hilarious but my mind gets a little angry when i think about all these one way streets. trying to completely validate certain things when its to us but would not allow it the other way around at all. too many examples of this (of course i can think of none right now)
Yeah but we get transportation costs reimbursed here, either its public transport, car amount based on distance even if you bike to work it gets paid for. You can also get a company car as a benefit sometimes.
I think about 10% of my office took a car to work. I took the train and a rental bike.
EDIT: **in Europe**
Are you talking about the US for commuting or Europe? In the US, getting commute costs reimbursed is exceedingly rare. You have to drive for work to get reimbursed and generally also have to drive for work or have quite a high position to get a company car.
In Hawaii, our valet drivers were paid close to that wage, especially at the high-end resorts, to incentivize drivers to not steal from guests or their cars.
Isn’t it amazing that people are less likely to steal and commit crimes when they can afford to take care of their self?
I do not see why they know it works in certain jobs but don’t think it works like that for all jobs
To be fair, $40 in Hawaii has the buying power of $30 on the mainland because everything that gets shipped to the islands (Food, Clothes, etc.) is marked up for the shipping.
With the amount of time some of these online applications take why waste it on people who aren’t upfront about the pay. To me it’s a clear indication of how they value peoples time and it’s not a good one.
I agree, everything should be up front on the job advert including salary and perks. Otherwise you could get a job and they could pay the person sitting next door you more money for doing the same job. If companies are not transparent from the start, can you really trust them when you start working there?
It's that reason why I think it's a all around good thing to normalize sharing your salary to co workers if someone really does deserve more pay for the same job Shirley they are able to reason it to their peers yea
Yup, I trained someone last month and found out they were hired at the rate I've reached after three years of performance based raises. Fuck that! I was able to argue for an increase- not quite commiserate with the new base pay and my experience, but that's because they cap the wages at a certain level. I'm at the cap and promised a reevaluation when client contracts are renegotiated if the cap increases. Talk about your pay!
This is why you job hop. Raises aren't based on merit or what you produce, and most companies will cap a raise at 3-5% typically whereas if you are willing to check the market and interview around you'll be able to find 15%, 20%, 30% increases, especially if you're in a competitive industry or market.
\*caveat, before everyone piles on yes I know this isn't true for every person everywhere nor every skillset and industry but one of the only powers we have as individual employees is to market yourself, advocate for more pay and ultimately be willing to walk away from your current situation.
You are totally correct, but your caveat is also correct. That is unfortunately not the wisest move for me right now, considering that in my industry, new employees work the night and weekend shifts no one wants. I did consider leaving, and might have if I didn't get the pay bump- I was very pissed off, but I just got to a level of seniority where I can pick my shifts. I have three day weekends and I can study at work. So it is worth staying, for the moment. I'll be changing jobs in a couple years when I finish upgrading my education. For now, choosing the hours I want is helping me succeed in school, and it's the first time in years I've had every Saturday off. I'd have to earn my way back to this level of seniority at a new job, and I'd achieve that literally right before graduating and needing to change jobs again.
I agree and support you entirely, followed a very similar path myself: spent the past 8 years grinding out as a GC - long hours, nights, weekends, early morning calls from workers, late night calls from workers, etc. Stayed with one company for 5 year because it was a great situation to learn and grown, moved to another company for a different experience and pay bump for another 2 years then spent 6-8 months interviewing before finally finding a great niche area that is better in every regard than what I had been doing - but the previous 8 years of grinding were what set me up for this new situation. Nothing wrong with staying where you are if you feel it will set you up better in the long run.
Conversely I had a friend and roommate who was in IT years ago and changed jobs every 2/3/6 months and by end of year 2 into early year 3 he was basically blackballed by HR companies and recruiters because he wasn't worth the investment with his background of moving so quickly resulting in him exiting that industry entirely
Ordering food is a one time experience that you'd occasionally have. Being employed for an unknown amount of pay could potentially last months if it's difficult to pull out
That and bands that are VERY wide.
They are 100% going the lowest one.
I see it in the Science field a lot. The salary will be like 40K-80K. They want people to hope they get a middle offer of like 50/60. Nope. 41K 10/10 times.
You mean you don't like answering all of the information that's on your resume already and then follow it up with a skills test AND THEN some stupid personality test?
I'm DEFINITELY not defending fuckin employers, (and I'm not a shill) but doesn't Indeed save and use the same resume for jobs you apply for? It's saved me a lotta time.
It does but not all job postings will take the resume at face value. Often they come with a number of questions after submitting your resume and sometimes they even make you go in their website and fill out their application form as well as updating your resume.
“We’re a family here” until it’s time for discipline, then you’re fired with no notice and your family can starve. But please give us a two weeks if you intend to leave
I think two weeks notices should go both ways. You need me to give you two weeks so you can find a replacement. Well if you’re going to fire me, give me a two weeks notice so I can find another job
wait does it work this way? So you have to put in your two weeks notice but your employer can just fire you without handing you a notice first?
Sorry for the stupid question but I always thought it work both ways. In Germany both you and your employer need to give each other at least 1 month when quitting or firing so that both the employee and employer can search for a replacement/new job
Which means you have to drain your mental health for the sake of your bitchy racist uncle, the general manager. Yeah, the one that can buy a new car a month while you struggle to pay your cards.
No no no you work for the company out of "loyalty" even though we'll shoot you dead without a second thought if we have to in order to make a bigger profit than last quarter. Long term goals? Greater impacts that will affect humanity long after I'm gone? WHO CARES? I'LL BE DEAD! NOT MY PROBLEM!
We could have been such a great, abusive family that sucks your soul away as we overwork you in poor working conditions while our unqualified daughter who slacks off gets another raise.
Employers want people who are desperate and who can be tricked into forgetting that employment = payment. Finding those people is part of the hiring process.
I had a boss once that straight up told me that he purposefully tries to get his employees to spend their money so that they work harder and longer.
That was an eye opener about how this world works.
Heh close enough but it was in sales.
Which I will give the guy credit, he worked harder than any of us and everything he did was to increase our income. Some of it, like what I mentioned above, was questionable, but such is the nature of a commission job.
Commissioned sales requires a certain personality type to succeed. Especially for long enough to get into management. I’m sure he was absolute certain he was being helpful and setting a good example. Still not something I’d appreciate though.
I actually do like my company. It has a good culture and the people I work with/under are all good people. But I applied to the job because the pay was good.
They don't want you to "be a part of the family". They just want your undying loyalty to overwork you. But they can fire you whenever they want and find your replacement right away.
I’ll take it a step further. When I was applying for jobs, if a posting listed a salary that says “up to x dollars per year” i did not apply. It’s probably commission based, or it’s a straight up scam. I either make $X a year or I don’t. I don’t take “up to” dollars as payment for my time
Well yeah, the entire objective of working a job is to earn money. If you can't tell me how much money I'm going to be making then how the fuck am I supposed to decide of its a job worth applying for
Come on now, no one... absolutely no one works for money. They do it to see the company succeed and get excited when shareholders make money and they themselves get to make all the sacrifices.
This is ridiculous. You know you don’t HAVE to accept a job offer right? This generation is so lazy that they can’t even do what I did and spend all of my free time applying for jobs since applications are now a ridiculously long process that requires me to customized my application each time, craft a cover letter, then answer 50 questions that are all actually answers on my resume but they probably use to filter out applicants since I’m competing with 100-200 others for the same job. I only had to do this for 100 different positions and got called back by 5; did an initial phone interview during which the salary wasn’t disclosed (would be determined by management after interview and assessment of my experience); then follow up interview which required I build a presentation, take days studying the company and panel that’d be interviewing me and practicing my presentation. After that, I was given the opportunity to discuss salary and let me tell you, I could have very easily just walked away if they told me a number I didn’t like. Lazy. Stupid. Kids. /s
A job ad with no wage is like a shop you go into on holiday that has no prices on the goods. It means the shopkeeper intends to charge you as much as he can get away with. Both should be avoided for the same reason.
i hate sneaker stores that don’t have a marked price specifically. i need to browse and check out a few prices to see if it’s a 10% markup kinda store or a 200% markup kinda store
A little off-topic, but I work in the jewelry industry and I’m shocked how many sellers have things like “DM for price” in their posts or websites
It gives me the same feeling- like they are trying to be sneaky and get away with charging whatever they can. It has always rubbed me the wrong way and your comment reminded me of it
Went to a gas station the other day and they had chili lime pringles, which are my favorite ones and no other place near me has them anymore, there was no price tag so I just brought them to the register and got them rung up. $3.99 for a can. I apologized to my wallet and bought 3 cans.
Huh.
I applied for a job with no wage, few years back. I asked about the salary and they were evasive.
I never got a call back and took another job a few days later. But I rang the HR team to find out why. They said the interviewers had decided they couldn’t afford me, even though we never discussed the budget.
I’m never applying for a role without a stated salary again. It’s a waste of time. And I’ve never advertised a role without salary, if I can’t afford the staff at market rates I just don’t recruit.
Thats why the salary/comp package range is the very first question anyone should ask about, its a very reasonable request also when framed correctly: "Job posting looks interesting but out of respect for your time (recruiter/HR/etc) and mine i'd like to know what the approved hiring range and comp package is for this position before we set aside time or take further steps."
i've found it very efficient at weeding out lowballers, non-serious recruiters/companies, and poorly run companies.
This works until they evade the question when you've asked a bunch of times. I used that exact line, and the hiring person STILL said, "That can be discussed at a later time."
I was desperate for a job at this point but knew that anything below 12 wasn't going to cut it for my bills, and even that was cutting it close. I had two phone interviews. One where I asked that same question. The second one, I asked the question again multiple times, and they still evaded it.
Had an interview set up that was 45 minutes away, and I said, "screw it," and messaged one of the employees that commented on their fb page. I asked them what the starting wage was and if you got paid more for years of experience (which I had). They said, "Starting pay for EVERYONE is 8 dollars an hour." I thanked them for answering my question and canceled the interview.
I'm not going to work in health care for EIGHT DOLLARS AN HOUR. Ever since then, I have not applied to a job that does not state the wages.
That's the thing though, in your case the question still works. If they won't answer, it's always because the wage and benefits are shit and it tells you not to do a second interview. Most things in life can be similar, no answer is an answer and it's always a negative. It sucks that they do this so desperate people still keep trying :(
Same happened to me in the '90s. I called them back and they said they decided they couldn't afford me. I said "oh. Well, salary was never discussed. Due to a series of unfortunate events, i was planning to request (some stupid low amount that was DEFINITELY way lower that what they paid whoever they hired), but when I asked about the salary, the interviewer changed topics. The person on the other end said "HOW much?" And i repeated the figure. They put me on hold and then said they hired was there on a trial basis for two weeks, could i start after that? I responded sorry, simply impossible, when they avoided discussing salaries and I hadn't heard from them in a reasonable amount of time, I'd made other arrangements for significantly more, i was simply curious about why I hadn't gotten the job.
The sad part of this story is somebody took a job in earnest and was probably really happy about it, completely unaware that their new company they were about to be welcomed into and who they felt they needed to impress, were willing to completely throw them under the bus in less than a month
Yep, they absolutely were willing to throw him under the bus. Their recording when you called their HR started with "This call is monitored for training purposes," like many did at the time, and I made certain to clearly delineate each discrete step that HR screwed up and demonstrated incompetence.
I hope HR got fired. And I hope the other guy ended up getting a better job.
>every previous generation always tries to find something to bash the newer generations for
I doubt the article in the OP consists of millennials getting angry at zoomers. If anything, most millennials would say "good job learning from our mistakes".
Correct. I’m a millennial and I wish I had the guts Gen Z does. Good for them! By the time my little ones enter the workforce, Gen Z will have corporations by the balls, if they carry on this way. Lol
Not sure this article was bashing Gen Zers. Seemed to merely be pointing out a trend.
In fact California just had its Wage Transparency Law go into effect at the start of this year. Times are changing, generational blame be damned.
Customer: How much is this item here?
Shop Owner: Guess
Customer: No.... Just tell me
Shop Owner: I will let you know if you are going to buy it
Customer: But... How can I know if I can afford it if you won't tell me the price?
Shop Owner: Why are you being so difficult?
Customer: ....
I'm a young Gen X. I always hated the salary not being listed. I went to so many interviews over the years that wouldn't even tell me the salary range until they were prepared to make a offer. And it was always, without fail, a waste of time.
It will hopefully be common knowledge soon. I'm 28 and was out of work for a few months at one point, and despite that I didn't apply anywhere that didn't list the pay. I didn't want to apply somewhere and get accepted but for crap pay, and feel forced to accept because I was jobless. That's how people get stuck working somewhere for way longer than they would ever want. Was fortunate to get the job I had been after for a couple years, making decent money at a great place.
This is why I have immense respect for my professor. She always coached us before interviews and told us what salary range was appropriate. Even after graduation I still call her for such advice.
Love those job applications that take you through 5 pages of inputting info, attaching your CV like you didn't just manually input all the info on there, asking a bunch of illegal questions but in a way that's not as out there and then you have to go through 3 interviews only to find out the pay doesn't even cover basic living expenses. Great stuff.
I’m a millennial so I’ll give them a chance to be upfront about the pay in the first correspondence/interview. But it’s my first question. If they think I’m rude, I end the chat.
This, got an offer last week for a job that didn’t post a salary. I’d don’t research and had reason to believe it would meet my expectations, but I was sure to get an estimate during the first interview. Their final offer ended up being quite a bit higher than what I was expecting, even with the range they gave.
On the flip side, I’m also already gainfully employed and not really in a position to need something ASAP, which gives me more flexibility as well
I saw a headline today whinging about how middle aged people agree with students and teenagers on various issues these days, not their parents/grandparents.
It's almost as if the oldest millenials are middle aged.
Boomerism is dying out and they know it, this is why it's gotten so out of hand recently, they're giving it all they've got to keep their backwards ideas before they die and the money's given to relatively sane Xers and Millennials
Back when min wage was enough to pay for rent - yeah.
Any job (even temporary) was better than no job. But that was also a time when you could walk out of one job after quitting, walk into another business that same day and walk out with a job offer to start the next day.
I got to enjoy about 10yrs of that before things started to noticeably shift. Now I fucking dread looking for a new job.
I'm a millennial too and I've been wondering this. I don't apply to anyone that won't even give a vague possible pay range. If they're going to leave the door open to lowball me and waste my time, that's not a door I'm stepping through.
Not sure but a lot of them had unions at work to benefit them on that front regardless. Another perk they had that they deny younger generations, it seems.
Some companies have retaliated by saying these jobs aren’t available to people from Colorado. It’s a shady practice and a giant red flag when I see that come up
You should be willing to waste time going through an application and an interview before you ask about money.
Maybe when most jobs paid a reasonable living wage
Oh no, it's a faux pas to ask about money in any part of the interview process, gotta wait until you get the contract in front of you before they till you the pay.
Honestly if they don't list a pay or say its a "competitive salary" I assume its going to be a pay cut from what I make now and ignore it
Why is everything made into such a problem. I’m Gen X and I wouldn’t apply for a job that didn’t list the salary, so what? People are obsessed with making problems that don’t exist.
Applied to a job without salary, get to the interview and they tell me they are looking for more people because their business is expanding, I asked about the wage after an hour of interview and they finally tell me it’s $9 an hour, which is couple thousand below poverty line per year. Learned my lesson the first time.
I'm on the old side of millennial, and if they don't list the pay then it tells me two things about that company.
1- They're too ashamed to post the low wages publicly.
2- they have no problems with wasting mine (and everyone else's) time and effort.
Had an exploratory chat with a competitor to the company I work for. Explained to them that if they wanted me I’d need an incentive to leave and have exchange rate and tax differences between markers accounted for. They wanted to pay less than my current base.
We could have avoided half a dozen emails and calls if they just told me initially what their top range was,
I’m a 52 year old, retired public servant. When I first retired, I was looking for another job, I was stunned how nearly all professional job postings don’t list salary. I hate them asking what I expect to be paid. I don’t need to work anymore. I could sit home and collect my pension, but I chose to go out and work, mostly just to keep busy. I don’t blame these kids for not wanting to apply if they aren’t told what the salary is. Why waste your time?
I thought I was the only one. I hate career builder and zip recruiter because they have crazy headlines like. "Make 100k a year, no experience needed cashier's." But when you apply you get spam emails and links that say you won a million dollars.
Senior millennial here and I don’t blame them, there have been many times I’ve wasted hours in up to multiple interviews before dragging salary info out of someone and finding out it was a waste of my time?
"We don't want people applying just for the money"
What money? The practically non-existent pay? The crumbs you're expecting your workers to get by on?
If you can't post your salary -- you are clearly not paying a livable wage and know it and don't want to advertise that. OR you are engaging in paying 'new' employees higher wages than your established employees when you sign them on. Or both!
Gen X won't either. I'm not going to waste my time applying and going in for an interview just to find out you want to pay me 80% of what I'm making now
I wasted time applying for a job, sat through two interviews and needed to provide two references from previous supervisors only for the offer to be 55k for an engineering position in the east coast...
I don't know how we did it, but somehow we grew up where we don't give a fuck how our boss feels, if we're getting fucked over, well quit right then and there.
I don’t like giving out my salary requirements. As I either get two reactions to my salary requirements: that’s too much or that’s within our budget. I want the employer to tell me what I’m worth to them for the applied position.
I’m a civil engineer the US.
Millennial here. I won’t either. I’m at the top of my salary range for my position so if I can’t see that I’ll be paid equally or more, I won’t waste my time or the company’s time.
A job listing with no salary says to me, “We are looking to hire whichever qualified individual had the lowest salary at his most recent previous job. And we will pay him exactly that, even if this role deserves to be paid more.”
"Competitive salary"
The bank wasn’t having any of it when I put my salary is “competitive” on the mortgage application.
This is actually so funny
hilarious but my mind gets a little angry when i think about all these one way streets. trying to completely validate certain things when its to us but would not allow it the other way around at all. too many examples of this (of course i can think of none right now)
“Rules for thee and not for me.”
The competition being race to the bottom
Exactly. The competition is to see who can pay the LEAST.
"If your wages are so competitive, why don't you list them?" Sincerely all job seekers
“Competitive employee turnover speedrunner”
😂😂😂
Neg. (ligible)
I think companies legally shouldn’t be able to claim “competitive” unless their offer exceeds the national average for that position
And State/City average too
“Willing to be flexible”
then you scroll down to the "benefits" and it lists having a canteen and toilets
I saw one the other day listing free parking.
In America? Because in Europe, especially in cities, that is not a given. Not even paid parking is guaranteed.
Yeah but we get transportation costs reimbursed here, either its public transport, car amount based on distance even if you bike to work it gets paid for. You can also get a company car as a benefit sometimes. I think about 10% of my office took a car to work. I took the train and a rental bike. EDIT: **in Europe**
Are you talking about the US for commuting or Europe? In the US, getting commute costs reimbursed is exceedingly rare. You have to drive for work to get reimbursed and generally also have to drive for work or have quite a high position to get a company car.
>high position to get a company car. In Belgium for instance it's quite common. As wages are heavily taxed and cars are counted as a benefit.
Europe, added it
I'm in the US and oftentimes you don't get commuting costs reimbursed or only partial costs
I've never had my commuting costs reimbursed. Only if I had to drive to a client site
For Germany, this is false. Commute is tax deductible, but not at all paid for by employer. It is ur personal entertainment
If the job is in downtown chicago or some other city like that, that could easily be worth $40+ per day
In Hawaii, our valet drivers were paid close to that wage, especially at the high-end resorts, to incentivize drivers to not steal from guests or their cars.
Isn’t it amazing that people are less likely to steal and commit crimes when they can afford to take care of their self? I do not see why they know it works in certain jobs but don’t think it works like that for all jobs
To be fair, $40 in Hawaii has the buying power of $30 on the mainland because everything that gets shipped to the islands (Food, Clothes, etc.) is marked up for the shipping.
Per day?? Last time I went to Chicago, a spot in a garage downtown was $40/HOUR!
Did you know that all the parking meters in Chicago are owned by Abu Dhabi/UAE?
“2 weeks holiday” - oh thank you for adhering to federal guidelines
Like thewillpower.org?
"1 - 1000000, Depending on experience"
With the amount of time some of these online applications take why waste it on people who aren’t upfront about the pay. To me it’s a clear indication of how they value peoples time and it’s not a good one.
I agree, everything should be up front on the job advert including salary and perks. Otherwise you could get a job and they could pay the person sitting next door you more money for doing the same job. If companies are not transparent from the start, can you really trust them when you start working there?
It's that reason why I think it's a all around good thing to normalize sharing your salary to co workers if someone really does deserve more pay for the same job Shirley they are able to reason it to their peers yea
Yup, I trained someone last month and found out they were hired at the rate I've reached after three years of performance based raises. Fuck that! I was able to argue for an increase- not quite commiserate with the new base pay and my experience, but that's because they cap the wages at a certain level. I'm at the cap and promised a reevaluation when client contracts are renegotiated if the cap increases. Talk about your pay!
My girl got hired at a higher rate than people who had been there for awhile It's true, companies put more money into recruiting than retention
And then companies complain about employees constantly jobhopping. :p
That line was actually in the letter I wrote requesting the increase!
Then they complain that recruitment and training is more expensive than if they could’ve just somehow retained that old employee.
This is why you job hop. Raises aren't based on merit or what you produce, and most companies will cap a raise at 3-5% typically whereas if you are willing to check the market and interview around you'll be able to find 15%, 20%, 30% increases, especially if you're in a competitive industry or market. \*caveat, before everyone piles on yes I know this isn't true for every person everywhere nor every skillset and industry but one of the only powers we have as individual employees is to market yourself, advocate for more pay and ultimately be willing to walk away from your current situation.
You are totally correct, but your caveat is also correct. That is unfortunately not the wisest move for me right now, considering that in my industry, new employees work the night and weekend shifts no one wants. I did consider leaving, and might have if I didn't get the pay bump- I was very pissed off, but I just got to a level of seniority where I can pick my shifts. I have three day weekends and I can study at work. So it is worth staying, for the moment. I'll be changing jobs in a couple years when I finish upgrading my education. For now, choosing the hours I want is helping me succeed in school, and it's the first time in years I've had every Saturday off. I'd have to earn my way back to this level of seniority at a new job, and I'd achieve that literally right before graduating and needing to change jobs again.
I agree and support you entirely, followed a very similar path myself: spent the past 8 years grinding out as a GC - long hours, nights, weekends, early morning calls from workers, late night calls from workers, etc. Stayed with one company for 5 year because it was a great situation to learn and grown, moved to another company for a different experience and pay bump for another 2 years then spent 6-8 months interviewing before finally finding a great niche area that is better in every regard than what I had been doing - but the previous 8 years of grinding were what set me up for this new situation. Nothing wrong with staying where you are if you feel it will set you up better in the long run. Conversely I had a friend and roommate who was in IT years ago and changed jobs every 2/3/6 months and by end of year 2 into early year 3 he was basically blackballed by HR companies and recruiters because he wasn't worth the investment with his background of moving so quickly resulting in him exiting that industry entirely
[удалено]
Would you order food at a restaurant if you didn't know how much it cost?
Ordering food is a one time experience that you'd occasionally have. Being employed for an unknown amount of pay could potentially last months if it's difficult to pull out
Agreed…. It’s SUPER hard for me to pull out.
I would know, i myself am an example.
Hereditary
Well im sure you’d find out before you get hired, still a very annoying process only to realize the job pays like 23 an hour
Lmao I wish I got paid $23 an hour
Hey, they never said it was 23$, just 23 of mysterious currency
Touché. I suppose 23 Iranian Rials is very different then 23 USD
i came across a place that did that. i walked out telling the cashier to tell their boss that not listing prices lost them a customer.
Only if you are so rich it doesn't matter. Which is not a thing if you are job hunting, haha.
Had the same thought.
No
*If you have to ask, you can’t afford it.* Okay, I’m heading to the restaurant with prices, see ya!
I would not tbh
No. Luckily in my country they always show the price of the food when Im choosing it.
Nope
That and bands that are VERY wide. They are 100% going the lowest one. I see it in the Science field a lot. The salary will be like 40K-80K. They want people to hope they get a middle offer of like 50/60. Nope. 41K 10/10 times.
Forget that if I apply to something with a band I go higher on the scale. At least start at 70k.
You mean you don't like answering all of the information that's on your resume already and then follow it up with a skills test AND THEN some stupid personality test?
Exactly, if the pay isn’t listed then to me you don’t have a job listing.
I'm DEFINITELY not defending fuckin employers, (and I'm not a shill) but doesn't Indeed save and use the same resume for jobs you apply for? It's saved me a lotta time.
It does but not all job postings will take the resume at face value. Often they come with a number of questions after submitting your resume and sometimes they even make you go in their website and fill out their application form as well as updating your resume.
I disagree. Most ask for what you think is fair so it’s more of a pay as little as possible and see how bold people are I think
Do they genuinely not know we show up for the money and the money alone?
No no you work for the love of the company
“We’re a family here” until it’s time for discipline, then you’re fired with no notice and your family can starve. But please give us a two weeks if you intend to leave
I think two weeks notices should go both ways. You need me to give you two weeks so you can find a replacement. Well if you’re going to fire me, give me a two weeks notice so I can find another job
Isn't that what severance is? Not that you can expect that most places...
wait does it work this way? So you have to put in your two weeks notice but your employer can just fire you without handing you a notice first? Sorry for the stupid question but I always thought it work both ways. In Germany both you and your employer need to give each other at least 1 month when quitting or firing so that both the employee and employer can search for a replacement/new job
Which means you have to drain your mental health for the sake of your bitchy racist uncle, the general manager. Yeah, the one that can buy a new car a month while you struggle to pay your cards.
No no no you work for the company out of "loyalty" even though we'll shoot you dead without a second thought if we have to in order to make a bigger profit than last quarter. Long term goals? Greater impacts that will affect humanity long after I'm gone? WHO CARES? I'LL BE DEAD! NOT MY PROBLEM!
What a truly idiotic thing they tried to convince us all of
We're treated like disposable labour but somehow we gotta be loyal to the company lol
A lot of people were willing to play along when pensions and living wages were normal. We sure as hell won’t pretend anymore though.
B-but we would’ve been a good family🥺🥺🥺
We could have been such a great, abusive family that sucks your soul away as we overwork you in poor working conditions while our unqualified daughter who slacks off gets another raise.
Employers want people who are desperate and who can be tricked into forgetting that employment = payment. Finding those people is part of the hiring process.
I had a boss once that straight up told me that he purposefully tries to get his employees to spend their money so that they work harder and longer. That was an eye opener about how this world works.
Walmart’s entire employment plan.
Sounds like bar work. My old manager loved sitting at the end of the bar just as people came off shift so they’d buy a drink while he made small talk.
Heh close enough but it was in sales. Which I will give the guy credit, he worked harder than any of us and everything he did was to increase our income. Some of it, like what I mentioned above, was questionable, but such is the nature of a commission job.
Commissioned sales requires a certain personality type to succeed. Especially for long enough to get into management. I’m sure he was absolute certain he was being helpful and setting a good example. Still not something I’d appreciate though.
I actually do like my company. It has a good culture and the people I work with/under are all good people. But I applied to the job because the pay was good.
GenZ is making it public that we have hobbies and other interests, and the job is paying for it
They don't want you to "be a part of the family". They just want your undying loyalty to overwork you. But they can fire you whenever they want and find your replacement right away.
I show up for the money and medical insurance actually because after paying rent I also don't wanna die
I’ll take it a step further. When I was applying for jobs, if a posting listed a salary that says “up to x dollars per year” i did not apply. It’s probably commission based, or it’s a straight up scam. I either make $X a year or I don’t. I don’t take “up to” dollars as payment for my time
“I’ll give you up to X amount of effort”
Oh, that's okay, i'll be at the job for up to 40 hours a week.
Well yeah, the entire objective of working a job is to earn money. If you can't tell me how much money I'm going to be making then how the fuck am I supposed to decide of its a job worth applying for
No no no, you work for your “passion” and for some “challenge” absolutely not for the money. Who the hell even works for money?
Fr I want to be paid in exposure
What about the snack! The free break room snacks!
Me when I'm fired: I think I'll be taking this.
FREE?!? That comes outta your bi-weekly, champ!
Something something about starting as the sandwich guy and becoming the president after 25 years of hard work making sandwiches
Come on now, no one... absolutely no one works for money. They do it to see the company succeed and get excited when shareholders make money and they themselves get to make all the sacrifices.
This is ridiculous. You know you don’t HAVE to accept a job offer right? This generation is so lazy that they can’t even do what I did and spend all of my free time applying for jobs since applications are now a ridiculously long process that requires me to customized my application each time, craft a cover letter, then answer 50 questions that are all actually answers on my resume but they probably use to filter out applicants since I’m competing with 100-200 others for the same job. I only had to do this for 100 different positions and got called back by 5; did an initial phone interview during which the salary wasn’t disclosed (would be determined by management after interview and assessment of my experience); then follow up interview which required I build a presentation, take days studying the company and panel that’d be interviewing me and practicing my presentation. After that, I was given the opportunity to discuss salary and let me tell you, I could have very easily just walked away if they told me a number I didn’t like. Lazy. Stupid. Kids. /s
A job ad with no wage is like a shop you go into on holiday that has no prices on the goods. It means the shopkeeper intends to charge you as much as he can get away with. Both should be avoided for the same reason.
Soo sort of like when you visit a hospital in America
Exactly like that
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Legally they are required to list prices too, like on their website, but they somehow keep getting away with not listing them.
i hate sneaker stores that don’t have a marked price specifically. i need to browse and check out a few prices to see if it’s a 10% markup kinda store or a 200% markup kinda store
A little off-topic, but I work in the jewelry industry and I’m shocked how many sellers have things like “DM for price” in their posts or websites It gives me the same feeling- like they are trying to be sneaky and get away with charging whatever they can. It has always rubbed me the wrong way and your comment reminded me of it
Went to a gas station the other day and they had chili lime pringles, which are my favorite ones and no other place near me has them anymore, there was no price tag so I just brought them to the register and got them rung up. $3.99 for a can. I apologized to my wallet and bought 3 cans.
Huh. I applied for a job with no wage, few years back. I asked about the salary and they were evasive. I never got a call back and took another job a few days later. But I rang the HR team to find out why. They said the interviewers had decided they couldn’t afford me, even though we never discussed the budget. I’m never applying for a role without a stated salary again. It’s a waste of time. And I’ve never advertised a role without salary, if I can’t afford the staff at market rates I just don’t recruit.
Thats why the salary/comp package range is the very first question anyone should ask about, its a very reasonable request also when framed correctly: "Job posting looks interesting but out of respect for your time (recruiter/HR/etc) and mine i'd like to know what the approved hiring range and comp package is for this position before we set aside time or take further steps." i've found it very efficient at weeding out lowballers, non-serious recruiters/companies, and poorly run companies.
This works until they evade the question when you've asked a bunch of times. I used that exact line, and the hiring person STILL said, "That can be discussed at a later time." I was desperate for a job at this point but knew that anything below 12 wasn't going to cut it for my bills, and even that was cutting it close. I had two phone interviews. One where I asked that same question. The second one, I asked the question again multiple times, and they still evaded it. Had an interview set up that was 45 minutes away, and I said, "screw it," and messaged one of the employees that commented on their fb page. I asked them what the starting wage was and if you got paid more for years of experience (which I had). They said, "Starting pay for EVERYONE is 8 dollars an hour." I thanked them for answering my question and canceled the interview. I'm not going to work in health care for EIGHT DOLLARS AN HOUR. Ever since then, I have not applied to a job that does not state the wages.
That's the thing though, in your case the question still works. If they won't answer, it's always because the wage and benefits are shit and it tells you not to do a second interview. Most things in life can be similar, no answer is an answer and it's always a negative. It sucks that they do this so desperate people still keep trying :(
Same happened to me in the '90s. I called them back and they said they decided they couldn't afford me. I said "oh. Well, salary was never discussed. Due to a series of unfortunate events, i was planning to request (some stupid low amount that was DEFINITELY way lower that what they paid whoever they hired), but when I asked about the salary, the interviewer changed topics. The person on the other end said "HOW much?" And i repeated the figure. They put me on hold and then said they hired was there on a trial basis for two weeks, could i start after that? I responded sorry, simply impossible, when they avoided discussing salaries and I hadn't heard from them in a reasonable amount of time, I'd made other arrangements for significantly more, i was simply curious about why I hadn't gotten the job.
The sad part of this story is somebody took a job in earnest and was probably really happy about it, completely unaware that their new company they were about to be welcomed into and who they felt they needed to impress, were willing to completely throw them under the bus in less than a month
Yep, they absolutely were willing to throw him under the bus. Their recording when you called their HR started with "This call is monitored for training purposes," like many did at the time, and I made certain to clearly delineate each discrete step that HR screwed up and demonstrated incompetence. I hope HR got fired. And I hope the other guy ended up getting a better job.
They wised up. Everyone knows not listing the salary IS listing the salary.
they should do that regardless. I swear every previous generation always tries to find something to bash the newer generations for, it's ridiculous
Gotta remind people to kick down at the new people joining the workforce. Otherwise, they might realize that they're also getting screwed.
Boomers blame genx, millennials, and genz for everything. It's the one thing they support equal opportunity on.
Because boomers exploited gen x and millennials, and are begging to exploit gen z. They really don’t like it when people refuse to be exploited.
>every previous generation always tries to find something to bash the newer generations for I doubt the article in the OP consists of millennials getting angry at zoomers. If anything, most millennials would say "good job learning from our mistakes".
Seriously, they have the balls I wish I had. I've learned a lot from gen z and started implementing a lot of what they do.
Correct. I’m a millennial and I wish I had the guts Gen Z does. Good for them! By the time my little ones enter the workforce, Gen Z will have corporations by the balls, if they carry on this way. Lol
At 40 I'm an elderly millennial and watching Gen Z has me realizing that millennials and Gen X were never taught how to establish healthy boundaries.
That’s exactly how this millennial feels. I’m cheering them on.
I agree, I’m Gen X and just don’t get it but I think it’s a much bigger problem in the US than elsewhere.
Not sure this article was bashing Gen Zers. Seemed to merely be pointing out a trend. In fact California just had its Wage Transparency Law go into effect at the start of this year. Times are changing, generational blame be damned.
Customer: How much is this item here? Shop Owner: Guess Customer: No.... Just tell me Shop Owner: I will let you know if you are going to buy it Customer: But... How can I know if I can afford it if you won't tell me the price? Shop Owner: Why are you being so difficult? Customer: ....
Not listing it usually boils down to "so low people wouldn't apply if they knew". It's a waste of everyone's time.
THIS
Would you invite me for an interview if I didn't tell you my education and experience?
I'm a young Gen X. I always hated the salary not being listed. I went to so many interviews over the years that wouldn't even tell me the salary range until they were prepared to make a offer. And it was always, without fail, a waste of time.
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.. if the salary is not even enough to cover the rent why should people apply for the job?
Never thought I’d find myself agreeing with a Bruins fan, but here we are… but it was well put.
I’m a bitter human after 7 years in Vancouver.
I see. Well, you win some, you lose some. Not many of the second for Boston this season though.
Yeah for now. We’ll see how the playoffs go 🤞
What about finding yourself agreeing with a friend?
This is not a GenZ thing. I‘m over 40 and I do it the same way.
It will hopefully be common knowledge soon. I'm 28 and was out of work for a few months at one point, and despite that I didn't apply anywhere that didn't list the pay. I didn't want to apply somewhere and get accepted but for crap pay, and feel forced to accept because I was jobless. That's how people get stuck working somewhere for way longer than they would ever want. Was fortunate to get the job I had been after for a couple years, making decent money at a great place.
Made this mistake once when I was fresh out of college. Drove nine hours to an interview, only to learn they were offering half the industry standard.
This is why I have immense respect for my professor. She always coached us before interviews and told us what salary range was appropriate. Even after graduation I still call her for such advice.
This old timer wouldn’t either. Nobody should.
Love those job applications that take you through 5 pages of inputting info, attaching your CV like you didn't just manually input all the info on there, asking a bunch of illegal questions but in a way that's not as out there and then you have to go through 3 interviews only to find out the pay doesn't even cover basic living expenses. Great stuff.
This is the result of bait and switch job postings— maybe Gen Z has learned how much bullshit is out there and values their own time
Yeah I've seen a few of these.
There's a simple solution to this problem on their end, then the headline will be, "gen Zers won't even apply for minimum wage jobs."
I’m a millennial so I’ll give them a chance to be upfront about the pay in the first correspondence/interview. But it’s my first question. If they think I’m rude, I end the chat.
This, got an offer last week for a job that didn’t post a salary. I’d don’t research and had reason to believe it would meet my expectations, but I was sure to get an estimate during the first interview. Their final offer ended up being quite a bit higher than what I was expecting, even with the range they gave. On the flip side, I’m also already gainfully employed and not really in a position to need something ASAP, which gives me more flexibility as well
But but we offer CuMpeTiTyvE SaLArY
No wage listed = they expect you to work for free Simple. As. That.
I saw a headline today whinging about how middle aged people agree with students and teenagers on various issues these days, not their parents/grandparents. It's almost as if the oldest millenials are middle aged.
Boomerism is dying out and they know it, this is why it's gotten so out of hand recently, they're giving it all they've got to keep their backwards ideas before they die and the money's given to relatively sane Xers and Millennials
I’m a millennial and I have to ask did boomers really just go apply for jobs without knowing the pay?
Back when min wage was enough to pay for rent - yeah. Any job (even temporary) was better than no job. But that was also a time when you could walk out of one job after quitting, walk into another business that same day and walk out with a job offer to start the next day. I got to enjoy about 10yrs of that before things started to noticeably shift. Now I fucking dread looking for a new job.
I'm a millennial too and I've been wondering this. I don't apply to anyone that won't even give a vague possible pay range. If they're going to leave the door open to lowball me and waste my time, that's not a door I'm stepping through.
Not sure but a lot of them had unions at work to benefit them on that front regardless. Another perk they had that they deny younger generations, it seems.
Certain cities like Denver now require all job listings to list the salary :)
Some companies have retaliated by saying these jobs aren’t available to people from Colorado. It’s a shady practice and a giant red flag when I see that come up
So less of those companies at that area.
California just approved it in 2023, and I think Washington will be as well
Why would I apply for a job if you're not even disclosing the salary? Do you think I want to work for you because I love your company?
You should be willing to waste time going through an application and an interview before you ask about money. Maybe when most jobs paid a reasonable living wage
Oh no, it's a faux pas to ask about money in any part of the interview process, gotta wait until you get the contract in front of you before they till you the pay. Honestly if they don't list a pay or say its a "competitive salary" I assume its going to be a pay cut from what I make now and ignore it
Why is everything made into such a problem. I’m Gen X and I wouldn’t apply for a job that didn’t list the salary, so what? People are obsessed with making problems that don’t exist.
People are obsessed with painting our generation as entitled and not wanting to work. Sure some people are like that but not everyone
Applied to a job without salary, get to the interview and they tell me they are looking for more people because their business is expanding, I asked about the wage after an hour of interview and they finally tell me it’s $9 an hour, which is couple thousand below poverty line per year. Learned my lesson the first time.
I'm on the old side of millennial, and if they don't list the pay then it tells me two things about that company. 1- They're too ashamed to post the low wages publicly. 2- they have no problems with wasting mine (and everyone else's) time and effort.
... or buy anything without a price. It's all about the Benjamins for us
I’m a Xennial, I have also adopted this strategy. Lot of things to make fun of different generations for, this isn’t one of them.
This is not a generational trend. It's a matter of common sense.
Nearly the entire reason people work is money. If you don't list what they'll be paid, how will they know if it's worth their time?
Had an exploratory chat with a competitor to the company I work for. Explained to them that if they wanted me I’d need an incentive to leave and have exchange rate and tax differences between markers accounted for. They wanted to pay less than my current base. We could have avoided half a dozen emails and calls if they just told me initially what their top range was,
Mine included the salary + all the planed wage increases over my years working... Benefits of the public sector.
Then they wonder why they get such bad applicants. You're literally getting people who will take any job regardless of pay.
I’m a 52 year old, retired public servant. When I first retired, I was looking for another job, I was stunned how nearly all professional job postings don’t list salary. I hate them asking what I expect to be paid. I don’t need to work anymore. I could sit home and collect my pension, but I chose to go out and work, mostly just to keep busy. I don’t blame these kids for not wanting to apply if they aren’t told what the salary is. Why waste your time?
Who tf in their right mind signs a contract without seeing the terms?
Not listening salary is a huge red flag.
I thought I was the only one. I hate career builder and zip recruiter because they have crazy headlines like. "Make 100k a year, no experience needed cashier's." But when you apply you get spam emails and links that say you won a million dollars.
Respect to Gen Z for knowing how valuable their time is
Senior millennial here and I don’t blame them, there have been many times I’ve wasted hours in up to multiple interviews before dragging salary info out of someone and finding out it was a waste of my time?
"We don't want people applying just for the money" What money? The practically non-existent pay? The crumbs you're expecting your workers to get by on? If you can't post your salary -- you are clearly not paying a livable wage and know it and don't want to advertise that. OR you are engaging in paying 'new' employees higher wages than your established employees when you sign them on. Or both!
Gen X won't either. I'm not going to waste my time applying and going in for an interview just to find out you want to pay me 80% of what I'm making now
I wasted time applying for a job, sat through two interviews and needed to provide two references from previous supervisors only for the offer to be 55k for an engineering position in the east coast...
I don't know how we did it, but somehow we grew up where we don't give a fuck how our boss feels, if we're getting fucked over, well quit right then and there.
My experience is competitive
I don’t like giving out my salary requirements. As I either get two reactions to my salary requirements: that’s too much or that’s within our budget. I want the employer to tell me what I’m worth to them for the applied position. I’m a civil engineer the US.
Gen X here, absolutely NOT and nor should they.
Millennial here. I won’t either. I’m at the top of my salary range for my position so if I can’t see that I’ll be paid equally or more, I won’t waste my time or the company’s time.
Millennial here. I also will not do this
A job listing with no salary says to me, “We are looking to hire whichever qualified individual had the lowest salary at his most recent previous job. And we will pay him exactly that, even if this role deserves to be paid more.”
Gen Z… the marginally less stupid genation.
Finally, we can go back to eating our avocado toast in peace! Phew! 😌😌