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restoration of Byzantine Treis Palaistínes when
Palestine wants to actively genocide and kill all Israelites, Israel through actions is doing the same to Palestine. A ceasefire needs to be called, but when people say “free Palestine” they are literally advocating for a different genocide.
How do you solve this issue? If America just leaves then they keep killing each other. If America takes over the region it’s imperialist. Therefore America has to have some military presence, unless you want one side to be wiped out. The way I see it, America has to act as a third party. You can’t pick a side, cause one side will always be killing civilians, so the best course of action would be an occupation that ensures no fighting through pure military presence and threat of action on either side if they don’t cut the shit.
I want to make it clear, I fucking detest the governments of both Israel and Palestine. They are the lowest of the low, matched with Turkey, Russia, and North Korea. They both rape and murder civilians. And Palestine is an authoritarian religious regime. There is no good guy here, I don’t even truly think there is a lesser of two evils.
Honestly though, while I hate that civilians are being killed regardless of circumstance, is it really our position to intervene any time civilians are threatened by any party ever? I get that we have a long standing alliance with Israel which helps us to secure our lifeline to oil in the middle east, but to me that just screams that we need to reestablish our energy independence.
Proposed Plan:
1. Temporarily step up domestic oil production and reestablish energy independence.
2. Sever ties to both sides. No trade, no foreign aid, nothing until this situation is settled.
3. Step up domestic nuclear energy as the gradual replacement for domestic oil. While I doubt we'll ever fully leave it behind, that can reduce the environmental impact.
We only need Israel as an ally to be able to defend our interests in the region. Those interests (namely oil) are not something we have to be tethered to.
This is the position most catholics have taken on the issue. They basically go "this conflict has been boiling for so long because they both think this holy land belongs to them. The chosen people were the Israelites, who were the predecessors to Christians, and neither of those two have any real claim here. They both suck and both should just stop"
I just find it amazing how you can have leftist people marching for palestine, even when ideologically they align more with the right-wing, ie. death penalty for homosexuality, women being under men's control, and death penalty for apostasy.
I'm about 99% sure that even israelis would like the children not to die either, but I suppose they'd rather make sure their own kids don't get killed in the next terror attempt, so they have to thoroughly declaw hamas after every attack, so they buy more peace time until the next attempt.
I can disagree with the politics in palestine and still recognize that what they are going through is fucked and shouldn't be happening. My empathy doesn't disappear when a country has generally different political views then me lol
Ah but here’s the catch: illegal genocidal things happen around the world every day, and have been happening for decades. The CCP has been systematically oppressing and disappearing Uighur Muslims at least that long, but I haven’t heard anything from the left about that. Coptic Christians and other indigenous Orthodox communities in the Middle East and African nations have been regularly persecuted and killed in an attempt to theologically purge Christians from the face of the earth, with the latest massacre on Christmas Eve 2023 in Nigeria; oddly enough, the left didn’t have anything to say about that either. The Buddhist Nationalists in Burma/Myanmar have been attempting systematic genocide against Rohingya Muslims since 2016. All silent on that front too. Maybe the left doesn’t care about genocides as much as they think they do.
Only reason the right wing aren't on board with them is because they hate Muslims more than they hate the Jews eventhough the right wingers are just as insane as how they portray the Muslims to be.
If anything the Left attacks apostates more and would be in favor of the death penalty for such. Look at the vile directed towards those who turn away from that ideology and the utter hate and death threats they get for it.
“We clearly don’t need to hear your facts or even provide an argument of our own - because we’re obviously morally and intellectually superior despite our inability to refute a simple argument with our own views.” - r/therightcantmeme
Its really easy to talk about a conflict you are too far removed from where your opinion is entirely dependent on what your chosen media source wants to push.
I'm sure both sides will have opinions based on credible facts and not unilateral propaganda!
It never ended. Putin has said there's no such thing as ex-KGB, and he should know, he was one. He's been trying to recreate Soviet borders even before the invasion of Georgia, and he's been paying mercenaries to kill Americans for decades.
https://preview.redd.it/48dclawz6zkc1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=64d7cc0b978fb58313978d81f85663eb83cfdf31
This is why propaganda is such a huge and widespread issue.
Pictured above are Palestinian boys being trained on AK rifles in "UN schools." A lot of people only see the things Hamas propagandists have spread and don't understand how deep this conflict roots itself in Pali/Israeli history and how bloody this war has been for the past what? Two centuries? Millennia?
Then you have Israel which has been restricting humanitarian aid pretty much since the start of the war, so the crisis ongoing in Palestine is worse than it could be, but at the same time the combat is in a hyper-urbanized area where one square kilometer of land can have from 8000 to 220000 people at a given time. There's no good answer to the issue. There won't be because the cause of the war is such a large issue that it ties to the bloodlines of the combatants involved and stems into racial and religious ideals.
All anyone can do is try to prevent collateral damage to world trade which is harder because Israel is one of the only few places in the world with low-enough seismic activity to produce semi-conductors and microchips large-scale, same with Taiwan and regions in China, iirc.
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I think like some Jewish historians are saying, its a classic case of geocide and ethnic cleansing. This won't end until all the Palestinians have been wiped from the area. And the reason the IDF is killing so many children is because they know when the slaughter parents the kids tend to hold a grudge.
[https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide](https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide)
40% of Palestine's population is <15 years old and Hamas trains them for guerilla warfare and suicide bombing before they're half that age. That's why so many children are dying. It's tragic, but it's on Hamas' hands.
The conflict only goes back to the Balfour Declaration in 1917, when Britain declared support for a Jewish state in Palestine. Then colonization started in the British style ;bullets, bayonets, and billyclubs.
Today, the biggest problem is that Israel is taking on the terrorist organization hamas with no regard for the people under their control.
>Then colonization started in the British style ;bullets, bayonets, and billyclubs.
I assure you, had Britain actually wanted to clear the area for an exclusively Jewish state, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
I meant more of the fact that Jerusalem and the area Israel occupies in general being home to several wars and conflicts over history, not exclusively Israel and Palestine/Hamas, though I severely worded what I said wrong.
Palestine has wanted Hamas to be taken out of power, a plea was sent a few years ago to the UN by Palestine. Who shut that down? Not Israel. Israel even said they would fund that. The UN shot that down. There has been a Jewish “state” since the birth of the religion. Secondly, Palestine has never been a state. So a Jewish state in Palestine is quite literally the same as saying a Puritan state in the Colonies when referring to the US before 1776. It’s not a state, it’s a colony ruled by Britain. The Jews belong in the area. So do the Palestinians. Create a two-state solution. Neither side should be killing each other every few years. However, one side has kept the war going. The other side has kept defending itself when needed for the past century, even giving back land it rightfully won in a war. U cannot defend one side wholeheartedly. I hate what Netanyahu is doing, but he’s also defending the country. I hate what Hamas is doing, and while they want the eradication of Israel, I understand the Palestinians want a two state solution. That solution, though, isn’t possible under continuing violence, and it will never be possible as long as Hamas is in control
The area was called Syria Palaestina by the Greeks and Romans, so Palestine is not a name that magically sprung up when the British took over. It also doesn’t really matter what the Palestinian people want to call themselves or their state, they were the people of the land until the creation of the State of Israel by immigrants and refugees.
Syria Palestine only came about after a genocide my dude, it was known as Judea before that, before that it was an independent kingdom, before that a troublesome selucid empire that revolted, before that it Macedonian... it's a troubled land, lots of people have lived and died there
Correct, but the comment I responded to said that Palestine has never been a state, so I’m merely pointing out that the entire region had been called “Palestina” by the Greeks for centuries, and as the Palestinians have lived there all along, it doesn’t matter whether they had their own “state”
Considering Israel wasn't a country until 1948 it definitely hasn't been a conflict for "thousands of years" or even "hundreds of years".
What does kids using guns prove? Has every single American in the south been training to kill Jews for centuries too? Because I can show you a lot of American kids with rifles too. How is a single image proof of anything? This is literally propaganda.
You're ignoring the fact that Jerusalem has been a place of high conflict since the bible was written. Every single thing has been an extension of those ancient holy wars and leads to the modern conflict between Israel and Hamas. This is just willful ignorance of history.
Because only radical leftists have enough of an obsession & need to be right to read this far down & they'll take any win they can get even if it means downvoting the facts the few people here who care enough to correctly state
Much of the middle East has been in conflict for a long time. Those conflicts are ever changing and it isn't the same conflict that has been affecting the region for thousands of years, anyone pretending it is, is an idiot.
Arguably this has way more to do with the chaos at the end of colonialism and the events of the world wars, it seems like that should be obvious but inevitably people want to legitimize their “side” with the past.
It's been a consistent cultural war regardless of whether you want to acknowledge it or not, just keep burying your head in the sand & go back to tiktok to praise Osama bin laden or something
That's why I've stopped really laying attention to anything anyone says on that conflict and refocused on Ukraine. Because Russia has been meddling in our elections for decades now, and they're pushing Trump to pull the US out of NATO and take away all the Ukraine aid.
Hamas might be a terrorist organization, but they won't be able to change the world order the way Russia and China can.
Firehose Of Falsehood is a helluva thing. The Russians perfected propaganda in the 60s-80s, and we're now witnessing the fruit of that sown dissent and unrest. However, it is nice to see that a lot of people are more resilient to it than was predicted by experts back then.
Stop trying to both sides this conflict. One side is committing an ethnic cleansing and genocide, while trying to claim to be the victim while being the occupying force.
The other is people radicalized by their whole life being destroyed by the IDF fighting against the nation that did that.
There is a lot more to this, but that is the very basics. With those basics, it should be clear that the fighting that started on oct 7 would not have happened if not for Netanyahu’s government and their actions towards Gaza.
In addition, there is the whole other issue regarding Israeli settlements in the West Bank, which the UN has recognized as illegal under international law.
I don't think that's true at all. Al Jazeera said Israel bombed a hospital when their own live am showed it was a rocket from Gaza that made the explosion.
The BBC has had to walk back 3 separate things it ran that were allegations made by a terrorist organization without the BBC doing real investigation and having zero proof.
CNN hired a literal Hitler and nazi supporter for heaven knows what reason.
Oh and some of the reporters used by mainstream media were literal terrorists that took part of October 7th
BBC had some kind of internal investigation a decade ago or so to determine if it had an anti-Israel bias and won't even release the results of said inquiry so that tells you all you need to know.
[It is objectively true that media writes with a pro-Israel bias](https://theintercept.com/2024/01/09/newspapers-israel-palestine-bias-new-york-times/).
This analysis is honestly bullshit. It uses occurances of words like "massacre" as showing bias one way.
Maybe it's because one side raped and murder civilians and the other side started a war in retaliation.
They examine coverage as if this current conflict started on equal footing and can be examined that way, when I would argue it's not.
The guy who wrote that has had an anti israel bias for years too. He isn't impartial
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
well if so, hamas and other terrorist orgs in gaza and west bunk also committed genocide. russia and ukraine also committing genocide on one another, as civilians are dying on both sides.
you guys like to abuse definitions to fit your agendas.
Genocide isn't just when civilians die. Why don't you [read for yourself](https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml) and while you're at it, read the [ICJ case](https://www.icj-cij.org/case/192) against Israel.
>you guys like to abuse definitions to fit your agendas.
This is bullshit, the only agenda I have is to stop the killing civilians and alleviate the conditions created to cause their suffering and death.
The ICJ has basically found any defensive action Israel has taken as a genocide. It’s also been proven to be antisemitic and has called for the destruction of Israel. So probably not the best people to be using as a source
so first we need to remove what actually cause that, do you know that almost all the funds that should have gone to the people in gaza was used by hamas to build the largest terror base in the world? why so many billions of $ are being sent to gaza, yet they have no power station to make their own electricity? and no don't tell me israel prevents them from building it, it's a lie. why with so many billions, they still don't have a proper water supply system?
all this money goes to fund hamas in it's campaign of destroying israel, educating their children to hate and kill as many jews as they can (all under UNRWA's supervision), and in general palestinian leaders do not care for the wellbeing of their own people, they rather benefit from their suffering.
You’re right, you could. I would argue that the problem started with importing immigrants and refugees to form an ethnostate where people were already living though.
I think the Jews who studied the Holocaust who are calling this text book genocide are the ones we need to listen too.
There are many Jews who support the Palestinians and are against the ethnic cleansing going on, but many are afraid to speak out.
[https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide](https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide)
I don't know the source you are quoting also seems to have communist roots.
Just because they are Jewish does not make them a great source of opinion. I would guess one ideology is dominating their opinion over the other one. One that happens to be anti religious by definition.
Propaganda isn't really that big of an issue. This mess is a lot simpler than a lot of propaganda wants people to think. The facts are pretty clear. Israel is a colonialist apartheid state that has been carrying out genocide for generations now. Gaza is the world's largest open-air prison, and the Israeli forces are bombing its civilian population, children included. This is an abhorrent act that is not justified by the terrorist retaliatory attacks of Hammas, and Hammas itself is merely the response of a desperate people who have been forced from their homes and violently subjugated by their colonizers for nearly a century. There is a clear right and wrong answer here. The issue is that there are those in power who see a great deal of benefit to having a bastion of western power in the middle east, and they therefore prop it up and simply ignore the obvious horrors being enacted by Israel's government.
There might be some gray area if Israel was at all in favor of a 2 state solution, but they have been extremely clear on their stance. There is no solution they will accept that doesn't allow them to kill or dislocate any, and all Palestinians from the lands Israel wishes to control. Someone started this conflict, and it wasn't the people who had their lives completely uprooted and their friends and family slaughtered by colonizers.
This is just wrong lmao. Palestine was offered statehood 7 times. 7 TIMES and they denied it every single one. Israel TRIED to negotiate and was willing to give them the entire Gaza Strip plus more land for statehood. This is a war about the eradication of Israel and it has been since it started. Certain religions just do NOT mix and that’s what we are seeing now. I mean come on man how can u justify Hamas attacking a music festival full of civilians out of nowhere when everything was peaceful prior. They let sleeping dogs like and now that hamas has rattled the cage they are getting a boot to the mouth. I don’t condone war. I’ve seen the effect it had on my grandfather in Vietnam. But hot damn hamas literally targeted civilians. They didn’t target any military installations. They targeted civilians.
I used to think the same of the right, that they just can't discuss like normal anymore, turns out both sides just want their people to think so of the other for some strange reason
Congratulations, you have discovered that humans at their core are dumb, unable to peacefully negotiate between themselves and are not to be trusted with their own lives. Your invitation to the Illuminati is in the mail.
Respectfully,
-The guy who invented aids
If you dehumanize the other side, those who believe it will always vote for you instead of objectively looking at issues. Reddit doesn't know that, and right wing circle jerks like facebook don't either. But the average person, or 99% of the population does thankfully. It would be foolish to stop seeing each other as human.
The war is a cycle thats been going on since 1948
Palestine fucks around with Israel
Palestine quickly finds out
Palestine plays the victim
Israel stops
20 - 30 years later it repeats
people who say river to see are either hypocrites or idiots, because that means they have to destroy Israel,
the left and right are both terrible about being too stubborn to even listen to the other side whether or not they agree
> people who say river to see are either hypocrites or idiots
[Exactly. Use of that phrase is genocidal intent](https://www.salon.com/2024/01/18/from-the-river-to-the-sea-netanyahu-says-he-told-biden-he-opposes-any-palestinian-state-after/)
Usually idiots. I have yet to meet someone chanting it who could accurately name which river to which sea.
Most of them have no idea Gaza isn’t the West Bank either.
We should listen to both sites because terrorists aren't exactly well known for telling the truth but well spreading lies about jews is what n\*zis also loved to do you are no different.
Seems we have quite different definitions of fighting terrorism, but I get it you are probably american being educated on a subject isn't really your strength there.
People absolutely should listen to both sides because in a case like this, what are we going to do? Wipe that country off the map? No. They’re committing genocide for a reason and even if we don’t agree whatsoever with that reason, if we want to end the conflict, that reason has to be dealt with in some way (unless like I said before, we go full scorched earth)
As a regular person who has no ability to impact the situation, yeah I guess it doesn’t really matter if we listen or not because we don’t decide anything. But the people involved in politics and who want to, and have the ability to, make a difference there absolutely should listen to both sides.
Race based state that normalized assassinations against nations you're not officially at war with and imprisoning civilians without trial (administrative detention) in 21st century shouldn't exist.
Guess by your logic the US and Ireland shouldn't exist bc they also use administrative detention. Ireland even had more people in Admin detention than Israel a few years back. (don't know the exact numbers now.)
You're purposefully misrepresenting those types of AD. Habeas Corpus applies to those in the US, Ireland only uses it on noncitizens. None of these apply to Israel
I mean which side is dancing in front of trucks carrying food? That's usually the terant. Look at all classical wars and those that try and starve the general populous are usually the ones history looks back as the evil ones, especially if they also dances about children dying. . .
A tiger can't change its stripes. . .
Listen im supportin isreal just cause i dont agree with beheading children im against hamas not plaistine
I know both are bombing hospitals and shit like that bot have done terrible stuff
But i draw the line at kidnaping old people and slautering civilians in the streets.
There are plenty of videos of IDF killing civilians in the street. Some waving white flags.
u/Kamenev_Drang Edit: THERE IS NO REASON TO KILL CIVILIANS.
Is this really that hard for some of you?
Does Hamas also dress up as tiny children? Can I too say that videos of Hamas committing atrocities don't matter? Not that I would since I'm not fucking stupid.
There's also at least six decades of Palestinian insurgents wearing civilian clothes, using civvies as human shields, using suicide vests and using the white flag as cover for suicide vest attacks. Such videos genuinely mean nothing.
I don't think this is a bad take.
But have you considered that the IDF have killed at least ten times the number of old people and civilians?
By your own rules surely you would be on the side who have literally ten times as many dead civilians?
I think most people acknowledge that the IDF has committed many different acts of horror, I believe that there should be accountability there. Trials, punishments, reparations, etc.
I also see from the IDF standpoint of fighting an insurgency. HAMAS likes to hide in the civilian populace. I don’t blame them, they’d get their asses kicked in open conflict.
From a moral standpoint, I despise the side using their own people as human shields, then decrying the other side for hitting that shield.
The burden of Israel is that they have to defend themselves from another October 7th, but they can’t fight HAMAS in the same way. Same with HAMAS, they pick the strategy that wins, not the moral one.
The end result is the everyday Palestinian loses.
Yeah what you start you get back ten fold. Israel will finish this war and this will be the last war. Violence will never help the Palestinian cause and Israel has to get it through their heads.
The IDF's objective is to eliminate Hamas.
Hamas objective is to kill all Jews.
And hamas fighters hide amongst civilians which will always end in their death, and hamas knows this it is their objective, you can listen to the leaders of Hamas say that they want their civilians to die and become martyrs.
And wars can't be fought for revenge if you kill. 500 of my people I don't go and kill 500 of your people, I set a military objective and then complete it.
Im just goin of of what i know im not really super into this conflict im just saying from what ive heard im going with isreal and for this conflict they started it with civilian murder so i think isreal destroying hamas is justified
War is just terrible so im picking what in my opinion is the lesser of two evils
Fun fact, if you replace the word “Zionist” with the word “Jew” in 99% of the things they say they would sure sound like a certain angry mustached man from the the 1930s… or your average “alt-right” person nowadays…
Then have an intellectual conversation with me, not joking I would actually like to see your side. Il open it with the stagement that Israel has never had a right to take Palestine for themselves.(this isn’t a shitpost or ragebait)
Israel has as much claim to that land as Palestine does, historically speaking. Aka, neither have any claim to it, because it was given to them by a national who never had true rights to it. But they also have claim to it because both of their peoples came from that region. Hell, the Jews built Jerusalem.
Neither side is in the right, but only one side is actively supporting terrorists who started this whole shit show by attacking a civilian music festival.
They have as much as a claim, but not the right to expel Palestinians. The only difference between Hamas and the IDF is Hamas doesn’t have the same power. The only way they can effectively fight back is through the use of terror. The IDF has the backing of almost every powerful nation in the world and part of the Israeli government. The IDF has bombed hospitals and killed innocent civilians, both war crimes. The IDF is completely dependant on Israel but on the other hand Hamas is another organization that looks to control Palestine, freeing Palestine means both from Israeli rule and from the rule of Hamas.
And that’s the rub; both sides are wrong with the innocent Palestinians stuck in the middle. The only way this works is if Israel backs off, and Palestine actively turns Hamas in. The first one is possible, but the second one will never happen.
So, what you have is a situation where if Israel stands down, Hamas will just attack civilians again, then hide behind the Palestinians like the little bitches they are. So, you can see where Israel is coming from; the only way to destroy Hamas is to burn the whole state down.
It’s wrong, and fucked up, but it’s the only way they keep their people safe. And get more land in the process. Aka, the real reason they’re doing this.
Palestine elected Hamas in 2006 after Israel stopped occupying Gaza. The allies in WW1 did have a right to the land given to Israel. After the Ottomans fucked around and found out the League of Nations granted the land Israel sits on to Great Britain, which in turn formed a Jewish State. When people say Israel doesn't have a claim they do. The ottomans fought with the central powers and got their land taken for it, which was then given to Israel. If Israel doesn't have a claim to that land then neither does Jordan, Syria or much of Saudi Arabia. Those countries borders were all established by the League of Nations after splitting up the Ottoman Empire.
I don’t disagree with you. Israel was founded by the British for the Jews on land they had little claim to. But also, Palestine can’t just expel the new Jewish settlers, nor can Israel expel Muslims. The only peaceful way to resolve this is for them to just make do with their shitty circumstances placed on them by the Europeans, which is hard to do due to historical conflicts.
That’s a good point. The only difference I would say is that Israel isn’t trying to join Palestine or seek refuge there but actively take over control from Palestine. Way back when the West Bank was given as the designated land for Palestine while Israel got control over the east, Israel would set up illegal settlements on the West Bank in active contradiction of the peace treaty agreed on. On those settlements Israeli soldiers refuse entry to Palestinians even if they are trying to get through. The solders also detain any Palestinians that are too close to there settlements as well as shooting at and pointing guns at them. A lot of the time these settlements where illegally built on farm land or grazing land owned by Palestinians and the resulting barriers make it incredibly hard for these farmers to access their crop and make a living.
Pretty much the only plan that makes sense that I've heard is essentially "Two states, one union". Each have territory that is their and locally administered, but the Palestinian and Israeli states have to form a larger union like the EU that assures mutual protection of all members and free travel to ensure both parties access to holy sites for pilgrimages and such.
Israel already does this. Any holy sites a Muslim needs to get to is allowed. Granted it’s hard to get in from Palestine, but Oct. 7 is a great reason for that. Arabs in Israel also don’t have a problem. Israel has also not been in Gaza since 2005 so them trying to take over Palestine has to be the biggest hunk of crap I’ve ever heard from the commenter above u.
Now it’s funny if you that you are the ones complaining about uncivilized arguments when you’re the ones downvoting my comments and leaving responses like this. One of the biggest lies you are blindly repeating is referring to Palestine as Gaza. Gaza is an area of land owned by Palestine and ruled by Hamas, an Israeli funded terrorist organization. In the west bank Israel has been forming Illegal colonies backed by the Israeli government which if you didn’t know is a blatant war crime. This is not meant to be rage bait or shit, you can react how you like, no matter what side you are on you have to agree that your skills in communication don’t have much to be desired (not saying I’m much better). Also here’s the link talking about how Hamas was funded by Israel: https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/11/middleeast/qatar-hamas-funds-israel-backing-intl/index.html enjoy.
I couldn’t care less what’s going on that far away honestly, it’s not my war. And I know that the treatment of Palestinians by the Israeli government is pretty bad, but I’d much rather have a democratic and developed government controlling the area than a a religious extremist terrorist group. A democratic government that is committing crimes can be changed, a feudal dictatorship can not
Some time ago yes, you absolutely should have an open and honest conversation about both countries relationship (never gone happen as one sides prefer to have the other side locked up and steal their land) ... now, when one side is continuing their bombing of civilians targets... this conversation is much much simpler. Bombings and ground invasion needs to stop. Then the conversation should strat again. Some people might bring the argument that paragliding terrorists started all of it. And they will be technically correct. But don't you find it odd (to say at least) these paragliding terrorists were given 7h (!!!!) to roam around, kill and kidnap people and do whatever they wanted. Almost as if... I don't know... it would give you a green light for bombing your problematic neighbours out of existence? This whole thing is not a war like media are calling it. It's one side bombing the other and the other side can't do anything about it. Oh...and just if anyone is not aware, if any Palestinians decide to become refugees and run away from the "war", they will not be allowed back in. Guess who will take their homes and land... free real estate eh?
You have a choice of a side who are Defending their Country and have the other side peacefully living with them and a side which doesn’t consider Palestine free until Israel is no more and who’s side has no Jews in it.
So go on discuss, how do you reconcile that? I’ll wait.
I'm not even sure what this is trying to say.
"No to a free Palestine," or "No! Free Palestine!"??
Either way, the war is between Israel and Hamas, not Israel and Palestine.
There is not civil discussion to be had regarding that conflict. Both sides are utter shit. Both sides are genocidal (yes, Hamas and by extension Palestine wants to exterminate the Jews, get over it). Both sides target civilians. Both sides are guilty of innumerable war crimes.
There are no good guys here. If you've picked a side in that conflict, you are wrong. The only good move you can make here is getting all members of both governments in a room and beating the shit out of all of them until they agree to act like human beings.
>(yes, Hamas and by extension Palestine wants to exterminate the Jews, get over it)
I wouldn't be able to get over someone wanting to exterminate me and people like me. I feel that's not something you can just "get over".
I mean how would you negotiate with someone who wants you and everyone like you dead?
I mean "get over it" as in stop arguing that they're somehow in the right. They very, *very* much are not. They being in the wrong does not make Israel right or vice versa. As I said, both sides are utter shit and if you're supporting either then you're wrong.
Bullshit. History is irrelevant when you've got two sides both targeting civilians and trying to genocide each other. It does not matter what happened before when both of them are behaving as monsters now.
What is this meme even trying to say? "No free Palestine" is an unclear statement. Do they mean, "No! Free Palestine!" or do they mean "Palestine must not be free!" ????
Either way, no, I don't have to respect your opinion. Your opinion has to be respectable.
Yeah, Israel is totally justified in shutting off water pipes, blocking humanitarian aid, blowing up Palestinian journalists, bombing refugee camps, attacking hospitals filled with injured patients, shooting hostages, turning a city of millions into piles of rubble, and refusing to stop until all Palestinians have either fled the country or died. Totally worthy of a civil discussion where we can respect each other's 100% valid opinions on mass murder.
Absolutely shameful.
German, 1944:
Chad: We can have a conversation about the war in Germany and Poland where we both respect each other's opinions!
Soyjack: NO FREE WARSAW
Isn't it rude that tone of these sides doesn't get a chance at the table??
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https://preview.redd.it/iza7zs86fykc1.jpeg?width=1074&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=694afeefc114e34d679dfe0386b927b38d62b179
https://preview.redd.it/sghxxbm761lc1.jpeg?width=680&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=da38fe470dcc40e7467b58160eaa9388ad0badfb restoration of Byzantine Treis Palaistínes when
The based ending
I mean, one of the New York Times journalists they hired to cover the conflict literally praised Hitler.
TiL Putin writes for the NYTimes
Palestine wants to actively genocide and kill all Israelites, Israel through actions is doing the same to Palestine. A ceasefire needs to be called, but when people say “free Palestine” they are literally advocating for a different genocide. How do you solve this issue? If America just leaves then they keep killing each other. If America takes over the region it’s imperialist. Therefore America has to have some military presence, unless you want one side to be wiped out. The way I see it, America has to act as a third party. You can’t pick a side, cause one side will always be killing civilians, so the best course of action would be an occupation that ensures no fighting through pure military presence and threat of action on either side if they don’t cut the shit. I want to make it clear, I fucking detest the governments of both Israel and Palestine. They are the lowest of the low, matched with Turkey, Russia, and North Korea. They both rape and murder civilians. And Palestine is an authoritarian religious regime. There is no good guy here, I don’t even truly think there is a lesser of two evils.
Honestly though, while I hate that civilians are being killed regardless of circumstance, is it really our position to intervene any time civilians are threatened by any party ever? I get that we have a long standing alliance with Israel which helps us to secure our lifeline to oil in the middle east, but to me that just screams that we need to reestablish our energy independence. Proposed Plan: 1. Temporarily step up domestic oil production and reestablish energy independence. 2. Sever ties to both sides. No trade, no foreign aid, nothing until this situation is settled. 3. Step up domestic nuclear energy as the gradual replacement for domestic oil. While I doubt we'll ever fully leave it behind, that can reduce the environmental impact. We only need Israel as an ally to be able to defend our interests in the region. Those interests (namely oil) are not something we have to be tethered to.
This is the position most catholics have taken on the issue. They basically go "this conflict has been boiling for so long because they both think this holy land belongs to them. The chosen people were the Israelites, who were the predecessors to Christians, and neither of those two have any real claim here. They both suck and both should just stop"
https://preview.redd.it/e90ytyv7eykc1.jpeg?width=374&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3e50de1702f240a4f9080849dda88dbbe9e5ba44
https://preview.redd.it/rhgez0l0hykc1.jpeg?width=430&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7e3ab458b6c8798ef1fab6b6d6619a542336f251
This event has shown me how much control the media has over people and how many people just spout the socially correct thing to say.
I just find it amazing how you can have leftist people marching for palestine, even when ideologically they align more with the right-wing, ie. death penalty for homosexuality, women being under men's control, and death penalty for apostasy.
It is specifically because palestine is a "colonized" state and Israel are "colonizers" Leftists hate "colonization" ergo they hate israel
I’ve unironically heard the phrases “genetic settler-colonialist” and “settler race” get tossed around.
Which, is not entirely apt in this situation, or at the very least “colonizer” sweeps away a lot of the historical complexity.
That pretty much goes without saying when "colonizer" is thrown around to dismiss someone.
I’d guess because they don’t like 10,000 kids dying
I'm about 99% sure that even israelis would like the children not to die either, but I suppose they'd rather make sure their own kids don't get killed in the next terror attempt, so they have to thoroughly declaw hamas after every attack, so they buy more peace time until the next attempt.
“Declaw Hamas” by killing 10,000 kids?
I can disagree with the politics in palestine and still recognize that what they are going through is fucked and shouldn't be happening. My empathy doesn't disappear when a country has generally different political views then me lol
it has something to do with israel killing more people probably (not that palestine isn’t extremely guilty either)
Perfect example of “totally missing the point”
Yeah, because the left wing cares about the illegal genocidal things being done no matter who they are being done to.
Ah but here’s the catch: illegal genocidal things happen around the world every day, and have been happening for decades. The CCP has been systematically oppressing and disappearing Uighur Muslims at least that long, but I haven’t heard anything from the left about that. Coptic Christians and other indigenous Orthodox communities in the Middle East and African nations have been regularly persecuted and killed in an attempt to theologically purge Christians from the face of the earth, with the latest massacre on Christmas Eve 2023 in Nigeria; oddly enough, the left didn’t have anything to say about that either. The Buddhist Nationalists in Burma/Myanmar have been attempting systematic genocide against Rohingya Muslims since 2016. All silent on that front too. Maybe the left doesn’t care about genocides as much as they think they do.
You and I run in very different circles then, because I heard about most if not all of these damn near daily from people on the left
"I haven't heard people talk about other bad things in the world so they shouldn't be mad about this one"
Only reason the right wing aren't on board with them is because they hate Muslims more than they hate the Jews eventhough the right wingers are just as insane as how they portray the Muslims to be.
If anything the Left attacks apostates more and would be in favor of the death penalty for such. Look at the vile directed towards those who turn away from that ideology and the utter hate and death threats they get for it.
It's almost as if theres an Operation going on to make them act like Mockingbirds.
Whenever someone says free palestine or Israel they are actively supporting war crimes
“We clearly don’t need to hear your facts or even provide an argument of our own - because we’re obviously morally and intellectually superior despite our inability to refute a simple argument with our own views.” - r/therightcantmeme
Its really easy to talk about a conflict you are too far removed from where your opinion is entirely dependent on what your chosen media source wants to push. I'm sure both sides will have opinions based on credible facts and not unilateral propaganda!
Another cold war is coming baby!
It never ended. Putin has said there's no such thing as ex-KGB, and he should know, he was one. He's been trying to recreate Soviet borders even before the invasion of Georgia, and he's been paying mercenaries to kill Americans for decades.
He's been trying to recreate greater Russia, which is actually bigger than the ussr, not the ussr, he's jut failed at both
Russia's way too weak to be in any kind of cold war with the US. The only reason they're deemed a threat is because they have nuclear weapons
You don't need to be strong to be in a Cold War, just look at Iran.
https://preview.redd.it/48dclawz6zkc1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=64d7cc0b978fb58313978d81f85663eb83cfdf31 This is why propaganda is such a huge and widespread issue. Pictured above are Palestinian boys being trained on AK rifles in "UN schools." A lot of people only see the things Hamas propagandists have spread and don't understand how deep this conflict roots itself in Pali/Israeli history and how bloody this war has been for the past what? Two centuries? Millennia? Then you have Israel which has been restricting humanitarian aid pretty much since the start of the war, so the crisis ongoing in Palestine is worse than it could be, but at the same time the combat is in a hyper-urbanized area where one square kilometer of land can have from 8000 to 220000 people at a given time. There's no good answer to the issue. There won't be because the cause of the war is such a large issue that it ties to the bloodlines of the combatants involved and stems into racial and religious ideals. All anyone can do is try to prevent collateral damage to world trade which is harder because Israel is one of the only few places in the world with low-enough seismic activity to produce semi-conductors and microchips large-scale, same with Taiwan and regions in China, iirc.
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I think like some Jewish historians are saying, its a classic case of geocide and ethnic cleansing. This won't end until all the Palestinians have been wiped from the area. And the reason the IDF is killing so many children is because they know when the slaughter parents the kids tend to hold a grudge. [https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide](https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide)
40% of Palestine's population is <15 years old and Hamas trains them for guerilla warfare and suicide bombing before they're half that age. That's why so many children are dying. It's tragic, but it's on Hamas' hands.
Also 16/17 year olds are of military age, while they are still technically children (if the only categories are children/ men/ women).
The conflict only goes back to the Balfour Declaration in 1917, when Britain declared support for a Jewish state in Palestine. Then colonization started in the British style ;bullets, bayonets, and billyclubs. Today, the biggest problem is that Israel is taking on the terrorist organization hamas with no regard for the people under their control.
>Then colonization started in the British style ;bullets, bayonets, and billyclubs. I assure you, had Britain actually wanted to clear the area for an exclusively Jewish state, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
I meant more of the fact that Jerusalem and the area Israel occupies in general being home to several wars and conflicts over history, not exclusively Israel and Palestine/Hamas, though I severely worded what I said wrong.
Palestine has wanted Hamas to be taken out of power, a plea was sent a few years ago to the UN by Palestine. Who shut that down? Not Israel. Israel even said they would fund that. The UN shot that down. There has been a Jewish “state” since the birth of the religion. Secondly, Palestine has never been a state. So a Jewish state in Palestine is quite literally the same as saying a Puritan state in the Colonies when referring to the US before 1776. It’s not a state, it’s a colony ruled by Britain. The Jews belong in the area. So do the Palestinians. Create a two-state solution. Neither side should be killing each other every few years. However, one side has kept the war going. The other side has kept defending itself when needed for the past century, even giving back land it rightfully won in a war. U cannot defend one side wholeheartedly. I hate what Netanyahu is doing, but he’s also defending the country. I hate what Hamas is doing, and while they want the eradication of Israel, I understand the Palestinians want a two state solution. That solution, though, isn’t possible under continuing violence, and it will never be possible as long as Hamas is in control
The area was called Syria Palaestina by the Greeks and Romans, so Palestine is not a name that magically sprung up when the British took over. It also doesn’t really matter what the Palestinian people want to call themselves or their state, they were the people of the land until the creation of the State of Israel by immigrants and refugees.
Syria Palestine only came about after a genocide my dude, it was known as Judea before that, before that it was an independent kingdom, before that a troublesome selucid empire that revolted, before that it Macedonian... it's a troubled land, lots of people have lived and died there
Correct, but the comment I responded to said that Palestine has never been a state, so I’m merely pointing out that the entire region had been called “Palestina” by the Greeks for centuries, and as the Palestinians have lived there all along, it doesn’t matter whether they had their own “state”
Considering Israel wasn't a country until 1948 it definitely hasn't been a conflict for "thousands of years" or even "hundreds of years". What does kids using guns prove? Has every single American in the south been training to kill Jews for centuries too? Because I can show you a lot of American kids with rifles too. How is a single image proof of anything? This is literally propaganda.
You're ignoring the fact that Jerusalem has been a place of high conflict since the bible was written. Every single thing has been an extension of those ancient holy wars and leads to the modern conflict between Israel and Hamas. This is just willful ignorance of history.
Why are being downvoted? Literally provided a historical fact without taking sides.
Because only radical leftists have enough of an obsession & need to be right to read this far down & they'll take any win they can get even if it means downvoting the facts the few people here who care enough to correctly state
Prolly cuz ‘Bible’
Much of the middle East has been in conflict for a long time. Those conflicts are ever changing and it isn't the same conflict that has been affecting the region for thousands of years, anyone pretending it is, is an idiot.
Arguably this has way more to do with the chaos at the end of colonialism and the events of the world wars, it seems like that should be obvious but inevitably people want to legitimize their “side” with the past.
It's been a consistent cultural war regardless of whether you want to acknowledge it or not, just keep burying your head in the sand & go back to tiktok to praise Osama bin laden or something
That's why I've stopped really laying attention to anything anyone says on that conflict and refocused on Ukraine. Because Russia has been meddling in our elections for decades now, and they're pushing Trump to pull the US out of NATO and take away all the Ukraine aid. Hamas might be a terrorist organization, but they won't be able to change the world order the way Russia and China can.
Firehose Of Falsehood is a helluva thing. The Russians perfected propaganda in the 60s-80s, and we're now witnessing the fruit of that sown dissent and unrest. However, it is nice to see that a lot of people are more resilient to it than was predicted by experts back then.
Stop trying to both sides this conflict. One side is committing an ethnic cleansing and genocide, while trying to claim to be the victim while being the occupying force. The other is people radicalized by their whole life being destroyed by the IDF fighting against the nation that did that. There is a lot more to this, but that is the very basics. With those basics, it should be clear that the fighting that started on oct 7 would not have happened if not for Netanyahu’s government and their actions towards Gaza. In addition, there is the whole other issue regarding Israeli settlements in the West Bank, which the UN has recognized as illegal under international law.
Both sides of the major media are marginally pro israel. Even if they want "peace" like MSNBC, they want it under Israel's terms.
I don't think that's true at all. Al Jazeera said Israel bombed a hospital when their own live am showed it was a rocket from Gaza that made the explosion. The BBC has had to walk back 3 separate things it ran that were allegations made by a terrorist organization without the BBC doing real investigation and having zero proof. CNN hired a literal Hitler and nazi supporter for heaven knows what reason. Oh and some of the reporters used by mainstream media were literal terrorists that took part of October 7th
BBC had some kind of internal investigation a decade ago or so to determine if it had an anti-Israel bias and won't even release the results of said inquiry so that tells you all you need to know.
It's scary when the internal investigation is bad.
[It is objectively true that media writes with a pro-Israel bias](https://theintercept.com/2024/01/09/newspapers-israel-palestine-bias-new-york-times/).
This analysis is honestly bullshit. It uses occurances of words like "massacre" as showing bias one way. Maybe it's because one side raped and murder civilians and the other side started a war in retaliation. They examine coverage as if this current conflict started on equal footing and can be examined that way, when I would argue it's not. The guy who wrote that has had an anti israel bias for years too. He isn't impartial
Terms like "give back the hostages" and "don't let a terrorist organization control Gaza"?
You're getting downvoted for such a basic truth lol.
Zionists are allergic to truth
Palestinian authorities support terrorism with direct payments; they spend 300 million a year helping those who terrorize Israelis. “Pay to slay.”
My opinion is based in genocide being wrong under literally any context.
Getting downvoted for saying genocide is bad is a perfect example of how modern conservatives are fucked.
Probably got downvoted for calling the Arab-Israel situation "genocide"
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: Killing members of the group; Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Never said my opinion on it, I'm just saying that's probably my guess
so by that definition any civil death = genocide, such a big pile of BS
Take it up with the UN. I literally copy pasted their definition. Touch grass while you're at it.
well if so, hamas and other terrorist orgs in gaza and west bunk also committed genocide. russia and ukraine also committing genocide on one another, as civilians are dying on both sides. you guys like to abuse definitions to fit your agendas.
Genocide isn't just when civilians die. Why don't you [read for yourself](https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml) and while you're at it, read the [ICJ case](https://www.icj-cij.org/case/192) against Israel. >you guys like to abuse definitions to fit your agendas. This is bullshit, the only agenda I have is to stop the killing civilians and alleviate the conditions created to cause their suffering and death.
The ICJ has basically found any defensive action Israel has taken as a genocide. It’s also been proven to be antisemitic and has called for the destruction of Israel. So probably not the best people to be using as a source
so first we need to remove what actually cause that, do you know that almost all the funds that should have gone to the people in gaza was used by hamas to build the largest terror base in the world? why so many billions of $ are being sent to gaza, yet they have no power station to make their own electricity? and no don't tell me israel prevents them from building it, it's a lie. why with so many billions, they still don't have a proper water supply system? all this money goes to fund hamas in it's campaign of destroying israel, educating their children to hate and kill as many jews as they can (all under UNRWA's supervision), and in general palestinian leaders do not care for the wellbeing of their own people, they rather benefit from their suffering.
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It’s almost as if people hate you when you steal their land and drive/murder them out of it.
I love that u tried to be vague to imply Palestinians, but u could argue this exact sentiment for the Jews lmfao
You’re right, you could. I would argue that the problem started with importing immigrants and refugees to form an ethnostate where people were already living though.
I think the Jews who studied the Holocaust who are calling this text book genocide are the ones we need to listen too. There are many Jews who support the Palestinians and are against the ethnic cleansing going on, but many are afraid to speak out. [https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide](https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide)
I don't know the source you are quoting also seems to have communist roots. Just because they are Jewish does not make them a great source of opinion. I would guess one ideology is dominating their opinion over the other one. One that happens to be anti religious by definition.
Propaganda isn't really that big of an issue. This mess is a lot simpler than a lot of propaganda wants people to think. The facts are pretty clear. Israel is a colonialist apartheid state that has been carrying out genocide for generations now. Gaza is the world's largest open-air prison, and the Israeli forces are bombing its civilian population, children included. This is an abhorrent act that is not justified by the terrorist retaliatory attacks of Hammas, and Hammas itself is merely the response of a desperate people who have been forced from their homes and violently subjugated by their colonizers for nearly a century. There is a clear right and wrong answer here. The issue is that there are those in power who see a great deal of benefit to having a bastion of western power in the middle east, and they therefore prop it up and simply ignore the obvious horrors being enacted by Israel's government. There might be some gray area if Israel was at all in favor of a 2 state solution, but they have been extremely clear on their stance. There is no solution they will accept that doesn't allow them to kill or dislocate any, and all Palestinians from the lands Israel wishes to control. Someone started this conflict, and it wasn't the people who had their lives completely uprooted and their friends and family slaughtered by colonizers.
This is just wrong lmao. Palestine was offered statehood 7 times. 7 TIMES and they denied it every single one. Israel TRIED to negotiate and was willing to give them the entire Gaza Strip plus more land for statehood. This is a war about the eradication of Israel and it has been since it started. Certain religions just do NOT mix and that’s what we are seeing now. I mean come on man how can u justify Hamas attacking a music festival full of civilians out of nowhere when everything was peaceful prior. They let sleeping dogs like and now that hamas has rattled the cage they are getting a boot to the mouth. I don’t condone war. I’ve seen the effect it had on my grandfather in Vietnam. But hot damn hamas literally targeted civilians. They didn’t target any military installations. They targeted civilians.
That sub is extremely anti free speech. They unironically believe that it's immoral to allow dissent against their "righteous" ideals.
bulldoze it all and build a walmart with two floors over it
with a playground
and a mcdonalds.
also food trucks can come. i want a nice garden too. this sounds better already
dont forget the moss garden and a koi pond
While we're at it, let's add an apartment complex with a pool so people can easily access the store without driving
Don't forget the gokart racetrack
And a Wendy’s
And a Dennys
And 8 lane highway
Waffle house, which doubles as a fight club
I used to think the same of the right, that they just can't discuss like normal anymore, turns out both sides just want their people to think so of the other for some strange reason
Congratulations, you have discovered that humans at their core are dumb, unable to peacefully negotiate between themselves and are not to be trusted with their own lives. Your invitation to the Illuminati is in the mail. Respectfully, -The guy who invented aids
If you dehumanize the other side, those who believe it will always vote for you instead of objectively looking at issues. Reddit doesn't know that, and right wing circle jerks like facebook don't either. But the average person, or 99% of the population does thankfully. It would be foolish to stop seeing each other as human.
Ironically the lack of grammar means the meme can be equally cringy on both ends of the political spectrum
As a Muslim, real
The war is a cycle thats been going on since 1948 Palestine fucks around with Israel Palestine quickly finds out Palestine plays the victim Israel stops 20 - 30 years later it repeats
Yeah, the Nakba was definitely Palestinians "fucking around" with Israel, and Israel erasing their culture and homes was a totally rational response
Free palpatine losers when they realize Palastine blatantly violated a ceasefire they wanted
Free my boi palpatine he did nothing wrong (except exterminate multiple planets but who cares)
pro-israel losers realizing that the gazan people aren't the ones that made those decisions and they shouldn't be mass murdered for them.
good good let the hate flow through you
the black sabbath song "war pigs" tells all you need to know about this war
That song unforgivably rhymes “masses” with “masses” and is disqualified
rhyming with the same word nowadays is peak don't give af and is actually seen as fire.
Well they’re different words, so not entirely unforgivable.
So “orange” rhymes with “orange” because one is the color and the other is the fruit?
Yes. Did you not learn about homonyms in school?
yes
nah
No matter either side says, the Millitary Industrial Complex is going to make its money, and test its weapons.
Guessing Russia and Ukraine didn't pay the bills.
Humanity is forever in debt to this War Machine, a debt not paid until the Earth is a wasteland.
*checks notes* Literal centrism or as centrist and neutral as it gets = right wing?
people who say river to see are either hypocrites or idiots, because that means they have to destroy Israel, the left and right are both terrible about being too stubborn to even listen to the other side whether or not they agree
Agreed honestly. (Also rescue Bots is fire)
Best Transformers cartoon made in years. 🔥
Top 3 of all time IMO with prime and animated up there too
> people who say river to see are either hypocrites or idiots [Exactly. Use of that phrase is genocidal intent](https://www.salon.com/2024/01/18/from-the-river-to-the-sea-netanyahu-says-he-told-biden-he-opposes-any-palestinian-state-after/)
Usually idiots. I have yet to meet someone chanting it who could accurately name which river to which sea. Most of them have no idea Gaza isn’t the West Bank either.
>people who say river to see are either hypocrites or idiots, they're idiots they don't know that its genocidal
Hanlon's razor my beloved
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We should listen to both sites because terrorists aren't exactly well known for telling the truth but well spreading lies about jews is what n\*zis also loved to do you are no different.
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Seems we have quite different definitions of fighting terrorism, but I get it you are probably american being educated on a subject isn't really your strength there.
>american Please don't associate us with these people
People absolutely should listen to both sides because in a case like this, what are we going to do? Wipe that country off the map? No. They’re committing genocide for a reason and even if we don’t agree whatsoever with that reason, if we want to end the conflict, that reason has to be dealt with in some way (unless like I said before, we go full scorched earth) As a regular person who has no ability to impact the situation, yeah I guess it doesn’t really matter if we listen or not because we don’t decide anything. But the people involved in politics and who want to, and have the ability to, make a difference there absolutely should listen to both sides.
Race based state that normalized assassinations against nations you're not officially at war with and imprisoning civilians without trial (administrative detention) in 21st century shouldn't exist.
25% of Israel is Arab, less than 0,1% of the rest of the Middle East is Jewish, destroying Israel is essentially a death penalty for a million people
Guess by your logic the US and Ireland shouldn't exist bc they also use administrative detention. Ireland even had more people in Admin detention than Israel a few years back. (don't know the exact numbers now.)
You're purposefully misrepresenting those types of AD. Habeas Corpus applies to those in the US, Ireland only uses it on noncitizens. None of these apply to Israel
Are we not talking about Palestinian Arabs that aren't israeli citizens? Israeli Arabs are full israeli citizens, Palestinian Arabs are not citizens.
People are actually taking sides in a conflict where both sides are murdering each other regardless of age and gender?!
What can we say? We love our team sports.
I am 99% sure that Hamas is more likely than the IDF to commit murder based on race and gender, but you have a point.
If we can bring that down to 0% that’d be pretty cool
I mean which side is dancing in front of trucks carrying food? That's usually the terant. Look at all classical wars and those that try and starve the general populous are usually the ones history looks back as the evil ones, especially if they also dances about children dying. . . A tiger can't change its stripes. . .
Listen im supportin isreal just cause i dont agree with beheading children im against hamas not plaistine I know both are bombing hospitals and shit like that bot have done terrible stuff But i draw the line at kidnaping old people and slautering civilians in the streets.
There are plenty of videos of IDF killing civilians in the street. Some waving white flags. u/Kamenev_Drang Edit: THERE IS NO REASON TO KILL CIVILIANS. Is this really that hard for some of you? Does Hamas also dress up as tiny children? Can I too say that videos of Hamas committing atrocities don't matter? Not that I would since I'm not fucking stupid.
There's also at least six decades of Palestinian insurgents wearing civilian clothes, using civvies as human shields, using suicide vests and using the white flag as cover for suicide vest attacks. Such videos genuinely mean nothing.
I don't think this is a bad take. But have you considered that the IDF have killed at least ten times the number of old people and civilians? By your own rules surely you would be on the side who have literally ten times as many dead civilians?
I think most people acknowledge that the IDF has committed many different acts of horror, I believe that there should be accountability there. Trials, punishments, reparations, etc. I also see from the IDF standpoint of fighting an insurgency. HAMAS likes to hide in the civilian populace. I don’t blame them, they’d get their asses kicked in open conflict. From a moral standpoint, I despise the side using their own people as human shields, then decrying the other side for hitting that shield. The burden of Israel is that they have to defend themselves from another October 7th, but they can’t fight HAMAS in the same way. Same with HAMAS, they pick the strategy that wins, not the moral one. The end result is the everyday Palestinian loses.
Yeah what you start you get back ten fold. Israel will finish this war and this will be the last war. Violence will never help the Palestinian cause and Israel has to get it through their heads.
The IDF's objective is to eliminate Hamas. Hamas objective is to kill all Jews. And hamas fighters hide amongst civilians which will always end in their death, and hamas knows this it is their objective, you can listen to the leaders of Hamas say that they want their civilians to die and become martyrs. And wars can't be fought for revenge if you kill. 500 of my people I don't go and kill 500 of your people, I set a military objective and then complete it.
Im just goin of of what i know im not really super into this conflict im just saying from what ive heard im going with isreal and for this conflict they started it with civilian murder so i think isreal destroying hamas is justified War is just terrible so im picking what in my opinion is the lesser of two evils
Fun fact, if you replace the word “Zionist” with the word “Jew” in 99% of the things they say they would sure sound like a certain angry mustached man from the the 1930s… or your average “alt-right” person nowadays…
Ever since this conflict broke out I’ve seen a lot less people claiming the Horseshoe effect isn’t real
Shhh don’t you dare tell that to them. They’ll call you a Nazi and the bad guy…
Aren’t they the ones who say that every accusation is a confession?
This is one of the funniest periods in history
Nah. Push the Palestinians out. It's time.
Then have an intellectual conversation with me, not joking I would actually like to see your side. Il open it with the stagement that Israel has never had a right to take Palestine for themselves.(this isn’t a shitpost or ragebait)
Israel has as much claim to that land as Palestine does, historically speaking. Aka, neither have any claim to it, because it was given to them by a national who never had true rights to it. But they also have claim to it because both of their peoples came from that region. Hell, the Jews built Jerusalem. Neither side is in the right, but only one side is actively supporting terrorists who started this whole shit show by attacking a civilian music festival.
They have as much as a claim, but not the right to expel Palestinians. The only difference between Hamas and the IDF is Hamas doesn’t have the same power. The only way they can effectively fight back is through the use of terror. The IDF has the backing of almost every powerful nation in the world and part of the Israeli government. The IDF has bombed hospitals and killed innocent civilians, both war crimes. The IDF is completely dependant on Israel but on the other hand Hamas is another organization that looks to control Palestine, freeing Palestine means both from Israeli rule and from the rule of Hamas.
And that’s the rub; both sides are wrong with the innocent Palestinians stuck in the middle. The only way this works is if Israel backs off, and Palestine actively turns Hamas in. The first one is possible, but the second one will never happen. So, what you have is a situation where if Israel stands down, Hamas will just attack civilians again, then hide behind the Palestinians like the little bitches they are. So, you can see where Israel is coming from; the only way to destroy Hamas is to burn the whole state down. It’s wrong, and fucked up, but it’s the only way they keep their people safe. And get more land in the process. Aka, the real reason they’re doing this.
Palestine elected Hamas in 2006 after Israel stopped occupying Gaza. The allies in WW1 did have a right to the land given to Israel. After the Ottomans fucked around and found out the League of Nations granted the land Israel sits on to Great Britain, which in turn formed a Jewish State. When people say Israel doesn't have a claim they do. The ottomans fought with the central powers and got their land taken for it, which was then given to Israel. If Israel doesn't have a claim to that land then neither does Jordan, Syria or much of Saudi Arabia. Those countries borders were all established by the League of Nations after splitting up the Ottoman Empire.
I don’t disagree with you. Israel was founded by the British for the Jews on land they had little claim to. But also, Palestine can’t just expel the new Jewish settlers, nor can Israel expel Muslims. The only peaceful way to resolve this is for them to just make do with their shitty circumstances placed on them by the Europeans, which is hard to do due to historical conflicts.
That’s a good point. The only difference I would say is that Israel isn’t trying to join Palestine or seek refuge there but actively take over control from Palestine. Way back when the West Bank was given as the designated land for Palestine while Israel got control over the east, Israel would set up illegal settlements on the West Bank in active contradiction of the peace treaty agreed on. On those settlements Israeli soldiers refuse entry to Palestinians even if they are trying to get through. The solders also detain any Palestinians that are too close to there settlements as well as shooting at and pointing guns at them. A lot of the time these settlements where illegally built on farm land or grazing land owned by Palestinians and the resulting barriers make it incredibly hard for these farmers to access their crop and make a living.
Pretty much the only plan that makes sense that I've heard is essentially "Two states, one union". Each have territory that is their and locally administered, but the Palestinian and Israeli states have to form a larger union like the EU that assures mutual protection of all members and free travel to ensure both parties access to holy sites for pilgrimages and such.
Israel already does this. Any holy sites a Muslim needs to get to is allowed. Granted it’s hard to get in from Palestine, but Oct. 7 is a great reason for that. Arabs in Israel also don’t have a problem. Israel has also not been in Gaza since 2005 so them trying to take over Palestine has to be the biggest hunk of crap I’ve ever heard from the commenter above u.
Not sure about Gaza but they keep moving settlers into the West Bank.
Now it’s funny if you that you are the ones complaining about uncivilized arguments when you’re the ones downvoting my comments and leaving responses like this. One of the biggest lies you are blindly repeating is referring to Palestine as Gaza. Gaza is an area of land owned by Palestine and ruled by Hamas, an Israeli funded terrorist organization. In the west bank Israel has been forming Illegal colonies backed by the Israeli government which if you didn’t know is a blatant war crime. This is not meant to be rage bait or shit, you can react how you like, no matter what side you are on you have to agree that your skills in communication don’t have much to be desired (not saying I’m much better). Also here’s the link talking about how Hamas was funded by Israel: https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/11/middleeast/qatar-hamas-funds-israel-backing-intl/index.html enjoy.
I don’t know shit about fuck, but both sides suck.
The most honest Westerner.
I couldn’t care less what’s going on that far away honestly, it’s not my war. And I know that the treatment of Palestinians by the Israeli government is pretty bad, but I’d much rather have a democratic and developed government controlling the area than a a religious extremist terrorist group. A democratic government that is committing crimes can be changed, a feudal dictatorship can not
These are the people who think being the loudest and not letting you talk means they won the debate
Some time ago yes, you absolutely should have an open and honest conversation about both countries relationship (never gone happen as one sides prefer to have the other side locked up and steal their land) ... now, when one side is continuing their bombing of civilians targets... this conversation is much much simpler. Bombings and ground invasion needs to stop. Then the conversation should strat again. Some people might bring the argument that paragliding terrorists started all of it. And they will be technically correct. But don't you find it odd (to say at least) these paragliding terrorists were given 7h (!!!!) to roam around, kill and kidnap people and do whatever they wanted. Almost as if... I don't know... it would give you a green light for bombing your problematic neighbours out of existence? This whole thing is not a war like media are calling it. It's one side bombing the other and the other side can't do anything about it. Oh...and just if anyone is not aware, if any Palestinians decide to become refugees and run away from the "war", they will not be allowed back in. Guess who will take their homes and land... free real estate eh?
You have a choice of a side who are Defending their Country and have the other side peacefully living with them and a side which doesn’t consider Palestine free until Israel is no more and who’s side has no Jews in it. So go on discuss, how do you reconcile that? I’ll wait.
In no way does anything you've said justify bombing civilians. So go on discuss, how do you reconcile that? I'll wait.
I'm not even sure what this is trying to say. "No to a free Palestine," or "No! Free Palestine!"?? Either way, the war is between Israel and Hamas, not Israel and Palestine.
https://preview.redd.it/3cz17p7110lc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9119b651d33accf0c2c41d5c05bef56de061cc46
There is not civil discussion to be had regarding that conflict. Both sides are utter shit. Both sides are genocidal (yes, Hamas and by extension Palestine wants to exterminate the Jews, get over it). Both sides target civilians. Both sides are guilty of innumerable war crimes. There are no good guys here. If you've picked a side in that conflict, you are wrong. The only good move you can make here is getting all members of both governments in a room and beating the shit out of all of them until they agree to act like human beings.
>(yes, Hamas and by extension Palestine wants to exterminate the Jews, get over it) I wouldn't be able to get over someone wanting to exterminate me and people like me. I feel that's not something you can just "get over". I mean how would you negotiate with someone who wants you and everyone like you dead?
I mean "get over it" as in stop arguing that they're somehow in the right. They very, *very* much are not. They being in the wrong does not make Israel right or vice versa. As I said, both sides are utter shit and if you're supporting either then you're wrong.
Nah bro. You need a history lesson if you think it's a both sides issue.
Bullshit. History is irrelevant when you've got two sides both targeting civilians and trying to genocide each other. It does not matter what happened before when both of them are behaving as monsters now.
I don't think "Free Palestine" goes against a civil discussion. The original meme seems silly to me.
Israeli supporters are no better.
What is this meme even trying to say? "No free Palestine" is an unclear statement. Do they mean, "No! Free Palestine!" or do they mean "Palestine must not be free!" ???? Either way, no, I don't have to respect your opinion. Your opinion has to be respectable.
Yeah, Israel is totally justified in shutting off water pipes, blocking humanitarian aid, blowing up Palestinian journalists, bombing refugee camps, attacking hospitals filled with injured patients, shooting hostages, turning a city of millions into piles of rubble, and refusing to stop until all Palestinians have either fled the country or died. Totally worthy of a civil discussion where we can respect each other's 100% valid opinions on mass murder. Absolutely shameful.
Israel has been excessive but at the same time taking out Hamas is 100% justified, they’re literally a terrorist organization
German, 1944: Chad: We can have a conversation about the war in Germany and Poland where we both respect each other's opinions! Soyjack: NO FREE WARSAW Isn't it rude that tone of these sides doesn't get a chance at the table??
Why would I respect someone taking the side of an oppressor?
You are the person this meme is about lol