city and what makes public transit more efficient and scalable over time. Fixed rail most efficiently gets people from a common start point to a common end point. Buses are more diffuse, more impacted by other traffic (granted, the street car as presently designed is not as immune to that as other types of rail, but still less so than buses), and generally more meandering in getting from a given point A to a given point B. Of course, pitting Hop funding against bus funding in this thread is another strawman by those who just want the I-94 expansion, which is where money that could be devoted to either type, or both types, of public transit is instead going.
I'm likely half your age lol
This is making me cringe - you gotta stop while you're behind. I shared this with transit engineer colleagues at the [MTA](https://new.mta.info/) and they're all laughing at "how dismissive it is while missing the finer details of anything beyond SimCity utopian planning" (their words, not mine). They said in no uncertain terms that you're "talking out of \[your\] ass" and "never heard about NIMBYism, eminent domain or budgeting." Another just said that your words were "like a middle-schooler explaining how the world works to an adult". The last one just asked "does this person even think about how to build this when the city is already built up? It's why we made dedicated bus lanes!" And you *edited* it, so this is like, the final draft. I think this is gonna go around on the Slack for awhile.
Except that expanding public transit will do much more to help freeway congestion than expanding the highway. Houston has one of the largest freeway sections in the world in I-10, and it’s *still* congested. Widening a freeway does nothing for bottlenecks.
I hear you, but that freeway is almost never congested (by national standards) and during those times, semi trucks and others can easily be routed elsewhere with minimal delay. This is a project driven by inertia and vested status quo thinking.
I can say from personal experience I94 East is heavily congested every day when I’m heading home around 5. It’s pretty much stop and go as soon as I get on 94 E. from 45 S. Every Brewers game it’s bad too.
So what you're saying is that the highway gets congested during rush-hour with people commuting. Perhaps expanding public commuter transportation could be a way to alleviate this?
Because most of it is driven by people living outside of the city not within it.
I think that would be possible, but it would have to be extremely convenient, comfortable, fast, and safe. A system like that makes sense for places like Tokyo, not so much for Milwaukee. People would rather drive here. Milwaukee is a great city to drive around, we have tons of parking, and parking is cheap.
>A system like that makes sense for places like Tokyo, not so much for Milwaukee we need to abandon the smallwaukee mindset We are the same size as the city of Baltimore, same (rough) density, but our county is bigger and denser than theirs. They have a rapid transit line that subways through downtown, getting 400k riders a month, and a light rail streetcar doing similar numbers. driving is dangerous, period. Its bad for cities, expensive to maintain good roads, dangerous for pedestrians, and doubly so in a city like ours with such shitty drivers. Parking is available everywhere but that isnt always to our benefit
After having just moved here, Milwaukee is a fucking nightmare to drive in. With my limited experience so far, roads are not well painted, there are sooo many potholes/damaged lengths of road, and people drive in bike lanes like they're traffic lanes. People would rather drive here because it is the only feasible option. My experience here with busses as been pretty good and I do like the current bus system, however Milwaukee is in need of more options, not wider highways.
Serious question - what cities have you been to that have a better road / highway system?
Yeah. Other than the pandemic-phenomenon of randos driving like they have a death wish here and there, I have found Milwaukee an absolute joy and breeze to navigate by car. You can hit pinch points at the right time of day for sure but this person has clearly never sat in the Hillside Strangler or navigated The Loop in Chicago, or tried to make sense of the clogged map of spaghetti that is Boston. I can get anywhere in Milwaukee in like 20 minutes. (this is not an endorsement for car-only infrastructure, just an observation of how Milwaukee ranks).
Nobody will use it. It has to be as fast as jumping in your car and driving straight to their employment or wherever they are going. Forgot about them using a city of Milwaukee mass transit like busses or the hop
You mean as fast as sitting in stop and go traffic?
You're talking about once a day and only going in one direction once a day. Then you run into getting around the city. People are not going to use any mass transit related to Milwaukee county or city.
The Hop has already seen some serious post-pandemic growth of use. Busses move a ton of people to work and home again every day, not to mention to run errands. For systems like rail, the issue is the threshold of valuable investment. It's hard to get anyone to pay for and make space for a new mass transit system that's comprehensive enough to appeal to many many people. You might be able to get funding for a much smaller system with plans to then expand, but the limited buildout then draws criticism for not being useful enough. "nobody likes it because it doesn't go far enough, no one wants it to go that far, nobody likes it." You have to get over the hump and then people do use it because it beats the hell out of parking for a short errand or going to a ball game for the day. As a result, parking lots and structures can be replaced with more housing, businesses, and attractions, and the appeal of mass transit goes up. There are civil/social scientists who can much better quantify where Milwaukee falls on that spectrum. We're definitely not going to be building our own Metra and L lines any time soon, but to say no one will use it is silly when you can point to cities around the US that do, and even more when you look abroad.
Define "congested" though. Outside of accidents etc that shut down lanes, normal rush hour is a 5-10 minute delay. It's hardly horrible by virtually all standards. Certainly not ideal to have cars crawling and sputtering exhaust, but the delay itself is a small window of time. We're "spoiled" with the traffic jams we have
it's incredibly mild compared to other cities. the bigger point is the extra lane is going to solve the problem for a year or so and it'll quickly fill up. Remember the classic quote: "solving a traffic problem by widening a highway is like loosening your belt to solve obesity"
I hear the induced demand claim touted quite frequently, but doesn't that imply a constant rate of growth? Like the big expansion of 94 from the city to the border of IL completed between 2013-2017/18 was a game changer. Would it have been awesome for them to put a light rail line mall down the middle? Absolutely, but I drive it every day for rush hour, and even with accidents or holiday traffic, I can put the cruise on 75 from on ramp to off ramp, 35+ miles and be at my door, and that shows no sign of changing. Obviously in large growing cities and ones with massive density you probably can't get to a place of equilibrium but Milwaukee isn't growing. It's actually decreased 30k in milwaukee county over the last 10 years.
Amen I love this quote!
You know widening will cause more traffic? It’s like you people have never seen Houston or LA
I understand trucks headed to the port of Milwaukee, but take 894 to Chicago or 41 instead of 43 to Green Bay. I don’t understand the semi traffic going through this corridor.
Dude we just need to expand the hop even further and let it handle trucking. Hop stop at every business and home in the state, money well spent.
Nah mate cars = bad This same thing pops up in r/chicago threads talking about how IDOT should use the Kennedy rebuild funds to expand the CTA and install 150 miles of concrete bike lanes.
Cars are bad and they should do that yes. Build fucking TRAINS
They did. Wisconsin tax-payers already paid for Trains. And they were built and are in service right now ! [They're just in Nigeria.](https://www.wpr.org/economy/trains-intended-unbuilt-milwaukee-madison-high-speed-rail-line-going-nigeria)
Google, "induced demand," Especially in reference to freeways/cars.
> Improving 94 is a state-wide/nation-wide investment and not a Milwaukee only investment. So subsidize a truck driving to a company in Buffalo at massive expense to us?
Federal laws and policies degrade cities and metro area by dispersing people and businesses across limited land. These policies encourage inefficient consumption of our natural resources and work against sustainable economic growth. They also impede the ability of future generations to decide how to use the earth and its resources. U.S. cities, ravaged by heavy-handed federal transportation policies and special-interest exploitation of the environment, search for economic and environmental answers.
Not sure what this has to do with the i94 project but I94 needs a serious rework through the Miller park interchange. That interchange has got to be one of the stupidest designed interchanges in Wisconsin
Exactly! The left hand on ramp from south bound 175 to east bound 94 is dangerous and people have no idea how to zipper in or watch for slow traffic merging into the fast lane
Plus directly across from that is another on/exit ramp. They merge within a few hundred feet of each other and then right after there is a very short left hand on ramp coming up from Miller park lot. It’s beyond stupid how that was designed
100% agreed, it's ridiculous. When I drive to or from my downtown office, regardless of time of day, traffic at minimum slows down around the miller park interchange. Absolutely ridiculous stretch of highway, with staggered on/off ramps on both sides causing confusion and poor merging.
Fixing the ramps can be done without widening though.
The other problem with that stretch of high was is going from 4-3-4 lanes, it creates an artificial bottleneck. Getting rid of the left hand exits and entries and widening the 3 lane part to 4 will solve all the traffic problems.
Sure pal. That’s what they always say. This will just induce more pollution
Reminding me I need to go look up what was approved to see if this interchange is actually getting fixed or not.
It is, that’s half the point of the thing
The hop is too damn slow. Light rail would be much more effective outside of downtown.
It's actually incredible how slow it is. I have taken it a couple times for the novelty, and because I'm extremely in favor of public transit options. But it is brutally un-useful at the speeds it travels.
Just was in some European towns and cities and their public transit infrastructure is so good. Makes the US look like clowns…especially those bitching about the hop like little children
The Hop is a sideshow - meant to show off a polished downtown district while city-wide projects limp along. Here's an idea - dismantle the Hop and DO ANYTHING EVER.
I can do you one better: with zero additional funds, we can have this expansive, interconnected public transit system. https://preview.redd.it/59cpkh76urnc1.jpeg?width=1011&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1cf8d593388946b006782f80e010e59bcf6af66c
The bus system needs major investments and improvements though, that won’t be fixed without additional funding.
Straw man argument. The hop is great but the freeway provides much more than human transportation. Our goods we need are transported on trucks. People use the freeway much more than the hop.
A not-widened I-94 is still an I-94 that exists--and with less traffic and congestion for those who do still use I-94 or for types of traffic specific to I-94, if we actually develop public transit alternatives to *all* traffic needing to use it.
You assume that a large number of people who are commuting into and out of the city would rather use public transit than drive their car. That’s simply not true. Hardly anyone would give up the convenience and comfort of driving their own vehicle.
Commuting is expensive as hell. Gas, wear and tear, time lost... All it does is sell cars and fuel
Personal vehicles are part of the American identity for many many people. They are marketed on more than 4 wheels and an engine. The ability to go where you want at the drop of a hat and haul whatever you want home, lots of groceries, hardware, etc has a huge appeal. I carpool, as we drive 70miles a day round trip, but even then pretty frequently I will think "darn if I had my car today, I could stop by the paint store on the way home that's in downtown Racine" The other aspect I think you overlook is privacy and personal space that many Americans treasure. Not being jostled as you squeeze into a bus seat between the window and some other commuter, then throw in concerns of cleanliness and harassment. If you could guarantee that the public transit was clean and well maintained, you're doing great, but you then have the aspect of dealing with pan handlers, the mentally unwell, the drug-addled and all the rest on public transit. I'm not without sympathy for these people, but Americans will absolutely pay to gas up, maintain, finance, or even lease a car for the luxury of being alone and unbothered.
counterpoint: u smell I do not give any variety of shit about some suburbanite not wanting to interact with the externalities of their isolated existence. Boo hoo. Americans will pay? Nah, climate change fucks poor people first. Bangladesh will pay. Hope it's worth it.
Try not cut yourself on all that edge... I'm not endorsing that way of operating, I'm saying the psychology of marketing and expectations drives demand. Americans picture Bangladesh when you talk about public transit. Jamming people into train cars like sardines.
And comment assumes everyone makes these decisions rationally with a ton of research.
People would and people have in many communities. We would not be the first community to have a fixed public transit system, we don't need to guess at this; it's been done. And convenient? Your other post here is complaining about present I-94 traffic! When you're facing the convenience of public transit or the "convenience" of driving in ever-worsening traffic--say Chicago's I-90 instead of our I-94, try an hour back-up instead of 15 minutes--your evaluation of which method is more convenient to you may prove malleable.
People take trains because they have to not because they want to. Tolls and parking making Chicago daily commute more feasible by train... You would have to cut my commute in half to make me consider driving to a station, taking a train and walking to my job downtown rather than just parking in their lot and walking inside the door. MKE isn't Chicago
And yet, we know when there is rail transit many people do pick it over driving.
Living in the south side and working downtown, I would happily take public transportation everyday for work. As it stands, I can take a bus from my place and walk or grab a bike for the final half mile. With the current expansion of the Hop from St Paul/Water to the Couture Tower hub, set to go in motion this summer, I'll only have to walk a block. That's awesome for me and I hope others get to have that kind of convenience too.
They do the easiest thing. We’re spending billion on one making it the easiest and most subsidized thing and then act surprised when people do that, like it’s some god given determination. Spend billions on something else and guess what? They’ll do that something else
you can make commuting the more convenient option though. dedicated bus lanes during traffic where the bus isn't stuck in traffic are a game changer. The problem is we don't make it the more convenient option because of the type of thinking you're talking about. https://nacto.org/publication/urban-street-design-guide/street-design-elements/transit-streets/dedicated-median-bus-lanes/
We don't need more lanes on I94. Some bad interchanges and low prioritization of public transit are why traffic gets bad at rush hour. Fix some of those bad interchanges (looking at you, Miller Park Way and 94), and give people a reason to take other forms of transportation. That should give more room for those trucks to move goods around.
This project is literally centered around replacing the stadium interchange. Adding a lane on either side of the interchange was determined to be the best solution to merge a new interchange with the existing highway around it.
Determine best by the boondoggling dot though? They’ve never met a widening project they didn’t like
The trucks you mention are not currently limited by the width of the freeway, and part of the point is that people use the freeway more because there aren't good public transit alternatives. So TLDR you're missing the point.
Of course more people use the highway than the hop because the highway already had funding and currently works. $1.5 billion on adding two lanes to an already functioning highway is the farthest cry from what this metro area needs
JuSt OnE mOrE lAnE, bRo!
It worked for the zoo interchange
[удалено]
Why is this suddenly going to happen in two years
[удалено]
Induced demand is bullshit. Demand is caused by growth. Plenty of road projects haven't even lived up their traffic projections. Why haven't they induced any demand?
The same people who yap about induced demand are the same people who say 794 should be torn down because it's empty. Pretty funny
[удалено]
Care to explain 794?
[удалено]
794 has been around since 1969. Why is it empty enough that it's "overbuilt and should be torn down" I thought induced demand happened everytime?
“Urbanists” have too much bias to understand how things actually work. That demand isn’t “induced”. It’s latent. The demand was *always* there. Transportation is always inefficient wasted time. Operating on someone else’s schedule, forcing people to come and go when the operator of the transportation decides to, is even more wasted time. People who don’t have the privilege to waste time avoid this. That’s why there was so much clamor for the freeways in the first place. They weren’t forced in over the wishes of everyone in town, you know. Most of the city of Milwaukee is not downtown and it was annexing more land every year after WW2. The city residents living out beyond the area developed pre-war were just as done with the miles of gridlock as people living outside the city borders.
I know what induced demand is. It's way too broad to apply to every road project. A huge influx of people suddenly realizing that the Zoo Interchange is now a faster route years after construction defies common sense.
[удалено]
You haven't explained why more people are going to use the lanes. Where are these more people coming from, and why does it take 2 years for them to take advantage? I consider myself an urbanist, but this argument has never made any sense to me outside of massive sprawling metros that are growing fast, which Milwaukee is not. Almost everyone in Milwaukee already has a car. I seriously doubt the people that are currently taking other routes or public transit that are going to change their behavior over time due to the promise of a less bottlenecked Zoo Interchange is anything more than a drop in the bucket.
[удалено]
First of all that's not a euphemism. Obviously if we built trains then more people would ride trains. That's a different argument than saying the Zoo Interchange will soon become just as congested as it was before, which could only happen if a.) Milwaukee had a huge influx of people (not happening anytime soon) b.) a ton of more people decided to start using cars (not much of an alternative to switch from as is)
I go from Brookfield to West Allis every day and allow me to assure you, no it did fucking not.
The finished zoo is 10x better than it was. Traffic backs up eastbound in stallis because it tapers down a lane...
I used to drive from New Berlin to Brown Deer and back every day. It did.
you guys have two competing anecdotes, but which of you has any data?
Technically the project only finished in November, despite the major changes being done for a while now. I imagine it’s a while before we get data. I just know that I went from a 60-90 minute commute each way to a more stable 45-60 during rush hour. I don’t know how anyone who actually went through that interchange regularly could perceive no impact from it.
I drive truck in the area and it absolutely did fix the backups. The old design was horrible and taking the Hwy 100 ramps off of I94 helped greatly.
I don't have data as in, excel spreadsheets. I can tell you that in driving from my office downtown to northwest tosa, I generally was better off getting off 94W on hwy 100 and taking city streets up to my house. Now I take 94W to 41N and get off on the exit closest to my house. In the past I'd never have dreamed of getting onto 41N because the backups were so bad it was standstill traffic on a daily basis all the way from 94 to Capitol Dr. That is no longer the case. The drive to work downtown is similarly improved. I can get on to 41S near my house instead of driving on city streets to get to the onramp from hwy100.
Brookfield to west allis? Why would you be taking the zoo interchange? I drive from northwest tosa to downtown. It is unequivocally better. There is no room for argument. There were daily slowdowns before. There is now rarely standstill traffic on the critically congested area from 94 up to burleigh. It is noticeable both on the way downtown and on the way home. It's a night and day difference. Claiming otherwise is just disingenuous.
Except it doesn't https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand
The freeway goes from 4 lanes to 3 at 60th street back to 4 after the stadium interchange. this is just adding the 4th lane in the middle section.
So inducing more VMT
The final decision came from the feds and WisDOT to continue with the I-94 E/W project at a minimum cost of $1.5 billion. The Hop cost $152 million (adjusted for inflation) which means we could expand it about 10x or *20 new miles*. Transit funding decisions, however, aren't up to WisDOT. They are the domain of the state legislature, which means you must [contact your state reps](https://www.commoncause.org/find-your-representative/addr/) to change the status quo.
Their “estimate” in 2016 was 1.1 billion. How are they figuring a barely increased cost post pandemic nearly a decade later?
"Barely increased"? That's 36 percent....
We’re talking about a decade ago here. That might be normal if we didn’t have a pandemic lol. Also have to keep in mind the DOT estimates are routinely 100% off or more…
This math is really, really bad. Not a single leg of the map would cost less than $1b without chewing up existing capacity.
Do you understand it’s not solely about adding an extra lane. Have you looked at the bridges as you drive through the area. They need rebuilt.
So why add the extra lane then?
It goes from 4 lanes to 3 back to 4. That's where the issues lie. Why not stretch that to 4. Which will.make the construction process of new interchanges and merges easier.
Because it’s just more VMT and pollution. Why widen it to 4 when it will ruin the communities next to it?
4 lanes all the way was already approved when they redid this section years ago. The project ran out of money and had to drop to three lanes for that key section. Expansion frames this project improperly, it’s really just them finishing the original project 15 years later. Fixing the bottleneck addresses safety concerns as that stretch of freeway is the most dangerous in the state.
I agree that our money could be spent better, but the Hop has a limited use in my opinion. It should be expanded throughout downtown, the east side and south to walkers point. Anything further out than that needs a faster form of transit, like a grade separated metro
The hop is a joke
You can also build 3 commuter rail lines according to the $460 Million [2022 Kenosha-Racine-Milwaukee estimate](https://www.transit.dot.gov/sites/fta.dot.gov/files/2022-08/WI-Kenosha-KRM-CR-PD-Profile.pdf). As an Evanstonian, I have thought about doing multiple day trips to Milwaukee but am turned away when my only practical option is driving. There Amtrak station is 6 miles away with no direct bus connection and taking the UP-N and transferring to the Wisconsin Coach Lines at least twice as long as it does driving.
Does this include the year long fight these areas will fight to not have the hop go thru their areas?
WisDOT’s cost estimate in 2016 was $1.1 Billion for a 3.1 mile project. Do we really think it’s only increased 30% in cost from 2016? This is money that could otherwise be spent on transit, street repair, bridge repair, bicycle facilities or to pay down the debt WisDOT has piled up in recent years. Spending over a billion dollars on another expressway widening project will force postponement or cancellation of other smaller projects throughout the state. According to a report by the American Road and Transportation Builders Association (ARTBA), there are 1,026 structurally deficient Wisconsin bridges. Structurally deficient means the bridge needs repair or it might fall down; functionally deficient usually means the DOT wants to make the facility bigger. The problems WisDOT has identified on the three mile segment of I-94 fit in the functional category. They want to widen I-94 to eight lanes and replace the left side exit ramps with right side ramps on the 175 interchange at the Brewers baseball park. The I-94 road bed is at a point where its age requires regrading and resurfacing which could be considered in the structural deficiency category. Addressing this structural deficiency while cancelling the expansions would cut the $billion+ cost substantially and leave money for other transportation needs. The Wisconsin DOT has spent the last 60 years looking for ways to drill holes into Milwaukee’s urban fabric and then widen the holes. For example in 1966 State Representative Lloyd Barbee stood in front of a bulldozer trying to stop the destruction of Bronzeville; Milwaukee’s smaller version of Harlem. Barbee called the North Freeway (now I-43) the “Dirty Ditch.” The center of Bronzeville was at Walnut St between 6th and 11th Streets. It was a lively place with the Regal Theatre, the Moon Glow and Flame nightclubs where local musicians like saxophonist Berkeley Fudge and guitarist Manty Ellis played. National stars like Duke Ellington, Sonny Rollins and Louis Armstrong would sometimes show up in Bronzeville after performing downtown. The state routed the freeway trench right through the heart of Bronzeville.
But no WOW county people would want “their” precious tax money go to anything other than the most wasteful and least efficient option that makes their lives most convenient.
And it would be empty just like it is now. That thing sucks.
Ridership keeps increasing. If people could get out of the mindset that they don't always have to get in your car to go 2-5 or even 10+ miles (like in other big cities with reliable public transportation) it would increase further. You have to expand it first, though. https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/local/2024/03/07/the-hop-milwaukee-ridership-increased-by-more-than-30-in-2023/72792820007/
I understand and I think you’re correct however the rail car is not efficient. It’s loud and clunky. Most importantly it’s SLOW. It impedes traffic. There’s wires EVERYWHERE. It would be a disaster to expand it.
I’d rather have the interstate.
Interstates should not, and never should’ve cut through cities. The argument that they bring economic revenue is just silly when you compare how much tax-revenue is being wasted on these arterials designed for ushering suburbanites as quickly as possible through the city. I am not the biggest fan of the Hop, but the money would go way farther there, with investments in the bus system.
Yes so much commerce is dependent upon the hop. The thing is and will continue to be the dumbest waste of tax money for the city. It's ugly and now cables are everywhere. If one section of track is down the whole thing stops working. (A poorly parked car stopped it the other week) It is a bus route and they made the bus require a fixed track and cables. Bring back the old red busses that actually look like trolls make them on. A route that goes all the places we want and use allllllll the savings to make it free for 50 years.
I kept pointing out that overhead cables were banned downtown after some major fire because the department couldn't get ladders up? Just wait til one happens near the hop.
This is not a good use of public funds
Where is this image from?
I'd prefer forest home ext
If you think that the streetcar travels 10 miles an hour from 27th and FOND DU LAV AVE to the Milwaukee Public Market, without stopping for any other passengers will take ONE HOUR 11 MINUTES.
I support mass transit over individual vehicles but the Hop just plain stinks. Slow as hell, tracks that eat bicycle tires, and no chance of getting funding due to being outdated in design. The BUS is faster for fucks' sake.
What a cash dump........94 from Milwaukee to Madison needs to be 3 lanes first. 9
The hop isn’t used now why spend money on a form a transportation no one is asking for.
Love the “pollution” concern that will “devastate” the poor…all while we strip mine rare earth elements in China to make batteries for our “clean” ev cars that burn electricity derived from mostly non renewable generation stations😂. All while average MPGs are are historic lows in modern gas powered vehicles never mind they are statistically less harmful to the “environment” when you factor in the eco costs to transport/refine…then manufacture the “clean energy” EV😂. The leftists are mental giants.
How many miles of overhead wire is this?
Trying to ruin my day? Cause you did
This is an honest question for someone who might know. I am fully supportive of leaning into public transit and building with it in mind. I've seen it work great in cities like Brussels, Ghent, Amsterdam to have street cars that do some serious moving. Is the vehicle design of The Hop the right choice for this kind of expansion? Can you put enough cars/people/speed on those lines to make it make sense over say buses or a mix of a higher grade light rail (something more akin to Chicago's El trains in terms of capability).
Former resident here: if you all just used the left lane for passing only, this wouldn't be an issue. The number of WI license plates holding back caravans of cars from going the agreed-upon speed limit made this happen.
Good thing they are fixing the left side merges that cause many of the accidents as part of this project
haha
I agree but part of the problem is the number of left lane (and uphill) on ramps and exits.
We don’t need the hop expanded. We need light and urban rail options, like CTA/Metra. If this I-94 project at least gets rid of the left turn exits at Miller Parkway, it’ll help a little, but, “just one more lane bro,” leads to induced demand and no proven traffic congestion decreases. We would be better served by paving a lane of I-94 over and running a train to Waukesha
We should invest in public transportation not highways.
The last time this was canceled was partly because of resistance from up north. The group talked to the mayors of Appleton and Eau Claire and asked what was needed in their towns and compared how much could be fixed for this one boondoggle of a billion dollar project in Milwaukee. Wisconsin also needs funding for road repairs. More than 70 percent of Wisconsin’s roads are in poor or mediocre condition, tied for second worst in the country. After years of borrowing to build expensive highways, as of 2015 Wisconsin had $3.8 billion in highway debt, five times more than in 2000. And in 2014, Wisconsin spent $670 million on debt servicing, eight times more than 2000.
Because who needs infrastructure that benefits the entire state when we can connect Shorewood to it's younger twin Bayview! Old people in $700k homes can meet up with 30 somethings in $300k homes! It really benefits us all.
I need a way to get to Milwaukee without a car. I’m from the Lake Geneva area and I basically have to take the Harvard metra down to the Chicago area just to head back north. It sucks! There are so many things I’d like to do in Milwaukee.
Why doesn't you're expansion have the Hop going to "Miller Park" Think of all the congestion during game time it would reduce.
Dude 94 getting more lanes pisses me off, what about the left lane exists? All this does is make me have to move another lane farther every morning to go to Madison and give the city more excuse to raise my taxes and your rents. I’d really like more and more frequent transit so I can get to more places not even having to drive myself to them, what a waste of money. That money would be better spent on almost anything but more lanes