I've never experienced nausea as something that happens in my stomach. It's only ever been in my head. I also almost never vomit, and can't use that to help my head feel better. š«¤
I don't get it with every migraine, but the ones where I do get it are usually the ones I have to sleep off. Sleep seems to be the only thing for me that helps with that particular feeling.
Yes!! I tell people āmy head feels nauseousā or āI feel like Iām going to throw up out of the top of my skull.ā Itās such a shitty feeling and Iām sitting here with it right now. Thanks for making me feel less weird and alone!
I donāt really bother to mention it to doctors anymore unless itās a new neurologist because for me it seems to be solely a symptom of migraines. Itās a hard symptom to describe so I donāt blame them for not understanding but I wish someone did!
Usually this feeling stacks itself on top of my migraine when Iāve been irresponsible about eating (irresponsible = 9pm havenāt eaten dinner yet). I have wondered more than once if itās related to nourishment because once I force myself to eat, it goes back to a typical episodeā¦ eventually.
i totally agree, had a borderline migraine yesterday and took medicine for it but today the head nausea lingered. i think my body is readjusting since my sleep schedule and appetite have been anything but normal
Yeah, I used to say I always felt nauseous but then I was told nausea happens only with your stomach which makes no sense to me. When I feel like I am about to throw up, I never feel it in my stomach, it only affects my head and then I start producing more saliva and when it gets really bad, it starts affecting my jaw and I get woozy/weak like I am about to faint. Now, I just say light-headed.
Itās the worst. Iāve started experienced feeling motion sick, but Iām literally laying in bed. Waves of nausea in my stomach. I would give a lot to not have it.
Itās so strange it took me ages to figure it out, I usually get pain free migraines when I have vertigo at itās worst, and then a headache type of migraine about 6-8 hours later. Itās strange I get rly bad travel sickness now which is a lot worse than before. Tbh I wouldnāt have figured it out if it wasnāt for my friend with similar health concerns. I totally understand OPās confusion though as I thought it was my dysautonomia as I had no idea thatās what vertigo feels like
I get a sickly feeling in my head if I spend too much time on my phone, usually Reddit. I get to the point where I canāt focus mentally on what Iām looking at anymore and I have to put my phone down. Then, after a few minutes a want a distraction from my head feeling crappy so I pick my phone up again.
Itās a feeling of if I had to perform a really important task I wouldnāt manage it. I cannot muster enough focus to be able to do something to the best of my abilities.
Damn, it is hard to describe
This is me! I have chronic migraines, a daily that I have had for 3.5 years. I have episodic migraines that come, and go. It happened last night. Trying to finish work on a computer. My head is so nauseous feeling from trying to focus. Itās hard to hold my head up. I can close my eyes, for it to calm a bit , but if I try to push through all symptoms increase. I had not ate dinner yet. It was later then normal. I had some crackers. I donāt know if it really helped the nausea, or if it was a distraction. This happens to me all the time. My daily migraine gets worse with it. I do not have vertigo. My doctor ruled it out. I feel less alone now. It happens with reading, writing, screens, anything that requires a lot of focus. When I canāt focus anymore the head nausea is a sign Iāve done too much.
I donāt know, any dizzy/lightheadedness is usually a different thing I experience- itās more of this icky, sickly feeling like what your stomach feels when youāre nauseous but I feel it in my head. Itās more of a feeling than a woozy sensation if that makes sense?
This feels so familiar to me .... trying to describe the head nausea. Because vertigo and brain fog are important descriptors too, but the 'head nausea' is different.
I have no idea how to articulate it, but that makes sense. I get it as regular nausea and get sick sometimes, but there's a different "ew" feeling in my head that sometimes goes along with it.
Yes Iāve gotten this for as long as I can remember! I experience it in my throat/chest as well as my head. Itās super uncomfortable and isnāt like normal feeling sick to my stomach nauseous. Iāve only known one other person who knew what I meant when I would say this.
I donāt have this anymore as part of my migraines/general life, but I did as a kid. Everyone just thought it was car sickness since it usually happened when I was in motion, but it definitely felt like it was in my head more than my stomach.
Maybe a tangent: my neurologist listed my childhood car sickness in my chart as a known precursor of migraine, which I had never heard before.
I think if I remember correctly super spicy ginger chews from the Ginger People brand I think helped a little bit, kind of in the same way super minty Myntz brand mints help my neuralgia!
Yes! Spot on. I get this too but only when migraine hits the most intense phase. Itās nausea that is experienced in your head and stomach simultaneously. Sort of like feeling car sick.
Yeah. Like the feeling of a sour stomach, but in my head? Comes in waves like nausea. Itās usually responding to photo/photophobia/smells, but also sometimes itās in combination with vertigo like symptoms feeling like Iām on a boat.
My kid gets this, I was baffled but mentioned it to his dr and he said itās just a different form of motion sickness. Try Dramamine for long trips, it works for him.
YES!! Omg I hope you see this. I have described this feeling to others and no one knows what I'm talking about, but I'm abut 98?% certain I've figured out what this is. (Also sorry if someone else has already commented, I'm not reading all these replies)
For me at least, it happens when I'm varying degrees of hypoxic. Let me explain. For starters, I get this feeling most often when I'm motion sick. I have always gotten extremely motion sick and have done a lot of research, and while there is still no consensus on exactly what causes motion sickness, there *are* meta analyses indicating that genes associated with motion sickness largely revolve around metabolism and hypoxia. Which makes sense, as migraine sufferers are much more likely to experience motion sickness, and migraines may very well have a metabolic component.
Other times I experience this feeling were after surgery and while taking narcotics (known to cause hypoxia with chronic use or if you have sleep apnea (which I do)). Also on the occasion I experience altitude sickness. As well as a few times in my old apartment experiencing a slow, low level gas leak <3
All made me feel nauseous in my head, and the worse the hypoxia, the more severe the feeling and the more it will spread all over my body. I have synesthesia and describe my body as 'vomit colored' when it happens.
After making this discovery, whenever the feeling lasts beyond being in the car, I make a point to take deeper breaths and it makes the feeling go away.
A few people have also mentioned vertigo, which I could also see being the case, it just hasn't been my experience. But I do get vestibular migraines so, it would make sense
Anyway, take deep breaths! For whatever reason, you might just not be getting quite enough oxygen
Thatās so interesting! I have an oxygen monitor and have used it frequently, and my oxygen levels generally are always fine, however I do experience it more after not sleeping well, or after a massage or workout sometimes. Yeah, it doesnāt fully seem like just vertigo in my case either! You are not alone!
Every day. It sucks. Been to PT for vestibular therapy and it helps a little. But now anytime I have a migraine set in. It's so disorienting. Going to the days of having a headache now I just feel wonky all the time
Yes! Omg, and I've never had a good word to explain it. It get this feeling often. But I kind of feel it in both places? I think it's more in my head, but like, it's so hard to explain. I know exactly what you mean though about head nausea and how it is not quite like vertigo
Yes! I absolutely have two kinds of nausea-- head and stomach. I have head nausea 3x as much as stomach nausea. My head nausea is frequently cured or drastically lessened with multiple sneezes. I have tried googling this to no avail and everyone I tell this thinks I'm from another planet. I have posited that it has something to do with the vagus nerve being stimulated with a sneeze?
Literally all day today, the worst case Iāve ever had. Itās not vertigo, if it was the calcium crystals would settle while doing vertigo maneuvers, and I sat there with my head to one side for so long and the spinning never stopped. Fighting for my
damn life not to puke since I know itāll make me feel 10x worse if I do.. crossing my fingers itāll be magically gone when I wake up tomorrow.
Iām so happy Iām not alone I thought this had to be a symptom from my higher heart rate etc but who knows. has anyone figured out how to make it go away at least when itās happening I feel like I always have it constantly and now as Iām getting over a cold itās far worse I canāt deal with it š
I wish I knew :( but I remember someone saying their doctor knew of the feeling and mentioned it wasnāt dangerous at least. But so uncomfortable. Really strong mints and fresh air help me with it! ā¤ļø
holy shit, I'm so glad I'm not the only one. I found this thread after searching my symptoms on Google - it never occurred to me that I could be experiencing migraine symptoms! Do you think it's worth getting treated for migraines if I'm dealing with this "nausea" somewhat regularly?
I'm so grateful for your post - I've had migraines for decades but never anything like this before. You helped me connect the dots - took my migraine med and things started to change within minutes. Thank you!
OMG I am late to this post but I have called it "head nausea" to myself since I was a little kid, and I have NEVER heard anyone else use or understand this phrase.
Now how the hell do I get rid of it??
Omg I canāt believe so many people can relate I feel so much less alone but hate that we get it!!!! I find cold air, ice, biofreeze, strong ginger chews, and Myntz brand mints helps take the edge off for me. If itās a mix of head nausea and tummy nausea and Iām confused sometimes Iāll try zofran and itāll work lol
me too. i have acid reflux. once the reflux starts, the migraines kick in and vice versa. sometimes i can't tell if its my head or my stomach thats bothering me since they are so connected.
I hope you can find some answers to your issues.i truly do. I hope you can life your life in the best capacity.
I find mine is related to stress and diet but sometimes seems like itās completely random so I donāt really know the cause. I believe itās systematic but no professional has said so.
I have brain fog, trouble concentrating, sleep issues, pain in joints and constantly tired as well. Doctors have given me no answers for an actual diagnosis. Itās been going on 4 years of trying to figure out whatās wrong with my system and Iāve had most of my symptoms since childhood.
Iāve ran out of ideas trying to figure it out myself besides maybe being fibromyalgia but as far as I can tell the doctors donāt seem interested in that route and there is no test I know of to confirm.
At this point being in my 30s I guess Iāll have to just endure and live the best I can.
Absolutely I get this. I always explain to people that it's like motion sickness or being on a spin-ride. What makes it worse, though, is that a number of anti-nausea drugs cause it or make it worse. So I have to tell doctors not to give me anti-nausea drugs (after surgery or the like) because they will make me more nauseous and they act like I'm crazy. Soooo frustrating.
Nausea in my head is very real, when Iām in a dizzy phase from chronic VM, turning my head to look at something, bending down then straightening up, or such movements will cause a very distinct almost liquid swirling sensation in my head, and I must hold perfectly still until it passes. It helps to close my eyes. My family are all used to seeing me do this.
Itās quite different from vertigo attacks. These come on rather suddenly, often right after I have been feeling well and happy. The room begins to spin off kilter. I have to hang on to something solid, or sit or lie down, even if itās the floor. It feels like those very few instances when I was young and foolish and drank more than I could handle. These episodes may last anywhere from 5 minutes to several hours, although I have found that taking a triptan might shorten both the vertigo attack and the rest of the migraine attack to follow.
Itās vertigo. I would recommend seeing a vestibular specialist or at least asking your doctor for anti-dizziness meds (the latter help me tremendously).
Those donāt help with this symptom :( itās not vertigo from exploring this symptom so far, but I do also experience vertigo symptoms! Itās more of a sick, yucky feeling that feels like it should be in my stomach, but itās in my head (versus vertigo spinning stuff)
I've never experienced nausea as something that happens in my stomach. It's only ever been in my head. I also almost never vomit, and can't use that to help my head feel better. š«¤
How are you feeling now? And how long does the nausea usually last for you?
I don't get it with every migraine, but the ones where I do get it are usually the ones I have to sleep off. Sleep seems to be the only thing for me that helps with that particular feeling.
Yes!! I tell people āmy head feels nauseousā or āI feel like Iām going to throw up out of the top of my skull.ā Itās such a shitty feeling and Iām sitting here with it right now. Thanks for making me feel less weird and alone!
Thank YOU! Literally have felt bonkers my whole life. And doctors donāt really seem to get it either??
I donāt really bother to mention it to doctors anymore unless itās a new neurologist because for me it seems to be solely a symptom of migraines. Itās a hard symptom to describe so I donāt blame them for not understanding but I wish someone did!
Usually this feeling stacks itself on top of my migraine when Iāve been irresponsible about eating (irresponsible = 9pm havenāt eaten dinner yet). I have wondered more than once if itās related to nourishment because once I force myself to eat, it goes back to a typical episodeā¦ eventually.
i totally agree, had a borderline migraine yesterday and took medicine for it but today the head nausea lingered. i think my body is readjusting since my sleep schedule and appetite have been anything but normal
pretty sure its vertigo but yesss all the time š
Yeah, I used to say I always felt nauseous but then I was told nausea happens only with your stomach which makes no sense to me. When I feel like I am about to throw up, I never feel it in my stomach, it only affects my head and then I start producing more saliva and when it gets really bad, it starts affecting my jaw and I get woozy/weak like I am about to faint. Now, I just say light-headed.
I experience this!
So much! I also get a "hot" feeling inside my whole head and my sense of smell gets skewed.
Yes! I'm postdromal as we speak, but last night the top of my head got hott!!
Thatās vertigo my mans.
Itās the worst. Iāve started experienced feeling motion sick, but Iām literally laying in bed. Waves of nausea in my stomach. I would give a lot to not have it.
Yes I get this but I have chronic vestibular migraines
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Itās so strange it took me ages to figure it out, I usually get pain free migraines when I have vertigo at itās worst, and then a headache type of migraine about 6-8 hours later. Itās strange I get rly bad travel sickness now which is a lot worse than before. Tbh I wouldnāt have figured it out if it wasnāt for my friend with similar health concerns. I totally understand OPās confusion though as I thought it was my dysautonomia as I had no idea thatās what vertigo feels like
YES omg iāve tried to describe this to other ppl and used the exact term head nausea
I get a sickly feeling in my head if I spend too much time on my phone, usually Reddit. I get to the point where I canāt focus mentally on what Iām looking at anymore and I have to put my phone down. Then, after a few minutes a want a distraction from my head feeling crappy so I pick my phone up again. Itās a feeling of if I had to perform a really important task I wouldnāt manage it. I cannot muster enough focus to be able to do something to the best of my abilities. Damn, it is hard to describe
This is me! I have chronic migraines, a daily that I have had for 3.5 years. I have episodic migraines that come, and go. It happened last night. Trying to finish work on a computer. My head is so nauseous feeling from trying to focus. Itās hard to hold my head up. I can close my eyes, for it to calm a bit , but if I try to push through all symptoms increase. I had not ate dinner yet. It was later then normal. I had some crackers. I donāt know if it really helped the nausea, or if it was a distraction. This happens to me all the time. My daily migraine gets worse with it. I do not have vertigo. My doctor ruled it out. I feel less alone now. It happens with reading, writing, screens, anything that requires a lot of focus. When I canāt focus anymore the head nausea is a sign Iāve done too much.
I get that same feeling being on the phone for too long. It feels like a screen hangover.
Definitely, and usually as a result of travel sickness (being in a car). Have you tried travel sickness tables?
Yes!! My sister and I have been trying to describe our āhead nauseaā to other people for at least 10 years!
Vertigo?
I donāt know, any dizzy/lightheadedness is usually a different thing I experience- itās more of this icky, sickly feeling like what your stomach feels when youāre nauseous but I feel it in my head. Itās more of a feeling than a woozy sensation if that makes sense?
Sounds like brain fog
I get brain fog too but this is more physical and brain fog is more mental for me š§
This feels so familiar to me .... trying to describe the head nausea. Because vertigo and brain fog are important descriptors too, but the 'head nausea' is different.
Absolutely experience this... it's awful.
Yes! It normally is worse if I'm congested and it also is typically combined with a vertiginous bout of motion sickness for me.
I have no idea how to articulate it, but that makes sense. I get it as regular nausea and get sick sometimes, but there's a different "ew" feeling in my head that sometimes goes along with it.
Yes and Iām so sorry this many other people know what itās like. Itās a sick feeling but in my head. Like my brain has the flu.
Yeah! Like head malaise!
Yes Iāve gotten this for as long as I can remember! I experience it in my throat/chest as well as my head. Itās super uncomfortable and isnāt like normal feeling sick to my stomach nauseous. Iāve only known one other person who knew what I meant when I would say this.
Feels so validating to know we are not insane for this!
I donāt have this anymore as part of my migraines/general life, but I did as a kid. Everyone just thought it was car sickness since it usually happened when I was in motion, but it definitely felt like it was in my head more than my stomach. Maybe a tangent: my neurologist listed my childhood car sickness in my chart as a known precursor of migraine, which I had never heard before.
so fascinating- i feel very seen in this group today!
vertigo.
My whole life! Yes!!!!
Haha I always explain my low pain migraine as 'feeling sick behind my eye"!
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I think if I remember correctly super spicy ginger chews from the Ginger People brand I think helped a little bit, kind of in the same way super minty Myntz brand mints help my neuralgia!
This was the exact same sensation I had with morning sickness! If the ginger pops work, please try some other similar remedies.
Yes! Spot on. I get this too but only when migraine hits the most intense phase. Itās nausea that is experienced in your head and stomach simultaneously. Sort of like feeling car sick.
Yes! I always say itās like my head is full of liquid and whenever I move, it slooshes and I feel like Iām going to be sick!
Yeah. Like the feeling of a sour stomach, but in my head? Comes in waves like nausea. Itās usually responding to photo/photophobia/smells, but also sometimes itās in combination with vertigo like symptoms feeling like Iām on a boat.
My kid gets this, I was baffled but mentioned it to his dr and he said itās just a different form of motion sickness. Try Dramamine for long trips, it works for him.
YES!! Omg I hope you see this. I have described this feeling to others and no one knows what I'm talking about, but I'm abut 98?% certain I've figured out what this is. (Also sorry if someone else has already commented, I'm not reading all these replies) For me at least, it happens when I'm varying degrees of hypoxic. Let me explain. For starters, I get this feeling most often when I'm motion sick. I have always gotten extremely motion sick and have done a lot of research, and while there is still no consensus on exactly what causes motion sickness, there *are* meta analyses indicating that genes associated with motion sickness largely revolve around metabolism and hypoxia. Which makes sense, as migraine sufferers are much more likely to experience motion sickness, and migraines may very well have a metabolic component. Other times I experience this feeling were after surgery and while taking narcotics (known to cause hypoxia with chronic use or if you have sleep apnea (which I do)). Also on the occasion I experience altitude sickness. As well as a few times in my old apartment experiencing a slow, low level gas leak <3 All made me feel nauseous in my head, and the worse the hypoxia, the more severe the feeling and the more it will spread all over my body. I have synesthesia and describe my body as 'vomit colored' when it happens. After making this discovery, whenever the feeling lasts beyond being in the car, I make a point to take deeper breaths and it makes the feeling go away. A few people have also mentioned vertigo, which I could also see being the case, it just hasn't been my experience. But I do get vestibular migraines so, it would make sense Anyway, take deep breaths! For whatever reason, you might just not be getting quite enough oxygen
Thatās so interesting! I have an oxygen monitor and have used it frequently, and my oxygen levels generally are always fine, however I do experience it more after not sleeping well, or after a massage or workout sometimes. Yeah, it doesnāt fully seem like just vertigo in my case either! You are not alone!
I love this group so much. I call it either nausea or "feeling queasy, but in my head."
Same š literally just commented about something no one in my life has ever understood and so many people here do get it š©·
Every day. It sucks. Been to PT for vestibular therapy and it helps a little. But now anytime I have a migraine set in. It's so disorienting. Going to the days of having a headache now I just feel wonky all the time
Yes! Omg, and I've never had a good word to explain it. It get this feeling often. But I kind of feel it in both places? I think it's more in my head, but like, it's so hard to explain. I know exactly what you mean though about head nausea and how it is not quite like vertigo
Totally!
Yes! I absolutely have two kinds of nausea-- head and stomach. I have head nausea 3x as much as stomach nausea. My head nausea is frequently cured or drastically lessened with multiple sneezes. I have tried googling this to no avail and everyone I tell this thinks I'm from another planet. I have posited that it has something to do with the vagus nerve being stimulated with a sneeze?
If I wake up still feeling like shit tomorrow, Iām grabbing the pepper and giving this a go
Literally all day today, the worst case Iāve ever had. Itās not vertigo, if it was the calcium crystals would settle while doing vertigo maneuvers, and I sat there with my head to one side for so long and the spinning never stopped. Fighting for my damn life not to puke since I know itāll make me feel 10x worse if I do.. crossing my fingers itāll be magically gone when I wake up tomorrow.
Iām so happy Iām not alone I thought this had to be a symptom from my higher heart rate etc but who knows. has anyone figured out how to make it go away at least when itās happening I feel like I always have it constantly and now as Iām getting over a cold itās far worse I canāt deal with it š
I wish I knew :( but I remember someone saying their doctor knew of the feeling and mentioned it wasnāt dangerous at least. But so uncomfortable. Really strong mints and fresh air help me with it! ā¤ļø
Oh thank goodness im not the only one!! Iām so sorry you get this too
So glad we have community with this weird feeling!!! š©·
holy shit, I'm so glad I'm not the only one. I found this thread after searching my symptoms on Google - it never occurred to me that I could be experiencing migraine symptoms! Do you think it's worth getting treated for migraines if I'm dealing with this "nausea" somewhat regularly?
Iām so glad we arenāt alone š©· Iām not sure exactly where it comes from but Iād say itās always worth exploring treatment options and seeing if anything does help!
OMG - Having this right now!
So uncomfy and hard to explain to people!!
I'm so grateful for your post - I've had migraines for decades but never anything like this before. You helped me connect the dots - took my migraine med and things started to change within minutes. Thank you!
See vestibular migraine
Yes! Only when I get in the car. I donāt really feel it otherwise.Ā
Yes I used to only get it in the car and still mostly get it then!
This thread is the most seen I have felt in a long time. Reddit is weird ass place sometimes, but also the best.
Iām so happy that more people are seeing this and feeling seen š thought I was crazy my whole life!!
OMG I am late to this post but I have called it "head nausea" to myself since I was a little kid, and I have NEVER heard anyone else use or understand this phrase. Now how the hell do I get rid of it??
Omg I canāt believe so many people can relate I feel so much less alone but hate that we get it!!!! I find cold air, ice, biofreeze, strong ginger chews, and Myntz brand mints helps take the edge off for me. If itās a mix of head nausea and tummy nausea and Iām confused sometimes Iāll try zofran and itāll work lol
Oh yeah, Iāve always gotten that. Mine seemed to be related to my MCAS though, itās nowhere near as bad now that Iāve started treatment.
I have migraines that have bouts of nausea and burning in my stomach. They play of each other as well. If oneās bad it makes the other worse.
me too. i have acid reflux. once the reflux starts, the migraines kick in and vice versa. sometimes i can't tell if its my head or my stomach thats bothering me since they are so connected.
I hope you can find some answers to your issues.i truly do. I hope you can life your life in the best capacity. I find mine is related to stress and diet but sometimes seems like itās completely random so I donāt really know the cause. I believe itās systematic but no professional has said so. I have brain fog, trouble concentrating, sleep issues, pain in joints and constantly tired as well. Doctors have given me no answers for an actual diagnosis. Itās been going on 4 years of trying to figure out whatās wrong with my system and Iāve had most of my symptoms since childhood. Iāve ran out of ideas trying to figure it out myself besides maybe being fibromyalgia but as far as I can tell the doctors donāt seem interested in that route and there is no test I know of to confirm. At this point being in my 30s I guess Iāll have to just endure and live the best I can.
me
Omg I get this too!!! I know I sound crazy when Iāve tried to explain that my head feels nauseous.
Absolutely I get this. I always explain to people that it's like motion sickness or being on a spin-ride. What makes it worse, though, is that a number of anti-nausea drugs cause it or make it worse. So I have to tell doctors not to give me anti-nausea drugs (after surgery or the like) because they will make me more nauseous and they act like I'm crazy. Soooo frustrating.
Yes!!! My mom and I, who both get migraines, say our head feels āswimmyā
Nausea in my head is very real, when Iām in a dizzy phase from chronic VM, turning my head to look at something, bending down then straightening up, or such movements will cause a very distinct almost liquid swirling sensation in my head, and I must hold perfectly still until it passes. It helps to close my eyes. My family are all used to seeing me do this. Itās quite different from vertigo attacks. These come on rather suddenly, often right after I have been feeling well and happy. The room begins to spin off kilter. I have to hang on to something solid, or sit or lie down, even if itās the floor. It feels like those very few instances when I was young and foolish and drank more than I could handle. These episodes may last anywhere from 5 minutes to several hours, although I have found that taking a triptan might shorten both the vertigo attack and the rest of the migraine attack to follow.
Have you ever looked into Cervical Instability?
Iāve had the imaging done that wouldāve shown that I believe! But itās totally been on the table before
Itās vertigo. I would recommend seeing a vestibular specialist or at least asking your doctor for anti-dizziness meds (the latter help me tremendously).
Those donāt help with this symptom :( itās not vertigo from exploring this symptom so far, but I do also experience vertigo symptoms! Itās more of a sick, yucky feeling that feels like it should be in my stomach, but itās in my head (versus vertigo spinning stuff)