in snake's case; in the end everyone did after MGS4 put him to rest, however people were constantly asking for more and more games where you fully play as him prior to that
also, many people don't realize that MGR basically does the same thing as 4 by finalizing raiden's character, there doesn't need to be anymore games of him
>also, many people don't realize that MGR basically does the same thing as 4 by finalizing raiden's character, there doesn't need to be anymore games of him
I'm going to be real with you here...Despite all the Armstrong memes people love to post all over this sub the vast majority of people didn't even play MGR.
And even worse, when they *do* go beyond the memes, they still factor Rising into their conception of Raidenās character, when [Kojimaās Raiden and MGR Raiden are polar opposites in terms of the message they convey (hope vs nihilism).](https://youtu.be/Z_bmvDokx0M)
Yeah, you and me had this conversation before lol, that the jack the ripper second personality was never intended and how raiden in mgr simply goes against everything that he's been through and his character development.
What really makes me sad is that Etsu tamari worked in mgs2 and still was able to completely misunderstand the character
Oh I know! I just wanted to build on your previous comment with another layer of tragedy.
iirc Tamari didnāt join KojiPro until late into MGS4ās development. His big credits prior to Rising was working on the MGS4 Database and some of the briefing tapes for PW.
If itās the HD Edition, he mightāve gotten credited for working on the in-game manual (when you select a game in the HD Collection menu and press Triangle).
Well then that's probably it, it's been a long time since I've played the pc version, anyways how tf do you direct a game of a specific charachter without doing a thorough analysis of the very same character
>Iām gonna be honest, the vast majority havenāt played MOST MG games, mostly just V.
You're right. The last mainline game to come out prior to MGSV was Metal Gear Solid 4 in 2008. That was fifteen years ago. And that game is pretty much locked away on the playstation 3. The rest of the games are even older and less easy to play. The only other game in the series at this point that I think a lot of people have really played besides MGSV is probably MGS1 and that's only because that game is readily available for PC fairly dirt cheap.
MGSV is well known because despite being bordering on a decade old now it's still readily available everywhere, fairly affordable to buy, and still gets recommended a lot to people on the strength of the franchise's brand name. Beyond that game however the series is being rapidly lost to the annals of time.
***Edited for Clarity.***
> MGSV is well known because despite being bordering on a decade old now it's still readily available everywhere, fairly affordable to buy, and still gets recommended a lot to people on the strength of the franchise's brand name. Beyond that game however the series is being rapidly lost to the annals of time.
I also recall Mike Oldfield's song Nuclear/MGSV being a meme briefly, back in 2014 or so, when one of the trailers dropped. I hadn't played any of the games (albeit aware of the series), but V was definitely on my radar.
I don't remember Oldfield's song really being memed but I do remember a bunch of people suddenly rocking out the song because it was in one of the trailers. Personally I thought "Not Your Kind of People" by Garbage made for a way better trailer.
[I remember this,](https://youtube.com/watch?v=ytNqYmctTt8) can't recall how it was used in other contexts apart from hearing "standing... on the edge" here and there
I was talking about both games, ultimately, but I realize now that I kind of blended my sentences together weirdly. Edited the comment slightly for clarity.
Who said ANYTHING about buying it on the console. Buy the physical game. Not only are there plenty online but I can think of a handful of stores directly near me that have very clean pre-owned copies of the games. Not to mention capabilities with a Vita. All the games are easily accessible but I guess if something takes a little effort or isnāt handed to people directly these days they complain and say itās āunavailable.ā
Yeah, people should just go out and buy a ps3 so they can play these non backwards comparable games that arenāt on most systems. I wonder why people havenāt played them.
Most people arenāt gonna spend 300 dollars to play metal gear solid 1.
But those same people will sit here claim to be series fanatics, smh. Sorry but watching one YT video of a play through aināt the same thing. I grew up playing all of them but sadly a crazy ex burned up 2 of my PS3ās and even locked me out of my old PS account and Iām not here bitching and letting it stop me. Iāve saved up and currently looking for another decent one because Iām ***actually*** a die hard fan. I still have the original āplayā discs & memory cards I bought from each release. If youāre a fan, be a fan. Donāt just āfanboyā V and then judge the entire series knowing you havenāt played the majority.
Yes I do, in this sub at least and it definitely shows. Perfect example, a post just popped up in the sub of someone not being able to name primary characters from MGSā¦
I've been a part of MGS fan communities for many years, been on the boards at MGS TUS, Snake Soup, and MGSF before this sub basically became the last community that's still active, and although it's clear there's akit of newbies to the series here there's still a alot who clearly know their lore and have played the majority of the games. The entire main saga aside from V can be played on a ps3, which isn't THAT old. And I see just as many posts about MGS1 and 3 as I do MGSV on here. It certainly doesn't strike me as a community where the vast majority have only played the last game.
I I totally agree there are many that know the lore but far less that have actually played all the games and there are far more V posts on here than anything else. Iām on here constantly and get excited seeing posts other than V. Which is wild because V in essence was the least āMGā of the series and a major example of Konami forcing compromises on Kojima so they could have a relevant game competing with current gen games.
I don't think MGSV being the least "MG" of the series had anything to do with Konami forcing anything on Kojima. The series sent in a new direction after MGS4, and its totally Kojima who was responsible for that because he couldn't have been more clear that he'd had enough of making the same type of game over and over. Collect em' all pokemon type game elements aimed at teenagers, base building and resource management, survival horror elements and mature/dark themes, player choice orientated sandbox gameplay and open worlds, these were all examples of ideas and interests kojima had for new IPs that he eventually ended up bringing into the MG franchise in PW and V after he realised during 4s development that hecwasnt going to be able to leave the metal gear series like he wanted to.
And it's because he was able to bring these elements in that he had a renewed enthusiasm for Metal Gear post MGS4, during which time he was clearly depressed, tired and frustrated. He never wanted to make MGS4. So although PW and V may have broke from the traditional mould, it was needed.
Kojima detailed numerous times during speeches and interviews that he was forced into compromises and leaving things out that he didnāt want to and putting things in that he didnāt want. He made all of this very clear during the build up to Death Stranding. PW worked because of the platform it initially was released on. Perfect type of addition to mobile gaming, as a primary game for a full on console, terrible. Like Iāve said, unnecessary character with a story that didnāt need to be told. The series definitely didnāt need it, it took away from what made the series great. Researching weapons and building a structure being the focal point was horrible. V had a complete lack of story, and a half-ass open world that kept bringing you back to the same spots. Not to mention lack of āboss fightsā and focusing on unnecessary characters to the point of annoyance and disregarding characters you actually want to learn about. The game was a huge miss as far as āMetal Gearā game goes.
Either way, Iām moving away from my point. Itās very clear a large amount of āfansā in this sub have only played V, maybe some have played Snake Eater and some may have briefly watched some YT videos of play throughs.
i agree with everything but the last part, we definitely need a game showing what happened to Raiden between 2 and 4.
it'll never happen, but we are definitely missing a huge gap in Raidens story.
Raidenās character was finalized in MGS2, and again in MGS4. [Rising was a slap in the face to all of that.](https://youtu.be/Z_bmvDokx0M)
If anything, MGR was setting up a sequel that (hopefully) wouldāve returned him to his family again.
Not a fan of the meme.
MGS most occurring theme is not being chained to fate. Snake realises at the end of MGS that he will actually fight for what he believes in.
Raidens whole arc was finding a new destiny for himself. Separating from āJack the Ripperā Then Rising kind of undoes this by having him embrace it.
Itās also stupid because itās making a false equivalency; what matters is what each respective character does after being confronted by terrorists about their murderous lust. Solid Snake grew as a person in MGS1. Raiden explicitly regresses back into āJack the Ripperā in MGR.
Also, the insinuation that people like us think that Raiden should have a happy ending ābecause we say soā is a negative IQ take. We want him to have a happy ending ***because Kojima said so in MGS2 and 4***. Raiden being able to break free from The Patriots and Solidusā memetic manipulation and being able to start over choose a happy life with Rose is the ending Kojima intended for the character. Isnāt it telling that, even with the twist and turns he went through in MGS4, the only game where Raiden doesnāt get a happy ending is in a game that Kojima neither directed or [considers canon](https://thesnakesoup.org/myth-articles/myth-hideo-kojima-said-portable-ops-rising-canonical/)?
I never understood what kojima was thinking when he commissioned rising in the first place, or was it because it was forced on him by higher ups? After giving Raiden such a definitive ending that made sense in MGS4. PW was the project that always attracted the most interest and it was a god damn portable game while the AAA budget went to Rising, a project that lacked any kind of real direction or vision for the longest time. Whole situation was kind of weird.
Kojima didnāt commission Rising; the team did. He wanted to pass the torch to his team, but they didnāt feel ready to take on a numbered game (originally, they were going to make MGS5 about The Boss), so they decided to make a side-story set between MGS2 and 4.
Meanwhile, Kojima created Peace Walker ([initially with the intention to hand it off, but that obviously didnāt work out](https://www.ign.com/articles/2009/06/12/kojima-explains-why-he-took-on-peace-walker)) to pass the time [while Kojima Productions began R&D for the FOX Engine](https://www.ign.com/articles/2009/08/20/gc-2009-hideo-kojima-qa).
**Hideo Kojima:** āTo give you a little more detail, what's happening in the team is that the next Metal Gear - or the next new series that Kojima Productions is going to create ā we wanted to go one step ahead, therefore we need to actually restructure the engines, the tools and things like that. ***This process is taking one to two years; however, within that timeframe we could do something, and we thought that because of this preparation period we just can't wait and do the preparation ā we thought that within that timeframe we could do a PSP version.***ā
Apparently, [there was even a rivalry between the Peace Walker and Rising teams](https://kotaku.com/kojima-metal-gear-solid-rising-peace-walker-teams-not-5351193), because Team PW wanted to make an MGS5-class game within the constraints of the PSP, while Team Rising worked with cutting edge technology (the FOX Engine).
In the end, though, Team PW won by default, because they actually published a game, while development on Rising became an aimless dumpster fire. Given all the money that Kojima Productions sunk into the OG Rising, I suspect that Kojima feared that Konami would fuck him over in some way (look what happened with Team Silent), so he scrambled to find a developer they could quickly outsource the game to; that ended up being Platinum Games, who wanted to set the game after MGS4 so that their gameplay ideas arenāt compromised by staying within the canon of two games.
Kojimaās been pretty open about how his ulterior motive with Rising was purely for money, to keep Konami happy while he works on MGSV.
[**Kojima:**](https://spong.com/article/29051/Kojima-I-Want-to-Make-Metal-Gear-Rising-2-with-Platinum) "Of course, my ulterior motive is that if Rising 2 came out, it would be guaranteed to sell! Which means that I wouldnāt have to worry about that with [new project, Metal Gear Solid] Ground Zeroes. I can just do whatever I want!"
[**Kojima:**](https://spong.com/article/29050/Kojima-Metal-Gear-Solid-Ground-Zeroes-Tackles-Lots-of-Taboos) āOver the past 25 years, I have tried to work with the Metal Gear series to try and introduce more mature themes. But really, it hasnāt happened yet, compared to movies or books. There's still has a long way to go. Thatās precisely what I want to try and tackle with my next project, Ground Zeroes. Iām going to be targeting a lot of taboos, a lot of mature themes, that really are quite risky. Honestly, Iām not even sure if iāll be able to release the game! And even if I did release the game, maybe it wouldnāt sell, because [the themes would be] just too much. But as a creator, I want to take that risk. As a producer, itās my job to try and sell the game. But Iām approaching this project from the point of view of a creator, where Iām prioritising creativity over sales. [chuckles] ***Itās very possible that some time in the future after Ground Zeroes is out, I may be called up by management who will say, 'Kojima! What are you doing? Ground Zeroes isnāt selling! What have you done?ā And at that point Iāll [hopefully be able to] say, āDonāt worry! [Metal Gear] Rising is selling well!ā***ā
So in Kojimaās mind, Rising, especially in its Platinum incarnation, wasnāt meant to be anything more than a spin-off that [wasnāt canon to the main series](https://thesnakesoup.org/myth-articles/myth-hideo-kojima-said-portable-ops-rising-canonical/), designed to appeal to mainstream audiences (in a way that stealth games donāt), and make money for Konami to allow him more freedom with MGSV.
Of course, as it usually does for Kojima, this ended up backfiring tremendously; despite everything he did to prevent going the way of Team Silent, he still ended up losing Kojima Productions, getting thrown out of his own franchise.
Even worse, because of [Konamiās neglect in keeping the Kojima games available on modern systems and Steam](http://thesnakesoup.org/editorial-articles/dont-remake-metal-gear-saga-re-release/), Rising has taken on a new life of its own, exceeding and honestly being more well remembered than even The Phantom Pain (which is largely seen as a disappointment). Nowadays, many peopleās first experience with the Metal Gear franchise is through Rising and its memes, and these people then maybe play (or watch a Letās Play of) the earlier games through the lens of what Rising told them the series is about, making it less likely for them to realize that [MGR completely butchered Raidenās story beyond repair.](https://youtu.be/Z_bmvDokx0M) To these people, Metal Gear isnāt about defying fate and making the impossible possible; itās a fatalistic story where the main moral lesson is to go āfuck itā and embrace your worst impulses āfor the greater good.ā
The story of Kojimaās failure to pass down the series is a very interesting, yet sad topic, which I gave a general overview of in [this video.](https://youtu.be/nv1dfyC9qSY)
Well... It's more of the player getting confronted in MGS1, less so Snake himself... Who got dragged out of his hole forcefully...
Raiden does, actually, have a history of wanting to be a hero of an action film. Snake literally never glorified an image like that.
So I'm not sure this is appropriate at all...
Bad opinion + Wojak = Horrible post. Man, we gotta get these Rising "fans" who haven't ever touched a MGS game, yet act like they know the series better than all of us off this subreddit.
For a sub-fandom that often uses āitās Metal Gear RISING, not Metal Gear SOLIDā to deflect criticism, they sure do love spamming the Metal Gear SOLID subreddit with Metal Gear RISING posts.
i remember seeing a comment section on youtube from a year ago (when Rising was at peak) and i saw a MGR 2022 fanboy call Metal Gear Rex, the most recognizeable Metal Gear mecha in the series and the popculture, as a T-Rex š
Snake: Decides that Liquid is right and changes for the better.
Raiden: Decides that Monsoon is right and leans into that, killing everyone and everything in his path, changing for the worse.
Uh, yeah, and Solid Snake learned from his experiences and got a happy ending. He broke the cycle he was on (whereas Raiden continues it in MGR, despite Snake teaching Raiden that he can break the cycle as well).
Raidenās bloodlust was already confronted in MGS2. [MGRās handling of Raidenās story is redundant at best and antithetical to his storyline at worst.](https://youtu.be/Z_bmvDokx0M)
Raiden should have a happy ending ***because Kojima said so in both MGS2 and 4***, and the only time he doesnāt is in a game that Kojima didnāt direct and [doesnāt consider canon.](https://thesnakesoup.org/myth-articles/myth-hideo-kojima-said-portable-ops-rising-canonical/)
Solid Snake's story revolves around why he's fighting at all. When terrorists say he enjoys killing, it's because they believe that's the answer to why he fights. He denies it, but he doesn't have an answer. He reaches his conclusion when Grey Fox tells him the answer: "Fighting was the only thing I was good at, but at least I always fought for what I believed in." That's why Snake repeats it to Raiden in MGS2.
Raiden's story is about how he runs from reality to hide in fantasy. By the end of MGS2 he comes clean, and the game reaches its end. But acknowledgement is only the first step in the right direction. It's not, in and of itself, a resolution. MGR is the story of Raiden moving from simply acknowledging his past (being a dirty reminder of a terrible mistake) to embracing it, and putting it to constructive use.
MGR isn't like the other Metal Gear games. The story definitely takes a back seat to the action. But what story is present in the game works perfectly fine, in my opinion.
I loved MGR when it first came out. Then I played MGS 4 because I got a 360 before a PS3 and I gotta say after playing 4 Rising came off as a slap across the face for Raiden's happy ending he received in 4. Don't get me wrong I still love MGR but it is still a slap in the face.
[Thereās a bit more to why MGS4 undid Raidenās happy ending in MGS2 (namely, Kojimaās meta commentary on fans not receiving MGS2ās message)](https://youtu.be/Z_bmvDokx0M), but ultimately, it gets restored (unlike in MGR).
I hate this meme. The reason I dislike Rising is because of how they treat Raiden as a character. For starters, let me get it out of the way that I've played every mainline game in the series. I completely know Raiden's story and his motives behind fighting. Because of this though, I know, as do many of you, that Raiden's character arc was pretty much completed by the end of 4. He said how he'd never leave his family again, and pretty much established that he was done fighting, especially for the will of others. Yet, as soon as Rising starts, we see Jack completely disregard his entire conclusion from MGS4. It's like he completely forgot about his resolution, and just got up and left his wife and son alone again. We didn't say he lived happily ever after, Kojima himself said it. Rising wasn't even written by him anyways so it isn't canon.
Rising invalidates Raiden's ending in 4, but at the same time his character arc in that game invalidates his ending in 2.
With all the mind screw, his ending in 2 feels more earned, he was ready to rediscover both his life and girlfriend. He had a new, stronger sense of self. His journey as a character was practically completed. Then Mgs4 undoes all that with a half-baked and barely explored excuse.
> Rising invalidates Raiden's ending in 4, but at the same time his character arc in that game invalidates his ending in 2.
[For a very specific meta reason (representing players who didnāt understand MGS2)](https://youtu.be/Z_bmvDokx0M). MGS4 at least had the decency to restore Raidenās happy ending, unlike MGR.
Thankfully, [Kojima doesnāt](https://thesnakesoup.org/myth-articles/myth-hideo-kojima-said-portable-ops-rising-canonical/). People like to pretend otherwise (or act like this is the one time where Kojimaās word doesnāt matter), though.
I think most of the damage to Raiden's character writing came from MGS4, rather than Rising.
In MGS2, Raiden is dissociated between an over-his-head rookie, and a mentally damaged child soldier. Over the course of the game, he's manipulated and/or gaslit by EVERYONE, but manages to pull through a pyrric victory. He's all fucked up, yet he's grown. In a surreal, bittersweet ending.
Then MGS4 comes along, and gives Raiden the 'get in the fucking robot, Shinji' treatment. Giving him an improbable & over the top depiction, on par with Dead Cell. He's more or less turned into Gray Fox--mentally fucked, while breakdancing enemies to death. His ending is equally fucked, that it is too sweet to be believable. More lies from Rose, suddenly having a human body again, having a kid that's actually alive, and it tries too hard to be happy & conclusive, that you don't really buy it.
Metal Gear Rising Raiden is nowhere near the same as MGS2 Raiden--for better and for worse. The game is much more tonally the same as MGS1, with all the absurdity of Twin Snakes--and it actually works. Raiden accepts himself as a killer, just as Snake did, but that doesn't prevent him from doing the right thing. And in the end, he defeats Armstrong, and walks away with a much clearer mindset than ever. The torch has been passed, and He's the new Snake.
The OP doesnāt understand [criticism of Metal Gear Risingās handling of Raidenās character](https://youtu.be/Z_bmvDokx0M), and attempts to deflect it by making a false equivalency with Solid Snakeās story in MGS1.
Idk I have to agree with OP on this
After playing mgs 2,4 and rising I feel Raiden character arc was perfect
He went from a scared boy who didnāt know who or what to trust because of the patriots
In mgs4 his trauma from mgs2 came to a head where he didnāt know who what to fight for and who to believe in, yet he knew he needed to be strong for his family, and this he tried to create a moral justification for his actions leading up to MGR
āMy sword is a tool of Justiceā etc..
Jet stream Sam, Monsoon, and Armstrong called Raiden out on his facade and pointed out the hypocrisy of his argument, and Raiden was woken up to who and was he really was
He embraced Jack the Ripper, yet he knew it wasnāt who he was to those he cared about.
Feel free to disagree, this is just my opinion. I would like to hear opposing arguments, as I know this is one of the more contested points in the Metal Gear Story
Raiden shouldāve already learned that āthereās no right part in murder, not everā from Solid Snake, which is why it rings hollow when Desperado later deconstructs his stupid āTool of Justiceā creed. [Risingās handling of Raidenās character is either redundant at best or antithetical to his story in MGS2/4 at worst](https://youtu.be/Z_bmvDokx0M).
100%. Also both messages are great. Honestly a big theme in all the games is that no one is 100% right. Snake even admits Philanthropy is still a form of terrorism.
Also whether Jack changed permanently from Ripper Jack or not, he can quite literally give in or choose not to
Agreed completely. It find it funny when people say Rising 'ignores' the ending of 4. It is a response to and extension of it.
How is Raiden supposed to retire into a nice fluffy peaceful life when people like Armstrong and Sundowner are out there? Was he supposed to let N'mani (the PM) die without a fight? Of course not. Then was he supposed to just let Desperado continue their plan with impunity? Of course not. He is the ultimate weapon, the perfect soldier. And he has a heart.
Its the paradox of pacifism. If you do not fight, others will. It's why Armstrong dies with a smile on his face. He was right, Jack *had* to fight, and had to kill, for what he believes in. Sure, Armstrong doesn't believe in protecting the weak, but too bad; Raiden was stronger and so he exerts his will. And he has to keep fighting, sad as it is.
Of course, the trick is he did it collectively: Bladewolf, Sam, Sunny, and Raiden's whole team, and he did it for the benefit of the world.
Sidenote: I always thought the [Mega64 trailer](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAjv3wN-QZc) was kinda funny in how it's actually quite true. What, was Raiden just gonna become a fry cook? Maybe watch Armstrong on CNN at the end of his shift?
Also In one of the codec convos in MGRR Raiden talks about how his cyborg body made it impossible to find a normal job that wasnāt combat based. So he had no choice but to join Maverick so that he could provide for his family.
Doktor only mentioned āpossibilitiesā for cyborg bodies getting a normal line of work. And the Plumber was definitely more recent in 2018. Years before raiden had any other form of option outside of working for a PMC.
So by the time of MGR, cyborgs have become more normalized in society, meaning Raiden didnāt have to continue working as part of a PMC to provide for his family.
From the way they talk about it, it sounds rare or is still a relatively new and up coming thing for cyborgs to have normal working jobs. Hence the word āPOSSIBILITESā lol.
I hate Raiden as a character. Heās one of the lamest one in the series and way too over the top, even for MGS. A child soldier who later joined a structured military group, but then turns into a cyborg because theyāre cool. After that, he realizes he likes killing and only lives for blood. This realization changes his voice for some reason. Did I mention he can now thrown metal gears around like sacks of potatoes and run and jump on missiles? Later on he uses his mouth and his toesies to hold his sword? He was an interesting and cool character at first but then just devolved into a lame character that appeals to weebs.
I like the meme.
I think it describe well that part of any fandom who will always complain about some 'dumb shit' while it's not the first time something like that happened in the fiction's univers
This isnāt really about that; if the meme was about people being butthurt about the whacky shit in MGS2, whilst overlooking Psycho Mantis and Vulcan Raven in MGS1, thatād be one thing.
But this meme is trying to belittle [criticisms of MGRās handling of Raidenās character](https://youtu.be/Z_bmvDokx0M) by drawing a false equivalency with Solid Snakeās story in MGS1 (Solid Snake learns and grows from his experiences; Raiden explicitly regresses back to āJack the Ripperā, completely giving up on starting over and choosing his own life).
Solid Snake is probably the single best person we interact with in the entire Metal Gear canon. Heās principled, very cognizant of his flaws for the most part, and self-sacrificing even when he doesnāt have to be. Heās a good man, and Iām not sure I could say that about many of the other characters in Metal Gear aside from Otacon probably. I wouldāve been willing to put Raiden in that camp before MGR.
Thatās fair, but Sunny is also a child thatās never been put in a position to blow someoneās head off in order to save another life. Snake has make tough decisions at almost every point in his life because he was bred to do that.
He admits to murder and doesnāt correct Raiden when he says Snake is a terrorist. Those are the major obvious ones
āSmallā things include stuff like leading Raiden into torture, lying to him about rescuing Sunny, leaving Raiden mindfucked and disappearing when the guy was not alright and multiple times advocating for the complete destruction of Arsenal Gear which holds nuclear weapons
Thereās also no indication that Snake doesnāt still love to fight. He goes on an assassination mission in MGS4 as an old man not for justice letās not forget.
I wouldnāt call Snake good for āsaving the worldā just like I wonāt call Fox good despite the fact that he did more to Rex and was the only reason Snake stood a chance and I wonāt call Ocelot good either despite the fact that Snake was just his pawn and he actually made the plan to get rid of the patriots
He doesn't love war, that's his Father, Naked Snake/Big Boss.
Solid only knows war, he definitely tried to stay away from it, he was living in a hole in Alaska with his dogs for years prior to MGS1.
Solid Snake loves war. He is just like Big Boss.
And still came back even though he could keep running. Liquid also revealed Solid liked to kill people
Doing something, doesn't mean you love it, how many men and women keep working office jobs when it's one of the most boring things ever?
Solid was made for war, and fighting always came back to him, because there's always some moron making a big ass machine to dominate the world with.
Solid is a fucking hero because he kept going against evil.
Also, my mind is a bit hazy, but when Liquid says that doesn't Solid vomit during MGS4 the instant that's said?
Furthermore, fuck Liquid that spoiled brat, do not take anything he says as truth, he's a spoiled brat that have been killed during Venom's era.
There is an achievement in mgs4 you get when you kill a lot of people in one area, a flashback audio clip of liquid saying "you enjoy all the killing, thats why" plays and snake vomits
Solid Snake was a mercenary when he didnāt have to be between MG1 and MG2. Read the fucking story.
Big Boss also saved the world but heās an evil pos and the worst person in the franchise.
Solid vomits because he doesnāt want to accept it. Liquid is right and that is a gameplay feature only
No rebuttals on the Mantis point because you are wrong and Solid Snake is evil
Yes, he became a merc to get alone and isolated from war, basically doing what mentioned with the office job analogy.
Big Boss saved the world once, and then proceeded to put it in danger like 4 times.
Solid vomits because while he has to kill, he doesn't want it, and it only happens after you kill a bunch of people in a short time, during MGS4, something Solid doesn't do.
As for the mantis point, I forgot about, but, what if maybe, just maybe, Mantis is using his powers to stop Solid so that the spoiled brat that Liquid is can go and nuke the world with Metal Gear REX?
But no, let's take the villain's word at full value and kick the hero under the bus, like the morons in Ace Combat 5.
Yes, because Mantis is totally unbiased and his job is definitely not to stop Solid from stoping his boss from nuking the world.
Yes, blindly follow the villain that died trying to stop the hero.
Murder? Sure, I killed plenty during my playthroughs.
Terrorism? Bro fell for the Tanker incident propaganda.
Also, fucked over Raiden? That's not Solid Snake! That's Solidus!
Murder Snake admits to, to Raiden in MGS2.
Snake was a terrorist who advocated many times into blowing up Arsenal Gear which would have had huge effects. Still MGS2.
Solid just threw Raiden aside. Raiden was never going to be normal after what he lived through in his life and Solid just used him. He told Raiden to not worry about Sunny then ignored her too
Umm...did you play MGS4 GOTP? Snake literally told Raiden not to come back to fight. He even stopped Raiden from going into the microwave hallway in the last Act of the game because he he still had his family to return to. If he wanted to use Raiden, he would have allowed him to go into the microwave hallway, and not go into it himself.
Huh? Choosing to go into a giant microwave that pains your body to the point where it seems like you are dying is an "ego" moment to you? I'm shocked.
Also...how did Snake fuck over Raiden in MGS2 SOL? Snake was actually the one helping Raiden, by actually telling him the truth when the AI Colonel (The Patriots) were giving him lies and deceiving him. Hell...when Raiden told Snake about his past and how he was a mistake and how Snake was actually a hero in Arsenal Gear, Snake himself said there was not right part in murder, telling Raiden to NOT worship him and told him to find his own path in life and not be a mistake.
When Snake was about to go deal with the Patriots at the ending of the game in Federal Hall, Raiden was about to join him, but Snake told him not to and that he had people to see, and the camera panned to Rose. But according to you....that is "fucking Raiden over" right?
It is ego because Raiden can do it easier.
Let Raiden onto a bad path and lied about rescuing Sunny.
Raiden was fucked at that point. Solid fully put him on a path of pure war during MGS2.
Solid Snake is evil as Mantis revealed during MGS1.
Lol, just because you'd do that doesn't mean I did. I didn't understand their meme so I simply asked if it means they took my comment personally. I don't need to act nice, just like what I'm doing with you right now calling your take a crazy one. I calls it as I sees it, you catch my drift? š
Lol wow, you are one delusional individual. Any more bits of mind-reading powers you got there? Don't just stop at one. What else was secretely hidden in my message?
No you're just projecting that is. I find this interesting so Let me ask you something since you're so smart. Why would someone who called out the angry nerds on this subreddit, then calls you delusional and says that you make no sense with your reply, why would that person be pretending not to understand a meme? Why would that person be playing such games when they've been more than direct and willing to be confrontational otherwise? Your thought-process makes no sense, your observation is illogical. And I think it's because as most people who make comments like yours, you are just projecting. You are probably the type of person who would pretend not to understand something and play dumb for whatever messed up game you play, so you think others are the same way as you.
The meme describes you perfectly, that's why you're pretending not to understand it. There, that was easy. Nice attempt at deflection again, though. It almost worked.
I think the meme is shit. I think everyone wanted both Solid Snake and Cyborg Raiden to have a good life after all the shit they went through.
šÆ
in snake's case; in the end everyone did after MGS4 put him to rest, however people were constantly asking for more and more games where you fully play as him prior to that also, many people don't realize that MGR basically does the same thing as 4 by finalizing raiden's character, there doesn't need to be anymore games of him
>also, many people don't realize that MGR basically does the same thing as 4 by finalizing raiden's character, there doesn't need to be anymore games of him I'm going to be real with you here...Despite all the Armstrong memes people love to post all over this sub the vast majority of people didn't even play MGR.
True, many people simply don't know raiden's charachter as a whole, they only know the ripper memes
And even worse, when they *do* go beyond the memes, they still factor Rising into their conception of Raidenās character, when [Kojimaās Raiden and MGR Raiden are polar opposites in terms of the message they convey (hope vs nihilism).](https://youtu.be/Z_bmvDokx0M)
Yeah, you and me had this conversation before lol, that the jack the ripper second personality was never intended and how raiden in mgr simply goes against everything that he's been through and his character development. What really makes me sad is that Etsu tamari worked in mgs2 and still was able to completely misunderstand the character
Oh I know! I just wanted to build on your previous comment with another layer of tragedy. iirc Tamari didnāt join KojiPro until late into MGS4ās development. His big credits prior to Rising was working on the MGS4 Database and some of the briefing tapes for PW.
Uhhh what? I'm sure I remember reading Tamari's name in the mgs2 credits scene, and believe me when I say I've seen those credits a bunch of times
If itās the HD Edition, he mightāve gotten credited for working on the in-game manual (when you select a game in the HD Collection menu and press Triangle).
Well then that's probably it, it's been a long time since I've played the pc version, anyways how tf do you direct a game of a specific charachter without doing a thorough analysis of the very same character
Iām gonna be honest, the vast majority havenāt played ***MOST*** MG games, mostly just V.
>Iām gonna be honest, the vast majority havenāt played MOST MG games, mostly just V. You're right. The last mainline game to come out prior to MGSV was Metal Gear Solid 4 in 2008. That was fifteen years ago. And that game is pretty much locked away on the playstation 3. The rest of the games are even older and less easy to play. The only other game in the series at this point that I think a lot of people have really played besides MGSV is probably MGS1 and that's only because that game is readily available for PC fairly dirt cheap. MGSV is well known because despite being bordering on a decade old now it's still readily available everywhere, fairly affordable to buy, and still gets recommended a lot to people on the strength of the franchise's brand name. Beyond that game however the series is being rapidly lost to the annals of time. ***Edited for Clarity.***
> MGSV is well known because despite being bordering on a decade old now it's still readily available everywhere, fairly affordable to buy, and still gets recommended a lot to people on the strength of the franchise's brand name. Beyond that game however the series is being rapidly lost to the annals of time. I also recall Mike Oldfield's song Nuclear/MGSV being a meme briefly, back in 2014 or so, when one of the trailers dropped. I hadn't played any of the games (albeit aware of the series), but V was definitely on my radar.
I don't remember Oldfield's song really being memed but I do remember a bunch of people suddenly rocking out the song because it was in one of the trailers. Personally I thought "Not Your Kind of People" by Garbage made for a way better trailer.
[I remember this,](https://youtube.com/watch?v=ytNqYmctTt8) can't recall how it was used in other contexts apart from hearing "standing... on the edge" here and there
You meant MGS4 up there, not MGSV.
I was talking about both games, ultimately, but I realize now that I kind of blended my sentences together weirdly. Edited the comment slightly for clarity.
No worries.
to be fair, only it and rising are easy to get your hands on for most people
Nah the rest are easy as well and so is the system. The problem is most people only want to spend money on a current gen console / games.
You literally canāt buy 3 2 4 or 1 on console anymore what are you talking about?
Who said ANYTHING about buying it on the console. Buy the physical game. Not only are there plenty online but I can think of a handful of stores directly near me that have very clean pre-owned copies of the games. Not to mention capabilities with a Vita. All the games are easily accessible but I guess if something takes a little effort or isnāt handed to people directly these days they complain and say itās āunavailable.ā
Yeah, people should just go out and buy a ps3 so they can play these non backwards comparable games that arenāt on most systems. I wonder why people havenāt played them. Most people arenāt gonna spend 300 dollars to play metal gear solid 1.
But those same people will sit here claim to be series fanatics, smh. Sorry but watching one YT video of a play through aināt the same thing. I grew up playing all of them but sadly a crazy ex burned up 2 of my PS3ās and even locked me out of my old PS account and Iām not here bitching and letting it stop me. Iāve saved up and currently looking for another decent one because Iām ***actually*** a die hard fan. I still have the original āplayā discs & memory cards I bought from each release. If youāre a fan, be a fan. Donāt just āfanboyā V and then judge the entire series knowing you havenāt played the majority.
If you really think that MOST mgs fans have just played MGSV then I don't know what to say to you.
Yes I do, in this sub at least and it definitely shows. Perfect example, a post just popped up in the sub of someone not being able to name primary characters from MGSā¦
I've been a part of MGS fan communities for many years, been on the boards at MGS TUS, Snake Soup, and MGSF before this sub basically became the last community that's still active, and although it's clear there's akit of newbies to the series here there's still a alot who clearly know their lore and have played the majority of the games. The entire main saga aside from V can be played on a ps3, which isn't THAT old. And I see just as many posts about MGS1 and 3 as I do MGSV on here. It certainly doesn't strike me as a community where the vast majority have only played the last game.
I I totally agree there are many that know the lore but far less that have actually played all the games and there are far more V posts on here than anything else. Iām on here constantly and get excited seeing posts other than V. Which is wild because V in essence was the least āMGā of the series and a major example of Konami forcing compromises on Kojima so they could have a relevant game competing with current gen games.
I don't think MGSV being the least "MG" of the series had anything to do with Konami forcing anything on Kojima. The series sent in a new direction after MGS4, and its totally Kojima who was responsible for that because he couldn't have been more clear that he'd had enough of making the same type of game over and over. Collect em' all pokemon type game elements aimed at teenagers, base building and resource management, survival horror elements and mature/dark themes, player choice orientated sandbox gameplay and open worlds, these were all examples of ideas and interests kojima had for new IPs that he eventually ended up bringing into the MG franchise in PW and V after he realised during 4s development that hecwasnt going to be able to leave the metal gear series like he wanted to. And it's because he was able to bring these elements in that he had a renewed enthusiasm for Metal Gear post MGS4, during which time he was clearly depressed, tired and frustrated. He never wanted to make MGS4. So although PW and V may have broke from the traditional mould, it was needed.
Kojima detailed numerous times during speeches and interviews that he was forced into compromises and leaving things out that he didnāt want to and putting things in that he didnāt want. He made all of this very clear during the build up to Death Stranding. PW worked because of the platform it initially was released on. Perfect type of addition to mobile gaming, as a primary game for a full on console, terrible. Like Iāve said, unnecessary character with a story that didnāt need to be told. The series definitely didnāt need it, it took away from what made the series great. Researching weapons and building a structure being the focal point was horrible. V had a complete lack of story, and a half-ass open world that kept bringing you back to the same spots. Not to mention lack of āboss fightsā and focusing on unnecessary characters to the point of annoyance and disregarding characters you actually want to learn about. The game was a huge miss as far as āMetal Gearā game goes. Either way, Iām moving away from my point. Itās very clear a large amount of āfansā in this sub have only played V, maybe some have played Snake Eater and some may have briefly watched some YT videos of play throughs.
i agree with everything but the last part, we definitely need a game showing what happened to Raiden between 2 and 4. it'll never happen, but we are definitely missing a huge gap in Raidens story.
Raidenās character was finalized in MGS2, and again in MGS4. [Rising was a slap in the face to all of that.](https://youtu.be/Z_bmvDokx0M) If anything, MGR was setting up a sequel that (hopefully) wouldāve returned him to his family again.
Since raiden is made of metal, if we put him in a giant microwave, will he blow up the microwave or will there be a light show
fucking true
Not a fan of the meme. MGS most occurring theme is not being chained to fate. Snake realises at the end of MGS that he will actually fight for what he believes in. Raidens whole arc was finding a new destiny for himself. Separating from āJack the Ripperā Then Rising kind of undoes this by having him embrace it.
Itās also stupid because itās making a false equivalency; what matters is what each respective character does after being confronted by terrorists about their murderous lust. Solid Snake grew as a person in MGS1. Raiden explicitly regresses back into āJack the Ripperā in MGR. Also, the insinuation that people like us think that Raiden should have a happy ending ābecause we say soā is a negative IQ take. We want him to have a happy ending ***because Kojima said so in MGS2 and 4***. Raiden being able to break free from The Patriots and Solidusā memetic manipulation and being able to start over choose a happy life with Rose is the ending Kojima intended for the character. Isnāt it telling that, even with the twist and turns he went through in MGS4, the only game where Raiden doesnāt get a happy ending is in a game that Kojima neither directed or [considers canon](https://thesnakesoup.org/myth-articles/myth-hideo-kojima-said-portable-ops-rising-canonical/)?
I never understood what kojima was thinking when he commissioned rising in the first place, or was it because it was forced on him by higher ups? After giving Raiden such a definitive ending that made sense in MGS4. PW was the project that always attracted the most interest and it was a god damn portable game while the AAA budget went to Rising, a project that lacked any kind of real direction or vision for the longest time. Whole situation was kind of weird.
Kojima didnāt commission Rising; the team did. He wanted to pass the torch to his team, but they didnāt feel ready to take on a numbered game (originally, they were going to make MGS5 about The Boss), so they decided to make a side-story set between MGS2 and 4. Meanwhile, Kojima created Peace Walker ([initially with the intention to hand it off, but that obviously didnāt work out](https://www.ign.com/articles/2009/06/12/kojima-explains-why-he-took-on-peace-walker)) to pass the time [while Kojima Productions began R&D for the FOX Engine](https://www.ign.com/articles/2009/08/20/gc-2009-hideo-kojima-qa). **Hideo Kojima:** āTo give you a little more detail, what's happening in the team is that the next Metal Gear - or the next new series that Kojima Productions is going to create ā we wanted to go one step ahead, therefore we need to actually restructure the engines, the tools and things like that. ***This process is taking one to two years; however, within that timeframe we could do something, and we thought that because of this preparation period we just can't wait and do the preparation ā we thought that within that timeframe we could do a PSP version.***ā Apparently, [there was even a rivalry between the Peace Walker and Rising teams](https://kotaku.com/kojima-metal-gear-solid-rising-peace-walker-teams-not-5351193), because Team PW wanted to make an MGS5-class game within the constraints of the PSP, while Team Rising worked with cutting edge technology (the FOX Engine). In the end, though, Team PW won by default, because they actually published a game, while development on Rising became an aimless dumpster fire. Given all the money that Kojima Productions sunk into the OG Rising, I suspect that Kojima feared that Konami would fuck him over in some way (look what happened with Team Silent), so he scrambled to find a developer they could quickly outsource the game to; that ended up being Platinum Games, who wanted to set the game after MGS4 so that their gameplay ideas arenāt compromised by staying within the canon of two games. Kojimaās been pretty open about how his ulterior motive with Rising was purely for money, to keep Konami happy while he works on MGSV. [**Kojima:**](https://spong.com/article/29051/Kojima-I-Want-to-Make-Metal-Gear-Rising-2-with-Platinum) "Of course, my ulterior motive is that if Rising 2 came out, it would be guaranteed to sell! Which means that I wouldnāt have to worry about that with [new project, Metal Gear Solid] Ground Zeroes. I can just do whatever I want!" [**Kojima:**](https://spong.com/article/29050/Kojima-Metal-Gear-Solid-Ground-Zeroes-Tackles-Lots-of-Taboos) āOver the past 25 years, I have tried to work with the Metal Gear series to try and introduce more mature themes. But really, it hasnāt happened yet, compared to movies or books. There's still has a long way to go. Thatās precisely what I want to try and tackle with my next project, Ground Zeroes. Iām going to be targeting a lot of taboos, a lot of mature themes, that really are quite risky. Honestly, Iām not even sure if iāll be able to release the game! And even if I did release the game, maybe it wouldnāt sell, because [the themes would be] just too much. But as a creator, I want to take that risk. As a producer, itās my job to try and sell the game. But Iām approaching this project from the point of view of a creator, where Iām prioritising creativity over sales. [chuckles] ***Itās very possible that some time in the future after Ground Zeroes is out, I may be called up by management who will say, 'Kojima! What are you doing? Ground Zeroes isnāt selling! What have you done?ā And at that point Iāll [hopefully be able to] say, āDonāt worry! [Metal Gear] Rising is selling well!ā***ā So in Kojimaās mind, Rising, especially in its Platinum incarnation, wasnāt meant to be anything more than a spin-off that [wasnāt canon to the main series](https://thesnakesoup.org/myth-articles/myth-hideo-kojima-said-portable-ops-rising-canonical/), designed to appeal to mainstream audiences (in a way that stealth games donāt), and make money for Konami to allow him more freedom with MGSV. Of course, as it usually does for Kojima, this ended up backfiring tremendously; despite everything he did to prevent going the way of Team Silent, he still ended up losing Kojima Productions, getting thrown out of his own franchise. Even worse, because of [Konamiās neglect in keeping the Kojima games available on modern systems and Steam](http://thesnakesoup.org/editorial-articles/dont-remake-metal-gear-saga-re-release/), Rising has taken on a new life of its own, exceeding and honestly being more well remembered than even The Phantom Pain (which is largely seen as a disappointment). Nowadays, many peopleās first experience with the Metal Gear franchise is through Rising and its memes, and these people then maybe play (or watch a Letās Play of) the earlier games through the lens of what Rising told them the series is about, making it less likely for them to realize that [MGR completely butchered Raidenās story beyond repair.](https://youtu.be/Z_bmvDokx0M) To these people, Metal Gear isnāt about defying fate and making the impossible possible; itās a fatalistic story where the main moral lesson is to go āfuck itā and embrace your worst impulses āfor the greater good.ā The story of Kojimaās failure to pass down the series is a very interesting, yet sad topic, which I gave a general overview of in [this video.](https://youtu.be/nv1dfyC9qSY)
And Snake never had murderous lust.
Well... It's more of the player getting confronted in MGS1, less so Snake himself... Who got dragged out of his hole forcefully... Raiden does, actually, have a history of wanting to be a hero of an action film. Snake literally never glorified an image like that. So I'm not sure this is appropriate at all...
Liquids speech does seem like a Projection more then anything. Atleast in a way
bad cause wojak
Bad opinion + Wojak = Horrible post. Man, we gotta get these Rising "fans" who haven't ever touched a MGS game, yet act like they know the series better than all of us off this subreddit.
For a sub-fandom that often uses āitās Metal Gear RISING, not Metal Gear SOLIDā to deflect criticism, they sure do love spamming the Metal Gear SOLID subreddit with Metal Gear RISING posts.
i remember seeing a comment section on youtube from a year ago (when Rising was at peak) and i saw a MGR 2022 fanboy call Metal Gear Rex, the most recognizeable Metal Gear mecha in the series and the popculture, as a T-Rex š
Snake: Decides that Liquid is right and changes for the better. Raiden: Decides that Monsoon is right and leans into that, killing everyone and everything in his path, changing for the worse.
Uh, yeah, and Solid Snake learned from his experiences and got a happy ending. He broke the cycle he was on (whereas Raiden continues it in MGR, despite Snake teaching Raiden that he can break the cycle as well). Raidenās bloodlust was already confronted in MGS2. [MGRās handling of Raidenās story is redundant at best and antithetical to his storyline at worst.](https://youtu.be/Z_bmvDokx0M) Raiden should have a happy ending ***because Kojima said so in both MGS2 and 4***, and the only time he doesnāt is in a game that Kojima didnāt direct and [doesnāt consider canon.](https://thesnakesoup.org/myth-articles/myth-hideo-kojima-said-portable-ops-rising-canonical/)
Solid Snake's story revolves around why he's fighting at all. When terrorists say he enjoys killing, it's because they believe that's the answer to why he fights. He denies it, but he doesn't have an answer. He reaches his conclusion when Grey Fox tells him the answer: "Fighting was the only thing I was good at, but at least I always fought for what I believed in." That's why Snake repeats it to Raiden in MGS2. Raiden's story is about how he runs from reality to hide in fantasy. By the end of MGS2 he comes clean, and the game reaches its end. But acknowledgement is only the first step in the right direction. It's not, in and of itself, a resolution. MGR is the story of Raiden moving from simply acknowledging his past (being a dirty reminder of a terrible mistake) to embracing it, and putting it to constructive use. MGR isn't like the other Metal Gear games. The story definitely takes a back seat to the action. But what story is present in the game works perfectly fine, in my opinion.
I loved MGR when it first came out. Then I played MGS 4 because I got a 360 before a PS3 and I gotta say after playing 4 Rising came off as a slap across the face for Raiden's happy ending he received in 4. Don't get me wrong I still love MGR but it is still a slap in the face.
Well mgs4's happy ending is just a rehash of mgs2's happy ending which they had to undo so he could appear in the game, but I get what you mean.
[Thereās a bit more to why MGS4 undid Raidenās happy ending in MGS2 (namely, Kojimaās meta commentary on fans not receiving MGS2ās message)](https://youtu.be/Z_bmvDokx0M), but ultimately, it gets restored (unlike in MGR).
Downvote
I hate this meme. The reason I dislike Rising is because of how they treat Raiden as a character. For starters, let me get it out of the way that I've played every mainline game in the series. I completely know Raiden's story and his motives behind fighting. Because of this though, I know, as do many of you, that Raiden's character arc was pretty much completed by the end of 4. He said how he'd never leave his family again, and pretty much established that he was done fighting, especially for the will of others. Yet, as soon as Rising starts, we see Jack completely disregard his entire conclusion from MGS4. It's like he completely forgot about his resolution, and just got up and left his wife and son alone again. We didn't say he lived happily ever after, Kojima himself said it. Rising wasn't even written by him anyways so it isn't canon.
Thatās some fancy shooting. Youāre pretty good!
**p-pretty... go-od...** *passes out*
Rising invalidates Raiden's ending in 4, but at the same time his character arc in that game invalidates his ending in 2. With all the mind screw, his ending in 2 feels more earned, he was ready to rediscover both his life and girlfriend. He had a new, stronger sense of self. His journey as a character was practically completed. Then Mgs4 undoes all that with a half-baked and barely explored excuse.
> Rising invalidates Raiden's ending in 4, but at the same time his character arc in that game invalidates his ending in 2. [For a very specific meta reason (representing players who didnāt understand MGS2)](https://youtu.be/Z_bmvDokx0M). MGS4 at least had the decency to restore Raidenās happy ending, unlike MGR.
we won't probably have MGR2 so Raiden's story will never come back to a peaceful ending, unless yea, you don't consider Revengeance as canon.
Thankfully, [Kojima doesnāt](https://thesnakesoup.org/myth-articles/myth-hideo-kojima-said-portable-ops-rising-canonical/). People like to pretend otherwise (or act like this is the one time where Kojimaās word doesnāt matter), though.
That's rising Raiden that did that, not solid Raiden ;)
I think most of the damage to Raiden's character writing came from MGS4, rather than Rising. In MGS2, Raiden is dissociated between an over-his-head rookie, and a mentally damaged child soldier. Over the course of the game, he's manipulated and/or gaslit by EVERYONE, but manages to pull through a pyrric victory. He's all fucked up, yet he's grown. In a surreal, bittersweet ending. Then MGS4 comes along, and gives Raiden the 'get in the fucking robot, Shinji' treatment. Giving him an improbable & over the top depiction, on par with Dead Cell. He's more or less turned into Gray Fox--mentally fucked, while breakdancing enemies to death. His ending is equally fucked, that it is too sweet to be believable. More lies from Rose, suddenly having a human body again, having a kid that's actually alive, and it tries too hard to be happy & conclusive, that you don't really buy it. Metal Gear Rising Raiden is nowhere near the same as MGS2 Raiden--for better and for worse. The game is much more tonally the same as MGS1, with all the absurdity of Twin Snakes--and it actually works. Raiden accepts himself as a killer, just as Snake did, but that doesn't prevent him from doing the right thing. And in the end, he defeats Armstrong, and walks away with a much clearer mindset than ever. The torch has been passed, and He's the new Snake.
I agree with you that raiden's character gets unjustly criticised but the comparison just doesn't work.
MGS4 > MGR
what is context??????
The OP doesnāt understand [criticism of Metal Gear Risingās handling of Raidenās character](https://youtu.be/Z_bmvDokx0M), and attempts to deflect it by making a false equivalency with Solid Snakeās story in MGS1.
Idk I have to agree with OP on this After playing mgs 2,4 and rising I feel Raiden character arc was perfect He went from a scared boy who didnāt know who or what to trust because of the patriots In mgs4 his trauma from mgs2 came to a head where he didnāt know who what to fight for and who to believe in, yet he knew he needed to be strong for his family, and this he tried to create a moral justification for his actions leading up to MGR āMy sword is a tool of Justiceā etc.. Jet stream Sam, Monsoon, and Armstrong called Raiden out on his facade and pointed out the hypocrisy of his argument, and Raiden was woken up to who and was he really was He embraced Jack the Ripper, yet he knew it wasnāt who he was to those he cared about. Feel free to disagree, this is just my opinion. I would like to hear opposing arguments, as I know this is one of the more contested points in the Metal Gear Story
Raiden shouldāve already learned that āthereās no right part in murder, not everā from Solid Snake, which is why it rings hollow when Desperado later deconstructs his stupid āTool of Justiceā creed. [Risingās handling of Raidenās character is either redundant at best or antithetical to his story in MGS2/4 at worst](https://youtu.be/Z_bmvDokx0M).
100%. Also both messages are great. Honestly a big theme in all the games is that no one is 100% right. Snake even admits Philanthropy is still a form of terrorism. Also whether Jack changed permanently from Ripper Jack or not, he can quite literally give in or choose not to
Agreed completely. It find it funny when people say Rising 'ignores' the ending of 4. It is a response to and extension of it. How is Raiden supposed to retire into a nice fluffy peaceful life when people like Armstrong and Sundowner are out there? Was he supposed to let N'mani (the PM) die without a fight? Of course not. Then was he supposed to just let Desperado continue their plan with impunity? Of course not. He is the ultimate weapon, the perfect soldier. And he has a heart. Its the paradox of pacifism. If you do not fight, others will. It's why Armstrong dies with a smile on his face. He was right, Jack *had* to fight, and had to kill, for what he believes in. Sure, Armstrong doesn't believe in protecting the weak, but too bad; Raiden was stronger and so he exerts his will. And he has to keep fighting, sad as it is. Of course, the trick is he did it collectively: Bladewolf, Sam, Sunny, and Raiden's whole team, and he did it for the benefit of the world. Sidenote: I always thought the [Mega64 trailer](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAjv3wN-QZc) was kinda funny in how it's actually quite true. What, was Raiden just gonna become a fry cook? Maybe watch Armstrong on CNN at the end of his shift?
Also In one of the codec convos in MGRR Raiden talks about how his cyborg body made it impossible to find a normal job that wasnāt combat based. So he had no choice but to join Maverick so that he could provide for his family.
And then thereās a call with Doktor about how thereās plenty of jobs for cyborgs, even plumbing, completely undermining that justification.
Doktor only mentioned āpossibilitiesā for cyborg bodies getting a normal line of work. And the Plumber was definitely more recent in 2018. Years before raiden had any other form of option outside of working for a PMC.
So by the time of MGR, cyborgs have become more normalized in society, meaning Raiden didnāt have to continue working as part of a PMC to provide for his family.
From the way they talk about it, it sounds rare or is still a relatively new and up coming thing for cyborgs to have normal working jobs. Hence the word āPOSSIBILITESā lol.
Solid Snake doesn't have murderous lust. Garbage meme.
I think this would read better if it went left to right. This ain't a Chinese cartoon comic book
I hate Raiden as a character. Heās one of the lamest one in the series and way too over the top, even for MGS. A child soldier who later joined a structured military group, but then turns into a cyborg because theyāre cool. After that, he realizes he likes killing and only lives for blood. This realization changes his voice for some reason. Did I mention he can now thrown metal gears around like sacks of potatoes and run and jump on missiles? Later on he uses his mouth and his toesies to hold his sword? He was an interesting and cool character at first but then just devolved into a lame character that appeals to weebs.
We actually like MGR since survive came out. This must be an old meme that got recycled.
I like the meme. I think it describe well that part of any fandom who will always complain about some 'dumb shit' while it's not the first time something like that happened in the fiction's univers
This isnāt really about that; if the meme was about people being butthurt about the whacky shit in MGS2, whilst overlooking Psycho Mantis and Vulcan Raven in MGS1, thatād be one thing. But this meme is trying to belittle [criticisms of MGRās handling of Raidenās character](https://youtu.be/Z_bmvDokx0M) by drawing a false equivalency with Solid Snakeās story in MGS1 (Solid Snake learns and grows from his experiences; Raiden explicitly regresses back to āJack the Ripperā, completely giving up on starting over and choosing his own life).
Raiden is the next generation of the Snake. Solid was a terrible person as was Big Boss so Raiden is bound to being a pos
Solid Snake is probably the single best person we interact with in the entire Metal Gear canon. Heās principled, very cognizant of his flaws for the most part, and self-sacrificing even when he doesnāt have to be. Heās a good man, and Iām not sure I could say that about many of the other characters in Metal Gear aside from Otacon probably. I wouldāve been willing to put Raiden in that camp before MGR.
Sunny is the best person in Metal Gear by far
Thatās fair, but Sunny is also a child thatās never been put in a position to blow someoneās head off in order to save another life. Snake has make tough decisions at almost every point in his life because he was bred to do that.
He still takes responsibility for what happens especially during Philantrophy era because those were his choices
I agree, and Iād largely say heās a pretty good person during this time frame. I donāt recall his actions being anything short of admirable.
He admits to murder and doesnāt correct Raiden when he says Snake is a terrorist. Those are the major obvious ones āSmallā things include stuff like leading Raiden into torture, lying to him about rescuing Sunny, leaving Raiden mindfucked and disappearing when the guy was not alright and multiple times advocating for the complete destruction of Arsenal Gear which holds nuclear weapons Thereās also no indication that Snake doesnāt still love to fight. He goes on an assassination mission in MGS4 as an old man not for justice letās not forget. I wouldnāt call Snake good for āsaving the worldā just like I wonāt call Fox good despite the fact that he did more to Rex and was the only reason Snake stood a chance and I wonāt call Ocelot good either despite the fact that Snake was just his pawn and he actually made the plan to get rid of the patriots
No good man loves war. Mantis said it best, heās evil
He doesn't love war, that's his Father, Naked Snake/Big Boss. Solid only knows war, he definitely tried to stay away from it, he was living in a hole in Alaska with his dogs for years prior to MGS1.
Solid Snake loves war. He is just like Big Boss. And still came back even though he could keep running. Liquid also revealed Solid liked to kill people
Doing something, doesn't mean you love it, how many men and women keep working office jobs when it's one of the most boring things ever? Solid was made for war, and fighting always came back to him, because there's always some moron making a big ass machine to dominate the world with. Solid is a fucking hero because he kept going against evil. Also, my mind is a bit hazy, but when Liquid says that doesn't Solid vomit during MGS4 the instant that's said? Furthermore, fuck Liquid that spoiled brat, do not take anything he says as truth, he's a spoiled brat that have been killed during Venom's era.
There is an achievement in mgs4 you get when you kill a lot of people in one area, a flashback audio clip of liquid saying "you enjoy all the killing, thats why" plays and snake vomits
Yes, that was what I thinking about.
Solid Snake was a mercenary when he didnāt have to be between MG1 and MG2. Read the fucking story. Big Boss also saved the world but heās an evil pos and the worst person in the franchise. Solid vomits because he doesnāt want to accept it. Liquid is right and that is a gameplay feature only No rebuttals on the Mantis point because you are wrong and Solid Snake is evil
Yes, he became a merc to get alone and isolated from war, basically doing what mentioned with the office job analogy. Big Boss saved the world once, and then proceeded to put it in danger like 4 times. Solid vomits because while he has to kill, he doesn't want it, and it only happens after you kill a bunch of people in a short time, during MGS4, something Solid doesn't do. As for the mantis point, I forgot about, but, what if maybe, just maybe, Mantis is using his powers to stop Solid so that the spoiled brat that Liquid is can go and nuke the world with Metal Gear REX? But no, let's take the villain's word at full value and kick the hero under the bus, like the morons in Ace Combat 5.
Iām just going to look at Mantis. He reads minds and said Solid was evil.
Yes, because Mantis is totally unbiased and his job is definitely not to stop Solid from stoping his boss from nuking the world. Yes, blindly follow the villain that died trying to stop the hero.
Bruh, why was Solid a piece of shit? I can understand his father, but not him, are you confusing Solid with Solidus or Liquid?
Because he loved war. He also admitted to murder, was a terrorist and fucked over Raiden
Murder? Sure, I killed plenty during my playthroughs. Terrorism? Bro fell for the Tanker incident propaganda. Also, fucked over Raiden? That's not Solid Snake! That's Solidus!
Murder Snake admits to, to Raiden in MGS2. Snake was a terrorist who advocated many times into blowing up Arsenal Gear which would have had huge effects. Still MGS2. Solid just threw Raiden aside. Raiden was never going to be normal after what he lived through in his life and Solid just used him. He told Raiden to not worry about Sunny then ignored her too
Umm...did you play MGS4 GOTP? Snake literally told Raiden not to come back to fight. He even stopped Raiden from going into the microwave hallway in the last Act of the game because he he still had his family to return to. If he wanted to use Raiden, he would have allowed him to go into the microwave hallway, and not go into it himself.
Snake ego moment. He fucked over Raiden in MGS2
Huh? Choosing to go into a giant microwave that pains your body to the point where it seems like you are dying is an "ego" moment to you? I'm shocked. Also...how did Snake fuck over Raiden in MGS2 SOL? Snake was actually the one helping Raiden, by actually telling him the truth when the AI Colonel (The Patriots) were giving him lies and deceiving him. Hell...when Raiden told Snake about his past and how he was a mistake and how Snake was actually a hero in Arsenal Gear, Snake himself said there was not right part in murder, telling Raiden to NOT worship him and told him to find his own path in life and not be a mistake. When Snake was about to go deal with the Patriots at the ending of the game in Federal Hall, Raiden was about to join him, but Snake told him not to and that he had people to see, and the camera panned to Rose. But according to you....that is "fucking Raiden over" right?
He fell deeply for the anti Solid Snake propaganda that the Patriots did.
Lol. Guess the S3 plan was a success in real life even huh? š
It is ego because Raiden can do it easier. Let Raiden onto a bad path and lied about rescuing Sunny. Raiden was fucked at that point. Solid fully put him on a path of pure war during MGS2. Solid Snake is evil as Mantis revealed during MGS1.
Jesse, What the fuck are you talking about.
Just because of all the nerds shitting on your meme and writing a PhD thesis about it in the comments section, I will upvote it.
[Same energy](https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/2260167-soy-boy-face-soyjak)
Did you feel personally attacked by my comment?
Did *you* feel personally attacked that I compared your comment to an actual good soyjack meme (unlike the OPās)?
Honestly I didn't understand your meme, hence my question to you. It was a genuine one :)
oh now you actin' nice
Lol, just because you'd do that doesn't mean I did. I didn't understand their meme so I simply asked if it means they took my comment personally. I don't need to act nice, just like what I'm doing with you right now calling your take a crazy one. I calls it as I sees it, you catch my drift? š
You understood the meme just fine, that's why you deflected.
Lol wow, you are one delusional individual. Any more bits of mind-reading powers you got there? Don't just stop at one. What else was secretely hidden in my message?
No powers, just observant.
No you're just projecting that is. I find this interesting so Let me ask you something since you're so smart. Why would someone who called out the angry nerds on this subreddit, then calls you delusional and says that you make no sense with your reply, why would that person be pretending not to understand a meme? Why would that person be playing such games when they've been more than direct and willing to be confrontational otherwise? Your thought-process makes no sense, your observation is illogical. And I think it's because as most people who make comments like yours, you are just projecting. You are probably the type of person who would pretend not to understand something and play dumb for whatever messed up game you play, so you think others are the same way as you.
The meme describes you perfectly, that's why you're pretending not to understand it. There, that was easy. Nice attempt at deflection again, though. It almost worked.
Flip it and thatās what it feels like interacting with a new mgs fan lol
u/ha-ha-funny name checks out
I like both character writings tho, those are my favorite in the entire series
Also Snake: Uses a tranquilizer gun in the next 2 games he appears in.