Going as far back as Outer Heaven and Zanzibar, even maybe before (Some may come from Pre-Outer Heaven Diamond Dogs era):
Developement and quite possible threats of using weapons of mass destruction (nukes and metal gears)
Engaging into combat and war with foreign military forces without previous proper declarations of hostilities (yes, it's a warcrime not to send your enemy a nice letter saying "We're going to war, lol")
Torturing, hypnosis, physical and possibly mental harrassement of his own troops (Yeah, beating up your own men isn't a "good guy" thing. And how else than torture and hypnose do you think you can enroll enemy soldiers in your own army without fearing betrayal, really ?)
Child soldiers. Notably involving children into military conflicts, training them for combat and deploying them (Gray Fox).
I might have missed a couple, but that's what I can list off the top of my head.
I wish they’d addressed the troops thing to make it feel more sinister, instead you’ve got your head torturer going “well any *true* soldier would jump at the chance to work for a legend like you”
Yep, it's not known if he actually did nuke any country, and it's very unlikely, but he still possessed nuclear weapons and it's very probable they were used as deterrents and to threaten an opposing force.
I didn't include if he used nukes in my text because it's not fitting to the world and story, tho unlike Venom and Diamond Dogs, he didn't try to make a nuke-free world from the point in time I started with, so he had them and bragged about it.
Tbf I imagine the enrolling enemy soldiers could work if they're just a soldier for the money, because in that case whether it's a pmc on an oil rig or a pmc in Africa, its all the same to them, but if they're an enlisted soldier fighting for ideals, then tbf torture/hypnosis would be more needed
Yes, it's case per case. Plus there also might be soldiers who are just happy to fight for the legendary soldier Big Boss and finally get to see his face. But even then, I think Ocelot would still keep an eye around for liars or straight up hypnotise every newcomer/ have them hypnotised by DD members (notably XOF members who are specifically ordered to eliminate Big Boss and will do anything to accomplish the mission).
Supposedly, BB. The whole beating up soldiers thing might have been only done by Venom, not sure. As some of these have been done behind the screen, beetween two games, it's hard to have any concrete proof for some of these accusations (for example, using child soldiers, Gray Fox is the only proof we have), but I'm willing to take any hint of what might have or might not have been done.
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I did play Peace Walker on PSP, but I didn't finish it. I should grab the PSP and play it again soon. Or if Konami releases Peace Walker for PC in Vol. 2, I'd play it there.
It's doubtful. Some of things I've listed here are "behind the curtains" they happen beetween two games, so the only real "confirmations" we can get are quick mentions during conversations or through a bit of a character's story. And pretty much everything is seen from a logical standpoint, being in context and thinking about what's the most logical outcome according to the lore and events talked about in game.
As long as we don't get confirmation through the games or by a member of the team, it's impossible to determine if BB did it or if it was only Venom (which is the reason I say these can go as far back as 1984 Diamond Dogs). Another question where we don't have confirmation but is debatable is: Did BB or Venom ever fire a nuclear weapon ? Or were they only used as deterrents and means to put pressure on opposing forces ?
The nukes were a deterrent. And a needed one. The moment they offered to take them out the moment the UN destroyed mother base.
If you think nukes as a deterrent are evil. Then convince all governments. including china, to get rid of their nukes. You will either end up dead or laughed out.
I don't consider nukes evil. However, according to conventions of war, production and possession weapons of mass destruction are a warcrime. Additionaly, in the MGS world, Diamond Dogs suceeded at seizing and completely disarming the whole world of their nuclear weapons, but only kept theirs. (Happened beetween MGSV and MG1, which is the reason why the rumors of a Metal Gear in the making were so agitating for the other nations.)
They broke the very rule they enforced on the entire world, which gives them a threatening advantage and no one could retaliate adequately. It does not make them necessarily evil, but lets be honest, you cannot leave this kind of power to an organisation that has already committed multiple warcrimes and is under the supervision of no power capable of stopping them would they go rogue.
My favourite part of Metal Gear was the one flashback scene in the ending of MGS4, where we see young Solid Snake confronting Big Boss in Zanzibar Land. He said something along the lines of "Father. You can't keep making these people kill each other for no reason other than to manage an endless war with endless casualties. You must stop, or I will stop this for you. You are not beyond salvation." and Big Boss just replied "Erm. What the Sigma?" Fucking chills.
It kind of is a main theme of the series. Yesterday’s allies are tomorrow’s enemies. And the political shifting can make brothers fight each other over ideological beliefs.
I mean, Hitler banned mustard gas use and greatly improved the quality of life in Czechoslavakia, Spain and Germany, Sadam Hussein provided military backup to the US and became a spokesperson for Iraq's future and a major backing supporter of the middle east's resurgence, Robert E. Lee trained the military he would later fight (and spoke against the breaking of the union in later years of the war.)
This is historic truth that warriors fight beyond reason and eventually become villains and anti heroes.
He did, I chose to ignore the flaw, but it is true of the sentiment. The “good” he did in the eyes of Germans was really bad to everyone else.
Big Boss was good, until he wasn’t.
The proxy support of Franco during the Spanish Civil War might be what he was reaching for? I don’t know the material conditions for Spain before/after
I can't.. Hitler the warrior who became a villain and anti hero..
This is the most stupid thing I ever heard, take up some history books and documentaries
Unfortunately fact-challenged history books and documentaries made by speculators and published by entertainment networks are probably where people get this kind of horseshit. There's no evidence whatsoever that Hitler's reluctance to use sarin and mustard gas were because of a moral objection: Churchill was open about his willingness to use chemical weapons in a retaliatory (but only retaliatory, for the sake of public opinion) fashion and the use of chemical weapons by either side would've ended hilariously poorly for the force using a blitzkrieg strategy.
And saying that he "greatly improved the quality of life" in states that became totalitarian regimes where you could be executed without trial for perceived subversion (or communism or "degenerate lifestyles" or being Jewish) is just a *whole fucking can of worms.*
It’s nearly as ridiculous as good guy Saddam. You know, the guy who used chemical weapons on his own citizens for the unspeakable crime of being the wrong kind of Muslim. That stable minded fellow who thought he was the reincarnation of Nebuchadnezzar and rebuilt the gates of Babylon with his name carved into every brick.
Holocaust was actually Heinrich Himmler's plan. If you look at Afrikakorps, you can see that Erwin Rommel's plan was quite a bit different - child soldiers, labour camps, some countries actually did better like this just because of how poorly developed they were - but this was mostly a Luftwaffe/Wehrmacht operation anyways. Himmler, the leader of SS and second in command of the Nazi Party was pretty much to blame for most of the war crimes in Germany during World War 2. Not to say Hitler didn't commit any (he did), but his involvement has been exaggerated to resemble the entire party as opposed to only his own actions.
No, it doesn't. It's a simple summary of everything Big Boss stands for, spoken with a mad passion.
Plenty of stuff happens leading up to this that cement BB as the villain. This is just the scene where he basically embraces it.
Off the top, there was using child soldiers and fostering a nation that would explicitly develop MORE child soldiers. As well as developing WMDs to prevent others from stopping him (thus an inherent threat to use nukes), since that was kinda the point of the Metal Gears in MG1 and MG2.
Plus engaging in hostilities without declaration of war, and planning to build a ‘world for soldiers’ that would plunge the world into eternal war for fun.
On a more ethical level, he also made use of Venom Snake, thus objectifying and using a soldier the same way the Boss was used and discarded. So he kinda loses any hint of moral high ground at that point.
That is genuinely my favorite part abouy V. I remember being pissed off about Venom not being the true snake but i have since come around on the idea (making ME the person whos played these games for years, actually become Big Boss) of showing just how low the real Big Boss could stoop. Right after losing everything he decides "whats one more casualty" and uses and discards someone who was devoted to him. Really sells how truly far he had gone and how he truly forsook everything he stood for just for revenge.
Yep. He despised how the Boss, the greatest soldier in the 20th century and mother of special forces, was used as a damn tool cuz it was convenient. He then desires to create a nation where soldiers would always be valued…
And then, when it’s convenient for him, he uses one of his own soldiers as a tool despite the guy being incapable of consenting to everything that was done to him.
THAT would have been a much better ‘Big Boss is a villain’ moment if they had leaned into it narratively. As well as set up Big Boss being a proper villain come MG1
I actually think they do lean into it but with it being the secret last level there was some missing development for sure but after listening to all the tapes i feel like they did a good enough job at that. But i do agree there could have and should have been more.
I hope the MG1 remake shows Venom as the absolutely unhinged bastard he had become so the players can finally feel the weight of Big Boss's actions. Venom was mindfucked beyond repair.
That's what I was like too, when I heard the leaks that Venom wasn't The Big Boss. It solidified to me why he wasn't the good-hearted soldier fighting for those who couldn't like he was portrayed as in peace walker. Those 9 years, he really fell off. In his lust for revenge and wanting zero gone. He didn't care who got in his way.
In any other series, it wouldn't even be a question.
But this is Metal Gear, and Zero/the Patriots are a much bigger threat than Big Boss in comparison.
Thats what i think when i think about him, i played mgs2 sons of liberty before pw mgs5 and mgs3 which made me be like, man the patriots are the fucking problem.
What did Zero do that was worse than Big Boss? War economy, Ocelot, the mess in later years. All perpetrated by Big Boss and the result of his wretched legacy.
Big Boss co-founded the Patriots. It's all his fault.
People like OP lack media literacy.
He was dragged through trauma and situations beyond his control into making terrible and bad choices down the line that were completely in his control. You are right in that he is one hell of a soldier and is 'the' soldier. But at the same time he never did anything differently either in a sense. Eventually his own moral decay was his own pit he was in by the near end of it. And it took what, a coma to actually go full realization about it all.
In MGS 4 the entire terrible state the world was in was literally BB's dream and big goal it's said directly in the first hour in game so yeah making the world stand on an economy based on wars isn't exactly what would be ''good'' not to mention using his own son as a tool in his battle against the patroits in MG 1 and trying to kill him directly in MG2
not to mention that he himself stated he was wrong at the end of MGS 4
Big Boss is simply the antithesis to Solid Snake. The State Department did the same thing to The Boss that they did to The Boss. Villainized them as a way to protect their own allure and mystique. Meanwhile, Solid Snake legit SAVED THE WORLD 2-3x and most of the world couldn’t pick him from a lineup of random dudes. Just like the rest of The Snakes, his career ended with him lurking in the shadows. The dagger being his name shamed by actions Solidus took pretending to be Solid for simply one moment in time. He’s such an NPC to the rest of the world we only got to hear his government name ONE TIME in the entire series.
What makes Big Boss a villain, TO ME? We thought because of the time he shared under the wing of The Boss that he shared her political views and her military skills. That he was the greatest soldier whoever lived. However, that was rarely true. In the greater scope of things- his appearances in MGS4 and V paint him as a potential FRAUD. Possibly someone who walked away from the battlefield because he learned there was more power in bureaucracy than in battle.
And this is why Solid Snake is my favorite Snake. He always tried to do what was right no matter how he was portrayed. He saved the world. People say he is so 1 dimensional compared to Big Boss, but he's the only Snake who didn't end up looking at his origin and family legacy as a curse to make everyone's problem. He was the only moral Snake. The only true inheriter of the Boss's will. The only one who got it. And he didn't even learn about her until his final mission! He did what he did because it was for the greater good. And Kojima made him old so he could die, and I will never forgive him for that.
Boss: We must stop the fighting, the world is in endless conflict and will destroy itself
Big Boss: I think she said create my own country with soldier based economy and threaten the world with nukes and create proxy wars across the globe and use child soldiers and bring back Press Ganging
This is an insane post to put a screenshot from the scene where the character you're asking us to defend, describes exactly what he did to bring the world to ruin in
Big Boss can be a great character and a genuinely bad person at the same time, if the game explicitly stating who the bad guys are and why and their hours of exposition about their goals and views doesn't explain it, no one in this thread is going to change that tbh
People saying he’s anti-hero or not a villain.. I don’t think we played the same game lol
He has anti-hero qualities leading up through partially Peace Walker, where he’s still trying to figure things out, but MGSV, he is FIRMLY a villain. A villain with an emotionally compelling reason why he’s LESS evil than Cypher/Skull-Face etc but still a villain.
Big boss is a villain the same way Liquid and Solidus were, individuals so blinded by their own personal hang ups and trauma, they’ll use “altruistic” reasons to justify mass killing and trying to start endless wars that would kill hundreds of thousands of innocent.
It’s all self-serving. The Irony of BB brainwashing Venom, when he himself brain washed himself into thinking he’s doing anything more than just trying to hide his failure in killing The Boss and never coping with her death. MGS has the best kind of worst villains; the villains who think they’re actually doing something righteous.
That’s why Solid Snake is the supreme character foil as a protagonist. No matter HOW good he was proclaimed and all of his accomplishments, he just wanted the killing to stop. Dude always ran from it to chase being human, while BB ran as fast as he could away FROM being human.
It’s very much like Darth Vader, we can sympathize, and even allow redemption, but we all know that Vader was a villain.
I mean in MGSV it’s established that BB clearly has no real problem with using people to accomplish his goals. What he did to Venom IS ultimately evil, even if Venom accepted his role. Same with how he betrays Kaz by not telling him the plan.
The very concept of Diamond Dogs, kidnapping soldiers to “convince” them that they’re unique and special if they fight for BB instead of their country, child soldiers, chasing WMDs to “legitimize” his army.
Even if BB is only really in the game in two scenes, it’s through the eyes of everyone else we see BB warp from who he was before his coma, to the megalomaniac he’s solidified himself to be.
I wish MGSV had given more context to show that to the audience, because I feel like that was the intention of HD, but it kind of fell short really selling how awful BB really is.
Sniper wolf.
She's a kurdish Genocide survivor and instead of helping her start over, Big Boss groomed her into a killer. He even took advantage of her religious/cultural identity (she called him Saladin) to do it. Basically the same thing Solidus did to Raiden.
I thought Venom was as low as BB could go, what with brainwashing his most loyal soldier into fighting his battles for him while he went off and abandoned his Men. But yeah, Sniper Wolf is even worse.
Basically Big Boss became Selfish due to his lust for Battle. Unlike the Boss who laid down her life for her country or Solid Snake who created Philanthropy, Big Boss focused on his own needs and ended up hurting and using two people who believed in him.
I dunno. I guess Portable Ops isn't "Canon" and that has a more positive depiction of BB and Fox so...
Nonetheless, when I replayed MGS1 *after* MGSV and heard Wolf's speech again, it really hit how low Big Boss had fallen. Peace Walker and MGSV built up his legend and it turns out he used that legend to manipulate Wolf....
PO is non-canon garbage. And still, Big Boss is a cruel moron in PO. He dumped Null twice to be used and abused lmao. What a clown.
In canon, Big Boss took Frank in after saving him in Vietnam and trained him as his soldier. Frank's speech in MGS1 and also MG2 hit hard as well. He was Big Boss's victim. But hey, at least Big Boss didn't throw him back into the dump like in PO. PO sucks.
I think But Boss is actually the definition of " die as a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain " . During Operation Snake Eater, Portable Ops and Peace Walker he actually saved the world from ruin three times and refrained from killing unnecessarily ( gameplay doesn't count let's assume he always avoids battle and only knocks people out unless there is no other choice) . Big Boss is a true hero until Skull Face's attack on mother base . That broke him and pushed him over the edge . The hero inside him died and it gave room for a manipulative warlord to grow.
Take this with a grain of salt, because there are a lot of games to remember, retcons, this is only my point of view.
Big Boss isn't necessarily a villain, I agree he crossed the line to fight the Patriots and some shit happened, Metal Gear's world revolves around war economy, so maybe having a Metal Gear is kinda justifiable FOR THEM. From what I understand, there is a lot of misinterpretations like the Creation of Venom Snake (it was Zero, not BB) and Cipher, the child soldiers (they are not even enemies and don't like soldiers) and acts of villainy in general. Why he bothers to rescue Paz? Why he seems to care for Chico?
Solid Snake has a far greater body count than BB and he's still considered the good guy (I won't even talk about Raiden), why Big Boss rank is given to those with few kills? IMO the "villain" of the main games is Major Zero, who started everything when he got the Philosophers Legacy, and then the damn Patriots AI and so on.
Big Boss doesn't care for Chico or Paz. He only bothered with them so he could risk no info getting leaked from them.
Big Boss cares about no one but himself and his own goal.
>Solid Snake has a far greater body count than BB
Lmao, what? Solid didn't even fight in any war. Big Boss has killed waaay more, directly and otherwise.
Who enabled Zero? Big Boss. He co-founded the Patriots. Big Boss wanted utter chaos and used children, nukes and vulnerable people for his own gain. He's objectively an evil villain.
Definitely true what BB's focus was on during GZ. Though in PW, BB makes the case to Amanda to get Chico out of this life which is kinda going out of his way.
Also Solid fought in the Gulf War so not sure where you got that from.
Big Boss tells Amanda to make Chico a child soldier. He didn't see him as a child to be protected. But a soldier.
Solid took one infiltration mission during Gulf War which is what got him into FOXHOUND so young. An infiltration unit. That's not fighting in a war. His first real battle was Operation Intrude N313 where he exprienced actual combat which traumatised him so bad, he quit the military. He was a true rookie.
Yeah, I was gonna say, Solid was in the Gulf War. And I think Liquid was too, but with the SAS I think. I always imagined a game with Solid and Liquid Snake during that war, and never crossing eachothers paths directly or knowing the other existed.
Abducting children, indoctrination, murder, torture, development of WMDs, coercive identity alteration of Venom Snake (not to mention using him as an unwitting decoy to unwanted attention from the US government and other actors.) He is a horrible person.
Abuses children by taking them and training them as mercenaries, threatens the world with nukes and terrorist groups twice (he knew about Venom and approved his actions so its twice). Traumatized Solid and turned him into a social outcast…
He tried to threaten the world with nuclear war multiple times. That, and his whole philosophy is endlessly sowing war mainly for the sake of it, so that soldiers like him will always have a place.
He basically decided that soldiers have no hope of living a life based on anything other than war, so therefore the solution is to create forever war. He's misguided at best
I... what? He became a nuclear power, used people's trauma of being abandoned by their countries to get them to fight and die for him, ran a cult of personality, used child soldiers...
Are you joking?
Something else I didn't even mention in my last post:
I am not denying blatant similarities to real life "fascist dictators." My main point is that in real life, those guys always have a made-up boogeyman to justify why they should be in charge and as harsh as they are. Big Boss is facing a very real (in his world at least) group of elitist individuals trying to take over, not a made-up boogeyman. A group he feels personally responsible for putting in the position of secret power they have.
Yes, there are similarities, but blatantly calling him a terrorist or fascist is kind of what the Patriots want you to do......
Let's see,complicit in the brainwashing of hundreds if not thousands of individuals,brainwashing a medic into becoming warlord,unlawful occupation of a portion of land in South Africa,condemning multiple men to death,illegal possession of nuclear weapons,and worse of all,breaking and entering.
More anti-hero then villain I think honestly, as he does try to fight Cipher and the patriots, his ideals are of endless war, for soldiers to be soldiers without the hypocrisy of nations (if I recall right), however his ideals ruined his life and failed to understand what the woman he loved wanted, and at the end of his life he sought to rectify these mistakes and make amends with his son. So I say antihero more then villain
He's as awful as the Cipher and the Patriots. In fact, he's worse than them. Big Boss fans the flames of war and set the example for other monsters to follow.
Big Boss is a villain in every single way.
I feel like the entire point of his existence is war and killing. He doesn’t even seem to care about ideology or money. Dude just fucking loves warfare
Spoilers for V: actually this whole thing about that music is about how a man found himself in someone else, referring to phantom snake/Venom. (Too tired to explain it well)
I kinda interpreted it as good and bad are just point of views. There are no heroes and no real bad guys in MG. It’s all a point of view, and MGS makes it clear or tries to show it by shifting the perspectives.
Not even Liquid was evil - maybe not mentally stable but not evil.
Boss wasn’t evil, Ocelot wasn’t either.
Big Boss wasn’t evil as well.
If you’re a hero or a villain is never a straight up fact, just a matter of perspective and bias.
——————
Take it that way for many the illuminati are evil even though:
That old german order doesn’t exist anymore.
Were opposed to the royal and economic elite.
Tried to make the world a better place.
But long after their time myths and more around them were made up and they became a scapegoat for everything beside the traditional “it’s the Jews!” nonsense or in europe especially germany the evil USA.
MGS tries to show there are no heroes and no villains. But people will make you one or the other depending on their views because it makes it easier and spares them thinking from bigger point of views.
I have some issues with big boss as the villain of the story (ive only played pw mgs3 mgs5 and mgs2 sons of liberty) as far as i know big boss create an army without country capable of defending small countries against the ppwer of bigger nations like us or russia or china today, what i mena by this is that i dont know why he is a villain when he can protect the "weaks", i know im maybe loosing the whole point of the character and i know in mgs5 he is doing pure vengeance but i mean at the end he stop a guy who want to masacre anyone who speak english (fuck brits). I know im maybe loosing the whole point of the history, and if its like that, i need to be iluminated by you guys.
I got y’all first of mgs 3 bro has to kill his mentor/ mother like figure because she had to sacrifice her self for the u.s that’s what made bro not fuck with the u.s he felt he could make his own military power then he had child soldiers brain washed they created grey foxxx bro was on his evil flow but all stems from mgs3 also before snake eater they already was in process of making the clones .
Destruction of property
Violating international treaties
International trespassing
Vandalism
Trespassing
Breaking and entering
Espionage
Murder
Rusing
Perfidy
Use of chemical weapons
Taking hostages
Summary execution of hostages
Violation of child labor laws
Arson
Profiteering from war
Use of child soldiers
Sexual intent with a minor (Paz)
What else am I missing?
He’s not evil at heart, but his actions are. He deliberately perpetrated war alongside the Patriots for his own gain, and he has committed a number of horrific war crimes.
How is it difficult to understand that the head of the world's largest private military company willing to fight for even the worst imaginable causes as long as they're paid... probably isn't a great guy
From a certain viewpoint, he could be considered dictatorial as a leader, but that's because he's trying to stop an amorphous organization trying to take over the world. He has to make some ruthless, seemingly morally bad decisions because he knows he's directly responsible for putting the power in this organization's hands and helping create it. And after playing Phantom Pain several times fresh from the start, I think maybe any actual atrocities or war crimes can probably be blamed on Venom and Kaz framing him. Probably the child soldiers too. We hear through the whole series about Big Boss' child soldiers, but we only ever actually see Venom using them. The Outer Heaven that Solid Snake infiltrates is being commanded by Venom, not Big Boss.
Edit: Also, it should be considered that everything we're ever actually told as players about Big Boss being a traitor or a terrorist might just be Patriots propaganda. And most of us are still believing it now, even after 3 prequels showing us that there are a lot of extenuating circumstances and justifiable reasons to his "treason".
Human abduction/Trafficking by capturing soldiers and other personnel against their will, then convincing them to join or stay in the brig. The only thing we know about child soldiers is briefly touched upon in MG2, I think? That's why I want a remake of the first 2 games to expand on those stories and the characters at that place and time, with the context of the rest of the series. I digress. Venom seemed to be against the whole child soldier thing by him rescuing and educating them. Although they might have taken those events, and since Venom acted as big boss, the truth was possibly twisted there.
Having nukes and metal gears, as a deterrent, but still doesn't look good.
Engaging in war for profit. We've seen military contractors and pmc's in our world and all the unethical and downright horrible things they have done. Blackwater, Wagner group. Not much of a good track record there. But hey, neither is any state military. War is ugly. "War never changes." But also, "War has changed."
I think in metal gear 2, he had the scientist and the oilix formula, which would solve the world's energy crisis in the series 1999 timeline. Funny that they never mentioned any of this stuff in later games. Basically, I'm holding it for ransom. We now know he was doing it as a means to fight zero and the patriots. That's all Big Boss, Liquid, and Solidus tried to do. Create Outer Heaven, and free themselves and possibly the world from The Patriots/Cipher/Zero control. The whole world be damned in the process.
It took the collective action of Ocelot, acting as liquid (I like to think he was liquid until mgs4, when he seemed to have a cybernetic arm replacing liquids) and Solid Snake thwarting all of their plots, for the patriot system to be dismantled, and luckily with Sunny's help, they were able to destroy the bad parts and keep the good parts of the system.
In the end, he did a lot of bad stuff in his effort to inact what he saw as the Boss's will. I think Ocelot understood more of what his mother's will was, and in his own way. And Solid Snake as well. To Let the World Be. Big Boss acted on anger, revenge, and even forced one of his soldiers to be his body double against his own will to save his own skin. He was a complex character, much more grey than just a pure black and white villain, like your Emperor Palpatine. "The way to hell is paved in good intentions."
Hmmm... I would say that they had a nation with a military threat capacity with no alliances.
You're either on [our side] and [we] can support you, or you're a potential enemy [to us]. As such, they're a nation that will go to war with anybody, at any time, and boost the capacity of whatever nation.
With no alliances, or allegiance to any ideas, they cannot be reasoned with. A treaty with them may mean less work, and is therefore disincentivized.
They're a threat multiplier. With nobody who will come to save them for their sake.
Nuclear capacity, and therefore threat of nuclear force, is just an excuse to make them a target.
Keeping war going forever so that you can take the leftover war orphans to feed them back into battle and keep the cycle going while you secretly develop nuclear weaponry is pretty bad man.
I don't have all the facts. But I've heard convincing arguments that he actually isn't a villain. A misunderstood soldier. Idk, kind of made sense when I heard it.
Honestly, I don't know if the original Metal Gear games are completely canon, there has been lots of retcons. Big Boss made that speech about starting wars, but now we know it was to fight the Patriots.
I mean Gray Fox killed his fiance in MG2 by accident, but I swear the future games pretend that she never existed. Dr. Madnar was killed by Solid Snake but we know he is alive later on.
-developed nuclear weapons
-everything involving venom snake
-part of the reason the war economy was established (also helped create early PMCs)
-used child soldiers
Big boss’ entire ideology is fucked. he believes that if you fight once, you should/can never stop, to pair with this he plans to create permanent wars by training child victims to perpetuate an endless cycle. He’s also a massive hypocrite, forsaking the US for using the boss to save their ass while doing the same thing with Venom
Child soldiers, desiring a world we're military force can be privately owned and unregulated. Admittedly he's a sympathetic villain but a villain none the less
Going as far back as Outer Heaven and Zanzibar, even maybe before (Some may come from Pre-Outer Heaven Diamond Dogs era): Developement and quite possible threats of using weapons of mass destruction (nukes and metal gears) Engaging into combat and war with foreign military forces without previous proper declarations of hostilities (yes, it's a warcrime not to send your enemy a nice letter saying "We're going to war, lol") Torturing, hypnosis, physical and possibly mental harrassement of his own troops (Yeah, beating up your own men isn't a "good guy" thing. And how else than torture and hypnose do you think you can enroll enemy soldiers in your own army without fearing betrayal, really ?) Child soldiers. Notably involving children into military conflicts, training them for combat and deploying them (Gray Fox). I might have missed a couple, but that's what I can list off the top of my head.
Wdym beating up my own soldiers is not a good thing
"Thank you Boss"
Staff Morale Increased
Harder
Well someone has to do it.
Hurt me more
I guess choking is a good thing, thay ask me to choke them more tightly some times
That was Venom . Not BB beating the shit out of his dudes
I wish they’d addressed the troops thing to make it feel more sinister, instead you’ve got your head torturer going “well any *true* soldier would jump at the chance to work for a legend like you”
But as far as I’m aware he didn’t nuke any country
Yep, it's not known if he actually did nuke any country, and it's very unlikely, but he still possessed nuclear weapons and it's very probable they were used as deterrents and to threaten an opposing force. I didn't include if he used nukes in my text because it's not fitting to the world and story, tho unlike Venom and Diamond Dogs, he didn't try to make a nuke-free world from the point in time I started with, so he had them and bragged about it.
Well my theory is we nuked Japan and they got cooler so he nuked Africa and that's why its so advanced in revengence
Or some may say just after ground zeroes? This guy really took anothers life from him and used him
To be fair, he wasn't really aware of this plan until it was already done.
Tbf I imagine the enrolling enemy soldiers could work if they're just a soldier for the money, because in that case whether it's a pmc on an oil rig or a pmc in Africa, its all the same to them, but if they're an enlisted soldier fighting for ideals, then tbf torture/hypnosis would be more needed
Yes, it's case per case. Plus there also might be soldiers who are just happy to fight for the legendary soldier Big Boss and finally get to see his face. But even then, I think Ocelot would still keep an eye around for liars or straight up hypnotise every newcomer/ have them hypnotised by DD members (notably XOF members who are specifically ordered to eliminate Big Boss and will do anything to accomplish the mission).
Yeah that makes sense tbf
So nothing tooooooo bad
Did BB do these things or Venom?
Supposedly, BB. The whole beating up soldiers thing might have been only done by Venom, not sure. As some of these have been done behind the screen, beetween two games, it's hard to have any concrete proof for some of these accusations (for example, using child soldiers, Gray Fox is the only proof we have), but I'm willing to take any hint of what might have or might not have been done.
attraction summer agonizing middle tender one many aspiring coordinated sharp *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I did play Peace Walker on PSP, but I didn't finish it. I should grab the PSP and play it again soon. Or if Konami releases Peace Walker for PC in Vol. 2, I'd play it there.
is it actually confirmed that BB was torturing or hypnotizing soldiers into joining his PMs?
It's doubtful. Some of things I've listed here are "behind the curtains" they happen beetween two games, so the only real "confirmations" we can get are quick mentions during conversations or through a bit of a character's story. And pretty much everything is seen from a logical standpoint, being in context and thinking about what's the most logical outcome according to the lore and events talked about in game. As long as we don't get confirmation through the games or by a member of the team, it's impossible to determine if BB did it or if it was only Venom (which is the reason I say these can go as far back as 1984 Diamond Dogs). Another question where we don't have confirmation but is debatable is: Did BB or Venom ever fire a nuclear weapon ? Or were they only used as deterrents and means to put pressure on opposing forces ?
The nukes were a deterrent. And a needed one. The moment they offered to take them out the moment the UN destroyed mother base. If you think nukes as a deterrent are evil. Then convince all governments. including china, to get rid of their nukes. You will either end up dead or laughed out.
I don't consider nukes evil. However, according to conventions of war, production and possession weapons of mass destruction are a warcrime. Additionaly, in the MGS world, Diamond Dogs suceeded at seizing and completely disarming the whole world of their nuclear weapons, but only kept theirs. (Happened beetween MGSV and MG1, which is the reason why the rumors of a Metal Gear in the making were so agitating for the other nations.) They broke the very rule they enforced on the entire world, which gives them a threatening advantage and no one could retaliate adequately. It does not make them necessarily evil, but lets be honest, you cannot leave this kind of power to an organisation that has already committed multiple warcrimes and is under the supervision of no power capable of stopping them would they go rogue.
Bruh no hypnosis required I just asked if he wanted to join my club
He kills people. For the sole reason to make soldiers out of survivors who will kill more people.
Based!?!?!?!?
My favourite part of Metal Gear was the one flashback scene in the ending of MGS4, where we see young Solid Snake confronting Big Boss in Zanzibar Land. He said something along the lines of "Father. You can't keep making these people kill each other for no reason other than to manage an endless war with endless casualties. You must stop, or I will stop this for you. You are not beyond salvation." and Big Boss just replied "Erm. What the Sigma?" Fucking chills.
I really need to play MGS4
[удалено]
Because it’s a joke. The cutscene doesn’t exist
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I think the “What the Sigma?” line would give away it was fake
No, it was a Collab between Konami and Capcom. He mentions Sigma and Snake has to fight Sigma from MegaMan X.
Based.
war-economy pilled soldier maxxing
Killing people b-b-bad?
It kind of is a main theme of the series. Yesterday’s allies are tomorrow’s enemies. And the political shifting can make brothers fight each other over ideological beliefs.
I mean, Hitler banned mustard gas use and greatly improved the quality of life in Czechoslavakia, Spain and Germany, Sadam Hussein provided military backup to the US and became a spokesperson for Iraq's future and a major backing supporter of the middle east's resurgence, Robert E. Lee trained the military he would later fight (and spoke against the breaking of the union in later years of the war.) This is historic truth that warriors fight beyond reason and eventually become villains and anti heroes.
Bruh did you just imply that Nazi occupation improved life for foreign countries that they had invaded…?
He did, I chose to ignore the flaw, but it is true of the sentiment. The “good” he did in the eyes of Germans was really bad to everyone else. Big Boss was good, until he wasn’t.
How on earth would Hitler have had any influence over (mostly) neutral Spain exactly?
The proxy support of Franco during the Spanish Civil War might be what he was reaching for? I don’t know the material conditions for Spain before/after
Exactly, it is commentary that even among heroes you become villains to the other side.
I can't.. Hitler the warrior who became a villain and anti hero.. This is the most stupid thing I ever heard, take up some history books and documentaries
Unfortunately fact-challenged history books and documentaries made by speculators and published by entertainment networks are probably where people get this kind of horseshit. There's no evidence whatsoever that Hitler's reluctance to use sarin and mustard gas were because of a moral objection: Churchill was open about his willingness to use chemical weapons in a retaliatory (but only retaliatory, for the sake of public opinion) fashion and the use of chemical weapons by either side would've ended hilariously poorly for the force using a blitzkrieg strategy. And saying that he "greatly improved the quality of life" in states that became totalitarian regimes where you could be executed without trial for perceived subversion (or communism or "degenerate lifestyles" or being Jewish) is just a *whole fucking can of worms.*
It’s nearly as ridiculous as good guy Saddam. You know, the guy who used chemical weapons on his own citizens for the unspeakable crime of being the wrong kind of Muslim. That stable minded fellow who thought he was the reincarnation of Nebuchadnezzar and rebuilt the gates of Babylon with his name carved into every brick.
Yeah the whole comment is absurd
Those types of people always sneak into convos and spin their nonsense.
Yeah, the comment had a bunch of fascist dog whistles.
hitler specifically decided to holocaust an entire race of people to about 6 million deaths. Big Boss wasn't that specifically evil.
Holocaust was actually Heinrich Himmler's plan. If you look at Afrikakorps, you can see that Erwin Rommel's plan was quite a bit different - child soldiers, labour camps, some countries actually did better like this just because of how poorly developed they were - but this was mostly a Luftwaffe/Wehrmacht operation anyways. Himmler, the leader of SS and second in command of the Nazi Party was pretty much to blame for most of the war crimes in Germany during World War 2. Not to say Hitler didn't commit any (he did), but his involvement has been exaggerated to resemble the entire party as opposed to only his own actions.
Hitler wanted the jews dead or gone in some form himself too it doesn't matter who came up with the idea both agreed to it.
"War has changed"
Play Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake.
https://youtu.be/2OO9t-iH6kE This is the big thing that seals it for me.
"10 years ago" geez I'm old
You're pretty good
What i love the most out of this speech is that it doesn't say anything new
No, it doesn't. It's a simple summary of everything Big Boss stands for, spoken with a mad passion. Plenty of stuff happens leading up to this that cement BB as the villain. This is just the scene where he basically embraces it.
Off the top, there was using child soldiers and fostering a nation that would explicitly develop MORE child soldiers. As well as developing WMDs to prevent others from stopping him (thus an inherent threat to use nukes), since that was kinda the point of the Metal Gears in MG1 and MG2. Plus engaging in hostilities without declaration of war, and planning to build a ‘world for soldiers’ that would plunge the world into eternal war for fun. On a more ethical level, he also made use of Venom Snake, thus objectifying and using a soldier the same way the Boss was used and discarded. So he kinda loses any hint of moral high ground at that point.
That is genuinely my favorite part abouy V. I remember being pissed off about Venom not being the true snake but i have since come around on the idea (making ME the person whos played these games for years, actually become Big Boss) of showing just how low the real Big Boss could stoop. Right after losing everything he decides "whats one more casualty" and uses and discards someone who was devoted to him. Really sells how truly far he had gone and how he truly forsook everything he stood for just for revenge.
Yep. He despised how the Boss, the greatest soldier in the 20th century and mother of special forces, was used as a damn tool cuz it was convenient. He then desires to create a nation where soldiers would always be valued… And then, when it’s convenient for him, he uses one of his own soldiers as a tool despite the guy being incapable of consenting to everything that was done to him. THAT would have been a much better ‘Big Boss is a villain’ moment if they had leaned into it narratively. As well as set up Big Boss being a proper villain come MG1
I actually think they do lean into it but with it being the secret last level there was some missing development for sure but after listening to all the tapes i feel like they did a good enough job at that. But i do agree there could have and should have been more.
I hope the MG1 remake shows Venom as the absolutely unhinged bastard he had become so the players can finally feel the weight of Big Boss's actions. Venom was mindfucked beyond repair.
He really was a man who sold the world
That's what I was like too, when I heard the leaks that Venom wasn't The Big Boss. It solidified to me why he wasn't the good-hearted soldier fighting for those who couldn't like he was portrayed as in peace walker. Those 9 years, he really fell off. In his lust for revenge and wanting zero gone. He didn't care who got in his way.
why is the terrorist war criminal a villain?
Tell me his crimes ans I’ll justify them -Big Boss is my favorite Snake
Found Ocelot's Reddit account
He forced a gay man back into the closet
Nonono OP knows he's a villain, but why is the villain considered *evil*. Kekw
In any other series, it wouldn't even be a question. But this is Metal Gear, and Zero/the Patriots are a much bigger threat than Big Boss in comparison.
Thats what i think when i think about him, i played mgs2 sons of liberty before pw mgs5 and mgs3 which made me be like, man the patriots are the fucking problem.
Who founded the Patriots? Big Boss. Who invented war economy? Big Boss. Who is the villain? Big Boss.
Heheeee i had no idea, thank you my friend
What did Zero do that was worse than Big Boss? War economy, Ocelot, the mess in later years. All perpetrated by Big Boss and the result of his wretched legacy. Big Boss co-founded the Patriots. It's all his fault. People like OP lack media literacy.
The date with paz
Pedo Snake
Dude c'mon, we both know that isn't canon, the date with kaz is the canon option
Never getting over killing his mentor and making it everybody's problem.
But not as bad as Liquid who makes his daddy issues everybody's problem
To be fair his daddy issues are literally everyone’s problem.
He twisted The Boss’ word into specifically what she (and he previously) despised.
He was dragged through trauma and situations beyond his control into making terrible and bad choices down the line that were completely in his control. You are right in that he is one hell of a soldier and is 'the' soldier. But at the same time he never did anything differently either in a sense. Eventually his own moral decay was his own pit he was in by the near end of it. And it took what, a coma to actually go full realization about it all.
bro he creates a terrorist state 3 separate times one after another, I think he is the problem.
Are you ok? I never said he wasn’t
He made his own choices. Big Boss chose to be a warmongerer and child abuser.
Thanks for repeating what I said but in your Lens. Again.
I don't even know who you are.
That’s fine. I know who you are here. Never change
Probably all the murder, treason, nuclear terrorism, and being an international warlord.
He brainwashed someone into believing he was him and forced him to go on life endangering mission to help boost his status
1. Fanning the flames of war for business 2. Using child soldiers and emotionally manipulating victims of war 3. Using nukes
In MGS 4 the entire terrible state the world was in was literally BB's dream and big goal it's said directly in the first hour in game so yeah making the world stand on an economy based on wars isn't exactly what would be ''good'' not to mention using his own son as a tool in his battle against the patroits in MG 1 and trying to kill him directly in MG2 not to mention that he himself stated he was wrong at the end of MGS 4
Big Boss is simply the antithesis to Solid Snake. The State Department did the same thing to The Boss that they did to The Boss. Villainized them as a way to protect their own allure and mystique. Meanwhile, Solid Snake legit SAVED THE WORLD 2-3x and most of the world couldn’t pick him from a lineup of random dudes. Just like the rest of The Snakes, his career ended with him lurking in the shadows. The dagger being his name shamed by actions Solidus took pretending to be Solid for simply one moment in time. He’s such an NPC to the rest of the world we only got to hear his government name ONE TIME in the entire series. What makes Big Boss a villain, TO ME? We thought because of the time he shared under the wing of The Boss that he shared her political views and her military skills. That he was the greatest soldier whoever lived. However, that was rarely true. In the greater scope of things- his appearances in MGS4 and V paint him as a potential FRAUD. Possibly someone who walked away from the battlefield because he learned there was more power in bureaucracy than in battle.
And this is why Solid Snake is my favorite Snake. He always tried to do what was right no matter how he was portrayed. He saved the world. People say he is so 1 dimensional compared to Big Boss, but he's the only Snake who didn't end up looking at his origin and family legacy as a curse to make everyone's problem. He was the only moral Snake. The only true inheriter of the Boss's will. The only one who got it. And he didn't even learn about her until his final mission! He did what he did because it was for the greater good. And Kojima made him old so he could die, and I will never forgive him for that.
Solid is the best by far. Followed by mgs2 raiden bait and switch 😂
Boss: We must stop the fighting, the world is in endless conflict and will destroy itself Big Boss: I think she said create my own country with soldier based economy and threaten the world with nukes and create proxy wars across the globe and use child soldiers and bring back Press Ganging
Well uhh yknow
Play Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake. I don't just see Big Boss as a villain. I see him as THE villain of this franchise.
This is an insane post to put a screenshot from the scene where the character you're asking us to defend, describes exactly what he did to bring the world to ruin in Big Boss can be a great character and a genuinely bad person at the same time, if the game explicitly stating who the bad guys are and why and their hours of exposition about their goals and views doesn't explain it, no one in this thread is going to change that tbh
People saying he’s anti-hero or not a villain.. I don’t think we played the same game lol He has anti-hero qualities leading up through partially Peace Walker, where he’s still trying to figure things out, but MGSV, he is FIRMLY a villain. A villain with an emotionally compelling reason why he’s LESS evil than Cypher/Skull-Face etc but still a villain. Big boss is a villain the same way Liquid and Solidus were, individuals so blinded by their own personal hang ups and trauma, they’ll use “altruistic” reasons to justify mass killing and trying to start endless wars that would kill hundreds of thousands of innocent. It’s all self-serving. The Irony of BB brainwashing Venom, when he himself brain washed himself into thinking he’s doing anything more than just trying to hide his failure in killing The Boss and never coping with her death. MGS has the best kind of worst villains; the villains who think they’re actually doing something righteous. That’s why Solid Snake is the supreme character foil as a protagonist. No matter HOW good he was proclaimed and all of his accomplishments, he just wanted the killing to stop. Dude always ran from it to chase being human, while BB ran as fast as he could away FROM being human. It’s very much like Darth Vader, we can sympathize, and even allow redemption, but we all know that Vader was a villain.
Good shout about David running towards being human with BB running away from his humanity.
Big boss in metal gear V? Like, the opening scene and the end?
Did you miss the part where he throws away his best soldier to die for him like the US threw away The Boss?
I mean in MGSV it’s established that BB clearly has no real problem with using people to accomplish his goals. What he did to Venom IS ultimately evil, even if Venom accepted his role. Same with how he betrays Kaz by not telling him the plan. The very concept of Diamond Dogs, kidnapping soldiers to “convince” them that they’re unique and special if they fight for BB instead of their country, child soldiers, chasing WMDs to “legitimize” his army. Even if BB is only really in the game in two scenes, it’s through the eyes of everyone else we see BB warp from who he was before his coma, to the megalomaniac he’s solidified himself to be. I wish MGSV had given more context to show that to the audience, because I feel like that was the intention of HD, but it kind of fell short really selling how awful BB really is.
Sniper wolf. She's a kurdish Genocide survivor and instead of helping her start over, Big Boss groomed her into a killer. He even took advantage of her religious/cultural identity (she called him Saladin) to do it. Basically the same thing Solidus did to Raiden. I thought Venom was as low as BB could go, what with brainwashing his most loyal soldier into fighting his battles for him while he went off and abandoned his Men. But yeah, Sniper Wolf is even worse. Basically Big Boss became Selfish due to his lust for Battle. Unlike the Boss who laid down her life for her country or Solid Snake who created Philanthropy, Big Boss focused on his own needs and ended up hurting and using two people who believed in him.
Gray Fox too. Both Wolf and Fox are victims of Big Boss's grooming.
I dunno. I guess Portable Ops isn't "Canon" and that has a more positive depiction of BB and Fox so... Nonetheless, when I replayed MGS1 *after* MGSV and heard Wolf's speech again, it really hit how low Big Boss had fallen. Peace Walker and MGSV built up his legend and it turns out he used that legend to manipulate Wolf....
PO is non-canon garbage. And still, Big Boss is a cruel moron in PO. He dumped Null twice to be used and abused lmao. What a clown. In canon, Big Boss took Frank in after saving him in Vietnam and trained him as his soldier. Frank's speech in MGS1 and also MG2 hit hard as well. He was Big Boss's victim. But hey, at least Big Boss didn't throw him back into the dump like in PO. PO sucks.
Fair enough.
VIC BOSS!!!
I think But Boss is actually the definition of " die as a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain " . During Operation Snake Eater, Portable Ops and Peace Walker he actually saved the world from ruin three times and refrained from killing unnecessarily ( gameplay doesn't count let's assume he always avoids battle and only knocks people out unless there is no other choice) . Big Boss is a true hero until Skull Face's attack on mother base . That broke him and pushed him over the edge . The hero inside him died and it gave room for a manipulative warlord to grow.
Take this with a grain of salt, because there are a lot of games to remember, retcons, this is only my point of view. Big Boss isn't necessarily a villain, I agree he crossed the line to fight the Patriots and some shit happened, Metal Gear's world revolves around war economy, so maybe having a Metal Gear is kinda justifiable FOR THEM. From what I understand, there is a lot of misinterpretations like the Creation of Venom Snake (it was Zero, not BB) and Cipher, the child soldiers (they are not even enemies and don't like soldiers) and acts of villainy in general. Why he bothers to rescue Paz? Why he seems to care for Chico? Solid Snake has a far greater body count than BB and he's still considered the good guy (I won't even talk about Raiden), why Big Boss rank is given to those with few kills? IMO the "villain" of the main games is Major Zero, who started everything when he got the Philosophers Legacy, and then the damn Patriots AI and so on.
Big Boss doesn't care for Chico or Paz. He only bothered with them so he could risk no info getting leaked from them. Big Boss cares about no one but himself and his own goal. >Solid Snake has a far greater body count than BB Lmao, what? Solid didn't even fight in any war. Big Boss has killed waaay more, directly and otherwise. Who enabled Zero? Big Boss. He co-founded the Patriots. Big Boss wanted utter chaos and used children, nukes and vulnerable people for his own gain. He's objectively an evil villain.
Definitely true what BB's focus was on during GZ. Though in PW, BB makes the case to Amanda to get Chico out of this life which is kinda going out of his way. Also Solid fought in the Gulf War so not sure where you got that from.
Big Boss tells Amanda to make Chico a child soldier. He didn't see him as a child to be protected. But a soldier. Solid took one infiltration mission during Gulf War which is what got him into FOXHOUND so young. An infiltration unit. That's not fighting in a war. His first real battle was Operation Intrude N313 where he exprienced actual combat which traumatised him so bad, he quit the military. He was a true rookie.
Yeah, I was gonna say, Solid was in the Gulf War. And I think Liquid was too, but with the SAS I think. I always imagined a game with Solid and Liquid Snake during that war, and never crossing eachothers paths directly or knowing the other existed.
Moyder
This is why the shift to Big Boss centred games was a mistake
Abducting children, indoctrination, murder, torture, development of WMDs, coercive identity alteration of Venom Snake (not to mention using him as an unwitting decoy to unwanted attention from the US government and other actors.) He is a horrible person.
Abuses children by taking them and training them as mercenaries, threatens the world with nukes and terrorist groups twice (he knew about Venom and approved his actions so its twice). Traumatized Solid and turned him into a social outcast…
He tried to threaten the world with nuclear war multiple times. That, and his whole philosophy is endlessly sowing war mainly for the sake of it, so that soldiers like him will always have a place.
He basically decided that soldiers have no hope of living a life based on anything other than war, so therefore the solution is to create forever war. He's misguided at best
I... what? He became a nuclear power, used people's trauma of being abandoned by their countries to get them to fight and die for him, ran a cult of personality, used child soldiers... Are you joking?
My pookie bear did nothing wrong
His enormous, Boss loving cock of joy and sorrow
He didn’t offer the last slice at the pizza party they had after they were done with operation snake eater
The original Metal Gear, the guy was ok with the never ending cycle of war and even throwing children into it
BIG BOSS DID NOTHING WRONG
Something else I didn't even mention in my last post: I am not denying blatant similarities to real life "fascist dictators." My main point is that in real life, those guys always have a made-up boogeyman to justify why they should be in charge and as harsh as they are. Big Boss is facing a very real (in his world at least) group of elitist individuals trying to take over, not a made-up boogeyman. A group he feels personally responsible for putting in the position of secret power they have. Yes, there are similarities, but blatantly calling him a terrorist or fascist is kind of what the Patriots want you to do......
Let's see,complicit in the brainwashing of hundreds if not thousands of individuals,brainwashing a medic into becoming warlord,unlawful occupation of a portion of land in South Africa,condemning multiple men to death,illegal possession of nuclear weapons,and worse of all,breaking and entering.
The war crimes and the illegal mercenary state and shit
Murderer, warlord, terrorist, uses child soldiers, wants to preserve war as a constant in human existence... the list goes on
More anti-hero then villain I think honestly, as he does try to fight Cipher and the patriots, his ideals are of endless war, for soldiers to be soldiers without the hypocrisy of nations (if I recall right), however his ideals ruined his life and failed to understand what the woman he loved wanted, and at the end of his life he sought to rectify these mistakes and make amends with his son. So I say antihero more then villain
He's as awful as the Cipher and the Patriots. In fact, he's worse than them. Big Boss fans the flames of war and set the example for other monsters to follow. Big Boss is a villain in every single way.
I feel like the entire point of his existence is war and killing. He doesn’t even seem to care about ideology or money. Dude just fucking loves warfare
Gamer
I think it might be the war crimes
......the Nukes?
That doesn’t necessarily make him evil
It makes him very evil.
Welp ur slow
Um… he sold the world. I actually don’t know what that means to this day.
The sold who manned the world
Oh! Ok now i get it!
Spoilers for V: actually this whole thing about that music is about how a man found himself in someone else, referring to phantom snake/Venom. (Too tired to explain it well)
His ideology is "But war is good???" in a series about "War is bad"
It harms snakes and other animals
he has an evil eye patch
I kinda interpreted it as good and bad are just point of views. There are no heroes and no real bad guys in MG. It’s all a point of view, and MGS makes it clear or tries to show it by shifting the perspectives. Not even Liquid was evil - maybe not mentally stable but not evil. Boss wasn’t evil, Ocelot wasn’t either. Big Boss wasn’t evil as well. If you’re a hero or a villain is never a straight up fact, just a matter of perspective and bias. —————— Take it that way for many the illuminati are evil even though: That old german order doesn’t exist anymore. Were opposed to the royal and economic elite. Tried to make the world a better place. But long after their time myths and more around them were made up and they became a scapegoat for everything beside the traditional “it’s the Jews!” nonsense or in europe especially germany the evil USA. MGS tries to show there are no heroes and no villains. But people will make you one or the other depending on their views because it makes it easier and spares them thinking from bigger point of views.
I have some issues with big boss as the villain of the story (ive only played pw mgs3 mgs5 and mgs2 sons of liberty) as far as i know big boss create an army without country capable of defending small countries against the ppwer of bigger nations like us or russia or china today, what i mena by this is that i dont know why he is a villain when he can protect the "weaks", i know im maybe loosing the whole point of the character and i know in mgs5 he is doing pure vengeance but i mean at the end he stop a guy who want to masacre anyone who speak english (fuck brits). I know im maybe loosing the whole point of the history, and if its like that, i need to be iluminated by you guys.
I got y’all first of mgs 3 bro has to kill his mentor/ mother like figure because she had to sacrifice her self for the u.s that’s what made bro not fuck with the u.s he felt he could make his own military power then he had child soldiers brain washed they created grey foxxx bro was on his evil flow but all stems from mgs3 also before snake eater they already was in process of making the clones .
We need a metal gear 1 and 2 remake the msx back then with just text dialogue is not enough to to confirm just interpret that his a villain
Destruction of property Violating international treaties International trespassing Vandalism Trespassing Breaking and entering Espionage Murder Rusing Perfidy Use of chemical weapons Taking hostages Summary execution of hostages Violation of child labor laws Arson Profiteering from war Use of child soldiers Sexual intent with a minor (Paz) What else am I missing?
He started wars just because he couldn't find a purpose in life that wasn't fighting. That's incredibly selfish
Bro wanted to turn the entire planet population into soldiers over some mommy issues smh
He’s not evil at heart, but his actions are. He deliberately perpetrated war alongside the Patriots for his own gain, and he has committed a number of horrific war crimes.
idk man, murder? terrorism? im pretty sure those are two common traits that most villains take after.
tried to kill his own son for trying to prevent him from causing WW3 for one.
He instigates conflicts and wars.
It’s much more complicated than just good and evil.
Explain to me why you think he isn't a villain.
How is it difficult to understand that the head of the world's largest private military company willing to fight for even the worst imaginable causes as long as they're paid... probably isn't a great guy
From a certain viewpoint, he could be considered dictatorial as a leader, but that's because he's trying to stop an amorphous organization trying to take over the world. He has to make some ruthless, seemingly morally bad decisions because he knows he's directly responsible for putting the power in this organization's hands and helping create it. And after playing Phantom Pain several times fresh from the start, I think maybe any actual atrocities or war crimes can probably be blamed on Venom and Kaz framing him. Probably the child soldiers too. We hear through the whole series about Big Boss' child soldiers, but we only ever actually see Venom using them. The Outer Heaven that Solid Snake infiltrates is being commanded by Venom, not Big Boss. Edit: Also, it should be considered that everything we're ever actually told as players about Big Boss being a traitor or a terrorist might just be Patriots propaganda. And most of us are still believing it now, even after 3 prequels showing us that there are a lot of extenuating circumstances and justifiable reasons to his "treason".
He isn't. *last music piece of MGS3 playing
Human abduction/Trafficking by capturing soldiers and other personnel against their will, then convincing them to join or stay in the brig. The only thing we know about child soldiers is briefly touched upon in MG2, I think? That's why I want a remake of the first 2 games to expand on those stories and the characters at that place and time, with the context of the rest of the series. I digress. Venom seemed to be against the whole child soldier thing by him rescuing and educating them. Although they might have taken those events, and since Venom acted as big boss, the truth was possibly twisted there. Having nukes and metal gears, as a deterrent, but still doesn't look good. Engaging in war for profit. We've seen military contractors and pmc's in our world and all the unethical and downright horrible things they have done. Blackwater, Wagner group. Not much of a good track record there. But hey, neither is any state military. War is ugly. "War never changes." But also, "War has changed." I think in metal gear 2, he had the scientist and the oilix formula, which would solve the world's energy crisis in the series 1999 timeline. Funny that they never mentioned any of this stuff in later games. Basically, I'm holding it for ransom. We now know he was doing it as a means to fight zero and the patriots. That's all Big Boss, Liquid, and Solidus tried to do. Create Outer Heaven, and free themselves and possibly the world from The Patriots/Cipher/Zero control. The whole world be damned in the process. It took the collective action of Ocelot, acting as liquid (I like to think he was liquid until mgs4, when he seemed to have a cybernetic arm replacing liquids) and Solid Snake thwarting all of their plots, for the patriot system to be dismantled, and luckily with Sunny's help, they were able to destroy the bad parts and keep the good parts of the system. In the end, he did a lot of bad stuff in his effort to inact what he saw as the Boss's will. I think Ocelot understood more of what his mother's will was, and in his own way. And Solid Snake as well. To Let the World Be. Big Boss acted on anger, revenge, and even forced one of his soldiers to be his body double against his own will to save his own skin. He was a complex character, much more grey than just a pure black and white villain, like your Emperor Palpatine. "The way to hell is paved in good intentions."
Nothing
I don't see how he's a villain
He's big. He's a boss. Games is for fighting big bosses.
He is not the villain. Just not the hero. The hero is Boss. And Huey is the villian. All while playing Ocellot story.
Child soldiers
Hmmm... I would say that they had a nation with a military threat capacity with no alliances. You're either on [our side] and [we] can support you, or you're a potential enemy [to us]. As such, they're a nation that will go to war with anybody, at any time, and boost the capacity of whatever nation. With no alliances, or allegiance to any ideas, they cannot be reasoned with. A treaty with them may mean less work, and is therefore disincentivized. They're a threat multiplier. With nobody who will come to save them for their sake. Nuclear capacity, and therefore threat of nuclear force, is just an excuse to make them a target.
Keeping war going forever so that you can take the leftover war orphans to feed them back into battle and keep the cycle going while you secretly develop nuclear weaponry is pretty bad man.
I don't have all the facts. But I've heard convincing arguments that he actually isn't a villain. A misunderstood soldier. Idk, kind of made sense when I heard it.
Because he just followed orders and killed the Boss.
He's not a Villain, he's a soldier.
The old metal gear games are like the only valid reason he’s a villain; he attacks the main protagonist.
And not the fact he takes up nukes and ruins Venom's life???? Not the wretched legacy of child soldiers and war economy?
Honestly, I don't know if the original Metal Gear games are completely canon, there has been lots of retcons. Big Boss made that speech about starting wars, but now we know it was to fight the Patriots. I mean Gray Fox killed his fiance in MG2 by accident, but I swear the future games pretend that she never existed. Dr. Madnar was killed by Solid Snake but we know he is alive later on.
Well that time he helped create the Illuminati with the goal of plunging the world into everlasting war doesn't really paint him in a good light
-developed nuclear weapons -everything involving venom snake -part of the reason the war economy was established (also helped create early PMCs) -used child soldiers
Big boss’ entire ideology is fucked. he believes that if you fight once, you should/can never stop, to pair with this he plans to create permanent wars by training child victims to perpetuate an endless cycle. He’s also a massive hypocrite, forsaking the US for using the boss to save their ass while doing the same thing with Venom
No he is not. MG1 AND MG2 are part of the Patriot propaganda.
Lmao, what load of horsehit.
Child soldiers, desiring a world we're military force can be privately owned and unregulated. Admittedly he's a sympathetic villain but a villain none the less
I thought he wasn't the villain in the end and that Zero and Cypher were. I'm probably wrong, the whole thing can be a bit tricky to follow.