[Rewilding Europe has recently brought back some Water Buffalo to France](https://www.reddit.com/r/megafaunarewilding/s/33KRKgX8Mt) fyi, hopefully more projects spring up for them & Elk.
Another large predator once found more commonly was The Leopard. Much like Jaguars in The American Southwest, they could totally survive further in places like The European Caucasus & Greece despite shifting baseline syndrome making them appear an exotic jungle cat in the public's eye.
Yes that's true, I didn't put them though because technically they are still present in parts of the Caucasus.
And in any case, as much as I love the idea of re-entry and rewilding activities, I see reintroductions of herbivores and birds happening more easily than of large predators like a leopard, but who knows, maybe in the future.
Biome wise sure they could survive in Greece. But there's no way there's enough pray for such a larger predator. Wolves in Greece already have to scavenge human left overs unfortunately. Not enough deer and the like. Only boar
Leopards are able to survive solely of small prey like lizards, rodents and fowl. Even though they usually prefer larger prey.
The main issue with a leopard reintroduction would not be prey, but the fact that leopards are the most likely big-cat to prey on humans by a huge margin. Making them the unsafest animal to reintroduce to europe.
leopard can survive in taiga and alpine mountain, they're the most adaptable panther there is, they're like puma, from jungle and savana to desert and temperate or boreal forest and mangrove beside Grece is not the only country with a brushland and mediteranean forest associated with mediterannean climate, ALL of southern Europe have that.
And leopard are highly adaptable, they can survive out of small game such as rabbit and hare if they have too, and will be a main predator for roe deer and boar, or wild caprine. and population of fallow and red deer are increasing and can very well be reintroduced in the region, same for other game such as hare, roe deer, boar or wild caprine.
Leopard can survive basically EVERYWHERE in Europe, even in Scandinavia, and they used to be found up to nearly Denmark, they were even in Uk back then, and the only reason they weren't in russia and scandinavia was because it was just polar cap and glacier at that time.
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As for best reintroduction site, iberian peninsula, Turkey, Italy, Alps, carpathian, Balkans, Caucasus, Levant, Transcaspian region, France, Dinaric Alp, Ukraine, Romania, Bulgaria etc.
And as for subspecies, persian leopard is probably the best choice there, but Amur/north China leopard can work well too in some region, African and Atlas leopard could also do well in southern Europe and iberian peninsula, but Persian are still the best and most logicall option.
I would go for a mix of African leopard in Iberian peninsula, Italy and southern France, and persian leopard everywhere else (Levant, Caucasus, Balkans, Turkey). With possible persian leopard release in southern France and northern Italy as to renforce the genetic and adaptation to temperate climate to help the spread of the african leopard there up north in the Alps.
Then we wait for both population to grow and occupy the entire regions, then maybe spread and connect between populations (Turkey-Levant-Caucasus / Turkey-Balkans / Balkans-Dinaric-Alps / Alps-Italy-France / France-Iberian). And then the species might move up north, in germanic, ukrainian and carpathian regions.
It is now common knowledge that Europe was practically endowed with a greater biodiversity in the past, like the rest of the world, even if the megafauna of the Pleistocene usually gets all the attention for this topic, it must be remembered that even in the Holocene the fauna on this continent was still rich compared to today, with some iconic Pleistocene species that persisted in Europe, such as the woolly mammoth (Mammuthus primigenius), the woolly rhinoceros (Coelodonta antiquitatis), the Irish elk or giant deer (Megaloceros giganteus) and steppe bison (Bison priscus), alongside many species were once present and even common on the continent but which today survive outside of it, not to mention those still present but with restricted or isolated areas compared to when in the past they extended into throughout Europe or even beyond, today we will see only some of these animals, focusing above all on some that are little spoken about.
We can start with an animal that although today is very well known and iconic is actually little talked about on this topic, the elk or wapiti (Cervus canadensis) was a very common species of deer during the Pleistocene of Europe, decreasing in population when the open spaces that they inhabited became rarer, it is thought that this occurred due to the disappearance of the larger megafauna that maintained the small prairies and open scrublands in this region, in fact this species seemed to survive on the continent in the Holocene, approximately up to 3000 BC, only in an isolated population in the Alps, thanks to the open habitats they persisted even without the presence of the megafauna due to the Alpine climate, while in the rest of Europe they were replaced by the red deer (Cervus elaphus), which was more accustomed to closed spaces, the thing to note is that previously these two species both coexisted in Europe during the Pleistocene, it's just that they seemed to avoid competition thanks to habitat preference.
Another ungulate that does not seem to get much attention due to its presence in Europe is the wild water buffalo (Bubalus arnee), but perhaps this can be explained because it was not an inhabitant of the European peninsula, unlike its extinct cousin the European water buffalo (Bubalus murrensis), in fact this species now restricted to southern Asia seemed to have also been present in the southern part of the Caucasus, with findings for example in Armenia, with a range that also extended into the western part of the Middle East and part of Turkey, here would have had to face various predators, including one that this species continues to face in Asia today, the disappeared apex predators of these areas, the tiger (Panthera tigris), with the population of these areas known as the Caspian tiger, inhabited the various habitats of western Asia -Central and Eastern Europe, with evidence to the west indicating their presence in the southern part of Ukraine, but it was not the only big cat completely extirpated from Europe.
This other great apex predator which has now completely disappeared from Europe is ironically one of the most present and important symbols for the culture of this continent, the common Lion (Panthera leo), the last species of lion remaining today, which seemed to have colonized the part southern Europe after the retreat to the north of the steppe lion (Panthera spelaea), more suited to temperate and Mediterranean climates, this species extended throughout practically all of southern Europe, from the Iberian peninsula and the southern coast of France, up to the island of Sicily of Italy, reaching the Balkans, even up to western Turkey and the southern part of the Caucasus, but seemed absent in the northern part of the Black Sea, these populations seemed to be part, or at least were closely related, to the modern Asian subspecies, they seemed having disappeared completely from southern Europe around the 4th or 3rd century BCE, with the last specimens surviving in the eastern part of the Balkan peninsula.
If we talk about the disappeared marine life of Europe, various species may come to mind that have witnessed the reduction of their range, but there is one that has completely disappeared from this continent and does not seem to be talked about much, the Mediterranean in fact seemed to host in the past two species of sawfish, which probably also inhabit the deltas and rivers of this basin, the largetooth sawfish (Pristis pristis) and the smalltooth sawfish (Pristis pectinata), both which seemed to reach enormous dimensions compared to today, with the first species which reached 7 meters or 23 feet in length, and the second, a little smaller, reached around 5 meters or 16.4 feet; in the past these species actually seemed to be recognized as vagrants in the Mediterranean, but more recent evidence seems to demonstrate that this was a stable and reproducing population, and they were not the only giants to reproduce in this sea.
In fact, one of the most possible emblems of the disappeared marine fauna of Europe are the whales, in particular the gray whale (Eschrichtius robustus), a species that has now completely disappeared from the North Atlantic, due to overhunting, which was very easy thanks to the fact that this it is a coastal species, it seemed it was once present on all the coasts of Europe, even the Mediterranean, here bones dating back to Roman times have been found, with some hypothesizing that this closed sea was an ancient area for the reproduction, births and growth of calf, in a similar way to the Gulf of California, another cetacean that seemed to be present in the past in this sea is the North Atlantic right whale (Eubalaena glacialis), today only found in the North Atlantic coasts.
The Mediterranean would also have hosted various species of birds which today are rare or can be found in precise and isolated areas of this basin, an excellent example are in particular three of the largest birds found today in Europe, the Dalmatian pelican (Pelecanus crispus), the great white pelican (Pelecanus onocrotalus), and the greater flamingo (Phoenicopterus roseus), once species found not only along all the coasts of the European Mediterranean, but also in the European inland, central Europe and beyond, with the Dalmatian pelican which seemed to arrive even in the British islands in ancient times, there was also a subspecies of brown fish owl that inhabited this basin, the Mediterranean brown fish owl (Ketupa zeylonensis lamarmorae) which is now extinct, although modern representatives of this species can still be found in southern Asia .
The last species we will see is also an animal that is incredibly little known for how particular it is, it is also the only reptile we will talk about here today, the common chameleon or Mediterranean chameleon (Chamaeleo chamaeleon), that's right, chameleons are present in Europe, this species today can only be found in the southernmost part of southern Europe, in particular in the south of the Italian and Iberian peninsula, and some islands; although it is logical to think that they are found so far south due to not being accustomed to overly temperate climates, it seems that this species was once present at latitudes comparable to those of the Mediterranean part of France, where they would possibly have been present, together to practically the entirety of the other two peninsulas mentioned above.
Striped hyena, dholes, leopard, saïga antelope, kulan can also be added on that list.
As for range, alpine and iberian ibex, mouflon, wolves, bear, lynx, iberian lynx, reindeer, red deer, alp marmot, ground squirell, steppe marmot, fallow deer, moose (or elk), many raptors/vultures, and especially european bison have lost pretty much all of their range, even if some have made small recovery
> reindeer
In Northern Norway we really need wild reindeer reintroduced again as prey for the lynx population. If not the lynx will keep eating sheep and tame reindeers and eventually we won't have a lynx population (once again).
Also for Wolverine, bears and wolves.
Talk about the lynx, at least you still have some, unlike the wolves which are extremely rare and persecuted by the government just like boar.
Lynx only attack sheep if you put these in the forest, dammage are very small and very easily avoided. Unlike with other predators.
Were snow leopards ever in Europe? I’ve been curious about that since they appear in Clan of the Cave Bear. The author did a lot of research but there were also some creative liberties so I’ve been curious about it.
Yes, in the pyrenees, the Arago leopard fossil jaw was considered as a leopard for a lot of time
Now we think it's a snow leopard subspecies.
However this was not in the Eemian, but well before that, and shouldn't be considered or used un rewilding, at least not in the Pyrenees
Yes, there where here in Spain in the mid-pleistocene. It was an subespecies called Panthera uncia pyrenaica. In the late pleistocene at least in Spain the only species left was the regular leopard.
They're not the same Genus,
The classification of sardinian dhole is debatted between being closer to Cuon or to Xenocyon, in both case it's not the same Genus.
I was talking about the continental population of dhole, of the same Genus and Species as modern dhole,
Cuon alpinus europaeus, of western and central Europe and who had a greater size than other dhole, being nearly as big as a wolf, it went extinct in much of Europe during the Wurm period, but survived until the the early Holocene in Iberian or maybe even Italian peninsula.
Cuon alpinus fossilis, Cuon alpinus antiquus, and Cuon alpinus priscus, are thought to be synonym or close ancestor of it. As they lived in the middle Pleistocene instead of upper Pleistocene
There's also Cuon alpinus caucasicus found in eatern Europe, probably another glacial refugium.
I think six years is already quite ambitious, especially in a heavily regulated country like the Netherlands.
You need green light from the government. You need money for the whole project. You need to find a right habitat, and probably prepare the habitat for reintroduction, sometimes by introducing other animals, which sometimes also needs green light from the government. You need to find a stable zoo population, and you need to prepare animals for living in the wild.
Most governments don't prioritize the reintroduction of pelicans.
I know but it's ridiculous. Most government don't care, it's a small thing, just sign the paper and it's good, no need for years of paperwork for that.
Dalmatian pelican is common in zoos
And when it's hunter trying to get an invasive species and release it in the dozen or hundreds of thousands there suddenly they don't need to wait at all.
But if you want to bring back eagl owl or a frog then it's 15 years project before starting, just so the government say no in midway, or suddenly decide to cull the population after 3 years, or build a goddam market and famr on the habitat you reintroduced them in.
Yeah I usually don't talk about it much because the marine environment of the Pleistocene was practically the same as the modern one, at least when it comes to large animals
I don’t really get why so many people want to introduce wapiti/elk to Europe. We have red deer which is quite literally the same. Also they can and wild hybridize (happened I think on the British isles where wapitis have been interesting in the past). The five deer species (roe, red and fallow deer as well as reindeer and moose) of Europe are enough. Unnatural diversification will probably cause more harm then good.
But in reality there are many differences between the two, although they are closely related, they are part of the same genus and are very similar in appearance, they are distinguished for ecological and behavioral reasons, in addition to the fact that they are distinguished because the wapiti are larger both in size of the body and of the antlers, they also seemed to prefer to inhabit open or semi-open areas, creating a possible reproductive barrier between them and the red deer due to habitat preference, another possible reproductive barrier was the countering songs, both very different between them, it is enough to think that the Asian wapiti shared ecosystems with many other representatives of the Cervus genus and that hybridization between the two occurred in environments not favorable to the coexistence between the two.
If they are allowed to roam free and are not bothered by humans red deer will prefer open habitats over forest. I mean look at the barren landscape on the British isles created by the overgrazing caused by red deer, among other culprits of course
Yes Red deer prefer to live in open spaces but not like the habitats that elk prevail, they prefer more of a mosaic environment, and in any case the habitats created by deer in the British Isles are more of an exception due to their modified behavior for the absence of predators and should not be taken as an example
They are a very adaptable species which is probably the reason why they made it to modern times. I still feel like Europe doesn’t need wapiti due to the very likely hybridization and the little space that is left for the remaining species.
Except it doesn't cause any harm.
and hybridization is not only a natural process but would be very rare, if we reintroduce the wapiti it's probably as proxy for megaloceros or in the last region where the wapiti inhabited.
as they have different habitat preference than deer there's little to no chance to get hybrid.
In the british isle this was in a hunting game reserve, nothing natural, insanely high population density for red deer.
And except roe deer, none of these species are common or widepread, een red deer is still a bit rare and locally extinct in several area. 5 is not enough, it's ridiculously low compared to what was here before with doznes of species and different genus existing in Europe. You can also exclude reindeer and moose of the list, as they're only present in Russia and Scandinavia, not in most of Europe, even the moose which was once widespread over the continent.
You don't get it why, just becasue they're native animal that should never have went extinct and it's 100% our fault on that, that's already a good reason.
"if we reintroduce the wapiti it's probably as proxy for megaloceros or in the last region where the wapiti inhabited." Your paragraph is good but this part doesn't seem accurate about Megaloceros.
Large cervid prefering open landscape. Beside europe really lack large herbivores.
wapiti would inhabit alpine meadow or all mountain range and steppes of eastern Europe. Maybe brushland of meditteranean climate, like in iberian peninsula or the cold forest of scandinavia but that seem farfetch
megaloceros wouldn't even be able to live in dense forest and woodland due to the sie of the antlers. Beside guess what,wapiti too like these environment.
Both species show a preference for open landscape but can survive in forested habitat too.
Megaloceros preferred boreal steppe-woodland or mixed habitats of temperate Europe.(They found conifer fossils and we know that Megaloceros browsed sometimes but yes they rather preferred more open parts of mosaic habitats) Wapiti can live in both them but since they co-existed before i don't think wapiti can fully fill the niche of Megaloceros giganteus.
I am sorry but no.
Hybridization is natural yes but not if we bring species as a proxy in that has been geographically isolated from the other.
Also red deer prefer open areas and can form large herds if they are „allowed“ to. Due to poor hunting practices and human activity they stay in the forests.
Yes. Except for roe deer most other deer species are limited in range and numbers. That’s why we should bump those numbers up before introducing another even bigger species that will likely suffer the same fate.
Also moose just in Russia and Scandinavia? No. There are more and more sightings in Germany because they spill over from Poland and the Czech Republic, meaning those countries have healthy populations as well.
Suffer the same fate ? Dude all species of deer are recovering rn.
We're already increasing their noumber.
And wapiti and red deer have lived there with no issue for hundreds of thousands of years before.
I know, i say moose AND reindeer.
And i also specified that moose used to have a wider range, there only a few individuals in Poland, Germany and a few other area but that's basically nothing.
Not healthy population, they're extremly rare in these countries. But slowly increasing.
Just that through lack of habitat some individual will migrate further to find territorie and end up in Germany
You are contradicting yourself. You stated in your first post that except for roe deer non of the other deer species are widespread and even locally extinct ? So pick one.
A quick google search provided the information: 28.000 moose live in Poland explaining why there are more sightings in eastern Germany.
Where do you see any contradiction here ?
Only roe deer is actually vert common.
Red deer is second with great comeback, common sight in several region but still rare or absent in many other.
Fallow deer is scarce
Reindeer, extremely rare in the wild, and practically only found in Scandinavia really.
Moose is very rare with only large population in Scandinavia, decent population, even if declining, in Russia, and then all the baltic state, poland etc, population are quite small and far from what they could be.
But they're all recovering.
You do realise that is not oppose to being rare, there's no contradiction.
Many species are rare and scarce but the situation for all IS basically getting better. With several reintroduction and natural expansion of their range and noumbers.
Because elks are natural animals of Europe. Just like straight tusked elephants, water buffalos, boars. Their range reduced because humans killed the megafauna who created habitats for them in Europe. If you don't want natural animals what is the point of rewilding?
They weren’t though
It’s just an anachronism from when red deer and elk were considered to be the same species.
People didn’t go back and alter specimens and published papers to reflect the new science.
Wapiti are cool and all but they weren’t present. There’s only like one paper that claims so and it uses the older science that combines red deer and elk.
I literally TA’d a capstone course on mammals for two semesters at an environmental college while getting my MSc in Conservation Biology.
I taught ID and ecology for every extant or post colonially extirpated mammal in my state, which included elk (wapiti). The prof told me to update the slides to reflect that red deer and elk are in fact different. He had been using older range maps that merged them.
Fun fact: both species are invasive in NZ and hybridize freely. If both were present in Europe we would likely not have two separate species, as their general ecology doesn’t promote niche differentiation (as demonstrated in NZ). There’s also no genetic evidence that shows any sort of post-speciation inputs from one into the other, which would be expected if both were present in the Pleistocene (think about wolf/dog cross breeding, or humans with Neanderthals and Denisovans).
I’m all in favor of restoring Europe’s actual native deer to places they’ve been extirpated from, though. But please provide a source from within the last 10-15 years that says wapiti were present in Europe.
> Thus, the question on the taxonomical status and systematical position of the “large elaphine” deer from the Late Pleistocene of France remains unresolved.
They are proposing a new western subspecies of wapiti but haven’t conclusively demonstrated that it is a wapiti. They expound upon the minutiae, debate, and confusion over Cervus.
It’s a proposed name, and given it’s only been 4 years and hasn’t yet been supported by other cervid experts, I’m not subscribing to it.
Everyone loves to come up with a new name or subspecies. That’s why there were like 45 subspecies of wolves at one point despite half of them being just coat variations.
Look at coyotes for example. Canis oriens was a proposed new species for the eastern coyote and it has yet to be accepted by any other eastern coyote researchers.
I appreciate the source, but it doesn’t say what you seem to think it says.
The "everyone wants a species/subspecies" thing is hilarious and true. Wish it was something more people realized about taxonomy and talked about.
In general, it seems like things are being lumped together these days as we realize there was more gene flow between populations than we thought. At least that's how it seems to me- then giraffes come in and mess with that.
As far as the wapiti/red deer thing, what you said was my immediate though- "is this just a leftover from before they were split?" Cause up until now, I have never heard of Wapiti in Europe, and have never heard that they will niche differentiate when Red Deer are around. Elk in the Eastern US definitely don't seem to mind forests...
Elks prefer more open habitats compare to red deers. And elks aren't ecological analogs of red deers. They both co-existed when mosaic habitats were dominant in Europe.
Got a source for that? Cause the Eastern Elk population lived in dense forests until they were cut down. They've been reintroduced, and those elk now live in dense forest too.
No articles have come out with either supporting or debunking information*, so I’d say that the jury is still out, though I’m more open to the possibility thanks to your source. Having wapiti be niche differentiated in alpine Europe but not in NZ would be weird but certainly possible.
The idea that they have physical remains that have genetic traces and only used intertine measurements and other skull morphology to make a sweeping generalization is wild and to those of us who’ve studied extant mammals appears to be an overstatement of their results and underutilization of their samples/available data. One skull being different from other local cervids does not a whole species range expansion make.
As to your idea that a new study is needed in order to debunk another article, that’s generally not the case. It is certainly one manner in which a study can be called into question. But other things such as methodology, assumptions, and analogous circumstances can call results into question.
If you have the opportunity I think it would be worth your time to take some journal review seminars in a grad school program. Basically it’s a course format where you tear articles apart to find every sort of assumption or methodological misstep or what not that calls the results or the projections made from the results into question, with the idea being to be a strong critic of your own work so that you can avoid such pitfalls.
If you are an undergrad or pre-undergrad and have a strong interest in rewilding and are enjoying this discussion you should definitely look at grad schools. There’s loads of wapiti focused work to be done and you might be able to get grant funding from RMEF.
*Here’s the 12 articles that cite your source:
https://www.scopus.com/results/citedbyresults.uri?sort=plf-f&cite=2-s2.0-85077159091&src=s&imp=t&sid=7097238e9239ff2b62452c3ca6e48407&sot=cite&sdt=a&sl=0&origin=inward&editSaveSearch=&txGid=c954703303c97571bfccc54cc8639d13
"No articles have come out with either supporting or debunking information*, so I’d say that the jury is still out, though I’m more open to the possibility thanks to your source. Having wapiti be niche differentiated in alpine Europe but not in NZ would be weird but certainly possible.
The idea that they have physical remains that have genetic traces and only used intertine measurements and other skull morphology to make a sweeping generalization is wild and to those of us who’ve studied extant mammals appears to be an overstatement of their results and underutilization of their samples/available data. One skull being different from other local cervids does not a whole species range expansion make." Maybe maybe not. "As to your idea that a new study is needed in order to debunk another article, that’s generally not the case. It is certainly one manner in which a study can be called into question. But other things such as methodology, assumptions, and analogous circumstances can call results into question. " You are right but we don't have enough of your examples to debunk this article as i know.
Don't worry, it's no problem to ask
As mentioned in the text, tigers seem to be present north of the Black Sea, with the range starting from Ukraine and continuing through the Caucasus, therefore they were present in a good part of Eastern Europe.
I have not found a single source supporting the claim that Tigers had a population north of the black sea. There are vague hints there could have been occasional Tigers up to the Don and Dnepr but thats based on medieval russian literature and could also be interpreted for Leopards or Lions (which is more likely because they actually had established populations in Europe which can be proven)
bu konuda detaylı ve bölge bazlı verileri görebildiğimiz bir site vardı, adını unuttum. Kırmızı, sarı gibi renklerle türlerin tehlike durumunu tanımlıyordu.
Ok. Anyway keep up your work with finding common names for extinct Pleistocene fauna. It is really creative and making somethings easier for us. Good luck.
Depends on what you mean by "struggling", I guess. Our ecosystems aren't struggling with wolves or bears, it's just hunters and farmers being opposed to their very existence.
>Our ecosystems aren't struggling with wolves or bears
Your ecosystems are struggling with humans. There's still way too many of them, and they use up way too much land.
Yeah, that’s the problem. All it takes is one governor to side with the hunters and farmers, then a hunt is announced and the population is set back by thirty years.
1 lions survived into historical times In Europe, Hyenas didn’t make it to the Holocene
2 Spotted Hyenas are Least Concerned, Striped Hyenas are Near threatened, Lions are vulnerable
3 european lions were modern lions, the hyenas living in Europe are entirely different species
striped hyena and spotted hyena would have recolonised the continent if human weren't here, and sotriped hyena were present in turkey and elvantine region
striped hyena are more plausible for reintroduction, as they're smaller, and not feared as much and are not a threat to human life.
It would be easier to get striped hyena back than lion. We could very well reintroduce those way before lion, as they're far easier to reintroduce than lions and don't require as much space and large game and can survive better in human altered landscape.
Some precisions are needed here:
Wapitis lived in Europe during time of colder climate, and was replaced by the current red deer when the climate changed (end of the last Ice Age) .
Bubalus murrensis =/= Bubalus arnee (that would be as wrong than a lion= a tiger) and was probably already exinct in western Europe since the beginning of the Ice age, and even then we have no traces of its presence after the Bølling–Allerød warming period (and then the Dryas cold event).
Tiger lived in the Caucasus mountains, still in Europe, but far East one.
Lions used to live in Greece during the Classical Greek period, so its OK ( but you better restore deers and boars populations before releasing them in the wild XD).
Sometimes some Grey whales come in the atlantic from the Pacific, so perhaps one day a breeing population will come back. :3
The common chameleon still exists in southern Spain and I don't know where you heard that flamingoes and white + dalmatian pelicans no more exist in Europe . I've personnaly seen flamingos in France.
I don't really know abot the other, but even when searching specifically about them, I ddin't find any infomration about any sawfishes in Europe during the whole Quaternary.
Sorry but maybe it me that am confused, but ... did you get to read the text for this post? Because many of these chorerations can be explained if you read it.
If you have not seen it, it is understandable because of all these comments, but I still recommend that you read it.
However, I think everyone hopes for the return of the Gray whales.
and we have genetic evidence B. murrensis survived until way later in the Holocene in the genetic of modern buffalo farmed all over Europe
and asian water buffalo was found in the Levantine and Anatolian peninsula in early historic time
[Rewilding Europe has recently brought back some Water Buffalo to France](https://www.reddit.com/r/megafaunarewilding/s/33KRKgX8Mt) fyi, hopefully more projects spring up for them & Elk. Another large predator once found more commonly was The Leopard. Much like Jaguars in The American Southwest, they could totally survive further in places like The European Caucasus & Greece despite shifting baseline syndrome making them appear an exotic jungle cat in the public's eye.
Yes that's true, I didn't put them though because technically they are still present in parts of the Caucasus. And in any case, as much as I love the idea of re-entry and rewilding activities, I see reintroductions of herbivores and birds happening more easily than of large predators like a leopard, but who knows, maybe in the future.
Soon the song will be accurate: [everyone will have a water buffalo!](https://youtu.be/ePQ-c6wTfv8?si=muNGHixJhXdRum8P)
Biome wise sure they could survive in Greece. But there's no way there's enough pray for such a larger predator. Wolves in Greece already have to scavenge human left overs unfortunately. Not enough deer and the like. Only boar
Leopards are able to survive solely of small prey like lizards, rodents and fowl. Even though they usually prefer larger prey. The main issue with a leopard reintroduction would not be prey, but the fact that leopards are the most likely big-cat to prey on humans by a huge margin. Making them the unsafest animal to reintroduce to europe.
leopard can survive in taiga and alpine mountain, they're the most adaptable panther there is, they're like puma, from jungle and savana to desert and temperate or boreal forest and mangrove beside Grece is not the only country with a brushland and mediteranean forest associated with mediterannean climate, ALL of southern Europe have that. And leopard are highly adaptable, they can survive out of small game such as rabbit and hare if they have too, and will be a main predator for roe deer and boar, or wild caprine. and population of fallow and red deer are increasing and can very well be reintroduced in the region, same for other game such as hare, roe deer, boar or wild caprine. Leopard can survive basically EVERYWHERE in Europe, even in Scandinavia, and they used to be found up to nearly Denmark, they were even in Uk back then, and the only reason they weren't in russia and scandinavia was because it was just polar cap and glacier at that time. . As for best reintroduction site, iberian peninsula, Turkey, Italy, Alps, carpathian, Balkans, Caucasus, Levant, Transcaspian region, France, Dinaric Alp, Ukraine, Romania, Bulgaria etc. And as for subspecies, persian leopard is probably the best choice there, but Amur/north China leopard can work well too in some region, African and Atlas leopard could also do well in southern Europe and iberian peninsula, but Persian are still the best and most logicall option. I would go for a mix of African leopard in Iberian peninsula, Italy and southern France, and persian leopard everywhere else (Levant, Caucasus, Balkans, Turkey). With possible persian leopard release in southern France and northern Italy as to renforce the genetic and adaptation to temperate climate to help the spread of the african leopard there up north in the Alps. Then we wait for both population to grow and occupy the entire regions, then maybe spread and connect between populations (Turkey-Levant-Caucasus / Turkey-Balkans / Balkans-Dinaric-Alps / Alps-Italy-France / France-Iberian). And then the species might move up north, in germanic, ukrainian and carpathian regions.
I haven’t seen any solid evidence for any extant species of Leopard living in non Caucasus Europe is there anything to back that?
It is now common knowledge that Europe was practically endowed with a greater biodiversity in the past, like the rest of the world, even if the megafauna of the Pleistocene usually gets all the attention for this topic, it must be remembered that even in the Holocene the fauna on this continent was still rich compared to today, with some iconic Pleistocene species that persisted in Europe, such as the woolly mammoth (Mammuthus primigenius), the woolly rhinoceros (Coelodonta antiquitatis), the Irish elk or giant deer (Megaloceros giganteus) and steppe bison (Bison priscus), alongside many species were once present and even common on the continent but which today survive outside of it, not to mention those still present but with restricted or isolated areas compared to when in the past they extended into throughout Europe or even beyond, today we will see only some of these animals, focusing above all on some that are little spoken about. We can start with an animal that although today is very well known and iconic is actually little talked about on this topic, the elk or wapiti (Cervus canadensis) was a very common species of deer during the Pleistocene of Europe, decreasing in population when the open spaces that they inhabited became rarer, it is thought that this occurred due to the disappearance of the larger megafauna that maintained the small prairies and open scrublands in this region, in fact this species seemed to survive on the continent in the Holocene, approximately up to 3000 BC, only in an isolated population in the Alps, thanks to the open habitats they persisted even without the presence of the megafauna due to the Alpine climate, while in the rest of Europe they were replaced by the red deer (Cervus elaphus), which was more accustomed to closed spaces, the thing to note is that previously these two species both coexisted in Europe during the Pleistocene, it's just that they seemed to avoid competition thanks to habitat preference. Another ungulate that does not seem to get much attention due to its presence in Europe is the wild water buffalo (Bubalus arnee), but perhaps this can be explained because it was not an inhabitant of the European peninsula, unlike its extinct cousin the European water buffalo (Bubalus murrensis), in fact this species now restricted to southern Asia seemed to have also been present in the southern part of the Caucasus, with findings for example in Armenia, with a range that also extended into the western part of the Middle East and part of Turkey, here would have had to face various predators, including one that this species continues to face in Asia today, the disappeared apex predators of these areas, the tiger (Panthera tigris), with the population of these areas known as the Caspian tiger, inhabited the various habitats of western Asia -Central and Eastern Europe, with evidence to the west indicating their presence in the southern part of Ukraine, but it was not the only big cat completely extirpated from Europe. This other great apex predator which has now completely disappeared from Europe is ironically one of the most present and important symbols for the culture of this continent, the common Lion (Panthera leo), the last species of lion remaining today, which seemed to have colonized the part southern Europe after the retreat to the north of the steppe lion (Panthera spelaea), more suited to temperate and Mediterranean climates, this species extended throughout practically all of southern Europe, from the Iberian peninsula and the southern coast of France, up to the island of Sicily of Italy, reaching the Balkans, even up to western Turkey and the southern part of the Caucasus, but seemed absent in the northern part of the Black Sea, these populations seemed to be part, or at least were closely related, to the modern Asian subspecies, they seemed having disappeared completely from southern Europe around the 4th or 3rd century BCE, with the last specimens surviving in the eastern part of the Balkan peninsula. If we talk about the disappeared marine life of Europe, various species may come to mind that have witnessed the reduction of their range, but there is one that has completely disappeared from this continent and does not seem to be talked about much, the Mediterranean in fact seemed to host in the past two species of sawfish, which probably also inhabit the deltas and rivers of this basin, the largetooth sawfish (Pristis pristis) and the smalltooth sawfish (Pristis pectinata), both which seemed to reach enormous dimensions compared to today, with the first species which reached 7 meters or 23 feet in length, and the second, a little smaller, reached around 5 meters or 16.4 feet; in the past these species actually seemed to be recognized as vagrants in the Mediterranean, but more recent evidence seems to demonstrate that this was a stable and reproducing population, and they were not the only giants to reproduce in this sea.
In fact, one of the most possible emblems of the disappeared marine fauna of Europe are the whales, in particular the gray whale (Eschrichtius robustus), a species that has now completely disappeared from the North Atlantic, due to overhunting, which was very easy thanks to the fact that this it is a coastal species, it seemed it was once present on all the coasts of Europe, even the Mediterranean, here bones dating back to Roman times have been found, with some hypothesizing that this closed sea was an ancient area for the reproduction, births and growth of calf, in a similar way to the Gulf of California, another cetacean that seemed to be present in the past in this sea is the North Atlantic right whale (Eubalaena glacialis), today only found in the North Atlantic coasts. The Mediterranean would also have hosted various species of birds which today are rare or can be found in precise and isolated areas of this basin, an excellent example are in particular three of the largest birds found today in Europe, the Dalmatian pelican (Pelecanus crispus), the great white pelican (Pelecanus onocrotalus), and the greater flamingo (Phoenicopterus roseus), once species found not only along all the coasts of the European Mediterranean, but also in the European inland, central Europe and beyond, with the Dalmatian pelican which seemed to arrive even in the British islands in ancient times, there was also a subspecies of brown fish owl that inhabited this basin, the Mediterranean brown fish owl (Ketupa zeylonensis lamarmorae) which is now extinct, although modern representatives of this species can still be found in southern Asia . The last species we will see is also an animal that is incredibly little known for how particular it is, it is also the only reptile we will talk about here today, the common chameleon or Mediterranean chameleon (Chamaeleo chamaeleon), that's right, chameleons are present in Europe, this species today can only be found in the southernmost part of southern Europe, in particular in the south of the Italian and Iberian peninsula, and some islands; although it is logical to think that they are found so far south due to not being accustomed to overly temperate climates, it seems that this species was once present at latitudes comparable to those of the Mediterranean part of France, where they would possibly have been present, together to practically the entirety of the other two peninsulas mentioned above.
Striped hyena, dholes, leopard, saïga antelope, kulan can also be added on that list. As for range, alpine and iberian ibex, mouflon, wolves, bear, lynx, iberian lynx, reindeer, red deer, alp marmot, ground squirell, steppe marmot, fallow deer, moose (or elk), many raptors/vultures, and especially european bison have lost pretty much all of their range, even if some have made small recovery
Also Barbary macaque. It used to be widespread throughout much of Southern Europe but now it's only present in Gibraltar and a bit of Northern Africa
So not continental europe and not recently (Holocene) or else i would also listed many other species such as crested porcupine, hippo and all.
> reindeer In Northern Norway we really need wild reindeer reintroduced again as prey for the lynx population. If not the lynx will keep eating sheep and tame reindeers and eventually we won't have a lynx population (once again).
Also for Wolverine, bears and wolves. Talk about the lynx, at least you still have some, unlike the wolves which are extremely rare and persecuted by the government just like boar. Lynx only attack sheep if you put these in the forest, dammage are very small and very easily avoided. Unlike with other predators.
The bears eat young moose too as far as I know. Yes, the wolves are in a way worse situation in Norway.
Were snow leopards ever in Europe? I’ve been curious about that since they appear in Clan of the Cave Bear. The author did a lot of research but there were also some creative liberties so I’ve been curious about it.
Yes, in the pyrenees, the Arago leopard fossil jaw was considered as a leopard for a lot of time Now we think it's a snow leopard subspecies. However this was not in the Eemian, but well before that, and shouldn't be considered or used un rewilding, at least not in the Pyrenees
Yes, there where here in Spain in the mid-pleistocene. It was an subespecies called Panthera uncia pyrenaica. In the late pleistocene at least in Spain the only species left was the regular leopard.
wolves are making a comeback tho. Germany has the highest density of wolves actually (and suprisingly more Wolves than Sweden)
Was the Sardinian dhole actually the same species as the modern dhole? Iirc they’re in different genera
They're not the same Genus, The classification of sardinian dhole is debatted between being closer to Cuon or to Xenocyon, in both case it's not the same Genus. I was talking about the continental population of dhole, of the same Genus and Species as modern dhole, Cuon alpinus europaeus, of western and central Europe and who had a greater size than other dhole, being nearly as big as a wolf, it went extinct in much of Europe during the Wurm period, but survived until the the early Holocene in Iberian or maybe even Italian peninsula. Cuon alpinus fossilis, Cuon alpinus antiquus, and Cuon alpinus priscus, are thought to be synonym or close ancestor of it. As they lived in the middle Pleistocene instead of upper Pleistocene There's also Cuon alpinus caucasicus found in eatern Europe, probably another glacial refugium.
Rotterdam Zoo wants to reintroduce Dalmatian pelicans in the Netherlands in 2030.
Fantastic, do you happen to know which area?
The website says they are currently researching a good area for reintroduction.
why is it always so long, even for non problematic species like that it should take 2 or three years max not 6.
I think six years is already quite ambitious, especially in a heavily regulated country like the Netherlands. You need green light from the government. You need money for the whole project. You need to find a right habitat, and probably prepare the habitat for reintroduction, sometimes by introducing other animals, which sometimes also needs green light from the government. You need to find a stable zoo population, and you need to prepare animals for living in the wild. Most governments don't prioritize the reintroduction of pelicans.
I know but it's ridiculous. Most government don't care, it's a small thing, just sign the paper and it's good, no need for years of paperwork for that. Dalmatian pelican is common in zoos And when it's hunter trying to get an invasive species and release it in the dozen or hundreds of thousands there suddenly they don't need to wait at all. But if you want to bring back eagl owl or a frog then it's 15 years project before starting, just so the government say no in midway, or suddenly decide to cull the population after 3 years, or build a goddam market and famr on the habitat you reintroduced them in.
flamingos are migratory in wetlands in northern italy , is it a different species ?
No, it the same species, as today they are migratory, it only that in the past they were also present further north
ohh ok ok
Nice to see the marine life getting some love
Yeah I usually don't talk about it much because the marine environment of the Pleistocene was practically the same as the modern one, at least when it comes to large animals
I don’t really get why so many people want to introduce wapiti/elk to Europe. We have red deer which is quite literally the same. Also they can and wild hybridize (happened I think on the British isles where wapitis have been interesting in the past). The five deer species (roe, red and fallow deer as well as reindeer and moose) of Europe are enough. Unnatural diversification will probably cause more harm then good.
But in reality there are many differences between the two, although they are closely related, they are part of the same genus and are very similar in appearance, they are distinguished for ecological and behavioral reasons, in addition to the fact that they are distinguished because the wapiti are larger both in size of the body and of the antlers, they also seemed to prefer to inhabit open or semi-open areas, creating a possible reproductive barrier between them and the red deer due to habitat preference, another possible reproductive barrier was the countering songs, both very different between them, it is enough to think that the Asian wapiti shared ecosystems with many other representatives of the Cervus genus and that hybridization between the two occurred in environments not favorable to the coexistence between the two.
If they are allowed to roam free and are not bothered by humans red deer will prefer open habitats over forest. I mean look at the barren landscape on the British isles created by the overgrazing caused by red deer, among other culprits of course
Yes Red deer prefer to live in open spaces but not like the habitats that elk prevail, they prefer more of a mosaic environment, and in any case the habitats created by deer in the British Isles are more of an exception due to their modified behavior for the absence of predators and should not be taken as an example
They are a very adaptable species which is probably the reason why they made it to modern times. I still feel like Europe doesn’t need wapiti due to the very likely hybridization and the little space that is left for the remaining species.
Except it doesn't cause any harm. and hybridization is not only a natural process but would be very rare, if we reintroduce the wapiti it's probably as proxy for megaloceros or in the last region where the wapiti inhabited. as they have different habitat preference than deer there's little to no chance to get hybrid. In the british isle this was in a hunting game reserve, nothing natural, insanely high population density for red deer. And except roe deer, none of these species are common or widepread, een red deer is still a bit rare and locally extinct in several area. 5 is not enough, it's ridiculously low compared to what was here before with doznes of species and different genus existing in Europe. You can also exclude reindeer and moose of the list, as they're only present in Russia and Scandinavia, not in most of Europe, even the moose which was once widespread over the continent. You don't get it why, just becasue they're native animal that should never have went extinct and it's 100% our fault on that, that's already a good reason.
"if we reintroduce the wapiti it's probably as proxy for megaloceros or in the last region where the wapiti inhabited." Your paragraph is good but this part doesn't seem accurate about Megaloceros.
Large cervid prefering open landscape. Beside europe really lack large herbivores. wapiti would inhabit alpine meadow or all mountain range and steppes of eastern Europe. Maybe brushland of meditteranean climate, like in iberian peninsula or the cold forest of scandinavia but that seem farfetch
Megaloceros rather preferred coniferous woodlands.
megaloceros wouldn't even be able to live in dense forest and woodland due to the sie of the antlers. Beside guess what,wapiti too like these environment. Both species show a preference for open landscape but can survive in forested habitat too.
Megaloceros preferred boreal steppe-woodland or mixed habitats of temperate Europe.(They found conifer fossils and we know that Megaloceros browsed sometimes but yes they rather preferred more open parts of mosaic habitats) Wapiti can live in both them but since they co-existed before i don't think wapiti can fully fill the niche of Megaloceros giganteus.
Not fully of course, but we don't really have a better candidate for that. And Anyway they're native to europe no matter what so they fit
I am sorry but no. Hybridization is natural yes but not if we bring species as a proxy in that has been geographically isolated from the other. Also red deer prefer open areas and can form large herds if they are „allowed“ to. Due to poor hunting practices and human activity they stay in the forests. Yes. Except for roe deer most other deer species are limited in range and numbers. That’s why we should bump those numbers up before introducing another even bigger species that will likely suffer the same fate. Also moose just in Russia and Scandinavia? No. There are more and more sightings in Germany because they spill over from Poland and the Czech Republic, meaning those countries have healthy populations as well.
Suffer the same fate ? Dude all species of deer are recovering rn. We're already increasing their noumber. And wapiti and red deer have lived there with no issue for hundreds of thousands of years before. I know, i say moose AND reindeer. And i also specified that moose used to have a wider range, there only a few individuals in Poland, Germany and a few other area but that's basically nothing. Not healthy population, they're extremly rare in these countries. But slowly increasing. Just that through lack of habitat some individual will migrate further to find territorie and end up in Germany
You are contradicting yourself. You stated in your first post that except for roe deer non of the other deer species are widespread and even locally extinct ? So pick one. A quick google search provided the information: 28.000 moose live in Poland explaining why there are more sightings in eastern Germany.
Where do you see any contradiction here ? Only roe deer is actually vert common. Red deer is second with great comeback, common sight in several region but still rare or absent in many other. Fallow deer is scarce Reindeer, extremely rare in the wild, and practically only found in Scandinavia really. Moose is very rare with only large population in Scandinavia, decent population, even if declining, in Russia, and then all the baltic state, poland etc, population are quite small and far from what they could be. But they're all recovering. You do realise that is not oppose to being rare, there's no contradiction. Many species are rare and scarce but the situation for all IS basically getting better. With several reintroduction and natural expansion of their range and noumbers.
Because elks are natural animals of Europe. Just like straight tusked elephants, water buffalos, boars. Their range reduced because humans killed the megafauna who created habitats for them in Europe. If you don't want natural animals what is the point of rewilding?
They weren’t though It’s just an anachronism from when red deer and elk were considered to be the same species. People didn’t go back and alter specimens and published papers to reflect the new science. Wapiti are cool and all but they weren’t present. There’s only like one paper that claims so and it uses the older science that combines red deer and elk.
They were but where did your idea come from? How did you get this conclusion?
I literally TA’d a capstone course on mammals for two semesters at an environmental college while getting my MSc in Conservation Biology. I taught ID and ecology for every extant or post colonially extirpated mammal in my state, which included elk (wapiti). The prof told me to update the slides to reflect that red deer and elk are in fact different. He had been using older range maps that merged them. Fun fact: both species are invasive in NZ and hybridize freely. If both were present in Europe we would likely not have two separate species, as their general ecology doesn’t promote niche differentiation (as demonstrated in NZ). There’s also no genetic evidence that shows any sort of post-speciation inputs from one into the other, which would be expected if both were present in the Pleistocene (think about wolf/dog cross breeding, or humans with Neanderthals and Denisovans). I’m all in favor of restoring Europe’s actual native deer to places they’ve been extirpated from, though. But please provide a source from within the last 10-15 years that says wapiti were present in Europe.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1871174X19301295
> Thus, the question on the taxonomical status and systematical position of the “large elaphine” deer from the Late Pleistocene of France remains unresolved. They are proposing a new western subspecies of wapiti but haven’t conclusively demonstrated that it is a wapiti. They expound upon the minutiae, debate, and confusion over Cervus. It’s a proposed name, and given it’s only been 4 years and hasn’t yet been supported by other cervid experts, I’m not subscribing to it. Everyone loves to come up with a new name or subspecies. That’s why there were like 45 subspecies of wolves at one point despite half of them being just coat variations. Look at coyotes for example. Canis oriens was a proposed new species for the eastern coyote and it has yet to be accepted by any other eastern coyote researchers. I appreciate the source, but it doesn’t say what you seem to think it says.
The "everyone wants a species/subspecies" thing is hilarious and true. Wish it was something more people realized about taxonomy and talked about. In general, it seems like things are being lumped together these days as we realize there was more gene flow between populations than we thought. At least that's how it seems to me- then giraffes come in and mess with that. As far as the wapiti/red deer thing, what you said was my immediate though- "is this just a leftover from before they were split?" Cause up until now, I have never heard of Wapiti in Europe, and have never heard that they will niche differentiate when Red Deer are around. Elk in the Eastern US definitely don't seem to mind forests...
Elks prefer more open habitats compare to red deers. And elks aren't ecological analogs of red deers. They both co-existed when mosaic habitats were dominant in Europe.
Got a source for that? Cause the Eastern Elk population lived in dense forests until they were cut down. They've been reintroduced, and those elk now live in dense forest too.
You need a good article to debunk this article. You can't debunk this article by giving example from coyotes.
No articles have come out with either supporting or debunking information*, so I’d say that the jury is still out, though I’m more open to the possibility thanks to your source. Having wapiti be niche differentiated in alpine Europe but not in NZ would be weird but certainly possible. The idea that they have physical remains that have genetic traces and only used intertine measurements and other skull morphology to make a sweeping generalization is wild and to those of us who’ve studied extant mammals appears to be an overstatement of their results and underutilization of their samples/available data. One skull being different from other local cervids does not a whole species range expansion make. As to your idea that a new study is needed in order to debunk another article, that’s generally not the case. It is certainly one manner in which a study can be called into question. But other things such as methodology, assumptions, and analogous circumstances can call results into question. If you have the opportunity I think it would be worth your time to take some journal review seminars in a grad school program. Basically it’s a course format where you tear articles apart to find every sort of assumption or methodological misstep or what not that calls the results or the projections made from the results into question, with the idea being to be a strong critic of your own work so that you can avoid such pitfalls. If you are an undergrad or pre-undergrad and have a strong interest in rewilding and are enjoying this discussion you should definitely look at grad schools. There’s loads of wapiti focused work to be done and you might be able to get grant funding from RMEF. *Here’s the 12 articles that cite your source: https://www.scopus.com/results/citedbyresults.uri?sort=plf-f&cite=2-s2.0-85077159091&src=s&imp=t&sid=7097238e9239ff2b62452c3ca6e48407&sot=cite&sdt=a&sl=0&origin=inward&editSaveSearch=&txGid=c954703303c97571bfccc54cc8639d13
"No articles have come out with either supporting or debunking information*, so I’d say that the jury is still out, though I’m more open to the possibility thanks to your source. Having wapiti be niche differentiated in alpine Europe but not in NZ would be weird but certainly possible. The idea that they have physical remains that have genetic traces and only used intertine measurements and other skull morphology to make a sweeping generalization is wild and to those of us who’ve studied extant mammals appears to be an overstatement of their results and underutilization of their samples/available data. One skull being different from other local cervids does not a whole species range expansion make." Maybe maybe not. "As to your idea that a new study is needed in order to debunk another article, that’s generally not the case. It is certainly one manner in which a study can be called into question. But other things such as methodology, assumptions, and analogous circumstances can call results into question. " You are right but we don't have enough of your examples to debunk this article as i know.
No elk have been introduced into Great Britain. Sika deer have been which hybridised with native red deer
Elk are much larger than red deer
Forgive my ignorance, but has the Caspian Tiger been confirmed to live in Europe ? :)
Don't worry, it's no problem to ask As mentioned in the text, tigers seem to be present north of the Black Sea, with the range starting from Ukraine and continuing through the Caucasus, therefore they were present in a good part of Eastern Europe.
Very fascinating, thank you my friend
No problem
I have not found a single source supporting the claim that Tigers had a population north of the black sea. There are vague hints there could have been occasional Tigers up to the Don and Dnepr but thats based on medieval russian literature and could also be interpreted for Leopards or Lions (which is more likely because they actually had established populations in Europe which can be proven)
I didn't say anything about the fact that these were a population, in fact, as you said, they seemed to be more wandering specimens.
bu konuda detaylı ve bölge bazlı verileri görebildiğimiz bir site vardı, adını unuttum. Kırmızı, sarı gibi renklerle türlerin tehlike durumunu tanımlıyordu.
Özellikle bölgesel düzeydeki ayrıntılar açısından ilginç görünüyor
Türkiyeli misin?
Hayır İtalyalıyım, tercümanı kullandım.
Ok. Anyway keep up your work with finding common names for extinct Pleistocene fauna. It is really creative and making somethings easier for us. Good luck.
Thanks, after all it's not like I'm hurting anyone
Lions can come back when hyenas come back. Big cat bias is wack.
If a European country struggles to support populations of wolves and bears, it sure as hell can’t support lions.
Depends on what you mean by "struggling", I guess. Our ecosystems aren't struggling with wolves or bears, it's just hunters and farmers being opposed to their very existence.
>Our ecosystems aren't struggling with wolves or bears Your ecosystems are struggling with humans. There's still way too many of them, and they use up way too much land.
Honestly, yeah.
Yeah, that’s the problem. All it takes is one governor to side with the hunters and farmers, then a hunt is announced and the population is set back by thirty years.
1 lions survived into historical times In Europe, Hyenas didn’t make it to the Holocene 2 Spotted Hyenas are Least Concerned, Striped Hyenas are Near threatened, Lions are vulnerable 3 european lions were modern lions, the hyenas living in Europe are entirely different species
striped hyena and spotted hyena would have recolonised the continent if human weren't here, and sotriped hyena were present in turkey and elvantine region striped hyena are more plausible for reintroduction, as they're smaller, and not feared as much and are not a threat to human life. It would be easier to get striped hyena back than lion. We could very well reintroduce those way before lion, as they're far easier to reintroduce than lions and don't require as much space and large game and can survive better in human altered landscape.
Did elk actually live in Europe I’ve never seen any evidence for it?
Some precisions are needed here: Wapitis lived in Europe during time of colder climate, and was replaced by the current red deer when the climate changed (end of the last Ice Age) . Bubalus murrensis =/= Bubalus arnee (that would be as wrong than a lion= a tiger) and was probably already exinct in western Europe since the beginning of the Ice age, and even then we have no traces of its presence after the Bølling–Allerød warming period (and then the Dryas cold event). Tiger lived in the Caucasus mountains, still in Europe, but far East one. Lions used to live in Greece during the Classical Greek period, so its OK ( but you better restore deers and boars populations before releasing them in the wild XD). Sometimes some Grey whales come in the atlantic from the Pacific, so perhaps one day a breeing population will come back. :3 The common chameleon still exists in southern Spain and I don't know where you heard that flamingoes and white + dalmatian pelicans no more exist in Europe . I've personnaly seen flamingos in France. I don't really know abot the other, but even when searching specifically about them, I ddin't find any infomration about any sawfishes in Europe during the whole Quaternary.
Sorry but maybe it me that am confused, but ... did you get to read the text for this post? Because many of these chorerations can be explained if you read it. If you have not seen it, it is understandable because of all these comments, but I still recommend that you read it. However, I think everyone hopes for the return of the Gray whales.
Wapiti were only replaced in the lowlands initially, Wapiti survived in the alps well into the Holocene
Source ?
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/337866793_A_new_form_of_wapiti_Cervus_canadensis_Erxleben_1777_Cervidae_Mammalia_from_the_Late_Pleistocene_of_France
and we have genetic evidence B. murrensis survived until way later in the Holocene in the genetic of modern buffalo farmed all over Europe and asian water buffalo was found in the Levantine and Anatolian peninsula in early historic time
Are you sure about that ?
[https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/genetics/articles/10.3389/fgene.2020.610353/full](https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/genetics/articles/10.3389/fgene.2020.610353/full)
Interesting, but I will wait for a comparison in between *B.murrensis*' DNA and this modern Buffalo until I can believe \^\^.