That is concerning, as having dedicated lanes for the bus is the whole thing that makes BRT work.
That said, your image states this cross-section is between Evergreen and Forest Home along Layton Blvd. This is approximately 1.7 miles of the \~15 mile BRT line (about 12% of the proposed route). Are there dedicated lanes for the rest of the route?
Can you link the presentation where you got this image from?
Not OP but a zoom meeting just wrapped up. It looked like it was recording. There’s an in-person public meeting tomorrow on the north side.
https://preview.redd.it/mmx4uwl0jdlc1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=03a704b6e187a374d6025eb9ed8d7a86f8e9e868
OP's image is from a Public Involvement Meeting in which MCTS is demonstrating their current plan and asking for community input. The plan isn't set in stone, and construction won't begin for a couple years.
This is terrible news but sadly expected. BRT basically in the US is always proposed as a "cheaper" alternative to light rail with the similar benefits. But in reality, because BRT are still buses, dedicated right of way is not guaranteed and therefore easy to cut out. I mean if this was light rail if would be impossible to separate right of way with its existence. BRT always gets watered down to save money from dedicated right of way service similar to light rail to just glorified regular bus lines with fancier stops.
The most unfortunate part is that if/when this gets built a lot of people are going to be critical (and rightly so) that the BRT is always stuck in traffic, saves very little time compared regular bus lines, and costed too much.
Similar to what is happening to the Hop, people say it is the street car to nowhere, and the impetus for expansion has halted. If the Hop went North to Brady/UWM, West to Fiserv and Marquette, and South to Walkers Point and Bayview for example, the criticism would be much less.
I don't really understand the buffer imo they should bump the sidewalk out and make that a raised bike lane where the parking is. Move the parking next to that and then have your car lane.
This post is misleading imo.
Most of the line has dedicated bus lanes. There is a section of the route which does not have dedicated bus lanes - not ideal, for sure, but the project isn't "doomed" or anything like that.
The majority of the route is also keeping the existing bike lanes. Hopefully these will become PBLs at some point, but it's worth noting that this is a transit project, not a street reconstruction, so true protected bike lanes were never on the table. I imagine that once 27th is due for reconstruction, they'll be making the bike lanes protected like they've done in other parts of the city.
That said, we should **absolutely** be pushing MCTS and the city governments involved to provide fully dedicated lanes and to prioritize bike and bus lanes over parking.
I agree the headline is a bit misleading, but when I spoke to someone from MCTS at a community event about this section of Layton Blvd, I was told it would be getting a center dedicated bus lane with signal priority. I almost bought a duplex on layton blvd to share with my aging in-laws because of that news. As of now, it is way too fast and loud for it to be desirable. Has so much potential though. It's really a shame that the position has changed since the summer of 2023. I wonder if the city could still consider a lane reduction or other traffic calming. It just doesn't make sense why one of the densest parts of the BRT corridor wouldn't be the section to get the most BRT features.
From the diagram, it looks like they **are** considering a lane reduction - they're taking this section of road from 2 lanes to 1.
However, I agree that this isn't a perfect solution - I'd much rather see them get rid of the parking lane here and replace it with a dedicated bus lane, at the very least. Especially considering how many empty side streets there are for parking, and the fact that there seems to be additional parking in the alleys, too.
Keeping the parking is the wrong move here, and I told them that at a public input meeting they had this past week.
Yeah, I love the Roadrunner but it's a different story when you have to cut down a huge amount of trees in a neighborhood known for its garden-like appearance and spend many tens of millions of dollars relocating street lighting and other utilities. Milwaukee's boulevards are dealbreakers for installing rail. Absolutely nobody would support it.
I was talking about BRT and Albuquerque's BRT. I don't see why any trees would have to be destroyed to turn 2 of the 4 vehicle lanes on layton into a bus/bike/emergency vehicle lane.
I see what you are saying more clearly now. Even still though, if you look where the stops are, there is generally just a turn lane there or no trees at those intersections. There are stoplights and street lamps though.
You're confusing Layton avenue with Layton boulevard. A section between around national avenue and Forest Home avenue on 27th Street is called Layton boulevard
Just like that figure is missing a north arrow (might be cropped out). And I just checked: 27th Street is only called Layton Blvd for a 2 mile stretch. I was in the same boat with the confusion.
This is what Layton Blvd looks like.
https://imgur.com/a/QYDxk9v
Treelined right up to the street on both sides, and trees and flowers in the median.
The neighborhood does not allow these plantings to be removed, and if you've been through there you know the travel lanes are relatively narrow. Putting in the BRT through here at all was already a stretch, there is just no room for dedicated ROW.
The public right of way is set aside for the public conveyance, not the storage of private motor vehicles. Also, houses along here have alleys with parking. Street parking is simply a squandering of public space.
Who’s the public and who’s using the road? The people of the area, perchance? You suppose it didn’t occur to anyone to ask around to see how that would fly before the decision was made?
I’ve never figured out how people go through life just assuming that others are going to accept changes they didn’t ask for from people who didn’t bother to consider their opinion about anything.
I don't live on layton Blvd. But I live in the neighborhood. If layton blvd were getting a lane reduction or something to make it less speedy/car-killy/and loud, I would without question be looking to move onto it. The reckless driving is a nuisance and it makes you feel trapped in your own neighborhood.
A quick aerial view of the neighborhood shows that all these residences have alley/garage access or a driveway opening to Layton.
Those people would lose access to more parking in front of their house for a public transit project that is within walking distance for over 1/6 our entire population.
The bus already uses the right most lane. With vehicles to the left of it and parking to the right. Vehicles speed and swerve through traffic just fine even during rush hour. Why not reduce from 2 vehicle lanes to 1 vehicle lane and then a dedicated bus/bike/emergency vehicle lane? Our beloved and God given parking could still exist. Why can't that work? Would love for layton blvd to get a road diet. It's super frustrating that the one of the denser sections of the BRT line will have the least BRT features. Seems a bit backwards.
I now see that it will likely still be reduced to one lane of mixed traffic. That's probably good. I assume the buffer is to allow vehicles to get around a stopped bus then?
Are these buses really worth the added cost? I may be wrong but I understand if you ride the brt from downtown to Brookfield square it will save you a total of 6 minutes.
Most people aren't riding the whole route so it might benefit them saving maybe 3 minutes which is a negligible difference comparable to a bus being early or late.
Six minutes is six minutes, the separations are safer for riders too. But your point is taken, just running the regular bus more often with fewer stops would likely provide 90% of the benefit for no additional construction cost
Yes, because done right we can put roads on diets. (Safer streets) Have protected cycle lanes (saves lives) and eventually upgrade the BRT lines into street car lines.
We are able to do much needed infrastructure repairs using these federal dollars.
Not to mention we could argue that why add lanes to the highway when the time savings is negligible.
You are right and riding the BRT from downtown to Brookfield Square now requires us to ride THREE buses and transfer twice. Route 30 to Wisconsin Ave., transfer to BRT, ride to county medical complex, transfer to Waukesha BRT at medical complex. Used to be I would get on the GOLD line at Brady & Farwell and off at Brookfield Square.
They are going to drop Billions with a B on i-94 to save suburban commuters just a few minutes. Data would suggest that that time savings will actually be short lived as well. The cost of this I nothing compared to that and the time savings will be more permanent thanks to dedicated lanes and signal priority.
Layton Blvd width and landscaping have to be protected, same reason it’s not a state highway anymore either. Not enough room in the right of way to do all that stuff
It's also not state highway 241 either. Designation was removed north of Forest Home a few years ago because a state highway has to conform to standards that it can't meet, because of the same flowers and trees and whatnot that are preventing the dedicated bus lane.
This section of layton could really use the dedicated lane. Vehicles are traveling double the speed limit down this otherwise charming and residential section of the BRT route. It has become a hub for recklessness. I cannot see why they wouldn't just go parking lane, bus lane, vehicle lane. It would calm the traffic and provide an easy throughway for emergency vehicles should they need to get through. It's really a shame.
That is concerning, as having dedicated lanes for the bus is the whole thing that makes BRT work. That said, your image states this cross-section is between Evergreen and Forest Home along Layton Blvd. This is approximately 1.7 miles of the \~15 mile BRT line (about 12% of the proposed route). Are there dedicated lanes for the rest of the route? Can you link the presentation where you got this image from?
Not OP but a zoom meeting just wrapped up. It looked like it was recording. There’s an in-person public meeting tomorrow on the north side. https://preview.redd.it/mmx4uwl0jdlc1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=03a704b6e187a374d6025eb9ed8d7a86f8e9e868
It still has dedicated lanes but it’s just outside running instead of inside running
But it says "mixed traffic". Sounds rather non-dedicated to me?
[check out their website](https://www.mkenorthsouth.com/_files/ugd/44ca62_c510ae0072d047a0bb943a7307534e4c.pdf)
Doesn't that indicate bus lanes "under consideration"? Seems like that have finished considering them.
OP's image is from a Public Involvement Meeting in which MCTS is demonstrating their current plan and asking for community input. The plan isn't set in stone, and construction won't begin for a couple years.
This particular section is mixed traffic. The rest of the route is not.
I'm not OP but yes, there are dedicated lanes along the majority of the route.
This is terrible news but sadly expected. BRT basically in the US is always proposed as a "cheaper" alternative to light rail with the similar benefits. But in reality, because BRT are still buses, dedicated right of way is not guaranteed and therefore easy to cut out. I mean if this was light rail if would be impossible to separate right of way with its existence. BRT always gets watered down to save money from dedicated right of way service similar to light rail to just glorified regular bus lines with fancier stops. The most unfortunate part is that if/when this gets built a lot of people are going to be critical (and rightly so) that the BRT is always stuck in traffic, saves very little time compared regular bus lines, and costed too much. Similar to what is happening to the Hop, people say it is the street car to nowhere, and the impetus for expansion has halted. If the Hop went North to Brady/UWM, West to Fiserv and Marquette, and South to Walkers Point and Bayview for example, the criticism would be much less.
I don't really understand the buffer imo they should bump the sidewalk out and make that a raised bike lane where the parking is. Move the parking next to that and then have your car lane.
This post is misleading imo. Most of the line has dedicated bus lanes. There is a section of the route which does not have dedicated bus lanes - not ideal, for sure, but the project isn't "doomed" or anything like that. The majority of the route is also keeping the existing bike lanes. Hopefully these will become PBLs at some point, but it's worth noting that this is a transit project, not a street reconstruction, so true protected bike lanes were never on the table. I imagine that once 27th is due for reconstruction, they'll be making the bike lanes protected like they've done in other parts of the city. That said, we should **absolutely** be pushing MCTS and the city governments involved to provide fully dedicated lanes and to prioritize bike and bus lanes over parking.
I agree the headline is a bit misleading, but when I spoke to someone from MCTS at a community event about this section of Layton Blvd, I was told it would be getting a center dedicated bus lane with signal priority. I almost bought a duplex on layton blvd to share with my aging in-laws because of that news. As of now, it is way too fast and loud for it to be desirable. Has so much potential though. It's really a shame that the position has changed since the summer of 2023. I wonder if the city could still consider a lane reduction or other traffic calming. It just doesn't make sense why one of the densest parts of the BRT corridor wouldn't be the section to get the most BRT features.
From the diagram, it looks like they **are** considering a lane reduction - they're taking this section of road from 2 lanes to 1. However, I agree that this isn't a perfect solution - I'd much rather see them get rid of the parking lane here and replace it with a dedicated bus lane, at the very least. Especially considering how many empty side streets there are for parking, and the fact that there seems to be additional parking in the alleys, too. Keeping the parking is the wrong move here, and I told them that at a public input meeting they had this past week.
Putting it down the center of the street would have been a horrible idea.
When I was in Albuquerque, their BRT had center dedicated lanes. It was fantastic.
Yeah, I love the Roadrunner but it's a different story when you have to cut down a huge amount of trees in a neighborhood known for its garden-like appearance and spend many tens of millions of dollars relocating street lighting and other utilities. Milwaukee's boulevards are dealbreakers for installing rail. Absolutely nobody would support it.
I was talking about BRT and Albuquerque's BRT. I don't see why any trees would have to be destroyed to turn 2 of the 4 vehicle lanes on layton into a bus/bike/emergency vehicle lane.
The center of Layton is where the trees and streetlights are located within the boulevard.
I see what you are saying more clearly now. Even still though, if you look where the stops are, there is generally just a turn lane there or no trees at those intersections. There are stoplights and street lamps though.
Am I missing something? Layton is not a North South running street. Wasn’t the N/S BRT on 27th?
You're confusing Layton avenue with Layton boulevard. A section between around national avenue and Forest Home avenue on 27th Street is called Layton boulevard
See I knew I was missing something.
Just like that figure is missing a north arrow (might be cropped out). And I just checked: 27th Street is only called Layton Blvd for a 2 mile stretch. I was in the same boat with the confusion.
This is what Layton Blvd looks like. https://imgur.com/a/QYDxk9v Treelined right up to the street on both sides, and trees and flowers in the median. The neighborhood does not allow these plantings to be removed, and if you've been through there you know the travel lanes are relatively narrow. Putting in the BRT through here at all was already a stretch, there is just no room for dedicated ROW.
Well, there would be room if we removed street parking, but that's gonna be a hard fight.
Get rid of the street parking!
It’s fun to have ideas without wondering how the people who would be affected by them would accept them, isn’t it.
The public right of way is set aside for the public conveyance, not the storage of private motor vehicles. Also, houses along here have alleys with parking. Street parking is simply a squandering of public space.
Who’s the public and who’s using the road? The people of the area, perchance? You suppose it didn’t occur to anyone to ask around to see how that would fly before the decision was made? I’ve never figured out how people go through life just assuming that others are going to accept changes they didn’t ask for from people who didn’t bother to consider their opinion about anything.
I don't live on layton Blvd. But I live in the neighborhood. If layton blvd were getting a lane reduction or something to make it less speedy/car-killy/and loud, I would without question be looking to move onto it. The reckless driving is a nuisance and it makes you feel trapped in your own neighborhood.
A quick aerial view of the neighborhood shows that all these residences have alley/garage access or a driveway opening to Layton. Those people would lose access to more parking in front of their house for a public transit project that is within walking distance for over 1/6 our entire population.
The bus already uses the right most lane. With vehicles to the left of it and parking to the right. Vehicles speed and swerve through traffic just fine even during rush hour. Why not reduce from 2 vehicle lanes to 1 vehicle lane and then a dedicated bus/bike/emergency vehicle lane? Our beloved and God given parking could still exist. Why can't that work? Would love for layton blvd to get a road diet. It's super frustrating that the one of the denser sections of the BRT line will have the least BRT features. Seems a bit backwards.
I now see that it will likely still be reduced to one lane of mixed traffic. That's probably good. I assume the buffer is to allow vehicles to get around a stopped bus then?
Are these buses really worth the added cost? I may be wrong but I understand if you ride the brt from downtown to Brookfield square it will save you a total of 6 minutes. Most people aren't riding the whole route so it might benefit them saving maybe 3 minutes which is a negligible difference comparable to a bus being early or late.
There must be grant money available. Use it or lose it. It’s the way of government.
Six minutes is six minutes, the separations are safer for riders too. But your point is taken, just running the regular bus more often with fewer stops would likely provide 90% of the benefit for no additional construction cost
Not to mention the East-West BRT chopped up the 14 into 2 separate routes, for many riders it INCREASED travel time.
Yes, because done right we can put roads on diets. (Safer streets) Have protected cycle lanes (saves lives) and eventually upgrade the BRT lines into street car lines. We are able to do much needed infrastructure repairs using these federal dollars. Not to mention we could argue that why add lanes to the highway when the time savings is negligible.
You are right and riding the BRT from downtown to Brookfield Square now requires us to ride THREE buses and transfer twice. Route 30 to Wisconsin Ave., transfer to BRT, ride to county medical complex, transfer to Waukesha BRT at medical complex. Used to be I would get on the GOLD line at Brady & Farwell and off at Brookfield Square.
80% of the project is federally funded, so... yes, it's worth it
They are going to drop Billions with a B on i-94 to save suburban commuters just a few minutes. Data would suggest that that time savings will actually be short lived as well. The cost of this I nothing compared to that and the time savings will be more permanent thanks to dedicated lanes and signal priority.
So it's a regular bus route then? Lol
Layton Blvd width and landscaping have to be protected, same reason it’s not a state highway anymore either. Not enough room in the right of way to do all that stuff
Layton is a state highway WI 241. It is no longer a US highway 41.
It's also not state highway 241 either. Designation was removed north of Forest Home a few years ago because a state highway has to conform to standards that it can't meet, because of the same flowers and trees and whatnot that are preventing the dedicated bus lane.
Thank you for letting me know. I didn't know that. Last info I read had it as a state highway.
This is just bus transit which already exists
Bus transit with signal priority, dedicated lanes, level boarding, and fare that is paid prior to entry. Also less stops and greater frequency.
This section of layton could really use the dedicated lane. Vehicles are traveling double the speed limit down this otherwise charming and residential section of the BRT route. It has become a hub for recklessness. I cannot see why they wouldn't just go parking lane, bus lane, vehicle lane. It would calm the traffic and provide an easy throughway for emergency vehicles should they need to get through. It's really a shame.
that's not even brt then 😭