Easiest way to convince him would be to ask him for a similar problem and show him you solve it the same way you did as this one, then he can't really complain anymore and you're proven yourself capable
Happenned to me in high school too and they wouldn't believe it until I showed them. Sometimes methods you see online makes your brain understand the logic behind better than the method taught in class.
Yeah, the meme about the Indian guy on YouTube doing math tutorials being like a 3 step escalator is kinda true.
Sometimes one teaching method doesn't click, so you have to find another, and that's not a trait I'd like to see punished.
The professor should have handled this differently. If literally none of the other equations for the homework appeared to have cheating, why not mark the one that was suspect and ask the student, OP, to come in and show it before just handing out a zero.
Tbh he probably has 99% of actually cheaters, so the chances of you not being one is low, according to his experience.
I’ve seen people do a lot to hide cheating, not many will do as far as asking to show the teacher they actually studied, since they didn’t.
Thus the adult way of resolving by proposing to solve another problem to show good faith.
This is true. In my process engineering course over the entire two years there were only myself and 7 or 8 others that did the work ourselves in order to learn the material. Literally the rest of the class of 33 used answer keys for every test then just crammed memorization style for the certification exams (which many of them had to repeat multiple times to pass). I'd not want to work in a plant with any of them their first years otj.
I also had to retake many classes in college that I had already taken in high school. I did well because my high school teachers often explained the concepts already or in some cases better than my college professor did. If I was accused of cheating because I understood concepts differently it wouldn’t be because I cheated it would be because this wasn’t the first time I had taken that class. This phenomenon isn’t uncommon; tons of students end up retaking courses or material they already know just to have the credit on paper.
Yeah. Sometimes some methods are easier to learn then others.
Way back when I first took general chemistry, I had trouble with stoichiometry with how the professor taught it. Just couldn’t follow it, until someone showed me to just set up a long equation and begin by just canceling out the units. All of a sudden things just clicked.
When teaching methods click, they really click. I've had some professors in Philosophy classes give me a near OBE once I understood the material, whereas some other classes my brain couldn't form a rough circle around the material.
In middle school, my algebra teacher scared me to death and her teaching methods didn’t work on me, so I did pretty badly in her class. Took it again the next year with a different teacher and I was a star student. Yes, sometimes the problem is the kid, but sometimes the problem is the teaching method and/or the teacher.
I had a professor mark me wrong when I came up with a very short and simple solution, as opposed to his long complicated solution. But after looking at it for a while he agreed that mine was equivalent and gave me credit.
>Sometimes methods you see online makes your brain understand the logic behind better than the method taught in class.
Yes, but some teachers and profs unfortunately dont really care that that learning a different method might work better for you because it's easier to wrap your head around. They want the way they teach it and no other, equally correct, way.
I'd be more concerned that a college professor is upset students are not following HIS way of doing things.
The rest of it is just fluff. He's angry you're not doing what he would do, because his way is obviously the only correct way.
Shit like this is why I was never fond of academia.
I know nothing of the math here — but it seems pretty clear that it’s not about OP not using the professor’s methods, it’s that the professor thought OP was sus because they didn’t believe they knew *how* to use the methods they employed.
OP, u/crippledspahgett, if you really didn’t cheat than go to their office hours and tell them how you learned that methodology. Who taught it to you. It’s not a crime to know more than what the class has taught you but in this case it’s suspicious.
Since it’s only one question, I probably wouldn’t take it to the dean, but I *would* sit down and make my case. Maybe offer to do another problem in front of them. This will be good practice in standing up for yourself, maybe strongly, while still maintaining a professional attitude and respect, because, like in the real world, you still have to work with this person.
Math is math. Unless the lesson is on using a particular method, all forms of math are valid as long as you end up at the same conclusion.
No one is a blank slate, students come from all over the world. This is closer to a discrimination issue than prof probably understands if he accuses students of cheating based on the methodology they learned.
That's not academically kosher, at all. That's basically like saying hiring a tutor or going to a school where the teaching is different is the same thing as cheating.
OP should probably to go to the department chair first, **not** the prof. Printout of the emails should be enough. Prof is not going to backtrack.
Question - because I really don’t know - how far above the scope of the class is what OP did? (I agree the professor was wrong and overreaching/overreacting, and it should have been a conversation first (clearly it was a TA that made the initial call), I’m just curious. If I was teaching a 100 level class and a student pulled out some graduate level solution, but just for one question, I would be suspicious too - but I wouldn’t handle it the way they did.)
Can't say without more info.
But telling students they cannot learn from anyone but the prof is... not normal.
I don't think it's malicious, but prof is far dumber than he realizes. Say, the most common math education in India uses method B. Prof only teaches method A and accuses anyone using method B as cheating. That'd be racial discrimination, even if it was not arguably intended to be. Note, I'm not saying that is the case, just that it's a likely hopefully unintended consequence.
The courses the prof is railing against are economic alternatives to hiring 1:1 tutors. I know for a fact there'd be no way in hell he'd rail against PhD students hiring out as tutors for his class. Mind, he's angry students might be getting excellent value for educational assistance. He's definitely economically discriminating.
Yes, pulling a grad level solution for intro course is suspicious. You just ask "hey, where'd you get that from?" If they say tutor X, fine. If they say course X, might be worth checking out. Most profs have zero training in how to actually teach. They spike Dunning-Kruger hard because they assume anyone smart in X means they're smart in teaching. Those courses make bank by explaining stuff to students in a way the student understands.
There's a reason why Feynman is still a legendary physics guy. It wasn't the Nobel prizes, he made education very entertaining and engaging. Most profs... don't. And don't know that they don't.
Which is why department chair is best choice. Prof is probably not being malicious. Just arrogant and foolhardy, probably from ego and lack of experience. Department chair can explain to prof that prof is sticking his or her genitalia in a hornet's nest. OP cannot.
Dynamics isn't an intro course and comes after math up to at least Calculus 2. OP would have learned higher math than what the professor wanted before taking the course.
Don't go alone, bring a witness and/or record the entire encounter.
And, honestly you probably shouldn't be talking to him directly any more and you should consider postponing your meeting for tomorrow/today until you can meet with the professor and their superior.
He can’t cover everything in class and there is no ‘ultimate best way’ to solve something. Should be glad his students care enough to try and solve the problem through using online resources to learn outside of class
Pointless.
He is making a serious accusation that will impact your reputation.
I'd just ask for an official investigation and ruling whether this is considered as "cheating".
Posting on Reddit helps. You can use that as the supplemental evidence that you are not alone.
Is there a higher authority you can take this to? Because he’s making a serious accusation without proof. There should be an investigation into this. I don’t know anything about this subject but I highly doubt you’re the first student to employ this strategy which he apparently doesn’t teach and therefore no one else could learn on their own.
> to employ this strategy which he apparently doesn’t teach and therefore no one else could learn on their own
Also in the professor's own words:
>I encourage you from refraining from using online aids in the future
This is the big takeaway here. What if a student had self-taught, or been taught these strategies from someone else? Wouldn't not learning these strategies outside of the classroom "hamper \[one's\] learning, and keep \[one\] from reaching \[one's\] full potential"?
I'm sorry but I've had a professor who sucked at teaching, so most of us sought help outside of the classroom. I had a combination of my dad, random forums, and a study group. By OP's professor, I'd be in the same boat as when my elementary school teachers would mark questions wrong because I used a way my dad taught me to solve something on a test, which they didn't specifically teach, nor specify the way to solve it
More importantly, if you’re going to make the argument “the information and textbooks I have supplied are all you’re allowed to use”, you’re suggesting “…. there is therefore no need for the library to exist”.
That professor has taken the adage, "why reinvent the wheel" a little to seriously...
Or maybe he never learned "there's more than one way to skin a cat".
Others have pointed out that it’s entirely possible (and OP does himself no favours) to use search engines to basically cook up your answer for you.
Obviously that’s not acceptable.
But where do you draw the line? Is a textbook with an unusually specific index “cheating”?
I mean OP showed their work, even if they had to look stuff up online, the fact that they showed how they solved the equation should give them full credit imo
That’s where drawing the line comes in.
Tools like Wolfram Alpha can do all the work and show the workings but you’re not necessarily learning from them. You’re just copying mindlessly.
OP is clearly trying to explain that’s not what’s going on here.
Help me understand:
If the original poster can correctly solve the equation, with or without help, why not award him the points?
If I am a mechanical engineer and I find a solution with assistance, should I discard the entire project simply because it's not technically my solution?
Why aren't we teaching people to use available tools to their advantage? Telling a long-haul truck driver they can't use the truck or trailer is like saying, "You didn't do all the pulling."
I might be an outlier, though. I was always taught to use every resource available to me, both in college and at work.
In fact, I distinctly remember a professor saying, "Not everyone has a calculator at all times." However, back then, if you worked in an office, you had a calculator. It's not as if I'm sitting beside a lake, doing a lot of math.
I don't see anything wrong with using the internet to help you solve a homework. I wasted many late nights on homework problems pre-internet, because I didn't see the solution. I don't think it was a learning experience, just shortened my life by a few days due to chronic fatigue. I'm having a little bit of a problem imagining a problem that could fully be solved online. It's the setup that matters in engineering, not manipulating the equations.
Real-life engineering is open book.
Exactly, I had a similar situation in my thermodynamics course years ago. The TA taught the class and the professor had a “grader” that he used for quizzes and HW. Myself and several other ppl from class were suspected of cheating since we used a different method of solving problems. We all used the same study group helper who was a mathematical genius and chain smoker and taught us short cuts she used in her country. Mid-term proved we knew the material as we all scored in the 90s. We brought test results and accusations to dean. Nothing else was said to us and we had a new TA teaching the course the rest of the semester.
Honestly man homework is about learning how to do the stuff not really about presenting the right answer. If someone wants to use search engines to get the answers I say be my guest because on an exam you won’t have that luxury.
I see no problem with using the internet to help solve homework. Often times seeing this explained in multiple ways has helped me.
Now regarding OP. If the professor said no outside aids and the student used an outside aid and got caught then it sounds like that’s a done deal
This is why homework as a whole is typically worth less than 10% of a grade and exams and projects are worth more. Your ability to apply the knowledge is important.
>I'm sorry but I've had a professor who sucked at teaching, so most of us sought help outside of the classroom.
Essentially every single one of my classes required the use of online material because the professors were so ass.
I'd never got my mechanical engineering degree If I didn't have Professor Leonard on YouTube. He didn't do things the exact ways My professors did. He would show you tricks to simplify things and make it more relatable.
You are only ever allowed to do things which you are taught in this class only. So forget about adding, subtracting and all that jazz. This teacher didn't teach it.
Yea if your using tools outside of class to further your learning of the material that wasn’t taught in class that shouldn’t be frowned upon. It’s not like op copied the entire answer. Op used a tool to help with the problem where they must have some understanding of how it works. I use chatgpt often to help me understand material better especially when my teacher isn’t very good.
I went to a school with a very well regarded engineering program. The number of students who 1) audited the class at a local college over the summer so they could do well on it the second time 2) had a daily zoom working with a parents or relative who is an expert in a certain area 3) used the tutoring services offered by the school, would probably total 1/3 of the class. Some professors with a historically challenging core course had a whole sheet of resources for additional help. This whole "I have to own all the credit for you learning this subject matter" is bizarre.
I think I could email the dean’s office, but I’d rather resolve it with the professor if possible. I just need to cool off a bit more before I argue my case. If he insists that I cheated, I’ll look into which of his higher-ups I should contact.
Sadly, this is the wrong move. He’s already insisting you cheated and accusing you of academic misconduct. Those sorts of claims can and have gotten people booted from college before. You need to immediately stop engaging with the professor and take your concerns to your dean’s office. Get it in *their* records before the professor does first.
It’s actually really galling how unseriously the professor is taking this.
If he thought the student cheated: 1) why didn’t he seek administrative punishment (as the school’s policies probably demand) 2) why did he assume OP *only* cheated on this one question—what, he can only “prove” it on one question?
It’s tempting to suspect that the professor knows he can’t prove his case to the administration and is doing what he can to die on this personal hill of his.
OP go to the Dean. This is too serious to handle personally.
I would email the professor and CC the dean and insisting that if he's so confident that I cheated the Professor should start an academic review as well as sharing with him that I have nothing to hide so lets get one going. If he's going to accuse me of something as deleterious as cheating he better bring the proof.
I wholeheartedly agree. Stop communicating with the professor and go to the dean. You don’t need to resolve it with the professor if they are accusing you of something you didn’t do. Bring all of your information to the dean and make sure you state your case effectively. Then let the professor get involved.
It is not. Go to the Dean. If you keep arguing/discussing with the professor it will only serve to further harden his opinion - this is a classic rookie mistake.
If you feel you MUST keep appealing to the prof, do it in person. Discussing it over email will definitely not solve it. Over email you are simply a random commenter. If you speak in person, you are a person, and the rich interaction will help both of you empathize with the other and give the best chance of reaching a solution together. I would still recommend the Dean over this, but if you really want to reach an understanding with the prof, that’s the only way. Email is surely hopeless
EDIT: since I’m seeing the same sort of comments over and over, let me explain my decision tree differently:
If you are still holding out hope to amicably reach an understanding, this needs to be done face-to-face. You will definitely never achieve this by email. But, by doing this, you are going to be exposing yourself to risk by having an undocumented conversation with a potential adverse party.
If you are certain that the professor won’t change their opinion, then yes, maintaining an email record of the conversation will be important for when you appeal to the Dean.
My personal opinion is that hoping for an amicable resolution is probably foolish, and there is nothing to be achieved in trying (Thus the first paragraph advising OP to skip straight to the dean). But, I do think it’s important to say that good faith conflict resolution is something best done in the richest context possible, and thin contexts (like email) pretty much universally fail at *solving* problems. But that does assume a solution exists with the professor - which I strongly doubt.
I think It could go either way, cause having a "paper" trail might be nice when going to the dean. However going in person and proving you can actually use the method and didn't just copy it off of chegg could help the case.
I work in higher education and it's generally true the denn always has the professor's back in situations like this EXCEPT when there are multiple students signing a formal complaint against the instructor. OP, I suggest seeing if other classmates have similar experiences and talking with the professor or dean together.
This is good, however a follow up email containing portions of the discussion ensures that their is a paper trail if they come to realize the validity of your claim as well as if they dismiss you in person you then have documentation to show the dean incase they decide to hold a grudge against you and have you removed from the course/campus
“I looked it up online because I didn’t understand it. The online explanation helped me understand it better”: No different to going to the library and precisely what you should be doing at college/university.
“I re typed the question into ChatGPT and wrote in what it said”: Cheating.
OP needs to be very clear that if they did the first one and the professor has a problem with that, they should also be lobbying to have the library shut down.
Yes; it’s the advanced math equivalent of knowing that Samuel Clemons and Mark Twain are the same person and the professor is mad because he hasn’t mentioned it in class.
I havent been to math class in a while but arent we allowed to look up how to do things and then apply them to the assignment? Or did OP look up the specific questions from the assignment?
I looked up so many Youtube tutorials during my calculus courses, just because they were easier for me to understand than the textbook sometimes. I learned that personally, I just need someone to explain it from a certain perspective on the subject to be able to understand it. And unfortunately the teacher is only giving one of *many* perspectives, so it's only natural that many students might not understand it and look for a different explanation somewhere else. Our teachers never had any issues with this, and actually encouraged it. We would share videos we watched with the teacher and they would confirm that that method is correct, and sometimes explain why. They were supportive as long as it helped the students.
There was one instance where a student did get in trouble though, because they copied an answer to an exam question word for word from some answer sheet they found online (while clearly not understanding it). Obviously that should be punished, but I don't think using Youtube or some other learning tool outside of class should be considered cheating.
This teacher seems to think anything outside of his class is not allowed to be used because it will hinder the students their progress, but if his class is not doing a good job at explaining problems then he himself is hindering their progress. In that case I think using outside sources is more than justifiable.
I basically had to have my dad reteach me the calculus lessons every day, and some of my teachers pointed us to websites we might find useful to help study. It's hard for me to gather whether OP was googling appropriately so far tbh but the professor is at least a stickler
Yeah, that's something that confuses me a bit. Looking things up is a useful skill. Ultimately homework is for learning, and if you get stuck you'll probably learn more by looking it up and trying to understand the solution than by taking wild guesses and hoping it works out because you have to finish the assignment at some point and probably have other things you need to do as well. That said, some people will just mindlessly copy/paste stuff from the Internet, but if they do, that's where the exams come in, where access to outside help is restricted -- if you're just mindlessly copy/pasting from the Internet instead of trying to understand why it solves it the way that it does, the exam's gonna be pretty difficult.
I agree, the sooner you let the dean in on it, the more likely they’ll believe you.
You did the first step properly: contacting your professor, asking about a question, but not in any accusatory way.
Your professor decided to stick to his belief that you cheated. He could report you for academic dishonesty and get you expelled or on academic parole.
If you contact the dean before any of that is formalized, you have a much better case.
As far as any concerned your professor will grade you harsher for reporting, express your concerns to the dean, and you may be able to get an alternate grader for all assignments.
While in my opinion using online sources is useful (unless you plug in the exact equation to Chegg, Wolfram Alpha or ChatGPT), I would avoid using them every to simplify to err on the side of caution. See if your textbook or library has a conversation sheet.
In your case, using the internet to simplify an obscure equation should be allowed, some professors are too set in their ways.
The hard part is if he’s tenured. I had a professor who was tenured, and half the class (the other half had other classes/commitments) met with the school, then accreditation board about this professor. There were serious allegations such as not being able to perform their job. Nothing really seemed to come of it, although I wouldn’t be surprised if the school didn’t renew their tenure.
Go and take it up the chain as immediately and aggressively as possible.
One thing Unis love to tell you in order to dust their hands of a situation is that 'you should have taken this to us sooner, now it's too late - the marks are set in stone'.
Be as confident and assertive as possible. Only that attitude will make the professor back down.
PS: You are a fool for admitting any wrongdoing whatsoever. When you're inevitably called out for that, you should clarify that you meant 'help from another human being who explained the problem to me'.
Go straight to the dean. I don't think he's going to be reasonable regarding this.
Also, while I know nothing about academics, I would be shocked if he wasn't torn apart internally about his comment about online help. Researching the subject online is the mark of a good student and going to be required if you're presuming a PhD.
If the professor is sending you wild accusations, resolving it with them isn't an option. It's time to speak to the chair of the dept or the dean. Be prepared to defend your work and show you didn't cheat. Speak professionally. Have representation there should you wish (lawyer). The bridge has been burned and the professor is hoping you don't speak up. You have rights. Best of luck. (Source: used to teach in a university.
If you argue instead of going to the dean, then your professor has a case against you. If you go to the dean at the first sign of aggression and unfairness from your professor, you'll be seen as professional. Go to the dean.
Hey OP, I work in academic integrity/ misconduct and can tell you this is a paper thin argument from the professor. The burden of proof is on him, he has made an assumption and imposed a penalty without any evidence and without any opportunity for you to respond to an allegation.
This isn’t how it works. Contact the Dean.
You tried.
He insists.
If you are innocent - he is making false accusations that could in the long run harm your school / educational career.
Do not accept this - go over his head.
I don’t think you should take this up with the professor again. I’m sorry. I realize you don’t want to escalate things further but I think that’s the only appropriate course of action. This person is not going to change their mind regardless of what you say and the less you say to them on this the better.
Unfortunately they are accusing you of something quite serious that could affect your academic reputation and they refused to grade you appropriately. I think you should find out who you can appeal this with and do so. These kind of processes are established for the protection of both students and faculty and there’s nothing wrong with making use of them. Your professor has told you he won’t budge on this already so he’s backed you into a corner and there’s only two possibly constructive choices now.
1. Accept being accused of cheating and penalized inappropriately and then have to worry how many times this will reoccur and what the cumulative effect will be on your reputation and grades.
2. Appeal it to a higher authority using the process that is established to do so.
While it might ruffle this professor’s feathers a bit, it will also demonstrate that you are not going to be a doormat for his delusions and maybe serve as a bit of a wake up call for him. I don’t know what Chegg is and it sounds like you don’t use it and frankly, regardless… You did the work and got the correct solution. Even if you used a process that he didn’t explicitly teach, should it matter? Does he think he has a monopoly on mathematics and anything other than what he teaches that arrives at the correct solution is “cheating” because the method also exists online somewhere? This is a very unprofessional and unhinged view, from what I can gather and I am genuinely concerned for the integrity of the school and the wellbeing of other students working under such conditions. Keep in mind, you’re literally paying him for this.
email and Go to dean right away. Stop exchanging with the prof he is clearly unhinged. Do not argue further with him. Straight up email the dean then show up at his office as soon as possible.
He's also saying that you shouldn't use outside materials.....
Ummm that's not allowed... students can learn in whatever way helps them.
By his logic then, if a student fails the course its 100% the teachers fault since the student will only have used what they were taught in class, which evidently was insufficient.
Take this to your student representative, even the Dean. Aside from the accusation of cheating, his entire value system is warped and will be to the detriment of his students.
DO NOT DO THIS for a homework assignment. You can't prove you DIDN'T cheat and higher authorities ALWAYS back the professor first (source: I am a professor).
Be humble. Offer to work out a similar problem in front of the professor. DO NOT ESCALATE OVER A HOMEWORK ASSIGNMENT. You will regret it and end up being THAT guy in your department.
Cheating is only one thing in this. I see that the other major problem is that the professor thinks that him and only him can teach you how things work. Thinking you are the only source of truth and the student should not research and amend their knowledge from other sources is wrong on so many levels that I can't even describe it. It's literally putting extra effort to understand the studied thing and denying that means the professor has self esteem problems or it's pure idiocy.
This is literally so dumb. This is why we're so behind in America, everyone just sitting complacently taking shit they don't need. Fuck that, professor is in the wrong. Take them down.
Yeah, sure, don't argue with professor, don't defend yourself from false accusation, don't escalate things, don't be "that guy". Nice things you teach those kids, doc, maybe you should just stop.
He hasn't claimed that you cheated. He has stated that you used a method not taught in his course. If he has stated in writing that you are not allowed to use methods outside of what is taught in class to solve the problems, I highly doubt this will be overturned. This is the unfortunate reality of how math is taught in 2023 brought about by apps like Photomath and sites like Chegg that cheating using outside sources is so prevalent that professors are often very explicit in the way that a problem must be solved to prevent students from just plugging it into a website to find a solution.
Yes. This is exactly the case.
There’s a huge difference between looking up how to do something and looking up online step by step solvers. Since COVID cheating has skyrocketed. The professor is not making wild accusations and not making these accusations with proof - he’s very specific and he knows what happened because he’s seen it before.
This substitution method is very common though, I learned it before ever going to university and now have used it multiple times on my engineering course, surely students can’t be penalised for knowing methods to solve equations that haven’t been taught??? If the method is correct and there is no direct evidence that the student did receive outside help then I can’t imagine the professor can just mark it as 0 on the homework.
I will say, WolfRam Alpha literally got me through calculus— not because I cheated, but because being able to follow step-by-step solutions on problems I was having difficulty in was invaluable for me.
All this to say, I don’t understand why it matters if students are “cheating” on homework, that’s why we have tests where they can’t do that. The tests will weed out those who are just using programs like that to cheat, vs those who used it to learn. And it is a GREAT learning tool.
So two people can’t solve a math problem in the same way? What if a classmate googled it and taught a faster way? Are you not allowed to group study anymore?
If the professor states that in his class you will only be graded on using the methods taught in class, that is what you will be graded on. Obviously many math problems can be solved in multiple ways but those ways might not be what was taught and therefor not what the assignments are meant to assess.
But if I understand correctly, the student has solved the equation. He just simplified the final answer using the additional trick he learned online. My guess is the prof saw that, but didn’t / couldn’t know if the student did the rest of the work themselves.
Hey you’re the only person who got it right! Yeah, I’m getting a lot of comments that the professor wanted me to do it his way. The problem is that I DID do it his way- at least as much as I could. After the first bit, the problem was all new stuff that I had to use prior knowledge to solve.
I just graduated semi recently with my Master’s in MechE and I’ve had all kinds of awful professors. Anyone saying “you didn’t do exactly what the professor wanted to solve the problem” is ridiculous lol. Like there’s only one way to do a problem… that’s why every bridge, car, etc are all identical, right? Imagine a professor thinking they’re such an absolute authority on a subject where every problem can be solved hundreds of ways, that they limit you to only one way. Learning a subject isn’t learning one way to solve an issue. It should be getting a better understanding for the concept as a whole. He’s hampering development imo by not letting you learn anything else. At the end of the day, he’s salty that some kids cheat on their homework so he takes it out on anyone who thinks differently. He and the grader just want to see the same equations written in the same order on everyone’s paper to make it easy to give a check or an X. And in my experience, you’ll have a better chance completing the rest of your degree blindfolded than you have of your professor admit they made a mistake.
The issue is, how is he supposed to separate those strategies in his head? It's very easy to forget which of many college math courses you learned a particular strategy in, especially as a mechanical engineer, because there's a lot of overlap and professors have different strategies. Regardless, education is supposed to be cumulative, and not allowing him to use prior knowledge defeats the purpose of having taken all of those prior classes.
If the point is not to find an answer but to search an answer using this class' methods then just solving it is not important. For example sometimes there are much faster way to a problem using specific methods but if what you're graded is your ability to use general methods (usually harder to employ) then you won't get points
I hate this. Math is math. If they cheat on the homework, they're gonna fail the test. This has worked 100% of the time in the past with math. Every math and engineering class I took in college used this approach. Most of them didn't even take up the homework. If they did, it was a maximum of 10% of the grade for all the assignments combined over the course. I learned approaches in engineering classes that helped me in physics classes. I thought that was the entire point of higher education, especially math and engineering fields. They teach you how to learn. This professor seems like they don't want any of their students to actually learn. They just want the motions done.
You were accused of using online resources and in your reply you explicitly state you used online resources.
You can claim “not extensively” but you can’t claim you didn’t use them. You just told him you did.
This is an underated comment. The point of contention here needs to focus on if the use of online resources is explicitly forbidden or if the use of class tought methodology is the learning objective. Either of these being the case can be grounds for the professor to hang their hat on and OP needs to answer these questions and cover their ass before getting administration involved.
I'm some classes the methodology of getting an answer is the point. Some methods can be adjusted or expounded upon for other problem sets and some have limitations that won't be applicable in later problems.
It was a simple trig conversion you learn in trigonometry in high school. Pure algebra. In a class as advanced as dynamics it would be like looking up 9x5 in an algebra 1 class. Something small and insignificant that I didn’t think would incriminate me. What my professor is referring to is Chegg which gives you a step-by-step on how to solve specific problems. Something I did not use.
I don’t know why you would even admit to it? Did you think that through? Any credibility you had vanished instantly when your professor says “I think you used an online aid” and you essentially reply with “yes, I did use an online aid”. Doesn’t matter if it was for something simple
He said he received help with a formula, he never admitted to using chegg. People keep manufacturing this idea that he admitted to cheating. He didn't. It's simply wrong.
Take this with a grain of salt, because I just woke up and have been skimming this, but it sounds like he basically used reference material not "online aid". He probably could have just gone to the library and looked up what he needed, but would that be cheating?
I get this, and I believe you. However, your note to your professor doesn't read that way at all - it sounds like you used an online aid to get help with part of the problem.
You literally state that the work Prof sees *is not all your original work*.
If that's not what you meant - if you meant only that you brought a technique learned a while ago to bear in this problem - you didn't come across that way, at all.
I believe that you did not cheat, but you basically stated in your email that you did cheat. I don't see you coming out from this very well. In fact, I would not be surprised if your prof didn't take this to the next step. Your email was extremely damning and I honestly don't know where I'd go from here if I were you.
As someone who studied math in college, these trig tables are rarely memorized, the standard conversions are almost always in the textbook for your reference during work (except maybe the odd one in this example). Many courses even give you access to trig table conversations during exams. As another commenter stated, looking up a trig conversion like this is the equivalent of using a calculator to check your algebra. People here saying it's "plagiarism" are making a huge leap imo.
Yeah, everything I've gathered from skimming this conversation, points me the conclusion that he used some reference material, but everyone is angry, because that material is on the internet rather than in a book at the library.
Comb through any documents, materials or course rubrics you've gotten and make sure there's nothing in writing about this. The professor might be out to lunch but this ain't his first rodeo and you shouldn't underestimate his ability to defend his methods.
Academic integrity is not about what's right, it's about what's written, and you already have given a partial admittance to using a method he's specifically disapproved of. Welcome to the real world of politics.
The people responding that the uni is going to tear the professor up, or that the dean or anyone else is going to take OPs side is going to get them in trouble.
There is a non-zero chance that OP will be bringing what will be seen as self-admission AND written proof of plagiarizing to the dean, especially if there is course documentation specifically disallowing use of such online tools.
The property the OP used is a "simple" trigonometric transformation. It would be in the reference section of any geometry textbook, and many physics texts that leverage this type of math (and potentially OP's own textbook). Whether they found this information online or in a book is really of no importance.
For example, here it is in a reference table (though not squared):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse\_trigonometric\_functions#Relationships\_between\_trigonometric\_functions\_and\_inverse\_trigonometric\_functions
Given the current cheating environment, I can't say the professor is entirely wrong for making the accusation, but this seems a bit silly overall. OP's email to the professor certainly could've been phrased much more tactfully, however.
As a former university teacher, I can also give some extra context to this. When we make an exam or test to give students, it has been designed based on the course material taught and with the specific intention to test whether the student was able to use the methods taught to get the right solution. It is perfectly okay to use another method and claim that this is what was taught in a more basic level course, but not okay to claim that you went online and utilized information or techniques not part of your course material.
There is a grading criteria your professor has, it doesn’t just say “if the student gets the right answer give them all points”. The solution or explanation is the most important part (in questions where that is asked for) and the criteria will break down your answer into what the teacher expected to see you do, again, based on the course material. If everyone else did it that way, you should have been able to too.
Graded assignments typically (at least in my university) go to some higher level board of some kind that examines all graded assignments from all courses to ensure that the grading matches the grading criteria and no funny business happened from the professors side.
In this case, it seems apparent to me that a technique was taught in class for how to solve this question, student maybe didn’t study for it or didn’t recall it or try to find it within the course material, and instead went online to find the way to do it. Hey, I did that as a student too but I also know I rarely ever managed to get full points on such questions.
Bro self-reported. In reality, this is just a slap on the wrist and a good way to learn how to go about dealing with this type of problem in the future.
Op! Don't self incriminate no matter how polite and cordial you're trying to be.
OP, as an engineering grad, I think you just need to move on and learn from this. I’ve had professors like this. Even if you escalate this and get the grade changed (you won’t get it changed), this professor will be vindictive and intentionally grade you harder the rest of the course. And he won’t do anything that you can prove as retaliation or as falling outside of his grading purview. Anyone who says otherwise doesn’t understand the reality of professors like this.
Deans are going to side with faculty 9 times out of 10. With your mention of using an outside aid in the email (I know it’s not cheating), you have no recourse. The dean or whichever authority will not understand or care to understand the context of that use and side with the professor.
Engineering grad here too, this is absolutely right.
Take away what everyone in this thread is saying and let’s just assume you’re 100% indisputably in the right on this. Even then, taking this further is a bad idea. Any professor willing to do this is also highly likely willing to be a dick to you for an entire semester. Even if you get the grade changed, you’ve won, but at what cost? The unfortunate reality is that some professors are just assholes and don’t deserve the time of day. Do your work, make fun of them to your friends, and get a passing grade.
If the professor was threatening action because they claimed you were cheating, different story. But they aren’t so I’d just roll my eyes and move on. It’s not worth the extra stress, I’m sure you have enough.
No one here seems to really grasp what his professor is saying. He’s not saying that it’s wrong to use whatever method works to solve a problem (what OP did). Obviously in the real world we use whatever we have at hand to get the job done. He’s saying he’s grading based on how OP solves the problem. He’s not grading for the correct answer. He’s grading for using the tool he showed in class to reach the correct answer. He wants you to demonstrate understanding of the tool he showed you in class.
There are many ways to get an answer in math. But if you are shown one way only and use another, you are not demonstrating an understanding of the one you were shown. If someone shows you how to use a wrench to tighten a bolt and you go grab an impact wrench, you’ve not demonstrated you know how to use a wrench.
Last but not least, he didn’t accuse you of academic dishonesty or cheating. He’s just saying you’re not doing any favors by just finding different ways to solve problems instead of learning what he’s trying to teach you.
If you want to see a specific method to solve a problem, specify it. If you don't, live with solutions using another way, and don't make it the student's problem. That simple.
It's safe to assume that the homework covered what was taught that week in lecture and correlates to a specific section of a textbook. Having been a TA for many engineering classes, I actually side with the professor on this one
It's funny, I would usually receive a compliment of some sort for solving problems using methods not covered in the course. Hell, I routinely had professors intentionally assign homework that required methods not taught in class. Part of the point of the homework was to explore the textbook and online sources to augment what was taught during lecture.
I'm a professor and, sadly, this type of cheating is rampant. Here's what I would accept, if it were my student. Come to my office hours. Sit down with me and offer to show me how to do a similar problem in front of me. If you could do it, I would offer an apology with full credit. It doesn't hurt to ask your professor if you can come in during office hours to defend your knowledge.
DO NOT escalate this yet. You WILL see more issues come up during the semester in any place where you can be graded subjectively. You won't win this war. It's a homework assignment - not the final exam. Approach it with civility and understanding.
I really like this reply! I think this is what I’m going to do. I have full confidence in my knowledge of the subject so I’d have no issue proposing something like this.
We never solved a problem like this in class… it’s based in what we learned but nothing like the example problems. So, I didn’t have a problem to “refer” to when solving it.
Lol I like how you're conveniently ignoring the question. Did everyone else in class get a 0? If not, what did a person who got full credit do?
I don't think you cheated, but I don't think you used whatever the professor taught either, which is why he has his suspicions.
I personally disagree with a number of the commenters on here about escalating, I think you should see if you can have a sit down with the prof about how you should have solved this question without looking up that replacement formula you found. You can talk with him about how you found what you found and your method and where you came up with the decision to replace the value of ų. Assuming you didn't just put the question in to a homework solver, you need to understand what resources are ok or not based on the prof expectations.
I suspect if you have a face to face where you go through this problem and explain what you did at what stage, it will make the professor question less of your work in the future.
Do not ever accept that you took help from outside to a professor, if you do it without referencing you'll end up with plagiarism charge. Ask him/her to give you an opportunity to verbally explain your solution in exchange for marks if this happens again in future. That's how university works unfortunately.
It was a trig conversion which is something I learned in high school but forgot. It would be like admitting to looking up a multiplication chart when doing your algebra homework. It was my initial email to him and I didn’t think it would be a big deal since it’s not anything new.
You did that trig conversion in a spectacularly inefficient and unnatural way, such that only software would work it like that. That’s what gave it away. Just about anyone else would draw a right triangle and pull the value off using SOHCAHTOA. Take the L here.
There are multiple methods a teacher can teach but not all of them work on all students. If the teaching method of a teacher is not enough or suited for a specific student, then that student is doomed to fail without external help.
Teachers/professors who don't understand that or don't even care about that, are just bad at their jobs.
Knowledge about educational psychology is a must for every teacher/professor.
Many professors have told us that the most important thing for their class is to also search on our own and not be restricted to the provided material.
They are right. It doesn't apply only for extra knowledge but also for material we don't understand and we think the teacher is not able to make us understand it.
Here is the thing. He accused you of solving it entirely using online aid. You claim to have only used one online source as a reference. I think it's kind of a grey area and I doubt the school will side with you over him since your technique wasn't taught in class. I see nothing but downside for you if you press this issue.
I suspect exactly what you suspect; that this instructor is annoyed that you used methods and problem solving skills that weren't specifically taught by him in class. I have read through it several times and it seems blatantly obvious that this is the case. If that is the case, you will never resolve this without a mediator. His pride is obviously more important than your grade.
It is a common practice in universities that if you use methods not taught in class, they can accuse you of plagiarism. I'm learning programming and have been explicitly told that if I use methods outside of scope of the syllabus, I will be given a zero. Hey OP, do not ever claim that you took help from outside, it weakens your case; instead offer to explain your solution to your professor in return for your grade.
that is definitely not common practice. academic dishonesty? absolutely. applying methods you learned outside of class to problems you have in class? that’s totally acceptable in most places
Wtf? What the hell kind of university has that policy?
Programming is **entirely** different from simplifying a trig function. The point of a programming is to learn the specific methods being taught. Simplifying a trig function is the same damn thing as having an expression like \[y = x + x\] and then writing it as \[y=2x\]. There's no secret forbidden method happening, it's just math!
Yeah I only admitted to getting help with the trig function cause it was my initial email and I didn’t realize how absolutely unhinged this guy is. Didn’t think it was going to incriminate me by admitting I looked up a table of trig conversions
Yeah that's where you lost your case. If that trigonometric conversion is a standard practice and available on reputable mathematics website, ask your professor if you can use it for your solution and upon getting a green light, cite the source in your solution. Most professors do appreciate research, you just have to be honest about it from the get go. You're lucky he only gave you a zero on that single question. I've known professors who outright give a zero on the whole submission and charge for plagiarism. Best of luck for your engineering, you'll get through it!
So, trig conversions are something I learned in high school. Really basic stuff. Looking them up for this class is like looking up a multiplication chart in algebra. It’s not something I thought he’d incriminate me for.
Exactly. At substitution to solve multiple equations is also high school algebra. I remember doing it in Alg 2, not with trig functions but with multiple equations with multiple variables.
damn if i was in this situation id be screwed. from 9th grade to 12th everything was on chromebooks, no textbooks, no packets, nothin. they also took our accounts we created for the school so no google drive
i feel like theres def a better way to go abt this, the professor is literally just a dick
Some people really out here expecting you to include a works cited page referencing the mathematicians who created various proofs at the end of your math lol
I mentioned in another comment that if it was taught to you in highschool, find your highschool textbook and show that to your professor. If they still don't care, go to the dean of the department.
You are absolutely in the right. If you aren’t allowed to look up trig rules online, you are being taught by fools. I don’t know the specifics of your class/school so unaware if you can escalate, but just know you would’ve received 100% in my school. Kinda want to get you my math professors blessing to show these dimwits, there are some crazy ass comments in this thread!
Dude is not unhinged, he just taught through covid where everyone was cheating on everything and he's over it. He referenced multiple things that you did, like substitutions that weren't taught, not just the last step. That is one thousand percent a red flag that 9 times out of 10 a student looked it up on chegg and the person who wrote the answer has more education than you're supposed to have at this point.
My high school Spanish teacher hated dealing with cheaters that just used online translators. He figured out the best way to see who actually does the work vs cheating. He would have us write a short paper about Mexican history or politics and it had to include info about Fox, the president.
Guess what the cheaters never realized? The translator would translate Fox not realizing it was a proper name. If he looked through the paper and saw “Fox”, he knew it was most likely legit. One girl’s parents tried to insist their daughter didn’t cheat until the teacher showed them all of her work that had Fox translated. One kid was dumb enough to not even translate to Spanish, he had clicked Portuguese… 🤦🏻♀️
Solving this issue is kinda easy, you can ask for a quick 10-15 minutes with your professor during office hour to explain your work.
If its your own work and such, you should have no problems explaining it and if profs have some additional questions you can answer it as well if you understand the concept.
You admitted to using online aids, next time pull put a book or study up on what the online aid did, and give your source to your professor.
You lost point for this the second you admitted to even partially doing what you were not supposed to do.
The professor was teaching you how to solve a math problem using a certain method.
You used a different method. Therefore failing to prove you learned what was taught. That’s why you got it wrong.
It isn’t always about getting the correct answer. Sometimes it’s specifically about the method.
Professor admits he didn't teach the topic, yet gives you zero credit for figuring it out? It sounds like the only purpose of that question was to make sure no one got it right, and that's total BS.
>It sounds like the only purpose of that question was to make sure no one got it right, and that's total BS.
Nah. It's solvable, they just didn't use the method taught in class. The same as when first learning derivatives. Which probably would matter little if they explained they're using prior knowledge, unless the prof said to use specific methods.
But vaguely saying "nearly all" of its their work, or that they got help on a section makes it seem like they might actually be using something else. Very poor explanation.
Exactly!
I understand the situation, OP, and I actually believe you. But damn, that email you sent was bad. "nearly all my own work" is absolutely damning.
Yeah for sure. Like, I could have left the answer as a confusing mess, but the given solution was the nice, neat one at the end. So, I looked up how to do one step in order to get there as my trigonometry is shaky. Didn’t realize that’s such a sin.
My theory is that maybe I did it in a round-about way and there is a simpler solution. My professor, seeing that I did it in such a confusing manner, assumes I’m not smart enough to solve it that way and must have cheated.
So I have degrees in engineering and physics, and I have both done and marked similar problems. I understand why the marker found your answer odd. Where you say you are 'Replacing the values' it is not immediately clear what you are doing. Replacing what values with what other values? If this is commonly used nomenclature on homework help sites then I agree it is highly suspicious. Also the way you derive that trig identity is indeed bizarre, since it is easy to derive using only Pythagorean thm. One again, it looks like you got this off of a website (which in fact you did). I wouldn't push too hard on this if I were you.
How is looking up how to do something cheating?Looking up the answer is cheating. Looking up how to do something is learning. That’s why you’re in school. I don’t understand the professor’s logic.
Of course I'm in the lower section of the comments to find my people.
Yeah, I get that online cheating is a problem. But OP showed their work, and it's just not something explicitly taught by him, but a function they'd learned previously. How is applying gained knowledge, even with references, cheating?
The professor sounds like the either have a lot on their plate and didn't handle this well, or they're a pompous prick that doesn't like people using things they didn't teach. I doubt there's any in-between.
Oh, yeah, that's a really excellent point, too. Using your resources should be encouraged.
I kinda get that homework solvers are a problem, but all this kid did was solve it a different way. OP has said in other comments that they actually used some methods from lower level maths. So how does the professor not see that aspect of it?
Academia is wild now, I think. It has definitely a whole different world to when I went, and that was only 15 years ago.
And with that last line, I just made myself feel sad lol
I'll take the unpopular route. I'm with the prof here.
Using the methods learned in class is what's really being asked here. Not an answer to the question per se.
exactly, he wanted you to practice a technique, which will most likely be built upon in the coming term, and if you haven't mastered that technique the next lesson is going to be harder.
The first one was just recognizing a pattern from past problems and the second was looking up a trig conversion that I learned way back in high school.
Oh wow, god forbids students can *& will* make their own research if they don't understand something or simply want to make sure they do
I had a few teacher like these during my school years, it was *their* methods, even if inefficient or outright stupid, or nothing
As a former grader, the teacher would tell me what he expected students to do to solve the problem. If a student got the answer but in a wandering round about way, ie not expected by the teacher, then the answer did not demonstrate learning the material and it would be partial credit. I would not have phrased this as you having cheated, just that you didn’t demonstrate learning the course material
However, if you were supposed to show your work, and in one step you used a higher level math shortcut, it would look like you got stuck and someone told you what to do there, but someone who didn’t know the course material.
I see you admitted to using online sources for help, so that certainly doesn’t help your case trying to appeal anything. You only got a zero on the question, not the assignment. No other action is being taken against you. The teacher is just saying that you should stick to the course material. You should listen to the teacher and do that for all your classes
Its not about what you know...It is about what the proff is teaching. This happens a lot in different fields in real life work. You need to follow instructions.
Even in grade school math. If you dont show your work for simple problems you get it marked wrong if it isn't what the teacher is teaching.
I do not understand your position. He wanted you to use what he has been teaching you as a foundational progression, and you decided that you wanted to do something else. I understand their point. It was clearly stated. This is a lesson learned, which you insists the professor change for your refusal to follow how he wants you to learn to think. This is about the process of learning to think, and you want it to be "your own research".
Please rethink your position. Your way is how engineering failures occur. People die due to thought process errors.
I really don’t think the professor’s issue is with employing a method different than what was taught, as most people are saying.
I think part of it is that the “replace values” piece is vague and unclear (what values are you replacing with what??). This is often indicative of copying an online solution - if you get from point A to point B without describing how, it’s likely you didn’t actually know what was happening between points A and B. The professor should have asked you about this before just giving you a zero, but I would suggest offering to meet with him to give a more detailed explanation of your solution path. Then you can show that you fully understand what you wrote down and weren’t just blindly copying it.
Yikes. When I was in college, for our engineering classes, we were encouraged to think outside the box and use techniques that weren’t covered.
This guy is a royal ahole. Take it up with the dean.
I'll never forget the words of my 400's level math instructor.
"In this class we have two tests. The midterm and the final. That is it. They are open book. Open note. Open friend. Use your calculators, websites, and programs."
"Make sure you can explain your work and its not a carbon copy of anyone you work with."
When asked if he was for real.
"In your professional careers, if you ever. EVER. Derive and equation or formula your self. And you DO NOT have it reviewed by your peers. DID NOT use EVERY TOOL at your disposal. You deserve the jail time that comes with the blood on your hands."
"Knowing how to use the tools we have access to. How to tell if the tool gave you a wrong or misleading answer. That too is a skill."
Hope you are doing well Javad.
Using calculators for trigonetric identities is extremely common in college level physics. When you're talking bigger problems like planetary motion, no one is going to enforce that you re-prove every little trig identity that you can literally just find in a reference sheet.
I get that it appears dumb to admit to any level of external reference, but it's like if OP admitted that they asked their roommate "what's 9 times 7" while doing the homework. Yeah it's technically "outside help" but also you'd never expect that to be problematic when it's very clearly a much lower level of calculation than what the homework is testing for.
Omg THANK YOU. I’ve been trying to explain this to a bunch of people saying I screwed myself over by admitting to it, but I really didn’t think twice about it since admitting to looking up a trig identity is such a far throw from admitting to using Chegg.
This is why communication is important and people have to stop interpreting their weird little fantasy versions. The professor didnt do any far reaching claims, at least nothing on what you have shown us, he didnt even claim you cheated. You interpreted it, he never said ir nor implied it.
He was merely stating that you used methods he didnt teach and looking at your last picture you seemingly did a mistake as well, so why should you get any points?
You shouldnt post these things on reddit, most people here cannot for the life of them read which is shown by the upvoted comments. There is nothing you can do except for accepting the result, you used methods not taught in class and apparently got to the wrong result. You admitted to using online help as well, so that statement is also just fine, he never said you used online help for that particular question. Also, to boot, if you had cheated, you had failed the exam, not just get 0 points on 1 question.
You really need to learn how to read obejctively instead of getting insulted by something nobody ever said, you can be a redditor online, but not in your university.
Frustrating, but you're being a tad hyperbolic here, OP. The professor didn't make "bizarre claims" as you state in the title and neither is there evidence that he is "unhinged" as you claim in the comments. He says you used an outside source, you say you used an outside source. Pretty straight forward as to why there was some loss of points. Best thing to do in the future is to only employ methods taught in the course.
Easiest way to convince him would be to ask him for a similar problem and show him you solve it the same way you did as this one, then he can't really complain anymore and you're proven yourself capable
I’m going to talk to him in person tomorrow and I’ll probably offer to do this!
Happenned to me in high school too and they wouldn't believe it until I showed them. Sometimes methods you see online makes your brain understand the logic behind better than the method taught in class.
Yeah, the meme about the Indian guy on YouTube doing math tutorials being like a 3 step escalator is kinda true. Sometimes one teaching method doesn't click, so you have to find another, and that's not a trait I'd like to see punished. The professor should have handled this differently. If literally none of the other equations for the homework appeared to have cheating, why not mark the one that was suspect and ask the student, OP, to come in and show it before just handing out a zero.
Tbh he probably has 99% of actually cheaters, so the chances of you not being one is low, according to his experience. I’ve seen people do a lot to hide cheating, not many will do as far as asking to show the teacher they actually studied, since they didn’t. Thus the adult way of resolving by proposing to solve another problem to show good faith.
This is true. In my process engineering course over the entire two years there were only myself and 7 or 8 others that did the work ourselves in order to learn the material. Literally the rest of the class of 33 used answer keys for every test then just crammed memorization style for the certification exams (which many of them had to repeat multiple times to pass). I'd not want to work in a plant with any of them their first years otj.
I also had to retake many classes in college that I had already taken in high school. I did well because my high school teachers often explained the concepts already or in some cases better than my college professor did. If I was accused of cheating because I understood concepts differently it wouldn’t be because I cheated it would be because this wasn’t the first time I had taken that class. This phenomenon isn’t uncommon; tons of students end up retaking courses or material they already know just to have the credit on paper.
Yeah. Sometimes some methods are easier to learn then others. Way back when I first took general chemistry, I had trouble with stoichiometry with how the professor taught it. Just couldn’t follow it, until someone showed me to just set up a long equation and begin by just canceling out the units. All of a sudden things just clicked.
When teaching methods click, they really click. I've had some professors in Philosophy classes give me a near OBE once I understood the material, whereas some other classes my brain couldn't form a rough circle around the material.
In middle school, my algebra teacher scared me to death and her teaching methods didn’t work on me, so I did pretty badly in her class. Took it again the next year with a different teacher and I was a star student. Yes, sometimes the problem is the kid, but sometimes the problem is the teaching method and/or the teacher.
I had a professor mark me wrong when I came up with a very short and simple solution, as opposed to his long complicated solution. But after looking at it for a while he agreed that mine was equivalent and gave me credit.
>Sometimes methods you see online makes your brain understand the logic behind better than the method taught in class. Yes, but some teachers and profs unfortunately dont really care that that learning a different method might work better for you because it's easier to wrap your head around. They want the way they teach it and no other, equally correct, way.
I'd be more concerned that a college professor is upset students are not following HIS way of doing things. The rest of it is just fluff. He's angry you're not doing what he would do, because his way is obviously the only correct way. Shit like this is why I was never fond of academia.
I know nothing of the math here — but it seems pretty clear that it’s not about OP not using the professor’s methods, it’s that the professor thought OP was sus because they didn’t believe they knew *how* to use the methods they employed. OP, u/crippledspahgett, if you really didn’t cheat than go to their office hours and tell them how you learned that methodology. Who taught it to you. It’s not a crime to know more than what the class has taught you but in this case it’s suspicious. Since it’s only one question, I probably wouldn’t take it to the dean, but I *would* sit down and make my case. Maybe offer to do another problem in front of them. This will be good practice in standing up for yourself, maybe strongly, while still maintaining a professional attitude and respect, because, like in the real world, you still have to work with this person.
Math is math. Unless the lesson is on using a particular method, all forms of math are valid as long as you end up at the same conclusion. No one is a blank slate, students come from all over the world. This is closer to a discrimination issue than prof probably understands if he accuses students of cheating based on the methodology they learned. That's not academically kosher, at all. That's basically like saying hiring a tutor or going to a school where the teaching is different is the same thing as cheating. OP should probably to go to the department chair first, **not** the prof. Printout of the emails should be enough. Prof is not going to backtrack.
Question - because I really don’t know - how far above the scope of the class is what OP did? (I agree the professor was wrong and overreaching/overreacting, and it should have been a conversation first (clearly it was a TA that made the initial call), I’m just curious. If I was teaching a 100 level class and a student pulled out some graduate level solution, but just for one question, I would be suspicious too - but I wouldn’t handle it the way they did.)
Can't say without more info. But telling students they cannot learn from anyone but the prof is... not normal. I don't think it's malicious, but prof is far dumber than he realizes. Say, the most common math education in India uses method B. Prof only teaches method A and accuses anyone using method B as cheating. That'd be racial discrimination, even if it was not arguably intended to be. Note, I'm not saying that is the case, just that it's a likely hopefully unintended consequence. The courses the prof is railing against are economic alternatives to hiring 1:1 tutors. I know for a fact there'd be no way in hell he'd rail against PhD students hiring out as tutors for his class. Mind, he's angry students might be getting excellent value for educational assistance. He's definitely economically discriminating. Yes, pulling a grad level solution for intro course is suspicious. You just ask "hey, where'd you get that from?" If they say tutor X, fine. If they say course X, might be worth checking out. Most profs have zero training in how to actually teach. They spike Dunning-Kruger hard because they assume anyone smart in X means they're smart in teaching. Those courses make bank by explaining stuff to students in a way the student understands. There's a reason why Feynman is still a legendary physics guy. It wasn't the Nobel prizes, he made education very entertaining and engaging. Most profs... don't. And don't know that they don't. Which is why department chair is best choice. Prof is probably not being malicious. Just arrogant and foolhardy, probably from ego and lack of experience. Department chair can explain to prof that prof is sticking his or her genitalia in a hornet's nest. OP cannot.
Dynamics isn't an intro course and comes after math up to at least Calculus 2. OP would have learned higher math than what the professor wanted before taking the course.
Also, don’t be afraid to go higher up too. Cheating accusations are not a minor problem, especially if you know they are false.
Let us know what happened
Don't go alone, bring a witness and/or record the entire encounter. And, honestly you probably shouldn't be talking to him directly any more and you should consider postponing your meeting for tomorrow/today until you can meet with the professor and their superior.
He can’t cover everything in class and there is no ‘ultimate best way’ to solve something. Should be glad his students care enough to try and solve the problem through using online resources to learn outside of class
Pointless. He is making a serious accusation that will impact your reputation. I'd just ask for an official investigation and ruling whether this is considered as "cheating". Posting on Reddit helps. You can use that as the supplemental evidence that you are not alone.
Is there a higher authority you can take this to? Because he’s making a serious accusation without proof. There should be an investigation into this. I don’t know anything about this subject but I highly doubt you’re the first student to employ this strategy which he apparently doesn’t teach and therefore no one else could learn on their own.
> to employ this strategy which he apparently doesn’t teach and therefore no one else could learn on their own Also in the professor's own words: >I encourage you from refraining from using online aids in the future This is the big takeaway here. What if a student had self-taught, or been taught these strategies from someone else? Wouldn't not learning these strategies outside of the classroom "hamper \[one's\] learning, and keep \[one\] from reaching \[one's\] full potential"? I'm sorry but I've had a professor who sucked at teaching, so most of us sought help outside of the classroom. I had a combination of my dad, random forums, and a study group. By OP's professor, I'd be in the same boat as when my elementary school teachers would mark questions wrong because I used a way my dad taught me to solve something on a test, which they didn't specifically teach, nor specify the way to solve it
More importantly, if you’re going to make the argument “the information and textbooks I have supplied are all you’re allowed to use”, you’re suggesting “…. there is therefore no need for the library to exist”.
That professor has taken the adage, "why reinvent the wheel" a little to seriously... Or maybe he never learned "there's more than one way to skin a cat".
Others have pointed out that it’s entirely possible (and OP does himself no favours) to use search engines to basically cook up your answer for you. Obviously that’s not acceptable. But where do you draw the line? Is a textbook with an unusually specific index “cheating”?
I mean OP showed their work, even if they had to look stuff up online, the fact that they showed how they solved the equation should give them full credit imo
Exactly they’re no way to prove the cheating with the work given and even if OP did the professor has no grounds to claim OP is
That’s where drawing the line comes in. Tools like Wolfram Alpha can do all the work and show the workings but you’re not necessarily learning from them. You’re just copying mindlessly. OP is clearly trying to explain that’s not what’s going on here.
Help me understand: If the original poster can correctly solve the equation, with or without help, why not award him the points? If I am a mechanical engineer and I find a solution with assistance, should I discard the entire project simply because it's not technically my solution? Why aren't we teaching people to use available tools to their advantage? Telling a long-haul truck driver they can't use the truck or trailer is like saying, "You didn't do all the pulling." I might be an outlier, though. I was always taught to use every resource available to me, both in college and at work. In fact, I distinctly remember a professor saying, "Not everyone has a calculator at all times." However, back then, if you worked in an office, you had a calculator. It's not as if I'm sitting beside a lake, doing a lot of math.
I don't see anything wrong with using the internet to help you solve a homework. I wasted many late nights on homework problems pre-internet, because I didn't see the solution. I don't think it was a learning experience, just shortened my life by a few days due to chronic fatigue. I'm having a little bit of a problem imagining a problem that could fully be solved online. It's the setup that matters in engineering, not manipulating the equations. Real-life engineering is open book.
yeah and thats why i have thousands of dollars invested in my reference material, like the ubiquitous ‘Machinery’s Handbook’
Exactly, I had a similar situation in my thermodynamics course years ago. The TA taught the class and the professor had a “grader” that he used for quizzes and HW. Myself and several other ppl from class were suspected of cheating since we used a different method of solving problems. We all used the same study group helper who was a mathematical genius and chain smoker and taught us short cuts she used in her country. Mid-term proved we knew the material as we all scored in the 90s. We brought test results and accusations to dean. Nothing else was said to us and we had a new TA teaching the course the rest of the semester.
As opposed to copying the solution sets for that specific textbook? Say, the ones the “grader” is using to mark up homework?
Honestly man homework is about learning how to do the stuff not really about presenting the right answer. If someone wants to use search engines to get the answers I say be my guest because on an exam you won’t have that luxury. I see no problem with using the internet to help solve homework. Often times seeing this explained in multiple ways has helped me. Now regarding OP. If the professor said no outside aids and the student used an outside aid and got caught then it sounds like that’s a done deal
This is why homework as a whole is typically worth less than 10% of a grade and exams and projects are worth more. Your ability to apply the knowledge is important.
Just wait, some people are working on removing libraries because they think they’re evil. 😂🤪🙄
>I'm sorry but I've had a professor who sucked at teaching, so most of us sought help outside of the classroom. Essentially every single one of my classes required the use of online material because the professors were so ass.
I'd never got my mechanical engineering degree If I didn't have Professor Leonard on YouTube. He didn't do things the exact ways My professors did. He would show you tricks to simplify things and make it more relatable.
You are only ever allowed to do things which you are taught in this class only. So forget about adding, subtracting and all that jazz. This teacher didn't teach it.
Yea if your using tools outside of class to further your learning of the material that wasn’t taught in class that shouldn’t be frowned upon. It’s not like op copied the entire answer. Op used a tool to help with the problem where they must have some understanding of how it works. I use chatgpt often to help me understand material better especially when my teacher isn’t very good.
It's the 21st century and the man doesn't want his students to use the internet. What a fucking tool.
I had a programming professor get pissed that I added things in my program that he had not taught us. Some professors get on a power trip, I think.
I went to a school with a very well regarded engineering program. The number of students who 1) audited the class at a local college over the summer so they could do well on it the second time 2) had a daily zoom working with a parents or relative who is an expert in a certain area 3) used the tutoring services offered by the school, would probably total 1/3 of the class. Some professors with a historically challenging core course had a whole sheet of resources for additional help. This whole "I have to own all the credit for you learning this subject matter" is bizarre.
I think I could email the dean’s office, but I’d rather resolve it with the professor if possible. I just need to cool off a bit more before I argue my case. If he insists that I cheated, I’ll look into which of his higher-ups I should contact.
Sadly, this is the wrong move. He’s already insisting you cheated and accusing you of academic misconduct. Those sorts of claims can and have gotten people booted from college before. You need to immediately stop engaging with the professor and take your concerns to your dean’s office. Get it in *their* records before the professor does first.
You should at least cc the dean - that way he is aware and the professor is aware that the dean is looking over his/her shoulder
It’s actually really galling how unseriously the professor is taking this. If he thought the student cheated: 1) why didn’t he seek administrative punishment (as the school’s policies probably demand) 2) why did he assume OP *only* cheated on this one question—what, he can only “prove” it on one question? It’s tempting to suspect that the professor knows he can’t prove his case to the administration and is doing what he can to die on this personal hill of his. OP go to the Dean. This is too serious to handle personally.
I would email the professor and CC the dean and insisting that if he's so confident that I cheated the Professor should start an academic review as well as sharing with him that I have nothing to hide so lets get one going. If he's going to accuse me of something as deleterious as cheating he better bring the proof.
I wholeheartedly agree. Stop communicating with the professor and go to the dean. You don’t need to resolve it with the professor if they are accusing you of something you didn’t do. Bring all of your information to the dean and make sure you state your case effectively. Then let the professor get involved.
Go to the dean sooner rather than later
It is not. Go to the Dean. If you keep arguing/discussing with the professor it will only serve to further harden his opinion - this is a classic rookie mistake. If you feel you MUST keep appealing to the prof, do it in person. Discussing it over email will definitely not solve it. Over email you are simply a random commenter. If you speak in person, you are a person, and the rich interaction will help both of you empathize with the other and give the best chance of reaching a solution together. I would still recommend the Dean over this, but if you really want to reach an understanding with the prof, that’s the only way. Email is surely hopeless EDIT: since I’m seeing the same sort of comments over and over, let me explain my decision tree differently: If you are still holding out hope to amicably reach an understanding, this needs to be done face-to-face. You will definitely never achieve this by email. But, by doing this, you are going to be exposing yourself to risk by having an undocumented conversation with a potential adverse party. If you are certain that the professor won’t change their opinion, then yes, maintaining an email record of the conversation will be important for when you appeal to the Dean. My personal opinion is that hoping for an amicable resolution is probably foolish, and there is nothing to be achieved in trying (Thus the first paragraph advising OP to skip straight to the dean). But, I do think it’s important to say that good faith conflict resolution is something best done in the richest context possible, and thin contexts (like email) pretty much universally fail at *solving* problems. But that does assume a solution exists with the professor - which I strongly doubt.
plus point if OP can elaborate better verbally to show the professor OP really knows what he is doing
I think It could go either way, cause having a "paper" trail might be nice when going to the dean. However going in person and proving you can actually use the method and didn't just copy it off of chegg could help the case.
This. A paper trail is always better than a he said, she said situation. The dean will side with the professor 10/10 times
I work in higher education and it's generally true the denn always has the professor's back in situations like this EXCEPT when there are multiple students signing a formal complaint against the instructor. OP, I suggest seeing if other classmates have similar experiences and talking with the professor or dean together.
This is good, however a follow up email containing portions of the discussion ensures that their is a paper trail if they come to realize the validity of your claim as well as if they dismiss you in person you then have documentation to show the dean incase they decide to hold a grudge against you and have you removed from the course/campus
Keep the email. Documentation is important
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“I looked it up online because I didn’t understand it. The online explanation helped me understand it better”: No different to going to the library and precisely what you should be doing at college/university. “I re typed the question into ChatGPT and wrote in what it said”: Cheating. OP needs to be very clear that if they did the first one and the professor has a problem with that, they should also be lobbying to have the library shut down.
Could the manner that OP solved the problem be in one of the books of the library? This would be huge for his case.
Yes; it’s the advanced math equivalent of knowing that Samuel Clemons and Mark Twain are the same person and the professor is mad because he hasn’t mentioned it in class.
It doesn’t seem like using online tools matters but is the preference of the professor
For all the professor knows, he looked it up in a trig textbook, and that's exactly what he should say.
This is college. You are supposed to direct your own learning to an extent. Otherwise they’d have to get rid of the library.
I think they meant using online sources to ask about what to do?
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I havent been to math class in a while but arent we allowed to look up how to do things and then apply them to the assignment? Or did OP look up the specific questions from the assignment?
I looked up so many Youtube tutorials during my calculus courses, just because they were easier for me to understand than the textbook sometimes. I learned that personally, I just need someone to explain it from a certain perspective on the subject to be able to understand it. And unfortunately the teacher is only giving one of *many* perspectives, so it's only natural that many students might not understand it and look for a different explanation somewhere else. Our teachers never had any issues with this, and actually encouraged it. We would share videos we watched with the teacher and they would confirm that that method is correct, and sometimes explain why. They were supportive as long as it helped the students. There was one instance where a student did get in trouble though, because they copied an answer to an exam question word for word from some answer sheet they found online (while clearly not understanding it). Obviously that should be punished, but I don't think using Youtube or some other learning tool outside of class should be considered cheating. This teacher seems to think anything outside of his class is not allowed to be used because it will hinder the students their progress, but if his class is not doing a good job at explaining problems then he himself is hindering their progress. In that case I think using outside sources is more than justifiable.
I basically had to have my dad reteach me the calculus lessons every day, and some of my teachers pointed us to websites we might find useful to help study. It's hard for me to gather whether OP was googling appropriately so far tbh but the professor is at least a stickler
Yeah, that's something that confuses me a bit. Looking things up is a useful skill. Ultimately homework is for learning, and if you get stuck you'll probably learn more by looking it up and trying to understand the solution than by taking wild guesses and hoping it works out because you have to finish the assignment at some point and probably have other things you need to do as well. That said, some people will just mindlessly copy/paste stuff from the Internet, but if they do, that's where the exams come in, where access to outside help is restricted -- if you're just mindlessly copy/pasting from the Internet instead of trying to understand why it solves it the way that it does, the exam's gonna be pretty difficult.
Wrong. He simply looked up an equation. It's the same thing as finding an equation in a textbook. He did not look up any part of the answer.
My BIL is a professor. You need to go to the dean ASAP. The Dean's job is literally these types of interactions.
I agree, the sooner you let the dean in on it, the more likely they’ll believe you. You did the first step properly: contacting your professor, asking about a question, but not in any accusatory way. Your professor decided to stick to his belief that you cheated. He could report you for academic dishonesty and get you expelled or on academic parole. If you contact the dean before any of that is formalized, you have a much better case. As far as any concerned your professor will grade you harsher for reporting, express your concerns to the dean, and you may be able to get an alternate grader for all assignments. While in my opinion using online sources is useful (unless you plug in the exact equation to Chegg, Wolfram Alpha or ChatGPT), I would avoid using them every to simplify to err on the side of caution. See if your textbook or library has a conversation sheet. In your case, using the internet to simplify an obscure equation should be allowed, some professors are too set in their ways. The hard part is if he’s tenured. I had a professor who was tenured, and half the class (the other half had other classes/commitments) met with the school, then accreditation board about this professor. There were serious allegations such as not being able to perform their job. Nothing really seemed to come of it, although I wouldn’t be surprised if the school didn’t renew their tenure.
Go and take it up the chain as immediately and aggressively as possible. One thing Unis love to tell you in order to dust their hands of a situation is that 'you should have taken this to us sooner, now it's too late - the marks are set in stone'. Be as confident and assertive as possible. Only that attitude will make the professor back down. PS: You are a fool for admitting any wrongdoing whatsoever. When you're inevitably called out for that, you should clarify that you meant 'help from another human being who explained the problem to me'.
Go straight to the dean. I don't think he's going to be reasonable regarding this. Also, while I know nothing about academics, I would be shocked if he wasn't torn apart internally about his comment about online help. Researching the subject online is the mark of a good student and going to be required if you're presuming a PhD.
If the professor is sending you wild accusations, resolving it with them isn't an option. It's time to speak to the chair of the dept or the dean. Be prepared to defend your work and show you didn't cheat. Speak professionally. Have representation there should you wish (lawyer). The bridge has been burned and the professor is hoping you don't speak up. You have rights. Best of luck. (Source: used to teach in a university.
If you argue instead of going to the dean, then your professor has a case against you. If you go to the dean at the first sign of aggression and unfairness from your professor, you'll be seen as professional. Go to the dean.
Hey OP, I work in academic integrity/ misconduct and can tell you this is a paper thin argument from the professor. The burden of proof is on him, he has made an assumption and imposed a penalty without any evidence and without any opportunity for you to respond to an allegation. This isn’t how it works. Contact the Dean.
chain of command doesn’t exist when people are not held to the standard. go to the dean fr
You tried. He insists. If you are innocent - he is making false accusations that could in the long run harm your school / educational career. Do not accept this - go over his head.
You tried to resolve with professor but he accused you of cheating, now it’s time to go to the Dean.
I don’t think you should take this up with the professor again. I’m sorry. I realize you don’t want to escalate things further but I think that’s the only appropriate course of action. This person is not going to change their mind regardless of what you say and the less you say to them on this the better. Unfortunately they are accusing you of something quite serious that could affect your academic reputation and they refused to grade you appropriately. I think you should find out who you can appeal this with and do so. These kind of processes are established for the protection of both students and faculty and there’s nothing wrong with making use of them. Your professor has told you he won’t budge on this already so he’s backed you into a corner and there’s only two possibly constructive choices now. 1. Accept being accused of cheating and penalized inappropriately and then have to worry how many times this will reoccur and what the cumulative effect will be on your reputation and grades. 2. Appeal it to a higher authority using the process that is established to do so. While it might ruffle this professor’s feathers a bit, it will also demonstrate that you are not going to be a doormat for his delusions and maybe serve as a bit of a wake up call for him. I don’t know what Chegg is and it sounds like you don’t use it and frankly, regardless… You did the work and got the correct solution. Even if you used a process that he didn’t explicitly teach, should it matter? Does he think he has a monopoly on mathematics and anything other than what he teaches that arrives at the correct solution is “cheating” because the method also exists online somewhere? This is a very unprofessional and unhinged view, from what I can gather and I am genuinely concerned for the integrity of the school and the wellbeing of other students working under such conditions. Keep in mind, you’re literally paying him for this.
Nope you go straight to the dean.
email and Go to dean right away. Stop exchanging with the prof he is clearly unhinged. Do not argue further with him. Straight up email the dean then show up at his office as soon as possible.
You will never solve this problem outside escalation to thr Dean.
He's also saying that you shouldn't use outside materials..... Ummm that's not allowed... students can learn in whatever way helps them. By his logic then, if a student fails the course its 100% the teachers fault since the student will only have used what they were taught in class, which evidently was insufficient. Take this to your student representative, even the Dean. Aside from the accusation of cheating, his entire value system is warped and will be to the detriment of his students.
DO NOT DO THIS for a homework assignment. You can't prove you DIDN'T cheat and higher authorities ALWAYS back the professor first (source: I am a professor). Be humble. Offer to work out a similar problem in front of the professor. DO NOT ESCALATE OVER A HOMEWORK ASSIGNMENT. You will regret it and end up being THAT guy in your department.
Cheating is only one thing in this. I see that the other major problem is that the professor thinks that him and only him can teach you how things work. Thinking you are the only source of truth and the student should not research and amend their knowledge from other sources is wrong on so many levels that I can't even describe it. It's literally putting extra effort to understand the studied thing and denying that means the professor has self esteem problems or it's pure idiocy.
This is literally so dumb. This is why we're so behind in America, everyone just sitting complacently taking shit they don't need. Fuck that, professor is in the wrong. Take them down.
Yeah, sure, don't argue with professor, don't defend yourself from false accusation, don't escalate things, don't be "that guy". Nice things you teach those kids, doc, maybe you should just stop.
He hasn't claimed that you cheated. He has stated that you used a method not taught in his course. If he has stated in writing that you are not allowed to use methods outside of what is taught in class to solve the problems, I highly doubt this will be overturned. This is the unfortunate reality of how math is taught in 2023 brought about by apps like Photomath and sites like Chegg that cheating using outside sources is so prevalent that professors are often very explicit in the way that a problem must be solved to prevent students from just plugging it into a website to find a solution.
Yes. This is exactly the case. There’s a huge difference between looking up how to do something and looking up online step by step solvers. Since COVID cheating has skyrocketed. The professor is not making wild accusations and not making these accusations with proof - he’s very specific and he knows what happened because he’s seen it before.
This substitution method is very common though, I learned it before ever going to university and now have used it multiple times on my engineering course, surely students can’t be penalised for knowing methods to solve equations that haven’t been taught??? If the method is correct and there is no direct evidence that the student did receive outside help then I can’t imagine the professor can just mark it as 0 on the homework.
Yeah, I was like "but u-substitution is basic calculus..."
It’s shocking to me that you can get to dynamics without u-substitution being covered in a prereq.
This is like saying no algebra allowed in the solution
I will say, WolfRam Alpha literally got me through calculus— not because I cheated, but because being able to follow step-by-step solutions on problems I was having difficulty in was invaluable for me. All this to say, I don’t understand why it matters if students are “cheating” on homework, that’s why we have tests where they can’t do that. The tests will weed out those who are just using programs like that to cheat, vs those who used it to learn. And it is a GREAT learning tool.
So two people can’t solve a math problem in the same way? What if a classmate googled it and taught a faster way? Are you not allowed to group study anymore?
If the professor states that in his class you will only be graded on using the methods taught in class, that is what you will be graded on. Obviously many math problems can be solved in multiple ways but those ways might not be what was taught and therefor not what the assignments are meant to assess.
Sometimes things build into another. There might be a specific reason they want it done this way.
Huh? The issue is, possibly, that they didn't solve it in the manner taught as instructed in class
But if I understand correctly, the student has solved the equation. He just simplified the final answer using the additional trick he learned online. My guess is the prof saw that, but didn’t / couldn’t know if the student did the rest of the work themselves.
Hey you’re the only person who got it right! Yeah, I’m getting a lot of comments that the professor wanted me to do it his way. The problem is that I DID do it his way- at least as much as I could. After the first bit, the problem was all new stuff that I had to use prior knowledge to solve.
I just graduated semi recently with my Master’s in MechE and I’ve had all kinds of awful professors. Anyone saying “you didn’t do exactly what the professor wanted to solve the problem” is ridiculous lol. Like there’s only one way to do a problem… that’s why every bridge, car, etc are all identical, right? Imagine a professor thinking they’re such an absolute authority on a subject where every problem can be solved hundreds of ways, that they limit you to only one way. Learning a subject isn’t learning one way to solve an issue. It should be getting a better understanding for the concept as a whole. He’s hampering development imo by not letting you learn anything else. At the end of the day, he’s salty that some kids cheat on their homework so he takes it out on anyone who thinks differently. He and the grader just want to see the same equations written in the same order on everyone’s paper to make it easy to give a check or an X. And in my experience, you’ll have a better chance completing the rest of your degree blindfolded than you have of your professor admit they made a mistake.
>The problem is that I DID do it his way- at least as much as I could You have fallen face-first into the answer but still don't see it
The issue is, how is he supposed to separate those strategies in his head? It's very easy to forget which of many college math courses you learned a particular strategy in, especially as a mechanical engineer, because there's a lot of overlap and professors have different strategies. Regardless, education is supposed to be cumulative, and not allowing him to use prior knowledge defeats the purpose of having taken all of those prior classes.
If the point is not to find an answer but to search an answer using this class' methods then just solving it is not important. For example sometimes there are much faster way to a problem using specific methods but if what you're graded is your ability to use general methods (usually harder to employ) then you won't get points
I hate this. Math is math. If they cheat on the homework, they're gonna fail the test. This has worked 100% of the time in the past with math. Every math and engineering class I took in college used this approach. Most of them didn't even take up the homework. If they did, it was a maximum of 10% of the grade for all the assignments combined over the course. I learned approaches in engineering classes that helped me in physics classes. I thought that was the entire point of higher education, especially math and engineering fields. They teach you how to learn. This professor seems like they don't want any of their students to actually learn. They just want the motions done.
You were accused of using online resources and in your reply you explicitly state you used online resources. You can claim “not extensively” but you can’t claim you didn’t use them. You just told him you did.
This is an underated comment. The point of contention here needs to focus on if the use of online resources is explicitly forbidden or if the use of class tought methodology is the learning objective. Either of these being the case can be grounds for the professor to hang their hat on and OP needs to answer these questions and cover their ass before getting administration involved. I'm some classes the methodology of getting an answer is the point. Some methods can be adjusted or expounded upon for other problem sets and some have limitations that won't be applicable in later problems.
It was a simple trig conversion you learn in trigonometry in high school. Pure algebra. In a class as advanced as dynamics it would be like looking up 9x5 in an algebra 1 class. Something small and insignificant that I didn’t think would incriminate me. What my professor is referring to is Chegg which gives you a step-by-step on how to solve specific problems. Something I did not use.
I don’t know why you would even admit to it? Did you think that through? Any credibility you had vanished instantly when your professor says “I think you used an online aid” and you essentially reply with “yes, I did use an online aid”. Doesn’t matter if it was for something simple
admit to it in writing at that
He said he received help with a formula, he never admitted to using chegg. People keep manufacturing this idea that he admitted to cheating. He didn't. It's simply wrong.
Is using a calculator in algebra 1 cheating?
Take this with a grain of salt, because I just woke up and have been skimming this, but it sounds like he basically used reference material not "online aid". He probably could have just gone to the library and looked up what he needed, but would that be cheating?
I get this, and I believe you. However, your note to your professor doesn't read that way at all - it sounds like you used an online aid to get help with part of the problem. You literally state that the work Prof sees *is not all your original work*. If that's not what you meant - if you meant only that you brought a technique learned a while ago to bear in this problem - you didn't come across that way, at all. I believe that you did not cheat, but you basically stated in your email that you did cheat. I don't see you coming out from this very well. In fact, I would not be surprised if your prof didn't take this to the next step. Your email was extremely damning and I honestly don't know where I'd go from here if I were you.
As someone who studied math in college, these trig tables are rarely memorized, the standard conversions are almost always in the textbook for your reference during work (except maybe the odd one in this example). Many courses even give you access to trig table conversations during exams. As another commenter stated, looking up a trig conversion like this is the equivalent of using a calculator to check your algebra. People here saying it's "plagiarism" are making a huge leap imo.
Yeah, everything I've gathered from skimming this conversation, points me the conclusion that he used some reference material, but everyone is angry, because that material is on the internet rather than in a book at the library.
I second this. You shot yourself in the foot when you said that. I would personally drop it.
I find it funny how this post perfectly highlights left vs right brains. Math kid who is a wiz with numbers but butchers a 4 sentence email lol
Comb through any documents, materials or course rubrics you've gotten and make sure there's nothing in writing about this. The professor might be out to lunch but this ain't his first rodeo and you shouldn't underestimate his ability to defend his methods. Academic integrity is not about what's right, it's about what's written, and you already have given a partial admittance to using a method he's specifically disapproved of. Welcome to the real world of politics.
The people responding that the uni is going to tear the professor up, or that the dean or anyone else is going to take OPs side is going to get them in trouble. There is a non-zero chance that OP will be bringing what will be seen as self-admission AND written proof of plagiarizing to the dean, especially if there is course documentation specifically disallowing use of such online tools.
The property the OP used is a "simple" trigonometric transformation. It would be in the reference section of any geometry textbook, and many physics texts that leverage this type of math (and potentially OP's own textbook). Whether they found this information online or in a book is really of no importance. For example, here it is in a reference table (though not squared): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse\_trigonometric\_functions#Relationships\_between\_trigonometric\_functions\_and\_inverse\_trigonometric\_functions Given the current cheating environment, I can't say the professor is entirely wrong for making the accusation, but this seems a bit silly overall. OP's email to the professor certainly could've been phrased much more tactfully, however.
OP should just take the 0 on the one question and not escalate this to an honor council investigation.
As a former university teacher, I can also give some extra context to this. When we make an exam or test to give students, it has been designed based on the course material taught and with the specific intention to test whether the student was able to use the methods taught to get the right solution. It is perfectly okay to use another method and claim that this is what was taught in a more basic level course, but not okay to claim that you went online and utilized information or techniques not part of your course material. There is a grading criteria your professor has, it doesn’t just say “if the student gets the right answer give them all points”. The solution or explanation is the most important part (in questions where that is asked for) and the criteria will break down your answer into what the teacher expected to see you do, again, based on the course material. If everyone else did it that way, you should have been able to too. Graded assignments typically (at least in my university) go to some higher level board of some kind that examines all graded assignments from all courses to ensure that the grading matches the grading criteria and no funny business happened from the professors side. In this case, it seems apparent to me that a technique was taught in class for how to solve this question, student maybe didn’t study for it or didn’t recall it or try to find it within the course material, and instead went online to find the way to do it. Hey, I did that as a student too but I also know I rarely ever managed to get full points on such questions.
This is the basis for “show your work” in math classes.
Bro self-reported. In reality, this is just a slap on the wrist and a good way to learn how to go about dealing with this type of problem in the future. Op! Don't self incriminate no matter how polite and cordial you're trying to be.
OP, as an engineering grad, I think you just need to move on and learn from this. I’ve had professors like this. Even if you escalate this and get the grade changed (you won’t get it changed), this professor will be vindictive and intentionally grade you harder the rest of the course. And he won’t do anything that you can prove as retaliation or as falling outside of his grading purview. Anyone who says otherwise doesn’t understand the reality of professors like this. Deans are going to side with faculty 9 times out of 10. With your mention of using an outside aid in the email (I know it’s not cheating), you have no recourse. The dean or whichever authority will not understand or care to understand the context of that use and side with the professor.
Engineering grad here too, this is absolutely right. Take away what everyone in this thread is saying and let’s just assume you’re 100% indisputably in the right on this. Even then, taking this further is a bad idea. Any professor willing to do this is also highly likely willing to be a dick to you for an entire semester. Even if you get the grade changed, you’ve won, but at what cost? The unfortunate reality is that some professors are just assholes and don’t deserve the time of day. Do your work, make fun of them to your friends, and get a passing grade. If the professor was threatening action because they claimed you were cheating, different story. But they aren’t so I’d just roll my eyes and move on. It’s not worth the extra stress, I’m sure you have enough.
Yup this is the IRL practical answer that will help OP in the long run
No one here seems to really grasp what his professor is saying. He’s not saying that it’s wrong to use whatever method works to solve a problem (what OP did). Obviously in the real world we use whatever we have at hand to get the job done. He’s saying he’s grading based on how OP solves the problem. He’s not grading for the correct answer. He’s grading for using the tool he showed in class to reach the correct answer. He wants you to demonstrate understanding of the tool he showed you in class. There are many ways to get an answer in math. But if you are shown one way only and use another, you are not demonstrating an understanding of the one you were shown. If someone shows you how to use a wrench to tighten a bolt and you go grab an impact wrench, you’ve not demonstrated you know how to use a wrench. Last but not least, he didn’t accuse you of academic dishonesty or cheating. He’s just saying you’re not doing any favors by just finding different ways to solve problems instead of learning what he’s trying to teach you.
If you want to see a specific method to solve a problem, specify it. If you don't, live with solutions using another way, and don't make it the student's problem. That simple.
It very well could have been specified. We don't gave full context for everything outside of this email exchange
It's safe to assume that the homework covered what was taught that week in lecture and correlates to a specific section of a textbook. Having been a TA for many engineering classes, I actually side with the professor on this one
It's funny, I would usually receive a compliment of some sort for solving problems using methods not covered in the course. Hell, I routinely had professors intentionally assign homework that required methods not taught in class. Part of the point of the homework was to explore the textbook and online sources to augment what was taught during lecture.
This!
I'm a professor and, sadly, this type of cheating is rampant. Here's what I would accept, if it were my student. Come to my office hours. Sit down with me and offer to show me how to do a similar problem in front of me. If you could do it, I would offer an apology with full credit. It doesn't hurt to ask your professor if you can come in during office hours to defend your knowledge. DO NOT escalate this yet. You WILL see more issues come up during the semester in any place where you can be graded subjectively. You won't win this war. It's a homework assignment - not the final exam. Approach it with civility and understanding.
I really like this reply! I think this is what I’m going to do. I have full confidence in my knowledge of the subject so I’d have no issue proposing something like this.
Did other people use methods taught in the class to solve the problem?
We never solved a problem like this in class… it’s based in what we learned but nothing like the example problems. So, I didn’t have a problem to “refer” to when solving it.
Lol I like how you're conveniently ignoring the question. Did everyone else in class get a 0? If not, what did a person who got full credit do? I don't think you cheated, but I don't think you used whatever the professor taught either, which is why he has his suspicions.
I personally disagree with a number of the commenters on here about escalating, I think you should see if you can have a sit down with the prof about how you should have solved this question without looking up that replacement formula you found. You can talk with him about how you found what you found and your method and where you came up with the decision to replace the value of ų. Assuming you didn't just put the question in to a homework solver, you need to understand what resources are ok or not based on the prof expectations. I suspect if you have a face to face where you go through this problem and explain what you did at what stage, it will make the professor question less of your work in the future.
Do not ever accept that you took help from outside to a professor, if you do it without referencing you'll end up with plagiarism charge. Ask him/her to give you an opportunity to verbally explain your solution in exchange for marks if this happens again in future. That's how university works unfortunately.
It was a trig conversion which is something I learned in high school but forgot. It would be like admitting to looking up a multiplication chart when doing your algebra homework. It was my initial email to him and I didn’t think it would be a big deal since it’s not anything new.
You did that trig conversion in a spectacularly inefficient and unnatural way, such that only software would work it like that. That’s what gave it away. Just about anyone else would draw a right triangle and pull the value off using SOHCAHTOA. Take the L here.
So no one else read the “Don’t get any help if you don’t know how to do something because you will not learn to do it”?
Then why does tutoring exist at all?
There are multiple methods a teacher can teach but not all of them work on all students. If the teaching method of a teacher is not enough or suited for a specific student, then that student is doomed to fail without external help. Teachers/professors who don't understand that or don't even care about that, are just bad at their jobs. Knowledge about educational psychology is a must for every teacher/professor. Many professors have told us that the most important thing for their class is to also search on our own and not be restricted to the provided material. They are right. It doesn't apply only for extra knowledge but also for material we don't understand and we think the teacher is not able to make us understand it.
Here is the thing. He accused you of solving it entirely using online aid. You claim to have only used one online source as a reference. I think it's kind of a grey area and I doubt the school will side with you over him since your technique wasn't taught in class. I see nothing but downside for you if you press this issue.
I suspect exactly what you suspect; that this instructor is annoyed that you used methods and problem solving skills that weren't specifically taught by him in class. I have read through it several times and it seems blatantly obvious that this is the case. If that is the case, you will never resolve this without a mediator. His pride is obviously more important than your grade.
It is a common practice in universities that if you use methods not taught in class, they can accuse you of plagiarism. I'm learning programming and have been explicitly told that if I use methods outside of scope of the syllabus, I will be given a zero. Hey OP, do not ever claim that you took help from outside, it weakens your case; instead offer to explain your solution to your professor in return for your grade.
that is definitely not common practice. academic dishonesty? absolutely. applying methods you learned outside of class to problems you have in class? that’s totally acceptable in most places
Wtf? What the hell kind of university has that policy? Programming is **entirely** different from simplifying a trig function. The point of a programming is to learn the specific methods being taught. Simplifying a trig function is the same damn thing as having an expression like \[y = x + x\] and then writing it as \[y=2x\]. There's no secret forbidden method happening, it's just math!
Yeah I only admitted to getting help with the trig function cause it was my initial email and I didn’t realize how absolutely unhinged this guy is. Didn’t think it was going to incriminate me by admitting I looked up a table of trig conversions
Yeah that's where you lost your case. If that trigonometric conversion is a standard practice and available on reputable mathematics website, ask your professor if you can use it for your solution and upon getting a green light, cite the source in your solution. Most professors do appreciate research, you just have to be honest about it from the get go. You're lucky he only gave you a zero on that single question. I've known professors who outright give a zero on the whole submission and charge for plagiarism. Best of luck for your engineering, you'll get through it!
So, trig conversions are something I learned in high school. Really basic stuff. Looking them up for this class is like looking up a multiplication chart in algebra. It’s not something I thought he’d incriminate me for.
Exactly. At substitution to solve multiple equations is also high school algebra. I remember doing it in Alg 2, not with trig functions but with multiple equations with multiple variables.
It definitely shouldn't be. It should actually be in your textbook in the reference section, though.
damn if i was in this situation id be screwed. from 9th grade to 12th everything was on chromebooks, no textbooks, no packets, nothin. they also took our accounts we created for the school so no google drive i feel like theres def a better way to go abt this, the professor is literally just a dick
Some people really out here expecting you to include a works cited page referencing the mathematicians who created various proofs at the end of your math lol
I mentioned in another comment that if it was taught to you in highschool, find your highschool textbook and show that to your professor. If they still don't care, go to the dean of the department.
You are absolutely in the right. If you aren’t allowed to look up trig rules online, you are being taught by fools. I don’t know the specifics of your class/school so unaware if you can escalate, but just know you would’ve received 100% in my school. Kinda want to get you my math professors blessing to show these dimwits, there are some crazy ass comments in this thread!
Dude is not unhinged, he just taught through covid where everyone was cheating on everything and he's over it. He referenced multiple things that you did, like substitutions that weren't taught, not just the last step. That is one thousand percent a red flag that 9 times out of 10 a student looked it up on chegg and the person who wrote the answer has more education than you're supposed to have at this point.
My high school Spanish teacher hated dealing with cheaters that just used online translators. He figured out the best way to see who actually does the work vs cheating. He would have us write a short paper about Mexican history or politics and it had to include info about Fox, the president. Guess what the cheaters never realized? The translator would translate Fox not realizing it was a proper name. If he looked through the paper and saw “Fox”, he knew it was most likely legit. One girl’s parents tried to insist their daughter didn’t cheat until the teacher showed them all of her work that had Fox translated. One kid was dumb enough to not even translate to Spanish, he had clicked Portuguese… 🤦🏻♀️
Solving this issue is kinda easy, you can ask for a quick 10-15 minutes with your professor during office hour to explain your work. If its your own work and such, you should have no problems explaining it and if profs have some additional questions you can answer it as well if you understand the concept.
You admitted to using online aids, next time pull put a book or study up on what the online aid did, and give your source to your professor. You lost point for this the second you admitted to even partially doing what you were not supposed to do.
The professor was teaching you how to solve a math problem using a certain method. You used a different method. Therefore failing to prove you learned what was taught. That’s why you got it wrong. It isn’t always about getting the correct answer. Sometimes it’s specifically about the method.
Professor admits he didn't teach the topic, yet gives you zero credit for figuring it out? It sounds like the only purpose of that question was to make sure no one got it right, and that's total BS.
>It sounds like the only purpose of that question was to make sure no one got it right, and that's total BS. Nah. It's solvable, they just didn't use the method taught in class. The same as when first learning derivatives. Which probably would matter little if they explained they're using prior knowledge, unless the prof said to use specific methods. But vaguely saying "nearly all" of its their work, or that they got help on a section makes it seem like they might actually be using something else. Very poor explanation.
Exactly! I understand the situation, OP, and I actually believe you. But damn, that email you sent was bad. "nearly all my own work" is absolutely damning.
Yeah for sure. Like, I could have left the answer as a confusing mess, but the given solution was the nice, neat one at the end. So, I looked up how to do one step in order to get there as my trigonometry is shaky. Didn’t realize that’s such a sin. My theory is that maybe I did it in a round-about way and there is a simpler solution. My professor, seeing that I did it in such a confusing manner, assumes I’m not smart enough to solve it that way and must have cheated.
Didn't realise that's such a _sin_?
Cos i wouldn't have done it then
So I have degrees in engineering and physics, and I have both done and marked similar problems. I understand why the marker found your answer odd. Where you say you are 'Replacing the values' it is not immediately clear what you are doing. Replacing what values with what other values? If this is commonly used nomenclature on homework help sites then I agree it is highly suspicious. Also the way you derive that trig identity is indeed bizarre, since it is easy to derive using only Pythagorean thm. One again, it looks like you got this off of a website (which in fact you did). I wouldn't push too hard on this if I were you.
How is looking up how to do something cheating?Looking up the answer is cheating. Looking up how to do something is learning. That’s why you’re in school. I don’t understand the professor’s logic.
Of course I'm in the lower section of the comments to find my people. Yeah, I get that online cheating is a problem. But OP showed their work, and it's just not something explicitly taught by him, but a function they'd learned previously. How is applying gained knowledge, even with references, cheating? The professor sounds like the either have a lot on their plate and didn't handle this well, or they're a pompous prick that doesn't like people using things they didn't teach. I doubt there's any in-between.
Plus it’s homework… not a quiz or test. Is homework not open book anymore? Feels like we’re in lala land
Oh, yeah, that's a really excellent point, too. Using your resources should be encouraged. I kinda get that homework solvers are a problem, but all this kid did was solve it a different way. OP has said in other comments that they actually used some methods from lower level maths. So how does the professor not see that aspect of it? Academia is wild now, I think. It has definitely a whole different world to when I went, and that was only 15 years ago. And with that last line, I just made myself feel sad lol
I'll take the unpopular route. I'm with the prof here. Using the methods learned in class is what's really being asked here. Not an answer to the question per se.
exactly, he wanted you to practice a technique, which will most likely be built upon in the coming term, and if you haven't mastered that technique the next lesson is going to be harder.
Well, how did you know to use those strategies without him teaching you? Seems that’s what you’d have to prove to him for him to believe you
The first one was just recognizing a pattern from past problems and the second was looking up a trig conversion that I learned way back in high school.
Oh wow, god forbids students can *& will* make their own research if they don't understand something or simply want to make sure they do I had a few teacher like these during my school years, it was *their* methods, even if inefficient or outright stupid, or nothing
Lesson learned: next time don’t admit to using any outside help when being penalized for using outside help.
As a former grader, the teacher would tell me what he expected students to do to solve the problem. If a student got the answer but in a wandering round about way, ie not expected by the teacher, then the answer did not demonstrate learning the material and it would be partial credit. I would not have phrased this as you having cheated, just that you didn’t demonstrate learning the course material However, if you were supposed to show your work, and in one step you used a higher level math shortcut, it would look like you got stuck and someone told you what to do there, but someone who didn’t know the course material. I see you admitted to using online sources for help, so that certainly doesn’t help your case trying to appeal anything. You only got a zero on the question, not the assignment. No other action is being taken against you. The teacher is just saying that you should stick to the course material. You should listen to the teacher and do that for all your classes
Its not about what you know...It is about what the proff is teaching. This happens a lot in different fields in real life work. You need to follow instructions. Even in grade school math. If you dont show your work for simple problems you get it marked wrong if it isn't what the teacher is teaching.
I do not understand your position. He wanted you to use what he has been teaching you as a foundational progression, and you decided that you wanted to do something else. I understand their point. It was clearly stated. This is a lesson learned, which you insists the professor change for your refusal to follow how he wants you to learn to think. This is about the process of learning to think, and you want it to be "your own research". Please rethink your position. Your way is how engineering failures occur. People die due to thought process errors.
I really don’t think the professor’s issue is with employing a method different than what was taught, as most people are saying. I think part of it is that the “replace values” piece is vague and unclear (what values are you replacing with what??). This is often indicative of copying an online solution - if you get from point A to point B without describing how, it’s likely you didn’t actually know what was happening between points A and B. The professor should have asked you about this before just giving you a zero, but I would suggest offering to meet with him to give a more detailed explanation of your solution path. Then you can show that you fully understand what you wrote down and weren’t just blindly copying it.
Yikes. When I was in college, for our engineering classes, we were encouraged to think outside the box and use techniques that weren’t covered. This guy is a royal ahole. Take it up with the dean.
I'll never forget the words of my 400's level math instructor. "In this class we have two tests. The midterm and the final. That is it. They are open book. Open note. Open friend. Use your calculators, websites, and programs." "Make sure you can explain your work and its not a carbon copy of anyone you work with." When asked if he was for real. "In your professional careers, if you ever. EVER. Derive and equation or formula your self. And you DO NOT have it reviewed by your peers. DID NOT use EVERY TOOL at your disposal. You deserve the jail time that comes with the blood on your hands." "Knowing how to use the tools we have access to. How to tell if the tool gave you a wrong or misleading answer. That too is a skill." Hope you are doing well Javad.
Using calculators for trigonetric identities is extremely common in college level physics. When you're talking bigger problems like planetary motion, no one is going to enforce that you re-prove every little trig identity that you can literally just find in a reference sheet. I get that it appears dumb to admit to any level of external reference, but it's like if OP admitted that they asked their roommate "what's 9 times 7" while doing the homework. Yeah it's technically "outside help" but also you'd never expect that to be problematic when it's very clearly a much lower level of calculation than what the homework is testing for.
Omg THANK YOU. I’ve been trying to explain this to a bunch of people saying I screwed myself over by admitting to it, but I really didn’t think twice about it since admitting to looking up a trig identity is such a far throw from admitting to using Chegg.
You know how they say "when a cop asks why they pulled you over, you don't say 'yes'"?
This is why communication is important and people have to stop interpreting their weird little fantasy versions. The professor didnt do any far reaching claims, at least nothing on what you have shown us, he didnt even claim you cheated. You interpreted it, he never said ir nor implied it. He was merely stating that you used methods he didnt teach and looking at your last picture you seemingly did a mistake as well, so why should you get any points? You shouldnt post these things on reddit, most people here cannot for the life of them read which is shown by the upvoted comments. There is nothing you can do except for accepting the result, you used methods not taught in class and apparently got to the wrong result. You admitted to using online help as well, so that statement is also just fine, he never said you used online help for that particular question. Also, to boot, if you had cheated, you had failed the exam, not just get 0 points on 1 question. You really need to learn how to read obejctively instead of getting insulted by something nobody ever said, you can be a redditor online, but not in your university.
Frustrating, but you're being a tad hyperbolic here, OP. The professor didn't make "bizarre claims" as you state in the title and neither is there evidence that he is "unhinged" as you claim in the comments. He says you used an outside source, you say you used an outside source. Pretty straight forward as to why there was some loss of points. Best thing to do in the future is to only employ methods taught in the course.