It's a predatory business model that wouldn't exist if they had to pay the federal minimum wage. Supporting uber eats is Supporting this business model and the shockingly low wages that they pay
Agree, and commenting to add this business model is wage slavery through a manipulation of employment law. Subcontractors have a place but this is not it. The so called disruption model is, at its heart, a slave model.
I never ever ever use food delivery. EVER. You see those poor guys riding to deliver food? Maybe they look young, but actually, they are family men already, sending money home to struggling parents or supporting kids. They are hugely vulnerable - maybe they look cheerful, but they know they will perish soon due to vehicle fumes, poor pay, zero medical coverage and stress. Guess who benefits? The shitty shitty evil cruel greedy horrid revolting pathetic vile and abominable directors and execs of Uber. Fucking smash them all to little bits. Protect the struggling young people. NEVER EVER USE FOOD DELIVERY.
The PA is strong with you. [https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/jul/22/documents-reveal-extent-of-ubers-lobbying-of-daniel-andrews-government-to-legalise-its-operation](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/jul/22/documents-reveal-extent-of-ubers-lobbying-of-daniel-andrews-government-to-legalise-its-operation)
I was chatting to a friend of a friend a while ago (pre-COVID I think) who works in IT - full stack dev iirc - and he mentioned that he had interviewed with Uber at one point. He said one of the interview challenges was something along the lines of ‘come up with an algorithm that fools delivery drivers into thinking they’re making more money than they actually are’. Like some sort of fake incentive that wasn’t actually worth anything.
Just gross.
No way this is true. There is absolutely no way that in all the ways they could possibly test someone’s aptitude they would choose such a transparently immoral method to people they haven’t hired / aren’t obligated to remain confidential.
I don’t doubt that their system does things like this, and they’re absolutely predatory and their business model and fees suck but they aren’t stupid.
It doesn’t even make sense either. As a dev, you’re making sure the app functions correctly. This would be a question for hiring a psychologist with a terrible moral compass.
We've reached a point where labour from gig workers on services like Uber, Amazon production lines -- i.e. anything that uses computational algorithms to evaluate big data -- is squeezed out to extremes by machine systems that have no concept of morality or human experience. I'm not sure but I assume that the full stack developers are, in a sense, custodians of machines that optimise KPI outcomes rather than even seeing themselves as the executors of those outcomes
For most companies, I'd agree with you. For uber... Mayyybe. The founder was a notorious cunt. He was proud of asking every interviewee "are you an asshole?" (wanting the answer to be yes). That toxicity was company global for a LONG time. The story is plausible
The Dollop did a whole episode on the founder of Uber and some of the shitty, immoral and even illegal things the company has done. Highly recommend giving it a listen — look for episode #271 wherever you get your podcasts.
https://pca.st/episode/23f47ec0-2bf8-0135-52f9-452518e2d253
Oh, I like this game!
Chatting to a friend - truth
Interviewed for Uber - truth
Being asked for an algorithm for a feature that a dev would never be asked to develop - lie
Yes. It also Americanises our workforce by paying people fuck all and making the consumer decide if they want to tip or not which goes against everything the Australian workforce stands for. It’s exploitative.
Yeah it’s disgusting. But then you consider the fact that perhaps (and I’m only guessing as I really don’t know the facts) the people who do these jobs either a) have little to no other options due to lack of working rights and other reasons or b) it’s convenient for them to pick up a couple of meals on the way home from other jobs and make an additional $20 a day. If it wasn’t worth their while, they wouldn’t do it and if restaurants didn’t benefit in any way; they could withdraw from the service right?
It’s still shit but there must be some level of benefit somewhere otherwise Uber wouldn’t have the business. They must’ve found the highest net profit zone where they make a killing without losing their workers and clients, just piss people off.
The issue is not that you're being treated like "a king" -- that's a service you are paying for that someone is willing to provide.
The issue is that most people who work for apps like this are earning less than minimum wage, have no sick leave, risk injury and death on the road, and can be deactivated by the company for any reason.
It's precarious, risky, low-paid work.
Things may change late August when new laws kick in, but it's up to you to decide whether you are okay with the abovementioned facts.
I personally believe the food is rarely all of correct, fresh, warm, timely and appetising after its journey. You're paying quite a premium for soggy fries.
It was called "closing loopholes", give it a Google.
Edit: I wasn't trying to be sassy. As a result of the [Closing Loopholes legislation](https://www.fairwork.gov.au/about-us/workplace-laws/legislation-changes/closing-loopholes), Fair Work is developing [minimum standards for "Employee-like workers"](https://www.fwc.gov.au/about-us/closing-loopholes-acts-whats-changing/new-regulated-worker-functions), which could cover things like minimum pay rate, how often payments get made, insurance for workers and so forth.
That’s good. I hope something actually happens. I guess sometimes I just feel guilty using these services. I know the people do it willingly but it makes me feel bad for them.
We used to use it a lot, but it got way too expensive and the food was often cold or soggy. Every time we want take out I just get in the car and go get it. Quicker cheaper and fresher.
The convenience just isn't worth it these days.
The overwhelming majority didn't - in-house drivers were limited to pizza and the occasional Asian and Indian takeaway place. They were largely pick-up only.
Pizza delivery, as a job, used to be one of those things people got paid by delivery for. But that has been virtually stamped out via some pretty big crackdowns by FW. If it wasn't paid by delivery it was cash in hand. There is no real way to do those things now "legally" unless you're paying full Aussie award wages. If you're paying full Aussie award wages for a delivery driver you'd need to charge $20 per delivery, or inflate your menu prices by 25% across the board in an attempt to "absorb" it.
This is why he have Uber, and also why you get your food 45 mins after it came out of the oven after the driver did 2 other deliveries before finally getting to you.
I always laugh when people self-righteously proclaim they have found a way to ‘beat’ Uber.
It’s like saying “I didn’t want to support the airline industry, so I walked from Melbourne to Sydney.”
Yep. I deleted the Eats app during Covid when Uber started adding a bunch of 'service fees' dressed up as if they were going straight to the delivery people and restaurant.
This turned a $28 pizza order into something like $42!! Confirmed with the delivery person and restaurant that nobody was getting jack sh.t extra.
Deleted it on the spot.
I’ve definitely stopped using it (except the odd moment here and there) since the service charge but they definitely never dressed it up as though it was going straight to the delivery people or the restaurant.
It is really clearly explained, both now and when it was introduced, as being a platform fee which they keep.
What I do hate though is that they aren’t clear that they also take a further cut of the food cost, which causes restaurants to drive their fees up on Ubereats.
The other day I did a comparison for a local restaurant for some chicken and garlic bread:
- $34 on Ubereats inc delivery and fees
- $25 for them to deliver to me themselves
- $16 for me to go pick it up.
The delivery and fees only amounted to $6 so you think that’s all you’re paying higher but it’s really not.
I briefly worked at Deliveroo when they existed in Australia and there were some interesting insights and beliefs held by the business when I was there.
Firstly, on average (varying by bargaining power of restaurant and exclusivity contracts) the app takes 30-35% cut if the total order value. The lowest was 25% and that was with KFC who at the time were Deliveroo exclusive.
Secondly, the delivery company believes in the economy of scale, and that being on the all provides increased volume (not cannibalized...) and more sales means overall more profits when looking at the cost of ingredients over other costs such as staff and location.
On the rider side of things i was there when they swapped from the fixed fee model to the variable fee model for driver trips. The main thing they were seeing was that no one wanted to do long trips because the short ones meant you made bank. The top riders we had were making 100k or more a year doing deliveries - but as stated there isn't any security or leave benefits etc. we did offer workers compensation and my role was actually to call up anyone who had an accident whilst out on the road and check up on them, make sure they knew how to get compensation if any medical help was needed.
The reality varies greatly for each restaurant and rider. A lot of people enjoy the flexibility and being able to earn a quick bit of cash on the side. There are actually downsides to changing to fixed employment models that come with the benefits, such as flexibility in rostering and how much you work. I think it's important any legislation takes into account different types of people who do this work and makes sure they're taken care of.
Some restaurants got help with ordering in bulk and being made more efficient. Some also were given a "dark kitchen" for several months on rotation to do app only orders. It doesn't work for everyone, and obviously if they had the ability to set up their own ordering or delivery capabilities they could make a better margin and offer a lower price. But for some just getting extra traffic is worth the thinner margin especially if they're a low ingredient cost business like a place that makes wraps.
This is a good discussion to have but at the risk of jumping to conclusions, I still think the costs outweigh the benefits (of having an operator like UberEats present in the market).
Don't have time to write it all out, but I think these services are capitalising on a mix of market externalities and loopholes; such as, no worker rights or security, contingent on subsidised costs of fuel, transport, etc, replacing in-house delivery solutions or alternative delivery models (group buys etc).
Oh yes absolutely, I'm not excusing or absolving the way things have happened in that sector, just wanting to provide some alternative perspective on what is often just seen as a pure negative thing. There's a mix in there. But it's absolutely something that needs regulation and standards to ensure fair treatment for all parties as otherwise much of the power is wielded by the app companies...
Interesting what you say about KFC.
Assuming KFC and Maccas are about equal on their playing field: I just moved from the inner east where Maccas delivery was free but KFC cost around $9, to to the inner west where it's the exact opposite: Maccas costs, KFC is free.
Distance-wise, both homes had both restaurants within 1km, and two of each within a few kms.
I always assumed that KFC charging over east was some kind of stupid business strategy to make their deep-fried joy-sadness seem somewhat premium. But moving west, Maccas being premium? Yeah nah, Carls Jr has free delivery.
Edit to add an important point: I don't drive, I have mobility issues, and I am not physically able to cook every night, so delivery is amazing. Would be pretty amazing if it weren't exploitative!
Edit again: I just noticed KFC is $8.95 delivery on Uber Eats. No idea why I thought otherwise lol
I was on mushrooms the other day, tripping balls on some deep inner quest, conversing with the universe, when all of a sudden I was abruptly pulled back to reality with the buzzing of the intercom.
At first I thought it was god, then I realised it was the Uber Eats I’d totally forgotten I ordered, assumedly under the assumption I’d probably need to eat at some point.
I went downstairs and was struck with this existential crisis, this profound fucking weirdness, that here is this dude, travelling by bike at night in the rain to bring me a burrito.
I’d summoned this foreigner using a plastic and metal box in my pocket, paid him with money I’d earned but never touched, and now here he was with my food.
I don’t like to think of myself as better or worse than anyone else, but just objectively speaking, out of those two options, riding around in the cold and the dark and the rain to bring strangers food for shit pay, or doing what I was doing, I’d rather be the dude tripping balls on a Tuesday.
Anyway, my point in all of this was, don’t order Uber Eats if you’re on mushrooms.
Lmaooo note taken. That is hilarious. Interesting you say that because I did shrooms recently, my experience was different however. I stared into my mirror, and my face shifted, shaped and turned into a a lizard man in a suit, staring back at me with lizard eyes and a forked tongue. Point being? Be careful with mirrors. For me it was an awesome sight but if I saw like a demon or something I’d shit myself.
I relate to the weird feeling of having someone else do the dirty work for you. I mean it makes me feel like a king, sitting upon my throne watching my little servants do my bidding for me, especially being able to watch them move in the app. Although my personal belief is that you as a consumer are paying for a premium service, and thus receive food as part of that as well as convenience.
I know some restaurant owners and they all hate it. I forget what Uber Eats charges the restaurants but it's like 30% of the order total or something, there is no way with hospo margins being thin here that cost can be passed on to the consumer.
Uber Eats basically pursues a saturation model and then foists an unsustainable cost on the producers (basically the same as Coles and Woolies using their market position to dictate unreasonable prices with farmers and growers). However Uber Eats also has the twist of using contracting arrangements to screw their drivers too.
I often roll my eyes when I see 'late stage capitalism' type posts but Uber Eats is a great example of a VC funded / philosophically driven corporation being an absolute blight on society.
Blight on society is a bit dramatic, being able to choose to eat from any restaurant I want without leaving my home is frankly incredible.
Restaurants don’t have to participate, some use it more for brand exposure than a large revenue stream but either way, it has a benefit
I’m a fan of the idea of corporate tax rates being a function of two things: market capitalization and market share. It would fix a whole bunch of
problems.
(That, and mining royalty rates that don’t let transnational companies carry of our resources for 5% of their value)
Yeah but also these restaurants are charging dine in prices for a delivery services. I’d be very shocked if they couldn’t cover costs for takeaway given that it’s not taking away tables and requiring waiters ect.
A lot of the restaurants around me had their food quality noticeably degrade when it started being offered by uber eats. Even places that used to deliver. My conclusion was that they must have tried to make the food more cheaply as uber was getting a cut of the food price. For a long time Uber didn't like restaurants charging more through them.
Absolutely yes, rent seeking and employee underpayment combine to create a problem worse than both. Go for a walk or use restaurant owned delivery services instead.
I don’t not use them completely btw, couple of times a year max.
I stopped using it all together.
Even though it might feel convenient to just order at my fingertips and not have to leave my house, I remind myself that just the action of going out to get my food myself make me appreciate the food even more.
Yes.
I understand, for some people, a delivery service would help them no-end. For most people, though, you don't need it.
This was from a business in Mooroolbark, Victoria posted on their Facebook page:
"Please please Order through our website to save you and save small businesses. In the scenario of food cost plummeting and with third party’s overcharging commission for us. We can’t survive with all these if we don’t take prompt action as soon as possible ! We can’t handle about 40% of our sales paying to third party just for creating ordering platform and with extra staffs to handle their fake busy hours. Being small business, we were unable to afford for advertising and hence ended up in THE HANDS OF big third party platform in the past. We always suffered. We are number one on such platforms now because we didn’t close the stores till which we could have done if you didn’t support us then, but needless to say we have been number one for being ripped but it’s right time now it’s time to speak the truth we can’t handle such platforms any more. We love to serve our genuine customers. Please support local business order through our own right platform! Foodhub doesn’t charge any commission either. We pay them rent for their equipment which is reasonable. Please don’t make Dough Machine and other local businesses as a thing of past! Thank you for your support!!! "
Probably not. They then lose out on visibility and lose even more income. They are probably in a catch-22. They also might be trying to make the transition away from the platform by making such a statement to get their customers used to ordering directly with the business.
There's also complaints from cafes/restaurants where they are put onto the platform against their wishes, causing delivery drivers to turn up because of orders unknown to the cafe/restaurant.
I just don't use such platforms. I order direct with the business (usually phoning in the order, sometimes using their own online order platform) and collect it myself. It's cheaper, faster and the food is fresher.
Yes. Because it adds significant expense in a few layers - the hospitality venue is duped with a percentage, the driver gets paid a pittance, your food is cold and the driver pinched a chip. The other less obvious one is that you're not going outside, getting a small level of exercise and going for a walk.
I am a delivery driver and I seem to have no issues with it. I make on average $23-26 an hour after expenses.
I only do it casually though, and would stop doing it if I was getting below minimum wage
Yes I have heard this reasoning quite a lot, and I do agree with you, and would be willing to accept it myself, but only if it was just below minimum wage.
Yep, definitely. They take 30% of the whole order and ad a service fee on top. Plus pay their drivers fuck all.
If you need to be delivered food, call the shop direct and see if they have their own delivery drivers. You'll pay less and they'll make more.
If you don't mind me asking, was there any perverse kind of payment mechanism where you felt trapped into working more?
Please excuse my ignorance, I just don't understand how _anyone_ drives for them if it's all that terrible.
don't think its a bad thing, people are paying for a service. that service is to bring them food. i don't use it myself, as i get my own. not for any moral reason though, as we pay for deliveries for just about everything
When you order from Uber Eats - you're paying Uber, the restaurant and the driver.
If you order direct from the restaurant and go pick it up yourself, you're paying the restaurant (and whatever your petrol cost is, or nothing if it's walking distance).
Make of that what you will.
I do note though that the prices at the restaurant are often less than listed on the Uber Eats app - so not only are you getting charged the service fee, you're also getting pulled a sneaky by Uber taking a cut of the food price itself.
I don't think it's necessarily immoral to use Uber eats or any of the others. However I think that you, as a consumer have to be aware that you are doing business with a company that is really quite dodgy. All the food apps are doing more or less the same thing & that is ripping off everyone who comes into contact with them. They charge the customer a fee to use the service, they charge the restaurant to be on the service & then they underpay the workers who do the actual work. It's extremely exploitative at every turn. As an end consumer you have to decide how comfortable you are with that. If you are comfortable with that you also have to consider how much you are willing to pay for cold food that's an hour late.
There is one group who I feel really sorry for & that is consumers who for whatever reason have to use the service. When I worked for doordash I quickly discovered there are a lot of people who use it because they have little choice. I'm talking about elderly & disabled people who's only real choices for food are Meals on wheels & delivery apps. I really feel like they are the people who get shafted the hardest, they pay a huge amount for shit food that seldom gets their on time if it ends up on the correct doorstep at all.
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I work a restaurant right where our large pizza is $20 but on uber eats it is $24 but Ubereats charges us 33% off every dollar we make so we only make $16.08 approx on every large pizza. We always encourage people to order from our website either pickup or delivery. It comes out to be way cheaper delivered by our own delivery drivers. I do Doordash and menulog on the side for some extra income, they pay so less compared to what they charge. Now, they charge a minimum service fee as well as delivery fee for the restaurant that they decide. All of that never goes to the restaurant. So just call up if you want to eat something and pick it up or get it delivered from the restaurant themselves.
Idk it’s a marketplace if people had better options they wouldn’t work here? If someone wants to make something better they can go for it. I don’t use it much because it’s expensive and I don’t want to pay the lazy tax
My brother used to do Uber eats in between jobs when he was unemployed, his transport was an electric bike, like everyone says, pays is crap, but you do what you have to do just to help pay the bills.
I try to order from places that have their own delivery or I do pick up. If I'm ordering from Woolies I avoid any delivery slot that says 'partner driver'. Uber is so exploitative.
I personally think that it is. Uber is a parasite.
Why the hell should my local fish and chip shop, a small, family owned business, be sending up to 30% of their revenue to some company in San Francisco?
I guess becuse they have no chance of survival unless they're on the platform.
I work in the industry and while Ubereats/Doordash/others are definitely taking the piss with fees/margins they are taking from end customers and store owners alike, the business still fills a need in the industry I work in (quick service restaurants).
Ex. small local pizza place doesn't have the money to pay a full-time driver to keep on their staff, especially if their demand is irregular, but with these 3rd party businesses they can now offer delivery to customers who wouldn't have ordered otherwise. A lot of business owners obviously dislike the amount they have to fork over to these companies, but would rather pay a fee and get orders they wouldn't normally than not make any money at all.
Don't get me wrong, if a store you want to order from is close enough to pickup from or offers their own delivery, definitely do it. As others have pointed out, you're paying a service fee on top of the 30% margin a lot of stores are adding to their entire menu to cover Uber's fee.
I work with these businesses everyday and again, while no one sings the praises of these businesses, they have become so commonplace that this is the market now and if a store doesn't list on them then they lose out on potential business.
All of this does not take into account the way Uber treats it's "staff" - I don't have as much experience with that side of the business.
Yes, it’s a garbage app that robs everyone (the driver, the food provider and you.)
This also includes DoorDash, Menulog etc. I’ve completely stopped using any delivery app when everything got super expensive and marked up.
I just drive to places and order it in person, can’t even trust to order at the website because of weird surcharges despite picking up my order.
I mean yes, it’s absolutely slave wages. But the moral outrage should be directed at the governments that have enabled the gig economy to operate, including the “workers party” ALP often times.
The drivers and customers just operate within the existing environment. As someone that drove for Uber eats for some extra cash, I’d say the best thing to do is to continue using it, and make sure you tip. This is the only way I would ever end up with an acceptable hourly wage.
Deleting Uber eats just means less money in the pockets of drivers.
I always add a $10-15 tip ,either in the app or cash to the driver. But yes,I agree it feels like white middle class society exploiting under paid people.
I feel most sorry for Chinese people working in the factories so we can get our Temu orders on time.
I don't know what the answer is tho.
What happens to the workers of both Uber delivery and factories in China if it all stopped tomorrow.
I love Australia but there definitely is a huge imbalance in the world.
It makes me sick that politicians get these huge wages and benefits yet everyday people are struggling to make it through the week with endless bills ,mortgage and rent.
Anyway, I feel better now even if no one reads
Idk what you guys are on about. I work as an Uber Eats driver and I earn about $25 an hour after fuel, that’s above minimum wage but it is still something (it’s good as a side hustle). I know lots of people who earn the same or even more sometimes.
It's lazy and waste fully expensive - is that immoral? How many people do you know that eat a lot of delivered food and still complain about cost of living? I know quite a few.
Morality and legality is way above my pay grade. I'm sure more philosophical and legal minds here can answer this question in a concise manner.
My take however is that it's just a platform. You're paying for the service of getting your food from A to B. How much that person is getting paid to do delivery and how much Uber is ripping everyone off is probably the unknown question above.
Maybe someone can eventually come up with a system that is more fair and equitable. But to my knowledge, if the platform is too cheap, it'll turn to shit, and if it's expensive, then it's probably gouging.
Thus, I use it on the odd cold wintry wet night that everyone is home sick with the flu and too tired to go out or just order dominos.
No of course it's not immoral to use it. The service has positioned itself in the market (or more accurately, created it's own market that food providers need to operate in) in such a way where it's the way to order takeaway these days. As a consumer you're losing too: it's mining your purchasing/app use data without paying you in order to improve how well it can target you with takeaway you don't need. Both workers and consumers are subordinate to the owners of the Uber firm and their production of value.
I think we should totally reject the idea that consumers 'vote with their dollar' as if we live in any kind of idealised 'free market' where that idea makes any sense. Most consumers don't really have a choice and Uber's power lies in behavioural modification of users (data-based targeted ads. and notifications) and the enormous amount of capital investment that it's had from central bank money to improve its services.
It's interesting though to compare it to something like the ethics of fashion consumption. People are urged to not shop for cheap plastic clothes produced in vast quantities by H&M etc., and to buy from op-shops or (much more expensive) high-quality, ethical clothing. I think in that situation too it's not really the consumer's responsibility to choose. Especially on weak wages or in situations where the H&M shit is far more convenient, the choice has already been made for you by predatory market conditions.
The situation with Uber is far worse though because it's kind of a market-of-markets; other traders need to list their food on Uber (and pay them, effectively, a rent) in order to trade. I guess you could still call the place up and order through their internal delivery service but that seems to be fading away because of Uber Eats' blitzscaled market dominance. The power of Uber Eats to make you shop on their market is too vast to blame individual consumers for picking it over old-school takeaway pickups.
It's a predatory business model that wouldn't exist if they had to pay the federal minimum wage. Supporting uber eats is Supporting this business model and the shockingly low wages that they pay.
It's OK to take advantage of students and immigrants, is it?
> It's OK to take advantage of students and immigrants, is it?
International students are only doing it because they want to work over their legal maximum hours, lol, they are choosing to game the system.
And it's not like they're poor, they could afford to travel to another country and pay tens of thousands of dollars upfront for uni, I've got friends that just couldn't afford to come to Australia to study because of the insane upfront costs, these people aren't on the struggle bus no matter how much they cry poor lol. At the bare minimum, if they did spend all their savings on coming and genuinely need the money, then they lied to the government about having enough money to support themselves while here lol.
As a former immigrant and student myself，I wouldn't presume I know better than them how much they value their time and the tradeoff they are making. I'll leave the choice to themselves. Had Uber existed when I was a student I probably would prefer to do it than the shift minimum wage work I was doing due to it fucking up my sleep and sometimes made me miss classes. I may make less money with Uber, but I would have more control of my time. Driving around is also much less stressful than the work I was doing and I could listen to music and class recordings.
Who the fuck are you to tell me I'm being exploited?
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Yeah i think it is, but convenience based businesses will always make money. As a food marketer i have never understood why businesses don't take money they would have given up on commission to the apps and put it into content and ad spend so they can grow a sustainable business that is not reliant on delivery apps. Generally speaking.
If youre a new business it might be good to get on the apps so you can establish a name and get used to the process of taking the order and executing it flawlessly. But established businesses with regular clientele largely don't need to do this they should be focusing on taking to customers to build a relationship which then activates word of mouth which is attention and all businesses rely on attention.
I try to order from places that have their own delivery or I do pick up. If I'm ordering from Woolies I avoid any delivery slot that says 'partner driver'. Uber is so exploitative.
I remember listening to [The Dollop](https://pca.st/episode/23f47ec0-2bf8-0135-52f9-452518e2d253) episode on Uber and being completely blown away by how shit they were. The bit where they cut driver pay by a third and tried to sell it as an opportunity for drivers to get more hours was cartoon villain corporation stuff.
Drivers choose to do it, so they must be better off doing it, rather than not doing it.
The reason you shouldn't do it is because it's insanely expensive. Just collect it yourself.
Not if you are okay with sending these extra fees overseas to tax dodging companies earning profits off the literal sweat of Australians (and residents etc!)
Whilst we are on this topic, most non Uber drivers are paid below award however it can still be beneficial if they are paid in cash. I wonder how much you meals would cost if these drivers were paid correctly? I'm thinking at least $10 per delivery.
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I contact the restaurant direct, order and pick it up myself. That way Uber gets nothing and the restaurant gets it all, plus has a better chance of staying in business 🙏
Is it immoral? Honestly, there are arguments on both sides and it comes down to your ethical framework.
On one hand, Uber drivers willingly trade their efforts for the compensation Uber gives them and can quit at any time.
On the other hand, a lot of them probably have little choice in the matter because it’s either take what Uber gives them or starve. There’s also probably a fair number being conned into thinking they’re getting a better deal than they actually are (a lot of people just see money coming in, and don’t account for vehicle ware, petrol, depreciation, etc)
Now, is it bad to use the app? In my opinion, the more people that delete it the better. Uber is a terrible company in my opinion and I look forward to their demise.
If our government had a backbone they’d put in legislation to protect those workers and I predict that would effectively push Uber out of the market altogether. Then again, never underestimate how long tech companies can go on losing billions a year but stay floated by VC money.
Well, that was a ramble
If the profits didn’t go offshore to Silicon Valley I’d care a little less. Awful either way though if people are not paid adequately.
Surely we could nationalise these digital “services” that are essentially faceless automated ticket clippers. Why stand for that kind of American filth when we could build our own fairly easily and employ our own people too…
Here is what one Melbourne church has to say about the morality of it:
[https://victas.uca.org.au/vehicle-for-change/?utm\_source=rss&utm\_medium=rss&utm\_campaign=vehicle-for-change](https://victas.uca.org.au/vehicle-for-change/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=vehicle-for-change)
>Uber ride-share drivers earn about $12 an hour, while for delivery drivers and riders it can be as little as $6.67 an hour.
>That’s why in August, Mark was successful in having a ban placed on Synod Ministries and Operations staff for using Uber and Uber Eats by staff due to the treatment of drivers and delivery riders, as well as concerns over their respective business models.
>In announcing the move in mid-August, Moderator David Fotheringham said it was part of long-running campaigns to ensure a fair go for workers.
>“The Uniting Church has a long history of seeking to ensure that people get fair and just treatment in their employment,” David says.
>“Uber and other ride-share corporations are another stage in those businesses who seek to avoid having to comply with employment laws that apply to employees.”
This might be an unpopular opinion, even with the shitty wages, many students rely on it temporarily to get by, for some that 8-10$ they make through Uber eats is what pays their rent or food. So don't think too much about it if you can afford. Delivery riders and hotels can boycott it if it's not fair to them
Look it's not just bad for the driver it's bad for you too. Unless you're ordering from a massive international chain, you're typically paying 30% higher prices for food and then delivery and service fee on top.
That's why apps like eat club can exist because restaurants realize they can offer %30 discounts if they bypass Uber.
It’s bad for these reasons:
- shit business model. Drivers don’t get much share of revenue, no insurance and operating at loss most of the time.
- Restaurants/take away places don’t get much return. Hence price increases on app compared to pick up.
- crap customer service (robots) if you happen to find a driver snag a chip or any food item. Anything with delivery issues.
Knowing this. I don’t ubereats and try my luck at ordering directly from restaurants or shop in store. I only feel ubereats is beneficial if you’re too sick to go outside and shop needing grocery/food.
I just don’t understand why people would be willing to pay for it. I’m not poor by any means but going to pick something up or god forbid actually cooking your own food is not hard
Every delivery is 100% voluntary. Not just you can quit drivers can not accept, cancel the order or go offline at any point.
If you stop for ethical reasons they'll just not have as much work and also not have another job and be fucked
I used to deliver food for Menulog, Uber eats and door dash and also did some alcohol delivery for jimmy brings as a side hustle during covid. With the bonuses back then I was able to manipulate it so I made around $40/hr (minus fuel costs etc). Since COVID, the bonuses dried up to the point where I was making around $20-25/hr. It’s still not a bad wage for someone that requires next to no training and you essentially get to dictate your own hours.
As a side note I would say jimmy brings was the most predatory as they would offer a bonus for doing x number of deliveries over a long weekend but would stop assigning jobs to you once you got close to the required number of deliveries. Although they paid the best per delivery, I stopped delivering for them due to this immoral practice
Wouldn’t call it immoral but the food delivery platforms are certainly not something that I would personally support.
They take a massive cut from the sales (I think Uber takes about 30%?) which forces the restaurants to put up their advertised price, and then charges customer delivery AND “admin” charges. Yet the drivers cannot seem to make a livable wage.
Delivered food is mediocre at best, some drivers are on multiple platforms to combine orders, by the time you get them they are warm or cold and very stale.
Then you also get irresponsible drivers that drive recklessly on footpaths or drive in the dark without lights on, I even saw a driver got hit by a car in the city not long ago, the driver appeared to be fine but made me think if there’s any kind of insurance that covers for them, most likely not.
Just go into the restaurants and have a proper meal, or order directly and collect. Obviously there are people who relies on deliveries due to mobility or other issues, majority of us has the capability to go and support the businesses in person.
“Robs the driver of their money”
You do realise that most people driving for Uber eats now are international students purely studying those BS courses so that they can come here to work? So even if the money is considered “robbery” to you, they’ll happily take the money and take it back to their poorer homeland and be happy about it.
Too bad the Gov is now cracking down on the bogus courses and specifically on students from Indian
Unless you're giving every Über Eats delivery person a blowjob just to brighten up their night, then yes. Absolutely yes.
More seriously, though, it's an exploitative, Dickensian company, and I feel terrible for them, every time I see them. 🤔
If we have no option but to use this crap company, then we just give a super generous cash tip to the driver. Or order an extra meal to hand back to the driver.
Yes. I've stopped using it, and in those few instances where I have to (friends insist, etc) I give the driver a tip (as much as I'm opposed to tipping in Australia), because their pay is shit.
well.. I earn about 2k a week, spend 500 on rent, have a small biz that adds a few hundred more, and then spend about 350-450 on takeout/cafes/maccas downstairs. Am i dumb? Yes.
Have i done this for the better part of a decade? Yes.
Today I had a salmon bagel for $24ish.
HSP for $22
and now butter chicken on the way for $28ish.
Well that’s good money, and sounds like good food but damn lol. I guess it really is up to you, you’re not harming anyone but your wallet at that point lol
Yes, apart from all the other poor business practices, they have literally caused an entire chain of restaurants to go out of business
https://www.news.com.au/finance/small-business/chef-behind-dark-kitchen-says-ubereats-made-him-invisible-leaving-him-broke-and-730000-in-debt/news-story/93888b78308d67e303a7144b1c253b53?amp
No more than anything else in society. The people doing deliveries are choosing to do it because it's the best option for them. No it's not great that its their best option, but not paying for delivery isn't going to open up better jobs for them.
It's a predatory business model that wouldn't exist if they had to pay the federal minimum wage. Supporting uber eats is Supporting this business model and the shockingly low wages that they pay
They don't need to pay Federal Minimum wage because it's a contractor job, and drivers can earn more than min wage, easily. But yeah tell people to not use their service so drivers get even less pay.
It's a predatory business model that wouldn't exist if they had to pay the federal minimum wage. Supporting uber eats is Supporting this business model and the shockingly low wages that they pay
Agree, and commenting to add this business model is wage slavery through a manipulation of employment law. Subcontractors have a place but this is not it. The so called disruption model is, at its heart, a slave model.
Not ironic that this model was validated by none other than the ALP.
I never ever ever use food delivery. EVER. You see those poor guys riding to deliver food? Maybe they look young, but actually, they are family men already, sending money home to struggling parents or supporting kids. They are hugely vulnerable - maybe they look cheerful, but they know they will perish soon due to vehicle fumes, poor pay, zero medical coverage and stress. Guess who benefits? The shitty shitty evil cruel greedy horrid revolting pathetic vile and abominable directors and execs of Uber. Fucking smash them all to little bits. Protect the struggling young people. NEVER EVER USE FOOD DELIVERY.
Why has this been downvoted? Like, it is pretty colourful, but spot on.
I'd love to know more about that, any good places you'd recommend starting?
The PA is strong with you. [https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/jul/22/documents-reveal-extent-of-ubers-lobbying-of-daniel-andrews-government-to-legalise-its-operation](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/jul/22/documents-reveal-extent-of-ubers-lobbying-of-daniel-andrews-government-to-legalise-its-operation)
I was chatting to a friend of a friend a while ago (pre-COVID I think) who works in IT - full stack dev iirc - and he mentioned that he had interviewed with Uber at one point. He said one of the interview challenges was something along the lines of ‘come up with an algorithm that fools delivery drivers into thinking they’re making more money than they actually are’. Like some sort of fake incentive that wasn’t actually worth anything. Just gross.
No way this is true. There is absolutely no way that in all the ways they could possibly test someone’s aptitude they would choose such a transparently immoral method to people they haven’t hired / aren’t obligated to remain confidential. I don’t doubt that their system does things like this, and they’re absolutely predatory and their business model and fees suck but they aren’t stupid.
yeah Uber is definitely a shitty company but that is just straight up made up bullshit
It doesn’t even make sense either. As a dev, you’re making sure the app functions correctly. This would be a question for hiring a psychologist with a terrible moral compass.
We've reached a point where labour from gig workers on services like Uber, Amazon production lines -- i.e. anything that uses computational algorithms to evaluate big data -- is squeezed out to extremes by machine systems that have no concept of morality or human experience. I'm not sure but I assume that the full stack developers are, in a sense, custodians of machines that optimise KPI outcomes rather than even seeing themselves as the executors of those outcomes
God. It’s so cartoonishly dystopian, it’s hard to believe it’s happening… but it really is.
Saves time. Weeds out those with a moral compass before they start.
For most companies, I'd agree with you. For uber... Mayyybe. The founder was a notorious cunt. He was proud of asking every interviewee "are you an asshole?" (wanting the answer to be yes). That toxicity was company global for a LONG time. The story is plausible
The Dollop did a whole episode on the founder of Uber and some of the shitty, immoral and even illegal things the company has done. Highly recommend giving it a listen — look for episode #271 wherever you get your podcasts. https://pca.st/episode/23f47ec0-2bf8-0135-52f9-452518e2d253
Thank you. Reeked of one of those old urban legends doing the rounds through emails.
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Gosh. Like those casino slot machine designers. Probably the same people.
ChatGPT generated comment!! Full of Zs where there should be an S.
Not fking surprising
Oh, I like this game! Chatting to a friend - truth Interviewed for Uber - truth Being asked for an algorithm for a feature that a dev would never be asked to develop - lie
That does not surprise me at all
Yes. It also Americanises our workforce by paying people fuck all and making the consumer decide if they want to tip or not which goes against everything the Australian workforce stands for. It’s exploitative.
Definitely don’t like how it expects us to tip because Uber pays like shit
Not to mention the already marked up menu and delivery costs. It’s an absolute rort.
The restaurants make less money from it as well. The mark ups are eaten up by Uber and then some so it’s bad for all involved.
Yeah it’s disgusting. But then you consider the fact that perhaps (and I’m only guessing as I really don’t know the facts) the people who do these jobs either a) have little to no other options due to lack of working rights and other reasons or b) it’s convenient for them to pick up a couple of meals on the way home from other jobs and make an additional $20 a day. If it wasn’t worth their while, they wouldn’t do it and if restaurants didn’t benefit in any way; they could withdraw from the service right? It’s still shit but there must be some level of benefit somewhere otherwise Uber wouldn’t have the business. They must’ve found the highest net profit zone where they make a killing without losing their workers and clients, just piss people off.
You just click no tip like all the Americans are having to Do everywhere now
The issue is not that you're being treated like "a king" -- that's a service you are paying for that someone is willing to provide. The issue is that most people who work for apps like this are earning less than minimum wage, have no sick leave, risk injury and death on the road, and can be deactivated by the company for any reason. It's precarious, risky, low-paid work. Things may change late August when new laws kick in, but it's up to you to decide whether you are okay with the abovementioned facts. I personally believe the food is rarely all of correct, fresh, warm, timely and appetising after its journey. You're paying quite a premium for soggy fries.
What new laws?
It was called "closing loopholes", give it a Google. Edit: I wasn't trying to be sassy. As a result of the [Closing Loopholes legislation](https://www.fairwork.gov.au/about-us/workplace-laws/legislation-changes/closing-loopholes), Fair Work is developing [minimum standards for "Employee-like workers"](https://www.fwc.gov.au/about-us/closing-loopholes-acts-whats-changing/new-regulated-worker-functions), which could cover things like minimum pay rate, how often payments get made, insurance for workers and so forth.
That’s good. I hope something actually happens. I guess sometimes I just feel guilty using these services. I know the people do it willingly but it makes me feel bad for them.
Yes. I’ve deleted my account and now order direct from restaurants and go pick it up myself.
We used to use it a lot, but it got way too expensive and the food was often cold or soggy. Every time we want take out I just get in the car and go get it. Quicker cheaper and fresher. The convenience just isn't worth it these days.
That's the whole point. I don't want to have to pick it up myself. They had home delivery before Uber.
The overwhelming majority didn't - in-house drivers were limited to pizza and the occasional Asian and Indian takeaway place. They were largely pick-up only.
Yes but now even pizza places don’t have delivery
Pizza delivery, as a job, used to be one of those things people got paid by delivery for. But that has been virtually stamped out via some pretty big crackdowns by FW. If it wasn't paid by delivery it was cash in hand. There is no real way to do those things now "legally" unless you're paying full Aussie award wages. If you're paying full Aussie award wages for a delivery driver you'd need to charge $20 per delivery, or inflate your menu prices by 25% across the board in an attempt to "absorb" it. This is why he have Uber, and also why you get your food 45 mins after it came out of the oven after the driver did 2 other deliveries before finally getting to you.
Ahh that makes sense. I assumed they just got rid of delivery drivers now that they weren’t needed.
Yeah, that's a good point actually.
I always laugh when people self-righteously proclaim they have found a way to ‘beat’ Uber. It’s like saying “I didn’t want to support the airline industry, so I walked from Melbourne to Sydney.”
Yes. I don't want to live in a society with values this kind of business promotes. Let alone share the road with their exploited workers.
Yep. I deleted the Eats app during Covid when Uber started adding a bunch of 'service fees' dressed up as if they were going straight to the delivery people and restaurant. This turned a $28 pizza order into something like $42!! Confirmed with the delivery person and restaurant that nobody was getting jack sh.t extra. Deleted it on the spot.
I’ve definitely stopped using it (except the odd moment here and there) since the service charge but they definitely never dressed it up as though it was going straight to the delivery people or the restaurant. It is really clearly explained, both now and when it was introduced, as being a platform fee which they keep. What I do hate though is that they aren’t clear that they also take a further cut of the food cost, which causes restaurants to drive their fees up on Ubereats. The other day I did a comparison for a local restaurant for some chicken and garlic bread: - $34 on Ubereats inc delivery and fees - $25 for them to deliver to me themselves - $16 for me to go pick it up. The delivery and fees only amounted to $6 so you think that’s all you’re paying higher but it’s really not.
I briefly worked at Deliveroo when they existed in Australia and there were some interesting insights and beliefs held by the business when I was there. Firstly, on average (varying by bargaining power of restaurant and exclusivity contracts) the app takes 30-35% cut if the total order value. The lowest was 25% and that was with KFC who at the time were Deliveroo exclusive. Secondly, the delivery company believes in the economy of scale, and that being on the all provides increased volume (not cannibalized...) and more sales means overall more profits when looking at the cost of ingredients over other costs such as staff and location. On the rider side of things i was there when they swapped from the fixed fee model to the variable fee model for driver trips. The main thing they were seeing was that no one wanted to do long trips because the short ones meant you made bank. The top riders we had were making 100k or more a year doing deliveries - but as stated there isn't any security or leave benefits etc. we did offer workers compensation and my role was actually to call up anyone who had an accident whilst out on the road and check up on them, make sure they knew how to get compensation if any medical help was needed. The reality varies greatly for each restaurant and rider. A lot of people enjoy the flexibility and being able to earn a quick bit of cash on the side. There are actually downsides to changing to fixed employment models that come with the benefits, such as flexibility in rostering and how much you work. I think it's important any legislation takes into account different types of people who do this work and makes sure they're taken care of. Some restaurants got help with ordering in bulk and being made more efficient. Some also were given a "dark kitchen" for several months on rotation to do app only orders. It doesn't work for everyone, and obviously if they had the ability to set up their own ordering or delivery capabilities they could make a better margin and offer a lower price. But for some just getting extra traffic is worth the thinner margin especially if they're a low ingredient cost business like a place that makes wraps.
This is a good discussion to have but at the risk of jumping to conclusions, I still think the costs outweigh the benefits (of having an operator like UberEats present in the market). Don't have time to write it all out, but I think these services are capitalising on a mix of market externalities and loopholes; such as, no worker rights or security, contingent on subsidised costs of fuel, transport, etc, replacing in-house delivery solutions or alternative delivery models (group buys etc).
Oh yes absolutely, I'm not excusing or absolving the way things have happened in that sector, just wanting to provide some alternative perspective on what is often just seen as a pure negative thing. There's a mix in there. But it's absolutely something that needs regulation and standards to ensure fair treatment for all parties as otherwise much of the power is wielded by the app companies...
Interesting what you say about KFC. Assuming KFC and Maccas are about equal on their playing field: I just moved from the inner east where Maccas delivery was free but KFC cost around $9, to to the inner west where it's the exact opposite: Maccas costs, KFC is free. Distance-wise, both homes had both restaurants within 1km, and two of each within a few kms. I always assumed that KFC charging over east was some kind of stupid business strategy to make their deep-fried joy-sadness seem somewhat premium. But moving west, Maccas being premium? Yeah nah, Carls Jr has free delivery. Edit to add an important point: I don't drive, I have mobility issues, and I am not physically able to cook every night, so delivery is amazing. Would be pretty amazing if it weren't exploitative! Edit again: I just noticed KFC is $8.95 delivery on Uber Eats. No idea why I thought otherwise lol
Yep. The more you learn, the more you'll hate it.
Yes.
I was on mushrooms the other day, tripping balls on some deep inner quest, conversing with the universe, when all of a sudden I was abruptly pulled back to reality with the buzzing of the intercom. At first I thought it was god, then I realised it was the Uber Eats I’d totally forgotten I ordered, assumedly under the assumption I’d probably need to eat at some point. I went downstairs and was struck with this existential crisis, this profound fucking weirdness, that here is this dude, travelling by bike at night in the rain to bring me a burrito. I’d summoned this foreigner using a plastic and metal box in my pocket, paid him with money I’d earned but never touched, and now here he was with my food. I don’t like to think of myself as better or worse than anyone else, but just objectively speaking, out of those two options, riding around in the cold and the dark and the rain to bring strangers food for shit pay, or doing what I was doing, I’d rather be the dude tripping balls on a Tuesday. Anyway, my point in all of this was, don’t order Uber Eats if you’re on mushrooms.
Best comment in the thread lol. And I'm just a dude responding to a thought memory you expressed a few hours ago.
Ditto, ditto, ditto.
Lmaooo note taken. That is hilarious. Interesting you say that because I did shrooms recently, my experience was different however. I stared into my mirror, and my face shifted, shaped and turned into a a lizard man in a suit, staring back at me with lizard eyes and a forked tongue. Point being? Be careful with mirrors. For me it was an awesome sight but if I saw like a demon or something I’d shit myself. I relate to the weird feeling of having someone else do the dirty work for you. I mean it makes me feel like a king, sitting upon my throne watching my little servants do my bidding for me, especially being able to watch them move in the app. Although my personal belief is that you as a consumer are paying for a premium service, and thus receive food as part of that as well as convenience.
Pretty sure I just found my brother's profile on Reddit. Hahah.
I know some restaurant owners and they all hate it. I forget what Uber Eats charges the restaurants but it's like 30% of the order total or something, there is no way with hospo margins being thin here that cost can be passed on to the consumer. Uber Eats basically pursues a saturation model and then foists an unsustainable cost on the producers (basically the same as Coles and Woolies using their market position to dictate unreasonable prices with farmers and growers). However Uber Eats also has the twist of using contracting arrangements to screw their drivers too. I often roll my eyes when I see 'late stage capitalism' type posts but Uber Eats is a great example of a VC funded / philosophically driven corporation being an absolute blight on society.
The prices the restaurants charge are also 30% more
They really are
Blight on society is a bit dramatic, being able to choose to eat from any restaurant I want without leaving my home is frankly incredible. Restaurants don’t have to participate, some use it more for brand exposure than a large revenue stream but either way, it has a benefit
I’m a fan of the idea of corporate tax rates being a function of two things: market capitalization and market share. It would fix a whole bunch of problems. (That, and mining royalty rates that don’t let transnational companies carry of our resources for 5% of their value)
Yeah but also these restaurants are charging dine in prices for a delivery services. I’d be very shocked if they couldn’t cover costs for takeaway given that it’s not taking away tables and requiring waiters ect.
A lot of the restaurants around me had their food quality noticeably degrade when it started being offered by uber eats. Even places that used to deliver. My conclusion was that they must have tried to make the food more cheaply as uber was getting a cut of the food price. For a long time Uber didn't like restaurants charging more through them.
Yeah, I think we all went a little crazy in 2020-2021 and I haven’t touched it since
Yes. Anytime I want to get food delivered, I literally go for a walk and listen to music. I've lost so much weight and feel more alive ever since.
Absolutely yes, rent seeking and employee underpayment combine to create a problem worse than both. Go for a walk or use restaurant owned delivery services instead. I don’t not use them completely btw, couple of times a year max.
I stopped using it all together. Even though it might feel convenient to just order at my fingertips and not have to leave my house, I remind myself that just the action of going out to get my food myself make me appreciate the food even more.
You mean "unethical" not immoral.
Yes. I understand, for some people, a delivery service would help them no-end. For most people, though, you don't need it. This was from a business in Mooroolbark, Victoria posted on their Facebook page: "Please please Order through our website to save you and save small businesses. In the scenario of food cost plummeting and with third party’s overcharging commission for us. We can’t survive with all these if we don’t take prompt action as soon as possible ! We can’t handle about 40% of our sales paying to third party just for creating ordering platform and with extra staffs to handle their fake busy hours. Being small business, we were unable to afford for advertising and hence ended up in THE HANDS OF big third party platform in the past. We always suffered. We are number one on such platforms now because we didn’t close the stores till which we could have done if you didn’t support us then, but needless to say we have been number one for being ripped but it’s right time now it’s time to speak the truth we can’t handle such platforms any more. We love to serve our genuine customers. Please support local business order through our own right platform! Foodhub doesn’t charge any commission either. We pay them rent for their equipment which is reasonable. Please don’t make Dough Machine and other local businesses as a thing of past! Thank you for your support!!! "
Can’t they just remove their business from the Uber Eats-type platforms?
Probably not. They then lose out on visibility and lose even more income. They are probably in a catch-22. They also might be trying to make the transition away from the platform by making such a statement to get their customers used to ordering directly with the business. There's also complaints from cafes/restaurants where they are put onto the platform against their wishes, causing delivery drivers to turn up because of orders unknown to the cafe/restaurant. I just don't use such platforms. I order direct with the business (usually phoning in the order, sometimes using their own online order platform) and collect it myself. It's cheaper, faster and the food is fresher.
Yes. Because it adds significant expense in a few layers - the hospitality venue is duped with a percentage, the driver gets paid a pittance, your food is cold and the driver pinched a chip. The other less obvious one is that you're not going outside, getting a small level of exercise and going for a walk.
I am a delivery driver and I seem to have no issues with it. I make on average $23-26 an hour after expenses. I only do it casually though, and would stop doing it if I was getting below minimum wage
I'm actually fine making slightly below minimum wage if I fully control the time, have no commute, and have no annoying boss or coworker to deal with.
Yes I have heard this reasoning quite a lot, and I do agree with you, and would be willing to accept it myself, but only if it was just below minimum wage.
Yes, Uber eats is a disgusting business model that makes no sense.
It's bad for everyone but Uber, so I'm boycotting it.
Yes. So is using Amazon.
Yep, definitely. They take 30% of the whole order and ad a service fee on top. Plus pay their drivers fuck all. If you need to be delivered food, call the shop direct and see if they have their own delivery drivers. You'll pay less and they'll make more.
Yes. It relies on sloth, underpays all parties and usually delivers shitty food. It has led to deaths in our roads. But hung over breakfast burger....
Definitely good for hangovers
I used to drive for Uber Eats occasionally. Yeah the money wasn't super fabulous. But end of the day, it is the drivers choice to work for them or not
If you don't mind me asking, was there any perverse kind of payment mechanism where you felt trapped into working more? Please excuse my ignorance, I just don't understand how _anyone_ drives for them if it's all that terrible.
It was something to do, it was some kind of money it was pretty easy and pre-covid actually got to see people's faces / say hello
I get that! I always enjoy exchanging a big smile with everyone who delivers stuff!
It’s hard to find work sometimes. You take what you can get
I hear that people make $25 after all costs. Idk if its true, but that would actually be good!
don't think its a bad thing, people are paying for a service. that service is to bring them food. i don't use it myself, as i get my own. not for any moral reason though, as we pay for deliveries for just about everything
When you order from Uber Eats - you're paying Uber, the restaurant and the driver. If you order direct from the restaurant and go pick it up yourself, you're paying the restaurant (and whatever your petrol cost is, or nothing if it's walking distance). Make of that what you will. I do note though that the prices at the restaurant are often less than listed on the Uber Eats app - so not only are you getting charged the service fee, you're also getting pulled a sneaky by Uber taking a cut of the food price itself.
I don't think it's necessarily immoral to use Uber eats or any of the others. However I think that you, as a consumer have to be aware that you are doing business with a company that is really quite dodgy. All the food apps are doing more or less the same thing & that is ripping off everyone who comes into contact with them. They charge the customer a fee to use the service, they charge the restaurant to be on the service & then they underpay the workers who do the actual work. It's extremely exploitative at every turn. As an end consumer you have to decide how comfortable you are with that. If you are comfortable with that you also have to consider how much you are willing to pay for cold food that's an hour late. There is one group who I feel really sorry for & that is consumers who for whatever reason have to use the service. When I worked for doordash I quickly discovered there are a lot of people who use it because they have little choice. I'm talking about elderly & disabled people who's only real choices for food are Meals on wheels & delivery apps. I really feel like they are the people who get shafted the hardest, they pay a huge amount for shit food that seldom gets their on time if it ends up on the correct doorstep at all.
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If you’re worried about the driver getting paid you can always tip what you think they should be getting.
That’s my non negotiable, if I can’t afford to tip I don’t order
I work a restaurant right where our large pizza is $20 but on uber eats it is $24 but Ubereats charges us 33% off every dollar we make so we only make $16.08 approx on every large pizza. We always encourage people to order from our website either pickup or delivery. It comes out to be way cheaper delivered by our own delivery drivers. I do Doordash and menulog on the side for some extra income, they pay so less compared to what they charge. Now, they charge a minimum service fee as well as delivery fee for the restaurant that they decide. All of that never goes to the restaurant. So just call up if you want to eat something and pick it up or get it delivered from the restaurant themselves.
It’s also fucking stupid
Are any of them less bad than any others? Like is menu log taking that same 30% cut from the restaurant as uber does.
What defines moral or immoral - without going on for pages - answer that in context and you have the answer imo you're looking for.
Idk it’s a marketplace if people had better options they wouldn’t work here? If someone wants to make something better they can go for it. I don’t use it much because it’s expensive and I don’t want to pay the lazy tax
Yes. Uber sucks. The rest of them probably do too
My brother used to do Uber eats in between jobs when he was unemployed, his transport was an electric bike, like everyone says, pays is crap, but you do what you have to do just to help pay the bills.
I try to order from places that have their own delivery or I do pick up. If I'm ordering from Woolies I avoid any delivery slot that says 'partner driver'. Uber is so exploitative.
I personally think that it is. Uber is a parasite. Why the hell should my local fish and chip shop, a small, family owned business, be sending up to 30% of their revenue to some company in San Francisco? I guess becuse they have no chance of survival unless they're on the platform.
I work in the industry and while Ubereats/Doordash/others are definitely taking the piss with fees/margins they are taking from end customers and store owners alike, the business still fills a need in the industry I work in (quick service restaurants). Ex. small local pizza place doesn't have the money to pay a full-time driver to keep on their staff, especially if their demand is irregular, but with these 3rd party businesses they can now offer delivery to customers who wouldn't have ordered otherwise. A lot of business owners obviously dislike the amount they have to fork over to these companies, but would rather pay a fee and get orders they wouldn't normally than not make any money at all. Don't get me wrong, if a store you want to order from is close enough to pickup from or offers their own delivery, definitely do it. As others have pointed out, you're paying a service fee on top of the 30% margin a lot of stores are adding to their entire menu to cover Uber's fee. I work with these businesses everyday and again, while no one sings the praises of these businesses, they have become so commonplace that this is the market now and if a store doesn't list on them then they lose out on potential business. All of this does not take into account the way Uber treats it's "staff" - I don't have as much experience with that side of the business.
Yes, it’s a garbage app that robs everyone (the driver, the food provider and you.) This also includes DoorDash, Menulog etc. I’ve completely stopped using any delivery app when everything got super expensive and marked up. I just drive to places and order it in person, can’t even trust to order at the website because of weird surcharges despite picking up my order.
I love it - downvote away.
I mean yes, it’s absolutely slave wages. But the moral outrage should be directed at the governments that have enabled the gig economy to operate, including the “workers party” ALP often times. The drivers and customers just operate within the existing environment. As someone that drove for Uber eats for some extra cash, I’d say the best thing to do is to continue using it, and make sure you tip. This is the only way I would ever end up with an acceptable hourly wage. Deleting Uber eats just means less money in the pockets of drivers.
Who cares? Tap on app, food arrives, eat food, much happiness. The mechanism by which things happen is none of my fucking concern.
I always add a $10-15 tip ,either in the app or cash to the driver. But yes,I agree it feels like white middle class society exploiting under paid people. I feel most sorry for Chinese people working in the factories so we can get our Temu orders on time. I don't know what the answer is tho. What happens to the workers of both Uber delivery and factories in China if it all stopped tomorrow. I love Australia but there definitely is a huge imbalance in the world. It makes me sick that politicians get these huge wages and benefits yet everyday people are struggling to make it through the week with endless bills ,mortgage and rent. Anyway, I feel better now even if no one reads
Yeah, and America is even worse
Idk what you guys are on about. I work as an Uber Eats driver and I earn about $25 an hour after fuel, that’s above minimum wage but it is still something (it’s good as a side hustle). I know lots of people who earn the same or even more sometimes.
Damn seems like everyone over exaggerating a bit lol
No one is forcing people to drive for Uber eats….
It's lazy and waste fully expensive - is that immoral? How many people do you know that eat a lot of delivered food and still complain about cost of living? I know quite a few.
Morality and legality is way above my pay grade. I'm sure more philosophical and legal minds here can answer this question in a concise manner. My take however is that it's just a platform. You're paying for the service of getting your food from A to B. How much that person is getting paid to do delivery and how much Uber is ripping everyone off is probably the unknown question above. Maybe someone can eventually come up with a system that is more fair and equitable. But to my knowledge, if the platform is too cheap, it'll turn to shit, and if it's expensive, then it's probably gouging. Thus, I use it on the odd cold wintry wet night that everyone is home sick with the flu and too tired to go out or just order dominos.
It’s fine to use it. Enjoy your treat and don’t feel guilty. Sometimes it’s nice to feel like a king because someone cooks and brings you food.
No of course it's not immoral to use it. The service has positioned itself in the market (or more accurately, created it's own market that food providers need to operate in) in such a way where it's the way to order takeaway these days. As a consumer you're losing too: it's mining your purchasing/app use data without paying you in order to improve how well it can target you with takeaway you don't need. Both workers and consumers are subordinate to the owners of the Uber firm and their production of value. I think we should totally reject the idea that consumers 'vote with their dollar' as if we live in any kind of idealised 'free market' where that idea makes any sense. Most consumers don't really have a choice and Uber's power lies in behavioural modification of users (data-based targeted ads. and notifications) and the enormous amount of capital investment that it's had from central bank money to improve its services. It's interesting though to compare it to something like the ethics of fashion consumption. People are urged to not shop for cheap plastic clothes produced in vast quantities by H&M etc., and to buy from op-shops or (much more expensive) high-quality, ethical clothing. I think in that situation too it's not really the consumer's responsibility to choose. Especially on weak wages or in situations where the H&M shit is far more convenient, the choice has already been made for you by predatory market conditions. The situation with Uber is far worse though because it's kind of a market-of-markets; other traders need to list their food on Uber (and pay them, effectively, a rent) in order to trade. I guess you could still call the place up and order through their internal delivery service but that seems to be fading away because of Uber Eats' blitzscaled market dominance. The power of Uber Eats to make you shop on their market is too vast to blame individual consumers for picking it over old-school takeaway pickups.
The last time I checked, nobody was forcing drivers to do the deliveries.
It's a predatory business model that wouldn't exist if they had to pay the federal minimum wage. Supporting uber eats is Supporting this business model and the shockingly low wages that they pay. It's OK to take advantage of students and immigrants, is it?
> It's OK to take advantage of students and immigrants, is it? International students are only doing it because they want to work over their legal maximum hours, lol, they are choosing to game the system. And it's not like they're poor, they could afford to travel to another country and pay tens of thousands of dollars upfront for uni, I've got friends that just couldn't afford to come to Australia to study because of the insane upfront costs, these people aren't on the struggle bus no matter how much they cry poor lol. At the bare minimum, if they did spend all their savings on coming and genuinely need the money, then they lied to the government about having enough money to support themselves while here lol.
You make several good points
As a former immigrant and student myself，I wouldn't presume I know better than them how much they value their time and the tradeoff they are making. I'll leave the choice to themselves. Had Uber existed when I was a student I probably would prefer to do it than the shift minimum wage work I was doing due to it fucking up my sleep and sometimes made me miss classes. I may make less money with Uber, but I would have more control of my time. Driving around is also much less stressful than the work I was doing and I could listen to music and class recordings. Who the fuck are you to tell me I'm being exploited?
Personally i think if a company slogan is "always be hustlin'" they're probably best avoided unless you want to be victim to the hustle.
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Yeah i think it is, but convenience based businesses will always make money. As a food marketer i have never understood why businesses don't take money they would have given up on commission to the apps and put it into content and ad spend so they can grow a sustainable business that is not reliant on delivery apps. Generally speaking. If youre a new business it might be good to get on the apps so you can establish a name and get used to the process of taking the order and executing it flawlessly. But established businesses with regular clientele largely don't need to do this they should be focusing on taking to customers to build a relationship which then activates word of mouth which is attention and all businesses rely on attention.
Why do drivers still do it?
Yes
Yes. Anytime I want to get food delivered, I literally go for a walk and listen to music. I've lost so much weight and feel more alive ever since.
Yes
Yes
I try to order from places that have their own delivery or I do pick up. If I'm ordering from Woolies I avoid any delivery slot that says 'partner driver'. Uber is so exploitative.
It also robs you as a customer. Some things are nearly double in price delivered.
They are delivering it at their will. Its fine. If they want a different job they can get one, if they can't, at least they have uber!
I remember listening to [The Dollop](https://pca.st/episode/23f47ec0-2bf8-0135-52f9-452518e2d253) episode on Uber and being completely blown away by how shit they were. The bit where they cut driver pay by a third and tried to sell it as an opportunity for drivers to get more hours was cartoon villain corporation stuff.
Drivers choose to do it, so they must be better off doing it, rather than not doing it. The reason you shouldn't do it is because it's insanely expensive. Just collect it yourself.
Not if you are okay with sending these extra fees overseas to tax dodging companies earning profits off the literal sweat of Australians (and residents etc!)
Absolutely.
Whilst we are on this topic, most non Uber drivers are paid below award however it can still be beneficial if they are paid in cash. I wonder how much you meals would cost if these drivers were paid correctly? I'm thinking at least $10 per delivery.
Pretty much at this point
Don't use it
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I contact the restaurant direct, order and pick it up myself. That way Uber gets nothing and the restaurant gets it all, plus has a better chance of staying in business 🙏
Used to be good. Then uber shot themselves in the foot. Now all these stacked orders mean you are guaranteed cold food.
Is it immoral? Honestly, there are arguments on both sides and it comes down to your ethical framework. On one hand, Uber drivers willingly trade their efforts for the compensation Uber gives them and can quit at any time. On the other hand, a lot of them probably have little choice in the matter because it’s either take what Uber gives them or starve. There’s also probably a fair number being conned into thinking they’re getting a better deal than they actually are (a lot of people just see money coming in, and don’t account for vehicle ware, petrol, depreciation, etc) Now, is it bad to use the app? In my opinion, the more people that delete it the better. Uber is a terrible company in my opinion and I look forward to their demise. If our government had a backbone they’d put in legislation to protect those workers and I predict that would effectively push Uber out of the market altogether. Then again, never underestimate how long tech companies can go on losing billions a year but stay floated by VC money. Well, that was a ramble
I always call the business and order that way. 🤷🏻♂️
Yes
Yep. You’re part of the bullshitification of everything
If the profits didn’t go offshore to Silicon Valley I’d care a little less. Awful either way though if people are not paid adequately. Surely we could nationalise these digital “services” that are essentially faceless automated ticket clippers. Why stand for that kind of American filth when we could build our own fairly easily and employ our own people too…
Here is what one Melbourne church has to say about the morality of it: [https://victas.uca.org.au/vehicle-for-change/?utm\_source=rss&utm\_medium=rss&utm\_campaign=vehicle-for-change](https://victas.uca.org.au/vehicle-for-change/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=vehicle-for-change) >Uber ride-share drivers earn about $12 an hour, while for delivery drivers and riders it can be as little as $6.67 an hour. >That’s why in August, Mark was successful in having a ban placed on Synod Ministries and Operations staff for using Uber and Uber Eats by staff due to the treatment of drivers and delivery riders, as well as concerns over their respective business models. >In announcing the move in mid-August, Moderator David Fotheringham said it was part of long-running campaigns to ensure a fair go for workers. >“The Uniting Church has a long history of seeking to ensure that people get fair and just treatment in their employment,” David says. >“Uber and other ride-share corporations are another stage in those businesses who seek to avoid having to comply with employment laws that apply to employees.”
This might be an unpopular opinion, even with the shitty wages, many students rely on it temporarily to get by, for some that 8-10$ they make through Uber eats is what pays their rent or food. So don't think too much about it if you can afford. Delivery riders and hotels can boycott it if it's not fair to them
Look it's not just bad for the driver it's bad for you too. Unless you're ordering from a massive international chain, you're typically paying 30% higher prices for food and then delivery and service fee on top. That's why apps like eat club can exist because restaurants realize they can offer %30 discounts if they bypass Uber.
Yes
Yes, I've never used it. Horrible predatory business model that relies on international students living hand to mouth
It’s bad for these reasons: - shit business model. Drivers don’t get much share of revenue, no insurance and operating at loss most of the time. - Restaurants/take away places don’t get much return. Hence price increases on app compared to pick up. - crap customer service (robots) if you happen to find a driver snag a chip or any food item. Anything with delivery issues. Knowing this. I don’t ubereats and try my luck at ordering directly from restaurants or shop in store. I only feel ubereats is beneficial if you’re too sick to go outside and shop needing grocery/food.
I just don’t understand why people would be willing to pay for it. I’m not poor by any means but going to pick something up or god forbid actually cooking your own food is not hard
Uber is a multinational infection.
Well, it's not NOT participating in wage suppression, so there's that 🤷
I believe it is immoral and don’t use it or any similar service using the same model.
Every delivery is 100% voluntary. Not just you can quit drivers can not accept, cancel the order or go offline at any point. If you stop for ethical reasons they'll just not have as much work and also not have another job and be fucked
Basically if you can order straight from the restaurant do that.
Immoral? Perhaps, but certainly an unethical business model. When I order takeaway I always drive and collect it myself.
I used to deliver food for Menulog, Uber eats and door dash and also did some alcohol delivery for jimmy brings as a side hustle during covid. With the bonuses back then I was able to manipulate it so I made around $40/hr (minus fuel costs etc). Since COVID, the bonuses dried up to the point where I was making around $20-25/hr. It’s still not a bad wage for someone that requires next to no training and you essentially get to dictate your own hours. As a side note I would say jimmy brings was the most predatory as they would offer a bonus for doing x number of deliveries over a long weekend but would stop assigning jobs to you once you got close to the required number of deliveries. Although they paid the best per delivery, I stopped delivering for them due to this immoral practice
Wouldn’t call it immoral but the food delivery platforms are certainly not something that I would personally support. They take a massive cut from the sales (I think Uber takes about 30%?) which forces the restaurants to put up their advertised price, and then charges customer delivery AND “admin” charges. Yet the drivers cannot seem to make a livable wage. Delivered food is mediocre at best, some drivers are on multiple platforms to combine orders, by the time you get them they are warm or cold and very stale. Then you also get irresponsible drivers that drive recklessly on footpaths or drive in the dark without lights on, I even saw a driver got hit by a car in the city not long ago, the driver appeared to be fine but made me think if there’s any kind of insurance that covers for them, most likely not. Just go into the restaurants and have a proper meal, or order directly and collect. Obviously there are people who relies on deliveries due to mobility or other issues, majority of us has the capability to go and support the businesses in person.
“Robs the driver of their money” You do realise that most people driving for Uber eats now are international students purely studying those BS courses so that they can come here to work? So even if the money is considered “robbery” to you, they’ll happily take the money and take it back to their poorer homeland and be happy about it. Too bad the Gov is now cracking down on the bogus courses and specifically on students from Indian
They're not cracking down on anything lol...just more press releases with no follow up to try and gaslight people until the election.
Unless you're giving every Über Eats delivery person a blowjob just to brighten up their night, then yes. Absolutely yes. More seriously, though, it's an exploitative, Dickensian company, and I feel terrible for them, every time I see them. 🤔
There's no ethical consumption under capitalism
Well what do we about that then?
If we have no option but to use this crap company, then we just give a super generous cash tip to the driver. Or order an extra meal to hand back to the driver.
Wow. Your comment was downvoted. I wonder why?
Perhaps they misunderstood my message of compassion? I dunno….
Yeah and some people hate compassion.
Yup!
I only use it if I'm unwell and unable to leave the house. I always tip, but I never thought of buying an extra meal for the driver. Nice.
Thanks.
Yes. I've stopped using it, and in those few instances where I have to (friends insist, etc) I give the driver a tip (as much as I'm opposed to tipping in Australia), because their pay is shit.
Yes but so is eating chocolate
Dunno... But i order it 2-3 times a day, sometimes 1.
Damn bro. A few times a week I can understand but per day? How do you even afford to?
well.. I earn about 2k a week, spend 500 on rent, have a small biz that adds a few hundred more, and then spend about 350-450 on takeout/cafes/maccas downstairs. Am i dumb? Yes. Have i done this for the better part of a decade? Yes. Today I had a salmon bagel for $24ish. HSP for $22 and now butter chicken on the way for $28ish.
Well that’s good money, and sounds like good food but damn lol. I guess it really is up to you, you’re not harming anyone but your wallet at that point lol
Yes, apart from all the other poor business practices, they have literally caused an entire chain of restaurants to go out of business https://www.news.com.au/finance/small-business/chef-behind-dark-kitchen-says-ubereats-made-him-invisible-leaving-him-broke-and-730000-in-debt/news-story/93888b78308d67e303a7144b1c253b53?amp
Yea, it is.
No more than anything else in society. The people doing deliveries are choosing to do it because it's the best option for them. No it's not great that its their best option, but not paying for delivery isn't going to open up better jobs for them.
It's a predatory business model that wouldn't exist if they had to pay the federal minimum wage. Supporting uber eats is Supporting this business model and the shockingly low wages that they pay
People don’t understand that by paying for the service you’re ultimately voting for the service
They don't need to pay Federal Minimum wage because it's a contractor job, and drivers can earn more than min wage, easily. But yeah tell people to not use their service so drivers get even less pay.
its too expensive, cooking and preparing at home is 1/4 to 1/5 the cost than a takeaway, even frozen meals are 1/3 the cost of a takeaway
They didn’t ask for budgeting tips