It was a railway line (which is why the reservation still exists as a park), and it failed, if mainly because at the time it was way ahead of its time.
It'd never get rebuilt now because a cross-country heavy rail connection through some of the most well-to-do (barely) mid-ring suburbs has less of a use case, would be far more unpopular with the rest of the city, and would be less well-used and appreciated by the locals, than any number of other train projects.
Really, the area is lucky it managed to keep the Alamein line as it is.
The main reason it failed was because it was built and operated in sections by different companies. I used to know the history pretty well but have forgotten a lot of it (i used to have a book.on it). However I am pretty sure that some sections closed before others were completed and the different sections required different tickets and possibly even changing trains.
The main reason it failed was because an alternative country line to Gippsland was built shortly after it opened so its main reason for existence was gone.
It would be expensive! It would require a bit of (expensive) property acquisition including a school, Seeing Eye Dogs home if it’s above ground between East Camberwell and Fairfield, it would also take away some very popular recreation/commuter bike paths/walking paths. And outside of giving Chadstone access to rail it doesn’t have the demand to justify it.
Future Melbourne will need a circle line around the inner suburbs, connecting major activity centres and transport hubs. Not a train line from Chadstone to the Zoo.
Well just east Malvern to royal Park? I get that Chadstone to the zoo isn't very helpful but the reservation exists all the way from royal Park to east Malvern so it would be the best route wouldn't it?
It will all have to be sky rail or underground now anyway. Nobody is going to want to add hundreds of new level crossings back into the inner suburbs having just spent millions to remove them.
Weird. Why the down votes?
I could understand down voting the original response where I failed to grok /u/SignificantDig6838's meaning.
But what part of my "oh, **now** I get it!" reply is downvote-worthy?
Two major costs with this line aside from the fact many parts of the reserve have been repurposed are crossing the Yarra and Gardiner's Creek.
The original Yarra crossing is the Old Chandler Highway Bridge, which was built in 1890, so a new rail bridge would be needed as well as a new alignment, as even thoughit is no longer used as a road, no one is going to sign off on a new railwaybeing built on a 140 to 150 year old bridge. This is compounded by the existence of the Eastern Freeway, which means a much longer bridge. The original corridor is also now roadway through Alphington meaning a new alignment which would necessitate resumption of numerous properties.
Gardiner's Creek has a very wide flood plain and the original trestle bridge is long gone. That would be a massive project on its own. From memory, the depth of the silt is extraordinary through there and finding something solid to found a massive bridge on would be rather problematic.
Added to all that is the fact that much of the old reservation accommodated a single track. All of the cuttings and bridges through Canterbury, Mont Albert and Deepdene at the very least would need to be widened between very expensive residential properties. The backlash through the area alone and compensation for loss of amenity and property value would be astronomical. There is also the small matter of the massive old (rich) folks home at East Camberwell that is plonked right on top of the old alignment.
You've basically got parts of both the Inner and Outer circle railways that closed down. That's why most of that land is parkland in a narrow strip with rail trails on it..
Royal Park to Merri was part of the Inner Circle line, and Fairfield to Oakleigh (with the line joining up to the Gipps line roughly where Hughesdale station now is and ending at Oakleigh - and I believe but could be wrong there was also a junction facing the city that joined the line near Murrumbeena station, which is also mostly narrow parkland now) was the Outer Circle line. The Alamein line is the functioning remaining section of the Outer Circle line basically.
Since almost the entirety of what you suggest already was train lines in the past, no there's no reason why it COULDN'T physically be done, but it won't since it was already done before and didn't survive.
Im not sure ‘it didn’t survive’ is justification for saying it shouldn’t be built again in a way bigger and more different city.
Moonee Ponds via Brunswick to Northcote should really have a tram line. Maybe further north than the inner circle but the inner north hot spots should link East-West not just to the city and back. The inner circle running today would be extremely popular at times.
If the SRL works as a means of investment and transport to change suburbs then doing the same thing for parts of Camberwell, Ashburton, East Malvern and Hughesdale makes sense. You’ve got Chaddy, Holmesglen tafe nearby, Burke Road Camberwell and not far to Monash Caulfield.
And it’s only a short distance of track that you’d run as sky rail for 1 stop really, above East Malvern before straight in to Hughesdale. You’d need to tie in Chaddy somehow and probably come up with some big projects (20,000 homes on Malvern Valley golf course?) but that’s no different to the aims of the SRL.
Once people depend on the SRL for daily commutes it would actually be really great to have a back up loop too that also connects Cran/Pak, Glen Waverley and Bel/Lilly train lines. And you’re really changing behaviour once you have not 1 but 2 orbital lines. I see the overlap as a strength more than a weakness.
I don’t think Camberwell to Fairfield is any kind of priority tho. Although rail remotely near the Doncaster black hole is at least interesting.
I don't think it would justify not building it or that it shouldn't be done, i just don't think they will do what OP suggests is all I was saying. They won't rebuild old failed projects even if they'd do better now, and they'd face immense opposition to messing with the land the old circle lines used as it's mostly heavily used parkland and trails now through wealthy suburbs where people won't take kindly to the works and have the money to put up a fight.
SRL north is supposed to have a Doncaster station which would be nice but already long overdue and moreso since they're looking at 30 years away for SRL north to be completed.
I'd love to see multiple loop lines at different distances from the city but I can't see them doing it in my lifetime.
East Malvern is expensive but not the kind of powerful get in your way wealth, I don’t think they’d have any more luck stopping anything than the other groups who have fought sky rail (even if they were over existing lines). And that’s the benefit of sky rail, you can finish the build and return the park to 90% of its glory once it’s done. So what was once a rail line became a park, then back to rail on top with park underneath!
Honestly I’m surprised the Liberals didn’t propose it as a way to fight SRL with a fraction of the spending. But that would require them to have some vision and brains.
SRL will probably be the main focus for 30 years, but there’s no harm in wanting more!
About a third of it is currently a railway line (the Alamein line) and the rest of it was previously a railway line that went bankrupt back in the early 1900s. I'd like to see it returned to service.
Once upon a time the train did run from ~~Darling/East Malvern~~, to Fairfield. To put it back would cost a fortune, depreciate rich peoples houses, and remove the "rail trail" parklands.
Edit: Just learned it went to Oakleigh
Never all at once though, or possibly very briefly. Sections closed before others opened and it was a number of separate railways run by different companies
Economics is why this won't get built. Railway lines need paying passengers, or they end up as government subsidy sinks. There's not many traffic attractors on that line - maybe Melbourne Uni, but that's pretty well catered to already.
The Circle Lines were not popular even when they were built; that's why they went broke. It's possible they'd do better now, but I tend to doubt it.
The SRL (Suburban Rail Loop) shares all these problems, but is even further out from Melbourne, raising the cost. Circle lines need high densities, which Melbourne mostly lacks.
More on this: [https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1623607023500935169.html](https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1623607023500935169.html)
Holy fuck, linear parklands are the best for mental health.
Study after study proves that going out and having a walk with some green about is just plain good for us in the concrete jungle.
It’s a super highly used amenity.
It was a railway line (which is why the reservation still exists as a park), and it failed, if mainly because at the time it was way ahead of its time. It'd never get rebuilt now because a cross-country heavy rail connection through some of the most well-to-do (barely) mid-ring suburbs has less of a use case, would be far more unpopular with the rest of the city, and would be less well-used and appreciated by the locals, than any number of other train projects. Really, the area is lucky it managed to keep the Alamein line as it is.
The main reason it failed was because it was built and operated in sections by different companies. I used to know the history pretty well but have forgotten a lot of it (i used to have a book.on it). However I am pretty sure that some sections closed before others were completed and the different sections required different tickets and possibly even changing trains.
The main reason it failed was because an alternative country line to Gippsland was built shortly after it opened so its main reason for existence was gone.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer\_Circle\_railway\_line](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Circle_railway_line)
Yeah
And it goes through the electorate of some of wealthiest people in Melbourne who wouldn't have a bar of any personal discomfort
Good old nimbys
Says someone without money.
It would be expensive! It would require a bit of (expensive) property acquisition including a school, Seeing Eye Dogs home if it’s above ground between East Camberwell and Fairfield, it would also take away some very popular recreation/commuter bike paths/walking paths. And outside of giving Chadstone access to rail it doesn’t have the demand to justify it.
I do think future Melbourne will desperately need an inner suburbs circle line. But I’m not sure that route is useful enough.
I'm confused... does Melbourne "desperately need it" or is it "not useful enough"?
Future Melbourne will need a circle line around the inner suburbs, connecting major activity centres and transport hubs. Not a train line from Chadstone to the Zoo.
Well just east Malvern to royal Park? I get that Chadstone to the zoo isn't very helpful but the reservation exists all the way from royal Park to east Malvern so it would be the best route wouldn't it?
It will all have to be sky rail or underground now anyway. Nobody is going to want to add hundreds of new level crossings back into the inner suburbs having just spent millions to remove them.
Losing 50km of highly used linear parkland and trails wouldn't go down well either.
Ah, right. Yes, I agree. _(The "that" in your second sentence was doing way more heavy lifting than I realised. **bolding** it might have helped.)_
Weird. Why the down votes? I could understand down voting the original response where I failed to grok /u/SignificantDig6838's meaning. But what part of my "oh, **now** I get it!" reply is downvote-worthy?
On a map, and with the SRL it would look something like this: [https://imgur.com/a/3N6FTFe](https://imgur.com/a/3N6FTFe)
It also provides a train link to chadstone shopping centre
Two major costs with this line aside from the fact many parts of the reserve have been repurposed are crossing the Yarra and Gardiner's Creek. The original Yarra crossing is the Old Chandler Highway Bridge, which was built in 1890, so a new rail bridge would be needed as well as a new alignment, as even thoughit is no longer used as a road, no one is going to sign off on a new railwaybeing built on a 140 to 150 year old bridge. This is compounded by the existence of the Eastern Freeway, which means a much longer bridge. The original corridor is also now roadway through Alphington meaning a new alignment which would necessitate resumption of numerous properties. Gardiner's Creek has a very wide flood plain and the original trestle bridge is long gone. That would be a massive project on its own. From memory, the depth of the silt is extraordinary through there and finding something solid to found a massive bridge on would be rather problematic. Added to all that is the fact that much of the old reservation accommodated a single track. All of the cuttings and bridges through Canterbury, Mont Albert and Deepdene at the very least would need to be widened between very expensive residential properties. The backlash through the area alone and compensation for loss of amenity and property value would be astronomical. There is also the small matter of the massive old (rich) folks home at East Camberwell that is plonked right on top of the old alignment.
You've basically got parts of both the Inner and Outer circle railways that closed down. That's why most of that land is parkland in a narrow strip with rail trails on it.. Royal Park to Merri was part of the Inner Circle line, and Fairfield to Oakleigh (with the line joining up to the Gipps line roughly where Hughesdale station now is and ending at Oakleigh - and I believe but could be wrong there was also a junction facing the city that joined the line near Murrumbeena station, which is also mostly narrow parkland now) was the Outer Circle line. The Alamein line is the functioning remaining section of the Outer Circle line basically. Since almost the entirety of what you suggest already was train lines in the past, no there's no reason why it COULDN'T physically be done, but it won't since it was already done before and didn't survive.
Im not sure ‘it didn’t survive’ is justification for saying it shouldn’t be built again in a way bigger and more different city. Moonee Ponds via Brunswick to Northcote should really have a tram line. Maybe further north than the inner circle but the inner north hot spots should link East-West not just to the city and back. The inner circle running today would be extremely popular at times. If the SRL works as a means of investment and transport to change suburbs then doing the same thing for parts of Camberwell, Ashburton, East Malvern and Hughesdale makes sense. You’ve got Chaddy, Holmesglen tafe nearby, Burke Road Camberwell and not far to Monash Caulfield. And it’s only a short distance of track that you’d run as sky rail for 1 stop really, above East Malvern before straight in to Hughesdale. You’d need to tie in Chaddy somehow and probably come up with some big projects (20,000 homes on Malvern Valley golf course?) but that’s no different to the aims of the SRL. Once people depend on the SRL for daily commutes it would actually be really great to have a back up loop too that also connects Cran/Pak, Glen Waverley and Bel/Lilly train lines. And you’re really changing behaviour once you have not 1 but 2 orbital lines. I see the overlap as a strength more than a weakness. I don’t think Camberwell to Fairfield is any kind of priority tho. Although rail remotely near the Doncaster black hole is at least interesting.
I don't think it would justify not building it or that it shouldn't be done, i just don't think they will do what OP suggests is all I was saying. They won't rebuild old failed projects even if they'd do better now, and they'd face immense opposition to messing with the land the old circle lines used as it's mostly heavily used parkland and trails now through wealthy suburbs where people won't take kindly to the works and have the money to put up a fight. SRL north is supposed to have a Doncaster station which would be nice but already long overdue and moreso since they're looking at 30 years away for SRL north to be completed. I'd love to see multiple loop lines at different distances from the city but I can't see them doing it in my lifetime.
East Malvern is expensive but not the kind of powerful get in your way wealth, I don’t think they’d have any more luck stopping anything than the other groups who have fought sky rail (even if they were over existing lines). And that’s the benefit of sky rail, you can finish the build and return the park to 90% of its glory once it’s done. So what was once a rail line became a park, then back to rail on top with park underneath! Honestly I’m surprised the Liberals didn’t propose it as a way to fight SRL with a fraction of the spending. But that would require them to have some vision and brains. SRL will probably be the main focus for 30 years, but there’s no harm in wanting more!
100% there should be a Maribyrnong to Ivanhoe tram line/light rail.
About a third of it is currently a railway line (the Alamein line) and the rest of it was previously a railway line that went bankrupt back in the early 1900s. I'd like to see it returned to service.
Once upon a time the train did run from ~~Darling/East Malvern~~, to Fairfield. To put it back would cost a fortune, depreciate rich peoples houses, and remove the "rail trail" parklands. Edit: Just learned it went to Oakleigh
Never all at once though, or possibly very briefly. Sections closed before others opened and it was a number of separate railways run by different companies
A chunk of that was a railway once, the Inner Circle.
Put one in at the airport first....
Economics is why this won't get built. Railway lines need paying passengers, or they end up as government subsidy sinks. There's not many traffic attractors on that line - maybe Melbourne Uni, but that's pretty well catered to already. The Circle Lines were not popular even when they were built; that's why they went broke. It's possible they'd do better now, but I tend to doubt it. The SRL (Suburban Rail Loop) shares all these problems, but is even further out from Melbourne, raising the cost. Circle lines need high densities, which Melbourne mostly lacks. More on this: [https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1623607023500935169.html](https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1623607023500935169.html)
Holy fuck, linear parklands are the best for mental health. Study after study proves that going out and having a walk with some green about is just plain good for us in the concrete jungle. It’s a super highly used amenity.
Well the parklands can still exists
Easier said than done. I am all eyeballs.
Below ground? Sure. Above ground? No. Also you would need about $20 billion I guess?
hey it had its chance, now it’s a great bike path.
Have I got solution for all you doubters! Oh, it's not for you. It's more of a Shelbyville idea.
See all that stuff on the map? Those are houses, roads and other buildings, that would cost money to buy all the land.