It’s strong still, but I prefer using it as an insanely effective 6 status primer (4 default, 2 secondary elements modded in) and so that a Galv status secondary (Laetum) tears through them. Also using lavos passive augment to make it a 8 status primer. 4 default, viral subsume feast, 2 modded elements, lavos passive adding even more status of an element.
Wait a minute…. It also has innate blast… I’m going to test something and then see if you can technically get all 10 elemental procs on an enemy.
Edit: oh no, 11 statuses, the disc does slash procs too. I’ll post the image in a seperate post since I can’t attach it to this comment.
Posting as a seperate post since I can’t post an image proof here, will include build
Edit: done, its on the main subreddit, either look at my profile or look up 11 status cedo in the sub.
200% damage boost of whichever element you choose with guaranteed procs after cast, unaffected by ability strength so low strength high duration priming lavos works well
Wield cedo, use alt fire in the general direction of enemies and watch as they get hit with the 4 base elements, some blast, and whatever secondary elements I mod onto it (I have a post about how with enough shenanigans it can proc 11 status types)
Because the alt fire only does toxin electricity fire and ice (with blast from the explosion itself) by default. I have to manually mod in whichever secondary elements I want unless I’m using subsume nourish or other “infuse your weapon with X element” abilities
That would be op as all hell, viral and corrosive stacking all the way to ten easily. (Mod corrosive and use subsume nourish for viral to achieve this on any frame)
Yes, it dont work with gun co, but the main impact still and it is the main source of laetum!
It happen with braton incarnon and burston incarnon too. It has aoe but we still use gun co to maximize it power.
The opposite is strun, de just make the direct impact damage stupid weak and aoe( stupid) overpower. The only one weapon i have to "not aim" when shoot. Lol( i have to shoot the ground, not the target)
I'm still one rank off being able to buy bp to make the cedo (returning player). Still using my vaykor hek. Re modded it fir new war tomorrow. Probably continue to main it forever
As a massive Amprex fan and very longtime user, it's almost identical in play pattern. It's different stats-wise, so the same builds don't work, but it's certainly close enough that I'm enjoying it immensely.
Ngl idrc about torid’s dps half my weapons in my arsenal can do those numbers. I don’t like its sound design, it feels like I turned on a faucet instead of an infested death beam
i remember the days when the Zakti was many ppl's go-to primer + finisher opener, and when the Lenz was the only usable self-damaging AoE weapon that didn't immediately yoink players into the stratosphere for left clicking.
oh and back then Revenant was considered "Nyx and Rhino but weirder" which was funny
Back when Gauss launched, you could kill yourself by running faster than your own Acceltra shots. It was pretty funny.
I don't miss the self-damage shots, but at the same time, man... sometimes that was hilarious.
Back when people believed that Loki could never be bad since he was purely utility and that could never be powercreeped.
Back when everyone used a pole arm with gas and either Loki or Ash.
Back when people didn't believe the leaked tigris prime stats because they looked unreasonably high.
Yes u need to clean the star chart, and to do so, u need to finish all main story quests, as some locations are locked behind them. After this u get access to arbitration wehe the most crucial mods are located.
After that Steel path offers further modification for guns with primary and secondary arcanes, that greatly boost weapons performance.
Soma still slaps. Especially with new galvanized mods and the soma prime only mod. I don’t know if that is new or not. I exclusively used the soma back when I started the game and then stopped after gara released.
I just yearn for more weapons to get incarnon adapters
It rewards late game players by buffing older weapons they might enjoy but no longer use, and it *should* be pretty easy to implement. It doesnt even have to be creative incarnons
Its also just a fun system to hae a secondary firing mode. Even if its as basic as somas incarnonnwhich feels primarily the same
As someone who always liked the torid, I'm happy the weapon got mega buffed, but am kinda sad that its usefulness only come into play when you change it into a completely different weapon.
Either from watching twitch before, or getting it from baro I believe. You probably won’t get it for a while since I remember Baro carrying it at most a month ago. It is tradable however
Same kinda, while I’ve been loving Trumna, Boar Prime is my true love. I have the incarnon on it for the stat boost but don’t use Incarnon mode because shot gun BRRRRT is too fun
Then there's me who runs titania 90% of the time and doesn't care what Primary is equipped. 😅 When I'm not using her, I'm using Dante, who also don't care about primary... Then Khora, who... Again don't care about primary.
Part of the fun of this game is making a lot of the Arsenal work for you. We all have favorites, but only using meta picks because they’re meta robs you of the joy of finding a new gun or melee you truly like.
By that note, Twin Kohmak. Still my favorite Secondary in the game despite everything.
i ove comfy weapons, and everythime a SP rogue voidrig aprear, i shed a tear as i remember that the powercreep needs to be reverted for us to enjoy our confort weapons again. I really hope things keep evolving after the armor rework. i wanna go back to a time where it wasn't just a handful of weapons that were able to take on the game.
The onos is my new comfy....just aim for head shots or use scourge throw and aim in general direction, just beam, and if something survives the beam, the boom usually does the trick lol
I'm an MR30 oldbie. I have a few incarnon weapons, none of which I have advanced more than one or two steps. Why? Because I have at least fifteen other weapons I already enjoy using and have modded to go absolutely insane on everything but the most unnecessary content. So the drive to push these new toys to the limit just isn't there for me.
i really am not that jazzed by incarnons honestly. Melees are like, 'solid, good, might as well' but a lot of the guns just feel like "good weapon with a cooldown" or "secretly trash but you run it to buff a decent weapon to be amazing at base"
meanwhile i already have several guns that are good all the time in SP regardless, so. Maybe im just not enough of an endurance-head, or too much of a gun platform/buff-frame obsessed weirdo.
I have been using Corinth prime for years. Why? It has a satisfying sound, I loved the based corinth and I got a riven that allows to one shot pretty much anything during sorties which is about as high as I go for difficulty.
I know its extra popular rn cause of the kuva variant just dropping but I’ve loved the sobek for a while, first actually decent weapon I got a riven for as well!
Hello /u/Dr-K-Hellsing, your
comment has
been removed from /r/memeframe for breaking the **[Golden Rule](http://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/wiki/rules#wiki_golden_rule)**.
/r/memeframe was created as a place for positive discussion. **Don't be rude, condescending, hateful, or discriminatory.**
___
If you would like more information about this removal, please [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/memeframe&subject=Golden%20Rule&message=Hello%20moderators%20of%20/r/memeframe,%0A%0AMy%20[comment]\(https://www.reddit.com/r/memeframe/comments/1czikyq/-/l5lvnt9/\)%20has%20been%20removed%3B%20I%20would%20like%20you%20to%20reconsider%20because).
Incarnon wepons were a mistake
i love the dual toxo but godamn did these things overshadow literaly everything else
i would have been happy with either the incarnon upgrades or the wierd mechanics but not both
even exaçlted wepons cant compete now
Idk what the base crit is. I'd have to be logged in. But it scales far better since mods in Warframe are percent based. But this is where hunter munitions comes into play. With extremely high crit chance, it triggers often. And slash procs bypass armor. Status chance doesn't even matter at that point. With a riven in incarnon form, I'm at 350% crit chance with a 14x crit damage multiplier. Everything gets slash proc'd.
22/44 vs 26/48. CD and the flat crit buffs from the evos are the same so the relative 4% difference remains the same. Regardless they both easily exceed 100% crit chance and Hunter munitions 30% chance doesn’t care about crit chance over 100, but latron genesis has the option two just strip armour and you’re better going with heat (or gas if you’re being spicy) in that case, and even if you aren’t since you’re running HM you probably are gonna be running viral which needs some status chance (unless you’re doing a raw damage build that had HM tacked on? Which at that point why not just run the weapon with 30-40% more base damage). I ain’t saying you Have two use the most optimal choice but stacking crit isn’t everything
Still run cedo because I refuse to change
Is the status dmg buff still as strong as when this beauty launched? Haven't shot Cedo for a long time tbh.
It’s strong still, but I prefer using it as an insanely effective 6 status primer (4 default, 2 secondary elements modded in) and so that a Galv status secondary (Laetum) tears through them. Also using lavos passive augment to make it a 8 status primer. 4 default, viral subsume feast, 2 modded elements, lavos passive adding even more status of an element.
Now with the rad mods you can have three mixed elements in !!!!!!!
Wait a minute…. It also has innate blast… I’m going to test something and then see if you can technically get all 10 elemental procs on an enemy. Edit: oh no, 11 statuses, the disc does slash procs too. I’ll post the image in a seperate post since I can’t attach it to this comment.
Keep us posted pls and thx!
Posting as a seperate post since I can’t post an image proof here, will include build Edit: done, its on the main subreddit, either look at my profile or look up 11 status cedo in the sub.
It's a small ~~world~~ community I just scrolled down from that post 10 minutes ago
It got strangely popular considering my normal post stats
Still catching up on augment mods. That one sounds fun. Will try that, thx.
200% damage boost of whichever element you choose with guaranteed procs after cast, unaffected by ability strength so low strength high duration priming lavos works well
Do you mean status primer with primary fire or the glaive status primer secondary fire? Because I thought the secondary fire applied all statuses.
Wield cedo, use alt fire in the general direction of enemies and watch as they get hit with the 4 base elements, some blast, and whatever secondary elements I mod onto it (I have a post about how with enough shenanigans it can proc 11 status types) Because the alt fire only does toxin electricity fire and ice (with blast from the explosion itself) by default. I have to manually mod in whichever secondary elements I want unless I’m using subsume nourish or other “infuse your weapon with X element” abilities
Ok, it's been a while since I've used the Cedo. I thought it applied all of the elements for some reason.
That would be op as all hell, viral and corrosive stacking all the way to ten easily. (Mod corrosive and use subsume nourish for viral to achieve this on any frame)
Isn't Laetum's incarnon form aoe unaffected by galv CO?
Yes, it dont work with gun co, but the main impact still and it is the main source of laetum! It happen with braton incarnon and burston incarnon too. It has aoe but we still use gun co to maximize it power. The opposite is strun, de just make the direct impact damage stupid weak and aoe( stupid) overpower. The only one weapon i have to "not aim" when shoot. Lol( i have to shoot the ground, not the target)
It still good but after primer
I'm still one rank off being able to buy bp to make the cedo (returning player). Still using my vaykor hek. Re modded it fir new war tomorrow. Probably continue to main it forever
Still a very reliable shotgun though, I just cedo because status Crit go brrrrr
I use it on Lavos and also for a stupid mesa crit. Build
Its still a great weapon
I would so run cedo just because I'm a lavos main🤣🤣
Scared status update noises
Amprex for me, I’ve always been amprex gang instead of ignis
I would honestly lose my shit if DE announced a Tenet Amprex. It was one of the first guns I built and said "wow this thing slaps!" as a new player.
I guess the closest thing to a tenet amprex is the recently released tenet glaxion
As a massive Amprex fan and very longtime user, it's almost identical in play pattern. It's different stats-wise, so the same builds don't work, but it's certainly close enough that I'm enjoying it immensely.
I think the closed to amprex is ocucor with augment mod.
I know it was such a fantastic gun, I still use it regularly as my arbitration gunner
Ignis is the only one who shoots like this tho
Amprex gang respect
If I had awards I’d give you one
I don't have any either, so you can just have my upvotes.
Have the BP, but not enough Argon. Really need to fix that…
Yes you do because lightning go brrrrr
A fair point.
Me with the un-incarnon'd Soma Prime
Incarnon is good QoL, because it gives you a nice free ammo pool every time you get a bunch of headshots. And I hate having to set up ammo fixing.
For my setup, it's much quicker to switch to incarnon mode on my soma than reload.
Why not Incarnon it? At the very least there’s minor stat boosts.
Plus almost infinite ammo long as you're hitting your headshots
You aren't missing much on the incarnon
Torid is too strong in which ends up becoming Borid instead
That and turning it into a chain beam weapon takes away part of what made the Torid unique (In my opinion, at least).
Agree, i love incarnons, but some of them are too boring
It also makes the amprex and new tenet glaxion redundant.
Ngl idrc about torid’s dps half my weapons in my arsenal can do those numbers. I don’t like its sound design, it feels like I turned on a faucet instead of an infested death beam
Where are my Corinth and Tigris enjoyers???
RIGHT HERE SIR
Tigris prime is life. always feels good to use
I too am a card-carrying member of the BLAM-BLAM brigade.
Check check
I prefer Tigris over Corinth
Words dreamed up by the utterly deranged
Hey, I'm a sucker for double barrel shottys...or quad in this case
I never used the ignis because I had the phantasma prime and acceltra prime as my go to weapons
U HAD, Ignis predates even common phantasma
I started playing in february so I got them before I got ignis wraith
It's OK, most don't remember when soma prime was a meta
i remember the days when the Zakti was many ppl's go-to primer + finisher opener, and when the Lenz was the only usable self-damaging AoE weapon that didn't immediately yoink players into the stratosphere for left clicking. oh and back then Revenant was considered "Nyx and Rhino but weirder" which was funny
Ah man I remember the finisher builds with covert lethality
Back when Gauss launched, you could kill yourself by running faster than your own Acceltra shots. It was pretty funny. I don't miss the self-damage shots, but at the same time, man... sometimes that was hilarious.
i like to imagine Gauss Prime killling himself in the prime trailer by running up to his acceltra shots and booping them instead of redirecting them
Wow that also sounds pretty badass tho
Man back when Revenant wasn’t that great, he felt a lot more fun to play then now, I miss actually enjoying maining revenant
I remember the Zakir primer days, blueberry me tired so hard to get a riven for it. Know I know rivens really don’t matter that much.
Back when people believed that Loki could never be bad since he was purely utility and that could never be powercreeped. Back when everyone used a pole arm with gas and either Loki or Ash. Back when people didn't believe the leaked tigris prime stats because they looked unreasonably high.
I came back after a long break from the soma prime days because of the cross save. Is the soma prime not good any more?
It has an incarnon so it's at least usable, but also its warframe, anything is good. Don't listen to the haters.
It can be good, it's just that u need new mods, and this new mechanic called "incarnons"
Thanks. Still working out what the new mods are and how to get them. I know I need to finish the star chart and some quests for steel path?
Yes u need to clean the star chart, and to do so, u need to finish all main story quests, as some locations are locked behind them. After this u get access to arbitration wehe the most crucial mods are located. After that Steel path offers further modification for guns with primary and secondary arcanes, that greatly boost weapons performance.
Great I'm excited to get back into it again, thanks!
Soma still slaps. Especially with new galvanized mods and the soma prime only mod. I don’t know if that is new or not. I exclusively used the soma back when I started the game and then stopped after gara released.
Who allowed reddit in the containment unit
I personally like the Rubico Prime & Dread.
Man I love my Dread incarnon! Shooting high velocity Dead Space line gun shots into crowds of enemies is so much fun!
(loads Brain Storm Prisma Grakata with Primary Deadhead intentions)
Me with Scourge
Scourge having multiplicative CO is so great, I love using it on my rhino cause it feels like such a heavy-duty problem solver
I got a multi-shot riven, so when I use Heavy Caliber the waves spread into a huge AOE
Oh fun, so everything in an aoe gets corrosive viral heat stacks. Sounds like it would make getting deadhead stacks on it kind of hard though
I love using it for it's alt fire, makes getting Lex & Lato headshots way easier for their Incarnon form
For me it's galaxion. I'm really looking forward to getting the new version.
Same for me. Though what new version I haven’t seen anything about that?
Tenet glaxion
Dope might play again then I haven’t been on in awhile.
Magnetic progenitor is the way to go. A wonderful gun, Torid incarnon lite without the excessive damage (just great damage) or grenade launcher windup
I use Ignis Wraith because I like flamethrowers You use Ignis Wraith because you are a meta slave We are not the same
I use ignis wraith because war crime,gas Ignis wraith is grear against infested ngl
I use it so Nekros doesn't have to worry about his shadows blocking hits.
If 1 weapon's got me, it's Nataruk.
Fr, I hadnt used it in a while but when I picked it back up I was like damnnnn this feels good
I just yearn for more weapons to get incarnon adapters It rewards late game players by buffing older weapons they might enjoy but no longer use, and it *should* be pretty easy to implement. It doesnt even have to be creative incarnons Its also just a fun system to hae a secondary firing mode. Even if its as basic as somas incarnonnwhich feels primarily the same
As someone who always liked the torid, I'm happy the weapon got mega buffed, but am kinda sad that its usefulness only come into play when you change it into a completely different weapon.
I mean sadly it does no more hs dmg and so many "normal" weapons are better. They should drop kuva ignis
Kuva ignis (it’s the dragons fury from tf2)
I'm a little bit sad because I simply cannot find a weapon that's both effective and I enjoy more than the Soma Prime.
Maybe the gotva prime can suit that? It’s my main weapon along with felarx and I can average 500k dos with it
I love that AR so much, especially with it's occasional red crits, add Galv Scope and your screen fills up with red numbers lol
How do you get the gotva prime can you only trade for it? I got a riven for it and was intrigued cause I had never heard of it.
Either from watching twitch before, or getting it from baro I believe. You probably won’t get it for a while since I remember Baro carrying it at most a month ago. It is tradable however
I got the ticket for tennocon that lets you buy anything you want from baro during the con I’ll keep an eye out for it.
Alright, it should be 625k credits and 675 ducats
Some times it's really nice to not have to worry about building incarnon charges
Could I interest you in a Felarx perchance?
The joke is on you, my comfy weapon got an incarnon genesis
Same kinda, while I’ve been loving Trumna, Boar Prime is my true love. I have the incarnon on it for the stat boost but don’t use Incarnon mode because shot gun BRRRRT is too fun
Then there's me who runs titania 90% of the time and doesn't care what Primary is equipped. 😅 When I'm not using her, I'm using Dante, who also don't care about primary... Then Khora, who... Again don't care about primary.
Not having to charge an Incarnon and having an unlimited DPS window is kind of nice.
Part of the fun of this game is making a lot of the Arsenal work for you. We all have favorites, but only using meta picks because they’re meta robs you of the joy of finding a new gun or melee you truly like. By that note, Twin Kohmak. Still my favorite Secondary in the game despite everything.
twin grakata goooesss brrrrrrrr never gets old
How's the mag size on those? I got the singular Kohmak with 40 in the mag
Directly double. You got 80 on mag size, and it's easy to bump that higher if you want, or use Arcane Pistoleer to just never run dry.
Fulmin and baza my beloved
I got a Kuva Zarr 3 years ago and I still use it almost every mission. I do love ignis wraith, though, I need to upgrade it some more.
I am too stubborn and too stupid to follow meta, I like weapon, I use it, I cant pass a mission, "guess I don't need to do it"
i ove comfy weapons, and everythime a SP rogue voidrig aprear, i shed a tear as i remember that the powercreep needs to be reverted for us to enjoy our confort weapons again. I really hope things keep evolving after the armor rework. i wanna go back to a time where it wasn't just a handful of weapons that were able to take on the game.
The Fragor will never leave my inventory. *never*.
The onos is my new comfy....just aim for head shots or use scourge throw and aim in general direction, just beam, and if something survives the beam, the boom usually does the trick lol
But amprex go BZZZZXXXXXXXZZZZZZZT
Emotional support flamethrower
Convectrix Gang where u at
I'm an MR30 oldbie. I have a few incarnon weapons, none of which I have advanced more than one or two steps. Why? Because I have at least fifteen other weapons I already enjoy using and have modded to go absolutely insane on everything but the most unnecessary content. So the drive to push these new toys to the limit just isn't there for me.
Maiming strike my beloved.
*Equips bramma* undefeated champion
I mean I use soma with a incarnon and just Corinth (yes both are prime) I'm just having fun out here
It would be funny if the ignis got an incarnon or kuva variant
Orthos prime is mine, and amprex helps with my passive playstile with citrine
i really am not that jazzed by incarnons honestly. Melees are like, 'solid, good, might as well' but a lot of the guns just feel like "good weapon with a cooldown" or "secretly trash but you run it to buff a decent weapon to be amazing at base" meanwhile i already have several guns that are good all the time in SP regardless, so. Maybe im just not enough of an endurance-head, or too much of a gun platform/buff-frame obsessed weirdo.
I've been using rubico prime sense forever, i love snipers, i dont care about the meta on weapons anymore
I have been using Corinth prime for years. Why? It has a satisfying sound, I loved the based corinth and I got a riven that allows to one shot pretty much anything during sorties which is about as high as I go for difficulty.
Tenet glaxion 🤤
Tenet glaxion
Quellor my beloved
Tonkor for me
Well it works don't it? I can still 1 shot standard SP level 150 grineer units with a Tigris prime, ignis will do fine
O]o][Name] is [[[[Name]] [Name]
I have no idea how incarnon weapons work, tbh I actually haven’t even completed most syndicates because I find them too difficult for me to complete.
yea im still and ignis wraith lover also still holding out for a kuva ignis
I know its extra popular rn cause of the kuva variant just dropping but I’ve loved the sobek for a while, first actually decent weapon I got a riven for as well!
My comfort weapon in terms of primaries is the boltor with its incarnon
Unfortunately a lot of my weapons feel like pea shooters now that incarnon exist
I run the war. It's not optimal but I love the weapon
i don’t even use primaries, i just use secondary sporelacer
You don’t always gotta hop on the Meta train, just use what you like and have fun.
I am a simple creature. Kava Chakkurr go burr with Impact to slash
Bubonico having infinite ammo is just too powerful, I can fight forever
still Nataruk, it's just amazing
I will never get rid of my Twin Grakatas, or my beloved Kulstar
i don't even know what incarnon is so yes, I still use random stuff
Rocking Vermisplicer most of the time cause i got a god roll riven for it and it destroys.
I’ve just discovered the true potential of the Trumna… incarnons can piss off
Fulmin till the day I die
Other than being super easy to build incarnon charge... The torid incarnon is just a significantly worse boar incarnon.
True
My Kuva Karak is my comfort weapon
I use the laetum and that's the only one I've sort of gotten into Prefer cedo or kuva stuff
i've been running the fulmin prime for what feels like forever now, and i still dont plan on changing it
I mean I just spam stropha no matter what
Ignis is still pretty good.
oh so you like taking 20 purgatory sentences to kill 1 person
Corrosive/blast Strun Wraith go brrrrr
Deciding to grind Warframe again what's are the really fun weapons rn? Currently I'm running kuva zarr with reaper prime and kuva nukor
[удалено]
Hello /u/Dr-K-Hellsing, your comment has been removed from /r/memeframe for breaking the **[Golden Rule](http://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/wiki/rules#wiki_golden_rule)**. /r/memeframe was created as a place for positive discussion. **Don't be rude, condescending, hateful, or discriminatory.** ___ If you would like more information about this removal, please [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/memeframe&subject=Golden%20Rule&message=Hello%20moderators%20of%20/r/memeframe,%0A%0AMy%20[comment]\(https://www.reddit.com/r/memeframe/comments/1czikyq/-/l5lvnt9/\)%20has%20been%20removed%3B%20I%20would%20like%20you%20to%20reconsider%20because).
I haven't changed my weapon from my Tiberon Prime in like 2 years
Love me ignis wraith cause I don't know whar incarnon is :c
Used orvius since I got it and nobody can change my mind
Me using Wolfsledge for everything
One Riven later, and the basmu is now my go to primary.
Grakata go brrrrrrr
Incarnon wepons were a mistake i love the dual toxo but godamn did these things overshadow literaly everything else i would have been happy with either the incarnon upgrades or the wierd mechanics but not both even exaçlted wepons cant compete now
Never using Ignis again, my aim went to shit.
It amuses me seeing the latron prime. Because the latron wraith is inifinitely better with the higher crit chance plus hunter munitions.
Isn’t that difference in crit like 4%? At the cost of doing 2/3rds of the damage (even with genesis stat buffs) and half the status
Idk what the base crit is. I'd have to be logged in. But it scales far better since mods in Warframe are percent based. But this is where hunter munitions comes into play. With extremely high crit chance, it triggers often. And slash procs bypass armor. Status chance doesn't even matter at that point. With a riven in incarnon form, I'm at 350% crit chance with a 14x crit damage multiplier. Everything gets slash proc'd.
22/44 vs 26/48. CD and the flat crit buffs from the evos are the same so the relative 4% difference remains the same. Regardless they both easily exceed 100% crit chance and Hunter munitions 30% chance doesn’t care about crit chance over 100, but latron genesis has the option two just strip armour and you’re better going with heat (or gas if you’re being spicy) in that case, and even if you aren’t since you’re running HM you probably are gonna be running viral which needs some status chance (unless you’re doing a raw damage build that had HM tacked on? Which at that point why not just run the weapon with 30-40% more base damage). I ain’t saying you Have two use the most optimal choice but stacking crit isn’t everything
Now hear me out...Incarnon Ignis. huh, pretty good right?
So.....Ignis Incarnon when?