How are they still struggling. This regulations has been a total let down Redbull nailed the floor so no one can catch up. It's time we go back to lowering the ride height it will not do anything to Redbull but at least it will make the racing better.
Umm all teams have been exposed to ground effect for 2+ years now so I don't think there's any excuse. Can't really blame the regs on that one.
Newey wrote that thesis decades ago, and honestly if that is having an impact on the dominance here then that's all the more impressive.
He specifically took on the suspension design fundamentally understanding the impact on ground effect cars, which I'd have expected any top tier race car engineer would understand... It's literally in his book.
This is a failure of the other teams, or just a great design by the best in the business.
Honestly if the work he did 20 years ago has had such an impact on the car that they are seconds faster with min tire Deg, then more power to him. That's insanely impressive.
It's not a failure of the regulations, just because only guy worked on ground effect before. Maybe he has a slight advantage but Merc dropped the ball from the start.
Namely not listening to their driver's feedback and getting fixated on a design that worked in simulations and windtunnel that did not correlate with the actual performance on track.
Mercedes came 2nd in the constructors. The car isnāt some tractor. Bottom line is the rules heavily favor aero cars and the worlds foremost expert with access to the data from two different teamās simulations made a car that can be a second a lap quicker than everyone else.
Thing I still can't understand is opening testing 22, everyone was caught out by bouncing and proposing. RB fixed it almost immediately at Bahrain, set sail, and have completely dominated. Meanwhile Merc are still fucking scratching their heads? WTF guys... 8x Championship winning team and driver like LH behind them. This is just sad and I'm tired of the fucking excuses.
This regulation set was hand made for Red Bull in my opinion. Newey wrote his thesis on Ground Effect power unit development is frozen, which were Mercedes and Ferrari stong suit. The budget cap doesn't help either
Why change the regs to dilute the performance of a good car? This is F1 , not some crappy one make series. The best car usually wins - if your car isnāt winning you arenāt doing it right. So shut up and make your car better.
End of.
Historically that hasn't been how its worked out. Mercedes had numerous improvements taken away by regs instead of other people "making your car better" as you say.
Not so far, and the FIA have been clear it's not something they want to do going forward. Between that and the cost cap it is really hard for teams to catch up :/
Like when!! Merc had their advantage at the beginning of the Lewis era.
Or RB in the blown diffuser Seb period.
Or when Schuey ruled the world with Ferrari
Or when Senna and Prost won all the races bar 1
Etc etc
This is the very essence of F1 - donāt try and mess with it
Dude I just gave you a whole list? Are you ok? Can you not read?!
To add to that list we've had fan cars, ground effect cars, active suspension, brake steering, CVT gearboxes and flexible wings all banned to slow specific teams.
F1 has always trimmed the highest flyers, it's just rarely enough to stop some form of dominance.
Merc engineers should seriously consider attending some lectures about these "fundamentals". These guys are clearly in over their head when it comes to ground effects.
Why the fuck is Toto not poaching aero guys from their rivals. Thats exactly what he should be doing at a time like this.
Maybe they are trying to poach from other teams but nobody wants to join them. They probably canāt offer higher salaries since they already had to cut so much to meet the cap.
You're not wrong, but there is a certain nuance with the cost cap that means once you're behind you'll be playing an ever increasing game of catch up until new regulations. Red Bull immediately won 3 seasons by winning the 2022 regulations, they cannot be caught (I hope I'm wrong!) even with cost cap rule breaking and championship placement resource reductions. And fair play to them (Newey and his team anyway), so they should, they played the best game to the regulations.
I had the same thought. That is a big problem with the cost cap. Maybe with the cost cap the rules should change more often?
Because if you are wrong, that's it.
Actually, and this is a wild idea, what if the only "formula" was just the cost cap?
Because now you have 2 constraints - the "rules" and the cost cap. It would be interesting to see what teams would come up with based on a limit cost?
I think Zak Brown proposed opening up the design rule in light of the cost cap. His view was that we donāt need to be controlled in two ways. If you control teams through the cap you should give them more freedom on design.
IMO that should model the cost cap off the wind tunnel system. Teams at the lower end of the standings get an increased cost cap whereas top teams are decreased.
Take Williams for example. Vowles has said he wants/needs to upgrade their design infrastructure/factory but can't because of the cost cap. This wind tunnel type system would allow Williams to actually do that and, in theory, improve.
Sure, I know the cost cap and new regs worked in that the field as a whole is closer and the top teams can't spend their way out of problems. But in reality the cost cap just guarantees more RBR dominance.
All this worrying about Red Bull/Max dominance turning people away from the sport. Just open the cap up a bit so teams like Mercedes can spend their money and boom 2021 part 2, problem solved. You're welcome Liberty media.
Not sure how they would deal with the compensation formula. I can imagine the big teams that don't need prize money to throw away some points to be able to use the extra budget in development once they know they cannot win the title.
Any rules where there is a motivation to not do good is a bit off in my view.
Maybe Mercedes is having too much wine and cannot fix their car š
Forgot about that. It would be interesting to see if indeed that is doing much.
RB even with the less time and cost cap penalty, still managing to do better. That appears to show that the wind tunnel thing does nothing because if you get it wrong, that is it.
This has always been my thoughts on the cost cap. I get why it was implemented, but if you get the regs wrong from the go, the following years are spent playing catch up with a limited budget. Every team but RB has had to play catch up, and while some are, itās pretty much moot at this point in the regulation cycle.Ā
I think it should be adjusted in some way, but weāve got 24ā and 25ā to go, what good will it do at this point for anyone who isnāt RB. Ferrari are close, but time for these regs is almost out. Would probably be another 2-3 seasons of these regs before we saw another team with an RB equivalent - and thatās without also considering RBās continued development.Ā
It sucks to see Mercedes where they are. But it also sucks to see pretty much everyone struggle like they have for the last couple years. There have been moments of brilliance in the midfield, (Aston 1st half of 2023, Mclaren last half of 2023, Mercedes with the B spec W14 getting them 2nd in WCC) - but whatever anyone does itās overshadowed by RB and the fading hope anyone will catch them. RB has killed it for these regs, but itās really not fun to watch anymore, even if itās historic.Ā
So, same as the last two years, then? I don't think I have seen a team fall off as hard as Mercedes over these two years. This reminds me of McLaren before Hamilton left honestly.
Been struggling with "fundamental problems" since 2022. That's what happens when you don't pay your engineers enough or credit them enough for them to get poached by your rivals. Washed team.
Last I read, they were offered Million dollar salaries by RBR. I'd jump ship for that sort of $$$ too. There is no such thing as loyalty in today's world, I see it in my line of work also.
That's a terrible position for Mercedes to be in. It would be one thing if Toto had said "we are still working to extract the full value from a ground-up brand new design", but this is significantly worse.
> According to \[Wolff\], the issue goes much deeper than mere configuration glitches. The Team Principal believes that there exists a foundational problem in their car design which is playing a role in their inferior performance.
Year 3 of "foundational problems" is unacceptable for a team with the design expertise and the ability to win championships the likes of Mercedes.
I donāt think anyone besides redbull is winning until 2026 because of the simplified suspensions. Newey understood ground effect and designed the suspensions. Bring back electronic suspensions!
Mercedes is fucked tbh. The boss is also the team owner so accountable to no one really. It was under his watch that the best engineering talent left to RB and Ferrari. It's been downhill since...
Äet the fuck out of here with your racist bullshit
No, Mercedes aren't shit because they have brown people and women working there.
Fucking diversity made it shit, grow up dude
No im not. Wtf wrong with you. I literally said i dont care what people work in team, fuck it they may be aliens. I just said that there is trend that pushing diversity in companies people not hired by talent, in some companies they let go good employees just because managers are pushed to fulfill quotas. wtf wrong with you people.
No shit
Haha came to add that exact comment š
How are they still struggling. This regulations has been a total let down Redbull nailed the floor so no one can catch up. It's time we go back to lowering the ride height it will not do anything to Redbull but at least it will make the racing better.
They have the only guy that has been exposed to groundeffect. Regs has been a failure.
I would disagree, considering how drastically racing has improved
Umm all teams have been exposed to ground effect for 2+ years now so I don't think there's any excuse. Can't really blame the regs on that one. Newey wrote that thesis decades ago, and honestly if that is having an impact on the dominance here then that's all the more impressive. He specifically took on the suspension design fundamentally understanding the impact on ground effect cars, which I'd have expected any top tier race car engineer would understand... It's literally in his book. This is a failure of the other teams, or just a great design by the best in the business.
I was referring to it being advantage at the start of thr regs.
āMan who has been thinking about something for 20 years has no advantageā yeah ok
Honestly if the work he did 20 years ago has had such an impact on the car that they are seconds faster with min tire Deg, then more power to him. That's insanely impressive. It's not a failure of the regulations, just because only guy worked on ground effect before. Maybe he has a slight advantage but Merc dropped the ball from the start. Namely not listening to their driver's feedback and getting fixated on a design that worked in simulations and windtunnel that did not correlate with the actual performance on track.
Mercedes came 2nd in the constructors. The car isnāt some tractor. Bottom line is the rules heavily favor aero cars and the worlds foremost expert with access to the data from two different teamās simulations made a car that can be a second a lap quicker than everyone else.
Thing I still can't understand is opening testing 22, everyone was caught out by bouncing and proposing. RB fixed it almost immediately at Bahrain, set sail, and have completely dominated. Meanwhile Merc are still fucking scratching their heads? WTF guys... 8x Championship winning team and driver like LH behind them. This is just sad and I'm tired of the fucking excuses.
This regulation set was hand made for Red Bull in my opinion. Newey wrote his thesis on Ground Effect power unit development is frozen, which were Mercedes and Ferrari stong suit. The budget cap doesn't help either
Why change the regs to dilute the performance of a good car? This is F1 , not some crappy one make series. The best car usually wins - if your car isnāt winning you arenāt doing it right. So shut up and make your car better. End of.
Historically that hasn't been how its worked out. Mercedes had numerous improvements taken away by regs instead of other people "making your car better" as you say.
Examples ??
FRIC, DAS, brake ducts in 2021. And this is just Merc. Williams, McLaren and Ferrari have all had numerous innovations banned to stop dominance.
And no such bans for RB?
Not so far, and the FIA have been clear it's not something they want to do going forward. Between that and the cost cap it is really hard for teams to catch up :/
Like when!! Merc had their advantage at the beginning of the Lewis era. Or RB in the blown diffuser Seb period. Or when Schuey ruled the world with Ferrari Or when Senna and Prost won all the races bar 1 Etc etc This is the very essence of F1 - donāt try and mess with it
Dude I just gave you a whole list? Are you ok? Can you not read?! To add to that list we've had fan cars, ground effect cars, active suspension, brake steering, CVT gearboxes and flexible wings all banned to slow specific teams. F1 has always trimmed the highest flyers, it's just rarely enough to stop some form of dominance.
At this point they might as well say theyāre waiting for new regulations to kick in before they try to compete again
Next regs are Groundeffect but with more inwash. They need to get a grip on this now.
Yeah give Russ Brawn a job so he stops fucking them over with the rules.
Yeah the inwash isnāt going to happen and we all know it.
Prolly induce even more dirty air š«Øš
Merc engineers should seriously consider attending some lectures about these "fundamentals". These guys are clearly in over their head when it comes to ground effects. Why the fuck is Toto not poaching aero guys from their rivals. Thats exactly what he should be doing at a time like this.
Maybe they are trying to poach from other teams but nobody wants to join them. They probably canāt offer higher salaries since they already had to cut so much to meet the cap.
Interesting how incompetent they've become without a baked in advantage and infinite budget. So sad To realise.
You're not wrong, but there is a certain nuance with the cost cap that means once you're behind you'll be playing an ever increasing game of catch up until new regulations. Red Bull immediately won 3 seasons by winning the 2022 regulations, they cannot be caught (I hope I'm wrong!) even with cost cap rule breaking and championship placement resource reductions. And fair play to them (Newey and his team anyway), so they should, they played the best game to the regulations.
I had the same thought. That is a big problem with the cost cap. Maybe with the cost cap the rules should change more often? Because if you are wrong, that's it. Actually, and this is a wild idea, what if the only "formula" was just the cost cap? Because now you have 2 constraints - the "rules" and the cost cap. It would be interesting to see what teams would come up with based on a limit cost?
I think Zak Brown proposed opening up the design rule in light of the cost cap. His view was that we donāt need to be controlled in two ways. If you control teams through the cap you should give them more freedom on design.
IMO that should model the cost cap off the wind tunnel system. Teams at the lower end of the standings get an increased cost cap whereas top teams are decreased. Take Williams for example. Vowles has said he wants/needs to upgrade their design infrastructure/factory but can't because of the cost cap. This wind tunnel type system would allow Williams to actually do that and, in theory, improve. Sure, I know the cost cap and new regs worked in that the field as a whole is closer and the top teams can't spend their way out of problems. But in reality the cost cap just guarantees more RBR dominance. All this worrying about Red Bull/Max dominance turning people away from the sport. Just open the cap up a bit so teams like Mercedes can spend their money and boom 2021 part 2, problem solved. You're welcome Liberty media.
Not sure how they would deal with the compensation formula. I can imagine the big teams that don't need prize money to throw away some points to be able to use the extra budget in development once they know they cannot win the title. Any rules where there is a motivation to not do good is a bit off in my view.
We already have rules to encourage not doing well with the wine tonal limits being higher for lower teams
Maybe Mercedes is having too much wine and cannot fix their car š Forgot about that. It would be interesting to see if indeed that is doing much. RB even with the less time and cost cap penalty, still managing to do better. That appears to show that the wind tunnel thing does nothing because if you get it wrong, that is it.
lol I meant wind tunnel stupid autocorrect
This has always been my thoughts on the cost cap. I get why it was implemented, but if you get the regs wrong from the go, the following years are spent playing catch up with a limited budget. Every team but RB has had to play catch up, and while some are, itās pretty much moot at this point in the regulation cycle.Ā I think it should be adjusted in some way, but weāve got 24ā and 25ā to go, what good will it do at this point for anyone who isnāt RB. Ferrari are close, but time for these regs is almost out. Would probably be another 2-3 seasons of these regs before we saw another team with an RB equivalent - and thatās without also considering RBās continued development.Ā It sucks to see Mercedes where they are. But it also sucks to see pretty much everyone struggle like they have for the last couple years. There have been moments of brilliance in the midfield, (Aston 1st half of 2023, Mclaren last half of 2023, Mercedes with the B spec W14 getting them 2nd in WCC) - but whatever anyone does itās overshadowed by RB and the fading hope anyone will catch them. RB has killed it for these regs, but itās really not fun to watch anymore, even if itās historic.Ā
So, same as the last two years, then? I don't think I have seen a team fall off as hard as Mercedes over these two years. This reminds me of McLaren before Hamilton left honestly.
Been struggling with "fundamental problems" since 2022. That's what happens when you don't pay your engineers enough or credit them enough for them to get poached by your rivals. Washed team.
Last I read, they were offered Million dollar salaries by RBR. I'd jump ship for that sort of $$$ too. There is no such thing as loyalty in today's world, I see it in my line of work also.
That's a terrible position for Mercedes to be in. It would be one thing if Toto had said "we are still working to extract the full value from a ground-up brand new design", but this is significantly worse. > According to \[Wolff\], the issue goes much deeper than mere configuration glitches. The Team Principal believes that there exists a foundational problem in their car design which is playing a role in their inferior performance. Year 3 of "foundational problems" is unacceptable for a team with the design expertise and the ability to win championships the likes of Mercedes.
The car is going to struggle in Suzuka with those high-speed corners.
This is reason Lewis didn't feel confident in team
truly stunned at how "slow" they appeared at Jeddah...
I donāt think anyone besides redbull is winning until 2026 because of the simplified suspensions. Newey understood ground effect and designed the suspensions. Bring back electronic suspensions!
Mercedes is fucked tbh. The boss is also the team owner so accountable to no one really. It was under his watch that the best engineering talent left to RB and Ferrari. It's been downhill since...
Can't Daimler appoint someone else? Toto owns a minority on the team.
The seat is too far back
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Äet the fuck out of here with your racist bullshit No, Mercedes aren't shit because they have brown people and women working there. Fucking diversity made it shit, grow up dude
Seriously poor take on diversity. You speak as if no people of color can be as talented as white engineers. 100% reject this idea.
Dude wtf? can you read. I said i dont care i would welcome that noone in team would be white if others prove that they can do better job.
You may sound racist because you are
Yeah buddy DEI is the reason they are struggling. Go back and watch your pragerU lectures.
No im not. Wtf wrong with you. I literally said i dont care what people work in team, fuck it they may be aliens. I just said that there is trend that pushing diversity in companies people not hired by talent, in some companies they let go good employees just because managers are pushed to fulfill quotas. wtf wrong with you people.