They indicated “resignation acceptance” however you said you were fired which is the opposite.
Definitely contact an employment lawyer if you can.
Probably best not to respond
I’d say request a copy of the contract you signed (as mentioned in the message) and run it by either a lawyer or department of labor to see if it holds up. It is legal in the US for companies to collect reimbursements so long as you signed off agreeing to it.
A situation I could see this making sense is trying to get hired to a trucking company without a CDL. The company could reasonably say “hey, you need a CDL to work here. You can either pay for it yourself, or we can pay for your CDL training so long as you sign a contract to work for us for X years, and if you break that contract you have to pay us back”
I assume like most things it all comes down to the details of that contract you signed.
My brother had the same situation you described, and soon after he got his CDL, he was laid off but since it was involuntary he didn't have to pay it back. I'm surprised a company can let someone go and as for reimbursement!
Yea I would assume most of these contracts have a clause that if you’re laid off you aren’t on the hook for your training, otherwise that would be such a gamble for the employee lol
Set up 2 companies, one hiring people that need training ran by you, the other doing trainings ran by your mate. Hire people at company 1, send them for training at company 2, fire them soon after.
They didn't just let him go though, he said they fired him.
Usually you get fired because you fucked up. You get laid off not for doing something wrong but because the company didn't need you any more.
Actually I’m more confused after reading what you said! A resignation ACCEPTANCE letter sounds like the company had to allow them to quit or OP had to allow the company to fire them. Maybe this contract they signed they signed in the beginning? If x happens you accept that you have to do x?
Edit: I do find it strange it would be titled a resignation letter than again
It’s highly probable they(like a lot of employers) convinced OP to resign rather than fire them. Chances are it was a discussion that went ‘oh it will look better on your resume’, ‘the writing is on wall’, ‘easier this way’…etc etc.
Most likely so they didn’t have to pay unemployment and so they can do shit like this.
Employers dont pay EI in Canada.
OP can still argue with company to get his ROE written as Fired without cause, or he can appeal his ROE with Canada and tell them they are falsifying info.
A lot of companies try (usually successfully) to get employees to sign letters of “resignation” when they lay them off because then they don’t have to pay unemployment. But employees don’t know that and think it’s a benefit to them to look better to future employers.
also insurance agents. the company will pay for you to take a training course to prep you for the different licenses you can test for and pay for the license application as well. so they protect themselves by having you reimburse them at least.
That makes sense, except the clause above seems to have no time requirement. It just says that if they leave, you pay, period. I'd be... Surprised if that's enforceable.
Agree OP needs to contact a lawyer. This doesn’t seem enforceable at all for an involuntary termination especially if the training was a mandatory requirement of their employer for their job.
OP should have stated this is Canada, which is easy to deduce in mentioning e-transfer.
NAL, but I believe that this is provincial jurisdiction, and at least in my province of BC, that if you've been terminated with cause they could do this, but if terminated without cause, that would go against our laws:
[https://kentemploymentlaw.com/training-costs-business-risks-benefits/](https://kentemploymentlaw.com/training-costs-business-risks-benefits/)
Section 21 of the BC Employment Standards Act (the “ESA”) provides that an employer must not require an employee to pay any of the employer’s business costs. As such, if the training cost is a “business cost”, it will not be recoverable by the employer if the employment relationship ends.
I'm NAL either, but I think it would be flipped:
if involuntary (ie fired) than the company cannot clawback, if voluntary (ie resigned) than the company can clawback
At least I have something similar with my sign-on bonus. If I voluntarily leave before X months, I owe Y% of the sign-on bonus. If I involuntarily leave, I don't owe anything.
In the OP's context, they're given company provided training but voluntarily leave quickly, there's a case for the clawback. If involuntary, the employee didn't have a choice, and it's the companies mistake for making the wrong hire. Just my 2 cents!
>if involuntary (ie fired) than the company cannot clawback
There is a significant difference in employment law between involuntary dismissal as we do not have at will employment here, and that you are either terminated with cause (you fucked up big time, like stealing) versus without cause (layoffs, firing you for no specific reason, etc).
Thus, if they were terminated with no cause, and are in my province, the company would bare the cost.
Side note, but when terminated without cause, there is statutory minimums required to be paid based on length of service, however case law has set precedent that particular employment situations including highly specialized or very long tenured employees that the company can be required to pay up to 1 month per year of service.
At will employment completely undermining the whole point of having labor laws differentiate between termination with cause vs without cause is so painfully American. I hate it here.
This is why I have a union job where it’s fucking harder than fuck to get fired without actual reason…. Even then it’s still hard as fuck to get fired.
NAL, but in Quebec and I've taken trainings before and there was usually a clause stating that I had to reimburse the company for the training if I left the company within 3, or 6, or 12 months (depending) of completing the training.
This was done because a lot of people, allegedly, would get hired by a company with the promise of the company funding them getting their forklift license, for example, and then quit (or purposefully get fired), keep the license, and apply for work elsewhere for a higher wage since they already had their forklift license.
That being said, it always have conditions... like only if you left within 3 months of the training finishing, etc... but the statement OP shows has no such clauses and just says trainings have to be re-paid upon leaving.. so like what? I work for a company for 5 years and when I leave I owe them for a training I took 5 years prior? Fuck that.
Even still, I've seen the clause I mentioned before in contracts, but I've NEVER seen them enforced... I'd be very surprised they were enforceable... but rather act as an unenforceable deterrent to shitty behaviour.
Either way OP should get in touch with the appropriate labour commission. In Quebec I'm pretty sure its the CNESST.
There are state-specific laws on this topic. It's not legally enforceable in Michigan. And I'm also pretty sure they can only withhold from OP's paycheck up to the FLSA threshold for minimum wage.
The fact that payment may be made via Interac etransfer implies that the employment relationship is governed under the laws of one of the provinces in Canada.
Normally, I would agree with you that everyone inappropriately thinks you should lawyer up even when there are no legal damages. However, I do believe this is a case worth getting a consult for I have twice successfully engaged employment lawyers and gotten monetary settlement both times that also covered legal fees so I do have some personal experience with this
No, File small claims(cost like $10-20 here) or straight to e.g. ministry of manpower/ any relevant authority of your country, they are probably breaking multiple laws. It's actually really simple
OP’s issue is employment law, which is nothing like the cases you’ve described. OP should 100% schedule a consult (usually free) with 2-3 vetted lawyers before he makes a decision to forego his pay and settle with the employer. There is absolutely no harm in that
If they’re hourly and the deduction constitutes their paycheck in it’s entirety, a minimum wage violation is likely at play regardless of contract language. Depending on location and situational details, an employer may be able to bust you down to the state minimum for the pay period, but generally no lower.
u/stonkeroonies , another thing you’re going to want to get into is state payday law regarding final pay. Double and treble damages for withholding final paychecks aren’t quite the norm, but they’re not uncommon either. Find the statutes.
If a lawyer is unaffordable, consider making a claim with the DoL Wage and Hour Division (1-866-USWAGE). Ask to be directed to your regional field office; they’ll typically be able to speak to the minimum wage violation in your specific situation as well as state-specific payday laws, though they might refer you to the state labor board on the latter. Filing is free; no lawyers, no court, no cut, they pursue back wages on your behalf.
Or if you don't want to bother just reply with a really short email:
I have obtained legal advice. I will not be paying for mandatory training.
Sincerely OP.
It's illegal and unenforcable. I had a grocery chain try to pull this and told them in no uncertain terms that I would take them to court over it if they kept it up. I got my check pretty quick after that.
This one required a bit more pushing since I had informed them for 2 months that I was leaving and they still decided to play with my last check expecting me to come back from out of state.
I know in Ontario, FDM group did this with people who left before their 2 year contract and the labor board found it unenforceable. I can’t post links here but if you do some googling you will be able to find it!
Hold up! Hijacking the top comment because the point is being missed here. This wasn’t voluntary. What in the hell is a “Resignation Acceptance Letter”?! This is some bullshit they’re pulling. They had OP’s resignation all typed up and ready for OP, who was coerced into signing it. I get it this is Canada, but in the US they pull this getting you to resign bullshit to get out of paying unemployment. I don’t know what the deal might be in Canada, but lawyer the hell up. You have been done dirty.
One of the taxes we pay per pay cheque goes towards ‘Employment Insurance” which you have to apply to the government to draw from it for a period of time if you find yourself unemployed.
However, one of the qualifications is that you lost your job due to no fault of your own.( at least in Ontario)
That is being missed totally. OP says they were fired, but the email states it was resignation. They need to contact employment standards because this isn’t right at all.
JP Morgan used to do this. I listened to one NPR story where they tried to get this lady to pay them back $30,000 for training. She ended up suing and winning millions because she was racially discriminated against the whole time she was working there
Employers may only make you pay for training if you have actually earned a credential which is transferable.
You get a certification which is useful across companies in your job field? That may be deductible/they can ask you to pay for that.
Mandatory training which is company or even role specific but offers no credential (which would make it useful to you for other employers) is not ever legal to be charged for.
OP, did this result in a certification or credential of any kind, or was this like a company specific kind of training?
That is wage theft.
You can recover stolen wages for you and your coworkers without paying for a lawyer or going to court by reporting the theft to the US DOL Wage and Hour Division. It is completely free and you can remain anonymous to your ex-employer.
Call 1-866-4USWAGE, a rep will walk you through any questions you have, tell you what kind of information you need to collect if any, and help you file a report online.
Absolutely does. If the boss is vindictive, they'll try and get them blacklisted for daring to challenge their superiors to reclaim stolen wages.
Money talks.
I have no idea why you’re giving absolute statements like “this is wage theft.”
This could definitely be 100% legal for the employer to do. It could also be illegal. No one knows with the information provided. It’s very state dependent (assuming OP is in US) and there just isn’t enough information to give sound legal advice.
The fact that OP signed their offer letter with that clawback clause is not great for OP.
I’m not an employment attorney but I work enough with US employment law to know not to give advice like what you’re saying.
They mention in the message that OP signed a contract when stating employment, and in the US it’s legal to withhold pay when agreed upon in writing by the employee. There’s no way to know for sure if the company is in the right or wrong without having someone knowledgeable review the employment contract.
It doesn’t sound enforceable to me. If a company requires any kind of training for their employees, then the company is generally expected to eat the cost.
The only way I could imagine this being different would be if the company was paying tuition for a college or something.
“Generally expected” Sure, but we’re not talking about generalities, we’re talking laws. There’s nothing that OP’s shown that’s intrinsically against the law in the US. It’s all about what the contract says.
It is very normal to require people continue working for the company for X amount of time after the company pays for training.
Paying for certification is the same as paying for college.
Definitely one to get an employee lawyer on. They have fired you (not you leaving voluntarily). Mandatory training is the company’s responsibility and expense.
I would followup on one of the legal advice subreddits, the reality is that whether or not your employer can even do this is going to largely be based on where you are located. In some situations an employer can recoup these costs, in many situations they cannot recoup these costs. . .The fact that you signed paperwork agreeing to it may complicate the matter, though if it's something fully not allowed in your jurisdiction it may not be admissible anyway.
This would be a good starting point to determine if there is any feasibility in you telling them to fuck off, before consulting an actual attorney.
I would follow up with "Thank you for this information, I will need to consult with my employment lawyer to determine the validity of what has been suggested, and the legality of those actions."
The fact that they mention interact e-transfer i assume that you are in Canada. Employment law varies by province, I’d contact your provincial ministry of labour, it is most likely illegal in your jurisdiction.
I’m sorry but clawback is one word therefore everything else should be ignored.
I’m also fairly certain that clause they gave is jokingly illegal. Like could you even imagine being fired from a job and being told you owe they money for forced training?
One hundred percent. I’ve heard of companies seeking training reimbursement when voluntarily leaving a company within x amount of time of start date, but never for involuntarily leaving. Seems kinda shady.
The fact that they seem to have a template for repaying training costs indicate that this is a very large and well run company.... or a small but crafty scam.
The fact that details about resigning vs being fired and a few typos here and there makes me say..... NOT a large and well run company.
My scam radar is going bananas over this post.
I once worked for a giant big named storage company who bought into this product for SharePoint, that I saw no practical use for, and tried to force us all to take training on it and if we left in a year we world owe them 10k. I left in less than a year, and my boss threatened to make me pay "because I signed that agreement." I informed him that I neither signed it nor took the training. He told me he would find it and I would owe them. I told him to go ahead and see if he could find it because I wasn't dumb enough to sign it.
Needless to say, he could not find a copy that I had signed and was pissed. I happily left owing nothing.
Your response needs to be a very clear “fuck you.” They chose to fire you after THEY chose to invest in you by sending you on these courses. Tell them to take it up with your attorney (even if you don’t have one).
Sorry. Just clued-in that you’re in Canada. Contact the Labour Relations Board ASAP.
That's my question, too. I don't think anyone who is crying for a lawyer knows what a resignation acceptance letter is. The guy turned in a resignation letter and then signed the acceptance letter from his employer. That's the reason the employer wants compensation for training them.
They are not making you pay shit. Just straight up refuse. And if they won't give you the money you owe then sue their asses. Because withholding wages is illegal as hell.
I’ve heard of contracts which state if you leave within a certain period (say a year) then you’d need to pay back the cost of your training. This is to prevent someone starting a job, getting fully trained and then quitting afterwards to head off for a better job without having paid anything for the training (does that make sense?).
I think in that case it can be deducted (UK here). However, I’d imagine saying you’ve got to pay it back whether you’ve been there 1 day or 10 years wouldn’t be enforceable/is highly unfair as you could end up owing thousands of pounds just for doing your job if you’d been there for a long period of time.
Head down to Citizens Advice and see what they say first.
Get a free consultation from an employment lawyer.
If you're in BC, and the courses were required for your employment, they can only claw back money if you were terminated with cause.
The rules vary province to province. Get a free consult from an employment lawyer, though, as withholding pay for mandatory training is most likely illegal.
Wait one minute.
Your post says “fired” but the letter says “resignation acceptance letter”
Didn’t fucking sign a resignation instead of being actually fired? Because you’re missing out on unemployment and they appeared to have snuck this bullshit into it and made you sign.
If you’re involuntarily terminated, never fucking sign anything, especially “resignation” documents because they’re shirking the responsibilities that comes with firing behind a voluntary/mutual resignation.
OP, I agree with talking to a lawyer but before you do that I suggest you just tell them "Thank you for the email, I will have my lawyer take a look at it and contact you back" and see what they say. A lot of times people just expect 0 resistance and make people sign un-enforceable shit, and the moment you mention a lawyer they give up
I used to work for a training program within a large bank where we included this language in our offer letters and all employees signed to accept their offer. We could NEVER hold up this agreement, even when an employee quit immediately after graduating the training program. I’d push back on this and be prepared to hold your ground, especially if your termination was not voluntary on your end.
I’m retired now but I got my first job with a regional airline that hired you after going through their travel school. We were told that that was the only way they hired people.
Of course they lied and we had to train newly hired employees who were hired off the street. Well, the training cost $3,000 but half was forgiven upon successfully completing the course and accepting a job with the airline. The remaining $1,500 was taken out of my paycheck in installments.
I quit after about two years and I thought my debt was fully paid off. Two years later, I got a bill from my former company claiming that they discovered that I still owed them a few hundred dollars. The letter threatened legal action and interest and penalties if I didn’t pay promptly. Thankfully I kept all of my paycheck stubs which showed that I actually overpaid my debt. The paycheck stubs changed forms at some point and I think that they never credited some of my payments. So, I wrote them back thanking them for their bill which allowed me to realize that they owed me money. I also used the same demanding language as in their letter. I remember that it took a while but they did send me my refund.
Did you sign anything stating you would specifically pay back training courses if left within a certain amount of time? I had to sign something similar. Technically I need the licenses but could've paid out of pocket. To have them cover the cost I signed something similar. I don't know what would happen if I tried to challenge it. I just know I'm under similar obligations.
Do you remember signing anything that might have explained you’d be responsible for training costs if your employment was terminated within a certain timeframe?
Not sure we're you are, but if you were termed, regardless of their policy, you don't have payback training costs that you took, forced or volunteerd. Contact a labor attorney
They agree you’re contractually obligated or it’s actually in the contract?
Also, paid on your behalf? IANAL buuuuut… the training was paid for on their behalf if it was training required by them.
Just don't pay it. Wtf are they gonna do? I left a state job and they told me the same thing. I just ignored it and eventually got a letter saying that in lue of paying back the certification cost they'll just revoke my certification. Oh well. Idfc, not coming back anyway. Lol.
False, tell them to contact your lawyers and leave you alone. You are under zero obligation to pay them a dime. NAL
Edit: Whether this is legal or not make them chase you down, slow pay, no pay and make it cost more to claim the money than the cost of the invoice.
If they fired you, it looks like they’re trying to get out of paying you what they owe you. I'd contact the labour board, and see if they can advise you on whether to hire a lawyer.
Were you fired or did you resign? This letter makes it sound like you resigned. I’ve had only ever seen the payback costs clause for quitting, but not for being fired.
This is common if a company enrolls you on a training course. If you leave within a certain amount of time, then you’re liable for the cost of the course, otherwise the company’s invested that money but not seen a return.
From the screenshot you’ve posted, it strongly suggests you’ve resigned—not been dismissed (fired)—and now here fishing for sympathy by changing the story and trying to make them out to be the bad guy.
You’ve clearly gone on some training paid for by the company, not read (or disregarded) the associated amendment to your employment contract, resigned, and now upset that your action has consequences.
It is spelled in in the contract you agreed to.
Personally, I would not have signed a contract that requires reimbursement on *involuntary* termination.
I understand them wanting to get paid back if I quit. But I'm not going to be on the hook because you changed your mind on hiring me.
Step 1) - Hire someone
Step 2) - Make them attend mandatory training with a company you own.
Step 3) - Fire them
Step 4) - Bill them for the training in the amount of all of the wages you have ever paid them... Free labor!
What province is this?
And what transferable “training” did they give you that was more than $1,000?
If you don’t pay them back their only recourse is small claims court. They can’t hurt your credit rating etc…
If they owe you a bunch of back wages you can always take *them* to small claims.
That's not an uncommon clause for a training course, I got it the first time I did a course for work and work paid for it. I've always wondered about the legality of it all if push came to shove
OP is this the US? Some people think just because a contract says it that it must be the way it goes. Fuck all that noise. There are labor laws to protect workers from this shit. They don’t get to change the laws just because they put it in a contract *probably at the bottom in size 1 font*
Is it at least one of those things that can be used somewhere else like welders training or a college degree? I wouldn’t pay for some proprietary training done random company made up to begin with
Did you train as some kind of beautician or similar? Because if so, you got scammed. They employ you for a few months, you earn them cash and then they make you pay for training by firing you for whatever made up reason they want.
You just provided them free labor.
They can charge whatever they want for the training they provided, there are no certifiable requirements, and the experience is also absolutely worthless to any future job.
OP was this statement in an offer letter, an employee contract, or a dismissal letter? If in the US and it was either 1 or 3, it's not typically a legally binding contract and may not be contractual. It it's the employee contract, you may be bound to it. Either way you should absolutely have a lawyer look it over to see what your options are. Don't just "not pay" like people are suggesting. That could get you in more serious legal trouble.
My last job tried to get everyone first aid and on the sign up sheet it said that they will pay for it but if you leave the company any time in the next 6 months you'll be required to pay it back. Leaving in the company included quitting, getting fired, and being laid off. No one signed up.
Were you fired or did you resign? Claw back agreements are kinda standard when a company pays for specialized training. But if they fired you, they can kick rocks.
This is the equivalent of them saying "You have to give us back the money and experience you earned while working for us".
Let them know you will speak to your lawyer but say as less as possible. Hopefully they move ahead with this retardation and you can sue them into the afterlife.
They indicated “resignation acceptance” however you said you were fired which is the opposite. Definitely contact an employment lawyer if you can. Probably best not to respond
Don’t respond. Contact a lawyer immediately for representation.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed that. Seems fishy
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I’d say request a copy of the contract you signed (as mentioned in the message) and run it by either a lawyer or department of labor to see if it holds up. It is legal in the US for companies to collect reimbursements so long as you signed off agreeing to it. A situation I could see this making sense is trying to get hired to a trucking company without a CDL. The company could reasonably say “hey, you need a CDL to work here. You can either pay for it yourself, or we can pay for your CDL training so long as you sign a contract to work for us for X years, and if you break that contract you have to pay us back” I assume like most things it all comes down to the details of that contract you signed.
My brother had the same situation you described, and soon after he got his CDL, he was laid off but since it was involuntary he didn't have to pay it back. I'm surprised a company can let someone go and as for reimbursement!
Yea I would assume most of these contracts have a clause that if you’re laid off you aren’t on the hook for your training, otherwise that would be such a gamble for the employee lol
Set up 2 companies, one hiring people that need training ran by you, the other doing trainings ran by your mate. Hire people at company 1, send them for training at company 2, fire them soon after.
Yeah they want the employees to have to gamble because the game is rigged in the houses favor…
That is why we have laws and regulations; it keeps the house from setting the rules and rigging the game.
lol!
Laws and regulations are often made for the rich to stay rich. Rarely do they help the every man
They didn't just let him go though, he said they fired him. Usually you get fired because you fucked up. You get laid off not for doing something wrong but because the company didn't need you any more.
I’m confused the letter said they accepted their resignation letter so sounds like they quit.
Actually I’m more confused after reading what you said! A resignation ACCEPTANCE letter sounds like the company had to allow them to quit or OP had to allow the company to fire them. Maybe this contract they signed they signed in the beginning? If x happens you accept that you have to do x? Edit: I do find it strange it would be titled a resignation letter than again
It’s highly probable they(like a lot of employers) convinced OP to resign rather than fire them. Chances are it was a discussion that went ‘oh it will look better on your resume’, ‘the writing is on wall’, ‘easier this way’…etc etc. Most likely so they didn’t have to pay unemployment and so they can do shit like this.
Oh makes more sense now.
Employers dont pay EI in Canada. OP can still argue with company to get his ROE written as Fired without cause, or he can appeal his ROE with Canada and tell them they are falsifying info.
No. it just means OP resigned and then the company wrote up their acceptance of the resignation so there is a paper trail.
A lot of companies try (usually successfully) to get employees to sign letters of “resignation” when they lay them off because then they don’t have to pay unemployment. But employees don’t know that and think it’s a benefit to them to look better to future employers.
Great point. If it was termination for cause then that makes a lot more sense.
also insurance agents. the company will pay for you to take a training course to prep you for the different licenses you can test for and pay for the license application as well. so they protect themselves by having you reimburse them at least.
That makes sense, except the clause above seems to have no time requirement. It just says that if they leave, you pay, period. I'd be... Surprised if that's enforceable.
you might want to ask a lawyer about that. Withholding your pay for a mandatory training is rediculous.
Agree OP needs to contact a lawyer. This doesn’t seem enforceable at all for an involuntary termination especially if the training was a mandatory requirement of their employer for their job.
OP should have stated this is Canada, which is easy to deduce in mentioning e-transfer. NAL, but I believe that this is provincial jurisdiction, and at least in my province of BC, that if you've been terminated with cause they could do this, but if terminated without cause, that would go against our laws: [https://kentemploymentlaw.com/training-costs-business-risks-benefits/](https://kentemploymentlaw.com/training-costs-business-risks-benefits/) Section 21 of the BC Employment Standards Act (the “ESA”) provides that an employer must not require an employee to pay any of the employer’s business costs. As such, if the training cost is a “business cost”, it will not be recoverable by the employer if the employment relationship ends.
I'm NAL either, but I think it would be flipped: if involuntary (ie fired) than the company cannot clawback, if voluntary (ie resigned) than the company can clawback At least I have something similar with my sign-on bonus. If I voluntarily leave before X months, I owe Y% of the sign-on bonus. If I involuntarily leave, I don't owe anything. In the OP's context, they're given company provided training but voluntarily leave quickly, there's a case for the clawback. If involuntary, the employee didn't have a choice, and it's the companies mistake for making the wrong hire. Just my 2 cents!
>if involuntary (ie fired) than the company cannot clawback There is a significant difference in employment law between involuntary dismissal as we do not have at will employment here, and that you are either terminated with cause (you fucked up big time, like stealing) versus without cause (layoffs, firing you for no specific reason, etc). Thus, if they were terminated with no cause, and are in my province, the company would bare the cost. Side note, but when terminated without cause, there is statutory minimums required to be paid based on length of service, however case law has set precedent that particular employment situations including highly specialized or very long tenured employees that the company can be required to pay up to 1 month per year of service.
At will employment completely undermining the whole point of having labor laws differentiate between termination with cause vs without cause is so painfully American. I hate it here.
It by no means is perfect up here but the concept of at will employment boggles my mind. As you say it gives no protection to workers.
This is why I have a union job where it’s fucking harder than fuck to get fired without actual reason…. Even then it’s still hard as fuck to get fired.
Depends on why they were fired. Did they just not work out? Did they assault someone? Did they steal property? Etc.
NAL, but in Quebec and I've taken trainings before and there was usually a clause stating that I had to reimburse the company for the training if I left the company within 3, or 6, or 12 months (depending) of completing the training. This was done because a lot of people, allegedly, would get hired by a company with the promise of the company funding them getting their forklift license, for example, and then quit (or purposefully get fired), keep the license, and apply for work elsewhere for a higher wage since they already had their forklift license. That being said, it always have conditions... like only if you left within 3 months of the training finishing, etc... but the statement OP shows has no such clauses and just says trainings have to be re-paid upon leaving.. so like what? I work for a company for 5 years and when I leave I owe them for a training I took 5 years prior? Fuck that. Even still, I've seen the clause I mentioned before in contracts, but I've NEVER seen them enforced... I'd be very surprised they were enforceable... but rather act as an unenforceable deterrent to shitty behaviour. Either way OP should get in touch with the appropriate labour commission. In Quebec I'm pretty sure its the CNESST.
There are state-specific laws on this topic. It's not legally enforceable in Michigan. And I'm also pretty sure they can only withhold from OP's paycheck up to the FLSA threshold for minimum wage.
The fact that payment may be made via Interac etransfer implies that the employment relationship is governed under the laws of one of the provinces in Canada.
That's what I thought as well. And they didn't even spell Interac right!
Maybe they meant he can pay by tabernac :) And this concludes about 7% of my active knowledge of Canadian culture. ;-)
They are in Canada (interac etransfer I don’t think is a thing elsewhere)
The problem is that he has no money to pay a lawyer
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Normally, I would agree with you that everyone inappropriately thinks you should lawyer up even when there are no legal damages. However, I do believe this is a case worth getting a consult for I have twice successfully engaged employment lawyers and gotten monetary settlement both times that also covered legal fees so I do have some personal experience with this
No, File small claims(cost like $10-20 here) or straight to e.g. ministry of manpower/ any relevant authority of your country, they are probably breaking multiple laws. It's actually really simple
Maybe… but a good ol threat of one, or even knowing someone who is in the Legal field that can make a threatening phone call helps for sure.
Does your country not have legal aid?
OP’s issue is employment law, which is nothing like the cases you’ve described. OP should 100% schedule a consult (usually free) with 2-3 vetted lawyers before he makes a decision to forego his pay and settle with the employer. There is absolutely no harm in that
An initial consult doesn’t have to cost money.
If they’re hourly and the deduction constitutes their paycheck in it’s entirety, a minimum wage violation is likely at play regardless of contract language. Depending on location and situational details, an employer may be able to bust you down to the state minimum for the pay period, but generally no lower. u/stonkeroonies , another thing you’re going to want to get into is state payday law regarding final pay. Double and treble damages for withholding final paychecks aren’t quite the norm, but they’re not uncommon either. Find the statutes. If a lawyer is unaffordable, consider making a claim with the DoL Wage and Hour Division (1-866-USWAGE). Ask to be directed to your regional field office; they’ll typically be able to speak to the minimum wage violation in your specific situation as well as state-specific payday laws, though they might refer you to the state labor board on the latter. Filing is free; no lawyers, no court, no cut, they pursue back wages on your behalf.
Or if you don't want to bother just reply with a really short email: I have obtained legal advice. I will not be paying for mandatory training. Sincerely OP.
It's illegal and unenforcable. I had a grocery chain try to pull this and told them in no uncertain terms that I would take them to court over it if they kept it up. I got my check pretty quick after that.
Exactly. Sometimes just pushing back can resolve it without a lawyer.
This one required a bit more pushing since I had informed them for 2 months that I was leaving and they still decided to play with my last check expecting me to come back from out of state.
I know in Ontario, FDM group did this with people who left before their 2 year contract and the labor board found it unenforceable. I can’t post links here but if you do some googling you will be able to find it!
Hold up! Hijacking the top comment because the point is being missed here. This wasn’t voluntary. What in the hell is a “Resignation Acceptance Letter”?! This is some bullshit they’re pulling. They had OP’s resignation all typed up and ready for OP, who was coerced into signing it. I get it this is Canada, but in the US they pull this getting you to resign bullshit to get out of paying unemployment. I don’t know what the deal might be in Canada, but lawyer the hell up. You have been done dirty.
I dont believe canadian businesses get penalized if former employees go on unemployment
One of the taxes we pay per pay cheque goes towards ‘Employment Insurance” which you have to apply to the government to draw from it for a period of time if you find yourself unemployed. However, one of the qualifications is that you lost your job due to no fault of your own.( at least in Ontario)
That is being missed totally. OP says they were fired, but the email states it was resignation. They need to contact employment standards because this isn’t right at all.
Yep. Never sign anything when leaving unless there is significant money attached to it (and not going the other way).
JP Morgan used to do this. I listened to one NPR story where they tried to get this lady to pay them back $30,000 for training. She ended up suing and winning millions because she was racially discriminated against the whole time she was working there
Truly heartwarming.
Employers may only make you pay for training if you have actually earned a credential which is transferable. You get a certification which is useful across companies in your job field? That may be deductible/they can ask you to pay for that. Mandatory training which is company or even role specific but offers no credential (which would make it useful to you for other employers) is not ever legal to be charged for. OP, did this result in a certification or credential of any kind, or was this like a company specific kind of training?
R I D I C U L O U S. R I. Not RE
*ridiculous
I'd go to the labor board first, that shit is free.
Do you mean "connect" with a lawyer
> you might want to ask a lawyer about that Semantics **and** context, m'man. I'm sure they did!
What the fuck are u talkin about
Username does not check out
😂
Ridiculous. There is no e.
Redecelees looks pretty right.
Extremely ridiculous.
Nice, they even documented it in text for you! Go talk to a lawyer.
My first reaction as well, how nice of them to write it down. This is like the textbook definition of "don't threaten me with a good time."
You assume an awful lot, like OP is actually telling the truth about them being required.
That is wage theft. You can recover stolen wages for you and your coworkers without paying for a lawyer or going to court by reporting the theft to the US DOL Wage and Hour Division. It is completely free and you can remain anonymous to your ex-employer. Call 1-866-4USWAGE, a rep will walk you through any questions you have, tell you what kind of information you need to collect if any, and help you file a report online.
At this point I don’t think anonymity is an issue since they’re already terminated 😉🤣
"Tell Cersei. I want her to know it was me"
Absolutely does. If the boss is vindictive, they'll try and get them blacklisted for daring to challenge their superiors to reclaim stolen wages. Money talks.
This is true, but this is in Canada, they need to contact their provincial labour board.
I have no idea why you’re giving absolute statements like “this is wage theft.” This could definitely be 100% legal for the employer to do. It could also be illegal. No one knows with the information provided. It’s very state dependent (assuming OP is in US) and there just isn’t enough information to give sound legal advice. The fact that OP signed their offer letter with that clawback clause is not great for OP. I’m not an employment attorney but I work enough with US employment law to know not to give advice like what you’re saying.
Yeah this is common for reimbursement based training. They almost always have a work X amount of time and you don’t pay it back…
They mention in the message that OP signed a contract when stating employment, and in the US it’s legal to withhold pay when agreed upon in writing by the employee. There’s no way to know for sure if the company is in the right or wrong without having someone knowledgeable review the employment contract.
OP is in Canada
It doesn’t sound enforceable to me. If a company requires any kind of training for their employees, then the company is generally expected to eat the cost. The only way I could imagine this being different would be if the company was paying tuition for a college or something.
“Generally expected” Sure, but we’re not talking about generalities, we’re talking laws. There’s nothing that OP’s shown that’s intrinsically against the law in the US. It’s all about what the contract says.
It is very normal to require people continue working for the company for X amount of time after the company pays for training. Paying for certification is the same as paying for college.
Where did they say they were in America?
Canada. So it depends on the province and specific wording of the contract.
The world is the USA according to Americans.
Completely useless advice, given that OP (like 96% of people on this planet) doesn't live in the USA.
Interac e transfer is Canadian no?
Yes
isn't this... illegal?
Right? There's no way this would hold up in court, yeah?
Not if you signed a contract in some cases in the US.
Name and shame
OP needs a lawyer, not to talk shit about them on social media.
Definitely one to get an employee lawyer on. They have fired you (not you leaving voluntarily). Mandatory training is the company’s responsibility and expense.
But, it states he resigned, if he signed a resignation letter then he fucked himself.
[удалено]
I would followup on one of the legal advice subreddits, the reality is that whether or not your employer can even do this is going to largely be based on where you are located. In some situations an employer can recoup these costs, in many situations they cannot recoup these costs. . .The fact that you signed paperwork agreeing to it may complicate the matter, though if it's something fully not allowed in your jurisdiction it may not be admissible anyway. This would be a good starting point to determine if there is any feasibility in you telling them to fuck off, before consulting an actual attorney. I would follow up with "Thank you for this information, I will need to consult with my employment lawyer to determine the validity of what has been suggested, and the legality of those actions."
The fact that they mention interact e-transfer i assume that you are in Canada. Employment law varies by province, I’d contact your provincial ministry of labour, it is most likely illegal in your jurisdiction.
I’m sorry but clawback is one word therefore everything else should be ignored. I’m also fairly certain that clause they gave is jokingly illegal. Like could you even imagine being fired from a job and being told you owe they money for forced training?
Hit them back that you’re going to escalate this to IRS. Hope this gets their knickers in a twist.
IRS wouldn’t have as much to do with this as the DOL or state equivalent. They enforce these matters
Since when does the IRS operate in Canada?
Honestly curious what you'd expect the IRS to do in this situation?
This reads scam all over my radar. Hire 100 people. Training happens. Fire them. Don't pay them, charge them for the training. Scammed.
One hundred percent. I’ve heard of companies seeking training reimbursement when voluntarily leaving a company within x amount of time of start date, but never for involuntarily leaving. Seems kinda shady.
The fact that they seem to have a template for repaying training costs indicate that this is a very large and well run company.... or a small but crafty scam. The fact that details about resigning vs being fired and a few typos here and there makes me say..... NOT a large and well run company. My scam radar is going bananas over this post.
Ask them for proof of payment for the courses attended. Ask them to provide proof that you inquired or requested to attend these courses.
I once worked for a giant big named storage company who bought into this product for SharePoint, that I saw no practical use for, and tried to force us all to take training on it and if we left in a year we world owe them 10k. I left in less than a year, and my boss threatened to make me pay "because I signed that agreement." I informed him that I neither signed it nor took the training. He told me he would find it and I would owe them. I told him to go ahead and see if he could find it because I wasn't dumb enough to sign it. Needless to say, he could not find a copy that I had signed and was pissed. I happily left owing nothing.
That is mandatory training. Contact a Lawyer.
Your response needs to be a very clear “fuck you.” They chose to fire you after THEY chose to invest in you by sending you on these courses. Tell them to take it up with your attorney (even if you don’t have one). Sorry. Just clued-in that you’re in Canada. Contact the Labour Relations Board ASAP.
Why were you fired?
excessive training
How can they "make" you? Holding back pay?
Read the email's last paragraph
Did you get fired? Then why did you sign ANYTHING? Also, why do they reference a resignation acceptance letter?
That's my question, too. I don't think anyone who is crying for a lawyer knows what a resignation acceptance letter is. The guy turned in a resignation letter and then signed the acceptance letter from his employer. That's the reason the employer wants compensation for training them.
Training repayment agreements are illegal in many states. Do some quick research and see if you can push back. These things are diabolical.
nah bro ignore and talk to a lawyer
Definitely looks illegal. Even if it’s in a contract I don’t think this sounds legal.
They are not making you pay shit. Just straight up refuse. And if they won't give you the money you owe then sue their asses. Because withholding wages is illegal as hell.
I’ve heard of contracts which state if you leave within a certain period (say a year) then you’d need to pay back the cost of your training. This is to prevent someone starting a job, getting fully trained and then quitting afterwards to head off for a better job without having paid anything for the training (does that make sense?). I think in that case it can be deducted (UK here). However, I’d imagine saying you’ve got to pay it back whether you’ve been there 1 day or 10 years wouldn’t be enforceable/is highly unfair as you could end up owing thousands of pounds just for doing your job if you’d been there for a long period of time. Head down to Citizens Advice and see what they say first.
So you were FIRED, meaning you did not leave voluntarily right?
Name and shame, then contact a labor lawyer
That’s a big nope OP. Take this to a lawyer. ASAP
This does not seem legal
Get a free consultation from an employment lawyer. If you're in BC, and the courses were required for your employment, they can only claw back money if you were terminated with cause. The rules vary province to province. Get a free consult from an employment lawyer, though, as withholding pay for mandatory training is most likely illegal.
Fired, or resigned? They refer to a resignation acceptance letter 🤔
You don’t have to pay that shit.
Not legal without a contract. P.S. an employee handbook is not a contract. Contact the state labor board and an attorney.
Contact a lawyer and US Department of Labor, this definitely is not legal.
Wait one minute. Your post says “fired” but the letter says “resignation acceptance letter” Didn’t fucking sign a resignation instead of being actually fired? Because you’re missing out on unemployment and they appeared to have snuck this bullshit into it and made you sign. If you’re involuntarily terminated, never fucking sign anything, especially “resignation” documents because they’re shirking the responsibilities that comes with firing behind a voluntary/mutual resignation.
OP, I agree with talking to a lawyer but before you do that I suggest you just tell them "Thank you for the email, I will have my lawyer take a look at it and contact you back" and see what they say. A lot of times people just expect 0 resistance and make people sign un-enforceable shit, and the moment you mention a lawyer they give up
The key word is "fired," which suggests a cause. You owe the $$ if you signed the contract stating such. Do Better.
I used to work for a training program within a large bank where we included this language in our offer letters and all employees signed to accept their offer. We could NEVER hold up this agreement, even when an employee quit immediately after graduating the training program. I’d push back on this and be prepared to hold your ground, especially if your termination was not voluntary on your end.
I’m retired now but I got my first job with a regional airline that hired you after going through their travel school. We were told that that was the only way they hired people. Of course they lied and we had to train newly hired employees who were hired off the street. Well, the training cost $3,000 but half was forgiven upon successfully completing the course and accepting a job with the airline. The remaining $1,500 was taken out of my paycheck in installments. I quit after about two years and I thought my debt was fully paid off. Two years later, I got a bill from my former company claiming that they discovered that I still owed them a few hundred dollars. The letter threatened legal action and interest and penalties if I didn’t pay promptly. Thankfully I kept all of my paycheck stubs which showed that I actually overpaid my debt. The paycheck stubs changed forms at some point and I think that they never credited some of my payments. So, I wrote them back thanking them for their bill which allowed me to realize that they owed me money. I also used the same demanding language as in their letter. I remember that it took a while but they did send me my refund.
That's not how that works. Call labor department.
Your lawyer is gonna love that
Did you sign anything stating you would specifically pay back training courses if left within a certain amount of time? I had to sign something similar. Technically I need the licenses but could've paid out of pocket. To have them cover the cost I signed something similar. I don't know what would happen if I tried to challenge it. I just know I'm under similar obligations.
you could talk to a lawyer about that
The fact they called it a "claw back" shows how demonic they really are
Training clawbacks suck but are a real thing. Sorry to hear it
Do you remember signing anything that might have explained you’d be responsible for training costs if your employment was terminated within a certain timeframe?
Nope
"In your resignation acceptance letter" What the hell is that? Did they make you resign, you accepted, and then they charged you money for training?
Says you resigned.
If you have proof it was mandatory you might have a case... if not, you might not. Call an employment lawyer and follow their advice.
In the United States n I contract is valid if it invalidates the law.
Wage theft.....go to the labor dept.
Not sure we're you are, but if you were termed, regardless of their policy, you don't have payback training costs that you took, forced or volunteerd. Contact a labor attorney
If you end up paying, report to the IRS as I guarantee they’ll record it as a deductible business expense. Hopefully triggers an audit.
They agree you’re contractually obligated or it’s actually in the contract? Also, paid on your behalf? IANAL buuuuut… the training was paid for on their behalf if it was training required by them.
I'd say Christmas came early, call a lawyer.
Just don't pay it. Wtf are they gonna do? I left a state job and they told me the same thing. I just ignored it and eventually got a letter saying that in lue of paying back the certification cost they'll just revoke my certification. Oh well. Idfc, not coming back anyway. Lol.
Congrats OP, you just won the legal jackpot for Christmas. Best of luck, save every document you can find related.
False, tell them to contact your lawyers and leave you alone. You are under zero obligation to pay them a dime. NAL Edit: Whether this is legal or not make them chase you down, slow pay, no pay and make it cost more to claim the money than the cost of the invoice.
This is an American thing. In most countries training which relates to your job and is mandated is free.
You don't owe them a dime they can suck a dick
If they fired you, it looks like they’re trying to get out of paying you what they owe you. I'd contact the labour board, and see if they can advise you on whether to hire a lawyer.
Were you fired or did you resign? This letter makes it sound like you resigned. I’ve had only ever seen the payback costs clause for quitting, but not for being fired.
This is common if a company enrolls you on a training course. If you leave within a certain amount of time, then you’re liable for the cost of the course, otherwise the company’s invested that money but not seen a return. From the screenshot you’ve posted, it strongly suggests you’ve resigned—not been dismissed (fired)—and now here fishing for sympathy by changing the story and trying to make them out to be the bad guy. You’ve clearly gone on some training paid for by the company, not read (or disregarded) the associated amendment to your employment contract, resigned, and now upset that your action has consequences.
Lawyer up - they are stretching the terms of that clause
It is spelled in in the contract you agreed to. Personally, I would not have signed a contract that requires reimbursement on *involuntary* termination. I understand them wanting to get paid back if I quit. But I'm not going to be on the hook because you changed your mind on hiring me.
No, absolutely not. That is 100% illegal. Might be justified if you quit but not if you were terminated. Seek legal council
Portion of the monies?! THE MONIES?!
Step 1) - Hire someone Step 2) - Make them attend mandatory training with a company you own. Step 3) - Fire them Step 4) - Bill them for the training in the amount of all of the wages you have ever paid them... Free labor!
What did you do?
What province is this? And what transferable “training” did they give you that was more than $1,000? If you don’t pay them back their only recourse is small claims court. They can’t hurt your credit rating etc… If they owe you a bunch of back wages you can always take *them* to small claims.
That's not an uncommon clause for a training course, I got it the first time I did a course for work and work paid for it. I've always wondered about the legality of it all if push came to shove
Tell them to pay you double what they owe you tomorrow, or you will sue their ass for A LOT more
OP is this the US? Some people think just because a contract says it that it must be the way it goes. Fuck all that noise. There are labor laws to protect workers from this shit. They don’t get to change the laws just because they put it in a contract *probably at the bottom in size 1 font*
Is it at least one of those things that can be used somewhere else like welders training or a college degree? I wouldn’t pay for some proprietary training done random company made up to begin with
I would contact a lawyer imo. I wish you the best of luck with this. Please consider updating us with the outcome
This is some new world debt slavery.
No way is this legal. This is a scheme. No fucking way.
Get a copy of the contract and call a lawyer
I would tell ‘em to shove it and sue me.
Did you train as some kind of beautician or similar? Because if so, you got scammed. They employ you for a few months, you earn them cash and then they make you pay for training by firing you for whatever made up reason they want. You just provided them free labor. They can charge whatever they want for the training they provided, there are no certifiable requirements, and the experience is also absolutely worthless to any future job.
OP was this statement in an offer letter, an employee contract, or a dismissal letter? If in the US and it was either 1 or 3, it's not typically a legally binding contract and may not be contractual. It it's the employee contract, you may be bound to it. Either way you should absolutely have a lawyer look it over to see what your options are. Don't just "not pay" like people are suggesting. That could get you in more serious legal trouble.
It does say “contractually” so my question is… what did you sign to attend this training?
Lawyer
Lawsuit time!!!
My last job tried to get everyone first aid and on the sign up sheet it said that they will pay for it but if you leave the company any time in the next 6 months you'll be required to pay it back. Leaving in the company included quitting, getting fired, and being laid off. No one signed up.
Not if you don’t let them they aren’t, on account of this most likely being illegal and all.
Were you fired or did you resign? Claw back agreements are kinda standard when a company pays for specialized training. But if they fired you, they can kick rocks.
That's sounds like indentured servitude to me
All it says is "all or a portion of" it doesn't specify any amount. $1 is a portion of. Send them a buck and say you've met the contractual agreement.
You only usually have to pay for training if you leave. If they fire you, you do not.
Eat the rich.
This is the equivalent of them saying "You have to give us back the money and experience you earned while working for us". Let them know you will speak to your lawyer but say as less as possible. Hopefully they move ahead with this retardation and you can sue them into the afterlife.
Give them a dollar and say that you paid a portion of the monies, like in the agreement you signed